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#58345 06/10/10 01:22 AM
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Hello all! I am new to inliners and so far have really enjoyed reading all the posts from other member; there are very wise and experienced builders here! My current project is a '71 Nova which will have a turbo'd chevy straight six as the heart of the classic. My Nova will be a hot street/strip application run on pump gas (91 octane) for street cruisin, and race fuel for when we pump up the boost for occasional visits to the strip (to see what she's capable of)! I have three main questions that would be great if they were answered, and could give me direction and a goal to where we're headed in our exciting project!

1.) The current debate of my dad and I is which motor to build (either the proven 292 or the Vortec 4200). There's no replacement for displacement (obviously the 292 reigns champion here) but the Vortec 4200 has 20 yrs worth of newer technologies and efficiencies (all aluminum block & head, DOHC, 4 valves per cyclinder, SEFI, VVT, 12 port crossflow head, etc). My dad (mobile mechanic for over 25 yrs) has heard of head issues with the Vortec 4200, and hasn't that motor apart to see how it functions; obviously this is his main area of concern (pistons breaking valves I believe). The main area of concern for the 292 that both of us found was the extensive machining and engine mods that must be done to get it ready for power (Leo's Power Manual). Any insight/advice/recommendations on which motor would be the best to build, a powerful and reliable motor is desired (obviously lol). I was wondering what a round abouts cost estimate would be to prep and machine the 292 for a turbo'd application?

2.) As we all know, inline six performance parts are somewhat limited and quite expensive...any round about cost estimates for what I could expect to spend on the motor (either 292 or Vortec 4200)? The machining and engine prep work for the 292 has ben concerned!

3.) What kind of power could I expect to make from these motors? When we first decided to build a turbo'd six instead of the countless SB and BB chevy's out there I was hoping for ~300-350+HP and ~350-400+TQ. After hours of reading and researching others' builds and potential power outputs of these motors, my excitement (and expectations) grew! What kind of HP and TQ numbers could an application like mine put out to the wheels? If I could make ~400-500+HP and ~500-600TQ I'd be happier than when my dad first gave me the car!!!

I realize these questions have countless variables associated with them, however I just looking for quality advice/insight/recommendations for the build. Any info related to the 3 main questions would be appreciated more than you know! I think its awesome that inliner builders are so willing to share what they've learned over the years and all their secrets! My dad met the owner of the dragster on the cover of Leo's Power Manual and he gave all kinds of insight and info to my dad, I wish I was with him that weekend! Anyways, thanks for your help!


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Not much of a choice: 1950 technology (wedge chamber, siamese port, long stroke, cast-iron) vs. 1990 technology.

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Panic's response brings up an interesting and obvious question: Why did GM, knowing better in the 1960s, design and manufacture a brand-new series of six-cylinder, inline engines in the way that they did?

Why, in particular, did GM continue to manufacture heads with siamese ports in a new series? This is not just "1950s" technology, but 1910s! The rest of it could be chalked up to "economy" and an emphasis on low- and mid-range torque for hauling loads, but the siamese ports, in 1963, make no sense to me.

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If you are not afraid of the electronics I think the 4200 is the better choice. But I've never run a 4200 so I really don't know.

I've always thought the inline 5 Colorado engine was kind of neat. Lighter weight, move the CG back, shorter so your accessory drives are easier to fit.

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If you're looking for hp in the 300's, go with the 4200. It made 290 stock, you won't need to do anything but free up the intake and exhaust. My only beef with these engines is they're kind of ugly as it's hard to hide all the electronics.

If you spend the time&money to get the 4200 running now, you'll be able to upgrade a lot more later. I think this is the better investment in the long run.


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yep, doesn't make sense to me either! Ford got it right though with there 300ci I6, too bad Chevy didn't take their flow rate and head design as serious as Ford...boo! lol


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Well my Nova came with the Chevy 250ci stock (which is what's in it right now) and I was hoping to get HP in the 300's with it. But I figured if we're gunna build a mean six, get either the 292 or the 4200 because of increased displacement and technology/efficiency upgrades. I'm ok with throwing the checkbook at it (Marine Corps pays me twice a month! lol) so that's not so much the issue here. I'm basically looking to make as much TQ and HP as possible to be run on mostly 91 Octane for the street.


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I forgot to mention this in my first post, but these are the mods my dad and I are looking to do. Each list for each motor (either 292 or 4200) depending on which route we take, they're both so damn appealing but as always each has pros and cons.

Chevy 292 Mods:
1.) extensive machine work as recommended in Leo's Power Manual
2.) lightened & balanced crankshaft
3.) forged steel rods
4.) forged aluminum pistons
5.) custom ground cam (for turbo application)
6.) multiport EFI for stock head (if budget doens't allow for a hybrid head)
7.) Clifford or Offenhauser intake manifold (mod'd for EFI on stock head)
8.) head work & oversized int/exh valves for stock head (again if budget runs out)
9.) turbo exhaust manifold or custom tuned stainless steel tubular headers w/ (both will have ceramic coating)
10.) turbonetics, garret, or greddy turbo and air-to-air intercooler (we'd prefer a split scroll to increase boost response and efficiency)
11.) 3-4" exhaust pipe to either a glasspack or small muffler (if its needed) although Tom's '65 el camino sounded great w/ just the turbo for a muffler

My dad is a bit hesitant to go with a hybrid head (b/c of cost and extensive work), but I think it'd be bitchin' to have a 292 w/ a hybrid aluminum head! My only problem/concern here is future reliablity of the hybrid head and head gasket issues (especially on a boosted application). I am concerned it be plagued w/ problems down the road...any thoughts? The benefits however would be an aluminum head w/ 12 individualized int/exh ports and a fuel injector per int port! The motor in Leo's '54 Studebaker is close to what I'd like to do (only not so much boost, as it'll be primarily street driven on 91 octane).

Chevy Vortec 4200:
1.) engine disassembly so my dad can inspect the motor and check for potential problem areas (most notably in the head assembly)
2.) lightened/balanced crankshaft (if needed/recommended)
3.) forged steel rods
4.) forged aluminum pistons
5.) custom ground cams if recommended (for turbo application)
6.) oversized valves (if recommended)
7.) turbonetics, garret, or greddy turbo and air-to-air intercooler (split scroll turbo)
8.) turbo exhaust manifold or custom tuned stainless steel tubular headers w/ (both will have ceramic coating)
9.) larger fuel injectors
10.) head work (porting/polishing)
11.) 3-4" exhaust pipe to either a glasspack or small muffler

Both motors are so appealing, I wish I had the money to build up both! The 292 bored .060 over (302ci) has that extra 40+ ci over the 4200 and looks so clean when finished (looks like a classic motor w/o all the plastic crap covering it up like today's motors), but has a poor head design. The 4200 has all of today's technology and innovation, but looks ugly (compared to the classic 6's) and has a lot of electronics and plastic/composite parts (just more stuff to break is the way I look at it lol). As you can see, extensive work will be done to either motor we choose. So any help/insight/knowledge/advice would again be greatly appreciated! Thanks for all your contributions already!!!


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A siamese port head and EFI dont work good together. Why not just get a 12 Port head from Kirby. You would be money ahead than trying to make a hybrid one, and you will have a much better head to boot, because its made for the Chevy 6 too start with. Everything else on your list looks good.



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De-Gee,
Been following along. Here are some of my thoughts.

First, THANKYOU for the service given to our country.

I am all for technology. The 4200 has it. Not sure how well it will fit your chassis and think they are ugly. It will present many of it's own challenges.

Back to the 250 or 292.
After just dynoing a 250 with a turbo with the very barest of controls and boost. With 5 PSI and a carb we made 350 hp and equal tq. This was also with a cam not made to turbo. So with the correct planned components IE: cam, intercooler, proper carb , 400 HP would be very doable with the 250.

My dyno 292 in N/A form made 280 hp and always had over 300 tq until higher RPMs. With a turbo expect 400+ ft lbs or more in tq.

For essentials You will need to:
Get Forged pistons made for boost.
rework the stock rods
Balance the lower end
Modify the head with larger valves

Both engines will need:
Turbo
intercooler
blow off valve
wastegate
manifold
EFI computer/ harness
Fuel system

Not sure how the 292 will fit under your hood, check your height.

Just a few thoughts for now. Tom


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CNC-Dude

What?! I had no idea that a 12 port head was made by Kirby! Do you have any info/links on where I could find out more about it? Sounds like a much better route to take rather than trying to fuss with a hybrid head (although a cool idea). The Multiport EFI would also work MUCH better with 6 individualized int ports! I'm sure it'd also make tuning the EFI and turbo much easier too! Any recommendations for EFI (kits/swaps) systems?

Also I read that you're a CNC machinist from your profile, any rough estimates on costs of the machine work/mods that Leo recommends in his Power Manual? It looks like quite extensive machine work...


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First, you're very welcome! Its always rewarding to be thanked by proud fellow Americans \:\)

I haven't measured the engine bay of my '71 Nova quite yet, been busy on base) but it could fit a 396 SBC so hopefully it can fit both the 4200 and 292. I agree that the vortec block is an ugly one, but its got some great potential! The 2" of added deck height may be a minor issue, however I'm probably gunna end up putting a 2" cowl hood on it (hopefully this'll take care of the problem if there is one).

You are one of the builders that I was hoping could give some insight for our build, your '65 el camino is sweet and very close to what we're after. I'd like to make more TQ than HP since its mostly street driven, and hopefully ~450-500+HP and ~500+TQ! Not sure if this will be possible on 91 octane, but hopefully will be on race fuel with more boost ;\)

How extensive was that 250 you dyno'd? 350HP & 350TQ is no joke for a 250ci with only 5psi! Was he running pump gas too? When I hear of stories like this one, it makes my excitement and expectations sky rocket!!!


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If you were to put a hybrid V8 head combo , it would not be street worthy. The deck of the block would be too weak.

There were a few different 12 port heads available thru the years.
Duggan was the first and they were made in Australia ( go figure).
Sissel and Deppe somehow worked together enough to buy the patterns. Sissel/ Kirby then made his own head, and so did Deppe.
These heads are hard to find. They also have a smaller chamber, so get a head before buying pistons.


To answer your post.
The 250 was built very tough, Crower rods, Ross pistons, prepped block, ARP studs and so on. It was built for dyno testing and I wanted it to live. Still had failures, that can be expected.

My 292 does not have those HD parts. With more testing of different parts, I will expect more performance. I am testing another theory now, been busy in the shop with it. This weekend will get it back out on the road.

Last edited by tlowe #1716; 06/10/10 08:37 PM.

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Yea, Kirby owns the car on the front of Leo's book. Sissell Automotive is where he is. Your machine shop bill will vary based on where you are located geographically, as the shop rates flucuate based on local economies. Depending on how radical you are planning to go with your engine is going to determine what needs to be done to it. Much of the alterations done in Leo's book to his own engine is not going to be necessary for you to do, unless you do decide to tackle a hybrid head. You should start off with this:

1)Rough deck and final deck the block to achieve near zero deck
2)Bore and hone cylinders with torque plate, head studs might be a good idea also.
3)Align hone block(might just need to be clean up honed)
4)Balance rotating assembly(lightening crank can get expensive, so check pricing before attempting it)
5)Recondition rods w/ARP bolts if using OEM style rods
6)O-ring block if shooting for high boost
7)Naturally, regrind crankshaft, chamfer oil holes and debur
8)Main studs might or might not be needed, but extra insurance never hurts(make sure they are installed prior to align honing)



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 Originally Posted By: De-Gee's71


Chevy Vortec 4200:
1.) engine disassembly so my dad can inspect the motor and check for potential problem areas (most notably in the head assembly)
2.) lightened/balanced crankshaft (if needed/recommended)
3.) forged steel rods
4.) forged aluminum pistons
5.) custom ground cams if recommended (for turbo application)
6.) oversized valves (if recommended)
7.) turbonetics, garret, or greddy turbo and air-to-air intercooler (split scroll turbo)
8.) turbo exhaust manifold or custom tuned stainless steel tubular headers w/ (both will have ceramic coating)
9.) larger fuel injectors
10.) head work (porting/polishing)
11.) 3-4" exhaust pipe to either a glasspack or small muffler

Both motors are so appealing, I wish I had the money to build up both! The 292 bored .060 over (302ci) has that extra 40+ ci over the 4200 and looks so clean when finished (looks like a classic motor w/o all the plastic crap covering it up like today's motors), but has a poor head design. The 4200 has all of today's technology and innovation, but looks ugly (compared to the classic 6's) and has a lot of electronics and plastic/composite parts (just more stuff to break is the way I look at it lol).


Well I'll take up the torch for the 4200....

A 2006 up engine makes 290HP from the factory. Head porting, cams and headers will add 80 to 90 HP. I made 353HP with factory exhaust manifold and lower than stock compression (8.1 vs 10.2:1 stock) with a ported head and cams.

Add even a light amount of boost and your well into the mid 450HP very doable on 91 octane.

The other item to add to the parts list is sleeves. The stock ones are dry sleeves but only about .06' thick. The aluminum barrels are about .18" thick. The crank is fine with a deburr.

Add head and main studs - your good.

http://www.steedspeed.com make a split billet turbo manifold for this engine - I have the prototype on my truck.

The '06 up engine have hardly any plastic on them - biggest piece is the intake manifold.

If you get a '08 or 09 engine the GM electronics is boost friendly.

The head on these engines makes it all worthwhile.

intake flow is >320 cfm exhaust about 220 to 240 CFM. the valve area is bigger than a BBC with 2.18 intake valves.

as for appearance - well when you hit 10 psi - you forget quickly what it looks like... A GT4088 with the smaller exhaust A/R is perfect for this engine.

turbo 4200

before the trubo


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I have a little steel rod info for ya. I to am building a turbo 292 so I've been looking for some aftermarket steel rods. Pauter give me a quote of $1290.00 a set with 5-6 weeks delivery. Carrillo gave me a quote of $378.00 per rod. Holy crap are they proud of those? I was also quoted $780.00 for a set of GRP aluminum. I'm not sure I can't get away with some reconditioned stockers but according to Leo's book their pretty weak. Good luck with your project.

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Harry

WOW!!! $1,300 for a set of rods is ridiculous! They must be more proud of those than the entire engine itself! I don't think I'd go with a set of stock rods though, I would at least go with a set of forged aluminum rods. They'd be much stronger, better designed (most likely), and lighter than stock. I guess it'd mostly depend on what ur trying to get the motor to accomplish. You gunna turbo it or keep it N/A?


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As far as aftermarket rods go, you would be better off choosing a 250 if you plan to use some better steel rods. They are much cheaper, and more variety is available. Crower has a Sportsman series available in both a 5.700" and 6" length for around $550, as well as a Billet rod for them reasonably priced. Scat has an 6" H-beam rod available for $400 a set. The 292 is going to be a lot more costly if you plan to use a better rod. The 250 that Tlowe just dynoed had stock rods in it, and with ARP bolts and polished beams handled 400 HP@ 5 psi boost with no trouble. Aluminm rods aren't going to last as long as steel rods, plus they require additional mods to be able to use them, as well as additional oil clearances, and that might not be suited for street driving, long term-wise. Put a Crower or Scat rod in it and forget about it.



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DeGee I'm just looking for about 500hp bracket racer with a turbo. How about the $2300 carrillos? I don't think the ups truck will be bringing any of those to my house. I will check with scat though. Probably be the aluminums though. I only race about ten times a year so they should last longer then my interest in this combination will. I've went from 460 ford to a 500 cadillac in this studebaker in the last few years so the six probably won't last to long.

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Harry, no one currently makes an "off the shelf" rod for the 292 that isn't custom, so to get a set for the 292 is going to be $$$$'s as you have already found out. They are just basically a one off rod, and nothing comes close to any current aftermarket rod being made that is close enough to length, housing bore or B/E width to crossover. The aftermarket 250 rods are basically a SBC forging or billet that is easily modified at the time of production to make them work for those engines, and are much cheaper to do so. For that fact, it will cost more money to build a 292 than a 250, even though the HP level will be the same for either engine.



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I understand what your saying although there several rods that have the same lenght. Cadillac,Oldsmobile BB Mopar come to mind but crank pin is way bigger. As far as the 250-292 I prefer the advantage of the extra 42 cubes.

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I agree, the torque advantage is something to consider for sure.



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I got crowers for my 292. $1100, 6 weeks. But in the long term that's only 600 extra bucks in an 8 grand build, so don't really worry about the cost. I think if you keep your rpms below 6k, your hp in the 500's, your rpms down, and do a lot of balancing, polishing and use good bolts, and keep your rpms down, and use a conservative tune, and keep your rpms down, you could get by with stock rods. But, if you don't open the hood, no one will know it's a 4200 and not a 292. I am a disciple of cylinder head flow. It makes the world go round. And the crankshaft.


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The most asked question about the 4200 is what is it...

We put a loonie ($1 Cdn coin) tin on the fender - label it B-ville fund.. guys get so curious they plunk a loonie into find out.. we donate the money...

For myself it about having something different.

Crower can supply rods for the 4200, J&E has the information to make forged pistons, and Darton can make sleeves (not overly expensive). ARP can supply the head and main studs - you need to order direct from them..

Spray it racing has decent prices on injectors that fit the stock in head location.

What ever you do stay with the stock bore size - it'll save you a lot of messing around with head gaskets. The GM head gaskets are as good as or better than a cometic head gasket.

The exhaust port needs about 4-6 work per port. The intake needs about 1/2 hour per port.

Last edited by efi-diy; 06/11/10 08:47 PM.

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Well I'll take up the torch for the 4200....

A 2006 up engine makes 290HP from the factory.



Considering that this engine was designed to be in a Trailblazer (family cruiser), I think it is extremely uncommon to see that ratio of HP vs. displacement.

Are there any other engines out there with that kind of ratio that weren't considered nonperformance engines?


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GM really missed a perfect opportunity with this engine - should have been the base motor for the new camaro... would have brought a lot of the import types back home.


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yeah, I was hoping for that engine (4200) to go into the Colorado .


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 Originally Posted By: efi-diy
GM really missed a perfect opportunity with this engine - should have been the base motor for the new camaro... would have brought a lot of the import types back home.


That would have been neat to see. A lot of guys like to compare the j2z to the 4200. We will never know.

The Camaro v6 & Mustang v6 will do battle for years to come. They will have the v6s makeing 1500+ hp like the Buick motors.

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CNC-Dude

I gotta say after reading these posts about aftermarket rods (especially steel) I'd stick with the Crower or Scat! It sounds like although the 292 is a big brute torque monster, it'd put a serious dent in my budget! Mighty 6 was saying to do a build similar to his it'd run around 20-25K! That's more money than I'd end up spending on the whole car! lol. I sounds like the 4200 or the 250 is a better route to go (b/c of cheaper parts and availability of aftermarket products). I wish I had the money to build both, or better yet all three ;\) Maybe later on down the road I can build a 292, I think that motor would be bitchin' in a '67 Nova!!! I'm sure the size/fitting issues would be the major issue though. Thanks for the parts advice!


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I agree with you, I think the head in the 4200 is a very promising piece of work! DOHC, 4 valves per cylinder, cross flow, VVT, etc can probably aid in the power production department easily! I hate to say it, but foreign car companies (honda, mitsubishi, suburu, etc) are making ridiculous amounts of power from their 4 bangers! Ex: 2.0L Integra's pushing 700+HP from an inline 4! Yeah sure they're pushing 28-30psi, but it still blows my mind! I think with all the advancements and innovations/engineering put into the 4200, it will surpass even the proven 2JZ supra motor! Go GM!

PS
I liked ur comments about "keeping your rpms down" lol that had me rollin'! haha


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efi-diy

Thanks for all the insight/advice and parts listings for the 4200! My dad's been a mechanic (specializing in chevy and gm stuff) for over 25 yrs, but he's never really messed with any of the computer tuning, especially with a turbo! That's the main thing that is intimidating us a little bit...Do you know how thick the cylinder walls are on a stock 06-09 4200 block? Do you recommend sleeving the block for a turbo application? I know it'll add strength and at the very least durability and piece of mind for future yrs of use.


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that would be pretty sweet if they put the 4200 in the new camaro's, or at least had the option other than the v6 (which is pretty mean too....for a v6) They'd also be cool in the colorado I agree, but even with the I5 they still can get up and go!


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 Originally Posted By: De-Gee's71


I gotta say after reading these posts about aftermarket rods (especially steel) I'd stick with the Crower or Scat! It sounds like although the 292 is a big brute torque monster, it'd put a serious dent in my budget! Mighty 6 was saying to do a build similar to his it'd run around 20-25K! That's more money than I'd end up spending on the whole car! lol. I sounds like the 4200 or the 250 is a better route to go (b/c of cheaper parts and availability of aftermarket products). I wish I had the money to build both, or better yet all three ;\) Maybe later on down the road I can build a 292, I think that motor would be bitchin' in a '67 Nova!!! I'm sure the size/fitting issues would be the major issue though. Thanks for the parts advice!


The money amount I quoted you is for a max effort build (1000hp). When you start buiding all out drag race setups with all the current eletronics it takes to compete it gets real pricey fast.

Now, for a budget setup that makes great power go 250. I think a 250 will make a better turbo motor over the 292. I just used what I had allready.

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If you want more torque,just turn up the boost.
My Syclone dynoed @ 550 ft lbs of torque @ 3000 RPM,21 psi @ the wheels.

Personally,I would run the 4200,it will fit better than a 292,lighter weight & will make more power.Better on fuel,they look good to me.

According to EFI diy the head flows as good as my Kirby head.


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 Originally Posted By: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

According to EFI diy the head flows as good as my Kirby head.


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Yea, that really says something about the advances in technology, when you can take a $600 junkyard engine and spend only a couple of hours cleaning the ports up and being able to flow comparative to a top of the ladder fully ported performance/race head that probably cost 4 or 5 times what the whole 4200 engine cost.



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4200 wall thickness

pressed in factory sleeve 0.06"
aluminum barrels the sleeves are pressed into about .12"

Should you put darton sleeves in - I did. You may say that I only am going to say 8 psi.... that was good now I want more ... Unless the engine is built right in the first place this is when the problems start.

I look at them like good insurance.

What I did was get the engine installed and running NA - did a tune then added the turbo and re-tuned this way if I had any engine issues I could sort them out seperate from the turbo install.

As for tuning - if your going to use GM electronic it takes a different set of knowledge than using an aftermarket system.

If you are coming to the convention - come and watch the TBI conversion that I will be doing on the grand prize engine. You can watch and test drive the tuning s/w.

Once you see it once you will get it. It's not hard - just need to twist the way you approach tuning a bit different.

Last edited by efi-diy; 06/12/10 02:39 PM.

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 Originally Posted By: efi-diy
As for tuning - if your going to use GM electronic it takes a different set of knowledge than using an aftermarket system.



Can you use tunner pro for the GM stuff? As far as for the 4200?


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 Originally Posted By: CNC-Dude #5585
[/quote
Yea, that really says something about the advances in technology, when you can take a $600 junkyard engine and spend only a couple of hours cleaning the ports up and being able to flow comparative to a top of the ladder fully ported performance/race head that probably cost 4 or 5 times what the whole 4200 engine cost.


Well, I am only saying that way my cylinder head flows now,as it is just a mild street port job. It flows 320 CFM,that is @ .600" lift as the 4 valve head flows 310 or so @ .500"?

Mike K's has his race port head to flow 400 CFM,not sure if the 4200 head will flow that much?
But remember,it's not only all about flow numbers.

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The flow # I mentioned are at .450" lift. Dick did a bit more work on his head and got another 15 cfm out of the exhaust. If I had a flow bench I'd take a head and push it to see where the limit is before crap happen e.g. hit water.

Last edited by efi-diy; 06/13/10 02:26 PM. Reason: fixed error was intake now exhaust

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I've been debating the Darton sleeves in the '03 we have and tentatively have decided not to open the engine till we decide to screw power adders to it (boost in some form for us).

The 4200 has so much more power stock (than the 228) we figured it would be a good idea to try it that way for a couple reasons (time and $$$).

We plan to "knock the dents out" of the truck and drve it patina'ed (legit patian) for a bit, but that's us, we can't seem to resist the urge to tinker, and that gets real expensive when you have to repaint parts of whatever it is each time you change something. \:\(

Eventually it will be shiney though. \:\)


My, what a steep learning curve. Erik II#5155
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