d

efi, will this be a street worthy engine or for racing only? so far it is quite a list of quality parts.
i did not see the turbo manifold at steedspeed. tom

" Design/mockup in progress for the turbo exhaust manifold"
Meaning it is in the works

Tom,

It will see 80% street and 20% race. I just hate breaking parts, and in the long run its cheaper to build it right the first time, especially around here where the labor cost is 50% of the build.

I'm working on the 1st cut of the exhaust manifold now and will be heading up to Steedspeed next week. The more of the design work that I can do the faster Leen can finish the design and turn it into a part.

Marc

Finished the design for the exhaust manifold today...
http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ll8tcmmainbodyjd3.jpg

The head flange, turbo flange and the BOV flange are seperate parts that will get welded on so they don't show on the the main body.

Here's a video of how the manifold will be made...

http://www.youtube.com/steedspeedturbo

and a link to Chris the magical metal fusion wizard.... http://www.performance-shop.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=42598.60

look near the bottom of the page for the manifolds..

nice

One lower intake runner design under consideration..

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9534/runner90uc2.jpg

delete

[

72# injectors - rec'd today... www.sprayitracing.com - good prices really fast shipping.

Crower rods - ready to ship
J&E pistons/rings - ready to ship Friday
Turbo intake flange in house
Darton sleeves - ready to ship tomorrow

So the bulk of the hard parts are ready to ship.

[/QB][/QUOTE]

How much are you planning on pulling out of this engine? Do you have the Megasquirt to run the stock engine with some boost along with a homebuilt EFI? What about the cam phasing? Will the blanks you mentioned use this or be installed at a permanent degree? Any idea what kind of boost the stock setup can withstand? I realize 10: 1 is a lot of compression but if you could bleed some compression with overlap via the cam phaser would it be possible to run 6-7lbs on a stock block & Pistons?

I'm interested in this engine, not for racing but as a hot street alternative...........jb

All good questions:
"Do you have the Megasquirt to run the stock engine with some boost along with a homebuilt EFI? "

I'm running just megasquirt, its boost friendly. Right now its running the stock NA engine thats in the truck.

"What about the cam phasing? Will the blanks you mentioned use this or be installed at a permanent degree?"

Right now the cam phaser is not connected - eventually I hope to control it - just need the software in megasquirt to control it ( I wish my programming skills were better) I'm waiting for the s/w to get done.


"Any idea what kind of boost the stock setup can withstand? I realize 10: 1 is a lot of compression but if you could bleed some compression with overlap via the cam phaser would it be possible to run 6-7lbs on a stock block & Pistons?"

Not sure but with EFI folks are running a lot more base compression. A local shop is supercharging Ls series engines without a piston change upto 10 PSI - not sure if I'd be that brave. 6-7 sound doable but not having done it yet I'm not going to say yes for sure. Your correct that some base compression could be dropped by moving the exhaust cam to a tighter overlap centerline...

One thing I've found out from folks on the trailvoy.com site is the stock GM PCM is not boost friendly. They seem stuck on wanting to keep the GM PCM.

"
I'm interested in this engine, not for racing but as a hot street alternative."

Same here just wanted to push the engine a bit - I've had grumpy 600HP SBC engines before that went like stink but were not practical - no driveability. Hopefully I can cruise this on low boost with pump gas and then turn the wick up when the need arises running either 105 unleaded or methonal and pump gas .. still messing with the fuel system on paper...

Thank you for your reply. I have several engines to choose from including a late model 5.3 LS engine. I bought several 4.6 ford throttle bodies for a project and never used them would two of them be too much on the 4.2 with a intake similar to yours? I'd love to run three but I'm afraid it would be too touchy even with the throttle linkage slowed down.....jb

JB,

It would depend on the id of the TB. If they are 3" then one is enough for NA motor. One thing to keep in mind is the TB is passing only air unlike a carb where the throttle bore are passing wet flow... well the fuel displaces a given volume of air.


Missed one part of your first question... I have a GT40-88 garrett - so as much as I can get out of that turbo...

I believe the stock 4.6 is a 65mm Throttle body.
Since the injectors are in the head, and these have a square flange and a TPS I'd like to use them. I think I have 8 of these things, and depending on the firing order using one t-body per pair would look pretty killer providing the engine was naturally aspirated. I also have some Ford lightning pickup two throat throttle bodies that have fairly small ID's

Do you plan on a log type manifold for your intercooler to head connection? I'd like to talk to you about your M-squirt and edis setup would you e-mail me at Boogiemanz1@YAHOO.COM jb

Darton sleeves - rec'd... they look really good.

Just got to get this kitchen renovation done ( need the brownie points...) before I can get back to the matter at hand...

Been a while... work has kept me away.

Block is getting machined. Cams are getting ground at Comp. I have all the parts to do the short block now. Some minor parts remain to be ordered. This week I'm getting the cores done for the intake manifold.

Still lots to do.

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/5765/p6160345mv6.jpg

SLA lower runners picked up tonight...

#3&4 are duplicates

Next up casting a silicone rubber mold of the SLA parts to get a negative, then pour a wax positive >>>> foundry lost wax process hopefully by Aug I'll have alum runners.

Those look really nice!

MBHD

intake update

Started casting wax positives today... 1st batch - well they were melted down had sags and air bubbles, 2nd batch much better. Seems if the wax is too hot or too cold it does weird things..

#2 runner came out fine..

http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p7180374kg5.jpg

In addition to the intake manifold lower runners, the turbo manifold walked off the CNC this week so today I did a trial install.... no more vaporware parts they are real..

http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p7190375na4.jpg

That turbo manifold looks really nice also !
Price? Can they make more?

MBHD

How many would you like ? Now that the programing has been done its a matter of getting material and firing up the mill.

With high temperature coating .. about $1150 in qty. 1. As with any machined parts the cost goes down with qty. so an order of 10 would be about $1000 (or 10 tanks of gas...!) I'd have to confirm pricing with Steed speed but this is close.

One company that does BMW inline 6 uses another billet manifold that Leen makes and they are pushing 1000 HP out of 3500 cc.

Here is a shot of all 6 wax positives on the intake flange.


7190380go9.jpg][/URL]


next step is making plaster negatives, then melt the wax out and pour in hot metal...

Now I understand why the commercial shops wanted $4500 to take the rapid prototype models and deliver metal parts. I'm at 16 hours and counting just for 2 sets of the wax positives.

Update time....

Short block parts should be ready to pick up from the machine shop tomorrow. Thursday I should cast the first runner. Exhaust manifold gets tig this week, the rest of the exhaust system is 95% complete, waiting for the V band parts and the flex coupling hopefully they show up this week.

Progress being made but its slow.

Block and crank are home, doing final wash on the block tomorrow then start assembly. Exhaust manifold is going to the coating house for high temp coating - help keep the heat in the manifold.

The block assembly is going to take a while as I need to generate crank timing diagrams for the internal crank trigger wheel.

Tried an initial pour on the intake runner today, well not perfect but now know what changes to make in the mold.. got a huge gas bubble - not good.

Lots to do...

efi-diy,

I forgot what turbo you are going to use.
Also,how much HP are you looking to get?

MBHD

I'm going to start with a Garrett GT40 turbo. As for HP .. well once I get the initial teething problems out of the way, I'll turn up the boost until the 4l70E transmission starts to show signs of distress then back off. At that point I guess over the winter it will be time to build a 4l80E and a motor plate.

The engine internals (pistons, rods, sleeves) were spec'd for 800hp. More than that and I think the lower end might start distorting and showing up in the main bearings. Folks in the know say Self built a monster main cap girdle that ties into the pan rail for high HP app's ( Cunningham's motor). Too bad Glen is very quiet about these things.

Sounds like it will be a beast of an engine when you get done w/it.
Did you see Douglas's girdle I posted?

What vehicle is your 4.2 going into?
Is it going to be a street car?

MBHD

That's quite the girdle, if I start having bearing issues I can see one coming this way.

The engine initially is going into my 51 GMC and yes its a street truck.

Start of engine assembly...

bottom end ...



Top of the block showing the Darton sleeves installed...

Now you know Im gonna be asking about a video when this thing gets rolling.

Looking good.

Short block is 2/3rd's assembled...

Is the bottom end stock, main girdle,main caps?
What does the crank look like?
MBHD

Bottom end is stock except for stronger main cap locating sleeves which have enough clearance designed in to allow use of 7/16 ARP studs. The main caps and girdle are OEM with minor mod's.

The crank is a pretty stout part, the main journals are 2.75" dia. and are cross drilled from GM. My guess is that GM looked at the 194/292 crank and decided to stiffen the 4200 to minimize harmonics. A couple of drag racers are spinning this engine to > 9000 RPM! Enough said.

Once I get back from the salt I'll put up more pix.

A bit of a delay....

So depending on what arrives here first:

-turbo exhaust V band flanges/gaskets
or
-the turbo head

will dictate which engine will see boost first, we are quickly running out of season here and I really want to drive the truck under boost.

The '06 short block will go together this weekend (finally), the head is done except for a !@#$! mix up on valve guide seals - hopefully the parts are not weeks away.

The rest of the turbo set up is done except for a brace which I'll fabricate this weekend.

I think we need some pics posted ,,,not just words. :-)

MBHD

i'm waiting for the video's! tom

Me too...

Well I had some dis-appointing news on Friday, the special valve seals have been discontinued (no room for the OEM style), so this has effectively squashed getting the turbo motor ready before the weather turns unless some NOS parts are found. I'd like to ask for a few folks help, to see if your local parts warehouse has stock.

The seals were made by Beck/Arnley PN 022-1518.

So in light of this I've started installing the turbo on the early motor that already in the truck. Once the turbo exhaust flange is arrives and the required gaskets it will be a days work to finish the turbo install and fire the truck. I've removed the big waste gate spring so it should open about 4-5 psi which is fine for the stock engine. After ensuring the turbo and tune up are ok I might turn the wick up to 7-8 PSI.

Wait and see...

If you find the seals - need 6 packages of 4 seals please PM me.

Thanks

Marc

id be happy with a video of the stocker and a turbo.

Hey Marc, what are the actual dimensions you are trying to fit? I probably can't get the Beck Arnley ones, Bud Dad's a distibutor for Cometic, they sell valve seals, but by dimension only (Stem O.D, Gide O.D. and if it's that tight, probably the overall heigth you have to work with for the seal and the largest outside diameter of the seal that will safely fit inside your springs).

Well after a long discussion with a fellow inliner that provided orginal beck arnley PN, we found that I was given the wrong beck anrley p/n. Crap... 2 weeks gone by .. oh well.

I think we'll be good now, thanks to all that offered to help.

Whatever I can do to help, it's one of the reason's I'm here, it seems most here are willing to when they can. I got tired of 'other places' that weren't like that.

Marc, I had written the numbers down and was planning to begin a hunt from work tomorrow. I know a couple of other parts guys that often have what most don't. Good luck we are following you!
Nexxussian, exactly!!!
Tim, this board is working great. Thanks!

flow numbers for '06 my head...


Lift Intake cfm Exhaust cfm

100 91.3 95.3
200 176.9 160.1
300 239.1 187.3
400 295.4 199.9
450 309.8 212.1

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5595/p9090451ic2.jpg

turbo manifold installed on the existing motor in the truck

Hank,

When I get the actual flow sheet I'll scan and post it.. I just have the above numbers for now.. my guess is a 28" it'll come with the head hope fully soon...

cool

just get that snail bolted on and get her plumbed. it is going to snow for you, oh too soon. tom

SSSSSSSSHHHHHHHH it might hear ya and come early....


The mountains are already white...

Yeah, we had some 'termination dust' earlier (in the mountains) but either I'm ignoring it, or some of it melted (gotta be from all the rain ). Good luck with that.

Got word today the final parts fell off the CNC lathe and into the shipping box, so if all goes well I'll have them Sat. AM ! And it appears the the remaining gaskets are waiting at the post office.!!!

YEA - going to get the turbo spin'in....


Oh ya...

Mr. Steed http://steedspeed.com/turbo_manifolds ( mr billet turbo manifold) has sorted out the pricing on the maniofld, and is ready to start up making them. First to order get a significant price discount..

He's offering a lifetime warranty to the initial purchaser.

Is that a group buy, or just order your own kind of thing?

Either, a group buy would likely get a better price.

Well tomorrow the turbo will turn for real - all the heavy work is done - minor stuff left - mainly vacumm hoses. I have to convert back to the onboard Megasquirt MAP sensor, the stock GM one only goes upto 120KPa (about 3 psi) and the quarter master missed order the right sensor.... oh well it'll work fine.

More tomorrow..

Well,

After 2 long day/nights - its running with boost. 2 very short shake down runs shows its behaving, now the tuning starts.

The wastegate is opening at 8 psi which is fine for the early stock engine. I got off the throttle almost right away when the boost came up - but the turbo spooled enough to be noticeable. Once I get the tuning done I'll do a video and post it.

One thing that is noticeable the engine is quieter - the intake noise that used to be quite loud is gone. The exhaust it reasonably quiet at idle - I was concerned it would be loud as the exhaust came off of a duramax diesel (4"pipe), once moving its quiet like a new stock truck.

Congrats on the engine running!

Having a turbo is just like adding another muffler,they make it quiet.
What muffler are you using?

MBHD

That's good news! Glad someone's making progress. I'm almost ready to to order the Megasquirt for the 292. Keep us posted.

Glad to hear it's running, looking forward to seeing how it responds as a stock engine to mild boost.

Tuning is progressing - found out I need to close the plug gap - missing under load. I'll change the plugs tomorrow for a colder set while I'm in there. When it does decide to hit a sweet spot and go its quite tantalizing - just teasing what it can do....

IIRC you locked the exhaust cam at a specific setting (as opposed to trying to keep track of it with the electro-hydraulic control).

Or am I completely off on that one?

Still amazed at how far you have gotten with this project, good luck.

it is surprising how much more fuel is required. i bet your stock injectors will have a hard time keeping up with 8 psi. isn't this the fun part? tom

For sure this is the fun part... So far I'm ok on injector size. GM ran the injectors in sequential mode, and I'm running batch fire so I can get more fuel in. Just spray more often. I have a set of 36# injectors ready to go if needed.

The cam phaser is unpluged so it stays at the default setting abiet I think it moves a bit due to leakage past the control valve.

My V-6 4.3 has 30 lb injectors stock & so far I made 386 HP @ the wheels & have not run out of injector yet. Turbo w/21 PSI
And like you I have a fresh set of 36's ready to install.
What size are the stock injectors on the 4.2,are the years all the same?

MBHD

CNC'ed V band flanges/adapter - translated the turbo via a V band directly into the exhaust pipe, neat an tidy. I can make them any size - just ask.

4" pipe adapter



Turbo side

4200 exhaust port

Very Nice (the flanges and the ports).

Well ran out of either injector or fuel pump tonight... started leaning on it a bit and well I can't richen the mixture up enough with what is installed. I remote mount the fuel pressure gage to see whats not keeping up.. My guess is the in tank pump.

I had to switch to the Walbro 255 HP pump in my Syclone.
The stock 190 pump barely keeped up w/the 280 HP rating.

One of the biggest improvements in the 1/4 mile on my Syclone.
Gained about 3 MPH & 2-3 tenths.
You have a wide band O2 reader?
Also do you have an adjustable FPR? Fuel pressure regulator.

MBHD

Marc, I've Got a 255 Walbro somewhere If you need one in a hurry, I can go look for it if you need one.

i ran thru the same things. i also remote mounted a guage. be sure you don't have spark blowout. tom

Quickie answers..

Wideband installed with a new sensor..

Aeromotive boost referenced FPR - base pressure is set to 45 psi with out the reference line installed.


I have a holley/walbro 255 sitting beside the 'puter, thanks for the offer. I'll pull the box deck off and change the pump maybe tomorrow.

I put 380 mile on the truck today going to the last big car show rod run around here, to bad a wizzy 63 GTR Vette parked beside me - but for the folks that did look - some of them got a sore neck from a double take..


Oh ya... 65 to 100 MPH is like 3-4 second and thats backing off when the boost just really starts to happen ( no fuel), cruise at 80 MPH - 2200 rpm all day long. 100 mph is like 2800 rpm.. @ 1/2 psi, gee wonder what a full 8 psi is going to do..

My buddy that makes the turbo manifolds say my conversion to the dark side of boost is now complete.. its a wonderful thing.

Finally got a couple of pix outside ..

MAN! I can see why they twisted their necks! I'd like to see more pix of your GMC. You saw what I drive. I wouldn't even notice a Corvette sitting next to this, unless it was a '53 with a bad a@# inline!

mark, i use a rising rate regulator. @ idle and cruise the fuel pressure (fp) is around 35, @ full boost its around 53-55 psi. your injectors could keep up better with higher pressure.

are you running a intercooler? man that looks like some large charge pipe feeding the engine! is it 3"? got videos yet? tom

The intercooler runs across the entire front of the truck, with the inlet and outlet going into the wheelwells. The charge pipes go through the inner fenders. The I/C inlet/outlet is 3".

From the turbo outlet I run 2.5" which is the same size as the turbo outlet on the cold side, then just before the I/C I have a 2.5 to 3" silicone coupler. On the I/C discharge its straight 3" past the blow off valve, then goes upto 3.5 into the big elbow. The throttle body in like 3.75" so I have to stretch the @#$ out of the elbow to get it on. This is not the final charge air set up from left the inner fender to the TB, so its just make it work. Once I get the good motor in the truck it'll get re-done.

Next weekend is the megasquirt conference and part of it is a dyno session so I'll try and get video then.

Fuel pressure at idle is 35 psi, with the FPR reference hose off 45 psi - no ideal under boost yet, need to run the gage out from under the hood.

We need some pics,all this talk w/no pics,that's a no no. :-)

MBHD

any speculation as to what its gonna put down?

My guess is 300 RWHP @ 8# ... 375@ crank - maybe more ????

That is about 9.6#/HP <<< mid to low 13's

Oh ya

'06 motor update

My head is finally done! Only 6 weeks

The replacement rod bolts showed up today - I don't want to discuss this as its involves a very reputable company and they were quite embarrassed. Needles to say the replacements were free.

So MAYBE is 2-4 weeks the engine will be done.

Sounds good ,did you bench flow the head?

MBHD

Hank,

Look earlier in this thread...

I put a bigger pump in and while it helped a bit, I'm going to have to pull the intake and change the injectors - not a job I'm look forward to. Its going to be a 6 hour chore.

Just when the turbo gets really going the AFR goes lean 15:1 <<< ugly lean ... and the data log shows the injectors are at 100% duty cycle they just can't pass more fuel. So out come the stock one and in go the 36# ones I have on shelf, the next jump in injector size that I have ready is a big jump 72# whoop ass << these suckers will support 130HP each! hmmm 130 x 6 .. hmm eeek 780HP <<< time for a TH400 ....

Dyno day is Sat.

If you can adjust your fuel pressure higher for now, it really does make a difference in your AFR's.

I set mine to 38 psi @ idle vacuum line disconnected, & ran crazy lean like 15 to 1
I then adjusted to 55-60 psi vacuum line disconnected & my AFR's went to 10.8 to 1.

On a side note pertaining to your flow numbers, my friend that works on all kinds of nice 4 valve cylinder heads & others, sorta thinks your exhaust flow numbers seem correct but your intake cfm seem too high.
Not saying you are wrong & also my friend has not flow tested a Trailblazer head yet,but he has flow tested modded Toyota turbo Supra heads & those are nice flowing heads BTW.

It will be interesting to see your flow chart when you post it.

Also it will be interesting on how much more power your engine will make over our old style L6's


Goodluck w/your tunning!

MBHD

Good luck on Saturday.

Take many videos and good luck

IiiiiTTT'S SATURDAY .

Good luck and let us know, soon as you can. Please.

what is the stock size injector? and do different years have different sizes?
at what psi do your injectors run out and at what fuel pressure?

hope you did well at the dyno. tom

Well,

Good and bad...

The dyno operator was not having a good day and was having issues getting the dyno to behave.

The truck overheated a bit as they kept wanting load runs done to sort of the dyno.. not good.

We did manage 2 full pulls though - no graph just the number - 280HP at the rear wheels - in 2nd gear - in 3rd it would have been more.

Why is it always so hard to make everything work at the same time? 280 HP, Sounds like your truck was working. What else did you learn?

Needed both the high volume pump and 36# injectors to feed it and still it went a tad lean at the top end so I cranked up the fuel pressure reg. 6PSI base pressure today. Need to go do a full throttle run up the hill to see if its got enough gas now.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=_V30lmWZAtQ

you have to like that video.

280 hp @ 5500 rpm. is there anyway you can post a pic of the dyno sheet? i am curious about the torque and at different rpm's.

it sounded smooth. correct me if i am wrong. that is about 12 psi of boost. tom

Thats a slick video.

In my mind, that truck would be done with some chrome wheels on it...and the modified engine of course...:D

Is there a video where you take off like a bat out of hell, with no care for parts or money?

I never did get a dyno sheet as the dyno was screwing up badly. I'll do a video shortly.

Last night was the last chance to run at the track. The density altitude was about 3800' (good for around here) on 8psi the truck ran 14.58@98mph. I'm fighting all the same issues that Tom is regarding building boost on the line. 98 mph is a high 13 second pass if it would launch under boost.

It would bust the tires loose on the 1-2 and 2-3 shift for about 50', next time out I'll have the drive shaft loop installed so I can run my slicks.

The hot side on the turbo is big (1.38 AR) so it take a long time to spool up. To compensate, I tried using a 20HP shot of NO2 to get the turbo to spool it worked a tiny bit, need a bigger shot say 75hp. Or the smaller turbine housing.

Good enough for this year. I'm going to leave the truck as it is and refocus on getting the good motor completed. Got a call from the transport company my '06 head finally showed up.

I'll post the time slip info later on today, I think the 1/8 was 7.9.
Later.
M.

The last chance to run, the last show of the year, I think you have avoided using the "W" word but It's coming any way! It has cooled down here and I'm sure you Northern guys are feeling it. I've been cutting wood but I'm breaking down ( literally & figuratively ) and buying enough so that I can heat the shop this season. I've got a lot to do before next August! I admire your restraint. Most would have said, "mid 14s at about 100mph!" That ain't bad!

Pretty good run for the first time out congrats!

Now,,,, don't take offence here but,,,,,,

First off, with that big of an exhaust housing you will need @ least a 3500 Stall converter,BTW what does your stall to?

What are your rear brakes disc?

A trans brake would help holding the car,but if you have a low stall converter it will never spool up fast.

I am just wondering why you have such a large turbine housing? Is it a drag car/truck only?

What size/trim is your turbine wheel?
Sorry if I sound harsh,I just want to see you run fast.

MBHD

Hank,

Once I get the good engine in the truck I'll see how the turbo behaves and decide then to change the turbine housing. The early (pre'06) head exhaust ports are REALLY restrictive. With the built engine the exhaust ports ( after porting on the '06 head) flow > 210 cfm @ 28" at 0.450 lift. My guess is almost 50% more than the early head. So this should help get the turbo to spool up faster.

Now,,,, don't take offence here but,,,,,,

*No problem advice even if incorrect is better than silence...

First off, with that big of an exhaust housing you will need @ least a 3500 Stall converter,BTW what does your stall to?

*With the stock 4200 1800 rpm, with the previous 292 2300 rpm. I'll see how it reacts with the built engine before making a change. But generally agree that at least a 3000 stall converter will help.

What are your rear brakes disc?

* 11" Drum, I ran out of time to go in and readjust the brakes up - so this will go on the maintainence list...

A trans brake would help holding the car,but if you have a low stall converter it will never spool up fast.

Yep .. running a 4L60e so no sure if its a good idea...

I am just wondering why you have such a large turbine housing? Is it a drag car/truck only?

I got a screaming deal on the the turbo - $<900! for a new Garrett Gt4088. So I figure if I need a smaller housing it won't cost as much as getting the *right* turbo. The local turbo shop said they would give me a credit against a smaller housing if I need it.
What size/trim is your turbine wheel? Check the Garrett site P/N 703457-2.
Sorry if I sound harsh,I just want to see you run fast. << me too.



MBHD

[/quote]

[/quote]

Though I'd post some pix of the early and late head

Late head with perf springs installed


Late head - ported with OEM exhaust gasket installed. Close up.



Stock early head with late OEM exhaust gasket installed



Stock early head top - ported late head bottom - exhaust ports


Stock early head top - ported late head bottom intake ports


Late head with inconel valves installed - turbo ready

now that is what i call progress and fun. sounds like the engine is running good now. refresh us to which injectors you are using and how close to max they are. it is surprising how much fuel is needed.

again, big pat on the back and a attaboy to you full pulling this off.

still glad you have not beat me at the track yet. i probably have another 7 months in the lead!

also what does your truck weigh? tom

Previous quote " Needed both the high volume pump and 36# injectors to feed it and still it went a tad lean at the top end so I cranked up the fuel pressure reg. 6PSI base pressure today. "

I'll take to the public scales soon, I'm guessing about 3600#.

It went 76MPH at the 1/8, 60' was crap 2.68. 98.3 MPH at the 1/4. Our mph are quite close. All in all not bad for the first time out.

Finally finished putting the rotating assembly together on the good motor today. Another 2-3 weeks should see the long block complete. The long pole is the intake manifold, I got a message from the foundry to call Monday so I'll find out how close he is to having the lower runners complete.

With the truck mobile again I can get it out of the shop which gives me a bit more room to work on the engine.

flow bench data for the '06 head

efi,
that 60' is pretty bad. even in N/A form the engine should pull a better 60'. what is your rear geared to? like you said , the 1800 stall is strangling the motor.
i am curious to see what your torque curve is compared to mine. at 3K rpm my tq is near 300 and peak is @3800rpm. i would guess yours is higher in rpm for peak tq. what is your shift points? tom

hank, in reference to:
Previous quote " Needed both the high volume pump and 36# injectors to feed it and still it went a tad lean at the top end so I cranked up the fuel pressure reg. 6PSI base pressure today. "
i am asking this to efi, i have read all the posts because this is fun for me too. he and i have made alot of changes to our motors and not every item gets posted. just checking with him to see if he had to do any changes. tom

What's the test pressure on your flow sheet?

Supposed to be done at 28" - why he didn't write it down is anyones guess.

Tom,

Its pretty weak off the line - I don't have a dyno sheet. Running 3.50's with a 275R60 Tire << quite tall.

Last year without knowing better, I set the timing advance to 30* max thinking wedge head, well the fast burn chamber doesn't like more than 22* on reg. gas and I rattled the motor good - couldn't hear it for the intake racket. It lost a bunch of bottom end power.

Shifting at 5800.
I have the stock pistons/cams out of my '06 motor and once I get a few more projects done I'll open the stock early engine up and freshen it up using the left overs. Give the head a good port job on the exhaust and might stick it into something.

[quote=tlowe

hank, in reference to:
Previous quote " Needed both the high volume pump and 36# injectors to feed it and still it went a tad lean at the top end so I cranked up the fuel pressure reg. 6PSI base pressure today. "
i am asking this to efi, i have read all the posts because this is fun for me too. he and i have made alot of changes to our motors and not every item gets posted. just checking with him to see if he had to do any changes. tom [/quote]

Excuse me!!!!!!!!!

MBHD

efi,
you shift a 1000 rpm higher than i do. how much timing for the turbo setup?
@idle
@cruise
@boost




hank,
your excused. no harm done. tom

must...........see.............video........

Im fascinated by the amount of $$$$$ & effort youve putting into this project...if I was local Id be at your shop buggin the ever lovin crap out of you and trying to help, although Id pull in driving a ford (inline though).

Video.. might be a bit tough ... its getting dark here before I can get out to take some after work and they are calling for termination dust on Thursday.. high of 33*F low 26*F UGGGGGGH

It sucks to live at 52* North - summer is so darn short here. The only upside is that in June it doesn't get dark until 10:30.

That does suck.

I have to ask, whats your exhaust setup like after the turbo?

And out of cheer curiosity, why a 51 pickup? Hey, im a truck guy that cant get over the pro-street craze..so your 51 tubbed with a kick ass six banger would be a dream come true.

Right off the turbo flange it goes from 2.75" to 4" via a custom V band setup.

From there to the tail pipe its a 4" system orginally off of a duramax. Got 25' of pipe, hangers, muffler all kinds of bends for$100 as a take off, I can't buy a decent muffler for that money. So the sawsall and mig got put to use.

OnceI get the running boards on the truck it all be hidden from view.

Why a '51 GMC - well I needed a motor for the truck as it was just a pile of parts when I got it an no drivetrain. I was really disapointed with the built 292 that was previously in it. It sucked fuel (14 MPG highway), made the same power as the stock early motor (NA) and cost a lot to build. Knowing what I know now I would have gone straight to the 4200. The stock 4200 gets over 25 MPG.

I'm still trying to understand the inliners as a group, and wondering why more folks are not using this engine. Is it the electronics that scare folks off? Or ?????

In the beginning the Inliners were dedicated to preserving and racing the early Chev and GMC sixes, especially the 12 port Waynes and derivitives. We have been evolving and now embrace all inline engines, some of us are staying with the original intent (don't worry Tom I am never going to say 'old school' again), but every day brings more interesting input from the group on the overall scope of the inline. So, I would say, just different strokes.....

Im trying to talk a fella into the 4200. We figured out the genIII v8 and I hate to say it but Id imagine another will find a home in his nova, to replace the 194, actually I dont mind, Im beyond impressed with that engine as well.

Ford put all the cool inline engines (even to date) in the australian automobiles (think OE twin turbo)...if only they woulda made their way into an american ford ranger...coulda changed everything.

There is a guy contemplating a 4200 in his fullsize ford, I pointed him in this direction, should he want support as to how to get by the VATS, variable timing, etc. etc..

efi-diy
" I'm still trying to understand the inliners as a group, and wondering why more folks are not using this engine. Is it the electronics that scare folks off? Or ?????"

I like just keeping it old school for now.

Plus, to my knowledge nobody has built a fast original engined L6 turboed street car.
Glen Self had built a fast 4.2 turbo L6 that was installed in a 66 Nova,it's been done, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUESVD-PnLo I'd like to be a bit different.

I am pretty commited on the current engine I have.
I have most of the parts to build the short block.
I have a 12 port head that flows good.
I have always considered building one of these engines when they first came out.

As you are finding out,there is not a lot of support of aftermarket parts for that engine,even still to date.
Everything almost has to be custom made it seems.
Someday I might build one.

MBHD.

EFI-DIY
From there to the tail pipe its a 4" system orginally off of a duramax. Got 25' of pipe, hangers, muffler all kinds of bends .

It sounds like you are using a stock Duramax muffler?

If so, that will cause some back pressure & cause your turbo to spool up slow.

Two cents thrown.
MBHD

.

..... some of us are staying with the original intent (don't worry Tom I am never going to say 'old school' again), but ..... [/quote]

Tim,Old school, old school, old school we can say it all we want. Our concept of that is as broad as our ideas of which inline we want to build. That is what makes this site so interesting. We are a very diverse group that has little in common other than easy spark plug changes and a propensity to be a bit different. I am grateful to the founders of Inliners and those who make this site possible. Now as far as "original intent".........

Reason for no aftermarket, is this engine was only stuck in a big ass SUV, people in general wont make the transition from, take the kiddies to soccer practice and get groceries to, hmm...I wonder just how fast I could get the kiddies to the field and to the store and back with the old six banger...:D

Now if GM woulda pushed their twin turbo SUV prototype in everyones faces, as they sat in the dealer showroom waiting for the salesman to come back from speaking with the "manager" as to whether they could give them the "deal" of the day and shown them how 400+hp was tangible...then things would be different and much more inliner friendly.

Sad part is, the gen III v8 in a ligher/aerodynamic vehicle, this is the higher hp LS1/LS2 versions, actually gets really nice mpg, 30 isnt out of the realm of possibility.

I don't know about that. Look where GM stuck the 270 & 302 and our forerodders found them and scared the stuffin' out of a generation of V-guys. The shame is that many of us seem to be late picking up on the potential of the 4200s. I agree with Marc and wonder why we bury our heads in the casting sand of an out dated design. Tradition? Old Sc.......

You have a point but now people have many more options. I hope im wrong, it would be cool to see the 4200 catch on, then efi-diy will have the monopoly, just hope he remembers his buddies on inliners.


Anyone have the engine weight for the 4200 vortec, vs say a 5300? I cant seem to find it.

Just thought about the comment about the newer 06 & newer head flows 50% better on the exhaust, efi-diy,,you stated it will help w/the turbo spool up better.

I disagree,ports being bigger ,less velosity,slower spool up.

A few ways to bring the spool up is by Nitrous,smaller turbine housing (I recommend),or a loose converter,not being a BB turbo,3500 stall is aprox the min. stall needed,that's if you want to be able to boost launch.
Two cents thrown.

Goodluck!

MBHD

No worries here, even Ford owners are welcomed...

I'd be happy just seeing the engine catch on and helping folks with it.

NO2 yep - agreed.
Smaller turbine housing - good chance this will come to pass
Higher stall - don't think I'll be able to get away without it - maybe a 100HP hit it'll shock the coverter enough..(maybe boom ..) Last time out it was just a 20HP shot.

AS for the ports for spooling yes and no - yes velocity is a good thing, but you also need volume... the small ports are so darn restrictive that I'm thinking the its choking the engine pretty good. We'll find out once the built engine goes in.

Once a gas stream reached sonic velocity - its really hard for an orfice to pass more gas.

The other item that you wouldn't know about is the internal passages in the turbo manifold are sized for the 90% of the later port. So on the early head the velocity falls off. So with the later head the gas stream will have to increase velocity as it enters the manifold. Worst case it'll be slow to spool but run like a raped ape once the boost comes up...

As far as aftermarket parts - I agree it sucks. The fabricator that finished welding my oil pan is will to build headers for the 4200 if he can get 15 committed orders. Mild steel or stainless. 6:1 straight tube or stepped pipe, or, 2 x 3:1 >> 2:1...

With enough demand the parts will follow. Just got to relieve the engine of its orginal home....

We just had our first snow, and icy roads, give it a few months and I'm sure some will show up in the insurance salvage auctions. I'm thinkin a '53 Chev Bel Air 2D hardtop W/ a 4200 single turbo (mild, whatever won't blow up the 4L65E) and limited slip of some kind (in a non torque tube rear). Buffalo's lowering uprights and disc kit, poly bushings, ought to be a real sleeper :D.

Any ideas on the weight of the 4200?

It snowed off and on all day yesterday and We woke up to 6" this morning. Oh well, there's a lot to do inside too!

Here is a nice racing intake
http://www.selfracing.com/engines/engine114.htm
http://www.selfracing.com/engines/engine13.htm
cams http://www.selfracing.com/engines/engine12.htm
Headers http://www.selfracing.com/engines/engine15.htm
MBHD

400lbs sound right?

Hank, Great pictures! Thanks

Your video says 155 KPA, isnt that 22psi?

155Kpa absolute manifold pressure (101.7 is atmospheric pressure at sea level).

Oh yeah, this gets me everytime. Take 100 away for absolute manifold pressure, then 55kpa is about 8 psi.

Gotchya

Went to the public scale today I was kind of surprised at first...

3800#! << porky Then thinking about it.. added turbo, turbo manifold, intercooler, 4" exhaust system out to the back bumper, charge air plumbing, and NO2 bottle.

If I remember correctly I think with the 292 the truck weighted 3550# but I never wrote that number down so its fuzzy.

So at 3800# and 98.3 mph == 280RWHP >> 360ish at the crank. Density altitude was around 3800' so I think this HP # is about right. It line up with what the goofy chassis dyno reported.

Before I installed the turbo the truck ran the same ET with the stock 4200 as it did with the tricked out 292 (ported lump port head big valves, cam, offy, holley 600, & headers).

You need to drive this thing to work or something, get a co-worker to hold the cam while you show everyone just how wreckless a 51 can be.


What are your expectations with the new engine? Earlier you mentioned supporting 750 with X injectors, you think it will get up in that area?


This stuff is exciting and Im just a spectator, reading the play by play.

Tim,Old school, old school, old school we can say it all we want. Our concept of that is as broad as our ideas of which inline we want to build. That is what makes this site so interesting. We are a very diverse group that has little in common other than easy spark plug changes and a propensity to be a bit different. I am grateful to the founders of Inliners and those who make this site possible. Now as far as "original intent"......... [/quote]

If you think about it ( maybe someone already said this) hotroding in it orginal intent was to put later model engines into older tin... think caddy V8's into model A's... etc..

Ok for all those inquiring minds...


http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=uaPnBWZoqfQ

cool beans!!. that looks like a cocpit from an airplane with the guages and gismos. make it longer next time. tom

Funny now I'm used to 8 psi.. feels like nothing and want more...

Not enough road around here unless we go way out in the boonies...

you need to live in the boonies like me. drove mine 100 miles today oneway to pickup 2 292 short blocks and a mess of other goodies. it felt like the front end was going to come off the ground if i pushed the go petal to hard. 69 and sunny. 1 of the few autumn days we have left.

so what is you timing settings?
idle
cruise
boosted

Idle - 10*
cruise - 25*
low boost - 9->10*
full boost - 6*

1-2 shift 50 mph
2-3 shift 80 mph
3-4 shift ????? not enough road anywhere near here

Tom where do you shift your elky?

Its a disease.


Liked the video!!

You'll get more with your new engine. You may get all you deserve!

my shifts are done @ 4800 rpm.
1-2 is 35 mph
2-3 is 66 mph
3-4 is 108 mph (hope to see that at the track)

Isn't 4800rpms a bit low? Do you have enough timing to fill up the turbine with such quick shifts??

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uaPnBWZoqfQ
mbhd

tell us the monster is alive

Here are some photos of my friend Dan's '64 Chevy pickup with a 4200. I took these in May when he had just got it going. I saw it Saturday but I didn't have my camera. The engine compartment is cleaner and more complete now, ( wiring etc...) He got some help on the wire harness and computer. I haven't got a ride yet, but he is really happy with how strong it is. He says it loves RPMs and ignores the Sierras. His only problem is that he can't get it to warm up without overing 1/2 the radiator. Marc, He wants to know how the Black Opel guys run the distributor. He made major mods to the front cross member to accommodate the pan. My '68 frame is the same. I'm sticking with the 292 for this one, but I'll check the '90 Burb 4X4 frame and see how that would work for a future truck. Beater

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/o_fADdTIthodwtyErjmgTQ?authkey=hizZbWG7Llo

Beater,

The opel does not use a dist. its running 3 wasted spark coils driven from the MS system without a ignition control box. The ignition is triggered off of a 36-1 timing wheel out of a 92 escort.

Rather than mod the cross member I'd modify the oil pan using 2 I5 pans to get a rear sump.

My truck is running - not driving it much now - a bit cold without heat. More focused on completing the real turbo motor, which is trying to say the least. Seems murphy has signed onto the engine build team here...@@#$!!@# its a lesson in patience.

OK, Dan showed me a picture of what he thought was a distributor. Maybe it was and he "thought" it was the Opel. I'm sure it's warmer here but I still don't have enough wood to keep the shop warm. It's though carving an empire out of the wilderness! (and have time left to build hot rods)

Quick update to keep the thread alive..




Intake parts installed for a fit check.... I'm going to have to lower the alternator 3/4" to clear the injectors.

Looks nice.

Just so I'm sure what I'm looking at, you only have 2 runners installed, with 4 more to go?

Correct just 2 runners installed - needed to check firewall clearance.

Ahhh, yes, firewall clearance 'muy importante'. (don't really know how to spell that, just guessing)

Is the stock intake really restictive?
Made for torque & mid range power?
Just curious.


MBHD

I needed somewhere to hang 2 more injectors/hole and the stock intake being plastic doesn't take to well to tig ...

Once the boost is >7psi the fuel controller will taper off the pump gas (stock injector location) and start injecting 100% methanol. At 9 psi the gas injectors won't be fueling the motor as the fuel will come from the 2 horizontal methanol injectors.

Normally you want the injectors to spray the back of the intake valve to get good vaporization, under boost though the air is hot enough to vaporize the methanol which will cool the charge air.

8 PSI on gas was fun, looking forward to turning the wick up... toward 20 <<< go hunting for LS6 powered vettes..

Just remember, Methanol's some pretty toxic stuff (have a read of the MSDS if you haven't, makes MEK look downright civil). Not as bad as Propylene Oxide, or Hydrazine, but not good either.

Guys making serious HP are using methanol especially when turbo charging.

Methanol is what cars on "alcohol" are using.

MBHD

Gotta wear PPE when handling the stuff, its absorbed through the skin.

Dress up in your "moon suit" and go fast!

Yeah, fumes are no good either (and let's not go into drinkin it ).

I measured a couple of head volumes today:

2006 chamber with a 0.004 surface cut 69cc
2006 intake runner mild port - 190cc
2006 exhaust runner ported (to get 72/74% flow it needs to go bigger)- 93cc

2002 stock exhaust runner 81cc

I've read up on your build pretty freaking awesome. I've got a 48 Chevy truck waiting in the wings maybe I'll drop that new 4200 in there. I checked out your YouTube video too, say those are s10 wheels, that isn't a regular cab s10 chassis under that body is it? I've measured it out at its really close and is what I'll likey use when I get going on this project. I really like how the truck looks without running boards and in flat black. Keep up the good work!

The frame is a '54 with a '78 nova front clip installed. The 9" has aftermarket axles with chev bolt pattern. The wheels are from a 3rd gen camaro.

Another piece of the puzzle...

This replaces the VVT drive to allow aftermarket sequential engine management to get a off/on cam sync signal using the OEM cam sensor.

Used in conjunction with the GM adjustable cam gears for the ecotec (same gears for the atlas).

I put up a few other AD truck parts on stovebolt.com that are not engine related. Kind of neat stuff.

Finally got the cams degree'd in ..



Hope to have the rest completed within 2 weeks.

Wow, I'm still building a chicken house and sticking tiny parts together! That looks cool.

MS testing time...
I'm doing some garage testing too.. got a couple of items to test and sort out:

Completed - 1) a new MS3.0 Main board & MS2 processor - works on the bench ok - going out to plug it into the truck.

Completed - 2) convert to MS2extra code... still using ford EDIS module and EDIS coil pack.



#3 Completed... I'll post a quick video later. It took a couple of good backfires until I sorted a wiring issue out BOOM BANG BOOM Then fixed it and hit the key - instant start! Much less cranking than when I'm running the EDIS module.

3) then convert to direct fire (coils fired directly from Megasquirt without the EDIS module) the coils - 3 pairs of 2 coils - coil on plug but wasted spark mode using the 36-1 timing wheel pick up that now triggers the EDIS module reconnected into the new MS box so I get direct timing input - fire the motor and set the base timing. This will prove the ability to fire the stock GM COP coils.


On to the the biggie..

I sent the engine timing diagram tonight to the software dude to get an idea for an initial setup.. hopefully by tomorrow I have an answer. Then out to the shop to test... more BOOM BANG BOOM WHOOSH flame...


I'll install the MSextra test code into the new MS box - connect one coil (#1) with a spark plug just grounded on the outside of the motor, so I can get a timing light on the short plug wire between the coil and spark plug. I'll connect the new MS box to the GM crank trigger sensor.

Then I'll re-connect the original MS box installed running the ford EDIS module with the timing control input to the EDIS box unplugged I'll get fixed timing at 10* BTDC.

Then I'll run the motor on the EDIS box and orginal MS box - check the timing using the timing light to see where is its at.

With the engine running I'll try and get the MSextra test code triggering off of the GM crank trigger to sync up and fire the one coil at the right time - I'm guessing it'll take a software fix or 2 to get it right.

Once all is good then I'll connect the new MS box with the MSextra beta test code up to all 6 coils as in #3 above and run the motor off of the GM crank trigger and the 6 coils in wasted spark mode.

What this will do is free everyone who wants to run this motor from the GM electronics ( and Westers Garage choke hold on modifying the stock GM electronics) and eliminate the need to install a custom trigger wheel. the only mechanical mod will be to install cable type throttle body.

This will bring the cost of conversion down a chunk. A pre-built MS that will run this motor is pricing out about US$400.

Once I get this s/w tested I'll be able to supply a good tuneup file for the MS that folks can install (its easy - if you can open a windows file and click 1 button in the s/w your good to go). If all the wiring and fuel supply is good turn the key == brummm.

Video uploaded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs3f5lsVQ90

Sorry for the crappy video quality - still getting used to the camera.

marc,
nice to see it is running! looks kinda like a science project or some of my college projects. at this point it looks alittle daunting , especially to anyone who knows nothing about electronic gizmos. there is room in there for a few more loose wires. enough teasing.
sounds good though, have you ran it much more? i'd like to know some of the timing basics. tom

Thats looking real good... is that more or less plug and play ecu at the moment? Eg, stock GM pickup as well as edis wasted spark? If so I am very interested in your setup... and would be ready to order necessary stuff for the MS pretty much right away =)

When I read that post and watched the video I felt like the 13th Warrior sitting around the campfire with the Vikings. As time goes on I understand more and more of what is being said about MS and electronics in general. You are really making the 4200 a more viable choice. Good work Marc!

The GM trigger is still not proven as I write this. I was triggering the MS off of the 36-1 trigger wheel that's mounted on the front of the crank. The 36-1 wheel drives the EDIS system.
If your in a hurry I'm have a 36-1 trigger wheel setup on order for the turbo motor and can increase the qty.

Direct cost from the CNC shop

EDIS wheel = $350 ea
Support Brkt = $125 ea
Standoffs = $60 for 4

The reason why I'm still adding a crank trigger wheel is this:

I'm testing a beta version of the sequential system and it need the 36-1 trigger wheel to run it.

The MS sequential system does not support the GM 7 notch crank trigger found on the 4200 (if you managed to find a 2007/08 motor then it does as the later motors use a 60-2 trigger like the LS series engines). Its a s/w thing. Eventually it will happen.

nice to see it is running! looks kinda like a science project or some of my college projects. at this point it looks alittle daunting , especially to anyone who knows nothing about electronic gizmos. there is room in there for a few more loose wires. enough teasing.
sounds good though, have you ran it much more? i'd like to know some of the timing basics. tom [/quote]

We have a lot ice and snow behind the shop so I haven't driven it. Its nearly the same configuration that we ran last year on the Black Opel on the salt so I would not see any issues with the install. The only difference is the Black Opel used the EDIS coil pack instead of the COP coils - the result is the same.

I actually loaded the Black Opel tune up file to get the ignition parameters ( just quicker) then overwrote the Opel's fuel and spark table with my own from the stock turbo motor.

With the EDIS system the engine cranks a lot longer before it fires, I was surprised how fast it fired up!

GM trigger try #1 - boom bang boom .....

Need to gather more info for the s/w guys to figure out whats going on. Ran the battery down - so its on charge .....

Try #2 tomorrow.

you will get it. just keep feeling your way thru the cloudiness.

can you explain alittle about the stock gm wheel?

efi-diy, You've got me very excited here... if there was a virtually plug and play (I dont mind having to adapt harnesses etc, just dont want to have to fumble my way through getting the motor running with MS. You get that sugga done, and I'll be ready to buy =)

Good luck, you'll get it.

GM ignition - try #2

Hooked the lab scope up and found the s/w is firing the coils advanced and missing 1 firing pulse.... Sent Mr. Software guru a few pictures of the scope display... waiting for a code update.. I figure it'll take another 2-3 s/w mod's to get this sorted... This is really raw development work and Sh*t just happens.

Well I managed to pick one of these babys up... it was a 2005 with 19k mi... so I just got to find me an 06 head. Looking very much forward to your progress =) Also, recommend a particular GM service manual for engine? Just get a Trailblazer FSM?

Quick update - no real progress, waiting for a s/w fix.

In the mean time I'm starting on getting the MS sequencer beta box testing underway. This was supposed to come after the MSextra test but here we are.

Its been -25* here for the past 5 days - to da** cold to head out to the shop for more than 10 min's. Its supposed to warm up above freezing for the weekend so I'll get at the sequencer then.

Some progress ... finally have the intake runners in metal...
[URL=http://img24.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1001002h.jpg][/URL

I like it!!!!!!!!


MBHD

Quick update...

Received my 46# gas injectors and converted the injector harness plugs tonight - basically its down to installing a gutted PS pump << need it to run the serpintine belt and installing the GM intake. The aluminum one isn't quite ready yet. This should all be done this weekend. What left then is to build a EFI harness that not part of the truck so I can goto the dyno. Getting very close.

Cool, good luck with it.

Too quick on the trigger I guess, I meant to add a at the end of the last one.

I'd still be curious as to what you'd sell a pre built/mapped megasquirt... I've been slacking a bit on my 4200... but want to get it going again...

Still need to get the internals going, but ecu for me at first is most important... and as of now, it looks like I'll probably have to go for something like AEM full standalone... just because people know them etc... pretty common.

So, I'm a little confused. I've read all these 4200 posts over and over but I semm to be missing some things. I do not know want a mega-squirt is.Please define. I am also having difficylty locating Metric bolts that do not cost an arm and leg plus my first born, any ideas? How much help would a factory manual be? I was "gifted" and '04 4200 from my son. It is from a Olds Bravada. Will this still work, or should I be looking for a newer one? Is there going to be a kit that will put this thing in my Sub without recreating the whole thing?

'49 Fleet
'49 Sub

The 4200 needs an ECM (engine computer) to make it run unless you want to go through the exercise of building a carb manifold and adapting a distributor.

If the engine is complete with the COMPLETE GM harness including the stuff from under the dash and you have the GM ECM then use it.

Megasquirt is an aftermarket DIY ECM http://www.msefi.com

As for metric bolts mcmaster-carr. Or the wreckers.

The '04 will be fine for what you want to do. No kits - its all scratch build.

Just the belt, fabricated the harness and install the throttle body left...

I'm really curious what kind of bark this engine is going to have....

We won't know till you post video, you'll know before that.

efi, what cam profile did you go with? I had a guy that was pretty big in the supra world recommend 264/264 if I had the clearance for it. Does comp cams have any, or do they just do custom workfor it?

Also, another link I had to a pdf you hd somone was bad regarding that... newer links?

<<<< ?????????

The cams were custom ground using billet cam blanks I supplied by Comp. The cams are 220@050 and 226@050.

Re: 264/264
A recommendation giving nominal duration only tells you nothing.
DOHC engines have very different lift rates than pushrod engines, and 4 valve different again.

Getting real close to dyno day..

down to making up the test EFI harness... and confirm the dyno booking...

efi-diy,

sounds great,
what have you changed since the last time you had dynoed it?

MBHD

This time its to break-in the built turbo engine and map the NA fuel curve for it.

Once its off the dyno its going into the truck right away. I'll run it for a week NA then re-install the turbo which will essentially be bolt on. The CanWest picnic is coming up faster than I want and its my dead line to get on with it.

Good luck at the dyno (hope it's not too cantankerous).

Its alive and dyno tested in NA mode - absolute results will be released at the CanWest BBQ next weekend - complete with video.

Teaser...

From the initial pull to the final pull with fuel/spark/exhaust tuning picked up almost 95HP.

Congrats, 95, that's quite a bit.

How soon are you anticipating dyno pulls with boost?

Thanks for the response.
I'll give that 2 thumbs down.

MBHD

Whats wrong Hank can't wait for the final numbers..

This is the '06 built turbo motor internal changes are:

- lowered compression from 10.1 to 8.2
- strong internal parts
- ported head and custom cams (intake 222@0.050 .453", exhaust 224@0.050 .456") installed with 0 overlap for the turbo
- 46# injectors

I was not asking for HP or torque numbers, I was asking what all is different with the engine..

How much flow did you get out of the cylinder head?
Larger valves installed? etc,etc,etc,...

I am sure it made a lot of HP & torque.
I am excited for you!

So, now that you mention numbers,,,,,,,just kidding.

MBHD

http://img512.imageshack.us/i/scan0002eq6.jpg/ <<< flow sheet

Stock size valve for the '06 head, the combined valve area when you add the 2 intake or exhaust valves together is bigger than a 2.19" BBC intake valve.

Actually, this post should have been difficult for the usual mouth-breathers to attack, but then it struck me: they have no idea what I said, so where to find fault?

but... why take chances?

I'll post the dyno plot once I get it scanned in..


so.. this is in naturally asparated mode no turbo, no NO2 - just the motor..

Peak HP 353 @ 6800
torque 280 @ 5300

average HP 3000 - 6400 275

It'll run on 87 octane with the 8.2:1 CR without boost..

If you overlook the strong internal parts its a 2006 4200 with reduced CR (stock is 10.2:1) ported head and camshafts.

At WOT from 5300 to 6900 the engine was pulling 5" of vacuum so with a bigger throttle body there is more power to be had. Also the cams were set up for -1 deg overlap (for the turbo) if the cams were adjusted to have say 20 deg overlap for NA mode the engine would make more power.

I think with the cams setup for NA mode, bigger TB, stock CR and long tube headers another 40 - 50 HP more can be found.

M.

efi-diy,
these figures are just on an engine dyno correct?

Definetly sounds like the TB is too small for NA mode. Got some pics of your custom intake maifold?

BTW,what size is the stock TB ?

I thought you had some figures w/the turbo also???

Keep it going!!

MBHD

75mm >>> TB

Engine >> correct so this is at the flywheel.

Testing was done with the stock intake, exhaust manifolds and TB size.

Once the turbo is added the TB is fine.

Run 29 ... not the max HP run but the best chart I have.

Run 33 353HP @6700 296 lb/ft torque @5300

Engine configuration

K&N air filter into a 90* elbow
Stock size throttle body 75mm
stock intake manifold
46# injectors
Ported head - intake port minor clean, exhaust reworked
Cams - ground by comp cams on custom cam blanks supplied by emtech motorsports. intake 222@0.050 .450" lift, exhaust 226@0.050 .456" lift. Cams were installed with -1* overlap for turbo usage.
8.2:1 compression (stock is 10.2:1)
EFI - megasquirt V3.00 and MS2
Ignition Ford EDIS module and coils
Custom 36-1 crank trigger wheel.
Stock exhaust manifold with 6' of 3" pipe with 2 mufflers except for last runs.

Video of a few dyno runs.. The good engines going in tomorrow. Tonight weather permitting the stock engine is getting another 5psi boost at the track...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5o-i2cMINo

So did you make it to a track?
The extra 5 psi,what will the max boost be then?


MBHD

I did make it and the extra boost found every pressure joint in the charge air piping - been fine at 8 psi for months..

Didn't get to make a full run without a coupling popping off.. fix one then the next weakest one would go.. points to where improvements need to happen for the permanent install.


Time for the new engine to go in.

can't wait to see the new torque #'s with the turbo on the new motor. then the lower rpm torq# will be nice and fat.

good job!
tom

When I at the track the other evening a fellow racer asked how the new engine did so I told him.. he kind turned his nose at the number.. so I gave him a reality check.. if this was a 500ci BBC (twice the displacement) it would make 700hp NA - that kind of rattled his brain a bit.

I thought Chevrolet raced this engine in a baja truck type race & were making 500 HP N/A, what all was done to that engine?

Anyone?

MBHD

That was pure 5.0 L race engine that was loosely based on the 4200. Falconer engines bought the design from GM after powertrain canceled the race engine. My guess is that the LS V8 honchos got their nuts in a knot that this funky 6 was making more power than the LS engines and got the program killed. http://www.falconerengines.com/bio/bio_l6.php

Nice hot rod L6, but Falconer's Base Price is about $43,000 too much at the moment.

After 5 frustrating days of chasing nagging issues (engine had to come out - don't ask) the turbo is finally on the good engine and man alive it sure likes the ported '06 head and the cams! Boost at part throttle is so fast its scary. I gave it half throttle and at 20 mph the back end got loose...

Next up is to secure the charge air piping...

I'm hoping my good intake will be here in 2-3 weeks...

IGOR's evil cousin is alive...

Way to go! Hope to see pics soon! Tom

Good to hear, looking forward to pics when you get time.

I got word today that my intake manifold is almost done... yeah this has been a long time coming.. 18 months

Its the last piece of the puzzle that I am waiting for, once installed I can finish the permanent charge air piping and head to the chassis dyno for the final tune.

In the mean time the driveshaft loop and line-loc have been installed. I got my converter back yesterday from being re-stalled and its going in this weekend. Also will be getting the goodyear drag radials mounted that have been on the shelf for a number of years..

Getting closer to making a full boost pass..

I thought you already had your intake manifold made & are using it?
Two pieces made out of stainless?
That was your turbo header manifold.
MBHD

I've been using the turbo exhaust manifold...

Yea !

My intake is shipping tomorrow!

Quick update...

The intake is installed, charge air pipe hooked up - I'm going to have to redo them though hard to believe that I would have hood clearance issues. Had to "clearance" the tubing to get the hood shut, and its not pretty.

Monday is chassis dyno day... going to shoot for 15-18# on 94 octane, then next Friday if the weather is good - going to let it rip at the track. Have a slew of tiny things to finish before heading to the track.

Need pics!!


MBHD

and video! with sound. tom

I'll try for some video later today....

Did you make it to the dyno?

Hope it did well.

I did... when the boost hits the LF tire to fender lip separates about 5" (this is with the truck tied down to the dyno anchors)..... max boost was 11.5 PSI, we maxed the 46# injectors out...


going to the track Friday... I'll post more then..

Ummm, 46# X6, or X12?

Not that 276 Lbs of fuel is anything to sneeze at.

Twisting 'er up on the dyno, that should be an 'interesting' pass at the strip.

Keep it rubber side down & between the guardrails.

6x

Still need pics, and video of the dyno run under boost.

All I have to say,,,bring some sticky tires!!!

And have fun!!!


MBHD

Yep finally have a use for the goodyear drag radial slicks.... 9x30"

I have some video - just got to find time to edit it... the cam operator was ummm a bit green at it...

By efi_diy, shot with u710,S710 at 2009-09-01


By efi_diy, shot with u710,S710 at 2009-09-01


By efi_diy, shot with u710,S710 at 2009-09-01

By efi_diy, shot with u710,S710 at 2009-09-01


By efi_diy, shot with u710,S710 at 2009-09-01


By efi_diy, shot with u710,S710 at 2009-09-01

Need a few days to rewire and make it tidy but it works.

It looks as though you have 2 sets of injectors. What is the size for the 2nd set?

That motor really gets hidden by the intake and tubing and turbo. Goodluck at the track. tom

Pretty serious looking setup.

If you were to do it again, would you cast the runner 'elbows', or try to fab them?

The runner have several complex curves in them that make them hard to fabricate. Actually I'm working on tooling to cast the entire intake from the head flange upto the bottom of the plenum.

The second set of injectors are 12 x 72# - will be used on high boost to fuel the motor with 100% methanol.

That old truck is going to scare the crap out of some people! Maybe even the driver. I am truly amazed at what you are able to do. Tom

Looks good,,,but,,,,don't take this the wrong way,,, but not sure the air entry between into # 3 & 4 cylinder intake runner is a good design.

Do you have some type of devider plate or difuser in the plenum?

All the turbo books & info I have gathered never recommend blowing straight into one port or two for that matter.

Just wondering if you had no room for any other throttle body positioning?

I do hope it works for you.

MBHD

Hank,

I discussed this very topic at length with a retired university prof that taught automotive engineering and did a lot of turbo work in the 70's, the direction was the effect is minor and not worth the headache of a diffuser.

I still wasn't convinced though until I happened to stop at RCTS the local high end tuner shop for high dollar stuff (>$150,000)cars. On the floor was a plastic BMW intake off of a factory supercharged M3 (6?)that had split from too much boost.... well not only didn't it have a diffuser - it had huge tapered trumpets inside the manifold pointing directly at the throttle body!

BWM has been building inlines for a long time so I took my clue from them and deleted the diffuser. So far no ill effects.

Perhaps over the winter I'll pull the turbo manifold and install 6 thermocouple wells so I can measure the EGT's which will tell whats going on.

Well hind sight is 100% perhaps putting it horizontal would be better for clearance. I was trying hard to not have anything hanging over the valve cover.

I'm considering moving the master cylinder and brake booster under the floor to clean up the firewall if this comes to pass, it will open up a lot of possibilities where to locate the TB. Maybe even redo the plenum so its a tapered upside down U and mount the TB outboard of the engine... all just random thoughts right now...

Thanks for the feedback though.

Here are the ones that Toyotas make
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2JZGTE-IN...eQ5fCarQ5fParts

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/supra_2067_17439
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/supra_2067_158186

M3 http://www.europeancarweb.com/tech/epcp_0908_2004_bmw_m3/photo_07.html

I think Toyota are the ones making much more HP then BMW's in there turbo 6's.
Also the Supra engines can handle up to 850 HP with a stock long block IIRC.

Not saying that BMW's are bad.
My good friend is a designer for BMW.

MBHD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn6Do9gCbRA

Some quick video...

Hmmm something to consider...

My plenum is .120 AL so not so hard to adjust the design ...

It sounds good on the dyno!!
Who knows,about the way it is now,,,maybe it works better than most other designs?

But,,, with that being said I will bet the pic of the aftermarket Supra intake manifold will give you the most HP.

Glen Self had a simular intake as the aftermarket Supras run on that fast 1000 HP 66 Nova wagon w/the 4.2 engine in it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUESVD-PnLo

http://www.smithracecraft.com/62_67_nova/62_67_nova.html

Here is a good shot

http://www.smithracecraft.com/gallery/galler22.jpg


MBHD

Thanks for the reply, a fully cast manifold would be cool.

It sounds great on the dyno. I see what you mean about how much it torques up under load.

IIRC, you boxed the frame?

The manifold will be cast from the head flange upto the plenum base - the plenum top/ends is left for the end user to faricate to fit the space available.

The frame got partially boxed where it was bent to match the nova front clip and where the clip was attached.

Thank you.

That sure sounds like a lot better setup than trying to fab the whole thing (here in the garrage).

Do you have any idea how much they would cost the end user (as you described, ready to finish the top and sides)?

Not yet - I need to finish the tooling and send a positive to the foundry for quoting.

Also the price will depend if the purchaser needs the flanges machined etc. the raw casting would be less $$$. Leaves more DIY but would save $$$ as I have to farm the machining out to a commercial shop and pay the going rate.

How was your day at the track? Hope your not online from a hospital. Tom

I Second that!

When will you posts your results from the dyno?

I will guessimate 400-475 HP range, that's a low ball guess,,not knowing how much boost or anything else,,just a guess ;-)


MBHD

With a dry-flow manifold, the inlet location isn't as critical, especially if you keep the low presure area behind the throttle blade away from one or two particular cylinders. Another technique used to fight this can be seen in the Self manifold- the use of a tapered plenum from the throttle to the end cylinder. You shouldn't have any issues with flow as long as you have sufficient plenum volume and your throttlebody doesn't become a restriction (it probably already is).

I'm so glad to see you making progress- my build has stalled for now. I want to get on the cam purchase if that is still open.

Have you had a chance to monitor any backpressure #s? I'd really like to see how that turbo manifold flows.

Nice work! I can't wait to see the torque #s.

Jeff

Thanks again.


Hope the track day went well.

Just left the Salt this afternoon - the Black Opel Team made a best yet pass at just under 198 mph E/GMS 4200 vortec. Alas at the 5 mile things came un-glued a bit... So they packed up early until next year.

My guess is this might be the fastest N/A inliner pass.

Jeff,

Cam buy is still open - but not for much longer.

Another round of track testing..... knocked 0.5 seconds off and added 6 mph.... 1/8 et is now well under 8 seconds.

Nice work!

What was the final HP & torque numbers from the dyno session?

MBHD

So,,,,,,whats the latest???


MBHD

Busted radiator... I have to do something to isolate the rad from the rad support - the rad is acting as a torque brace.. the top tank split.

The seasons done here so I'm onto other projects until the new year. Got to take a break from the truck for a while.

As for the dyno #'s I'm thinking of writing an article for the 12 port....

That would be the best place to put the news. I will wait patiently to read about it.

For the ONLINE inline bunch, you may not know there is a club that supports this website. The dues collected are what make it happen.

Because of this club, there are also many chapter clubs across the USA and they hold regular meetings and events. Fun stuff.

With membership you also get a great club magazine. Tom

EFI-diy

Quick question,what size valves are in your ported cyl head?


Thanks

MBHD

Stock '06 size

intake 2x 1.540
exhaust 2x 1.340

Nice work!

I think I would change the throttle body entry from the top there to the front of the manifold.

Cheap way to find out how the air is being moved and how even it
is being moved is to get a leaf blower and attatch it to your throttle body. Turn on the blower and open the throttle. It'll shop you how even the air flow ballance is. If your getting more air in the 3/4 cyl and less in the other you'll lean out in the middle and rich in the ends. If you have sequential injection you can tune each cyl. (Like you said.. EGT in each hole) will
be able to "See" where your ballance problem is.
Your Intake design is great.. just move that throttle body and
it'll be awsome!
You didn't post your actual MPH and ET for 1/8m....
~Scott

You've certainly earned it, thank you for sharing all this with us.

Heres a little idea, you may or may not ever have a problem, but if you do have a problem with those couplers, check some med/heavy duty truck parts stores, you can get the intake charge piping connecters/couplers replaced with some spring loaded ones like they use on semis. Just a lil tidbit, incase it would help!

Not to criticize, however SatanicMechanic is correct. The black EPDM hump hoses your using are not for the boost side (they will blow off). You need to have the 4-layer nomex/silicone. Anything over 4" long should have the wire reinforcement rings. Also, if you need a good tube bender, let me know. I can point you in the direction of the guys that I have used for years on Diesel engine installations.

efi-diy,

Reading this old post.

I was wondering if you have any pics of the inside of your plenum?

Or even pics of all the pieces made to make your intake manifold.

I only remember seeing just your casted intake runners, nice B.T.W.

Thanks

MBHD

Hank, it's in here.

https://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=64612&fpart=1

Pretty.

Thanks,,but,, Thats my post.

I was asking to see EFI-diy intake plenum pics & the pieces bolted to the plenum. Not sure if he ever posted pics.

My mistake, I thought some of those were pics of one of his intake projects.

I must have been half asleep to post that.

Nexxussian,
not a problem, I have brain farts all the time LOL.

Here are some other pics he sent me.

Billet velocity stacks?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/25/p9010637.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/30/1001029j.jpg/

Cool casting set-up!

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/24/1001002h.jpg/

He had told me he does not have any pics of his velocity stacks. I tried.


MBHD

As part of the rewire project, the truck got a new EFI controller MS3 which can do sequential injection and ignition while still being able to run additional injectors for other purposes e.g. staged injection or dual fuel (e85/methanol).

So over the Canada Day weekend I re-installed the stock exhaust sprocket/VVT/cam wheel (its all one piece), which will allow full sequential operation.

Another 4200 is already running full sequential on MS3 - just with a different set of crank & cam wheels. The boys report that the throttle response without any injector timing tweaking is outstanding. Wiggle the throttle and the engine just zings.

So this week its my turn to finally test the native GM 7X and 4200 cam wheel s/w.

I have one more work item to complete, that is to install 6 EGT's into the runners. This way I can monitor each hole and if any are lean (or rich) I can individually adjust the AFR on a per cylinder basis once running full sequential.

Later I'll try the VVT code once I have some other items working like closed loop boost control....

The feature list on the MS3 is quite rich and growing. Latest addition is knock sensing windowing. This allow false knock signals to be ignored until x deg before the ignition event and after y degrees after the ignition event.

Once the VVT and sequential code is fully tested we now have a fully tunable EFI solution for the 4200 (less the drive by wire). One of the aftermarket companies offers a stand alone DBW box. Guess they have the $$$ for a big insurance policy.

More to follow

WOW great news. Question, do you get an EGT output table per cylinder and then you correct the AFR input table per cylinder?

Close...

you get a per cylinder correction - manual value input - there is a feature that will read the EGT's and kill spark&fuel if limits are exceeded.

I'll know more as I get further along.

Bitchin!!!!

That's excellent news!

Murphy has decided to visit AGAIN .... bad mechanical noises - 11PM last nite was not the time to pursue the issue.

Turned out the VVT cam advance retarded the cam a full 25* eating up clearance - must have been just just touching - no permanent damage. Root cause is bad machining by the cam grinder - they got the 2 oil passages reversed in the cam from the head pickup to the VVT phaser.

Sounds like my house.

It sure would be nice when I go to a machine shop if they would stick to what I ask them to do.

Is there a way to work around the "mis plumbing" like programming the direction commands backwards, or are you running the factory computer?

Not easily the control valve would have to ON and then turned off % duty cycle to retard the cam - if the valve ever failed and they do, engine damage would follow.

I'm going to have a discussion with the cam grinder... With the cam heat treated it will take special tooling (diamond) to make the corrections. My guess is it will be less expensive to replace the cam.

Is there an easy way to get ahold of Jerry Weigt. Havent had any luck with his email. I'm looking for a flywheel. Also EFI I had some questions for you about your engine build is there an email address i can shoot you over some questions to?

Well after 1800 mile round trip I can say that the Megasquirt 3 with full sequential fuel and spark control works well.

So we now have a fully tunable EFI system to run the 4200 without having to put up with the GM drive by wire crap.

The only part that I have not tested yet is the VVT timing control - others have and say its working well. Later after I get the 4l80E installed and running I'll swap the stock cams into the engine and test the VVT.

COOL!!!

Thank you for the update.

Finally got the 4L80E bolted to the mockup 4200 tonight. No more worrying about if the built 4L60E is going to gernade.

If needed I can add hard parts to the '80E and it'll have no issues holding 1000 HP.

Hope to get the '80 built and ready to go in by next Friday.

[url= Uploaded with ImageShack.us]4L80e ready to bolt up[/url]

Nice,
who makes the adaptor plate & how much is it?

You will like the 4L80e gear ratios over the 4L60E IMO especially going turbo.

I forgot what rear end ratio you are running now?

MBHD

Dave P. makes the adapter - I designed the hub and get a local CNC shop to cut it. The plate is supplied without any holes except roughed in dowel holes. Its water jet cut.

I'd have to check with Dave on the plate cost - don't remember what I paid.

3:54 which is the lowest numerical gear I could get for the dana 60.

I noticed quite a difference in mileage between the 9" and the dana. Close to 2 MPG.

[url= Uploaded with ImageShack.us]mated...[/url]

Well I have all the needed parts to finally start the engine assembly process (again).

Quick rehash

last year bad fuel caused the engine to rattle bad at 80mph with the windows open (no A/C) I couldn't hear it.

Fix..

new pistons with longer skirts & more static compression (8.2 to 8.9) - the J&E pistons were really short skirt - lots of rock. Went 0.010 OS to fix the last of the original bad machining. #2&3 were bored tilted toward the back of the motor enough the rod bearings were showing distress.
new rings
rebush the small end of the rods (small end bushings were beat to crap)
new rod bearings
new rod bolt - more for insurance than needed.

and new for this year billet girdle.

[img] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/img]

Hope to have the short trial assembled this weekend and complete with in 2 weeks.

Did not know it blew up? Or?

Girdle looks nice. How much?

Did you get to run the 4L80E?

Were you having problems w/the main bearings?

Caps moving around?

MBHD

Did not know it blew up? Or? It was still running when I took it apart - just loud from piston slap and rod pin/bearing noise

Girdle looks nice. How much? $500

Did you get to run the 4L80E? not yet its ready to go in when the engine is broken in - the 4l60 is still in and its the fastest way to get the truck mobile for breaking.

Were you having problems w/the main bearings? No the girdle is insurance for increased power output this year.

Caps moving around? nope. A few years ago I talked to Kevin self about cunningham's 4200 and at what power level they needed to put a girdle in. 700 was the answer.

Marc, great to see progress.

Do you have the secondary fuel system roughed into your truck?

Best of luck with this build.

The girdle is made of aluminum?

Looks great!


MBHD

Yes its alum. I'm in the process (very tedious) on match machining the girdle/top of the main caps for dowels. All 14 have to align.
3/4 done but not a job I'd want to do again any time soon.

In between this working on a buddy's TJ to sort out how to put a 4200 in it instead of the 355 sbc he is thinking of installing.

I know you are upgrading to the 4l80, I'm guessing more for durability than anything. What were the problems with the 4l60? Did it want to break loose too easily at the wheels? If so, would a higher stall converter help? I currently have 4.10 gears, gonna go to 3.73's, and wondering if 3.42's would be better.

Putting a load on your engine will make the turbo to spool up sooner.

Having low gears like 4.10's will cause the turbo to spool up slower, & gets boost later in the later RPM range. Especially in first gear.

Is your application for a turbo or?

Just on average, typical street/strip cars run 3.55s -3.30's, also depending on tire OD.

MBHD

Got tired of fixing the '60e, even with really good parts its was near the limit of where I could lean on it and still trust it to get home. Plus I plan on turning the boost up this year so it would have taken an early retirement and I got other plans for it.

The lower numerical 1st gear will also help get spool time down

Took a while but the girdle is done. Block is washed ready to assemble - starting in the morning. Hope to have all the trial assembly stuff complete by tomorrow evening. [img][/img]

Looking good.

What is going to be different w/this engine build this time around?

MBHD

More static compression, 8.2 to 8.9 + girdle and a few other tweaks to the oil system.

No larger valves installed w/more porting?

Just a piston change?

Same turbo? Forgot the specs?

The increased compression should wake it up a bit.

MBHD

Finally some positive progress...

Got the crank in the block with all the bearing clearances the best that this engines had since the first build (fighting bad machine work ever since). The rest of the short should go together ok .... not saying will to jinx the rest of the build.

Dithered around for a few hours getting the crank set up on the mill to cut a keyway for the damper. First time I had to index a crank on the mill an it took some head scratch to sort out the method. Next one will be easier.

Well I spoke to soon so after this - no more updates until its running....

Hung a piston on a rod Monday - no rings and put it in the hole with the crank at TDC... but the cap on with the bolts finger tight - rotate the crank .... CLUNK WTH now..loosen the rod cap off 3/16 goes up and down .. @#$!@#$!@#$ tighten the cap CLUNK @#$!@#$ take the rod out .. the counterweights are hitting the back of the pin boss.

Get my old piston measure, measure the new ones.. they added 0.2" extra material on the bottom of the pin boss..

So the pistons are taking a nice vacation back at the manufacture in LA.. and I'm stuck on the build ....... mid-June and no parts... This engine has a black cloud following it around...

Finally got the hanger queen out... end of the freaking summer up here.. just a quick round the block but its finally running. For a while there my buddies 250 monojet and points engine was looking appealing..

More miles on it this week to get everything settled down.

Good to hear. That must feel good. Good to see you at Bonneville. I wish we could have talked more. Good job by the Opal boys.

With the fall car show season nearly at the end (leaves are down up here..)and with some other non-car stuff done, times coming to install the 4L80E into the truck. New driveshaft & cross-member are needed. The existing cross member dates back the original built and has a few too many - gotta make it work mods so time for a new one.
Once the '80 is in an settled down, next up is to install and plumb the alky fuel system.

Since Aug been slowly enabling items like active boost control, and knock sensing.

I have had to replace 3 thermocouples - the original ones contacted the down pipe last year. If they were cut short say at 36" from the tip they could be reused. Interested? $10ea + shipping.

Quick update..

The 4L80 in 99% installed - just the dipstick tube to complete. All the parts for the meth fuel system are on order..

Keep us up on it and post some pictures.

Well finally road tested the 4L80 today - the trans is working well - just a little clean up to do.

FYI - the same engine - transmission adapter plate can be used to bolt up any transmission that will bolt up to a 230/292 or SBC/BBC or LS engine. Flywheels are available from Jerry W.

Non 4l60E (these are native to the factory engine install and don't need any special parts) automatics bolt in using the 4200 flex plate, the block to trans adapter plate and t/c spacer. The starter location stays in the 4200 position, the starter itself gets replaced with a tilton with a billet adapter from Pohill Racing Inovations.

The reason for the starter change is to avoid having to cut a relief for the 4200 stock starter nose in the 1 O'clock position in the mating bell housing.

If you have a big enough TIG and fab equipment then you could add a bump to the bell and forgo the starter - just watch the distortion when welding - the bell is about 1/4 to 5/16" thick. Suggest you have it bolted to a engine block while welding.

Adapter plate and T/C spacer will be up on my web page shortly. One more piece of the puzzle done.


Some pix I took along the way

4l80 to 4200

Starter - tilton with adapter LH, stock RH

Pix of the install once I get the truck back up in the air.

Just a quick question. Why couldn't the removable bellhousing from the 4l60e be used in some fashion to mount an aftermarket trans. such an a Tremec or Richmond?

Yes this saves the cost of the tilton starter/adapter but requires a bit of work for the clutch linkage..

So 2 choices - adapt the back of the block to the bell or adapt the 4l60e bell to the trans, like this... bell to trans adapter plate The center hole can be made to any size.

Really all the parts except engine mounts are available now to do swaps. Lime-swap has the wiring/pcm down to hook up 4-6 wires so that end is not to hard.

Once you strip off the intake manifold insulation, dump the air box and add a bit of paint there not much plastic on this engine.

But you can only lead a horse to water....

maybe he aint thirsty-you know how they make a camel drink? Something to do with a heavy weight around the neck and a coupla bricks

Horses don't even have toes, much less articulated thumbs, however if you dont watch it in the exercise above you might get crippled thumbs

Ah the "fun" @#$!@# never stops ...

This winter in addition to getting to the final state on the drivetrain its also time to finish all the little things from the initial build - like adding the front sway bar. << Today's task..

Before xmas I changed the front and rear springs to get the ride height up 2" - the oil pan was hitting hard after a bump.

So this (more angle on the tie rod zerks) and getting the drive shaft angle corrected (raised the back of the trans a lot about 2") resulted in the inner tie rods hitting the corner of the oil pan.

So 3 choices:

- redo the engine mounts and raise the engine 1/2" - front clip has to come off to get access...
- notch the oil pan (means pulling the engine - @##$%@#).
- lowering the drag link by messing with the pitman arm, idler arm and spindles ...

Right now I'm more inclined to raise the engine but are there any front end wizards on here that could accurately predict the effects on bump steer etc. if I messed with the drag link ???

The suspension is 1978 Nova ...

Anyone do any road / roundy roundy racing?

Another older rodder (60+) stopped by to look at the 4200 in the '51 that will be doing a 4200 (delete 235) swap came up with a solution that will fix this and make room for the A/C compressor - swap to a rack and pinion..

Called around - no kits for a 78 nova (thats the clip I'm using) but they do have one for a 79 Camaro - hmmm checked the drag link, inner/outer tie rods, idler arm and I think the steering box are the same between the Nova and Camaro.. hmm should fit..

Just not a low cost solution.. saving pennies.. oh wait Canada cancelled them today..

Those old timers are full of ideas. No pennies? What are our thoughts worth?

There are several universal front crossmembers available in the street rodding market, most are the rectangular tubing style and can provide mounting for a front or rear steer rack.

Progress is being made - slow though on getting the methanol system installed. Its the never ending plumbing job.. aeroquip is not cheap stuff to work with...

Quick update.. the last of the plumbing is on the way from Summit..

The aluminum alky fuel system parts should be ready to get picked up from the anodize shop soon.

Just finishing the last of the brackets to eliminate the front sheet metal support rod - then all the brackets built over the winter head for finishing.

The first local rod run is in 2 weeks today - you wouldn't know it from the weather outside - 1" of snow .... freaking winter started early (mid-Oct) and still hasn't had enough .... 6 months next week and counting #@$!@#$!@#$!

Next update once I get all the parts installed.

Good deal, post some pictures. Looking forward to seeing it this year. The weather here isn't the best but the snow is gone and the weeds are on the march. Too windy to spray too muddy to till.

I spoke too soon 2" of snow and still falling, lots of wind. It must be worse in Alberta.

Don't ya love Global Warming....

Added a bit of color to the engine compartment....

[img] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/img] alky supply

!@#$!@#$&#$! we got ANOTHER 6" of s!@@ last night and its still coming down ............ we're starting into month 7 of winter here - 1st snow last year was Oct 15.

Short update - made a pre-empted trip to the chassis dyno.

Started working on a low octane (89) tune in case I ever get stuck in the boonies again with crap gas.

Tune and exhaust differences (to shut the thing up) -200HP @8 psi from last round 3 years ago. Drop the exhaust at the bottom of the down pipe and add 2* timing added +110HP @10 psi and lots left to go. total timing is just 12* under boost. (420 rwhp)

So back to trying different exh. configs that 1) flow well enough & 2) are quiet enough to keep me sane.

Have another day booked soon - this time with 94 octane in the tank - we'll add in timing and be back to the numbers from 3 years ago. Then add more boost.

Last will be to tune on M100 which is finally working.

It is impressive. Looking forward to more.

Where is the video? We want to hear it and see it. Rather be there helping.
What do you project for power on good fuel?

3yrs ago it was 510 rwhp on 94 oct. @11 psi with M100 should be able run 18 psi or more. So 750 ish. Well into what used to be stout BBC territory...

You drove through Calgary so come on up....

Did you ever take to a track or virtual track run?


MBHD

This weekend if all goes well we'll run the 1/4.

Last tune on pump gas resulted in 530 RWHP @ 15# boost.

A aborted M100 pull with a really rough tune added close to 110HP on top of the gas tune at 5000. It like the fuel... a LOT!

Next week M100 tune...

Have you considered ethanol?

Not near as caustic or toxic (not criticizing, just curious).

Went to the track Sat... best 11.60 @ 117.53 Leaving on the Tbrake @5#

I'm thinking if I leave at 10# it will chop another 4-5 tenths off... knocking on 10's... only will get 1 shot at it though - no bar..

Next time I head by a public scale I'm going to weight the truck. My guess is close to 4000#

So far pretty happy with the results.. got 18 MPG on the way home...

No where around here to get ethanol in volume...

Congrats!
I assume you were running sticky tires?
T-brake on the 4L80E? What make is the T/brake? Jakes?

Any vids of your run?

MBHD

MT DOT Drag radial 235/60-15. Tbrake is from Jakes.

Nice!

How do you like the T-brake & what RPM are you launching at?

MBHD

For a turbo deal I really like the TBrake. Later in the year once I have the transmission sheild in place and some other work completed I'll go back to the track and try leaving at 10#.

I was watching the boost gage not the tach. The MS3 has a boost launch control - basically set the desired boost, enable the tbrake/launch and floor it. The controller does the rest of hte work - maintains engine rpm/boost levels until the button is released. If I hit wheelspin then there is a delay time I can set before the boost is allowed to ramp up.

Finished the M100 tune last night - >100 RWHP/hole.... same on torque.... just lower rpm :)) this was @ 15# boost... The GT4088 turbo is maxed out. I have a GT4570 on the shelf but I have fab to do to get it installed

It has a dual personality for sure.. mild mannered on gas/low boost AND a brute on M100...

Went to the dump with the truck - more to weigh it than anything else....

Its got porky... 500# more than the last time I had it on the scales. 4375# !

Guess the biggest adds were the 4L80e and the dana 60.


A bit more from the last dyno session...
The boost peaked at 18# @4500 holding until 5200 then tapered off to 15 at 5300 holding steady until the end of the pull at 6200 rpm..

Max torque (wheel) was 608 Lb/ft and 605 hp at 5200 - the torque fell off with boost. Figure 15% drive train loss. Darn close to 3 HP(flywheel/cu_in) This is on M100 - 5* of added timing made a big jump in power (40 HP). I checked the turbo map - its maxed out...

The dyno operator has tuned a lot of high HP cars (2800+ hp 10.5" tire cars etc..) figures if the boost held at 18# we would get close to 710 RWHP...

At 8# its already making 450 RWHP at 4000 - peaks at 510 at 9.5 - this is on 94 octane pump gas.

I have some plenum work to do and get the GT4570 installed. Before the end of the year we'll make another trip to the track..

Old Jimmies don't die they go faster (GMC 1/2 ton)....

That is impressive. Your hard work is paying off.

For my 67 Chev short box step-side, I was thinking of a 292 inline. Now considering a 4200 inline with a 700R transmission.

Aside from your 51 GMC Do you have any experience with the 4200 GM inline swapped into 67-72 Chevs?

For the electronics what sort of changes can you suggest?

From the internet it appears that some wiring must be deleted from the wiring harness. As part of the wiring do you know if the gauge panel have to be included?

Is there anyone, who would you recommend as a street-rod wiring company, in Alberta or in Canada?

Having obtained a modified wiring harness, what would be my next step?


Side note: Does anyone still make a supercharger kit for this engine?

Jeremy on lime-swap.com can supply the modded harness and re-programmed PCM.

I'd suggest using a 4L60e as its the native transmission for the 4200 and the PCM with control it. Also its a direct bolt up. The TH700 would need an adapter plate.

The best approach is find a rolled donor vehicle so you can get the every thing including the small parts that you'll end up chasing.

All the boosted installs are home rolled..

I should be going to the Grey eagle casino car cruise with the truck - is in sw calgary tomorrow night - come on down and have a look.

Hopefully see U tonight!

Nice to have met you last night. Your comments about trouble producing rear sump casings, made me wonder about CNC billet manufacturing process. Did you ever inquire about such cost$$$$?
Just thinking out loud!!

I looked into a CNC pan. Ballpark $2000.

The Rolls Royce guy will do the R&D on a rear sump design, which would provide a proprietary ownership for only $5K. Now where is my piggy bank?

Marc already has a rear sump cast pan available, don't know if there would be any takers for a CNC one at that kind of money he got quotes on. Not really any need for one with the cast one available.

I thought Marc had lost his casting source.

He mentioned here and on several other forums he had a price increase in their production, but no mention of not being able to produce them any longer.

1200 HP worth of inliners...

4200 powered.....

Taken in Reno during hot august nights....

Marc did you have and alignment or tire problem on the front? Or did Beater take the picture?

Nice car.
How bout some details on it?
How is your GMC coming along?
How do you like the 4L80E so far?

MBHD

I thing the alignment is ok .. must be the light angle..

Took a while to get used to the 2.48 1st gear.. the 29 belongs to Tom T. a fellow inliner. 4200 powered - excellently executed piece.

Here are some pictures of Tom's roadster. I left my camera in my pickup at the bar-b-que in Wendover. They made me park across the street from the real Inliners so I didn't get pictures of Marc' s and Erik's trucks with the hoods up. There was a lot of interest in those two 4.2s. Very different approaches to a similar end. Well sorta' similar.

Here it is making some pretty snazzy sounds. (Tom's Roadster, I have no video of Marc's truck on the rollers, that he hasn't already posted )

http://s240.photobucket.com/user/nexxuss...fe7693.mp4.html

And contrasting that 'snazzy sound' check out my old 292 huffin' away last month (see my Photobucket...Dyno Runs Album).
It didn't post big #s, but it ran up smooth and didn't blow up!
I'll have to apologize for the photog work. It was a last second deal with the camera having to be tossed down from the front seat.

Put 3300 miles on the truck - Calgary, Reno (hot august nights), Bonneville (Sausage on the Salt), Calgary.

It likes to cruise at 85 (2500 rpm) got about 16 mpg with the low reverse band draging in the transmission. Once the turbo was replaced the drive from Reno to Wendover was quick...

Wounded/consumed parts

turbo (something broke loose and went through the compressor)- not a cheap fix..

2 gallons of coolant..

low/reverse band and forward planetary in the 4l80...

Cruise control worked well unless it yanked the throttle to far and the turbo spooled hard - then it freaked out.. close open close ..

Air conditioning worked well enough not to be un-comfortable.

Put 800 + miles on the '53 Chevy with 270 GMC to Bonneville and back. 70-80 mph 14 mpg. Had to tinker with the throttle cable on the way out because we had messed with it while thinking of putting the TBI/ Megasquirt on. I think the MS will improve the milage. No cruse control except for the hand throttle, no AC, reverse is fine and coolant OK. Hauled Wood from Tahoe today. No radiator in the bed.

Looks like all the money Marc saved on doing the 4200 swap he is having to spend on fixing it every time he takes it on a trip. Ready to swap back to a 292 yet Marc.

ahhhhhh nope - that turbo never gave a hint of problems - someone suggested that a piece of the k&n broke off and went through the turbo.

If anything I'd put a ported head late 4200 in with a header and good exhaust..

The no reverse is weird - not even the trans shop I consulted had heard of a cocked band before and they have been around since 1970....

I call these teething problems, like anything else the further you go away from stock the more issues will crop up..

Annoyed - a bit - fead up to point of "enough" no. Stubborn possibly.

I think Marc spent way more money into that 4200 swap than his expensively built 292 ever cost, no?

Keep plugging away Marc!

MBHD

Our speedometer isn't fully calibrated, so the best I can give is 3000 ish miles, with the only casualty being one of the AC hard pipes (one of the reasons we went to Reno was to get that fixed).

We got between 18 and 19 MPG @ 85, with the odometer being off, that calculates out to near 21 MPG.


No carnage with the trans, we could haul a little bit of wood under the bed cover, if it was thin enough.

I think you guys are pioneers out there cruising the West in your high tech conestogas. When I was a kid we took many trips from Texas to California and I don't remember any that didn't include a fairly major breakdown,some really major. A 3,000 mile trip in a new build with only minor problems is amazing. I'll haul the wood you guys haul ass!

At least the transmission fix was inexpensive.. $36 for a new band just a lot of hours

What happened to the band?

MBHD

The band cocked a 1/4" sideways on the drum - wore the friction material and would not engage. New band, slightly longer pin - good to go.

The 4l80 works the convertor harder than the 4l60 to get moving... kinda miss that low 1st gear...