Can I please have opinions on my split header idea

Posted by: stan z.

Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 12/27/12 11:46 AM

Hey guys! I am in the final stages of mock up of my 46 chevy pickup and I have some clearance issues with my exhaust. Because I am using a frame mounted brake booster under the cab I have limited space for my 2 pipes. I was hoping I could custom make a set of split headers similar to Cliffords only with the front set pointing downwards. Then I could run the front 3 exhaust port pipes under the oil pan to the other side of the truck. This would not only solve the clearance issues I have but It would allow me to have a true dual exhaust look, as I want to exit the pipes under the running boards.

Has anyone done this, or does anyone see any problems with performance. Can I run a 4/2 split style header with the 2 rear ports having its own header to gain a better sound? Will I overheat the oil pan? Here's a couple of pics. The first one shows the truck with the motor mount. I would like to bring the header pipes straight down behind the mount, and run the exhaust pipe under the oil pan. The second pic shows a set of headers I had a chance to buy but missed out on them but they are very close to what I am looking to build . Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated!!!

Posted by: hendi1133

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 12/27/12 12:25 PM

My biggest thing would be ground clearance going under the oil pan maybe? But it would for sure add some heat might not be an issue I don't know for sure on that. I wouldn't do 4/2 personally because if you ran the same exhaust for both the 2 would have less resistance, as the side with 4 would have twice the exhaust flowing through, this is why 3/3 is the way they are all made that are split. What about a set of Fentons cast headers?



You could run it under you oil pan or easier may be just do a y pipe together running back into a large exhaust pipe, not a true dual but there are still ways to achieve the look with great sound a performance in my opinion that may be more practical.
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 12/27/12 12:40 PM

Tom Langdon makes a cast exhaust manifold for these engines that work well.
Posted by: stan z.

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 12/27/12 12:58 PM

 Originally Posted By: hendi1133
My biggest thing would be ground clearance going under the oil pan maybe? But it would for sure add some heat might not be an issue I don't know for sure on that. I wouldn't do 4/2 personally because if you ran the same exhaust for both the 2 would have less resistance, as the side with 4 would have twice the exhaust flowing through, this is why 3/3 is the way they are all made that are split. What about a set of Fentons cast headers?



You could run it under you oil pan or easier may be just do a y pipe together running back into a large exhaust pipe, not a true dual but there are still ways to achieve the look with great sound a performance in my opinion that may be more practical.

If i'm not mistaken Fentons will not work on a 250
Posted by: stan z.

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 12/27/12 01:00 PM

 Originally Posted By: CNC-Dude #5585
Tom Langdon makes a cast exhaust manifold for these engines that work well.

I've looked at them but they have the same design as the Cliffords. The front 3 ports point straight back.
Posted by: hendi1133

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 12/27/12 01:04 PM

Yea sorry Langdons will work for the 250
Posted by: 65BlueTwo

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 12/30/12 05:06 PM

If you are a welder, you might start with flanges, and build your own headers. You can get flanges on ebay. I did, and they are pretty good quality. Check out this link.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320637964539
Posted by: panic

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 12/30/12 09:26 PM

The traditional grouping of 3 front, then 3 rear is not merely convenient.
It's based on the firing order, so each header has regularly spaced exhaust pulses every 240, and the 2 headers are pressurized alternately.
Posted by: Drew, II # 4211

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 12/31/12 11:50 AM

Several Inliners can supply flanges too if you would like to keep it in house. Larry at T6 Racing,Scot,aka,CNC-Dude, and Tom Lowe at 12bolt.com I think.
Posted by: stan z.

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 12/31/12 01:55 PM

 Originally Posted By: 65BlueTwo
If you are a welder, you might start with flanges, and build your own headers. You can get flanges on ebay. I did, and they are pretty good quality. Check out this link.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320637964539

These are the flanges I have already ordered and received. Very nice product. I am still trying to decide if I am going with for plain steel or my brains with stainless.
Posted by: jimmy six #35

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 12/31/12 02:09 PM

I would not worry about bringing an exhaust pipe under the pan many cars did it stock in the 50-60's. You did not say the diameter of the tubing bu you could always flatten it where it goes under the pan. You could also add a deflector attached with clamps or weld one on. If you ever look at a Harley exhaust that's what they do and it's right against your leg or boot..Good Luck
Posted by: bcowanwheels

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 12/31/12 03:43 PM

I,D NOT USE THE LARGE COLLECTOR'S RATHER OPT FOR 2 - 2 1/2" PIPES AND LET BOTH OF THEM RUN OUT OF THE HEAD, 90 DEGREE DOWN WHILE BRINGING THEM SIDE BY SIDE THEN UNDER THE PAN SIDE BY SIDE THEN 90 DEG BACK SIDE BY SIDE IT WOULD GIVE YOU SOME NEAT OPERTUNITYS TO SHOW SOME CREATIVE PIPE WORK, ALSO IF YOU DO RUN YOU PIPE UNDER YOUR OIL PAN YOU NEED TO WRAP IT IN HEADDER HEAT ASBESTOS WRAP, ITS 2" WIDE AND ABOUT 1/4" THICK AND WILL PREVENT HEAT SOAK FROM THE EXH PIPE. I HAD TO DO THIS ON MY 72 CHEVY PICKUP TO PREVENT HEAT SOAK ON STARTER AND OIL PAN. WORKS GREAT AND YOU CAN GET IT CHEAP ON EBAY
Posted by: stan z.

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 01/01/13 11:00 AM

 Originally Posted By: bcowanwheels
I,D NOT USE THE LARGE COLLECTOR'S RATHER OPT FOR 2 - 2 1/2" PIPES AND LET BOTH OF THEM RUN OUT OF THE HEAD, 90 DEGREE DOWN WHILEE BRINGING THEM SIDE BY SIDE THEN UNDER THE PAN SIDE BY SIDE THEN 90 DEG BACK SIDE BY SIDE IT WOULD GIVE YOU SOME NEAT OPERTUNITYS TO SHOW SOME CREATIVE PIPE WORK.

You lost me on that one dude, LOL. Are you saying both sets of headers under the pan to the passenger side of truck? I'm missing something. Please explain so a knuckle head like me can understand.

I want the front 3 exhaust ports to go under the pan and leave the back 3 ports identical to the Langdon/Clifford design.
Posted by: tlowe #1716

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 01/01/13 12:01 PM

From my experience, a inline 6 when splitting the exhaust to a left, right exit at bumper , sound like crap. The pipes need to run out on the same side to sound nice.
Posted by: bcowanwheels

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 01/01/13 12:43 PM

yes 2 pipes under pan close n side by side.
Posted by: stan z.

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 01/01/13 06:14 PM

 Originally Posted By: tlowe #1716
From my experience, a inline 6 when splitting the exhaust to a left, right exit at bumper , sound like crap. The pipes need to run out on the same side to sound nice.

Wasn't looking to exit out the back bumper. my thoughts were to exit just behind the cab either under the running boards or go through the bed sides. I'm not sure theres a truly good sounding inline6 period, except for maybe drag cars with straight pipes LOL.
Hmmm there's an idea straight pipes up through the hood. Seriously though, I thought just using the shortest Cherry Bomb or Porters I could find and have them underneath the cab.
Something like this
Posted by: stock49

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 01/01/13 06:31 PM

Cool idea ... but won't it carbon black (at least) and perhaps even cook the paint off the rear fenders?
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 01/01/13 07:07 PM

These engines twist and flex an awful lot to try and mount it to something that stationary.
Posted by: Beater of the Pack

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 01/01/13 07:09 PM

That whole area at the left rear of the engine is a pain to work around. Motor mount, clutch linkage. master cylinder lines and linkage, speedo cable. If Gm had just put the battery and starter there too it would have been a a total engineering snafu. I like Bob's Idea of running both pipes under to the right side where there's more room. I totally agree they should stay together. Putting one on each side makes one a lot longer. I think the idea of one on each side was to emulate a V8 look. Actually on our inlines one pipe is enough and it doesn't have to be a sewer pipe either. My 270 in my 53 pickup has had several exhaust systems in he last 30 years. The best performance (street driven) was Clifford Viper Tube headers,2" pipes to the bumper with class packs and a crossover pipe right after the header flanges. Some said I didn't need that on an inline. The worst setup was Fenton cast headers with 2 1/2 pipes into a 3" collector to a Flowmaster and a 3"pipe exiting just in front of the driver side rear wheel. It lost both bottom end power and top RPM. It sounded hollow and created a weird pressure thing that actually hurt ears if I drove with the window down. It now has the Fentons with 2" pipes side by side out to the bumper on the driver side with 20" or 22" Cherry Bombs. It sounds powerful when you are behind it but quiet enough inside that I'm considering fixing the radio. I can drive with the window down in comfort. A couple of years ago I was in the running for the "Rappin'" trophy at our car show but told them to give it to someone else because I made the trophies and I could just make myself another one. I know it sounds great. I don't know if any of this is worth any thing but one thing to remember is that too much pipe is possible with these engines. An all out race motor might be different but for a wide RPM range some think a little restriction is helpful.
Posted by: preacher-no choir

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 01/01/13 11:45 PM

had a '63 chevy ll with three on the tree and they are so crowded up under the front floorboard area with all the stuff beater mentioned, that the factory trys to help out by dropping the throw out fork down to a 7:00 o'clock position (viewed from rear)rather than the more common 9:00 o'clock position) to free up the congestion. When I chose to block and split the exhaust manifold I put the new pipe to the front of original. This way the original (left) side would retain the all the complete original plumbing, and all I had to fab was the new dual (right) side.

The new right side went from further forward than the stocker, down, passing in front of the front crossmember and under the engine crossmember and then turn back toward the rear. I was fortunate at that time the aftermarket exhaust folks were making a dual side tail pipe (for the '64 Chevy lls with the V8s)-it matched the stocker that exited just behind the rear wheel (it would have been a bear to fab-kinda like over the axle and around the bend-to grandma's house we go-but I digress).

All that to say that the new dual side was several (maybe 3-5 FEET) longer than the stock side. 2" to the 16" mufflers (same as '53 chevy cars) which were snuggled in a recess under the back seat area. The twin Smitty steels would come into their plate glass shattering RRAAAAP at different rpms--it would RRAAA out of one pipe and while it was beginning to PP the other side would start its RRAAAPP outta the other pipe like Stereo pipes with a delay pedal (beater knows what that is-kinda Sun record style). Sorta like you had twin sixes blasting away only one had a head start on the other.

So there is a down side to making one side with to (oops) too much length just to make the pipes come out symetrical (just another reason I dont like metrics). But if you are running some body and he has his windows down - he's paying for it, maybe to the point of backing off first!!
Posted by: stan z.

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 01/02/13 05:08 AM

Wow guys! you sure gave me a lot to digest. I guess the first thing to address is now your telling me my best option would be to run both headers under the pan. That is defiantly doable but then I would be adding double the heat to the pan. Does the header wrap work that well as to allow me to do this. After taking a closer look, I think I can get at least a #" space between the pipes and the pan for air space. If I was to do this, where would be the best place to install a cross over pipe? Right along side of the engine as soon as the pipes come out from under the pan? Or further back under the cab just before the glass packs? I sure have a lot of room to work with on the passenger side of the engine.


I guess originally I was trying to not only get the dual exhaust look by exiting the pipes out each side, but also to free up room under the drivers side of the cab. As far as having a good sound, that was the least of my concerns, seeing as how straight sixes really don't have a lot to work with.

Here's the link to the header company I plan on using.they send you a mock up kit made from pvc pipe. Once you have the design you want you send the kit back and then they fab the pipes for you in a special "one off" fixture they make for your headers. Pretty cool stuff but $$$$$$$$!!!!! But I look at it this way...we are all already dead because the world came to an end on 12/21, so what difference does it make
http://www.stainlessheaders.com/customheaders
Posted by: panic

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 01/02/13 07:15 AM

If you're going to flatten the tube for clearance, you have to go to a bigger OD to keep the same area.
E.g., 2" ID pipe is 3.14 square inches.
Flattened to 1", it's got to be 3.14" wide, etc.
If it's roughly rectangular when re-shaped, start with 2-5/8" OD at least.
Posted by: Beater of the Pack

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 01/02/13 09:55 AM

If you keep putting down the inline sound you will piss someone off. \:D One reason I changed one of my exhaust systems was because several people told me it sounded like a V8. It didn't but I didn't want anyone thinking that about me.
In my opinion if you can get 1-1 1/2" between the pipes and the pan I would not worry. The only time it would be a issue would be if you were sitting still and then the fan would be keeping air moving out of the engine compartment. A heat shield would help. I don't like the wrap because it can attract and trap moisture promoting more rust, but is does work in containing exhaust heat. That said, I wrapped the Viper headers with no rust issues.
Posted by: stan z.

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 01/02/13 11:03 AM

 Originally Posted By: Beater of the Pack
If you keep putting down the inline sound you will piss someone off. \:D
LOL! Are you saying the inline crowd is just as sensitive as the guys over on the Hokey board?

One reason I changed one of my exhaust systems was because several people told me it sounded like a V8. It didn't but I didn't want anyone thinking that about me.


I suppose you wouldn't care to elaborate on that exhaust system would you?
Posted by: Beater of the Pack

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 01/02/13 01:23 PM

Nope, it is a secret that no self respecting Inliner would want to know about. \:o
The one I took off was the 3" single described above. I have had people say that about the one I have now. It comes from the idea that if an engine sounds strong it must be a V8. Sixes have a cute little poppy sound. How many times have I pulled in somewhere to have someone ask what "What you got in that thing?" I raise the hood and he turns to his buddy and says, "Holley Crap, it's only a 6. It sounded like he really had something." \:\( \:D
Posted by: panic

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 01/02/13 09:55 PM

See if you can catch the Goodwood classic sports car races on cable. Plenty of Jaguar XK-E, Aston-Martin Vantage etc. L6 engines running full out.
Posted by: hendi1133

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 01/02/13 10:00 PM

For the dual exhaust look I had my headers ran into a Y pipe running a single back to a camaro style muffler which has 2 outlets and they come out behind the wheel wells I can provide pictures if you would like. No sound because the car is all tore apart and I dont think I have any video clips, but it sounds damn good.
Posted by: preacher-no choir

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 01/02/13 10:21 PM

Just one more driver side obstacle to clear... if you got a late ("59 & up) 261 under the hood of a pre '55 chevy, you got to contend with them two dad gum big ol' full flow oil filter lines (235s, earlier 261, and the Gimmie boys didn't have that additional problem, you literally got to "grow" a dual side pipe up to the dual side exhaust manifold outlet. The setup in my ol' '54 had about eight welds in the dual side pipe from the flange down to about the oil pan level just to zig an' zag around all the junk. All these obstacles caused a few fellows to make their dual side outlets on their split manifolds to the front of the original stock opening. Seeing how much easier that was (generator/motormount was about the only things to dodge on a '49/'54 body) caused me to use that idea on my Chevy ll. It was pretty easy project, but did wind up with a longer pipe from a_ _ _ _ _ _ to appetite.

The longer the tail pipes the sharper, or more shrill, the exhaust note, when you back off in high gear they will "snap, crackle, and pop" a lot; if you have your mufflers further toward the back with short tailpipes-the exhaust note will be more dull or "thuddier" with not much popping when you back off the gas pedal. The "RAAAPP" becomes more of a "ROOOMP", but still loud with traditional glas or steel packed mufflers. I ran a set of Headman Headders with 2-1/2 pipes to a pair of Flowmasters with short tail pipes exiting at the front of the rear tires on my '67 250 std. shift Chevy pickup--They had a great "bark" when you blipped the throttle, but there was some definate throbbing inside the cab. Never changed the tail pipe location so couldn't totally blame the Flowmasters for the throbbing or drumming inside the cab.

All my cars were stick shifts and had their duals with a pipe on each side of the car like God intended (no furrin" Austin-Healey look for me!) Now I did have a friend who's 350 V8 260 Z Datsun had both of its exhaust on the stock side (the 5-liter Blue oval boys learned the hard way that it wasn't just some spec'l headders onna sporty car-- they were Hookers onna Chevy!!)
Posted by: Beater of the Pack

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 01/04/13 09:21 PM

God should have put half of the exhaust ports on each side if he intended to have a pipe on each side. \:D
Posted by: preacher-no choir

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 01/04/13 10:17 PM

now wait a minute... next you're gonna say He drives a single exhaust 85 h.p. ford
Posted by: Beater of the Pack

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 01/06/13 02:53 PM

A Rolls Silver Cloud I think.
Posted by: stan z.

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 02/23/13 06:21 PM

So I finally got my mock up kit from Stainlessheaders INC. Basically what they do is send you a box with a bunch of PVC fittings, some trick universal bends, and some flanges with bungs welded in place. What you do is route the tubing and fittings the way you want, pin it all together so it stays rigid, and then send it back to them. At that point they make a special "one off" fixture just for your headers. Then they cut and fit and weld the stainless tubing together. Here is where I after 8 long hours in the shop. Still have 2 tubes yet to far.


Still not sure if I am going to run both tubes under the pan to the passenger side or keep one on the drivers side for the true dual exhaust look. I did however find a youtube video of a guy who ran his pipes seperate like I want and the damn truck sounds pretty good. He's using purple hornies for mufflers. and it looks like he ran his one pipe under the tranny to the other side, and then all the way out the back. Have a look!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=read2TJU5ag

Here's a couple of videos of how Stainless INC. makes the headers once they get your mock up kit. Pretty cool!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s1-AZcPWAA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc-KhMl-6ss
Posted by: stan z.

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 03/05/13 11:55 AM

Ok so here is the final mock up with everything pinned in place ready to be sent out to the fab shop. I have shaped them so I can have the option to run both exhaust tubes under the drivers side such as the Clifford and Langdon headers do, or as my original idea, to run the front 3 ports under the pan to the passenger side. Anybody see any changes I should make?

Posted by: stan z.

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 05/03/13 12:26 PM

Well, that was easy enough!!!!!!

Posted by: Twisted6 I.I #3220

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 05/03/13 01:46 PM

NICE JOB \:\)
Posted by: popper6

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 05/03/13 03:31 PM

I have Fentons on my 261 and I crossed over right in front of the Bell housing at the rear of the pan. Tucked up and never had a problen in 19 years. Of course I'm only runnig 1.75 pipe.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 05/03/13 05:59 PM

Nice headers!
If you don't mind,, how much?

Thx

MBHD
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 05/03/13 08:51 PM


4 Cylinder

6 Cylinder

8 Cylinder

10 & 12 Cylinder


Mild Steel

$650.00*

$1050.00*

$1600.00*

$1900.00*


304 Stainless

$950.00*

$1350.00*

$1975.00*

$2350.00*

I found prices.
MBHD
Posted by: stan z.

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 05/04/13 12:48 PM

 Originally Posted By: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank
Nice headers!
If you don't mind,, how much?

Thx

MBHD

Waaaay more then I probably should have. However, considering the money I have pzzzed away over the years on racing, women, and alcohol, I say it was a bargain. Honestly though, it was 1,300. In that price though was their cost to mail me the mock up kit with all the parts such as universal bends, pvc fittings, and the flanges. All of which is a one time deal for them because most of the parts and pieces can not be used again. Plus the return shipping was included for the finished headers (35 lbs.)

The decision to spend that kind of money came down to the fact that I have neither the time or the fab skills to make a set on my own. I needed a custom set because of the lack of room for 2 pipes under the driver side. And most importantly I wanted a quality piece that I would never have to replace. Not like the piece of crap that Clifford sells that looks like it was put together with a sling shot. I'm sure there's guys that will flame me for spending that kind of money but,....... its my truck.

Here's how the inside looks where they blended the flange to the pipes.

Close up of the welds

also included in the price was the transition and bottom bend with O2 sensor bung
Posted by: RedMan*

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 05/04/13 01:17 PM

Mr.Stan,
I have to agree with ya.
Some folks will scream at that cost, but when you put the pieces of the puzzle together, it's just another factored in cost.
They do look bad a$$ though.

L8R,
Stu
Posted by: THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 05/04/13 06:27 PM

superb

I'll bet the guy had 30 - 40 hours of fab time in them.
Posted by: stan z.

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 05/04/13 06:49 PM

 Originally Posted By: THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
superb

I'll bet the guy had 30 - 40 hours of fab time in them.

Bingo! He called on a Thursday morning to let me know he was getting them started. I asked him how long would it take and he told at least 4 days.
He then called me the following Tuesday afternoon to let me know he had a couple of hours left on them Wednesday morning and they would be in a box by noon. So yes between making the fixture for the mock up tubes, and then doing the final assembly and welding he had 4 full days and a couple hours on the 5th. Plus lets not forget the materials cost to them. I know with my business I wouldn't work for anybody for 4 full days and not make at least $1,300. Not here in NJ anyway.
Posted by: Beater of the Pack

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 05/04/13 09:03 PM

If a guy can't make a buck he's not going to sit around and build one off headers. I'm glad you showed this to us. I like 'em.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Can I please have opinions on my split header idea - 05/04/13 10:18 PM

Stan,
if you need them, you need them, that is about the norm price for custom 6 cyl headers. They look real nice & money well spent.

MBHD