i've got a little time so i try and document my motor.
block is a 1964 casting bored 60 over. no other major mods to block.

head also 1964 casting. blended bowls, PES bolt in lumps, V 8 springs not high pressure. ferrea valves 1.90 intakes, 1.6 exhaust.stock rocker arms.arp head studs. just using pressed in studs as there is no high rpm or pressures. real light blending of chambers.

cam is custom ground by comp for a turbo setup. the specs are .521/.512 int/exh, duration @.50 are 218 int/ 212 exh, lobe separation 114 cam # is C62 5432/5211 H 114.

oiling modifications, blocked oil bypass, restricted front timing oiler spout, added 1/4" exterior port to oil turbo. stock size pump.
standard rod and main bearings.

for gaskets felpro makes a race set for the six's still. it includes the good head gasket 1025.

old style trw forged truck pistons TRW 2199F(very heavy design), stock rings. arp rod bolts, balanced rotating assy. using a fisher harmonic damper.

for induction clifford 4 bbl intake with homemade adaptor for a 2000 chevy 5.3 throttle body. six 42 lb injectors were also added to the intake ports @ a 45 degree angle.

i used a turbo specific exhaust manifold mated to a turbonetic 62-1 turbo. the turbo has a passage for water coolant and oil lubrication. to control boost i am using a turbonetics racegate wastegate.

also used is a intercooler to help keep the air charge denser and reduce detonation.

to control the fuel injection a holley commander 950 is used. tied into it is a fjo wide band O2 sensor and for timing control i am using a chevy hei from a 81 calif truck application with spark control.

the engine is not totally tuned yet but i am very impressed with the performance. it was not cheap to build, but i wanted to build it right.

i am happy answer all questions.

here are some pics. tom

Looks very nice.!!
Do you have any pics of your intercooler & plumbing?

Hank

It looks to me like a well thought out aproach and execution on those pictures.Congratulations,keep us posted as the tuning comes around.Hector.

hank , the intercooler is a spearco. inlet and outlet on one end. finned area measures 18 long by 6 tall. 3.5" thick. inlets are 2.5". i believe it is rated at over 600 hp. it is a parralel design, which means the tubes are short. they go the 6 inch direction and are of a square design. in the pic's the output of the turbo goes dirrectly to the intercooler. not pictured is the return to the throttle body. it would have blocked some stuff for the pic's. i started the install the end of the first week of may. had it running first week of june. had to sacrifice my hood latch assy for the intercooler. now i've got the old school hood pins. through all this my back has been killing me. i've had a scan done and it shows a compressed l5, which is sqeezing my right sciatic nerve. may have to have surgury. tom

Looks good and well thought out. If you have a reputable chassis dyno it may be worth the extra bucks. I took mine to a chassis dyno and he showed me things that would have taken me a year to figue out at the race track.

Steven

Just wanted this to come to the top again.

no problem. here are a few additions. added stage 8 locking fastens to the fly wheel bolts( i must have forgotten to tighten them?) upgrade from 42 lb injectors to 60 lb units. the engine would run lean in upper rpm under full boost (12-15 lbs). added a bigger turbine housing to slow down the turbo's boost ability. it can wick up real fast. also found a mustang chassis dyno within a hr drive. i may try it out. tom

That great!!!
It should really make a lot of torque.

How is it w/the larger turbine housing?

Also the injectors?


MBHD

tlowe, are you using a bov? Are you retarding the timing when the boost comes on? Also are you using a boost referenced fuel regulator? I run turbos on a BB Chev. using MSD 6BTM, works great. My wife had the same problem with her back as you are having, she took the 3 shots in the back last summer, it worked good for her. Good luck, and like your setup. Cya

gh, i am running a bov, you can sure hear it when letting off the throttle while under boost. there is a boost referenced fuel regulator. 1 lbs boost in fuel per lb of turbo boost. i do retard the timing. it is control by my holley fuel injection computer. i run the timing all the way down to 22 degrees under full boost. the dist is a 1981 calif emmisions hei, it has no vacum can, got it from orielly's. for my back, ended up having a simple surgery to relieve the pressure on the sciatic. it is not fixed but the pain is nearly 100% gone, whew.

mbhd, the weather is just starting to break here, it will be another month before it sees the road. winter is slow to release it's grip on us.

Tom:
What A/R turbine housing did you end up going with? I got my eye on a 60/69 turbo on eBay. Do I need to go bigger on the turbine end? I was going to get a 3.0L Marine electronic distributor base and put in the 4.3L guts to run the timing. Same size and proportions as our 6. I think the MegaSquirt will interface.(?)

May I ask what your can of $$$ is in your setup?

on a 292 a 60-1 or a 62-1 turbonetics compressor with a p trim exhaust wheel and .68 exh housing would be very good choices. my first turbo setup spooled way to quick and hard.
brad, cost? more than i care to add up, but in the turbo/manifolds/ injection stuff is around 25-2700 range. the long block is not that "built". tom

Tom, you are using a ,82 or something close to that on your turbine housing now,,, correct?

MBHD

yes, but i have a stage 5 wheel, not a p trim.

Tom, thanks. Glad you could make it through my horrible spelling and sentence!

Want to keep this on top as much as possible.

Keeps slipping down, needs a lift up.........

tlowe,,
quick question, did you install the polly urethane engine mounts?
If so, how do you like them, & does the engine move around?
Thanks
MBHD

Video?

hank, i still have rubber mounts. it moves much less than with 6 cyl mounts. for those that do not know, i am using v8 rubber mounts. i am planning on changing to interlocking mounts next.

inline300, no video yet, but when i get it it will be posted. any suggestions for free video posting. good ones, with some loading speed. tom

You can always use YouTube or StreetFire.net

Photobucket.com seems to work ok too.

Or you can give me a copy of it some how and I'lladd it to the Videos I already have up on my site. If it is in VHS format I can load it onto my comp. edit and Up load it. I can even Put it on DVD/CDs what ever

well, i went to a local track end of june. i had a less than stellar showing. i could not get any traction because i am running some cheap too skinny tires. 4 runs @ 16 flat with 2.3 60 ft. needless to say i had a few problems. traction was bad as i said earlier. it would spin badly in second gear also. i do now have a 3.55 geared posi in it. it would also power down near the end of the track, just lose power. so after 2 runs like that i began logging my runs on a laptop. my fuel system will do this. what a neat tool to have. i can log air/fuel mixture, rpm, spark, water temp, boost, timing, intake air temp and many other things. it showed me some of the problems i was having.
i have been running the timing very conservative and @ full boost it was set @ 20 also have been running the fuel mixture the same way and had it at 10.75-11 @ full boost. i ended up logging 2 runs.
the next day i took it out and started leaning up the mixture. eventually getting it close to 12 to 1 under full boost. that woke up the motor quite abit. then i started bringing in more timing 1 point at a time and testing. so far i have brought it up to 24 with no signs of pinging. with the timing increase the motor is really starting to wake up.
i am going to get some bigger tires (enough to fill the wheel well) and try again in mid august. tom

Tom,

What MPH did you run and how heavy is the car with you in it? You should be able to run 26 to 28 deg's timing on 94 octane and 12.5 to 12.8:1 AFR. Watch your plugs as you increase the timing. You may want to consider killing a bit of boost while in 1st gear... back your waste gate off and then add a vacumm solenoid to bleed some of the signal off that goes to the waste gate when not in 1st gear so you can get full boost, add a needle valve in series with the solenoid so you can control the bleed rate accurately. Some of the 700R4's have a pressure switchs on the valve body that closes when in 2,3&4th... you could wire this up to the solenoid so as soon as your in 2nd the solenoid opens...

Marc

i am going to try and bump up the timing more. i also figured out with my data logs why i was losing power at the big end of the track. my a/f ratio's were going up, you could say they were spiking. so i taped a fuel pressure guage to the windshield and found the fuel pressure climb with boost and maintain until about the middle of 3rd gear, then the pressure would unexpectedly drop. not all the way . but enough to lean it and cause loss of power. i have sumped the tank allready and have a pump that should easily supply thge fuel i need. i may still be low on fuel and just missing the sump and have it slossed to the rear for too long, enough to drain the sump? so i am going to try it next with a plumb full fuel tank.
my mph was only 89-90 mph (please don't laugh). i'll get all the pieces working together yet. tom

Tom,

New system gremlins... a full tank will also help with traction... You might want to put an air bag inside the RH rear coil and pre-load the suspension a bit.


Marc

I also told Tom in an email to get some M/T drag radials.
Edelbrock,, upper & lower rear end four link bars.
Air bag,etc & so-on.

The next issue I forsee after he gets some traction is that the torque converter stall is too low for a 1/4 type car, but I know he is not that interested in making it a track vehicle.

MBHD

With a lockup torque converter you can get away with a 2200 rpm convertor and get it to lock in 2,3,&4th. I have a 2200 rpm convertor in my s/w with a 700R4 and its fine. A 100HP shot of NO2 for 1/2 sec coming off the line does wonders for getting the turbo to spool.. a local Ford guy has a 2.3 inline 4 turbo motor in a fox body mustang.. runs low 11's @ 125 mph this is at 3500' ASL. He runs a 150HP shot off the line.

efi-diy
MBHD [/qb][/QUOTE]With a lockup torque converter you can get away with a 2200 rpm convertor and get it to lock in 2,3,&4th. I have a 2200 rpm convertor in my s/w with a 700R4 and its fine. A 100HP shot of NO2 for 1/2 sec coming off the line does wonders for getting the turbo to spool.. a local Ford guy has a 2.3 inline 4 turbo motor in a fox body mustang.. runs low 11's @ 125 mph this is at 3500' ASL. He runs a 150HP shot off the line. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Yeh, I think his converter stalls to 1200-1400 RPM that = too low.
I seriously doubt he will put a Nitrous shot on the Elky, he says he is not that much into racing.

RevOD has a friend w/a 4 cyl Fox body Mustang that recently ran 8's set a new record.

MBHD

when i had my tranny built, my guy said he had 2 convertors to choose from. stock which was 1600 rpm and one with alittle higher stall 1800 rpm. i got the second one. i do not seem to have any torque or boost problem off the line. it is simply a traction problem. boost fully in by 2nd gear and then i see another traction problem in second. i seriously do not think this tranny is going to survive. the 2nd gear shifts are so brutal at full boost. even the 3rd gear shift is a tough one.
bigger tires are coming.
i did get to drive it more now that vacation is all done.
with a full tank of fuel and a fuel guage on the windshield. @ full boost , pressure is 52ish.now the fuel pressure does not drop down until the very end of 3rd gear. i believe that maybe my 42 lb injectors are pulse widthed out? according to the computer they are close to max. within 10%. maybe i'll change to my 50 lb injectors. with the bigger injectors, i will be able to run less pressure and shorter pulse widths.

any other thoughts on the fuel pressure dropping out after being at full boost and high rpm in 3rd gear? tom

tlowe I.I,,,,,,

First question,,,can you hold the brakes & build boost pressure to say 8,9,15 lbs & then release the brakes.
If not ,I recommend installing a hydra boost brake setup.

Second Q, how much boost pressure can you make by holding the brake pedal down as hard as you can?

Third Q, what size is your fuel line/hose?

Are you using any of the factory fuel line?

What pump are you using, fuel filter, regulator?

Having too small injectors will not cause your fuel pressure to drop off, you have other issues in you fuel system if you are seeing a fuel pressure drop.

Installing bigger tires will help w/traction,but you haveing a turbo ,292 & in an El Camino(light in the rear end) are all the cause of not having any traction.
One of the worst things to get bad traction, is to have stiffer rear end coil springs than stock.

Now if you really want to get serious on traction w/out going overboard.

Like I stated earlier, Get the Edelbrock upper & lower four link bars,right side air bag,a stiffer right rear coil spring(to launch straight) & a set of Mickey Thompson Drag radials.

I know you can't fit too wide a tire on those ,,,but you can install sorta tall tires, which will give you more rubber contact patch to the ground. If you can get a tire like 29" tall 9"s wide it should hook pretty good.

A lot of turbo cars for the street like a 3.42 rear gear ratio.


I know my Syclone(4.3 V-6) is not a good comparision, but,,my torque converter stalls to 2100 RPM,
& it takes little time to get it to boost up to 6-10 lbs @ 2100 & my cam specs are around 175 degrees duration @ .050 = wimpy :-).
Makes peak HP @ 3800 RPM. 386 HP Dynoed.
So I would think 1800 stall converter must be pretty hard to get full boost on a launch.

My Syclone has 3.42 gears w/a 700R4.

Glad to hear it's running, & for the update!

Not trying to be bossy or anything ,just trying to give you some ideas.

MBHD

hank, i'll check how much boost i can build while braking.

i did find a problem though. in the shop i triggered the fuel pump relay and measured the voltage to the pump at the pump. it was 10.7 @ 55 psi. so i changed all the wiring to a larger guage and retested. had 11.8 with no motor running and 12.5 @ battery. it is better and the pump sounds it too. i have yet to try it on the road to see if it makes a difference. measured up what back spacing i can use with a 8 " rim. will order those tomorrow.
my fuel pump is a holley 12-920 which is a 480pph pump. it should be more than sufficient. and is quiet. tom

Good find, having the voltage that low will make the pump not put out the proper fuel flow.

Kenne Bell, has a Boost a pump, that you can increase voltage as boost increases, even if your alternator fails.
I have one, I just bought it for my Syclone.

I would guess the back spacing would be 5".
I had a 1965 SS Malibu ,I sold it to my friend.
Good luck!

MBHD

Just curious, you are running a relay to power the pump? What gauge wire did you move up to? Most of a volt drop still sound high to me (but then I tend to use wire that is WAY bigger than is actually necessary).

i was running a 16 guage wire. now a 12 guage. the relay is triggered from the computer. tom

well, did some more testing with the elco this weekend.
hank, when holding the brakes, it will break the tires loose before boost registers.
i looked at the data logs for a run and could see on launch, boost builds to the wastegate setting, almost instantly (.25 sec). also, that boost is hit before 2k rpm. boost still climbs after that. but i am now used to that and have tuned for it.
i no longer have my fuel pressure problem, as the larger wire cured it. it should see the track again this fri. tom

Tom,
sounds like you could use a hydraboost brake setup. Your brakes can't hold.
At the very least, install larger rear wheel brake cylinders.
I did this on my Syclone & it made a big difference/improvement.
If you want your Elky to launch desent, you need to launch w/boost.
Did you get some sticky tires,because if you spun bad before & it was not running that good,watch out now if it's running good.

MBHD

hank,
i messed up reading my data log. it takes longer than .25 sec to boost. from my calc's boost reach's about 11.6 lbs at maximum rpm.
i did get some bigger tires ( 1" more rubber per side than before). i have even larger ones ordered that will add 1 more " yet per side. tom

Tom,
So, how long does it take to get full boost?

Sounds OK about the tires,,,,but,,, if they are just a standard radial tire,it probably will not help too much.
Just need to get a set of sticky M/T drag radials for the track.
Good luck though!!!

MBHD

went out again last night. it was a test/tune evening. it is doing better. all runs were in the 92 mph range @ 1/4 mile and time was ussually 15.3 sec. considering last times best of 15.9, i am going the right way. it is still having a problem of losing some fuel pressure on the big end of 3rd gear. got to get that resolved.
my fuel line is 3/8. the pump is also more than sufficient. i think maybe one of my fuel filters prior to the pump may be a restriction.
my 60 ft's were the same as last time 2.3 sec. i am going to have to bolt some weight in the back to get traction.
looking at the data logs. my boost is peaking around 11.6 psi. i am also going to work on getting the boost higher sooner.
tom

Good to hear you ran it again!!
If you are in good tune, the turbo will spool faster.
Next is the torque converter, since you said the boost control is/was sota bad,because of too small a turbine housing.

I have said before,to RevOD,you need about 2400 min.,2600 would be better,RPM stall converter,even with a stock cam(& yours is not stock) but nobody seems to want to listen to my advice,which is fine,but don't try & fool yourself into believing you can get around this boost coming in too slowly,because it will remain the same,unless you install a higher stall torque converter or squirt some nitrous during your launch.
Remember,even (IF) you install a higher stall torque converter,you still have OD & it will still lock up in 2nd,3rd,& OD if you wire it that way, so your mileage will not suffer on the city or open highway.
Instead of adding extra weight to the bed, try some sticky drag radials!!
Sounds like I am getting frustraighted,,, but I'm not really.
Two cents thrown :-)

MBHD

Tom,

I have a 2400 stall converter in my malibu that has a 700r4 and I wired the trans to lock up in 2,3,&4th. So even around town milage is not impacted.

A set of sticky tires will do wonders along with an air bag in the RH coil spring - try 35 psi to start.

Try squirting in some blue windsheild washer fluid using a Hobbs pressure switch to turn on the pump say when you get to 3-4 psi and add another 3-4 deg. of timing. With 12 psi you should be 4-5 mph faster.

thanks for the tips on suspension and torque convertors. i'll for now just keep working to make the motor make more power.
been working on the elco again.
changed the restrictive fuel filter, found out it has a real small 3/16 inlet hole. wow, never expected a filter supplied with the pump to be that restrictive.
i also changed the wastegate spring from a 3-5 lb to a 6-9 spring. boost should come up faster now.
got the biggest tire i can fit in the wheel well now. 255/60/15. should help some with traction. they are also 1" taller.
i have added more timing, it seems the more i add the better it runs. also adding a knock sensor to tie into my fuel/timing computer. it can pull out a set amount of timing when knock is sensed. it was also a cheap addon .
going once more to a track on sunday, hope to keep improving.

Tom,

Try running about 18-20 psi in the rear tires and 32-35 in the front at the track and make sure you drive around the water box. With street tires the water gets sucked up into the siptes and then runs out at the starting line... just do 1 good dry hop to clean any crud off the tires and then stage. Not sure if your holley box has an external input to retard the timing - its another way to build boost on the line, it puts heat into the exhaust manifold.

Marc

efi
you are sure right about retarding the timing holds/ builds heat in the manifold. i found out if the timing was to low at higher rpm and load the boost goes thru the roof. that was the main reason i was having boost creep. i added more timing and the boost went down and the motor makes more power, more fun too. tom

Tom,
how much timing are you running now?
And, how little were you running before?

The only problem with setting say 4,6,8,etc,,, degrees of timing pulled from your knock sensor,it retards all the cylinders ,therefore really killing your power,,,,but it's better to be safe!!
Goodluck @ the next rack visit!!!

I'll just say it again,try some methanol injection,,,,you will be really surprized how much total timing you can go with!!!
From what info I have gathered this Alky inj ,works good & has great product support.
Julio is the owner I believe?
http://www.alkycontrol.com/?ref=turbobuick

MBHD

hank, i was running 21 degrees @max rpm/boost. now i am up to 25 degrees @ same. just slowly moving the timing up. so far there is no pinging, but i would like to keep it that way. no need to change head gaskets as much.
that looks like a nice system. tom

well i'm back from another fun day at the track.
impoved abit from my last outing.

here is the lodown. my best run was 14.418 sec @96.06 mph in the 1/4 mile. that is a improvement from my last outing. on aug 31 my time was 15.3 @ 92 mph

i did impress myself. i ran 5 times today. logging every run. 1 st run against another elcamino (black). it sounded good with the bumbling sounding V8. i took it by 1/2 sec. my 3rd run was against a new 2007 Z07 corvette. i thought to myself, he is going to kill me! when we took it was even for a short while and then something happened that just shocked me. i took him. he got farther away behind until mid track and the he started to storm. i took him by 1.25 sec. what fun.
my engine is still falling down when in 3rd gear at about 4200 rpm. the fuel pressure goes wacky. its weird. the fuel pressure climbs steady with boost to about 50 lbs and 4200 rpm, at which time the pressure starts changing quickly between 47-50. i wonder if the injectors are at the end of their duty cycle? the injector pulse width it happens at is 22.8ms. they are 42 lb ford / bosch injectors. i have my best run on youtube now also. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz2UaM3i-gQ . tom

That's good you improved!
What are you 60 fts?
How much boost are you getting now?
Did the stiffer wastegate spring help?
Did your larger tires help w/traction?

It looks like(on the video) you are not spinning the tires & you are not getting boost very fast?

Not sure why your FP is dropping,bad regulator?
Your FP should not drop ,even if you are 100% duty cycle on your injectors.

What micron filters are you running before & after your fuel pump? Are you running an external pump?
How about your fuel pick up in your gas tank? Original sock still there?
Pick up still in stock location?
Do you have a full tank of gas, 1/2, 1/4 ???

I thought you have bigger injectors ready to install?

If you do,, you have to retune all over again.

MBHD

hank
it was a bunch of fun
my 60's did slightly improve from a 2.3-.4 to a 2.2 whippey.
boost still goes no higher but it builds much quicker, 12 psi max. the 6-9 lb spring helps get the boost quicker, it can definately be felt in my rear also.
the bigger tires help in a few ways. somewhayt better off the line traction, better 1st-2nd shift traction and bigger diameter to give slightly taller gearing.
the fuel pressure thing is weird. you can feel the engine pulling hard until 4200 rpm or about 85 mph, then it just starts to lose power. in the data logs i can see the boost falling off, which correspsonds with what i see on the fuel pressure gauge @ same time.
i am running a sumped stock tank. using a large 3/8 carb filter before the pump. the pump is good for 255 lpm of fuel. and a filter after the pump. i am going to take the fittings off of the pump and drill them out. they are a restriction in my eyes. 3/8 barb and only 3/16 orifice maybe 1/4 at the most. maybe that is it.
i bet if i can hold pressure with fuel then i can easily break into the 13's.
i am running 42 lb injectors now, i also have 50's to pop in when i am ready. the tuning is really easy and would take about 1 hr. tom

Your engine might be detonating?
Causing the timeing to retard,then,, that will cause the boost to drop,having boost drop,,, that will give your boost reference less pressure to your FPR, that will cause your fuel pressure to drop.

On your data logs,can you see if it is pulling timeing @ 4200 RPM @85 MPH = 3rd gear)?? Top of second???
Just a thought.

Maybe your carb fuel filter is a restriction???
I am using a 10 micron filter before my pump & a 100 micron after the pump.


If you can run a 1.8-1.9 60 ft ,youll be running 13's. Get those Mickey thompson drag radials!!!!

My Stock 1997 extra cab 350 Silverado 4900 lb truck runs 2.3-2.4 60 ft times w/3:42 gears.
@ 3000ft elevation track. It makes an advertized HP of 250

You really need to work on your 60 ft times to run 13's
Two cents thrown :-)

MBHD

you may be onto something. i have been bumping up the timing. for instance bottom of 2nd gear is 3200 rpm, boost is 5.6psi timing is 27 degrees, it revs to 4700, at that point boost is 11.5psi and timing is 25 degrees. 3rd is simular with 5.6psi to start but only builds to about 10psi because of lower rpms and this problem.
i did change to another very nice non restrictive filter. the carb one failed on the suction end of the pump.
swap meets are coming up, maybe i'll find some nice drag radials.

tlowe I.I.#1716,,,,,,,

On your data logs,can you see if it is pulling timeing @ 4200 RPM @85 MPH = 3rd gear)?? Top of second???
Because you did install a knock sensor correct??
Sometimes those knock sensors pick up engine noise,pistons loose,exhaust banging on something ,etc,,..

MBHD

hank, i started hooking up the knock kit. its not done yet. so the timing is as ihave it set as above. there is no timing drop @4200 rpm. upon looking over the motor close, i found 2 potential exhaust leaks. one manifold bolt had backed out and more importatly 1 turbo flange bolt was 1.5 turns loose. both are tight now.
can't test tonight and it also rained.

one other theory is maybe my intake air temp is causing problems. before the run it starts @ 100- 105 degrees, thru the run it rises to 115-120 at the end. maybe i am seeing detonation? i am going to pull out some timing at the top end of rpm scale and also try it.

maybe it's time to get one of those methanol injection kits.

i also wish i was not the only one working out all these bugs. i do like the challenge.

tom

tlowe,,,
it could very well be detonating & you will not hear it.
Most guys that turn up the boost & do not want to worry about detonation,they put in straight C16 116 octane leaded race fuel.

115 -120 MAT are not too high,but,,, the temps should be going down during your 1/4 mile pass.

At least the guys w/there Syclones & Typhoons report there temps go down during a 1/4 mile blast w/a air to air intercooler.

My factory air to water intercooler,,, M.A.T,,,temps go up to 115 to 120 on a 90 degree day during a 1/4 mile pass.

The (stock)timeing is about 20 degrees total w/14 psi of boost pressure,, but it also has a knock sensor,incase it starts to knock. Different engine but, it kinda gets you an idea about where your timeing should be.

I have heard of guys runnin @ the most 27 degrees total timeing & 25 psi boost pressure & using a lot of methanol w/a stock small turbo.

I data log my runs & can see the ECU take out timeing by showing the KR's (knock retard),,& when this is happening,& I see it showing 6 degrees(for example) of KR,I cannot hear any detonation. So,just to say, it's saving my engine.

Guys have installed a methanol injection systems on there SY/Ty's & have report say 70-80F or even less temps when running methanol @ W.O.T. running 20-24 psi boost pressure.

I activated my Aquamist( W/methanol) system for about 5-8 seconds @ 1800 RPM & touched my intake manifold,& it felt like it was about 50 degrees F
on an 85 degree day.

I have not hooked up my Diacom to see the manifold air temp drops,but I am certain it gets really cold.

I would seriously look into a methanol injection kit,race fuel is very pricey.

MBHD

guy's
i am disappointed with you. atleast those with experience with forced induction.

i think my newest problem is spark blow out. my spark is generated by a new, stock hei. the plugs are gapped @ .050. i think that is it.

tonight i regapped the plugs and added a 50kv coil. did not test it yet.

lookout here come 13's

after that more boost. tom

Hey now,now,,,,don't blame us, .050 gap is a big no no,(esp w/a stock HEI)I thought you would have known that???
Besides, you never told us you gapped your plugs @ .050,,, where did you get an idea to do that big a gap???

I can't tell you everything.Or do I have to??? LOL

Oh, BTW,, when you use an alky injection system,close your gap up more.

MBHD

not blaming you guys, just bringing up this because it should have been a #1 on even my list. they are gapped @ .035 now.

stock hei's do well with big gaps, normally.

i also got to get this thing weighed.
any guess's? tom

TLOWE,,,,

Only one year that I know of GM gapped there plugs @ .050,,, 1975.First year of HEI,, IIRC?

Then they stopped that the following year because they were having a hard time passing smog tests w/a .050 plug gap.

I still run a .040 gap & run up to 21 psi of boost pressure w/an Aquamist alky injection,,, but I also have an MSD 6A box.

My 65 SS Malibu weighed 3420
It had disc brakes,Rally steel wheels,1.250" front sway bar.

I put a 350 SBC & a turbo 350 trans.
Also had A/C.

I will guess yours will weigh 3200 - 3300 LBS
What do you think it weighs?

MBHD

good news. took it out today. the problem is gone. it runs smooth and strong thru all gears.

took it to the local grainery to weigh. comes in at 3650 with me in it. driving it to take my boy to soccer. seeya. tom

TLowe,,,
So, 3650? I will guess you weigh 200??
I would think an Elky would be lighter than a Malibu?
Is a 292 heavier than a standard SBC 350?
Maybe with the turbo exhaust manifold,turbo,intercooler, plumbing etc.

A 250 is supposed to be 100 LBS lighter than a standard SBC.
Glad that closing the plug gap fixed it.

When is the next rack day to run it again?

MBHD

i weigh around 180
700r4 is heavier than any 1965 tranny
12" front disc b body spindles
12 bolt rear w disc brakes
turbo/manifold/intercooler/and a 292 all add up.

i may get one more run at a track this year. they are closing soon and my schedule does not meet with theirs. tom

I bet your elky stops good w/those size rotors.

Is a 700R4 heavyier than a turbo 400? Not sure??

Hope you can beat your last run since you have it running better.
Goodluck!


MBHD

hi guy's, another update.

recently was hearing a vacum leak at idle. engine still runs good. found the leak. it was my intake gasket blowing out. i do not recomend the felpro 1257 race intake gasket. here are a couple of pic's.



got it replaced with a felpro stock type gasket now.

hopefully taking it to the track this weekend one last time. i will bump the wastegate to closer to 9 psi. look out here come 13's. tom

Tlowe,,

I forgot, what psi spring do you have in your wastegate?

Buy some race gas like C16 ,116 Octane & really turn up the boost.
Since it might be the last track day to go,what the heck?

MBHD

hey guy's, not trying to go out with a bang.

i do hope to keep improving the combo. so far i am very happy with the improvements i have achieved.

on second thought only 20 psi to get 12's. hummm. maybe next year. i am having too much fun as is. you just can't wipe the grin from my face when people ask me what under the hood and i pop it to show them.

hank , i do have only the 6-9 lb spring in, and it is set more toward 7 psi.
tom

tlowe,

I do not want to see you go out in a bang,just @ least a 13 second timeslip.

C16 will be hard for your engine to detonate,it would be a safe fuel for you to use to crank up the timing & boost & not worry too much about detonating.
Goodluck @ the track,& get some slicks!!!!

MBHD

well, here is the low down.

at home on sat morn and turned up the wastegate with a 6-9 lb spring. added 5 gallon sunoco gas. drove to town and topped off with 92 octane.

this is at 11am. racing starts at 12 in cedarfalls , it is a 1/2 drive. i have to be back by 2:15 for my boy's soccer game and i am a line coach.

so i am leaving town at a normal pace and suddenly the engine loses power and struggles to pull itself. i look at the fuel pressure guage and see about 5 psi. i pull into a parking lot and stop everything. pop the hood and see fuel sprayed every where. it seems that one of my injector bosses had slipped toward the intake by the fuel pressure pushing the fuel injector toward it. i had installed my injector bosses with epoxy, it was supposed to impervious to gas and good to 450 heat. well now the intake is getting pulled and they will be welded. i'll get a better run yet. tom

tlowe,
That bites!
I remember your pic of your intake,& was wondering how your injector bungs were being held in? I remember not seeing any welds.

What octane Sunoco was it?

Were you going to race it this weekend?
Goodluck when you do!

MBHD

now that the weather is straightening out and i have more time for my projects, here is some more on my motor/car.

i recently made a siamesed port divider, it sticks into the intake between my injectors about 2 " and the other way it goes between the valves. this is to more evenly distribute the fuel to each cylinder. on a naturally asperated engine this would kill airflow, but on a turbo/ boosted engine there is excess airflow. well it turned out really good. performance is about the same at the top, but the idle and low end is 50% better. thats huge.

last night i worked on my wastegate and pulled the silve 6-8 lb spring and put in the 9-13 lb one. now the engine is practically at 6 lbs in a instant and than creeps up higher in boost with rpms. wow the boost can really wake a motor up!

tonight i ran some video's of it with my daughters camera and put them on youtube. seach for 1965 elcamino turbo inline. you will find my vid's. i may adjust the wastegate to a higher setting as i get used to the higher boost at a lower rpm.

i am still being very conservative with the timing and will bring it up as time progress's. later . tom

Seriously,,,, look into a methanol injection set-up.
You will never go back to just pump gas or race gas for that matter.
http://www.alkycontrol.com/
http://www.rjcracing.com/SMC_Alcohol_Injection/smc_alcohol_injection.html
http://www.snowperformance.net/

Two cents thrown ,,,,again :-)

Tom,
just wondering where you have your timing set to, & what is the max you have gone w/the total timing?

MBHD

hank, i will get some snap shots of my setup and post them. the data that is. tom

In gasoline engines, as with any intercooler, this suppresses detonation so more power producing boost and timing can be utilized. Water, with its high latent heat of vaporization cools the intake charge and combustion. Methanol cools the charge and combustion but also acts like an extremely high octane fuel (some researchers claim as high as 120 octane) as well as adding more oxygen to combustion. Snow performance

Guys with there Syclones & Typhoons like to use 100% methanol,including me.

Sounds good,can't wait!

MBHD

hank, here is the spark map and a datalog. the vertical line on datalog represents the real time #'s at that point.

Are you getting 24-25 degrees max total under full boost?

Do you have a chart that shows boost pressure, A/F ratio, all in one?

I am new to this stuff.

MBHD

Is there a way to get Image Shack to enlarge those pictures? I'm a photobucket user so I'm not very up on how 'IS' works.

Thanks.

nexrussian, try clicking on the image.

hank, the data log shows all the stuff you asked for.
a/f is yellow
spark the lower red
map (boost) upper red
rpm green

the vertical line represents the real time capture, the rest is a whole full throttle blast. tom

OK,I see it,just been so tired w/the kids & work.
Thanks

MBHD

Try holding the Ctrl button on keyboard & move your wheel on your mouse.

The colors are hard to see,clicking on the image does nothing.
@ least it does nothing on my comp.

MBHD

Thank you all, I tried all that and the only thing I have found to work (on this end) is to click on the image while the rest of the page is loading, then hit the "stop" button. If I let it load completely it gets smaller, and I can't read it.

FWIW Control & Scroll makes the page header "New to ImageShack? See More Images By This User" bigger and smaller, but has no effect on the size of the image in question (again, on this end, kinda wierd)

Thanks again for the help.

just settled down after getting back from the inliners convention. had a really nice time with a great bunch of guy's.

i did get to take it to a chassis dyno while in davenport. found out the timing could go higher.
also went to the dragstrip on fri evening and on sunday. i have alot more to tell you all.

there is a new best @ the track 13.8 @ 99mph. old best was 14.4@ 96mph. i go thru in drive and it shifts @ 4750 rpm.

any guess's on what the dyno says @ the tires?

Let us know your boost you were running & if you had race gas?

MBHD

I'll guess before you tell us. 320 HP & 400 FT lbs torque.

hank,
the boost is a around 9 psi @ 3200rpm and 12 psi @ the end of the pull. i did mix in 5 gallons of sunoco 110 to 10 gallons 91 pump gas. tom

I would think you are about 320-350 HP range & 400-450 ft lbs torque?
Torque will go up quite a bit w/more boost.
My 4.3 V-6 made 550 ft lbs of torque @ 3000 RPM @ 21 PSI.
So,,,,,,,what are your HP & torque numbers?
Also how much total timeing did you go up to?

MBHD

well, got some more news. took it to a chassis dyno (dynomite brand) i believe it was a eddy current unit.



1st run 235 hp @ 4550 rpm torq was above 300 from 2700-4700 rpm. max tq was 320
2nd run 243 hp with 1 more degree of timing 26 total
3 rd run 240hp @ 27 degrees timing.




took it to the track and hit a alltime new fast time . i am now solidly into the 13's with a 13.8 @ 99.95 mph. i need to work more on launch technique for sure.



this is done with a 1650 stall converter and in drive, i let the trans do the shifting @ 4750 rpm. the stall needs to go higher as the car tries to push while at the line and giving it gas. not bad for a 6 and a street car that cruises 2500rpm @ 80 mph getting 18 mpg @ same speed.
while on dyno, i shook the torq converter bolts loose. tightened them and it was ok. on sunday they shook loose again and damaged the flywheel and torq converter. i will be getting a converter with alittle more stall now.

sometime later this summer i am going to pull out the intake bolt in lumps. i will also leave in port dividers as this makes the engine more reponsive. hopefully the increase of the intake port section area with boost will increase power. we will see. tom

tom I thought i read on another site you had 400hp on that motor? and your only showing 240 at the rear wheels? Thats a pretty big lose if that is the case. but nice to see your into the 13s now. i still think you need to widen that port with that divder in there,instead of removing the lump.But that is your call.& just my 2cents

I was 77 HP & 80 ft lbs off, Damm, was I off LOL.
I have been trying to tell you in the past you need a looser converter, but @ least now you are going to get one. :-)

I would look into a stall of 2100-2400 w/a lock-up type converter.
http://www.tcsperformance.com/ makes a 9/11 converter & I believe Rusty can make you whatever stall you want.

If you want something more responsive I would leave the lumps in & switch to a Offy intake manifold,,, I know,I know more stuff to weld & so on but,just something to think about.

I am not sure if you have tried both 4 bbl manifolds,but there is a huge difference in throttle response,the Offy being the more responsive one.
With the Clifford,it has always been a manifold that is sluggish on power down low.

With your car being a low RPM street vehicle,low stall torque converter I would think IMO the Offy would be a better choice.

The runners on the Clifford are huge too big for a low RPM street engine :-)


MBHD

what happens if you right-click on the image and select 'view image?'

Tom,

Have you considered building 3 straight runners into a common plenum? The air has to bend 90 deg twice to get into your existing manifold.. there is a good chance of a flow restriction.

M

Tlowe,,,Tom ,
hello,,,,,,,,
me & a friend were looking @ your graph on the HP , A/F , Tq
and we noticed as your A/F ratio gets richer 3700 RPM & your HP is following the A/F ratio.
It looks like it might be getting too rich ,,or your are running out of air.

I would think the 62-1 has enough air to feed your engine, so maybe the intake windows might be too small w/your deviders you installed?

Basically , wondering if you tried to lean it out when running on the dyno?

Your HP should be much higher I would think, & torque.
It seems a tad rich,but maybe you tried to lean it out allready?

Also, on your timeing chart where is 0 vacuum,80 or 90 on the map sensor?
Full boost is 180 on the map
9 in full vacuum?
If so it looks like your timeing w/no boost ,full vacuum, 2000 RPM looks like a default settings?
I would think you need more timeing @ full vacuum or part throttle cruise, it is showing only 24 degrees total timeing under full vacuum, or am I reading this incorrectly?

MBHD

efi
i have given thought to all the angles the air has to travel before seeing a piston. the entire intake track would need to be rehashed. i am not against it, it is not what i want right now with driving time at hand. maybe this long cold winter when i have more time.


hank,
i started to lean it out on the dyno. the 2nd and third runs leaned up the top end after 4K rpm. i was going to do more when the convertor bolts decided not to play nice.

as far as the spark timing thing. here goes my explanation:
180 is full boost (appro 12 psi)
92 is engine shut off (no vacum)
9 is full vacum
while at cruise rpm or even at idle my engine never sees more than 15 inchs of vacum. @ cruise it is more like 10 in.
which equates to a map reading of 36- 45 on the chart.

i have given thought to opening the head to intake port area. here is what i am going to do.

first fix the convertor and flywheel.

second, pull intake and open the intake/head port as wide and tall as it will go. presently it is the size of the gasket. i will also open up the gasket.

i think with the opening it will allow more airflow, thus more torq will be generated.

i was never surprised by my hp #'s on the dyno. hp is a calculation derived from torq and rpm. hp will never be higher than tq before 5250 rpm on any engine because of the calculation. my dynoing quit at 4800 rpm. i do expect to get the tq # higher without jumping the boost higher. i just have to keep on tuning it.

tlowe,
I forgot when you had boost controll issues, what finally cured that?
A larger turbine housing,milling the devider on the SPA manifold?

What is the cam specs you are using?

Have you had any detonation?

What converter stall are you looking at?

The only engine I can somewhat compare to as far as turbocharged is dynoing my 4.3 V-6 Chevy.

The turbo was smaller than yours,the heads flow worse than the stock chevy inline head.
Cam is about 175 degrees degrees duration @ .050 & .370 lift or there abouts, really weak.

Stock, they made 280 HP @ the engine & 360 ft lbs of torque,w/14 PSI of boost pressure.

I had done a chip,catback exhaust,little tweaks to the turbo,K&N cold air kit,Aquamist alky injection. Total timeing is about 22-24 degree total.

As stated before I made 386 HP @ 4500 RPM & 550 ft lbs torque @ 3000 RPM I also was running 21 PSI of boost pressure.

This figure was using the dynopack dyno, the one that bolts directly to your wheel hubs.

My A/F ratio was 13 or there abouts, (a little lean)

MBHD

i am now running a turbonetics 62-1 P trim .82 housing. with that turbo and the timing up higher the boost does not creep as much. my manifold has always been milled.
looking at getting a 2K rpm converter. that is high enough for me.

i would have to disagree about the 4.3 head flowing worse than a siamesed ported inline. our worse thing going against us is the siamesed port.
with that said you had real good #'s coming from your engine.

consider this. my motor is now putting down easily 2 times what a stock 292 would do with better fuel mileage and still has docile street manners (when you can keep your foot out of it). tom

I thought we discussed earlier that your wastegate was only seeing pressure from 3 cylinders because your manifold was devided & I told your to mill the devider down so your wastgate would see pressure from all 6 cylinders? Yes, no?

As far as only a 2000 RPM converter,,,,,where does your engine start to build boost pressure?
2000 RPM is pretty low. If it is a lock-up type,you still will get same mileage when it is locked-up.

MBHD

hank, i think my boost is under pretty good control now. i have 9 lbs at 2700 rpm and 12 at 4800 rpm. i would have to look at a log to see the very lowest rpm it comes in.

i am not going to put a tq converter with higher than 2k stall. it will just build excess heat when the lockup is not used. i am fine with the performance that it will give me. maybe if i were to build a non O/D drag car then a big stall would be fine for me.

my manifold is slightly milled for the divider. the ones i had been selling had a larger milled divider. the batch of manifolds i have now has no milling. the boost control has more to do with proper turbo exhaust wheel and housing selection than the divider. tom

Tom,
I do know about turbine wheel size & housing size has a lot to do with boost control,that is why when you told me you had a .63 turbine housing I said to you that is way too small.

I was wondering IIRC,,,,your turbo manifold was devided & I suggested to mill the manifold devider & was wondering if you had milled it then tried it if it made any difference?

Or did you just install the larger turbine housing,or both?

All the SPA manifolds were devided like mine is & Douglas told me that is the way they come from them.
He talked w/SPA & they told Douglas,that milling the devider did not make any difference because they had no boost control issues with the wastegate only seeing 3 cylinders.

The only comparasion I can talk about is from my Syclone.
The factory put in a 2100 RPM stall converter.

For best performance it would have been better if it was a 2400 RPM,or there abouts.

The stock trannys(700R4) do not run hot at all w/a 2100 converter. It really dives like a standard low rpm torque converter. Just by driveing my Syclone around normal, you would thick the stall is around 1400-1600 RPM

The only time I get 2100 RPM is if I stomp on the brakes hard,give it a bit of throttle & watch the boost build up to 4 psi,from that point it will just stay @ 2100 rpm even if I go to 15 psi of boost pressure w/the brakes applied.

I know if my Syclone had a 2400 rpm converter I would be running 11's.

I just stay w/the stock one, just to see how fast I can go w/it.

I was wondering what size rear wheel cylinders you have?
One of the first upgrades I did to my Syclone is install 7/8's rear wheel cylinders.

Being all stock I could only get about 3-4 PSI of boost pressure,then it would push through the brakes.

After I installed the 7/8" rear wheel cylinders I can hold 15-20 psi of boost pressure,huge improvement!!

Hope you get it to a track soon w/your looser converter,it will make a big difference.

Goodluck w/it & your tunning.

MBHD
_________________________
69 Camaro 250 EFI, turbo,12 port aluminum head.

hank ,
i am running 4 wheel disc brakes
12" in front and 10.5 in rear. the car stops great as is.

one problem a person could have with too big of rear stopping force is the rear would break loose in a panic stop and cause a uncontrolled skid.
i have mine proportioned to not cause this. hope to soon get to fix the Elco and get it back on the road. never have enough time for everything. tom

Tom,
That might be part of the problem why you cannot hold your brakes on the line.?
You have disc's in the rear,less pad material grabbing the disc as compared to drums.

Maybe when you go to the track next you can proportion more pressure to the rear so they will hold better & allow you to build more boost,or just install a hydraboost brake setup?
But you would need a hyd pump.

The Syclone has ABS,no uncontrolled panic stops.

Talk about no time to work on your own projects,,,,my 2.5 & 1.5 year old boys are my projects.

MBHD

i do have the adjustable valve, maybe i'll try biasing more to the rear.
today i am cleaning the shop. 1 years worth of projects completed and the remains laying everywhere. can't do it in a day. and have my neighbors dead car in my way. tom

One other thing still needed ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,sticky tires :-)


MBHD

got them coming! 27-8-15 goodyears.

YES!!!!!

MBHD

Hey Tom, I'll help you get rid of some of those goodies your trippin' over.................... We can load 'em in my car and I'll take them away.

can I, huh, can I?

xea
maybe next time you will need to drive a car with a bigger trunk. that one would fill up pretty quick.

p.s. my new tires are here. get them mounted soon. now if only the car was fixed. tom

Do you need help when you pull it apart? Let me know, and I can be there. I downloaded the instructions for the Holley 950 yesterday and have enjoyed reading it.

I've got a Blazer and a 12' long trailer..........

What was the original trim of your turbo? I always thought building boost as quickly as possible is a good thing. Where did you get your BOV?

Tom... just looking at your early posts and pics... were did you get that turbo exhaust manifold?

i bought mine from innovative turbo in arizona. now i sell them at a much lower price than i purchased mine for. if anyone is interested in one, they are listed in the classifieds at the left of screen and i have them on ebay now and again.
the manifold itself is made in brazil by SPA Turbo. they specifically machine mine to my specs now. tom

I picked one up last week and its gorgeous :). I was quite impressed with the things I saw.

Where did you get it?

Got any pics?

MBHD

I live close enough to Tom to drive over. I purchased it from him and got to see his Elky (and some other really cool stuff). No pictures yet, I'm starting from scratch.

ok guy's, time for another update.

i don't know why i waited so long to put in a higher stall! man the car takes off like a different engine is in there. 1st gear is gone in a instant and burning thru 2nd. the engine is much more responsive now. the converter is a 2025 stall as written on the box. and oh boy does it work. some neighbors were on their porch enjoying the calm evening and then i show up in front of the house and do a stalled take off. i bet they think i've lost it. you can't wipe the grin off my face. tom

Tom, I can't find your ad in the classifieds???????

here is the ad again. tom

http://www.inliners.org/cgi-bin/classifi...query=retrieval

you know what Im thinking right?

time for a new video.

i'll do another video for sure. how about one from you? tom

Tom

I run a 2400 stall convertor with kelvar clutches in my Plymouth that you saw at the convention, even pulling the roadster on the trailer behind it the highest tempature I have ever seen was 145 F. I only lock in fourth but never notice any slippage in other gears. Once in forth it stays locked unless drops below 23 mph, shifts or I brake. I had a vacumm control on convertor when I first built it but had to much shutteling so changed to an electronic control. I run a 3.50 nine inch ford with 4 wheel disks and a power booster. 11" on front and 11.4 on rear with full line pressure to all four wheels. I have no rear lock up problems even on a panic stop. I was a little worried about trans temps when I built the Plymouth since 700R4 seem to be a little temp sensitive so I did three things 1 a good cooler 2 an external filter 3 a tempature gauge so I can watch it. Four years all types driving also pulling trailer no problems. I also averaged 20 MPG towing home from Iowa. My Plymouth weighs almost the sme as your Elcamino.

big bill I.I.#4698
I tried to convince him of a higher stall,but no use, he thinks the trans will run hot w/that much stall,& get poor gas mileage.

MBHD

I dont have any interesting inline six videos. Have many on U-tube with different exhaust configurations but thats more goofing around than anything. Now if this was a bent 8 forum, I gots a couple interesting stories.

went to the track last night. what a great evening, mild temps, track was warm and racing started at 630 pm. there was a small group of racers and i went thru 8 times. i sure i could have easily made 10-12 runs.
ran 3 times to see what the converter would change for me. all i noticed for the 3 runs was a .1 reduction in the 60' times. so from a 2.2 to a 2.1 or so.

with the next 5 runs i changed the rear tires for the stickier set and lighter rims. the car now will tick off 2.0 60' times consistantly, but that was it. i was cutting some really good lights, generally from a .075- a .3. there was 1 that was .003 . all said and done i am maxed out at a 8.805 in the 1/8@ 79 mph. our track is a 1/4 mile track but they will not let us run it because the floods wrecked the far end.

this winter i am going to modify my head to open up the ports and gain back some more performance. still going to go with the dividers in the ports as they help witht the fuel injection.

made a few guy's scratch their head as to why a straight 6 can blow away the v8 camaros and mustang gt's. one mustang i ran would take me off the line and then i would just walk by him waving the whole way. asked him if he was taking off hard and the letting off. he just grumbled. tom

Tom,

When I was at BVille I left some interesting items with Jerry W. that could help your air flow on the intake side...

Try a trans brake, it also wont load your suspension up like when you try to footbrake it, and will make your suspension react more naturally!

People that I have talked with,a trans brake is not a good thing to have on a 7004R. They like to blow up parts.

I had told Tom, to dial in more pressure to his rear brakes w/his proportioning valve when he is @ the track just to see how if the rear brakes will hold & build boost pressure.

If he cannot build boost from the start of a 1/4 mile blast,it will never ET that well.
He has slicks now,but no boost build up on the launch.

My Syclone does consistant 1.78 - 1.82 60 ft w/the original 1991 original dried out tires.But,,, I can build 5,10,15 psi of boost pressure on the launch.

MBHD

I just tested the stall on my parents 1999 Olds Intriege.
3.8 V-6
It stalls to 2600. Wow & to think the factory put that high of stall in & still knock down 28-30 MPG & not overheat the trans!!!!!

MBHD

Isn't that a locup converter? Weren't they variable stall (computer controlled) by then as well?

it is a lockup convertor. i tell it when to lockup. they are not variable stall though.

hank, after driving the car around quite a bit. have noticed a few things about the convertor i have.

taking off at wide open is great. engine rpms pop right up, performance is better.

taking off at part throttle feels weird. engine goes right to about 2k rpm and stays there while car slowly accellerates. it is like it slides thru the gears. i do not like that. if anyone has driven a forklift around and noticed how the engine revs and the machine does not move quickly will know what i mean. maybe my convertor has a higher stall. but it sure feels slippery at low throttle take offs. when the lockup hits then all is ok. for the person in town though i feel the trans would get real hot. tom

Tom,
it sounds like your converter might not be that efficient as it could be.
What brand torque converter did you end up installing?
I think there are a few tricks you can do to the trans to help with the slashy/slippery shifts.

Up to a certain stall,you can use a standard trans,but after about 2600-2800 stall range ,some people recommend higher trans oil pressure,.501 valve,& other things.plus a shift kit always helps. I am not a tranny expert,but my friend is.

If you can hold the brake pedal,,, really mash on it & try to build up boost,what rpm does it go to before the wheels start breaking loose? That should tell you approx stall.

The trick thing to do on Syclones & Typhoons is to lockup the torque converter as soon as it shifts into second gear.

It droped my ET .2-.3 tenths, & about 3 MPH.
The 4.3 V-6 in my truck is just a torquey engine that cannot rev @ all,you really do not need to go more than 4500-4800 max RPM

Here are the V-4.3 cyl head flow tests numbers.

BOTH sets of numbers are with 2.02 and 1.60 valves.
Stock heads have 1.94" intake 1.50" exhaust.

before, intake: 65,133,163,174,178
before, exhaust: 51,102,131,139,141
Pretty weak,,,,cam is like .370 lift.173 degrees duration @ .050

Just curoius where you installed the knock sensor,any pics?

MBHD

Tlowe,


Found the flow of the stock 1991 4.3 V-6 1.94" intake Syclone head.

The stock heads flow:

(164 @ .500" - Stock)

How does that compare to the 1.72" or 1.94" siamesed head?


MBHD

Not so good! But one thing is different. The individual runners help by design to get a better (even ) fuel air distribution to each cylinder.
You must have been looking for a long time. Spend some time getting that camaro on the road. Tom

Tlowe ,
could you post a quick reference of what the stock 1.72" & 1.94" intake valve siamesed head flows? @ .500

I was not looking for a long time,LOL,I just was looking @ old posts & found it quickly on another forum.

Dont get me more upset about my Camaro, ,,,having kids & a wife w/a different work schedule leaves little to no time for my projects.

Hopefully when my kids get a little older I can have them help me.
Thanks
MBHD

Too busy right now for that. Got a engine to dyno. Tom

Been a while since I been here, what happend to your 292?

That turbo 292 is still running strong. No problems with it, lately. Hard to keep the mice out of that Elco in the winter. I hate mice!

You got any inline action going on?

No inline projects for me right now....

good to see your still making head way on the turbo inline engine. Whats the goal with the 250's hp/tq or 1/4 mile time?


Good luck!

1.72" intake valve stock head.Numbers By Tlowe
050" lift 27.3 cfm
.100" lift 52 cfm
.200" lift 103 cfm
.300" lift 149.5 cfm
.400" lift 164.6 cfm
.500" lift 168.5 cfm

Expect the same airflow on 1987-1995 SBC truck heads ,those are the worse heads for flow,,but even w/that bad aiflow,my Syclone has run 12.0 in the 1/4,just goes to show,when you are forcing air through highly restrictive cyl heads, it's still possible to run OK.
Side note,,guys w/there Syclones swapped to better flowing 1996 & newer Vortec heads & run approx 1/2 second faster in the 1/4 mile,so good flowing heads,are a must if you want to go fast.

Just a quick reference
MBHD

Looks like it is real close to the stock 1.72" valve head with the bolt bosses still in the head.

Yes it is,,,but look @ the Syclone head has a 1.94" valve,talk about lousy airflow.

Yeah, thats not very good in comparison is it. But like you said, it still does good when its blown.

Read all 15 pages and have a few questions 1., is there a turbo cam available over the counter now? 2. could a V6 ECM be used to control the injectors for a tow rig. 3. Can an inline pump provide enough fuel pressure for the injectors? If I use this setup in my '58 sedan delivery they have a one year only gas tank shared with the wagon only, so no aftermarket tanks.

You are a quick reader!

I have the cams instock.

The factory GM computers would not allow you to really tune the engine. The Holley one I use allows plenty of tuning capabilities. And it is easy to do.

I use a inline fuel pump for my application, it will supply all the fuel ever needed. You will most probably need add a sump to the tank to get rid of fuel slosh. Use the old fuel line for the return.

Here is a update for everyone else.
After dynoing the 292 and the 250, I have finally got some time to work on the ELCO.

A reminder, My engine is multi port fuel injected and I found that it ran better with divider plates added to the intake ports. This inturn made the intake port window too small, yet the car responded well and recorded a time of 13.8 in the 1/4 mile. This is a street car, just weighed this week @ 3700 with me in it. It is ran down the track in drive and shifts at 4800 RPM

Well now I have machined a head with a much larger intake port. It is taller and wider. A much better designed divider is installed and the engine was running fine before the convention but I was chicken to drive it 1100 miles each way going 75 mph not broken in or untested. Over the last 2 weeks, many miles have been put on it. The tune has been improved and let me tell you , the engine has changed! Used to run 11-12 PSI at full boost with old head, now it runs 7 PSI and has more power. Hope to take it to the track Fri night for test and tune runs. Will also see about getting that boost pumped back up. Tom

BEN10
My son on computer,he's 4 ,sorry guys.

What are the specs on your cams you sell? I was the high bidder on your 1.94 head on ebay this weekend but didn't reach the reserve. Could you tell me the reserve to see if I'm getting close? I've pretty much decided to go with the dividers on my engine also. So far anyway. Thanks Harry.

PM me. Thanks Tom

Been following this thread for a long time. I would have thought that given the engines fairly large displacement coupled to a turbo and proper trans that even an Elco would be running minimum high 11s in the 1/4 mile.
What are your expectations if you have all the Drag Race tools, transbrake, slicks, proper suspension. I mean i know its a street car, but what do you think it will eventually run?

Don't feel bad,I know exactly what your thinking.


MBHD

Need pics of the mods,this post is worthless w/out pics IMO.

MBHD

Fred,
Eventually, would like to see this Elco in the 12's. I have another Elco to be kept on a strick diet and setup more for racing. Who knows, Harry (Turbo6) has his car in the 9's. Tom

Too busy working in the shop. Teaching the kids how to wrench.

Here are pics of the modified port as installed on my car. The divider was made by Strokersix from this BRD
Modified intake port



Stock intake port

Modified Clifford intake


Notice how the injectors aim straight at the correct port. I also had to make my own intake gaskets from material ordered from McMaster Carr.
Cranked up the wastegate last night, could not test because of rain. Maybe tonight will get to. Fri evening is test and tune at track. Tom

How come they don't look like they are centered up in the ports?same with the cut-out on the intake?Or is it just they way the photo's were taken?

The dividers are centered on the head bolt axes.

Larry,
It may just be the angle of the pic. Tried to port the intake to be symetrical. And as Strokersix has said the divider is centered on the bolt boss hole. The port is much larger as seen in the pics than the stock clifford intake entry. There is not much material left to seal with a gasket, thus custom cut gaskets of good material. There is only about 3/16 of gasket sealing in the upper corners of intake port. So far so good.

well that is what i thought but it just didnt look that way.for the way one side of the port looks much straighter then the other.Looking at the second photo.(In small copy espcialy).
Anyway no bigge.

Now Larry,,,,
can you cut straight & center w/a sawsall?

That's a joke son!.Don't you get it? LOL FogHorn Leghorn

Test drove the Elco tonight. Whew!! 10PSI instantly. It does not seem like the same motor. The tq really seemed to overwhelm the trans too. Had to retune the injectors for the boost and found them nearly maxed out. But the engine is happy and can't wait till Fri eve. Tires blow off easily! Makes 1st gear feel useless. Tom

Tom

Watch you don't lean out on the top end.... if your at 95% DC or worse - better back off a bit until you can get more fuel in.

EFI-DIY,
Before reading your comment, had allready lowered the wastegate setting to a more moderate boost. Upon looking at the data logs, the boost was approaching 15 PSI!

Got to the track, long story, short one is , no new bests, yet. Something happened to the engine. I believe one or more of the intake dividers may have moved. Going to open up the intake and take a peek. Could not get boost to come up like the night before. Every trip down the track was low 14's but just could not muster up the boost. Even tightening up the WG provided no more boost. Keep you guy's posted.

Here is a funny one for you. When going thru tech, they have you open the hood. They look for a catch can for anti freeze and any other hokey stuff that may cause liquid on the track. The young (25 ish) tech guy ask's what kind of motor is that? He had never seen one.

I was concerned about that. I have a couple ideas to improve divider stability. Send some photos to me when you get it opened up and we'll figure out what to do next.

Mike

If the devider/s moved & caused a restriction,that would not limit your boost,actually it might actully show an increase in boost.

Thats part of the reason why my Syclone makes so much boost, the heads are restrictive.

When switching to better flowing heads,your boost will drop & normally you would make more power w/less boost pressure.

So when you have opened up your head as you did,w/out changing anything else,you might have lost some boost pressure.

Tlowe Quote: "Even tightening up the WG provided no more boost"

When just tightning or adjusting your wastegate spring, that will normally only adjust your base boost pressure.
"CarCraft turbo expert/guru. Get this Elky to run like it should.

My 3600 Truck (no driver) is on the verge of 11's,does not need a diet,just more boost! It's a street car w/A/C fully loaded.

Tlowe,don't you have an electronic boost controller?


MBHD

Hank,
Not quite sure how to take your comments.

Your cyclone is / was a factory designed turbo setup. Everything about the fuel/ spark/ engine was also designed for it to run fast with a turbo and EFI.

I am working with a engine never designed for:
EFI
Turbo
Hot rodding in general
No one's footsteps to follow either.

You also know that I do not use a electronic boost controller, what's up with the bashing? Maybe I am taking your comments way out of context.
My setup has a manually adjusted waste gate. I am confident that the problem will be found and solved, and then other people may be able to learn from what I do.
Got to go back out and get some work done.

I think you are taking my coments out of context.
"Get this Elky to run like it should".
Those are words of encouragment,& I guess pushy.

I do not know your complete set-up,that is why I asked.
I do not recall you ever stating the only way you control boost by just the wastegate spring & adjusting it.. I must have missed that.

I would suggest to purchase an electronic boost controller since I know now you do not have one.

The Syclones are not factory GM designed vehicles,a company named Pas,(not in business any longer) modified/outfitted standard,Sonoma trucks.The turbo is a mitsubishi Jap turbo.Pas ordered them.

My Syclone used to run 14's,if you call that fast.?

The Syclone engine is just an engine as any other engine.
Almost any engine can be made to EFI & turbo.

Mike Kirby has been fuel injecting inline 6 siamesed port heads for years,w/great success w/no intake port deviders.

Only thing different in the Syclone longblock over a 1991 Chevy Astro van is lower compression pistons,that's it.Which BTW,was never designed to turbo either.

Hope you find out your problems w/boost.

Your Elky shuld run a lot better than it does,not sure if you realize that.
Not putting you down,your Elky has or should have a lot more potential.

MBHD

Ok, I'm chilled. I have a feeling one or more of the plates have turned / bent and are covering up/ restricting intake flow. While tuning on Thurs eve, the engine had a few hiccups ( backfires) at part throttle and those in the past have caused blown intake gaskets. Imagine the pressure in the intake.

I drove it yest afternoon to pick up the daughter from work and at low throttles it runs good, it like a cork has been thrown in it for boost. Tom

Another thing about running an electronic boost controller is that it it will cause your turbo to spool up faster,something to consider.


MBHD

from the looks of the past photos they look! as if they're just sitting in the ports not pined in in anyway shap or form.The Old port dividers had a divit in the rear of the head to help hold them from moving.The head bolt also went down through the middle of it. Yours don't look to have anyway of holding it in place.So yeah my guess they moved one way or another Maybe even Fell over in the port.Between heat cycle and pressure anything could have no dout happened.

?????? if the waste gate is closed and not opening until boost level is achieved how does a controller help with spool time???

In my book that is a function of exhaust gas mass, Delta P across the turbine, A/R ratio on the housing...

I can see it helping to cut the boost back during launch to stop blowing the tires off.. but faster spool... explain please.

Well, worked on the Elco this afternoon. Pulled the intake, All dividers are in the exact same place I put them. That makes me feel better. Also my special intake gaskets with very little contact area are still holding up fine.
Checked compression and have 150 on all cylinders. So no problems found!
Put it back together and fired it up, it is running better again!

Seems while looking it all over, the crap rebuilt dist is a two piece design. The long part of the housing is pressed onto the bottom of dist base. There is movement at this location, none in the spinning direction but some in the fore/ aft and to/ from engine. Nothing makes contact inside dist when this happens. I figure the module was getting a BAD ground thru this moving junction. So I tied another ground thru the inside of dist, drilled a hole down and attached ground to lower dist housing. Engine seems to be much happier when driving and can now hit the wanted 10 PSI boost.

It always boils down to the small things, no fire, no BOOST! It did not even miss, just seemed weak.


Hank,
Not understanding the boost controller giving more boost quicker. The WG stays closed until the desired boost is achieved.
Maybe the electronic ones can open faster and therefor allow the gate to stay closed a moment longer. I am happy with my boost control, it seems to work very well.

[/quote]

?????? if the waste gate is closed and not opening until boost level is achieved how does a controller help with spool time???

In my book that is a function of exhaust gas mass, Delta P across the turbine, A/R ratio on the housing...

I can see it helping to cut the boost back during launch to stop blowing the tires off.. but faster spool... explain please. [/quote]

If you could see your wastegate while boosting,you would see the wastegate opening a little before it actually will open up more to the setting/spring pressure it is set to.

So, say you have a 10 psi wastegate spring in your wastegate.
You would think the wastegate will stay closed just up to 10 psi,well ,it does not,it will be creeping open before 10 psi is reached.

With an electronic boost controller,it will hold the wastegate completely close until the desired setting is reached.
Therefore,your turbo will spool faster up to the desired setting,because the wastegate is completly closed(forcing all exhaust gasses through the turbine housing & not bypassing the turbine wheel) & not partially creeping open.

Not sure if I explained that correct?

MBHD

Waste gates are not digital, they begin to crack (leak) considerably before their "official" setting, and holding it completely closed helps spool.
If you really needed to, the fix is either a more expensive gate, or rely on a Hobbs switch for a signal to a solenoid-operated gate, which will not move until the trigger signal is transmitted.

Speaking as a nuclear submarine mechanic, a wastegate is nothing but a relief valve. Relief valves have two factors called blowdown and accumulation. They are not on/off transistor logic circuit type things. I don't know how to describe these without a very long post. Basically, there is a crack point, the set point, and the full open point. Accumulation is the difference in pressure between the crack point and the pressure which the valve maintains stable pressure (the boost setpoint). Adding an electronic boost controller, or a manual one that has a little ball check in it like I'm using, minimizes the accumulation by not sending pressure to the wastegate diaphragm until the setpoint is reached. By not cracking the valve open early, this improves boost response. This is what Hank is referring to. Sorry for the long post and I hope you are still awake.

Thank you for that 56er.

My Syclones stock wastegate used to have too much creep & would open prematurely w/the stock wastegate actuator. I installed a stiffer actuator,that helped out quit a bit.

Next, I will install one of these to control the boost better than the factory ECU.
http://www.theboostdepot.com/index.php?p...emart&Itemid=26
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AEM-Tru-B...sQ5fAccessories

MBHD

Tlowe,

is the Elky ready for another 1/4 mile blast w/the new deviders?
It's running good,you have slicks,lets see what it can do!

I can only run my Syclone & it's not an inline, so it does not count & I am pretty sure people here do not want to hear about a V-6.

MBHD

I am ready to try it again. Just got back from a 2 week vaca. Test and tunes are on Friday eves and my Fri's are all booked up with something else.

Been driving it alot and having a ball. Wife is quicker to put her seatbelt on too. It is a noticible difference in running. The new dividers allowed a much leaner run and the fuel mileage is up. So is the throttle response.

Power has to be higher than it was a few years ago.

So when are all your parts going to come together for the 9 second street 69 camaro?

Not for a long time.
Have a 3 & 4 year old & wife works different shifts than I do.
Thanks for asking.

When is that drag race only 65 going to be put together?
What's that going to run?
Going w/the Deppe aluminum block,12 port aluminum Duggan/Sissell head,4.125" bore,turbo, what?

I did have a little time to install my new Alky control http://alkycontrol.com/
set-up on my Syclone,got to run 11's!
Hopefully w/a good tune it will.

MBHD

Here, you can see how an electronic boost controller works.
There are 4 videos,this is the first
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f5geWatdb4&playnext=1&videos=MT0WwhSVUS8

MBHD

Have not had a chance to work on that drag elco. Been too busy with setting up the 292 and 250 engines to dyno. Along with building heads, making lumps, Inliner conventions (FUN STUFF), building rears and family stuff, work and vacations. My minutes are almost all accounted for.
Got some plans to get started on it again, have collected a few parts.
Hope it will run 15's, that way I won't be disapointed. Not sure on which motor. It will also be street legal (so it can be tested more).

Hmmm 15's in the 1/4,,that's not bad.

All my time is spoken for.
I'm having vaca now so I can work on some of my projects,never enough time.

Can't wait tell the boys can help out.

MBHD

Get all the time with them and help from them you can. They'll be grown and gone before you know it. Beater

Thank you! I have access to alot of these parts, so this may be an option for me.

Would it be possible to get a list of parts needed to duplicate your TBI setup? I want to duplicate it in my 69 Chevy pickup. That setup has to be the cleanest looking one I've seen.

And to clarify, I meant the parts that aren't clearly available on your website. Like the TB part number, etc.

My intake was machined to accept injector bungs, the fuel rail is from Ross fuel ijection ( it is a dash 6), the throttle body is a stock 5.3 Chevy truck V8 part.
My control computer is a Holley Commander 950. The distributor is from a 81 chevy truck with Calif emmisions ( electronic timing control).
This system was pieced together by me.
The turbo manifold is available from DEI, the company that sells heat wrap products. Tom

Just read through this whole thread. Good stuff! What happened with the Elky?

Sitting in my shop. Hardly drove it last year because of a huge storm and resulting damage to my farm. This year ,been busy with family, other peoples engine stuff and a 65 4dr wagon for added fun.

Back to the top!

Hey tome loved reading this build had a few questions about the divided intake ports

How reatricted would the ports be running dividers with lumps i don't have the capibilities nor the knowledge to machine my 292 head like you have

Josh, dividing the ports and installing lumps will definately create a much smaller port cross section. This is a whole other frontier that hasn't been explored fully, but should. Im sure a smaller lump made specific for dividers can help, or just simply no lump at all because dividing the port will increase the port velocity, maybe to the same rate or more than the lump also does, so a lump might not be needed in this mod.

But would thw ahort turn radious that is created by the lump itsself not neccessary or is that were the velocity action happens due to the lump taking up volume and creating a tighter threshhold

Well in theory, the lump does help create and direct the air over the short side radius. But long before the lump was ever developed or conceived, racers were still setting records and winning without it, and they have also set records after the lumps were considered the standard without using them also. Tom also dyno tested that comparison and I think he reposted the results in another post recently regarding another question. But again, the divided port concept is relatively untested on so many levels and could open up a whole new generation of mods that puts the lumps on the shelf like an 8 track tape. There is already plenty of evidence showing and proving it works both with and without lumps.

I would love to see and hear about the results of using them with lumps i know some people around here are very set in the ways of the intake threshhold being to small but exactly how much would ou need if you had bigger valves a decent amount of porting no millin out so pretty much a stock intake port woth a lump and small devider what if the lump was shorter heigth wise i really don't want to pull my head off again to remove the lumps i worked hard to perfect but i it means i have to to run the multiport injection that i want to do i guess i will do it

Well like I said, that is a whole area that remains to be discovered. Tom didn't dyno test a divided port head, only a lump and no lump type head.

If you want some more info you can ask Turbo-6 about when he divided his intake ports. He had dynoed both divided & undivided intake port heads.

IIRC, when running the divided ports, he had to turn up the boost another 10 PSI to make the same HP as an undivided port.

Also, If I have my information correct, Mr Hot Rod set a new record w/an old Sissell Lump port head. 8.9 N/A.

MBHD

Darren Davis went that fast 25 years ago with his N/A 250 in a roadster just like that in Comp Eliminator with a Sissell lump head too and set many NHRA records. He wanted to divide the ports and Kirby told him it would never work and not to do it. So he took his Sissell head and ground all the brass out of it all the way down to the floor of the ports and made dividers that welded on to the intake and went almost 2 tenths faster in the quarter...setting another record!

So does it boil down to divided no lump and undevided lump i'll have to measure my port and see how mant square inches the port opening would be at the smallest spot that seems to be what holds people back it sounds i will be talking to turbo 6 unless he chimes in here and see what hes got to say

I appreciate all the help this is far from over!

Since there is really not much data on this, it really is one of those mods that "your results" may vary from what others have done. You'll just have to find what works best for your build.

In the name of equal fuel distribution i'm sure there is some give and take for us garage builders if beed be i guess i could have my head sent out to be milled... But tht costs money seems every one is happy with opening the toof and sides if you did that with a shorter lump but still a lump in it you would beable o keep the velocity hae a good short turn radius an still achieve a usalbe port window

Hmmm if only i had the knowledge and tools like you have scott/tom

Thanks for the kind words Josh. I think the shorter lump with a divider can help. Its might be a balance between give and take like you said.

I would need o cut up a head to get some dimensions close whoch i would really hate to do hmmm how to make shorter lumps while still having a good short turn radius also i could build the keeper for the dividers into the lumps that way once they are bolted in all you would need to utilies is the idea of the pipe plug on top

Do you remember the saying what comes first the chicken or the egg.

This is what the port argument is about.

To make power you need air and fuel, the port needs to work equally well on both aspects.

I have found the HP level you want dictates the port you need.

A stock port is not good for much, this is why Kay Sissel made the ingenious Bump Port. It helped the velocity and direction of air flow to the back of the valve, therefore more air flow.
This arrangement worked to a point of about 400 to 500 HP. On a race engine. If this is your goal use a Bump Port. But at this HP level the undivided port starts to show fuel distribution problems.

If you want to make more HP. You must switch to a Kirby Sissel 12 port the best bolt on head on the market ever. All the older versions of a 12 port were not any good in comparison to Mike's head.

Back in 1985 I had a bump port head with my turbo worked great until I tried to make over 500 HP. Then all my issues started, Cylinder #1 and #6 would run lean and could not fix them without making all others too rich. I stuck with the stock head way too long trying to fix the problem, to no benefit. I divided the stock ports but had to up the boost to compensate for the poor flow, it just made too much heat to try and control. Even tried a 12 port from Brazil GM had made, just too small of ports like my divided head, worked a little better but not enough to make good power.

Finally bit the bullet and ordered the Kirby head, wished I had done it 20 years ago.

P.S. Back in 1965 we raced a 292 gasser that ran good for it's time with a Hilborn Injector and a divided head not a lot HP as today, but did that baby hit a note !

Just ask anyone today what would happen if you cut the dividers out of a chevy head and they would look at you as if you were nuts, people tried it in the early 60's just ask some old guys.

It does not matter if you use a carb or injection, it's just the injection is so precise it shows up more as a driveability issue.

Josh, here is a picture of one of our professionally ported brazed lump heads. The port dimensions are 2.540"W x 1.625"H. This will give you some idea on how much you can open up the intake ports to reshape and resize them to compensate for a divider.

Turbo-6 thanks for the great story and lots of info i am only looking to make 400 as a sissel street 12 port is probably rather expensive this being said i already have a good amount of money.. Well say invested in the head i already own plus parts that match to that head like the spa turbo manifoldand such hmmm have a bit of thinking to do on that anyidea what it costs to get a good 12 port head now adays? And i' just looking for good air flow and even fuel distribution thats why i was thinking a divided multiport injection for the turboed 292..

Scott that is a really nice looking lump port i just have the bolt ins with stock intake size now milling done ..

Honestly you guys

How far must one go for decent flow high hp street 292 with good milage? I know the 12 port is probably the best but ban for buck wise whats every one think

Also if i went that way how hard would it be to turbocharge. Would i still want to?

Ideas and thought are always welcome

Turbocharging a 12 port is no more trouble than a stock head.

Since you have a bump port and a spa exhaust.

With what you have just add a thin divider to the bump port head 1/8 inch wide to the shape of the port tack weld and epoxy seal to the port which can be removed anytime you need to remove the head just a very very thin ribbon of epoxy to seal is what will help. Also if you can divide the intake port this will also help, you want to keep the cylinders from effecting each other so the longer the better.This setup should be good for 400+ HP

Thinking about your bolt in bump maybe you could weld the divider to the bump before installing it, but seal it to the port.

Maybe the guys making bolt in bumps may think about this as an option the divider as part of the bump? Nope this won't work because you need to bolt down the head. But you could add a tube to the divider and bump and use a normal bolt or stud, I have done this in the past it's just the tube has to be the exact length to work. Also I have bolted the bumps through the port side, then they can be removed with no trouble.

Just food for thought.

So with out the head being milled any, a divider will work with the lump i stalled

Do you have any pictures of the installs or attempts you have made? If so i would really appreciate those

Thanks t 6 we could deffinatwly get this figured out. Together

The problem with the current bolt-in lumps is that they are designed to fit a stock unported intake port. So adding a divider will naturally require the ports to be widened by some amount and even possibly raised to compensate for the narrow window that is created by doing it. Also maybe a completely new design lump that is also a little shorter. The last style of brazed in lumps we raced was shorter than the bolt-in style is already, and didn't have a teardrop face shape and produced the most HP and airflow gain over the previous ones, so there is a lot of upgrading and updating that can be done to them if someone really wanted to make a better mousetrap.

Hmmm i would deffinately be interested in horter lumps but anyone that does head work seems to be east coast? I have to see the freight ticket from az to georgia hmmm but then againn haha

Josh,

As I was working today (day dreaming) I remembered years ago I had a bolted in divider with a stock port just opened up a little, no lump port, I used a normal allen bolt for a head bolt. The divider had a notch to clear the bolt head and on the top I had a notched solid disk, like a washer without a hole but a grove in the bottom to hold the divider and a pipe plug to hold all in place. worked good cheap and easy to do.

If you have a stock head with the post still in the head, just make a 3/16 divider to go behind the post tack weld in a couple of places . Then a piece 3/16 X 1/4 to go in front of the post epoxy all in place and your done. This is how I did my last head before the new 12 port Kirby head.

I will try and post some pictures of this head and other dividers styles I have run in the past.

Thanks for the insight i would love to see pictures i will be eagerly waiting

I was also wondering if i could take the lump put them on like a plane sander and shorter then then maybe notch a grove 1/8" all the way down the middle that it could slip into while still going over the bolt i'm not very talked at drawing or explaining but maybe that makes sense ... I hope lol

Yeah, shouldn't be a problem. And if you screw it up, tell Tom you have a "defective" one and to send you another one!

So if i shortened the lumps woul i still have to mill the port wider and taller?

I guess thats kind of loaded because not much has been had feom this subject i guess you could say but basic port volume should answer the question right or no??

Im trying to remember how thick those are. I made some billet ones before for a race ported head similar to the brazed ones. But yes, shortening them up should help to a degree, but keep in mind that these lumps will only fit the stock port width, especially at the intake port entry. But it might benefit to gain back some port area that is lost with the divider. Start with shortening the lumps and making the divider and fitting it into the port and see what that looks like first. Then post pics and we can ponder what needs to happen next.

The stock head with the divider as I stated above had a big enough port to make over 600 HP and you only want 400 HP.

Remember the original idea of the bump port was not only to make a short side radius but to make the port smaller, Look at a stock small block chevy head at the push rod area it's not much bigger than a stock divided inline head. You measure the smallest area on a port for the air speed on a head not the largest.

This modification takes about 2-3 hrs and your done. No head bolt issues, and that was with 1.94 intake valves. No porting just a stock head with the bigger valves and dividers.

With a turbo that's all you need to make 400 HP at about 12# boost.

The turbo more than makes up for any port design, just do it, and you will be happy.

So with the lump and port stock sizes with a devider is not to small of a port to run that way?

And be effiient i should say while still creating horse power i have 1.94 in and 1.6 exh valves so that šould help the situation with aftermarket cam and40 over

He's saying he did not use lumps on his divided port head. He left the bolt bosses intact and added the divider behind and in front of the boss. The bolt boss is going to be a much larger obstruction in the port than a lump will be, so from what he is saying, the lump may be fine "as is" for your projected power level. However, after you drive 400 HP around for a couple of weeks its going to feel like a golf cart and your going to want more. So plan ahead, instead of for the here and now.

Haha gosh i hope my truck doesn't feel like a golf cart well if i run straight lumps i guess the mixed match is the lumps with multiport injection ? The plot thickens ....

I think i should research short turn radiuss and see whats up there maybe being blown makes that shape not matter? I believe thats been said before

You'd be surprised how quickly you get used to your power and want more of it.

I think for an injected build a divided port is going to be more beneficial than a lump is going to be because you eliminate the fuel robbing concerns between adjoining cylinders. And obviously, Harry has made some good power without even using lumps at all, as have many other racers past and present.

The post is not really an obstruction since the wall across from the divider widens out as it passes the post.

Any way how do you post pictures on this board?

Do you have a photobucket or imageshack account. You need one of those or similar to be a hosting site to post pics.

Oh goody picturess i think i'm going to divide the ports ad remove the lumps i'm stillgoing to ty an shave the lumps down and see what i can do or i might just sell them for some spare cash i don't know yet though decisions decisions

Might even keep them

Here are some pictures of the divided port. The first picture is the bolt in components. The following 3 pictures are how it is epoxied into the head.

They're not showing up. You have to create a link through a hosting site.

Are you sure they show when I login.

I can see them OK too.

T-6 Thanks for all the tech.

I can see them they look fantasic really nice work t -6 looks really smooth. And pictures of the bolt it one in action? Since i already have the bolt boss removed and what did you ise to epoxy them with? Also you said you welded them? With a mig welder?

Ok I can see them now. Looks good.

Welded with mig 2-3 tacks per side on head with post.
Old style bolt in not welded or epoxied, could epoxy if you want just a little to seal.

The epoxy is a marine brand that the area head porter uses but can't remember the name, will try and find out for you, I know it's very expensive.

Welded with mig 2-3 tacks per side on head with stock post.
Old style bolt in not welded or epoxied, could epoxy if you want just a little to seal.

The epoxy is a marine brand that the area head porter uses but can't remember the name, will try and find out for you, I know it's very expensive.

Now does the bolt in lunp have that flare in the back like the two piece? If so how does one go about makin the flare in the rear also is there anything else holding the divider in besides the grooved washer and does that washer fit down intothe hold that the pipe plug would go into?

If you had and pictures of that i would love to see

Thanks t-6 for all the help and tech info can't wait to build these, hopefully they look as good as yours.

The bolt-in lump doesn't go all the way to the rear of the port wall, they only stop about 3/4 of the way in. There are many ways to improve the flow on the divided port idea. The slotted washer fits on the topside of the divider in the original head bolt boss and the screw-in plug holds it in place. My friend Darren's port dividers were much thinner, and this ports were already opened up wider for racing. They were already over 320-ish CFM before he divided them. There is a lot of untapped potential in exploring this.

Oops sorry scott i didn't meanti say lumps i was asking about the bolt in deviders

Ok, no problem. I also think the divided siamese port head will have the ability to greatly exceed the potential of a Brazilian 12 port head because the ports are already larger than that head and can be further enlarged and may even give a bolt-in lump port head a run for its money. I may have to pull one out an do some testing as well. Im fixing to start a turbo build, so this may give me an option to consider.

I made a pattern and had the dividers cast a long time ago.

You could take tin and make a wing shape in the valve pocket it would look like a Y from the top view this would help register it in the port.

If you have a lump in your head just take a thin 1/16 scrap of metal, after the head is installed shape it to the port and let the plug at the top of the old bolt boss hold it in place maybe put a tang that registers in the allen head. You could even let it stick out of the port and extend into the manifold. Anything will help it's just the better the seal the better it will work.

Just curious what did the head flow after the ports were divided?

Having a head that flows 320ish cfm, how good would his head work for a daily driver?

Thanks.

MBHD

Don't know what it flowed afterward, he was just trying to satisfy his own curiosity and didn't have anything to lose since he was already a record holder and was going to move up the ladder to the Pro Stock truck class.
He was already making over 500 HP with a N/A 250, and a brazed head with this type of mods were usually water dogs, and probably not a good choice for a street head for that reason.

Yeah, I kind of figured it would not be a good head for a daily driver.

What's nice about the Kirby 12 port aluminum head is that it flows 320 CFM on a street port job that is good for a daily driver.
Sure it's pricey, but it's different, like our inline engine are (not mainstream) not the norm either, and there are not many Kirby heads out there out there.

MBHD

MBHD

Well there not pricey at all I don't think, especially for the level of performance it takes you to from where the bolt-in lump fall short. Your only going to go so fast with a $70 dollar piece of aluminum bolted inside the head. Im sure Sissell considered that at the beginning, the first prototype that was sent to him for him to test was a piece of sheetmetal that was held in place between the head and intake manifold gasket surface. He just refined it into the brazed lump he later became noted for.

Wht does a sissel head go for anyways?

Up date just got the head off today will pull the lumps out tomorrow and see if i can get some prototype dividers going

They start at $3500 and go up from there. Not sure what I will sell mine for once I begin to cast them, but that seems to be the average price for that type of quality piece.

Here are some pics of the upper lumps currently in my engine.

I shaped & made them out of solid billet aluminum, years ago.

Made to increase port velocity. And they do work.

They ended up being to short in height.
But maybe you guys get the idea?








This is how I wanted them to somewhat look like. (Clay pictured)




MBHD

Looks interesting. Why didn't you try to develop it further?

I just installed them onto my current engine in the car.


I did not know how I could make a plug, or casting or have them made.

I just lost interest after I saw the Sissell/Duggan 12 port head years before I even made these upper lumps., Always said to myself, someday I will have a 12 port aluminum head.

If anyone else would like to look into this type of mod, (upper lumps), Is say go for it & post your findings, not just head flow numbers, that's only part of a combination.

I think they would be worth looking into. Never seen anyone make them.

I did flow test my head w/the clay models installed & the flow numbers did improve. Not a huge gain mind you, but more of a gain noted in the 1/4 mile & racing against my friends street/strip cars.
The improvement was most likely due because w/the upper lumps installed the port velocity went up.

The clay model I posted is more what I wanted them to look like but also wanted the long turn radius side to reach closer the the valves for a better flow path.

MBHD

I'd be curious to know how they worked along with the bolt-in lumps. I pretty much have already decided to build a turbo 250 with a divided port head and try to develop that concept further and save my other 12 Port heads for a couple of 292 projects afterwards.

Don't forget you are limiting yourself in HP potential a true 12 port head has much more it it.

Don't do what I have done and chase HP down a dead end, if it's for the street it will be OK otherwise go to 12 port to start.

The cost is more up front but it's worth the price.

It's for a class record Harry and it requires a cast iron head for that class. I know the 12 Port head is vastly superior, but im saving those heads for different engine builds in a couple of other classes.

Well have two lums out and prototypes built(cardboard cutout) not professional like scott;) hould have the 3rd done tomorrow an i got some ideas on how to keep it in place but we shall see how it goes

I am looking into installing a water supply line for my turbocharger. Also need a fab a return line.
Where should I have the return water go into?

I think you guys w/292's tap off of the water pump?

Problem w/a 250 water pump there is not extra plug where I can tap into it.

Any suggestions guys?

Thank you

MBHD

can you use the drain plug at the rear lower end in the block? and back to the head or T stat housing?

That sounds like it would work.
I just never seen how the guys are plumbing there turbos for water.
Thanks

MBHD

I agree with Twisted . Use the drain hole to feed the pressurized coolant and come out the top of turbo and route to the head or a thermostat housing.

OK, sounds like that will work.

Thanks again.

MBHD