Just thought I'd start a topic for you that will pertain to your build & technical questions.

No thread stealing or other topics allowed here.

snowman4839,
if you focus & stay on track,we will help you out,but focus please.
I know you are thinking of a million things you can do or would want to do to your ride.
Just take one step @ a time & you can get it done.You can start your own topic,just thought I'd give you something to think about.

MBHD

haha thanks Hank. Like I told you in the message, I'm working on the windshield at the moment so that I can drive it to school and not have it leak if it rains while I'm in class.

I'm just trying to flush out all the ideas I have and think of different combinations before I start buying things that I might not need or be able to use and then end up wasting the little money that I have. I know it seems like I'm bombarding you with questions but that's why I seem to go off onto tangents and change my mind every month. But I do have a general plan that you guys have helped with some...

- Offenhauser 4 barrel intake #5416
- An edelbrock 600cfm? 4 barrel
- T3/T04e turbo with BOV
- Stock exhaust manifold with fabbed piping for the turbo. (or would I need a certain type of exhaust manifold?)
- Turbo Cam and valvetrain (who sells those? tlowe?)
- HEI

When I get some money saved up and have a summer of free time...
- Head work. (port and polish)
- Lump ports
- Block work (bore and hone. shave deck?)
- Stronger crank, rods, and pistons so I can run higher PSI
- Raise Compression? (What would that entail? Would it be worth it? Would I have to run CRAZY octane to keep from knocking because wouldn't high compression + high psi = ridiculous octane necessity? I hear that 194 head would raise it but wouldn't that restrict flow a lot? Shave the deck?)
- Lump ports

That's mostly it. I said in my other thread that I ordered Santucci's second edition book which pre-orders were supposed to ship today (but probably tomorrow since today is a weekend day). I probably check out the library for a turbo book.

EDIT: What would the project HP/Trq be with THIS setup?

If you can find one,,,get the truck 292 exhaust manifold w/the larger outlet.
I think an Edelbrock AVS carb would be easier to adjust than the AFB, for adustability on the secondaries,but the AFB is more of a performance carb. Anyone else ? Carb info.

600 CFM is OK,but mileage not as good as a 500 CFM carb.
All depends on your goals.
I would suggest Comp cams for a camshaft,but there ar others.
The 194 is a good head & Sissells or Larry can get it flow just fine,it's not a restriction.

But,,,, if you are getting pistons
,more than likely,you would not need a 194 head also.
So use your cyl head you have & buy those pistons for $300.
You can turn down the center on a lathe to reduce the compression,otherwise compression would be about 9.5:1 approx. A bit high for non computer controlled turbocharged engine.

Raise compression,pistons yes,9.0:1 is fine,$600 approx,but there forged & made for boost.,milling head,50-$100
That one guy has forged 307 pistons for $300,did they sell here?
This guy had them:
https://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=6
That will save you $300.There a bit heavy,but that's OK.

Yep, shave deck to get a zero deck.
Stock crank is strong,get turned & shot peened,maybe heat treat if needed.,Crower or Scat rods.

You can run stock compression & not worry as much about detonation & having to run high octane gas. It would be just a bit sluggish when out of boost.

If you build a nice longblock,ported head,camshaft,intercooled,meth inj,I can say an easy 325-450 HP (@ the wheels) range on 18-22 psi range & a lot more torque than 400 Ft lbs.Just thinking off the top of my head,so it's just a guess. There are many many variables.
BTW, this is just a ball park figure,depends on your tunning ability also.

MBHD

is the 18-22psi streetable? and what things would get the best gas mileage besides using a 500cfm over a 600cfm?

Yes that's streetable.
As long as you have meth injection & the correct electronics to protect your engine.

I run 20-23 psi on 91 octane on my V-6.
It's that high because the heads are that restrictive.

Hmmm, better gas mileage,,,stay out of boost.
Run as much total timing as possible when out of boost.
Hard to do when you do not have electrical devise to say when & where you want high total timing.
MBHD

well I'm looking at getting HEI and an MSD box when I get the money

For the MSD box, you may want to buy a BTM (Boost Timing Master) this allows pulling of timing when boost is sensed. You do not want to buy parts twice. Tom

What octane gas do you have to use? 93,91,94?

If it's 91 octane,you will most likely need alky injection @ 22 psi. Even the 93 & 94 will have a problem supressing detonation.

The more total timing you can use,the more power you will make.

Meth is a super chiller & will lower the intakes temps.

I am about done installing the alky control http://alkycontrol.com/ on my Syclone,It's a nice kit.

Hopefully when all done w/the alky control & the AEM Tru boost controller installed,I will increase the boost,faster turbo spool-up to 24-26 psi have better & adjustable boost control I will finally run 11's in the 1/4 all on pump 91 octane fuel.
It weighs 3600 lbs(no driver) street driven truck.
(sorry it's not an inline,but it's all I have running as of now )

I had the Aquamist system installed before which helped w/cooling the intake temps & supress detonation,but,the pump is not strong enough to really take advantage of injecting methanol.

When I inject methanol in the hot Syclone engine momentarily,the intake manifold instantly cools off to what feels like 40 degrees,I'll have to use my Mastercool Digital Infrared Thermometer,, I have it calibrated for work.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Mastercool-52224-A-D...DefaultDomain_0


MBHD

We have 91 at the pumps

The only thing I just thought about is where to actually buy methanol. I can't really think of a place to. I've seen a few places online like http://www.amazon.com/Methanol-Methyl-Al...82430005&sr=1-4 . Where do you buy it?

Also how much did your alky kit cost? And what car did you put it on?

Previous comment: I am about done installing the alky control http://alkycontrol.com/ on my Syclone,It's a nice kit.

Cost:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Alkycontr...sQ5fAccessories

I believe Methanol should cost 2-5 dollars a gallon.

Walmart sells a product called :HEAT: it's in a yellow plastic bottle. High % of methanol in Heat.

Go kart places sells it.
VP racing fuel sells it,chemicle distributers & so-on.




MBHD

Ok Guys an updtae on my alkycontrol set-up installed in my Syclone.
First impression is WOW! this is a huge difference from the Aquamist 1S system I previously had on it.
I dont even have methanol in the tank yet & that will be an even better improvement. I am running 99% isopropyl alky.

As I always stated,if your going to run a turbo or blower on pump gas,always install a methanol alky system,it's awesome!!!!
My 1S Aquamist system was non progressive,but the alkycontrol kit is a progressive system.
Product support is great also.

MBHD

well that's good Hank. What's different about it?

And is alky short for alcohol or is it a brand?

Also why are you running isopropyl as opposed to methanol?

And my biggest fear is destroying my built engine so would I be able to hear it knock if I had the turbo and stuff on it? I have trouble hearing it stock and N/A.

Methanol is somewhat more corrosive, shouldn't use steel holding tank or fittings unless you can purge them after use.
Methanol has the highest energy content per liter, and the highest latent heat (which is what determines how much cooling): 473 BTU per lb vs iso at 335 or ethanol at 364. Straight water is far better at 970, but it doesn't burn - alcohol gives you back some of the energy.
Any common alcohol is available at any chemical plant or laboratory supply house (no, you don't want pharmaceutical grade), and most big paint stores.
You can make your own system at a fraction of the cost, but you pretty much have to know what you're doing, and the commercial stuff is easy to adjust and uses less liquid for the effect.

snowman4839,

The difference between the two systems is mainly the pump.
The Aquamist 1S pump cannot deliver that much alcohol(AKA ALKY)

The newer Aquamist systems are using the same type of pumps as the most injection kits,Like shureflow.

I ran out of methanol ,so I only had isopropyl in the garage,so that's what I put in there for the time being.

With the 1S Aquamist system,I could bring the engine rpm up to 2000-2500 (in park) ,turn on the pump & would inject methanol & the engine would not load up or miss from it pumping in the meth.

With the alkycontrol system,I could turn 3000 (in park)turn on the alkycontrol pump & even on the lowest setting, it would cause the engine to miss,run rough & load up the engine.

So basically saying,the alkycontrol system sprays a lot more alky.

All the forums I have been on, most all the guys running an alcohol injection system have tried water/methanol mixtures of 50/50 60/40 & so-on.

They all agree,running 100% meth is what makes the most HP & torque & supresses detonation better.

It has been proven time & time again on dynos & @ the track.

I suggested Tlowe to install a meth inj kit for years,we will see when & if he ever gets around to installing one.

One of the best mods you can do for a turbo or supercharged engine. Can't emphasize this enough guys,really, this is & has been a great mod to install for a street or street/race car.

I have been using it for years & it is just about as good as race gas or equal to race gas performance in certain cases. Anyways,it's a lot cheaper to use than buying race gas all the time.

Some guys even take out there intercooler & just run a meth inj kit instead.
They use methanol as there intercooler,a chemical intercooler.
Reduces air charge temperatures by 50-150+ degrees
Reduces cylinder temperatures by up to 300+ degrees
Increases your 87-93 octane pump gas by 8-20+ points
Allows you to safely run more boost and timing
Longer more stable combustion expansion and progression
Removes carbon build-up from combustion chambers, pistons and valves
Reduces and helps eliminate engine damaging detonation and pre-ignition
No need for expensive racing fuel or additives


July 1981 Hot Rod magazine

Fuel, combustion heat (BTU), Octane, Stoichiometric A/F

Gasoline, 115000, 86(maybe), 14.7:1
Methanol, 57000, 91, 6.4:1
Ethanol, 76000, 92, 9.0:1
Isopropyl, 86000, 99, 10.3:1

MBHD

I've been thinking about building my up pipe and j pipe out of sheet metal. Is there any advantage to using actual pipe?

I've also been wondering... What's the power curve gonna be like? Is it gonna have no low end power and then surge at like 2500 rpm when the boost comes in fully?

Using pipe will be much easier to form than using sheetmetal.

The tq will increase with boost. It only depends on when the boost starts coming in. You will notice the increase with little as 1 PSI. Tom

Power curve,,,, well that depends on your turbo selection & camshaft & compression & tuning & ect.

Schedule 40 NSP weld els tubing will work the best & is cheap
Look here to give you an idea

http://www.sdsefi.com/techheader.htm ,these pipes are ready to weld & are real tough.

MBHD

Alright, I know it's been awhile but the reason I didn't want to use pipe is because I don't have a way to bend it.

Someone mentioned I should get a 292 exhaust manifold for more flow and a bigger outlet.
So is this what it should look like? The outlet looks like it's in a weird place compared to my 250 exhaust manifold or maybe I just hallucinating. Would this bolt onto a 250 head without mods??

The pipes I metioned to get are from McMaster Carr,,they schedule weld els,no bending,just pieces to weld only,did you look @ McMaster Carr?
Here are pics of the weldable fittings.
http://sdsefi.com/techheader.htm

The exhaust manifold probably has a different location for the exit,but that should not matter.
It bolts right onto your cylinder head.

If it has a 2.5" outlet ,then that is the correct one.
Good price,jump on it if it has a 2.5" outlet or @ least close to a 2.5" outlet.
You could also use these http://app.ecwid.com/image/3280809?ownerid=149402 (I wanted to @ one time) run the 2 pipes into one pipe before the turbo & have the turbo mounted on the passenger side to give you a little more room to play with.


MBHD

Well it's official guys! Just got the first part to my turbo build! I just turned 16 yesterday and I asked my parents and they got me a Offy 5416 with a rebuilt holley 390 for $225 so I think it's a pretty amazing deal.

http://augusta.craigslist.org/pts/1950580052.html

Thats a start and a good price as well. Tom

Snowman, good deal. When I turned 16 I had the '38 Ford coupe that my brother gave me. He got it for $15. It was running a Flat V8 that my dad and I built. Family is wonderful!!! Friends are OK too. Beater

Haha $15??? Man... Now THERE'S a deal...

So would the 292 exhaust port be bigger than the 250 and be big enough to where it'll have suffcient flow for a turbo setup? It just seems odd to use a stock manifold for a high-performance setup.

You may want to check to see if the truck 2 1/2 manifold will fit your chassis. It does move the exh outlet quite abit forward. Tom

Done a couple of blow through setups and a very small carb seems to work better. I did a blow through BBC with 2 450 Holleys in a box. Made 960hp at 5600 and 9psi on a 502 boat with iron heads. People I talked to said the smaller carbs would run better than even 600s. I didn't argue, but the customer was very pleased.
I did a 250 blow through in a 62 Chevy II and got the best results with a Ford Autolite 2barrel from a Ford truck. I still have it and will look for numbers if you want. You can get them for cheap and they are bulletproof.
Turbo makes the air denser, not faster so a carb big enough to run your engine NA will run it just fine with boost
Also, annular boosters work best.
You might check on The Turbo Forums for blow through carb info-they have a lot of great info on this!!!

Thanks hotrodrobert. I'm actually thinking about maybe running a large two barrel a little bit. It would be fantastic if you could dig up those turbo 250 numbers.

Hey guys, just out of curiosity... If I do manage to make 350-450 hp out of this thing, if I drive like a normal perso. Without getting into the turbo and short shifting it, what type of mileage would I get? Or at least what type of mileage do you guys get with similar setups

With no overdrive, maybe 15. With overdrive 18-21. Just my guess from my experience. Tom

For mileage, my Chevy II got upper teens with a 3.73 gear and a 350 turbo. I didn't drive it long enough to really get the mileage up and a gear would have helped a lot or overdrive.
I had a draw through on a 70 Nova with a 3.08 gear that got consistent low to mid 20's as a daily driver for years. It was a 4 speed and driving hard made it suck gas.
I am redoing the Chevy II now probably with a 292. I haven't decided on fuel delivery yet but I would consider a blow through 2v on that engine too. Figure the air flow you need na and use that for the size you need for best driveability and the turbo will take care of the power. Use the power valve to richen the mixture under boost and leave the jets small for mileage.
Holley uses the formula (RPM x CID)/3456 to get the needed cfm.

Wow. Didn't realize it would be that good. That's what my dad's 09 chevy colorado gets (16-19mpg). well cool. That means I won't go broke driving it after I fix it all up.

Still really interested in those dyno numbers hotrodrobert.

Just wanted to let you guys know that I finally got santucci's book. I just went ahead and got his first edition on ebay. There's some REALLY good stuff in here. Thanks for recommending it. Next up is Corky Bell's turbo book. Do any of you guys know Santucci? Just wondering because the inliner community seems pretty tight-knit.

Where would I get an HEI dist? A junkyard? I'm not sure if these are stupid questions but does it have to be 194/230/250 specific or can I also use a 292 hei or can I just use a straight 6 or v6 hei?

The only place I know to get it is stovebolt but that's like a little over $100.

A junkyard is a good start. 250's and 292's started using them in 1974 or 75.
Keep in mind a rebuild is a good thing to plan on.

A spring/ weight kit and a vacum advance can with possibly a higher output coil are also in order. It will use different wires than you present point type dist, so why not wait to buy the wires?

There are some that have two shafts, (= more slop)& others have a single shaft = (preferred.)
When I used to go to the junk yards,I used to find more split shaft distributers than the solid one one piece.
The split shafts are held together w/a roll pin.
Also, there are many w/internal coil in the cap & less external coils,1 or 2 years made that way?

IIRC,1975 ,was the first year on inline 6's for HEI's
Also, the plug gap that year was excessive,the following year ,the GM reduced the plug gap to improve passing emmissions easier.


MBHD

Well I'm working on getting and HEI dist from 56er but I gotta wait for him to dig them up.

Wouldn't it make more sense to get headers and then join the two collectors into a turbo flange? I've been doing some reading about what other people have done and it seems that the stock iron manifold (even the 2.5in one) isn't good for anything except for stock or slightly above stock setups. Would there be any noticeable difference between a joined-header-to-flange setup and just making an up-pipe off of the stock manifold?

I'll hopefully be getting the offenhauser and holley 390 in the next few days. The guy said he'd be around my town on thanksgiving but he hasn't answered his phone today and I've called him twice. If he doesn't respond, I'll just look into getting a clifford. I read a writeup someone wrote about different intakes with the same carb and the clifford seems to be nearly identical in the lower performance and slightly better in the high performance applications.

If I were on a tighter budget than I am I would run the 2.5" cast manifold with the J-pipe just you. In fact, I honestly wonder if I went the right direction. You will make quite a bit of horsepower before this setup will be holding you back enough to require a change. Making clifford or langdon shorties into a single turbo header will be a lot more complex and not a whole lot faster.

alrighty thanks.

at what psi would that cause a restriction?

This I can't tell you with any certainty. I would bet that you would be in 400's before this is your problem, but that is just an educated guess. 400 real horsepower ain't hay - it would be what I call a "90%er" - tuned well with matched gears, it will beat 90% of the cars out there. Although this isn't a direct comparison, lots of LS1 guys are building 800+ horsepower turbo engines off truck manifolds turned forward. I have seen multiple 400+ hp 2.3L ford turbo engines built off a stock turbo manifold as well. And Hank will undoubtedly be able to tell of 650+ hp SyTy's on stock manifolds was well.

During a conversation with the guy from Sissell's (My mind draws a blank on his name you guys know who I'm referring to - Mike?) and he recommended limiting boost to 14# on the inlines. 13# on the squirrel performance website turbo calculator would make 425hp on a 250. So for 12-13# boost and 400hp, the 292 manifold and a steel pipe elbow is simple, easy, cheap, durable, and well matched to the power output. Cheap easy and effective - that's how I like it!

Anything smaller than the turbine inlet.

If the truck manifold is really 2.5" , running a 2.5 "J" pipe,you can make quite a bit of power.


The problem/design flaw w/the stock manifold is not having equal flow from all the exhaust ports, sharp 90 degree bends,etc..

There are plenty of people that have used a ugly log type turbo manifold & have made a lot of power.
IIRC, Leo's 292 turbo ex manifold is not too pretty & is basically a log type manifold & his engine makes good power.PG. 143.Power manual.

I believe he could make more power from a better designed manifold,but like I stated earlier, you can make good to great power even w/log type turbo ex manifolds.

The record power from a 250 CI turbo L6 w/a SPA turbo manifold is around 780 HP,single turbo.
The SPA manifold is pretty well designed,but for all out power,a tubular ex turbo manifold will make more power.

As 56er stated,guys can make a lot of HP & more torque w/stock Syclone/Typhoon manifolds,around 740-750 range on pump 93 octane fuel.
BTW,the Sy/Ty manifolds look & are very restrictive,but up to a certain level oh HP they still work fine.
Let me post a pic if I can find one,,,,,hmmmmm,
http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=42926&highlight=exhaust+manifold+pics&page=2 3rd pic from top of pg.
Just 1 side to give you an idea ,plus the ports do not match up to the heads,turbo flange has a mismatch also.

The turned around ( FWD facing ) LS manifolds look almost like headers & many people run those & weld on v-band flanges to bolt on turbo/s


MBHD

So if it's not going to be making copious amounts of power, I should be fine? Ok. Well I'm going to probably using the stock manifold and not the truck exh mani. Would that .25in make that much difference?

Alrighty! Christmas is coming up and my parents told me to buy $200 worth of parts for christmas so I get to choose :-))). I really need help choosing a turbo and I'm not sure which A/R ratios to choose. I'm assuming the A/R should be relatively small since I'm not going to be running high boost until much later. I'm going to buy my stuff off of ebay so that's where I'll give examples from.

T3/T04e .63 A/R turbo (is this anything close to what I need?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-T04E-6...#ht_4635wt_1167

Wastegate (I'm assuming since I'm fabricating the setup, I can choose any wastegate right?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/38mm-TURB...#ht_3146wt_1167

B.O.V. (fabrication means any B.O.V. too right?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Type-RS-T...#ht_5825wt_1167

Intercooler (anyone that I can make fit right?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/28X9X2-25...7#ht_2869wt_941

money has been a bit tight saving up for this stuff (among other things) so I haven't gotten corky's turbo book yet. Let me know what you guys think.

The truck manifold is supposed to be .500" bigger.
So yes, 1/2 inch is going to make a difference in the top end power output.

Ask guys here if they have one for sale.


MBHD

I thought the normal 250 was 2.25" and the 3 bolt 292 was 2.5"

Since I was taking pics, here is difference between solid and pinned shaft.

Solid:

pinned:

56er,
Nice to see the pics ,thanks for that.
Now people can see what I was mentioning in an earlier post.

[/quote] 56er

Since I was taking pics, here is difference between solid and pinned shaft.

Solid:

pinned: [/quote]

I think the pinned shaft was to lessen dist. gear wear for shaft missalignment. I have always ran one even with a HV high pressure oil pump with no problems.

Harry

Interseting. Maybe that's why I always wore out my distributer gears w/the solid one piece shaft w/a high volume oil pump?

But,,,,, I also use a solid shaft one piece w/standard volume oil pump w/no wear problems. Same block, just changed pump & no problems.

As far as High Volume and High Pressure oil pumps go, Mellings web sight stated that only more pressure could put more wear on a dist. gear and shaft. Both pumps have the same relief springs so the pressure is the same with either pump.

So with either pump wear should be the same if everything else is the same.

I like the pin style and have not any problems, I even shim my spring to a higher rate than stock to help the oil wedge in case of detonation.

Harry

Hmm ,strange.
Because when I switched to a high volume mellings pump over there stock volume mellings pump, my pressure went up quite a bit.
Then I put a stock mellings pump back in pressure went down.
The mellings pumps were called high volume high pressure pumps arn't they? Higher volume & higher pressure.No?
At least that's what happened when I swapped pumps.


MBHD

Even with the stock spring, pressure will be up at all points before the bypass opens.

I've had the same experience with the pressure going up and just figured that the increased volume moving thru the pump increased the pressure?

The maximum pressure is going to be either:
1. the relief valve spring setting, or
2. the highest the pump can deliver if the bearings are really loose, SAE 5 oil, etc.

An exception is where the bypass port is simply too small to dump enough volume (almost all stock pumps), and pressure rises above the relief setting. This is why you see these comments: "My cold pressure is 70, but when it warms up it's 40". This is not poor quality control or a defective pump: it's a design error.

MBHD, The HV Mellings pump is only High Volume the relief spring is the same on the pumps.

Mellings states that HV pumps are not harder on the dist. gears just flow more volume.

The point I was trying to make why not run one for the extra safety of knowing you have enough oil flow.

Everyone thought dist. gear wear was from higher pressure of the HV pump, but it's from missalignment of the dist.gear to the camshaft gear.

Harry

How to put this?
A larger pump always pumps more volume. There's no way to do that without more load on the drive.
The fact that the extra oil doesn't reach the crank is irrelevant.

I can only comment on my own personal experience.

After wearing out 2-3 camshafts from Clifford including the new distributer gears quickly.
Also did the same on an American racing cam.

I decided to install a standard volume Mellings oil pump.
Same engine,I just dropped the pan in the car,installed a new standard Mellings pump & installed a new dizzy gear again.

I never had a problem with wearing out the drive on the camshaft & never had to change distributer gears.

Maybe I had something else going on?

Those are the reasons I just run standared volume pumps,also IIRC, Mike Kirby told me a standard pump is fine to use.

Maybe on my new engine I might try a HV pump again,,
Just a glutton for punishment?


MBHD

Hank you could have also had a soft cam core as well. That could have been a bad batch that Clifford had and not have realized it. Many times when guys rebuild an engine, they reuse their old thrust plates and spacer, when they should really be thrown away and replaced. I bet no one here has ever thought to check their cam thrust endplay when they build an engine. That is the leading cause of distributor gear wear, more so than HV or high pressure oil pumps are. Thats why most race engines use a cam button in the end of their cams to limit, because they will eat a gear up in a hurry if they don't.

Panic,

My last post on this subject, it's ok to disagree.

Mellings says load can only be caused from pressure, resistance of flow causes pressure, the relief spring is what sets the oil pressure.

Harry

Melling is giving, shall we say, a far simpler explanation than what they know to be the truth.
You can leave both the discharge port and relief valve open, and remove the bearings - and it still requires power to turn the gears.
If you figure out how to make a larger pump produce more flow without any additional drag you should patent it - it's never been done, because it's impossible.

Well I'm going to try and buy a HEI dist from 56er. So the pinned shaft will be fine? http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx74/Uglydog56/Distributer%20pics/DSCN1899.jpg (on the right)
I still don't understand the difference between pinned and solid.

And back to my questions before it kinda got off topic...
Would these work?
T3/T04e .63 A/R turbo (is this anything close to what I need?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-T04E-6...#ht_4635wt_1167

Wastegate (I'm assuming since I'm fabricating the setup, I can choose any wastegate right?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/38mm-TURB...#ht_3146wt_1167

B.O.V. (fabrication means any B.O.V. too right?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Type-RS-T...#ht_5825wt_1167

Intercooler (anyone that I can make fit right?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/28X9X2-25...7#ht_2869wt_941

And just out of curiosity... I was watching a video of this guy with a like a 3 Liter I-6 2JZ engine in his 96 or so Toyota supra. He made like 650hp at ~19psi and 950hp and ~40psi. He had forged pistons and rods and everything. Why couldn't you make that kind of horsepower with another liter of disp. and the same types of mods?

Its already been done. Just takes deep pockets. Several guys in Brazil are getting close to 1000 HP out of their combos, but they are using 12 port heads and heavily modified engines with main girdles and other $$$$ parts to handle that kind of HP level.

[img][/img]

Because that's a dual overhead cam 4 valve per cylinder engine with vastly superior cylinder head development, better cylinder head sealing, more efficient cooling system, much larger engineering margins, designed to be turbocharged with significantly more aftermarket support. That engine is probably turning 8 grand. And you can drive it on the street like that. A 250 radical enough to spin 8 grand will not be streetable at all. You just can't squeeze a chevy 6 that hard, the head and block decks are just too thin. We're fighting a poor head design as well. I had one of these to put in my 71 mustang with 272 cams, a header, HX40 turbo, and greddy i'c (600hp setup), then Fast & Furious Tokyo drift came out and suddenly I was a copycat, so I sold it. I wonder sometimes if I shouldn't have kept it and used it, but the 292 will look so much more appropriate, and you just can't beat that chevy 6 sound.

The Toyota L6 you are talking about is a stout engine stock.
Guys have just added mods to stock longblock & have made 800 HP & the engine stays together.
4 valve head = much better airflow & capable to make way more power than our Chevy L6 250's.
Look @ mighty 6's turbo 292,he says if he wanted to,his truck would be really streetable & he makes 750+ HP @ the wheels?
But, one thing,he started off w/a better cyliner head that flows over 300 CFM.

MBHD

alright. I expected the 4 valves per cylinder had something to do with it lol.

But would those parts work??? I REALLY need to buy them so they'll get here by christmas but I want to check with you guys first.

Could you repost the links to the parts,they expired.
Thanks

MBHD

sorry bout that.

T3/T04e turbo .63 compressor A/R
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-T04E-T...s#ht_7752wt_941

Wastegate (Does it really matter which one since I'm going to fabricate the setup?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/38mm-TURB...#ht_3224wt_1167

Intercooler (2.5" for the 2.5" exhaust manifold)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/UNIVERSAL...#ht_4012wt_1010

B.O.V. (again does it matter since I'm fabricating the setup?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Universal...#ht_5777wt_1167

and I'm going to get a 2.5" truck exhaust manifold. I also assume I need a bigger fuel pump so what kind of specs should the fuel pump have?

We talked to some supra guys about this. It is the complete package. The high nickel blocks make for a durable build. When building big hp these motors dont make any power under 6000 rpm. Then they spin them up to 9-10,000 prm. They put a 150 shot of nitrous to spool the turbo. They have a FZ1FE 4.5 liter motor the looks just like the GM 4200. I would say GM borrowed there design. The 4200 can be built to make power like the 2jz. It just takes a few more parts to make the block a little stronger. That cost a little more money and turns a few poeple away from the 4200.

snowman4839,

the turbo should work ok,but just to make the install a bit easier & less parts to buy maybe use there other one like: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-T04E-T...=item43a162a252

The turbine wheel is a little small,but it will work.
I run the stock type internal wastegate on my Syclone & make about 400+ HP to the wheels.
The BOV, is low dollar & I have one of those types on my Syclone & so-far it seems to hold boost & works fine.
I know you are working from a budget (me also) & all you items are low $ and should work fine on low boost aplications.
It's just when you start wanting more boost & make a lot more power is most likely when some of these parts might fail on you.

Intercooler should be fine,just try to see where your plumbing for the intercooler is going to route, so you can see how you need the ins & out of the intercooler tanks.
I made sure not to use 90 degree bends,you can if you need to ,but it will hurt in flow.


For fuel pump,I always used an electric Holley,need to research for a good mechanical pump,& boost reference off the pump,maybe someone on the BB knows of one?
You need higher psi than the boost pressure you are going to run.

MBHD

Alrighty thanks MBHD. The reason why I was lookin at the external wastegate is because I've heard that internal ones are prone to boost creep. It just seemed easier to make it external. Is that a valid worry? How would I change the pressure that an internal wastegate opens? Does it use springs like a external?

Also, do you have any idea what an the stock mech. pump fuel pressure is?

snowman4839,

External wastegates boost creep also,that's why you would use one of these or others:AEM Tru-Boost Controller Gauge Control system & Display
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AEM-Tru-B...Q5fAccessories.
I have the tru boost on my Syclone & it holds rock steady boost pressure w/my internal wastegeted turbo.
Crack pressure is when the valve opens prematurely.
If you use a external or internal wastegate they boost creep.
Example:your internal or external wastegate will have a spring tension of say 5psi,,so when you are starting to boost up say 3 psi,,,the valve will start to open & increase the time for your turbo to spool up, (boost will be slower to rise)
W/an electronic boost controller ,if you set it to say the same 5 psi,your wastegate valve will not open until the programmed 5 psi is made.
If you are talking about boost spiking,that's a different scenario. When you are running high boost high HP aplications,the internal wastegate sometimes cannot maintain & controll your boost pressures,normally because the internal wastegate valve is too small.

When you want all the power you can get w/out causing turbulance & causeing the turbo to slow down,then you would use an external wastegate.
There are adjustale external wastegate actuators.
http://www.forgemotorsport.com/content.asp?inc=product&cat=0001&product=FMAC9000A
Ther are external actuators that ypu change the springs also.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...id=150414755376
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORGE-adj...=item1c17bde139
Or do something like this a helper spring which I added to to my Syclone.



But there are different spring tension actuators.
Mine has a boost base pressure of 15 psi,meaning my Syclones minimal boost pressure is 15 psi it cannot have any less than 15 psi,I added the adjustable external spring if I wanted some more psi.


Here is my separate wastegate, Note: the position or how far downstream I reintroduce the wastegate exhaust back into the downpipe/main exhaust system,
Also note the shallow angle it comes into the downpipe,you do not want to go in @ a 90 degree angle.Key notes to make your turbo spool faster/boost faster & more power.


This set-up is for my SPA manifold.


This would not be an optimun set-up for the wastegate rentering the downpipe,too close to the turbine wheel,& the angle the wastegate pipe renters the downpipe.This is also a SPA manifold. http://12bolt.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/PIC00019.16952756.JPG
Also note: mine is not perfect either,I did try to reduce turbulence to a minimun from the wastegate exhaust.

or another option is to run a complete separate exhaust system w/a small muffler for the wastegated exhaust.

MBHD

Here are more updated pics of my turbo set-up,sorry it's taking so long,just dont have the time mainly, that & I always work on other projects,from house to motorcycles,etc.Money would speed up the process also.

The wastegate ID tubing I used is the same size of the valve in the wastegate,if you use smaller tubing you are not taking full advantage of the wastegates big valve.







I weighed this set-up & it's guite heavy,,62 LBS
So by the time I add this set-up,intercooler,plumbing I can see pretty easy 100 lbs added to the front end of my Camaro,just what I dont want
But I am sure the power it should produce will make up for the added weight, & make me do this

MBHD

alright guys. Just got the numbers I have $512.35 to buy my turbo stuff, carb, and 4 barrel intake.

I already have the 4 barrel and intake lined up for $225. So that brings the total to $287.35.

So being the type of person so second guess myself, here's my list and I would feel more comfortable having you guess do a last-second check before spending all of my money

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T04E-T3-T...#ht_3555wt_1167
$153

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/UNIVERSAL...e#ht_2872wt_941
$30.88

and I'll just have to save a little more money and find a intercooler that'll work.

That leaves $103.47 so I'll probably use that to buy that HEI off of 56er or that 2.5" outlet 292 manifold from tlowe.

All that sound good?

EDIT: MBHD, that looks like a great setup. what is it going in?

snowman4839,

just to remind you that turbo will work for as a daily driver type set-up,it will not make a lot of power as it is on the small side,especially the turbine wheel size.
The compressor housing A/R is small also. Compressor wheel size is OK.
It will spool very quick,but for a low buck install such as yours ,it will work,just do not expect a whole lot of power that's all.
This turbo is close to the specs I would feel be a better choice.
http://cgi.ebay.com/T3T4-T04E-TURBOCHARG...=item1e60334c8f
Note: not much selection on ebay

Let me search a bit on ebay for another turbo possibly.
It will make more power than stock engine.
Here is a better choice: http://cgi.ebay.com/T3T4-T04E-TURBOCHARG...=item1e60334c8f
but the A/R on the turbine housing of .96 is too big need a .63 or so.

The BOV is a low dollar piece & it should work OK for you.

Thanks for the nod on my set-up.
It will be going into my 69 Camaro.

MBHD

snowman,
You may already know about this but http://www.searchtempest.com is a good tool for searching craigslist. I've been shopping around for welding machines for a while, waiting for a deal and it is peak season for guys to be posting up their toys(car&garage related) for sale per the request of the women who must be obeyed. I havn't seen this much movement on CL in the past couple months or so welding machine wise. G'luck with your project.

MBHD. Well now that I'm thinking about the long-term for a sec, I guess I'll go ahead and spend the money on a turbo I can use in my endgame plan with the high pressure setup. What should I be looking for in terms of specifics on the turbo? You said a small A/R of around .63. But is there a minimum/maximum inducer/exducer size or something? I probably would've just bought the one you mentioned but it was almost $200 in just shipping from AU.

Thanks 68 falconohio. I've actually used that site before to find other cars to use for parts on my or my dads car. We actually found my dad's 400ci Buick v8 and turbo 400 transmission through craigslist and it seems like I used that site to find it.

Snowman,
I know you do not want to be buying parts 2 or 3 times, now you are sounding you are putting some real thought into this. Glad to hear that.
Just to give you more to think about. I think a Turbonetics 60-1 with P trim exh wheel and a .84-.96 housing would work very good for you. I feel a .58-.63 exh housing is just too small and will choke up your engines exhaust (later). This simular in size to the one I used this year on the Turbo 250, It spooled and ran great. I use a Turbonetis 62-1 on my 292 spec'd almost identical. Tom

snowman4839,

unless you want to use a high stall converter do not go bigger than a .64 or there abouts for your turbine housing A/R.

W/a .84, you will need a stall of @ least 2800 RPM & w/a .96 3500.
Your engine will not see boost until the higher RPMs.

You engine is a 250 CI ,it's not that big.
I will promise you this, if you go w/a bigger housing, it will run like a pig w/any stall lower 2800.

With a stick/manual trans,same thing, boost will not come in till later,not good for a daily driver, not enjoyable @ all.

A .96 will be a complete dog.

I would only recommend a turbo that works on an actual street driven car, not just a dyno test,two different worlds.

A "P" wheel is fine to use.

Look @ Precsion turbos, they are making a lot of new products.
Good things I hear about them.

So,in short,you need to know if you want a quick spooling DD, or a turbo that comes in later & will make more power. or somewhere in the middle.
Personally ,I see this is your DD & using a big turbine housing will hamper your enjoyment.Later, you can upgrade to a .84 or so A/R ,but w/an automatic tran,2800 minimum stall.

So just buy a good size turbo now but run a smaller A/R on the turbine housing. You could step up to a Q trim turbine wheel also.

MBHD

Snowman,
My 2 cents would be for a 60-1 p trim w/.84 ar. I ran one of these for years will make 500+ HP. but is very good on the street. 15-18 psi boost no intercooler, blow through.

This bigger A/R keeps it from going to boost just in normal driving, but roll your foot into the gas and it goes to full boost instantly. At a stop sign hold the brake and it will go to boost.

Yes a .63 ar will boost quicker but hurt overall performance, I did not need it on my setup.

The turbine wheel is more important, the ar just fine tunes it.

Just my thoughts,
Harry

I know I really should get corky bell's book but can you guys just run me the basics so I can make a educated decision?

What determines turbo "size"? Trim size? Compressor housing choice? Turbine choice? Inducer/exducer size?

I've looked through and the T04E looks to be a fairly big compressor housing. 2" outlet, 2.75"-3.00" inlet.
I'm not exactly sure what trim I looking for but i would assume a small one. Here are the available trims on a T04E from the turbonetics site
TO4E Compressor Wheels
Inducer dia. Major dia.
40 trim 1.870 3.00
46 trim 2.003 3.00
50 trim 2.122 3.00
54 trim 2.168 3.00
57 trim 2.227 3.00
60 trim 2.285 3.00
so maybe a 46-54 trim? and larger as a need/want?
and it's you guys have already said I need either a .63 housing (mbhd) or a .84-.96 (tlowe) but I'll probably go with a a .63 because that seems to be the A/R of all of the turbos I'm looking at and I don't want to risk slow spooling.

So really wouldn't I just get a T3 (turbine)/T04E (compressor) turbo with a with a .63 A/R and a small trim and use that for my low-boost setup and then when I build the block and am ready for the high-boost setup, raise the boost and change out the blades for a higher trim?

EDIT: just saw turbo-6's comments right after I posted, so go with a little bigger A/R so boost will come in later and not destroy my mileage and get a low trim for my low boost is the direction he's going. So now it seems to be a low-medium trim and then a .7x A/R with a T3/T04E turbo. That about right?

EDITED EDIT: just read tlowe's PM and it didn't occur to me to use a compressor different than a T04x. I didn't think about using a 60-series. I seem to find more usable A/Rs in these bigger turbos. So this one seems to be about all I need? Any comments? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-Super-...#ht_3389wt_1042

EDITED EDITED EDIT: I know i need to stop editing but which is the A/R and trim that matters? the turbine or compressor side?

Harry,
when you used this turbo,need to know if you had a manual trans,auto, what stall converter.
What size engine? Compression,etc,etc.
What RPM did it hit full boost.
Need details on your combo.
Snowman would probably think you had a stock torque converter.1200-1400 stall ,got great mileage etc.

MBHD
BTW,
Snowman is looking for a daily driver,good mileage,boost quickly,low boost all on his stock longblock.
He has a manual trans.His engine is a 250, not a 292,this makes a difference.He wants it to hit full boost close to 2000 RPM.
His engine is not going to turn high rpm for now & needs a combo to work w/what he has now.

Snow,
For your turbo, here is some of the criteria you need to use to pick one.
How much CFM does your engine need at different rpms.
How many pounds of air at boost

These are used to pick the compressor. Once that is picked then the exhaust side is used to help tune the turbo. The exhaust wheel and housing can be picked individually to form a combo to get desired boost at a rpm and not be too restrictive to the engine at cruise speeds or peaky when touching the throttle in normal driving. The opposite extreme is a turbo that does not produce the desired boost or is slow to boost.

You really need to get the books to study up on this before purchasing parts. Corky's and Hugh Mc(somethin) are great books on theory. There are newer books that I have bought that do not have the same valuable info they have. They are dated but so is this technology as is carburators. Advances have been made in both as we all know.

I like T4 turbo's because of more choices available for exhaust housings, wheels ect.

Keep in mind that a turbo is not something you just take apart and change wheels on and run again. It should be rebalanced and not alot of shops have the ability to do that. Some guys don't rebalance and get away with it, that is not the norm.

Turbo6 has ALOT of experience with turbos on inlines, keep that in mind.

On my Syclone ,the housings are in CM so w/this chart I can give a bit of info on housings I have used or friends have used that I drove there Syclone. I personnaly own all the housings I made comments about.
*IIRC, turbine measures 58.8/67.2mm

If you want pics I can post them.
MHI Turbine housing areas:

6 cm2 = 0.41 A/R
7 cm2 = 0.49 A/R
8 cm2 = 0.57 A/R Stock Syclone 8 CM,works great w/2100 stall
9 cm2 = 0.65 A/R
10 cm2 = 0.73 A/R Also works good w/2100 stall
11 cm2 = 0.81 A/R
12 cm2 = 0.89 A/R Takes a while to spool up needs closer to 2400
14 cm2 = 0.97 A/R Minimum 2600 w/lag, 2800 + Stall is better for fast spool-up
15 cm2 = 1.05 A/R
16 cm2 = 1.13 A/R
17 cm2 = 1.29 A/R
19 cm2 = 1.37 A/R
*Note: The Syclone engine is a 262 CI 4.3 engine,which B.T.W. is bigger thaan a 250 4.1 liter.
Now these are T3 housings That I have personnally used on my Syclone & friends Syclone,T3's flow different than a T4, a T4 will give you more lag time than a T3.

You can learn from other guys as I have about stalls needed to run .63, .84, .96 & up A/R's on T4 turbos, from journal bearing to BB. Remember the Syclone is a bigger engine than a 250.

You can also learn from guys on the Buick forums,stock engine size is 3.8,but they also run 4.1 liter 250CI & they have sponcers,that help them pick turbos & what stall to use.Those Buick guys have recipe engines & they know what works to run basic 12's, 11's 10's ,9's & faster,they made so many Buick GN's T-Types & there is a wealth oh knowledge over there on those BB's

MBHD

Nice chart.
MHI Turbine housing areas:

6 cm2 = 0.41 A/R
7 cm2 = 0.49 A/R
8 cm2 = 0.57 A/R Stock Syclone 8 CM,works great w/2100 stall
9 cm2 = 0.65 A/R
10 cm2 = 0.73 A/R Also works good w/2100 stall
11 cm2 = 0.81 A/R
12 cm2 = 0.89 A/R Takes a while to spool up needs closer to 2400
14 cm2 = 0.97 A/R Minimum 2600 w/lag, 2800 + Stall is better for fast spool-up
15 cm2 = 1.05 A/R
16 cm2 = 1.13 A/R
17 cm2 = 1.29 A/R
19 cm2 = 1.37 A/R

Wish it was easy to get one for every turbo manufacturer.

I think in the past you had said stock boost for the Cyclone is 12 or 15 psi. Buicks also run boost like that , stock. If Snow tries to do that to his 250, bad things will happen. He may progress to that point, but starting there will inevidibly end in failure. And disappointment.
This is his daily driver, not a weekend toy. He also has a tight, teenage budget.
Tom

The stock specs on the Syclone turbo is smaller that the turbo size you suggested.
A Td06 Mitsubishi stock type turbo will work fine, dont need to spin it as fast to make 12-14 psi.

That is why I suggested a small turbine housing to get fast boost responce, he is not looking to make a track car w/high boost.
Previous post.
BTW,
Snowman is looking for a daily driver,good mileage,boost quickly,low boost all on his stock longblock.
He has a manual trans.His engine is a 250, not a 292,this makes a difference.He wants it to hit full boost close to 2000 RPM.
His engine is not going to turn high rpm for now & needs a combo to work w/what he has now.
MBHD

ok well I need a turbo that can produce about 5-6lbs on low boost and 16-20lbs on high boost once I rebuild the bottom end. I want it to come in fully boosted by about 2500rpm.

So looks like I need a...
-~0.73 A/R for my turbine and similar for the compressor
-mid-small trim
-T3/T04E or T3/60 housings

tlowe - I know I need to read up on this stuff but I don't have money rationed for books right now and I really need to get this stuff ordered so that'll it'll be here by christmas.

This is the specs of a stock Syclone turbo compressor & turbine.
They are on the small side IMO
The engine is a 262 CI gets full boost ,when rolling into the throttle (14 PSI) by 2000 RPM,, 2100 RPM stall converter.

Turbine housing:
8 cm2 = 0.57 A/R
Compressor housing is a .60 I believe.


Compressor Wheel
48.3 mm / 68 mm(Inducer / Exducer)
Turbine Wheel
55.3 mm / 65 mm(Inducer / Exducer)

MBHD

So MBHD, by making the A/Rs small but keeping the trim decently sized, you can get quick boost and good CFM. That's what I've gathered from those specs.

So my choices appear to be...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-Super-...=item53e53e0404
Super60 compressors which is a nice size (I think). Has lower A/Rs, 0.76 trim on the compressor, and 0.88 trim on the turbine.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-SUPER-...#ht_3410wt_1167
Super60 compressors which is a nice size (I think). Has higher A/Rs, 0.76 trim on the compressor, and 0.86 trim on the turbine.

So wouldn't getting the high A/R give me room to improve once I switch to the high PSI setup and only give me boost when I really get into it?
And would the low A/R hinder me when I switch to the high PSI setup but give me more power at more common RPMs?
Which would you guys reccommend because I REALLY need to buy one.

I think you are being too hasty in your decision.
One turbo is not going to do a low boost setup and later a high boost setup (very well).
Settle down and lets do this logically. I will try and get measurements from the 250 turbo engine Turbo. Maybe on Sunday. Tom

well I'm working on my endgame plan of high boost so which would work well on high boost? (15-20psi)

It it was me, I'd get the intake & carb, exhaust manifold, your ignition upgraded, the upgraded valvesprings installed, and all the linkage built and sorted out, and the drain welded in oil pan etc. You can drive it like this, then save up again and buy the turbo/wastegate/intercooler last. That will also give you some time to spend on http://www.theturboforums.com to soak up some more knowledge. No one on here knows everything, we just have different pieces of the puzzle you have to put together yourself. Except for me, that is. I know everything.

Yeah! That is one confident guy.

I agree, build it as a N/A motor and grow into it. Tom

My thoughts are,dont waste your time & money on a normally aspirated set-up.
You are not going to get anywhere near the results you want going normally aspirated on your stock longblock,or even a moderatly built longblock. It will not produce the HP & more importantly the torque.You are not changing your pistons,taking your head off,porting, larger valves,etc.

Adding a turbo w/low boost is easily doable,look @ Bouchers the 66 Chevy truck on the BB that the guy did @ home.
https://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=61889&fpart=1

Also, you can add these parts to your longblock & work pretty good.

Don't give up on your dream, live your dream.

I do not like the 2 choices of turbos on your last post.

Dont rush on the purchase of the turbocharger.

The Ebay low $$$ are not known for being the best & not heard of guys running high boost consistanly & last.

MBHD

I was actually planning on just putting money into the valvetrain for now (rockers, lifters, rods, cam, etc.) but I really didn't want to bring it up with you guys because you would probably get annoyed and again think I'm just being indecisive.

If I did get a turbo cam along with the upgrades to the valvetrain, could I run it N/A until I actually get the turbo stuff? Would it run any better/worse? I know that N/A cams usually have mid-high overlap and high lift but turbo cams have low overlap with high lift. Would the lack of overlap mess things up if I run it N/A?

EDIT: MBHD, I know. As I've been thinking about it more and more, I've been thinking about how I should probably save up and get a Garret or Turbonetics or some good brand turbo rather than a eBay turbo. I'll leave the cheap stuff to the less important things like the BOV or the wastegate.

Running a "turbo cam" grind in an engine without a turbo (while you gather the parts to put the turbo on) won't damage anything, but the performance will be down compared to having a cam that is optimized for what you have (i.e. naturally aspirated).

Would I build it with the turbo cam and drive it N/A till I got the rest of the parts?

If the plan was definite to turbo, then yes.

FWIW, I know quite a few people who have done that with varying makes.

That is why I was suggesting a used Buick GN or a Stock Syclone turbo.
Price range will be $150 -$250 on average for a stock good working turbo,, sure there is a risk in buying used,but the rebuild kits are cheap incase you get a turbo that needs seals. The rebuild kit for my Mitsubishi was $50.
Shop wisely (if you go this route) on forums & read there feedback ratings for there dealings w/other members on the boards.The GN turbos are just oil cooled while the Syclone & Tyhoon turbos are oil & water cooled.

The GN turbos have a 3 bolt round inlet to the turbine,not as good as a T3 mounted turbo like the Sy/Ty's have.
Note: The stock Mitsubishi turbos on Syclones can easily be upgraded.
The Syclone makes 280 HP stock,guys have run the stock turbo up to 320 HP.
On the next upgrade/bigger direct replacement Mitsu turbo ,the TD06H-20G, http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/syclone-typhoon-tech-forum/210818-turbo-sale.html

which I dynoed my stock longblock made 386 HP & 550ft lbs of torque.
I then upgrade the compressor wheel to a 60-1 wheel,estimated HP is 400+ .
What is holding back having more power is by me switching to a 14 CM turbine housing,,, but, I would need @ least a stall of 2600-2800 rpm. Holding off till later for the converter swap.
Below are pics of a stock Syclone compressor wheel & a 60-1 wheel installed in a stock/modified compressor housing.
I made the billet 3" inlet from the previous 2.75" inlet.



I also tried different CM turbine housings,here is a 14 cm, 10cm,& 8 cm,the 12cm is on my Syclone as we speak.


as you can probably tell or maybe think,,, I do actual testing on cars on the street/track not just typing on keyboards.
I have owned my Syclone since 1998 & the first turbo build I did was back in 1987 on a 1980 VW Schirroco(SP)fun project BTW & quick!

MBHD

While there are gains to be made by switching to a turbo-only cam, the stocker will work for now. Just get a set of "trw 7000 rpm springs" for sbc and swap them in, change the valve seals at the same time. I don't know what they're really called, but the old timer at the NAPA should. For someone on an extreme budget (which is both of us) Master Power makes inexpensive turbos that are pretty reliable. Chinese ebay turbos are a roll of the dice, some people get 10 minutes out of them, others have raced them successfully for multiple seasons. I think quality of install plays a large part in that.

Yup maybe something like this, http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Master-Po...eQ5fCarQ5fParts
but can't really see the specs too well. It says .50 A/R on the exhaust,, too small on that spec.


They are made in Brazil & Douglas says they are good turbos.
here is a poll http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=74174.0
Syclone V-6 dyno w/original exhaust manifolds.
Here is a modded TD06-20G turbo w/a 61 mm compressor wheel & a 14 CM turbine housing,clipped turbine wheel also.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ4zWQR8qwE

The more I look @ Precision turbos the more I want one.
http://www.precisionturbo.net/
for my inline,not the Syclone.
Ball bearing turbos help to spool up faster & could allow you to use a lower stall torque converter.



MBHD

What type of internals would I need if I were running high boost regularly (15-20psi) and what would be the limits if I did runs even more than that?

I've heard that people use the stock crank for 1000hp+ in Brazil so a machined stock crank should be fine right?
I know forged steel stuff is what I need so forged rods with ARP bolts should be what I need right?
Lastly, the only pistons I can find are cast aluminum. Do pistons need to be strong? I'm not sure if that's a stupid question but I know they aren't subjected to rapidly changing angles, just up and down motion. So would cast aluminum be ok for high performance applications?

It should be about $600 for internals so that's not that bad.

The cast pistons would be bad idea. You want forged pistons for sure. Check with Tlowe (Tom), I'm pretty sure he can supply you with a good quality forged piston.

Yeah, I expected that would be a bad idea...
Out of curiosity, how would a piston fail??

Cast pistons are very brittle. A engine that could/ would see that kind of boost will certainly experience some type of detonation. Detonation would tear cast piston ring lands off in short order.

I do have nice forged 250 and 292 pistons available on my website.

snowman4839

forged pistons are the way to go.

I would not go over .030 overbore if you do not need to.

MBHD

Why no more than .030 over?

Looking at them, they are high compression pistons. Would they be suitable for turbocharging with a 9.5+:1 compression ratio?

A low 9's compression ratio can be had with a head that has a larger than 74CC chamber. This can easily be done when relieving around the intake valve.
The turbo 250 used these exact same design pistons.

[quote=copo-rat Why no more than .030 over? [/quote]

Just to keep the bores more stable & better sealing ,less chance of cyl bore distortion.

MBHD

Instead of getting a 2.5" log manifold, can I build off of these headers? http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/pts/2309657392.html

They will work, but will be hard to fab to a turbo flange. They will also get very hot and most probably lose shape.

Well then it seems like my only choice to make a turbo setup is a log manifold or a SPA manifold... Am I right?

The easiest would be to just get the SPA manifold, period....

There are other choices, fabbing your own,having someone make one for you.

Running the Langdon cast headers & mount the turbo on the passenger side. More involved,long run of tubing to the turbo.

Just save up & get a SPA manifold from Mr Hotrod6
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/194-230-2...=item2c5be098d1

this would be my choice for you. The more simple way to go as far as mounting a tubo.


Any other Q's ask away.

MBHD

Well I know SPAs are about $600 new so what do they cost used? because my max would be about $350 or $400 if I save this summer.

And I'm planning on getting a different engine so that I can do the work in my leisure and not worry about throwing it together one weekend and throwing it back in and hoping it works... As well as the fact, I can leave the original engine low-milage and untouched internally. Anyone know where to look for a 250 in the midsouth in the low $100s? I've seen quite a few running 250s on craigslist for $100-150 but they're all around 3-4 hours away... Also since I'm planning on machine work, can I look for 194s and 230s since the 250 is just a stroked 230 and the 230 has the same bore as a 250 and I can bore the 194 to a 230 and then put a 250 crank in it? Or are there some problems with compatibility?

Lastly, not to add to all of the plan changing or anything, but since I've decided to get a project engine, this provides the opportunity for a 292... Would this just add to the confusion? Or would it be a worthwhile investment? Or is it not good to put in an a-body car? I know they have different motor mounts, I think different clutch mounts, and different fuel pump lobe placement than a 250. Is it just more trouble than it's worth? I just thought I'd throw the idea out there because I can get one for about the same price as a 250.

EDIT: and for the hell of it, what do you guys expect my horsepower limits would be with forged rods and pistons and the stock crank (which I've read is VERY strong). Because if I do end up getting all of that, could I just throw a big turbo on it, tune it, and drag it on the weekends?

350-500 HP to the wheels. can be done pretty easy w/the correct supporting parts.

So with my parts, I should pretty easily be able to keep up with my dad's 400 and his turbo 400 tranny? His stock is rated at 340hp and 440ft/lbs. But stock is also 10.25:1 comp. ratio and he's lowering that some, but he also got the heads ported and polished, headers, and a large cam. Other than that, it's pretty much stock internally. I should be getting to see it on the dyno next week so I can probably give myself a good guess how tuff building the 250 to keep up with him is going to be.

Just so we are on the same page.

What engine are you talking about?

Your built engine on the side, or adding parts to your stock engine in your car now?

Be specifc on the parts you are talking about.

I have seen people w/300 HP 350's 400 Firebirds 455's Ponchos run anywheres from 10 sec to 16 & 17 second 1/4 mile times.

All depends on there tune, set-up for racing etc.

I have seen engines do pretty good on a dyno & run like a pig once installed & taken to a track, so there are a lot of varibles.

Take your dads car to a track & see how it runs, then make that an ET for you to beat.

MBHD

Snowman,
One thing I have mentioned before. Not sure if the SPA manifold will fit into your chassis with a 250. The turbo will probably conflict with the steering shaft. There is a 292 in mine with almost the same chassis (mine is a chevy, yours is a buick) but still nearly the same chassis. My turbo is within 1/4" And has rubbed at some time because it leaves marks on the shaft. With a 250 being much shorter than a 292, this is going to put the turbo into a big conflict.

SPA with T3 on ebay, why pay more?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SPA-Turbo...sQ5fAccessories

Checkout how far out and down the turbo sits on a 250.

Maybe use an adaptor?
like post number #63300
https://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=51127&fpart=4

MBHD

Ok from now on, I will ALWAYS be talking about a 250 that I'm going to use in my 69 buick special that I want to put forged rods and pistons in, turbo on, spa manifold, offy intake, holley 390, turbo cam and valvetrain and will be using 3.23 posi or 3.42 posi rear-end and a 3 speed manual or 3 speed manual w/ overdrive. ALL MODS will be going on the other engine I'm going to get soon. I just put the four barrel on because it was a relatively easy swap and some people reported better mileage.

Where might the turbo hit? On the bottom? Is the adapter just pushing the turbo out past where it would hit the steering shaft? Would I need to make my own adapter? Is the adapter really just a spacer?

My dad is going to use a buick BB 400 with a turbo 400 and 3.42 posi.

I believe that was just an offset spacer.
I am not sure it will work or not, so ask people & see if it will fit to be sure. His spacer moves turbo up & outwards.

You could use spacers on the engine mounts to raise engine & clear the steering shaft.Not my first choice,but would work.

Install a rack & pinion steering set-up.

The 3 spd saginaw trans has poor gear ratios,,, but, if you must.
Last thing, sometimes our 6's are not the fastest as compared to those V-thingys, so putting your car on a diet is always good.

MBHD

Well by diet, I assume you mean loosing extra weight...

and I'm not keeping the saginaw 3 speed, I'm probably going to try to find a chevy 3 speed + OD. I've been looking at the A833 they used in chevy trucks in the 80s. What do you consider good gear ratios? 2.5:1,1.5:1,1:1? I'm assuming you don't like how the saginaws have a high first gear... am I right? well the A833 isn't any better then... it has a 3.09:1 first.

Yes, car could loose weight.

Any Saginaw 4 speed would have better gear spacing than your 3 spd.
A high first gear is ok, but if it's too high like more than 3.09 ,your car would most likely not boost too much in first gear, (not much of a load on the engine) especially if you install a turbine A/R of .96 or higher.

So , if you keep your 3.23's through 3.55's a first gear of 3.09 is fine.

I just like automatics when it comes to turbos's, you can brake stall them & launch w/boost, much easier than a car w/manual trannys.


MBHD

alright then. Because like I was saying in the other thread, I REALLY need that OD.

This is a question more directed at tom. I know that tom built that simple turbo setup and he mentioned that he had to mill the bottom off of the clifford to get it to fit with the SPA. Would that a problem with the offy intake?

snowman2839
The offy does clear the SPA mainifold by at least a 1/8 of a inch.And with it sitting that close you wouldn't need to worry about heating the intake.

alrighty good. Thanks for the info

Got back from the dyno with my dad yesterday to finally see the engine. It was lowered a point in compression by getting dished pistons from 10.25:1 to about 9.25:1 so he could run 87 octane. It has a 750 edel carb with the stock cast intake. Stock rotating assembly. Bored to 408. A pretty chunky cam with a lift of like .480in I think and I'm not sure of the duration or overlap.

In the end, after the dyno and all... it made 301hp and 410 ft/lbs. My dad wasn't at all happy because stock (with the 10.25:1) compression is 340hp/440hp. While it makes me somewhat giddy to know I have a chance of beating him now, it did make me sad to see those numbers after all the time, money, and effort...

After 2 more weeks, I should have enough money to buy that SPA manifold for a whopping $480. If anyone happens to have one for cheaper, I would be very interested so please PM me or something. Then I can get on turbo valvetrain, turbo, intercooler, WG, and BOV. Which will probably be what I'm going to be working for most of the summer. I'm also actively looking for a spare 250 near me to put all the mods on.

Just an FYI

Snowman,
Ok, sounds like you have a chance to win.
Your dads 408,,, was this a engine dyno or chassis dyno, what type or make?

What was actually done to his engine? Stock valves, stock heads?
Any porting done?
HP ratings from the factory back then is a bit different than what we use today.

With those numbers pending where they are taken from ,eng or rear wheels.
ET could be as high as 17.0 seconds & as low as 14's in my guestimation.

Forgot weight of car, rear gears, tires he is going to use etc,auto trans, stall on torque converter,bring us up to date on the car again.


MBHD

From reading, it looks to be a engine dyno. That dyno # is very simular to the #'s generated back when his motor was made. He should be happy, the power is nearly the same with lower compression. Although his power should be closer to 400 hp and the 400+ tq. It is relatively easy to make a engine that produces the same hp as the cubic inchs.

Snowman,
Just another warning, you really need to do your homework, not sure if the SPA manifold will be a good fit in your chassis with a 250. I think the turbo will be a conflict with your steering. My chassis is nearly the same, except mine has a 292 which is nearly 2" taller. My turbo barely clears the steering. Tom

With that said your 250 with some boost will certainly give your dad a run for the money. You will probably burn less gas with normal driving. Your engine will get more attention than his too.

Engine Dyno. The car isn't nearly ready to put the engine in. Didn't notice the make

No porting, stock rockers, I'm pretty sure the valvetrain is stock besides his big cam.
How are the HP ratings different?

He's running a turbo 400 without a transbrake (duh). All together with him in it, it'll be about 3770lbs (I'll have him by about 330lbs in the weight department because of his heavier engine and tranny). He wants to use either a 3.23 or 3.42 LSD. He wants BF T/A Radials 245/60/14s. He's going to by the stall converter after he gets the engine worked out because he wants to know the torque curve before he chooses.
Just to compare I'm going to have a 3 speed manual (still trying to find the right ratios). 3440lbs with me in it. I want a 3.23 or 3.42 limited slip too. I want a little taller tires and as wide that will fit so like 265/70/14s. Not sure about the clutch yet (or if I really need a performance one). And I'm gonna get it bored and ported and install lumps. Offy intake. Blow through the holley 390. I'm still trying to choose a turbo but I think I'm probably going to get a t3/t04e .63 A/R turbine as a starting point. They're only like $150 for a china turbo if I need to change it to a 60 series compressor turbo or something if that turbo is WAYYYY far off.

Well how do you know those old hp/tq ratings are off? I told him he just needs to raise the compression back and he'd easily be in the range he wants but he doesn't want to rip the engine back open because the people building it for him are con artists and charge like $400 just to tear the engine apart.

Well I don't really have any choice with the SPA manifold. I mean it's either that or the 2.5" log mani but that's bad for flow you guys have told me time and time again. Besides, I can always buy/make an adapter to move it like turbo nova had to do (I think it was him).

And I got to ask. WHY DOES THE 250 BURN SO MUCH GAS? I mean it's only a 4.1 and it gets like 12-14mpg (in my setup). I mean, my friend with a 430 in his 69 Buick Wildcat gets about 11-13mpg.

Engine dyno huh.

That seems pretty low. He will be lucky to run 14's LOL.

You are going to smoke that weak 408!

If your SPA put the turbo close to the stearing shaft, you can always upgrade & use a bolt in rack & pinion stearing unit, should give you more room I would think?

But,,,, do your homework.

Dont know where anyone said the stock 2.5" manifold flows bad for a turbo set-up.

Mileage,, are you running stock timing?
Is your choke partially closed?
Are you flooring it everywhere you go?

How is the compression?
Tires inflated properly?
Front end is perfect/alignment?
Carb worn out, needle worn, etc.

Best my moms stock 73 Nova got on the freeway was 16 MPG. Moving the timing around made a huge difference in power & mileage.

Run an MSD box & an adjustable timing control & play with your timing.

MBHD

Well thanks for the vote of confidence but I do feel pretty bad for him. And that was just a preliminary. He probably will do what he has to do to get like 375hp out of it.

Not to sound like an idiot but I thought all cars were rack and pinion? They have a different form of steering than rack and pinion?

Well I think it was tom that said the SPA would flow much better and it would just be all-around easier (but I may be wrong).

I'm running like 8 degrees BTDC
choke is electric and turns all the way off
I floor it like about 15% of the time so not really

Haven't tested compression
New tires and yes
Haven't aligned the front end
Freshly rebuilt Holley 390. I checked inside and they did a good job too.

What made her milage better? Finding the right advance? More toward TDC?

I'll get an MSD box they make for turbos once I get the turbo on there

Also, keep in mind that a lot of those OEM muscle car HP ratings were exaggerated to help sell cars, and his engine might not have actually made that much power originally, regardless of what the specs said. Many of the late 60's muscle cars were rated at those #'s when they were dynoed with headers, but didn't come close to that when the exhaust manifolds were installed back on them and rolled off the showroom floor. So for him to try and compare what he has now seen on the dyno probably isn't that far away from what it originally made back in the day. I think you'll surprise him for sure.

I am pretty sure the 408 should make more power.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AUTOFAB-6...sQ5fAccessories
Do you have an advance kit in your HEI?
Run as much initial timing as you can w/out getting pinging.
What is your stock timing supposed to be set @?
You have a stock untuned Holley 390 carb,there are adjustments to do to get better mileage. I recommend a professional.
But for now, you should get a wide band O2 reader (to see how rich it really is) & change your jets.

I forgot, you have which intake manifold now?
I got better mileage by advanceing the timing,more power everywhere & mileage on my moms Nova.
MBHD

I know his 408 with that cam should make more power
So how does the steering attach to that setup??
No I don't and what would it do?
Well with even my moderately advanced timing, my engine strains to start but that's what I used to run (advanced til just before it pings)
Stock for a 250 is TDC or 0 degrees (and it runs terribly at if it's set that way)
Alright. I'll try to find someone to tune it. Would it make that much difference?
I looked for a wide band O2 reader and can you reccommend one that doesn't cost like $150??

I have an offy intake with the holley 390 elec. choke

Check out 14point7.com. If your handy with a soldering iron they offer a lot of options to a wide band. You can monitor several things on one gauge. I'm going to have two in my car to monitor the siamised ports.

Getting the car properly tuned can make a huge difference.
For now, you are better off just buying a wide band reader & see what your A/F ratois are.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Innovate-...sQ5fAccessories

That way, you will be getting more aquanted w/your Holley carb & how it reacts w/jetting changes,pump squirter changes, accelerator cam changes, air bled mods etc.
MBHD

[quote=snowman4839 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AUTOFAB-6...sQ5fAccessories
I know his 408 with that cam should make more power
So how does the steering attach to that setup??
No I don't and what would it do?
Well with even my moderately advanced timing, my engine strains to start but that's what I used to run (advanced til just before it pings)
Stock for a 250 is TDC or 0 degrees (and it runs terribly at if it's set that way)
Alright. I'll try to find someone to tune it. Would it make that much difference?
I looked for a wide band O2 reader and can you reccommend one that doesn't cost like $150??

I have an offy intake with the holley 390 elec. choke [/quote]

Can you give me a link specifically to the parts you're talking about because from what I've seen, all they're kits are like $200+.

And what would I need if I simply wanted to monitor the A/F ratio? An O2 sensor and a led display?

What you linked to is only the sensor. What type of unit would I buy to hookup and display the output?

Sorry bout that. Innovate sells the gauges also.
I like the Innovate products.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/db.php
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Innovate-...sQ5fAccessories
There are others out there for less $$$

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AEM-UEGO-...sQ5fAccessories

MBHD

So do you guys think it'd be worthwhile to get a wide-ratio A/F gauge and push off getting the SPA turbo manifold for a few weeks?

I just bought a AEM UEGO on ebay. The install was so simple and I love it. It gives me accurate, immediate readout. I plan on putting a video camera on the gauge during a run, so that I can keep my eyes where they need to be. Then, replay it to see where im at. During my first run, my cruise was at an AFR of 10, I would have never guessed that without it. I can already tell how useful this tool will be.

Yes snowman,
get yourself a wideband now, it will save you gas money in the meantime & let you know right there & then on any changes you do to your carb. No more reading plugs.
w.o.t.(WIDE OPEN THROTTLE) runs, reading exactly your A/F ratio.
This is to put into your tailpipe & can be used in different vehicles.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Innovate-...sQ5fAccessories


MBHD

Much more efficient way to tune your ride.
That is why I been telling you guys for a long time to get one.
You can use a universal type like the Innovate one & use on all your vehicles w/no cat.

Well guys through an amazing turn of luck, I now have about $1500 to blow on this engine.

I know we went back and forth on this around Christmas time but will these parts get me a basic turbo setup going? Do you see any major problems with these parts? Do you have any better suggestions?

Obviously the T3 version of the SPA manifold
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SPA-Turbo...sQ5fAccessories

This is a basic t3/t04e turbo with small A/Rs. Will this get me up and running? These china turbos are cheap so I can get a different one if it's way off and not what I need.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...308562682389586

intercooler kit
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PIPING-KI...=item2c5c184d65

BOV
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TYPE-S-TU...sQ5fAccessories

4psi wastegate
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...280120195832014

are oil lines something I could get locally or would I just need to order two of these for input/output?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-T4-36-...sQ5fAccessories

Also where would I find a T or Y fitting for my oil port?



I also probably have enough for a turbo valvetrain but I'll just make sure before I buy it.

I'll probably get a AEM UEGO wideband too

Turbo is too small.
intercooler, maybe something like this to reduce pipe plumbing?(Just an example)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LARGE-FRO...sQ5fAccessories
Here is a simular intercooler I have. 31x18x4 3" I payed about $175 for it though.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Front-Mou...sQ5fAccessories

My plumbing is like this, not sure you want to go this route?





T or Y fittings, local Dorman supply auto parts store?

BOV, & wastegate,,,, you are better off to get quality units that will save your engine & not break.

Oil lines get locally.

MBHD

What about it is too small? The compressor housing? The turbine housing? The A/R ratios? Do I need a t3/60 series?

Yeah that is a better idea to get an intercooler with the inlet/outlet on the same side.

Also what type of turbo do you have on your car and what car is it in? Do you not have problems with your turbo hitting the steering shaft?

Compressor wheel is too small also the turbine wheel.

You can use the small T3/T4 hybrid Ebay turbo, but it will severly limit your power output.

I would go a minimun of a 57 MM compressor wheel.

Here is sorta of what I have.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Turboneti...sQ5fAccessories

The main problem w/the Ebay T3/T4 hybrid turbos is that they are more for smaller 4 cyl engines, hence, small turbine wheel.There going to choke your exhaust flow bigtime!

I have a Turbonetics T3/T4 Hybrid 62-1 BB stage 5 turbine wheel. .70 compressor A/R & a .83 A/R for the turbine housing, I also have a .63 turbine housing.

I bought the turbo for my Syclone but decided not to use it . So
I am just going to stick it on my Camaro.

The turbo gets real close to the steering box, not the steering shaft. Thats why my downpipe is made this way to clear the steering box.


I am going to install a rack & pinion steering set-up which will give me a lot more room & save weight.

This turbo is something closer to the specs you would need.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/OBX-T4-DI...sQ5fAccessories
or this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SUPER-T4-...sQ5fAccessories

T3 size here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Kinugawa-Turbocharge...=item415a5eff08

MBHD

so I should get a t4 spa manifold and http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SUPER-T4-...Q5fAccessories.

I think you will have more choices (w/a T4 turbo) for Ebay turbos to get the size you would need.
As I stated in previous post,seems most T3/T4 turbos on Ebay are too small & are mostly for 4 cyl engines.

Companies like Turbonetics, Garrett,Precision turbo, Exile, etc, can make you a correctly sized T3/T4 turbo, but they will cost more & will be a much better turbo.

Also, w/a T4 turbo, you can get an "on center" turbine housing to give you a little more room away from your steering shaft.
PG 22
http://turboneticsinc.com/forum/turbos/TN_2011_CAT_MED.pdf
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Turboneti...sQ5fAccessories

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GODSPEED-...sQ5fAccessories

*NOTE: The "on center" housings are not as efficient.


MBHD

I will try and get a pic of how close my turbo is to the shaft. It will rub at times. Mine is a T4 with a tangential housing on a 292. The 250 is almost 2" shorter. A on Center housing will not move the turbo up that much higher. Will try and get that pic too.

Snow,
Have you thought about just making a turbo exh manifold from weld ells?

I have been suggesting Snowman to run a "J" pipe to locate the turbo in a better location for clearance. issues.
Like Shad has done on his GMC pick-up.

I had also mentioned he could also run the exhaust pipe to the passenger side for even greater clearance & locate turbo on the pax side.
That will save him money, pretty easy to do I he does not need to spend $400 + dollars on the SPA manifold that might not fit his chassis. That will allow him to buy a better turbo, or wastgate or BOV.

https://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=62929&fpart=1

http://www.youtube.com/user/shadboucher#p/u/4/7n-ETVO3S54

MBHD

I agree with just doing the J pipe. If he is going to buy a cheap turbo. He could make a simple j pipe setup, start with a moderate turbo and later put together a kick but system when his skills get better. Tom

So are we back to getting a 2.5" log manifold and j-piping that? I don't really have any predisposition to go with any certain setup so I'm really still open for ideas.

So does a 2.5" Jpiped log manifold with http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GODSPEED-...sQ5fAccessories sound good?

Also where did you guys find carb hats?

Also where did you guys find carb hats? [/quote]

I am running a LOW profile Offenhauser one. I have an extra Spectre 4" superflow one that I will sell. For super value. You can buy a thick aluminum carb. storage top and then weld in a 2,2.5 or what ever size inlet you want. Like this:

Aluminum Carb Storage Hat

Something like these specs:
Note: they are a bit big for your needs, you can go smaller on the compressor wheel, no smaller than a 50 MM, but I like to run a larger turbine wheel as not to choke the exhuast so much.http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T4-FLANGE-COMPRESSOR-70-AR-TURBINE-68AR-TURBO-CHARGER-/280692377032?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item415a91c5c8

Little big on the compressor, but cheap$$$
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T4-TURBO-...=item3368761e7a

Nice GN upgrade http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Grand-Nat...=item43a795e563

MBHD

I didn't even notice that it was an on-center. Alright

Does anyone know of a 2.5" log mani for sale?

Also how would you guys go about building a J-pipe? Where would you guys find the bends? Is there some type of place that would have bends like that locally?

I think a 60 series is more up to his task. A T70 is quite a bit large.

There is now another 2.5" truck 3 bolt manifold in my stock. Nice shape too.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/180-U-304...sQ5fAccessories

Is it 304 or 409 that is weldable with a wire welder , even to a mild steel flange?

A turbo to look at
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T4-FLANGE...=item3f04c06150

((Also how would you guys go about building a J-pipe? Where would you guys find the bends? Is there some type of place that would have bends like that locally?[/quote] ))

Snowman, I live in Nashville just down the road. I am a value seeker and I found the best and quickest place to find good mandrel bends is summit racing. I have pretty much ordered everything in my build from them. They ship from Atlanta, really quick. I dont know if you are looking for stainless, but summit carries low priced coated steel. I think I bought a 180deg bend with one long leg to do the J-pipe. Mine is in 2". It took alot of measuring, cutting, marking, measuring, cutting, marking to line up, welding. It took a long time, but worth it. I grinded the welds down, scuffed it, and shot it with Rustoleum BBQ paint. It has held up great so far.

Snowman,

This will give you a bit extra to play around with.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/304-Stain...sQ5fAccessories
Some T4 flanges to choose from.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T4-Large-...=item20b8e64156

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T4-Divide...=item588e5fd7e3

Yeh,
I would not get an on center turbine housing, they are not as efficient as the standard type turbine housing.

60 MM would be the absolute biggest compressor wheel, for you to run on your stock engine, anything bigger would not work efficiently.

MBHD

Alright thanks guys.

Tom - what happened to your suggestion about using a .96 A/R turbo? It seems like that's what you use all the time (in your car and in those videos you've made). How would that be different from what hank is telling me to get?

I do prefer the bigger A/R. A .84-.96 , Just do not see any cheap ones on Ebay. My experience with a turbo with too small of a A/R was bad, the bigger A/R was/ is much better.

If the exh housing and / or the turbine wheel are too small, the turbo will spool great, but become a cork at higher rpms and rob lots of power. Too big and the opposite happens. Only recomending what works for me on a inline 6.

alright. Well I'll just get a cheap one to mess around with and I'll get a pricer one (maybe with those types of A/Rs) later.

I'm planning on getting a U-pipe and cutting it up to make a J-pipe. Then welding a flange onto on side for the turbo. Would you guys suggest I get the divided flange or open flange?

I'm going to buy this turbo if nobody has any objection.? Just give me your yes or no because it does end in 15 hours.

409 stainless steel can be MIG welded, even to mild steel. It is a magnetic 400 Series ferritic stainless steel, with 11% chrome and low nickel and titanium. 409 SS was introduced in the early 1960's for automotive exhaust systems.

http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_products/stainless/ferritic/409_Data_Sheet.pdf

With Winter's answer, the u bend in 409
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2-50-180-...sQ5fAccessories

The turbo you show is a 70 size compressor. I think it is too big for your stock oriented 250. A 60 size turbo would be better.

Another turbo that is about right size. The only thing bad is it is a t3, but it would still do the job.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/t3-t4-t04...=item2a1142c696

Well would it work somewhat well until I can get the headwork and forged rods and pistons? What type of drawbacks would it have? I'm only shooting for 4-6psi on this low boost setup.

Snowman,

That 70 size compressor turbo is too big for your stock engine & will not spool fast & will be inefficient for the low boost level you are only going to run.

In other words, it will run very poorly, do not buy it.

I just posted it because it was cheap & a faily large turbo.

This turbo would work perfect for your combo,. 63 A/R on the turbine housing for quick spool anything bigger will not get into boost that fast for your stock engine.
I just cannot seem to find those specs on a low dollar Ebay turbo.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Turboneti...=item25647de5d7

I would not recommend a turbo too big for your engine right now.
I only am giving my own personal experience w/turbos on a 4.3 liter engine 262 CI a littler bigger, so I know first hand that anything bigger than a .63 A/R will need @ least 2400 RPM stall to be able to boost launch & get into boost fast.

You are going to run a manual trans so the load on your engine will differ than an auto trans.

I would not want you to get a turbo that will boost up really slow, not be fun to drive, & in general an overall dog of a car to drive..

I would like you to succeed & have a daily driver that can run 13's in the 1/4 & faster w/your better purpose built combo later on down the road.

My Syclone used to run 14's when I first got it.
I have done some R&D & thinking outside the box on parts to add/bolt-on to my Syclone & runs 12.0 to this date.

I chose a different route than the norm & mainly a low dollar high labor program to get my Syclone to run decent.

The wide band tool got me closer to a decent tune in a short amount of time & is one of the best tools to tune with, that & monitoring engine knock/pinging. http://jandssafeguard.com/


MBHD

Haha I'd like to see 13 seconds too!

Well considering the fact that we've tossed several turbos back and forth and none were the right one, can you guys give me a list (Compressors, Turbines, A/Rs, trims, etc.) to search for or find one for me that's in my price range (like up to $400) please?

EDIT: I've done quite a bit of looking and I can't find anything smaller with a t4 flange than .68AR turbine and .70 compressor. Everything else is a T3 hybrid

Here's maybe a solution? I found a turbo that's a T4/GT35 turbo and it has the compressor inlet 1" smaller than the all T4 turbo but it has the same A/Rs (.68 Tur, .70 Comp). Would that help enough to negate the undesirable A/Rs?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GODSPEED-...#ht_3573wt_1042

I thin a 70 on the compressor is just going to be too big. Here is another but would rather like to see a .81 or so exh.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SUPER-T4-...sQ5fAccessories

http://www.treadstoneperformance.com/prod_imgs/installation/ul/install-1.pdf
If you will notice in the Turbonetics matrix chart, they only recommend a .81 A/R for the turbine housing. A "Q" trim turbine wheel, But look what HP they are saying what the .81 A/R is used for 1000 HP! A .96 A/R is good for 1200 HP.

I do not think Snowman is looking for a turbine housing of .81 or .96 right now that is good for 1000-1200 HP,just me thinking out loud.

The turbo he posted http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GODSPEED-...#ht_3573wt_1042

Compressor Wheel diameter: inducer 56.59, not too big.
The compressor A/R is .70, that is not the inducer size of the compressor wheel.

Tlowe,
Your your turbo : http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SUPER-T4-...sQ5fAccessories
Has the turbine spec you recommend for a stock 250 is .96 = perfect, correct? 54 MM inducer compressor wheel.


MBHD

Saw the 70 A/R for the compressor. Sorry for that.
I am done here.
Here is a post put up by me a while ago. Goodluck.
https://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=39568#Post39568

Snowman,

A T3 turbo will work absolutly perfect for you. There is nothing wrong using a T3 turbocharger.
A T4 turbocharger will work absolutly fine also.

You just need to look for a T3/T4 Hybrid that has a turbine wheel of approx 57-64 MM exducer wheel roughly 2.3-2.5" range will work for now.
The compressor wheel of 54-57 MM will work fine.

MBHD

Well guys so far I've got a turbo (GT35 T4 turbo), AEM UEGO wideband, and spectre carb hat. I've been thinking and since I have so much extra money, you guys think it'd be worth it to just buy a turbo carb and try to sell my holley 390? Or should I just go ahead and follow a blowthrough carb conversion like this?

I just looked at the prices and the sizes of the pre-made blow-through carbs and never mind. They're extremely expensive and only come in like 600cfm+ sizes.

I'm also wondering, will the vacuum secondaries work correctly since they'll be in a positive pressure when boosted? Also will this affect the power-valve?

I am thinking to use a vacuum carb it will work, but I believe a D.P. will work better.

http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=51153.0


MBHD

What is a D.P.?

Double Pumper

Correct.
Probably easier to tune a 500 CFM 2bbl Holley for blow through application.
Like Shads.

MBHD

Well if I sold my 390 and went bought a holley 500 2bbl, would having to use an adapter plate restrict anything? Also do 2 barrel have half of a four barrel (a primary and a secondary) or is it like a dual single barrel (two primaries)?

the 500 is just like half a 4b Just two butterfly opening at the same time.

Snowman,

Take a good look at my picture album. This is a Holley 2300 2bbl 350 cfm carb. I tried to document my Hanger18 mod. The 500 cfm model is the exact same, just flows 150 more cfm. You might look at a 350 cfm model, I think it will be easier to tune than the 500. Both would work. I do believe that you can get a Holley 2300 2bbl for much cheaper than a 390cfm 4bbl. I would sell it and find a 500 or 350 cfm 2bbl. Just my .02c.

https://picasaweb.google.com/shadmeier/JEDTurboHuffer

Boucher

A 500 Holley 2bbl does not flow 500 cfm, it is closer to 350 cfm. It will also support about 350 hp with just 5 psi as done on my 250.
I would suggest a 390 double pumper or a a 600 as there is little to choose from inbetween. Tom

holley used to make an economy replacement spreadbore carb to use in place of a q-jet, numbered 4360 "economaster" I think, (not to be confused with the 4165 "spreadbores"). it is a 450 cfm carb (four bbl talk)with mech. secondaries. 1-3/8 primary. 1- 7/16 secondary bores. They were not popular as they didnt get too much better economy than a stock q-jet ( same sized primary barrels) and nowhere the hp (DUH dropping down from a 750 cfm carb to a 450 cfm carb-what do you expect). But its a dandy size for a 250 six and more compact than a 390 cfm holley design. Had one on my '67 std shift p.u. with headers-it was a replacement for a 350 chevy q-jet. They do make one to replace the q-jet on a buick 238 V6- that one has some extra idle circuit work on the secondaries. Thats the one to get. I got some holley literature about it and duplicated these v6 mods to my v8 model and it turned out to be a good streetable carb on my "cold" clifford intake. its milage didnt break the bank either. I have seen some on e-bay. These are a good, yet unknown carbs for 230 to 305 inch motors. Ran that setup for 2-3 years before I tried a common 1850 (list number) 600 cfm vacuum secondary. It was ok and smooth because of the vacuum- but the 4360 was the real sleeper. Not many at swap meets anymore, they came out in the mid-seventies. These shoehorn right in between the 390 and 600 sizes.

Sounds like a possible carb for Snowman to find.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/450-CFM-M...sQ5fAccessories

450 carb DP ? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Holley-Ca...sQ5fAccessories

MBHD

Hank
that second link on the 450 is not a DP it is just a Mech. secondray carb with a transfur tube like any Vac secondary 600 holley. That is the same 450/s I run.And to used this carb with a turbo hat You need to change the bowls on it and do away with the transfur tube and put Dual feed bowls on it.And you use The metering block off a 390 carb for the rear.I have talked with Holley on this matter,That is how I know you can use the 390 metering block.

Ok, good to know.

MBHD

Well guys, I'm probably going to buy a Holley 500cfm 2bbl. It'll probably be easier for me to tune too.

Is there a certain size or brand of BOV or wastegate I need? ebay suggestions?

http://cgi.ebay.com/TURBOSMART-ULTRA-GAT...=item231128acd3

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NIB-TURBO...sQ5fAccessories


MBHD

Alrighty then. Do you guys have any suggestions on fuel pressure regulator and fuel pump? Or could you tell me what I need?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-12-803/

for low boost http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRT-M4503/

Did you get a carb?


MBHD

I worked with Ak Miller in the 70s and 80s. I did a few turbos on Chevy and Ford inlines and he liked the Ford Autolite two barrel carbs. They are easy to tune and are CHEAP. They use the Holley two barrel mounting flange and have annular boosters which help. they are easy to blow through.
I commonly used the stock fuel pump and just drilled a hole (carefully) in the pump over the diaphram and ran a boost line from the intake to the top of the pump. The boost automatically raised the fuel pressure to the carb exactly the correct amount. I ran up to 15psi like this with no problems.
My 70 Nove with a 4 speed ran 7.9's in the eighth on a hot day off the street.

@MBHD I still have that bid on that holley 500cfm 2bbl which I'm pretty sure I'll win.

Are you sure that that that fuel pump will work? Do you have any suggestions that will work on the high boost setup? I'd like to be able to buy the fuel pump and regulator and not have to worry about it ever again.

@Hodrodrobert I'll look into those autolites if I don't win the 500cfm holley 2bbl auction. So you just ran a pressurized air line into the top of the fuel pump? Wouldn't this just circulate air through your fuel line? Did that negate the need for the fuel pressure regulator?

What type of engine did your nova have?

Snowman,
goodluck on the auction.

You neeed to drill @ tap on top of the fuel pump carefully above the diaphram. Install a pipe fitting & run your boost reference line to your intake manifold.
The fuel pump has a diaphram inside of it & your reference line will send higher boost pressure to the top of the diaphram thus increasing fuel pressure.

As Hotrodrobert said, you can run up to 15 psi ,which is a fare amount of boost & way less hassle than running a noisy electronic fuel pump.

I was thinking the mechanical (stock type) fuel pump was good to only about 12 psi reliably unless you can find a higher fuel pressure mechanical pump, then you can run more boost.

IMO, running 6 psi of boost pressure is OK, they are like ho hum ,nothing that will put a big smile on your face, I have driven cars that run 5-6 psi stock, but when you crank up the boost to @ least 10 psi, then it is something you can feel the power increase.
Those cars (factory low boost turbo cars)are set-up w/a mild tune & a safe tune, really rich.

So even w/6 psi,, you still can play around w/the timing & the A/F ratios it can help a lot over a stock factory tune.

So a recap: a mechanical fuel pump will be more reliable,no real noise, & fuel pressure will be low when engine rpm is low,like @ idle, which is a good thing as to not heat up your fuel.

MBHD

So by 6psi being "ok", you aren't expecting much? I've been waiting for my first big break in performance and nothing has made much a difference (but I haven't done much either). Is the boosted stock setup going to be much different than the stock setup?

Also, should I invest the time to put the lump ports and valvetrain in now? Or should I just go ahead and throw on the turbo stuff and not worry about that stuff until I get the forged rods and pistons?

Snowman,

You will definately be glad you switched over to a boosted engine even @ the low 6 psi range, much better than just a bolt on 4 bbl intake & carb & dual exhaust w/headers, dont get me wrong, but as soon as you get up to 10 psi & more, the smile on your face will get much bigger, that's all.

When you force air into your engine, cylinder design is not as critical as a naturally aspirated engine.

So in short, you do not need to install lump ports,oversized valves, porting.

Probably just shim up your stock valve springs or install some stock 300 HP 350 SBC valve springs.

You could buy a complete worked cyl head, but plan on spending @ least $1100 for oversived valves porting, lumps installed,new springs, screw in studs etc, etc, this type of head can wait. Plan on a better head after you build a nice shortblock.

Juat as an example: And this is on the low side. http://www.12bolt.com/250292_inline_products/cylinder_heads_and_rocker_arms

MBHD

Well wouldn't it be cheaper to go a machine shop and ask them to do all of that for me then install the lumps and stuff myself?

Also, what type of HP/TQ do you guys think a blowthough 500cfm holley 2bbl will make using the off and 2.5" 3-stud log manifold @ 6psi on the stock longblock?

EDIT: I also got outbid on that ebay 500cfm holley 2bbl. What price range do those things usually go for?

EDIT 2: Also, when I weld the pipe to the mounting flange for the turbo, should I try to fab the pipe into the square shape for better flow or should I just weld the pipe straight on and using thick sheet metal to cover what's left open? the 2.5" pipe almost dirrectly fits from top to bottom and it leaves some space on the sides which I could cut and weld pieces into.

Installing lumps is not the expensive part, it's all the other work involved.
Companies sells adaptor pipes for a T4 flange to 2.5" pipe.

http://www.mandrel-bends.com/catalog/tra...o-form-665.html

http://www.bufkinengineering.com/turbo_bracket.htm

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4690582-Turbo-Support-Bracket-Brace


MBHD

There is a lot of machine work done to make one of these heads flow/ perform.
500 Holleys go from 50-150 all the time. Bought one this spring at a swapmeet for 20.00.
With the stock cam/ head expect to go from around 140-145 hp w/ 220 tq on your worn engine to 200 hp and 275-280 tq.
Do a cam and head work, then you will build much more tq.

Take your time and fab up a strong downpipe. While you are at it make a stand that bolts to engine mount to help support the weight of turbo.

Well damn. I already bought a t4 flange and I expected to have to make the t4 to 2.5". W/e, I guess I will anyway.

Do I still need that fuel pressure regulator if I do that drill and tap on the fuel pump and run the boost line to it?

You wont need a F.P. reg w/a mechanical stock type pump.

MBHD

Do you guys think it would be smarter to buy a 2 barrel plate for the offy manifold or cut the 4 barrel one I have into a hole and then bolt a 4-to-2 barrel and just bolt that ontop of the cut out plate. If I used the adapter plate, it also don't think I would need a spacer plate so that the throttle linkage doesn't hit. What do you guys think?

Maybe this guy has a adaptor for you?

http://www.t6racing.org/id3.html

MBHD

No, I know that he can make a 2bbl plate for me, but I'm thinking if I cut the 4 barrel plate into a big square and use a 2-to-4bbl adapter then it will lift the carb enough so that the throttle linkage won't hit the manifold.
Otherwise, I'd just have to get a 2bbl plate and then just buy an spacer so that the throttle linkage wouldn't hit. This choice would be more expensive.

A plate can be as thick as you need it.I have done 1&2in spacers I even did a 3inch once.But the thicker the peice is the more time it takes to make it.The more spacers you stack together the more likely you are to have a blow between the gaskets under pressure.??

So if I were to get a junkyard 250 and I wanted to rebuild it so it was like new, what would I need? Something like...

-Main bearings
-Rod bearings
-Cam bearings (maybe?)
-New gaskets (Head, valve cover, manifold, oil pan, side covers?, rear main seal?)
-Reuse the crank, rods, and pistons?
-ARP hardware? main studs rod bolts (would I need anything besides mains and rods?)

I know that's a very short list and I'm probably forgetting very obvious stuff but does that sound about right?

The deal is I have all the turbo parts ready to go but I don't want to put them on my original engine so i'm getting a junkyard 250 and putting it on there. I just want to know the engine I put the turbo stuff on is going to run correctly and not leak stuff. I know I've said this before but I want to reiterate for new readers.

Lastly, I know I've asked this before but where would the stock internals start failing? I would probably be pushing limits @ 10psi on stock internals and ARP hardware right? Is the ARP hardware one-time-use or should I go ahead and buy forged rods and/or forged pistons if I can scrounge up the money?

The rods ( stock ) are already forged.
Get your stock rods magnafluxed, side grinded/polished & then shot peened.
Get ARP bolts installed & resize the rods .

Reuse crank, get it turned it needed.

I would use King bearings http://www.kingbearings.com/
for rods & mains. Sealed power is fine on cam bearings.

Use a complete Felpro gasket kit. Use the Felpro head gasket 1025.
Stock cast piston will not tolerate much detonation @ all,that will fail first when detonated.
All other parts should be able to take 10 PSI easy even your stock cast pistons can, JUST DON'T DETONATE!

ARP rod bolts could be used more than once. Same for mains studs.
For a more performance engine,I would buy new rod bolts everytime.
Might be a good time to get some ARP head studs.

Lets see some pics of your parts, all this talk w/no pics, come-on.

MBHD

Wow I'm really sorry. I was under the impression I already shared pics... silly me :-P

How about these apples?

TURBO!!!


38mm wastegate


B.O.V.


AEM wideband


Sunpro Vacuum/Boost Gauge


Spectre Plenum


4" to 2.5" Coupler


500CFM 2bbl Holley that I just rebuilt


4 to 2 barrel adapter


Fuel Pump (Which I need instructions on how to modify)


Weldable T4 flange


I also bought some 2.5" stainless pipe and some 2.5" stainless bends that I don't have pictured. I also have a 3 stud 2.5" 292 exhaust manifold.

Are they really?? Then why would anyone upgrade to different rods if the stock is already forged? Different shapes that are stronger??
I'm hoping to do this with as little machine work as possible considering I need this done in a timely and cost-effective manor... How much and how long would the stock rods getting machined take?
Why would I need ARP bolts "installed". Wouldn't I do the "installing" during assembly?
Again how much would turning the crank cost?

That was something I was thinking about because I read in santucci's book that there are several different types of rod and main bearings but king bearings only had a small hole for the oil whereas the sealed power had a small hole and a groove for the oil to travel through on the lower half of the bearing. From a novice's standpoint, it seems like it would be better for the oil to contact in the hole as well as in the groove making Sealed Power the better product (more oil contact = better lubrication?)
I've heard that it isn't uncommon to forgo replacing cam bearings at all because they also require a special tool. Is that something I could do here or is it pretty much a necessity?

Is there a way to protect against detonation (besides keeping ignition at TDC? lol)

Well the only reason I asked is because they're like $60 a set and if I ever change rods or whatever, it seems like a waste to rebuy the bolts.

I was thinking about the ARP head studs but wouldn't that interfere with a lump kit when I install it in the future?

Thanks for the pics, but I think there a bit big?
Yes, the stock rods are forged.
Aftermarket rods will be stronger than your stock rods.

Time for rod machineing? Depends on if the shop you take it to is busy. If they are not busy,you could drop them off in the morning & they could have them done @ the end of the day.

You would install new rod bolts, then have them machined & resized in that order.

I am not too current on prices for resizing rods, approx $10 a rod? At the most $100 for a set of 6? Most likely less.

If your crank does not need to be turned, just a polish would be good $30 ,turning crank & polish $100 ?

If you chemically strip the block acid dip, you would take out your cam bearings, if they look good & you get the block cleaned w/not so harsh a chemicle they can stay in block & possibly re-use,depends on condition. Need a special tool that can cost $150-$300 to install cam bearings. Again, not too up on pricing. Just thinking off the top of my head.

You can use any of those bearings, I just recommended the KING bearings. I used TRW/Sealed Power w/no problems.

I had told you a good way to prevent detonation is to get one of these: http://www.alkycontrol.com/& one of these: http://www.jandssafeguard.com/

As far as a lump port head & head studs, you just would not use 3 of the long head studs when you switch to the lump ports.

MBHD

Here is a little info on con rods.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp931tDlHoU

MBHD

More pics of turbo please.
Try & not have them so-big, if possible.

MBHD

Those big pic's are a killer for me. I won't even look at this thread anymore. They take forever to load with a slow DSL .

snowman4839 did you install your wideband reader yet?

It would be interesting to all of us here as to what your A/F ratios are right now.

How is your car running now & what intake & carb are you using right now?

MBHD

Sorry guys, I tried to resize it but it didn't do anything. I guess tlowe will have to wait till it goes to the next page so that it won't load these pictures.

I didn't install the wideband reader because it only came with one bung and I don't intend on wasting it.

I know I'm running extremely rich right now because I can leave my car running in one spot for a minute or two and it'll make a black spot on the driveway from the exhaust.

My car is running pretty well right now, still using the Holley 390 4bbl with the offy. I'm going to put all the turbo stuff like the holley 500cfm 2bbl and the wideband and all on the turbo engine whenever it is that I get it...

Snowman,

Can you afford $3.94 for an O2 bung?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/O2-Oxygen...=item35b405ddc1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Stainless...=item5645b6aaa4
Stainless is $5.85 cents very pricey!!
Pics have been resized for a while now.

Put some smaller jets in your 390 so you dont waste /spend money on fuel, it will save in the long run, then you could buy a $3.94 cent total shipped O2 bung & get used to your wideband & get used to tuning.

MBHD

Snowman,

fuel pump mod
http://www.classicinlines.com/fuelpump.asp

http://vs57.y-block.info/fuelpump.htm

MBHD

Oh ha ha ha. I didn't even think about buying another bung for it.

Thanks for that mod. Makes sense how it works now.

WHY IS ARP HARDWARE SO EXPENSIVE?? I mean I had the rebuild priced out on summit (Main bearings, cam bearings, rod bearings, gasket kit, and ARP hardware) and the ARP hardware alone was like $200? Is it really necessary to get ARP studs? What benefit does it provide?

And if I have a running motor, would I need to replace the piston rings? I doesn't seem like I would need to unless they're damaged right?

And I've been reading up on wrist pins and it got me wondering. When I'm disassembling the engine, would I need to even separate the pistons from the rods since I'm using the stock rods and pistons? Are wrist pins something you'd need to replace? And the 250 uses pressed wrist pins right? Not "floater" pins with retainer rings? And if I ever decided to upgrade to forged pistons, would I need to take the connecting rod/piston somewhere to get the pin out or could I do it myself? And to get it in, don't you just heat the connecting rod and slide it in and oil it?

And what do you guys suggest in terms of cams/valvetrain? Do I need to get a whole new valvetrain (cam, lifters, pushrods, rockers, rocker studs, valves)? My plan was to get a whole new valvetrain with CompCams recommendation for a turbo cam. and it seems like I remember needing a new valve cover for non-stock rockers?

I got all my ARP hardware here. They were reasonably priced.
http://www.cnc-motorsports.com/

If you do not want to get new valve train, you do not necessarily need it.
If you get a new cam, you need new lifters.If you see worn/bent push rods, replace them.
Personaly, I like to install new valve train so there is less to worry about.
If you use/buy aluminum roller rocker arms,you need a larger internal valve cover.
I believe the Clifford valve cover is supposed to clear for such an issue.
I use an Offy valve cover w/gold Crane rocker arms, I have to clearance the valve cover on both ends & round off the # 1 & 12 rocker arms. I also stacked some valve cover gaskets.

Companys always suggest, to use match sets of gears drives for the camshaft.
Meaning, if you buy a new camshaft gear you would need to buy a new crank gear drive also.

Guy are making valve cover spacers now to give a bit more clearance (raise the valve cover higher) better idea than stacking gaskets B.T.W.
Example: http://www.t6racing.org/id4.html

MBHD

I was reading your build and noticed you were considering a cam. I am running this one and it seems really good. Plus, Steve at Lunati is straight up.

Custom Lunati Turbo Spec cam (212/202,270/262 adv dur, 114LSA, .465/.458 lift)

Good Luck and look forward to updates

MBHD: Why wouldn't I "necessarily" need a new valvetrain? Wouldn't it make sense to maximize the potential of a blow-through setup with a turbo cam? How much power would I lose not using a turbo cam?
So if a new valvetrain isn't "necessary", doesn't that mean the redline will be the same? Which means it won't be a high rpm motor? Which means I don't need ARP hardware?
I said ARP was expensive because head studs are like $100 for a set, main studs are like $50 and rod bolts are like $50. Could I just reuse the original hardware then?

Here's what I'm wondering. What would happen if I just rebuild the engine with new gaskets and bearings (but reuse the old piston rings if they keep good compression), put the old valvetrain back in, and just put all the turbo stuff on the basically stock engine and run it at like 10psi? What would that do? I mean the stock compression is already pretty good for a turbo engine, IIRC a turbo cam is just a slightly different stock cam with higher lift, and it already has a pretty sturdy rotating assembly and good oiling system. What type of power would that make? or would it even be worth putting together? What parts would make the most difference in performance and/or longevity?
And lastly, how weak would those pistons be to 10psi? And how are you supposed to find the right timing if any amount of pinging would destroy the pistons? I always find where it starts pining and back it off just a little to where it stops. It seems like I'd just advance it a fair amount, make sure it doesn't run lean and I'd have a pretty strong motor but I'm still all in theory, you guys have the real-world experience...

Boucher: Thanks, but now I'm rethinking even getting a cam after what MBHD said.



Last thing, I got an oiling kit a week or so ago. Cam with a feed and return line. I noticed that there are two ways you can put the feed line in. Screw it in directly to the threads in the housing, or attach a feed plate with a very small feed orifice. Which should I use?
Directly in


The plate



And with the return line, how do you connect it to the oil pan? Is it supposed to be above or below the oil line? And do you just tap a hole in the pan or what?

EDIT: also if I wanted to just make a short adapter from the 3 bolt to the t4 flange and make it fit, could I just mount the wastegate on the bottom of the exhaust manifold like on the SPA manifold but just do it on the flat part on the bottom between cylinders the 2/3 and 4/5 exhaust ports? And just drill and tap 2 screw holes and hole saw the 38mm hole for the actual exhaust to flow out of? Then just bolt the wastegate right up to it with a gasket and a generous amount of high-temp gasket sealer?

Snowman, you have already spent some good money buying nice pieces, it doesn't make since to start cutting corners before your done, especially on some of the more critical areas. You should at least put a fresh bore on your block with new rings. Trying to re-use the old rings just wouldn't even be an acceptable alternative. Is the ARP stuff a requirement....no, more a luxury and added insurance considering your build potential. That would be an area to shave a few dollars off of the budget if you had to. But don't even consider re-using the stock rings at all. Its likely you will get them mixed up and out of order and just create another issue all together, like them not re-seating. If you had just rebuilt the engine and they had just a few miles on them, then sure. Does your block have a ridge at the top of the cylinders? Chances are you have already broken several rings when you knocked the pistons out of the cylinders to start with. Just keep thinking "smart" and don't try to rush it just because you see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Snowman,,,
You seem to be switching back & forth, I do not know if you are talking about just slapping an engine together (re-ring & re-bearing an engine) slap a turbo on & see what it can do or semi building a purpose built new turbo engine? New forged pistons, reusing cast used pistons???

I would definately run a new turbo designed camshaft. Stock cam is anemic.

Since this would be a daily driver I would not make it a high RPM high HP engine for day to day driving.
I'm talking 5000-5500 tops RPM.

You can just run the stock head bolts & a good head gasket for low boost.
ARP head studs will clamp down better than stock head bolts & less likely to push out a head gasket,, but if you detonate anything can happen, even w/head studs, burn a piston, blow a head gasket, break a conecting rod,put a hole in the block etc.

Minimun needed is @ least ARP rod bolts, resize the rods, side grind/polish connecting rods, magnafluxed,& shot peened. Not in that order.

You could re-ring & bearing the engine,but I still say resize rods, new ARP rod bolts polish & shot peen rods.

Cast pistons could take 10 psi of boost pressure AS LONG AS THE ENGINE DOES NOT DETONATE!

I have said it before, you cannot always hear detonation. That is why I recommend one of these, http://www.jandssafeguard.com/
you install a knock sensor & it will retard the timing on all the cylinders or retard the timing for the cyl that is knocking.(selectable)
So just a recount, I do not know your intensions,new pistons, reuse all old parts or???

If you just want to get a cheap$$ turbo engine going (different longblock I assume?)

Minimum things to do (on the cheap $$$),,,, Re-ring & bearings. ARP rod bolts side grind/polish & shot peen rods,magnafluxed.

New turbo camshaft,new push rods, new lifters, new cam gear, new crank gear, larger 1.94" intake valve 160"exhaust valves installed,mild porting & a great valve job, new Felpro headgasket P.N.1025 IIRC?
Profile/port/grind intake port boss, make them narrow with out breaking through where the head bolts go through, (winged shape,like an airfoil) No lumps needed. The turbo is going to force your air/fuel mixture into your engine.

Get a good methanol injection system. http://www.alkycontrol.com/

I can see a low buck $$ engine like that making 300-400+ HP to the wheels, if tuned correctly.

You can get away with more pinging w/forged pistons as compared to cast pistons,, but forged pistons can easily be destroyed also if it's pinging @ high boost & you don't get out of the throttle in time.

As far as your turbo feed set-up, usually a turbo w/journal plain bearings (not ball bearings) you do not need a restricter hole.
Some ball bearing turbos like Turbonetics do not require a fixed small orifice, but Douglas said on his Y2K Turbonetics turbo he needed one on his race car because the engine was injecting oil, he also was running a dry sump system that pumped high volumes of oil also. So not so sure about that one??

Other BB turbos require a fixed orifice. I think it depends also on your oil system, stock or high volume high pressure oil system.

You could ask the Co. you bought the turbo from what they recommend.
Now for the turbo oil return/drain line, you need the return fitting in the oil pan above the level in the pan.

you want the return line angled down (from the turbo down to the pan) w/no loops or kinks.
You want it to be a good sized tube or hose for the return.

Examples: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http...9QEwAw&dur=2346
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=turbo+oil...38&tx=110&ty=62
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=turbo+oil...iw=1201&bih=738
Angle pipe welded: http://www.google.com/imgres?q=turbo+oil...iw=1201&bih=738


Hope this helps

MBHD

Well I'm talking about doing whatever would be the most cost effective. I was asking about just using stock pistons because forged pistons are $500 and that would save me a lot of money if forged pistons were only necessary for like 600hp+. I'm just talking about taking a different engine than the one in my special, taking it apart, rebuilding it with new bearings and gaskets (and I guess pistons rings now), then using whatever new parts that would be cost effective for what I'm looking for (12ish second car with 300-400hp). So so far I need, new turbo cam and valvetrain, bearings, gaskets, machine work on the rods, new rings, resize valves. And are lump ports necessary? BTW, how much is a valve resizing and whatever other machine work I'd need?

What do you consider the head bolts to be good for? What do you mean by "low boost"? 15psi max? 25psi max? And can I use those head bolts with a lump kit or does the kit come with its own special head bolts for under the lumps? Or are lumps going to help hardly at all since it's turbo'd? I saw that lumps were $70 plus shipping on turbo6's site i think? Would it be worth it?

Last thing is that J&S system is pretty pricy for $450. Any cheaper alternatives? It seems like I would either get forged pistons to stand up to a little bit of pinging or get the J&S system to keep my stock pistons from exploding. Because I can't do both because that's $1000 in just those parts. ON TOP OF THAT... the alky injection is like $400+ from what I've seen. You consider this a low $$ engine?? I didn't expect to need ALKY til I got up to like 20PSI+

Snowman,


If you are going to stay on a low dollar theme.

Lumps are not necessary @ this point.Will they help? sure they will. The turbo is going to force the air & fuel into your engine & having a better short turn radius is not as critical as when the engine is naturally aspirated. But you need to open up the intake port windows to allow more air/fuel to get into your engine. Meaning , you need to profile/make smaller the intake bosses.
Do some bowl work & the short turn radius'. Port the exhaust port all the way through & a good valve job.

Installing oversized valves,rough estimate approx $10-15 each so that's $120-$180 bowl work/porting can vary a lot. $200 to $400 & up
It's not cheap, & you should not skimp there if you want to make some good power. Valve job, guides installed $125-$200 surface head. $40-60. It all adds up to a lot, but this is where all your power is going to be coming from, a great flowing cyl head.

If you can do some of the porting yourself & you can save some $, but you can cut/grind into water jackets if you go too far.So you would need to be carefull.

You can look @ this site to give you some ideas of costs.
http://12bolt.com/250292_inline_products/cylinder_heads_and_rocker_arms. IMO, Those prices are lower than what most shops will charge you. It's just the norm for when you want to go fast/faster, speed costs money.

W/a good head gasket & stock head bolts I can see you running 15 lbs of boost w/no problems.

What I think of low boost is about 10 psi or less.
The lump port kit should come with special head bolts.

You could buy the lumps & it will improve the power output, just not as much difference as if you were just running a naturally aspirated engine, (again, the turbocharger is forcing the air/fuel mixture into the engine,so it is not a critical.)
You need to make sure your intake port window are larger than stock in order to flow more along w/the larger 1.94" intake valves.
I would only profile your cyl intake boss & that alone will open up your intake port window & still have some high intake port velocity.

As far as the J&S goes, yes it's pricey, but it will save your engine.

Alternative, you could just buy an MSD boost timing master box.
You would set how much timing you want to take away per psi of boost pressure.
It works, just not as safe.It cannot detect knock.

It cannot sense if your engine is detonating as the J&S does when using a knock sensor.

If you keep your boost low, approx 10 psi & conservative on the timing, you would not need methanol injection. But you need an intercooler for sure.

I know all this sounds expensive, but you should see how much time & money guys put into a high power turbo set-ups,shocking

It's all the initial parts that cost money.

You could just throw your turbo onto your engine & that would be a low buck turbo install. That is what I call a low dollar turbo install.Put a turbo onto your engine that is in your car, add an intercooler & all the little odds & ends.
That's a low dollar turbo install. It will not make make that much power either.
Plan & simple speed cost money.
You want to run 12's,
You are making the engine swap choices, cam swap, etc etc etc.
It all depends on how fast do you want to go?
Speed cost money & a 6 cyl turbocharged Chevy build is not cheap.

Guys are putting junkyard Chevy LS engines into there old cars, run the stock exhaust manifolds flipped around backwards & add a turbo , intercooler etc etc etc, those builds are cheap & can make a-lot of power, they are still not doing the swaps for just $1000 dollars, you add up all the parts & guess what it still adds up to more money than you would want to spend.

So the choice is yours on what you want to do.

If you want a low dollar turbo charged inline 6.
Re-ring & bearings, ARP rod bolts, resize the rods, install a turbo camshaft & lifters.Good headgasket.That is a low dollar turbo set-up. It still costs money.


MBHD

I need to make a list of things I'll need to take to an engine shop to get estimates so correct me if this is wrong. This is a complete list of everything I might need so tell me what's necessary/recommended.

Rods: magnaflux, shot peen, resize (do you resize the bottom or the top where the wrist pin goes through or both?)
Head: Magnaflux, resize valves to 1.94" and 1.6", would I need new valve guides? Could I port/polish myself?
Block: Magnaflux, Bore .060 over, Hone?, new cam bearings. alignment hone?
Crank: Magnaflux, Turned?

that means I'd need new bearings, pistons, rings, valves, valve guides? valves seats?, and the rest of the valvetrain.

Worked on the turbo pipe a bit. Tacked it together. Not going to finish weld until I know it doesn't hit anything when in the car. I'm still going to cut up that square plate and make it look more shapely and not like I just crapped in out and drilled some holes. I couldn't take a picture of the turbo because I couldn't hold it up with one arm in the right place without risking breaking one of the tack welds but the rear end of the turbine housing sits about 2.5" away from the nearest point on the manifold.

When you are doing such a project, you really need to take off your exhaust manifold on the car & actually install your 2.5" exhaust manifold to see where everything is going to be laid out. (less cutting & re-do work IMO.)
IIRC, Tlowe said the the 2.5" manifold exhaust hole is positioned a lot more fwd as compared to the stock 250 manifold & would most likely sit directly over the crossmember/frame? Saying that (& I am only quessing you would need a really tight radiused pipe. Just quessing here because I have not seen your set-up first hand.
Not sure the thickness of your square flange (3 hole) you made? but, Might I suggest using a thicker metal flange.

I would suggest a thickness of .375" or 3/8? And it should be chamfered like the exhaust manifold is to kinda centers the donut gasket? I am thinking your plate is going to distort.
Just a suggestion.

Definately reshape the round section of tubing for the T4 flange.

When you are welding pieces together, make sure there is no extra slag/weld inside the tubing that can come loose (dislodge into the turbine wheel & distroy it) & or restrict airflow.

Looks like you are using a stick/arc welder?

BTW, just some FYI, on another forum a guy w/a supercharged Cadi STS-V 4.4 liter (bigger than your 250) switched over to a turbo set-up, he was running a .81 A/R on the turbine housing & his turbo would not get full boost until 4000+ rpm.
Guys on that forum were telling him that the turbine A/R was fine for what his combo was, I suggested to get a smaller A/R for the turbine & surprizingly the guy took my advise against all the others advise & he was happy he did, by switching to a smaller .68 A/R turbine housing(IIRC?)the boost comes in much sooner.

He also had his torque converter restalled to 3000 RPM & got reinstalled & now it stalls to 2800 RPM, it actually needs a few hundred more RPM stall to get rid of the turbolag.

If he would have stayed w/the .81 A/R turbine housing the engine would have needed approx 3600- 4000 RPM stall.

I advised him he would not like to wait for the boost to come in so late in the RPM & running a 4000 stall converter on the street would not be a happy thing to deal w/on a street car.

He is still doing more tuning but when he dynoed it made 502 HP @ the wheels @ 13 psi of boost pressure.

Just trying to reasure you about the A/R choice on your turbo, going to an A/R of .84 or bigger, you definately would not like it for a daily driver. That's all.

I would also like to add that I am not bagging on your work @ all, just want to see you succede.

BTW, is your dad helping you @ all w/this project?
Did he drag race his V-8 sled,,um I mean Buick @ a track yet LOL.

MBHD

OK, you are getting off track again...
Now you are saying you are going to buy ..060" oversized pistons & bore your block????

Second: your rods need to be side grinded/polished (grind off the forging line smooth)*(FIRST)* then magnafluxed & you only re-size the big end of the con rod after you have installed the new ARP rods bolts.

You will most likely need bronze walled valve guides installed.

Head porting:
You really need to know what you are doing when it comes to porting, & unless you can have someone show you how to do it, I would not recommend for you to take on such a labor intensive & needing great skills in order for you to do a port job, you can get into trouble very quickly & destroy a cylinder head.

If you are determined to do the porting, buy yourself a good porting book or a video that will show you how to port.

You would only do porting after a shop has used a cutter for the oversized valves (in your case a 1.94" & 1.60" sized holes)
No valve job done,, until you are done with the porting.

Crank: magnafluxed, turned down if needed, or just a quick polish job if thats all required.

You might need new cam bearings & have a shop install them.

Hope this helps.

MBHD

I wasn't trying to get off topic again... CNC-Dude said that with what I've already bought, I shouldn't cut corners now especially with block work I.E. Boring. And since I'm boring it out and I'll need new pistons anyway, how much are a set of forged pistons? Because all I saw were the ones on 12bolt from Tom and those were a bit pricey but I don't know what they should go for anyway. Also, do the pistons have to be made specifically for a 250 for whatever reason or can you just use a set of forged pistons with a bore of 3.875" (if the bore is stock)? Or do they have different wrist pin sizes? How can you tell what pistons will fit?
Like can I bore it .040" over and use these pistons? (I'm going to compare them to stock reproduction pistons) It says they're for a Jeep but they have the right size bore (if I bore it .040" over, same size rings, press fit pins, their wrist pins have a size difference of .004", but the thing that might really mess it up is that their compression distance is .287" different (the jeeps pistons being shorter). Could you shave the top of the block enough to compensate? Because if you just put those in there with that much of the cylinder left uncompressed, the compression ratio would be way too low. I also found GMC pistons where the wrist pin size is correct but the compression distance is .287 too tall rather than .287 too short like on the jeep

EDIT: SCRATCH ALL OF THAT ^^^^^ I've been doing a lot of looking and it looks like my best bet would be a set of 307 forged pistons right? The only difference is like .05" in the compression height. But those are still hard to find too!

I'm using a fluxcore mig welder. I can't afford a new welder after all this stuff but it seems to work fine to hold pipe together.

I know I probably should have waited until I got the manifold on the car to start this but I wanted a rough idea down and from the crude measurements I took, it will fit right about the frame rail and have about a 0.5"-1" of clearance. I'm going to take my manifolds on my car off for a weekend and then get the fitting all sorted out and then build the other engine with that pipe knowing that it will fit.

What was that guy running in terms of compression and fuel? It would be very impressive if he was running premium with like 9:1 with no meth injection. But if it's just race fuel then it's not street practical.

I think the bolt flange is 16 gauge steel. Where would you buy anything thicker? That's the thickest TSC or Lowes or Home Depot carry.

The T4 flange is like 1/2" thick I think and instead of reshaping the pipe, I was going to grind away at the lower part of the flangewall until I hit the pipe so it will make a smoother transition from the pipe to the turbo.

and no my dad hasn't dragged his car yet. We're still working on putting the front end together on it. We're putting in new springs, shocks, spindles, disc brakes, brake lines, master cyl and booster, proportioning valve, ball joints, idler arms, blah blah blah... on the front end so that it can handle the heavier block (350SB to 400BB) and because it needs it. But his engine and transmission (Buick 400 v8 and Turbo 400 with shift kit) are waiting to go in. I told you it made 300hp, 410ft/lbs @ the crank a while back.

So...
Rods: Resize with ARP bolts installed then Magnaflux
Head: Magnaflux then new valve guides, basic porting job, resize valves, valve job.
Crank: Polish, turn (if needed), then magnaflux
Block: Cam bearings (How do I know if I need them?) and is that a no on the alignment hone?

Does anyone know a Rick C. on this board? I got an email from him saying he posted on one of my threads but I couldn't find any new comments that lead me to believe it was him.

Snowman,
tell this Co, what size round plate you need , they will make one & ship it to you.
Here: 3/8
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-8-375-STEEL-PL...=item4aa7f264ea
.250:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-4-250-STEEL-PL...=item4aad6a51e4

You would need to buy from a metal supply CO, or Amazon.com, dont laugh, I got a piece of 6" round aluminum tubing .120 wall thickness & approx 40inches long for $23.00 shipped to my house. I thought it was a great deal.

People on Ebay sells titanium, aluminum, stainless,mild steel etc, I am sure if you search you could find a chunk of mild steel or stainless for a flange you need. That's if you cannot find a local metal supply Co.

I think the pistons that Tlowe sells will give you pretty high compression.
A custom piston is going to run approx $100 per piston last I looked.
For the pipe that attaches to the T4 flange,,,, you need to shape the pipe into the dimetions of the T4 flange.

Here are pics of polished con rod, you remove the forging line on the side of the rod.
http://www.google.com/search?q=pic+of+po...&rlz=1I7GPEA_en
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http...ved=0CD4Q9QEwCw

Usually, your inline 250 block will not need to be lined honed.
To check,install your crank bearings in the block & main caps,install your crank w/oil, torque, the main caps, & if the crank spins freely, your main cap line bore is straight.

MBHD

Snowman,
I have found it best to buy tools and do things myself.

For that exhaust flange to manifold. Go to your local steel supplier. I know there has to be one. Get a piece of 3/8" flat steel and have it cut by them to the shape you want on a iron worker. With the plate. Buy a hole saw kit or just the size you need with the drive arbor. Drill it in the vice. Use a 1/2" drill and run it as slow as possible. You can even trim it with a round file.

This is the kind of stuff you will learn to do and use the skills for the rest of your life.

You really need to jig everything up on the motor in the bay. Expect to not drive your car for quite a while. Maybe jig on a spare motor and take lots of measurements.

Well the tentative plan now is to take off my manifolds one weekend, swap out the exhaust manifold with the 292 manifold. Then I can start working on getting all the turbo stuff organized and fit under the hood.

Is there any reason that once I get all of the stuff in place under the hood and welded on, that I can't just put the turbo on and run it at a low pressure? I have all the parts I need and it's not like any of them are "one time use". I'm just not sure about the fuel pump. I still need to get it turbo ready. So is all I need to do just carefully drill on the bottom of the housing under the diaphram and trap the hole so I can install a pressure fitting? Then just run a line from that fitting to my manifold vacuum?

And I did order 3/8" thick mounting plate to replace that 18ga piece I made. I also got a 3/8" thick downpipe flange. So everything on the uppipe is nice and thick now.

I try to do as much as I can myself but any type of machine work would be impractical for me to do myself.

I bought the flange I need premade out of 3/8" steel

I'm going to put he 292 manifold in hopefully this weekend and then I can start doing all of that fitting and final fabrication. I'm sure you understand that I can't take my car out of commission for more than a few days. I guess that's the burden of working on your only car.

Snowman,
just to confirm where you are planning on drilling your fuel pump.
Place a mark (where you plan on drilling) on the FP & take a pic & post it. Don't want you to drill in wrong place.

You also need to make a oil drain/return fitting on the side of your oil pan. (Oil return from turbo to oil pan.)

I forgot if have an oil feed line to the turbo?
I recently bought a remote oil filter housing & filter from my friends shop. Keeps the oil feeding the turbo nice & clean.
http://www.theboostdepot.com/index.php?p...emart&Itemid=26

I do not see why you could not run low boost w/your engine in your car now w/your turbo set-up & low I mean low low boost.
You could go 1 step cooler range (than stock) on your spark plugs. (Less chance of detonation)

What is the wastegate minimum base spring pressure you bought? 6 psi,if so,,, that's too much IMO, you need to start off really low, like 1 psi, don't want you to blow your engine first time out.
Also, for the hoses to run you wastegate & B.O.V. (blow off valve), run some nice silicone hoses, not rubber.
Also, the sense line for your FP (fuel pump) silicone hose also.

You should run premium gas & did you buy an MSD BTM?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-6462/
or
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MSD-Ignition-con...=item3cbc6ca7bb

This will increase your spark output & will retard your timing (adjustable) when going into boost. Definately a minimum must get type of item to possibly help save your engine from detonating.

Was wondering where you bought the 3/8 flanges & does it come precut w/the correct sized holes?

Hope this helps.

MBHD

Under on the side of the fuel pump under the diaphram right?

Yeah I bought a oil line kit that comes with the feed and return lines. Why would I need a second filter to the turbo if it's already filtered through the engine oil filter?

I am pretty sure it is 6psi. Why is that too much? You said the stock rebuilt engine should be able to handle 10psi? I mean I checked all the cylinder's compressions and they're all good, it doesn't burn oil, what would be different between my engine and a rebuilt stock engine?

I didn't buy an MSD box yet but it was on the agenda. Can I not just run it without much advance like 2 degrees advanced initial timing or none at all (set timing to TDC) so that it wouldn't predetonate until I get either an intercooler, MSD box, or meth/water injection?

I just searched on ebay for the flanges I need. And yes they're the correct size and fit the studs [url=http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/?cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649&item=150405543768&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT#ht_3448wt_1165[/url] is the one that fits the manifold. The other one I got is for the exhaust of the turbo for the downpipe.

Correct area to drill.
Use a drill stop as not to let the drill bit go too far in & hit the diaphram while you are drilling.

You do not need a separate filter for the turbo,it was just a suggestion.

I am saying,, for you to start off with really low boost,, if you start off w/6 psi & your timing is incorrect or your A/F ratio is way off (B.T.W.,, it will be off) or both are way off, you can destroy your cast piston engine very quickly.

I am suggesting for you to start off w/1 psi, check for detonation ,observe your A/R ratios & proceed to make adjustments as needed.

Then proceed to 2 psi, listen & check (take out spark plugs for visual insp.)

Then adjust for 3 psi, listen for detonation, check your spark plugs, run 4 psi, listen for detonation check your plugs A/F ratios.
Run 5 psi check for detonation, read your plugs. & so- on & so- on & so-on etc, etc, etc.
http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/spkplghnbook.htm#In

http://www.theultralightplace.com/sparkplugs.htm

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http...9QEwAQ&dur=3751

You need to be on top of these things to check, if you don't take this boosted engine serious,,, say bye bye to your stock rebuilt eng.

You can have your timing retarded, not run much total advance , your gas mileage will suffer greatly, throttle response will be sluggish.

If you are not going to use an intercooler, no methanol injection, no MSD boost retard box, I would not run more than 4-6 psi range on pump 91 octane fuel w/conservative timing.

This link you posted does not work.

MBHD

Snowman,

on your fuel pump there should be a vent hole for the diaphram to work properly.

It's be a while since I used a mechanical FP I forgot where the vent hole is & if the area is large to drill a larger hole, tap it & install a fitting for your boost ref. line.

Look for the vent hole & post a pic when you get a chance.
Thanks

MBHD

It does but it's up near the diaphragm and I wouldn't want to risk tearing or puncturing the diaphragm so I'm going to put it back down where I showed you earlier. Would I need to plug these holes so that the diaphragm will stay pressurized?

Snowman,

yes , you would need to plug up these holes if you are not going to use them for a boost ref. source.

MBHD

what do you suggest I use to plug them? JB Weld? Try to weld them up???

Also does it matter what size the fitting is that goes from the fuel pump to the vacuum/boost nipple on the turbo? I was just planning on using an 1/8" brass pressure fitting like the size of the oil pressure sending unit's threads are.

A few choices.

Tap the holes for a small screw. Install screws with wet sealant or JB weld.

Install small pop rivits wet w/sealant or JB weld.

Anyone else who can help, suggestions?

You can run that pipe or a piece of silicone hose.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1-8-3mm-S...=item43aa216a78

MBHD

Can you see through one hole (with light shining through he other)?

If so how far away is the diaphram from those holes?

If you have the room to drill and tap them for plugs, you probably have the room to tap one for a fitting.


If you want to put the reference line elsewhere you can cover those holes with a piece of rubber and run a larger hose clamp around the pump.

That's a good idea of clamping rubber on it. I'll probably just drill lower to be safe.

Now here's a new problem. I started to do the basic turbo setup on my current engine tonight and got the carb and manifolds off. Test fitted the pipe and I have a big problem. I don't have any way to get the uppipe to be where I need it without almost making a straight 90 degree angle out of the manifold to get it over the frame rail. My only other option besides that is running a very long tube under the frame rail. So would the 90 degree angle (can't really even be a bend) or the very long tubes be ok?

Pics would help a lot so we all can see what you are talking about.
Even a short vid on you tube or?

You can run a long tube.

Some, STS sytems have the turbo a long ways back from the engine compartment.
http://ststurbo.com/
The turbo is far away & they still make a lot of power.
here is an STS 04 GTO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izQgzlrDq20

I have suggested to run a exhaust pipe to the passenger side & place the turbo on the passenger side if you want more room.

I am not suggesting for you (snowman) to run a set-up like this, it's more complecated & costs more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnFA93_U9hY

Lots of options.

MBHD

Snowman,
Run the turbo on the hot side (exhaust) spins the turbo best, then run the pipe from the turbo to the intake however long as needed, the long length helps slow and cool the charge and makes a bigger volume of air ready for the engine to suck in when the throttle is opened.

Remember turbos don't make air move faster, they only make it more dense, more oxygen per volume.

Harry

I don't really want to run a tailpipe turbo and to have it ru. To the passenger side, I'd just have to take it to a muffler shop and have them bend the pipe which I would only really want to do if all else fails.

The problem with running the turbo almost right off of the manifold is I wouldn't have anywhere to put the wastegate.

Well this is the best I can do for now. The plan is to (using the perspective from the picture) run the pipe in a 90 degree bend out of the manifold over the frame rail then use a little pipe to move it out from under the manifold and then do another 90 degree bend so that its pointing up now and sitting to the right of the alternator. Then weld the flange on there and have the turbo sit right behind the manifolds to the left of the frame rail and to the right of the alternator. I hope that made sense.
The spacing issue is that I have about 4 inches from the lowest point of the frame rail to the outlet of the exhaust. So that'd have to be a pretty tight curve out of the manifold.

I had to turn mine really sharp. It can be done. Use as big as diameter as you can, mandrel bends. Measure and mock up is very important. I have very little clearance with mine. Probably less than 1/2". It can be really close, just as long as it does not rub with movement and vibrations.

Mine is pretty similar to yours boucher but I couldn't run mine below the frame rail.

Because I'm a boss and amazing at everything, I worked for about 4 hours today getting the manifold bolts converted to studs, getting the new manifolds put together and put on, and getting most of the uppipe put together. My buddy kept stressing to me to try that pipe I already made but I was reluctant since I knew it was too tall. So All i really needed to do was cut off a bit on the top to make it a little shorter and then it fit just fine. All I have left to do is final weld and put the flange on. I have had the flange on and the turbo positioned and it fits fine but my tack was very weak and it fell off.

Here it is tacked together.


Decent amount of clearance between it and the frame


Pic of it out of the car


I ran into a pretty big problem putting the manifolds going together. The "heat riser" (I guess it'd be called?) hit the 292 manifold in a few places on the 1st and 2nd/3rd runners.
Mainly on the 2/3 runner


But I ground it down and it seems to have sealed well


Then another problem is that the manifolds weren't flat at all. I hope they straightened out after being torqued down but the 4/5 exhaust manifold runner was too far back about 1/8"

Snowman,

I was going to say from the first pic, it looked like you have plenty of room to work with, & it seems you found a way to have enough room.

Where the heat riser section bolts to the intake manifold.
I would run a block off gasket, that exhaust manifold is going to heat up your intake manifold, real fast & at a higher temperture.

You are going to get a lot more underhood heat you will want to some how get rid of that heat.

Running a turbo gives you so much underhood heat ,you would probably want to run a hood vent or fender vents.
I do not think you will do that type of mod/s to your car, just saying.
You could send out both of your manifolds to get surfaced evenly to give you a better seal.

From the pic of your exhaust pipe, are you going to mount the T4 flange to the jagged secton?

If so, I would not mount the turbo that low, if you could move it up & a bit more forward I would think that would be a better position for your turbo..

You are doing good, keep it up!

MBHD

I probably will block off that heat riser when I put it on the other engine.

Before I jump to getting the manifolds resurfaced, I want to see if I have any vaccuum/exhaust leaks that would make that necessary.

For underhood heat could I take out one of my front high-beam headlights and run a pipe from that hole to blow on my turbo? That would almost give the effect of a cold-air intake since the cooler outside air would get sucked into the compressor too. That's the only simple way I can think to ventilate it.

Yes. The T4 flange will be welded to the end of that pipe. It looks jagged because I flattened out those sides so that it would match up to the flange.

It's not really that low. The top of the turbo is about level with the top surface of the exhaust manifold.

Snowman,

if you have an 1/8" gap, I would think it will leak.
But like you said, I guess, try it out.

Maybe you need to open up or slot the 4 holes on the intake manifold where the exhaust manifold bolts up to?
This will allow the exhaust manifold to center up flush w/the intake manifold flange.
Might need to trim/grind on your intake & or exhaust manifold where it was hitting before.

Yes, you can take out 1 high beam headlight for cooling & maybe ramair to the turbo?

The other problem is trying to let out the excessive underhood heat, that is why I suggested a hood vent or fender vents.
Example: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/70-81-CAM...=item56466275cb

Hood vents: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/68-69-Cam...=item4840ded97d

As far as turbo location, make sure you have enough room all the way around the turbo, the stock 6 cyl mounts move excessively, also, if you install a physically larger turbo, you will have room for an upgrade if you are wanting to do so later-on down the road.

Also, make sure the oil drain line from the turbo is high enough & will put the drain line @ a good angle to drain back into your oil pan.

MBHD

Just a couple of questions about vacuum/boost lines.

Does it matter what type of line I use?
What is the difference between using the manifold vacuum ports, the accessory port on the carb (which should be manifold vacuum), and the nipple on the compressor?
What should be hooked to the boost gauge?
What should be hooked to the fuel pump?

I just used rubber vacuum or windshield fluid lines. 3/16".

I have a air cleaner spacer (above the carb) that I have tapped twice. One for a boost gauge and other for boosted fuel pressure. Because its above the carb / throttle plates, so I only see boost on the gauge, no vacuum.

Well I have a sunpro vacuum/boost gauge so would I connect that to the large accessory port on the carb that links to manifold vacuum? And since the fuel pump only needs boost, I could attach that to the nipple on the turbo right?

Now your getting it.
I like the use of the vacuum gauge, great to help tune with.
Manifold for the Vac can on dist too.
Wastegate hooked to carb hat. Do you have a Blow Off Valve?

MBHD

Snowman,

pics or video on progress?


MBHD

Decent amount of work done. Cut the up pipe a little short before the t4 flange so it sits a little low and barely rubs on the upper a arm. Ordered another .5" t4 flange to put on top of the one welded onto the pipe to act as a spacer. Got the wastegate welded to where it is almost perpendicular at the bottom of the U on the up pipe which should be awesome for flow. Got the feed line ready and need to drill the hole for the drain line. Carb/intake/exhaust are all on and all good. New carb linkage I made works great. All that's left is just finishing mounting the turbo, doing the intake lines/BOV, drain line, and exhaust dump or out the back.



Don't worry the flange/wastegate don't hit the steering.

Snowman,

it sounds like you have the wastegate pipe @ a 90 degree angle off of the 2.5" feed pipe to the turbo?

Hard to tell, no good pic of the wasegate pipe.

If so, that is not good for exhaust flow, it will probably still work, but it's not ideal.

Hard to tell, do you have room to install a wastegate pipe onto the wastegate?
Do you plan on using a pipe for your wastegate & merge the wastegate pipe into your exhaust system or run a separate pipe w/a mini muffler or?

Not sure if you got an intercooler, can't remember.
If not, get one.
Do not just run a short pipe from the turbo to your carb bonnet, you really need an intercooler.
This CO. has a lot of cheap$$$ intercoolers:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/25-x12-X3...=item3a6771ce68
intercooler pipe kit: Just some examples:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2-5-BLUE-...=item336c0970c9
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/3-UNIVERS...=item5645a69727

It's looking like a fun project & more like a turboed engine, keep it going.

MBHD

MBHD, not to sound like I am in disagreement, but Why and Intercooler? I have almost the same set up as Snowman. I am running a short intake pipe directly from the turbo to the carb without an intercooler. I have read from the turboforum that intercoolers are much more useful in fuel injection systems but not as much in blow thru applications. I read that the fuel entering the system cools the charge down quite a bit.

I have put over 300 miles on my truck this week without any problems. Many WOT runs with no detonation, smoke, issues. Boosts will rise to 10psi, when I let off it creeps to 11 psi. The only thing that is barely noticeable is that it seems to run a bit peppier when first warmed up. Once the engine bay is fully heated (heat soak) it seems just a little doggish. But not enough to go changing things.

The reason I am so inquisitive is that I am considering clocking my turbo and putting a intercooler system on this winter. I want to get straight answers before I go to the effort and $$$. By adding an intercooler what would I be gaining?

Keep it up snowman. Its all worth it once you blow thru!

Boucher

Not meaning to hijack, but Boucher what size pipe did you use?

Boucher,
good question, especially when most car magazines turbo books (in the past), etc, say when you boost only to 6 or so psi, there is no reason for an intercooler.
Now comments stateing an intercooler is not needed/necessary is coming from turbo gurus of the past making these type of statements, I never listened to them or believed them. Just me I guess.

I say BS, anytime you can cool your intake charge,, DO IT!

Even @ a low boost of say 6 psi, you will be surprized just how hot the turbocharger heats up the air.

I know you can run w/out an intercooler I have done so running a Paxton supercharger running close to 10 PSI of boost w/8.5:1 compression ratio on pump gas.

I always planned to run an air to water set-up for it, just never got around to installing it.

Not sure who posts that an intercooler is not for a blow through carb set-up,? but I would say, don't listen to those people.

You state when your truck gets heat soaked it seems a little doggish, well w/an intercooler, it gets less heat soaked & for the most part will still run good even after the engine is all warmed up.

You will noticed,, especially during cold winter day or even just a cool night, when you drive during the day, your truck will run pretty good, well when you add an Air to Air intercooler & drive on a cold day or cool night, you will say to yourself, this turbo engine really runs ALOT better on a cool or cold day/night.

I will promise you, after you install an intercooler set-up, you will ask, why didnt I install this in the first place?

After you install an intercooler:

You will make more power, you will be able to advance your timing. Better mileage.

If you notice the first Grand Nation/T-Types (IIRC 1984-1985) are called hot air car, meaning, there is no intercooler.
Look @ the 86 & 87 Buick GN's & T-Types, they added an intercooler & other odds & ends (improvements) adding an intercooler allowed them to turn up the boost ,made more power & was the fastest Car GM produced those years.

Both the hot air car & intercooled cars were fuel injected.

On my Syclone running 18-19 psi 9 degree day the intake temps gets up to 120-130 degree F, that is w/a stock air to water intercooler.
I would say if the Syclone did not have an intercooler, temps would be so high @ 19 psi I would need to run race gas.
Usually w/an Air to Air intercooler your intake temps will go down during a 1/4 mile blast (dependant of size intercooler)

Nowadays w/so many cheap (money wise) China intercoolers on ebay, there is no good reason not to add an intercooler.

A decent intercooler & plumbing is how much?
Just an example: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/25-x12-X3...=item3a6771ce68

Then buy a plumbing kit: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/3-UNIVERS...=item4cf587e2d0

Together you spend: $232.00 ,years ago you would have to buy a Spearco core or simular, high priced unit, buy the end tanks get it all welded together & cost $1000.00- $1500.00 depending on core size, but you get my point, buying a intercooler years ago installing an intercooler & plumbing would be crazy high dollar ammount & most people would not get them because of costs.
Bar & plate designed intercoolers are beffy & heavier than a tube & fin design.
That is what I purchased, a bar & plate intercooler. IIRC, price was about $220.00 when I bought it.
This is the same size: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...984.m1423.l2649

But nowadays, like I said before, no reason not to run one & yes you will see an improvement.

Boucher, install an intercooler,you will be happy you did & tell us about your results.

B.T.W., never heard about how you got your black exhaust smoke during acceleration resolved.

Also, if you do not get any detonation @ 10 psi, add an intercooler & run 15 psi , & watch the smile on your face get even bigger.
Is the T5 shifting better?

Hope this helps.

MBHD

PS, I do not know if Tlowe took any turbo outlet temps (on his makeshift turbo 250 dyno test) @ only 6 psi ?, but IIRC, he did say it was very, very hot air coming out of the turbo & that was only @ 6 psi.

No did not take any intake temps. Will say this, after a run on the dyno, you could not hold your hand on the discharge line. Not that it would burn you, it was just hot enough that it could not be held. This was at 5 PSI.
A intercooler will give a huge increase in power. The cooler denser air will allow more timing because detonation factors are lowered. If remembering correct, expect a 10% increase in power If you maintain the same PSI at engine.

On the 65 ELCO, the computer can see the intake air temps. Sitting in traffic, watch the temps climb, drive it and watch them go down.
Intercoolers are cheap for the no name versions.

So if you could not hold onto the pipe @ 5 psi, I would guestimate the temp was around 190-200+ degrees?

MBHD

I used 2" on my hot side (from engine to turbo) and 2.5 downpipe (turbo to exhaust)

alright guys. Turbo is mounted. All that's left is to do the carb hat, B.O.V., move the fuel line out of the way and do the gauges and exhaust downpipe and out the back.
I want to run this car next week at the GS nationals with a bunch of other buicks there. I think it'll be fun being the only turbo six there (probably the only six there at all lol). Only problem now is the intake pipe is going to be very short so my question is can I run this without a blow off valve? I'm definately going to TRY to get the BOV on there but if all else fails, can I run it without?



rear view. There are all of those plates on top of the welded flange because I needed to move it up so it wouldn't hit the A-arm and I didn't want/need/know if I could cut the pipe and weld in a patch and have it work properly. So I bought a 2 more flanges and used them as spacers.


The wastegate


hopefully a better picture of how the wastegate is mounted.

Snowman,

run a 3" downpipe.

3" downpipe tubing. examples:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MANDREL-BEND-45-...=item5d229db7fd

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-45-180-Alumini...=item2314ebdd6c

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MANDREL-BEND-45-...=item29f4dcfeaa

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-45-180-409-Sta...=item2eb8626870

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vibrant-3-O-D-St...=item2c5b75ae8f

transition for downpipe, does not need to be stainless.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vibrant-Stainles...395680276789369

another:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Steel-2-5-3-Weld...=item5644ebc5ab

What are you going to do for your wastegate exhaust?

You do not need a BOV, right now, but it does reduce excessive pressure applied to the compressor wheel & not allow the excess pressure to go backwards through the compressor housing.

My Syclone did not have a BOV from the factory, & it ran 14 psi stock, the compressor wheel is pretty small & does not get damaged from not having a BOV.

MBHD

I did resolve the heavy bog by using a white pump cam on smallest setting, rejetting to 61 and putting a 8.5 PV in. My only regret is that I drilled my PVCR's too big from the start. I still think I could go down a jet or two.

My T5's first gear is totally non-functional, so its 2nd-5th. Taking off is a bit of a drag. I have a spare NWC T5 that I will swap this winter. As well as fixing the front seal on my rear end.

Well hopefully I can get a muffler shop to bend me an exhaust this weekend and hopefully they can bend a 1.5" pipe to meet up with my downpipe so that the wastegate will go out the back too.

Why would I need a 3" downpipe if it's a 2.5" turbine outlet?

and never mind, I found a way to pipe it so that I could put the BOV on it.

Snowman,

if you want to go decently fast, you need a large downpipe & big pipe to the back of the car. Three/3 inch" pipeing. ( Minimum 3")
Do not skimp out here & dont let the muffler shop tell you they cannot run 3" pipe. Guys have run 4" pipes on 68-69-70 Chevelles.

Running a free flowing exhaust sytem will make your engine get into boost faster as does a free flowing intake filter, the larger/longer , the better.

You need as free flowing exhaust sytem as possible, meaning, you dont go to a muffler shop & have them crush bend the tubing (that restricts flow), you run mandrel bent tubing & a free flowing muffler (straight through design)
You want minimum bends & never have 90 degree bends if possible.

Companies, make universal up & over the rear end dual exhaust systems.
The one up & over the rear end for my Syclone was made for a 70 Chevelle & just bought for one side.

Your wastegate plumbing of the pipe to the wastegate looks like a good angle.

I would not recommend you race your car @ the track so soon.
You need to do a lot of tuning first before you should even consider flooring it.

Just my two cents thrown.

It's going to blow up.


MBHD

Snowman,

when you rejoin the downpipe w/the wastegate 1.5" pipeing, be sure to enter the DP @ a shallow angle.
Example.



Notice the somewhat smooth mandrel bent tubing transitions. No sharp bends or crush bent tubing.

Also, if can rejoin the your wastegate 1.5" tubing further back into your 3" exhaust system, the better. Make sense?

You want a minimun 18"-24" downstream of the turbo downpipe flange for your wategate tubing to re-enter your downpipe.

Goodluck w/the muffler shop.



MBHD

alright. So I got the car running and I got to say. TURBOS ARE SO MUCH FUN. OMFGSDLFJAG(OHPSOFBHPOASEF. I got a very nice improvment in power. Only problem now is that the compressor shoots oil when I'm at full throttle!? What would cause that? Too much oil to the turbo? Do I need a smaller feed line? Larger feed line? It's a new turbo so I doubt it's the seals went bad? Is it just factory lube working it's way out? This isn't a good way to start off my turbo-ventures

SNOWMAN,

Before you fired up the engine w/the new turbo, do you prelube the oil feed line to the turbo (make sure you had clean oil coming out of the line w/no metal/garbage coming out of the flex hose that feeds the turbo) & did you prelube the turbo its self?
What size drain did you use to return to your oil pan?
You need to post pics of that for sure.

Lets see the pics of you exhaust system & wastegate plumbing.

How is your idle A/F ratio?

How is your A/F ratio @ wide open throttle?

Where is your timing set at?

What fuel are you using, what octane?

What carb squirter size? What color cam for the accelerator squirter?

Are you just winging this thing?

Are you hearing some knocking/detonation?

I thought you are going to save this original engine for later?

Just giving you some crap because you are not sticking to your original plans.

MBHD

I ran oil through the line back into the valve cover without the turbo attached. so yes I did. I put a good amount of oil in the turbo while it wasn't on the car just to keep it oiled. the return is a 10AN and the oil feed is a 1/8NPT. Here it is http://www.ebay.com/itm/160647617803?ssP...ht_3659wt_1396.

I don't have the A/F set up yet because I need to go the exhaust shop so I can mount in on the downpipe.

Timing is at 6 degrees advanced.

I had 87 in it but I added 2/3 of a quart of octane booster to it which (according to the can) raised it to about 95.

squirter is a 27 I think. Not sure of the cam color ATM.

I'm not "winging it". I'm just eager to get the turbo in and I could've told you guys I was going to run a low boost setup on my engine for now and build the other engine and then crank the boost up on the other one.

No detonation from what I hear.

I really could've sworn I told you guys I was running the low boost setup so I didn't mean to deviate...

BUT WHAT WOULD CAUSE THE OIL LEAK?

Need to post pics of your oil return line installed, not just a link to the kit you bought.


MBHD
You are going to need to add more vents to your valve cover, did you do that yet?

How much boost are you seeing, do you have a boost gauge to read?

The store bought octane booster does not add that much octane.
If it says it adds 5 points, that means .5 points.

Torrco accelerator stuff really works great to supress detonation.

Xylene, is approx 117 octane & can be bought @ paint stores Home depot etc.
Toluene 114 or so.
If you want to try it.
It is not good to breath or to get on your skin etc, be careful when handleing it if interested here is how to mix it.
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc/octanebooster.html

MBHD

Snow,
Show a pic of the drain line and where you routed it.
Can you hear the turbo really spooling up? Like at a super high RPM (turbo) not your engine.

Hank,
Sounds like you are in a panic, chill out, he's having fun.

Snow,
You better get a handle on a few things like air/ fuel ratios and boost or you will end up with a busted engine.

Nope, not in a panic, just get tired of the kid not listening, so when his engine blows up I dont want to hear, well MBHD told him it would be OK for him to boost his cast piston engine when most everbody else here told him not to.

Snowman, did you hook up your boost ref line to your fuel pump?

Enjoy!

MBHD

Even if that happened, still not your fault.

Just something to add while your injesting oil.

When your engine is injesting oil like it is, this will effectivly lower your octane rating & could cause your engine to detonate.
So Snowman, how is the power?
Does it feel faster than the 4bbl set-up you ran?

Don't get me wrong. I am excited for you Snowman.

MBHD

I think I found the culprit in the pictures. Probably the slight kink coming out of the turbo. Would that cause the oil to back up and then sqeeze itself out of the seals into the compressor housing?




Ok. Where have I not listened? The way I figure it now. I'm running it very rich and with hardly any timing. Aren't those the only 2 things that would cause detonation? That's why I figure it's safe to mess around with the stuff for now. I'm sorry that I'm excited that I get to use the parts that have been sitting in my room for 6 months and what we've been talking about doing for like a year. Yes, I'm a teenager, I might get a little overzealous sometimes. I'm a big boy. I won't go blaming it on you if anything goes wrong. I have the final say in what happens so who else is there to blame?

Yes I hear the turbo spooling pretty well. Why?

Why would I need more valve cover vents? It has a 2 decent sized ones on the stock cover?

I've looked into Xylene and Toulene but IIRC, it erodes your tank and lines quickly and I also could never find it anywhere in large quantities for better deals.

no I didn't hook up the boost line to the fuel pump yet. I wanted to see if it would be necessary since the stock fuel pump probably puts out just a hair more pressure than the low boost I'm running. But if I do notice dying after full throttle then I can conclude I'm draining my fuel bowl and that would necessitate fixing the fuel pump. But if it works like it is, why mess with it? I know I'll need to fix it when I put the stuff on the other engine.

EDIT to respond to MBHD: even if it is effectively lowering my octane, I'm still running rich and without much timing. It feels like my 4 barrel setup up through 2000rpm, then it substantially gets a lot more power and then levels off at about 2800rpm. I easily spun the tires all the way through first gear whereas with my fourbarrel, it would catch about halfway through because it couldn't power it through.

Hard to tell from the oil return line pics, but if the line/hose drops down lower than where your fittting is in the oil pan, then that is incorrect.

You cannot have any kinks in the oil return hose.

"if the fuel pump works why mess w/it"

You must think I post things here on the forum for no reason.

Yes you need a boost ref line, when you are in boost & you feel the engine cutting out/running out of fuel, that is when you are going to get detonation & when your pistons will blow.

Also, as I have always stated, you cannot always hear detonation, what kind of exhaust muffler/system are you running when driving?

Just curious as to how do you know you are running rich?

I know you are excited, that's understandable, turbos are great!

With the pump gas we get, all the alcohol in the gas dries out your hoses, let your car sit for a long time & watch the fuel eat up your rubber hoses.
A little Xylene or toluene is not going to harm it, you would not use 100% of the stuff. Sorry I suggested a cheap/better octane booster than the typical auto parts stores sells.

Torco accelerator is the best octane bought booster. A.F.A.I.K.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Best-Fuel-Additi...=item2c5a5bc2fd

The stock valve cover vents are OK for a stock naturally aspirated engine, but now, you are boosting the engine, the excess crackcase pressure has to go somewhere & where it does so is @ the front timing cover seal & @ the rear crankshaft seal = not good.

If your engine levels off @ 2800 & is comparable to the 4bbl engine, it should not be this way, sounds like you are ruuning out of fuel IMO. Not the jets size, but your fuel bowl emptying.

Your turbo engine should pull hard all the way to 4800 or so rpm w/much more authority than compared to your 4bbl set-up.

I know it's not tunned , but this is how it should feel when its all tuned.

Just be carefull, I do not suggest stuff for you to do or get for no good reason.

Goodluck
Repeat questions, how much boost are you seeing & what exhaust system/muffler are you running so you can listen for detonation?

MBHD

You really are sounding hostile. I'm not trying to piss you off. I'm just trying to have a conversation. I know I don't know everything. That's why I signed up to this forum in the first place. That's why I've put so much time into talking with you guys to understand everything. I'm sorry if I don't ask you every small question and if I sometimes just make decisions on my own. Sometimes they turn out to be the wrong decisions but I AM WILLING TO ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES. If sh*t happens, I don't need other people to make me feel worse about it. I'll already feel bad enough.

Now....

Why would it be "incorrect" to have the fitting be slightly above the lowest point in the line? Wouldn't the oil coming down from the turbo push the rest of the oil up that slight bit into the oil pan?

Since you said that, that does make sense and I understand that I need to modify the fuel pump now.

Well I don't "know" but I get a pretty strong gas smell from the exhaust when the engine is running like it's rich. And the exhaust is slightly smokey which I also am pretty sure means it's rich. Also I think 74s are pretty big jets for a 500cfm carb on a 250 with a stock cam.

Again, I don't need you to be hostile. I've told you I've looked into it but couldn't find it to be price effective. I'll give it another look next time I go to lowes or home depot.

Makes sense, what type of extra vent holes should I drill? And how would I go about drilling them?

I worded that pretty poorly... I get the old 4bbl power up until 2000rpm, then the power greatly increases until 2800rpm, then it holds that higher power level up through until I shift (and I've taken it to 3800rpm)

Snowman,
now looking closer @ your oil return hose, it is incorrect.

The hose is lower than the fitting in the oil pan.

So not only did the kink in the hose cause the oil to spew into the compressor wheel the improper routing of the hose caused the oil spewing into the compressor wheel.

Look @ the lowest part of the red anodized fitting, it is lower than the fitting you put into the oil pan.

Plus the hole you put in the side of the oil pan is too low also IMO.
You should have made the hole closer to the oil pan bolts/pan rail.


MBHD

Snowman,
I am not getting hostile & you are not pissing me off.
I know it's hard to tell how we are coming across from typing on the keyboard, so believe me , I am not mad whats so ever.

As far as the oil return hose, the oil has to return freely w/no resistance going back into the oil pan,, sorry, but that's the way it has to be.

I could really car less if you dont use Xylene or Toluene, I have used it & it does work. No hostility.

To me, this is not hostile" Sorry I suggested a cheap/better octane booster than the typical auto parts stores sells"
if that's what you are referring to? I appologize if you took it that way.

Venting the valve cover, there are different ways.
adding breathers like these:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-4211/
or: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/OFY-5408/
Or a -12 or a couple -12 fittings in the valve cover w/a hose/hoses that goes to a catch tank: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTR-23-031/?rtype=10

Or a vacuum pump system http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MOR-22640

MBHD

Here are a couple examples of return areas/ fittings.



You want the hose to free drain to pan, not have to be pressurized to drive the oil out. The oil coming out of the turbo is frothed up and becomes thick with air bubble. It does not flow well.

Get your boost gauge hooked up. You have to know what boost is there.
You have to get the fuel pump to raise pressure with boost. 1 lean time and your pistons will melt. They will spray molten aluminum out the tail pipe.

This is what is meant by vents.

I had posted links previously how to route your turbo oil drain line before, here is another link.

http://www.google.com/search?q=turbo+ret...w=1755&bih=1013

MBHD

Well I ran the turbo this morning without the compressor housing and the drain line disconnected from the turbo and I just let it drain into a bucket. So I started it up and revved it up top full boost and it leaked like it did before. Then I revved it to full boost again and it stopped leading and did not leak the 2 times I revved it again after it stopped leaking. I bought new an fittings and I'll try to run a better drain line when I get back home on tuesday. Ago I'm pretty confident it was just that drain line. I can't explain why it leaked for the first couple of revs though without any drain restriction...

Snowman,
It had to burn all the oil out of the turbine, no big deal.

Harry

What do you mean? I don't think out ever leaked into the turbine housing. It would only leak into the compressor housing at full boost.

Updates, we are all wanted to know hows it going?

Well, I will speak for myself, @ least I am .

MBHD

Like I said in post 66386, I'm going to redo the drain line and I bought two new fittings so that I can make the drain line work how it should. It should be shipped by next Tuesday or Wednesday and I get back from the trip I'm on on Tuesday late afternoon.

And again, I took off the compressor hosuing so I could find the oil leak at full boost. I saw that it seeped a little bit out at about 7o'clock on the compressor seal at full boost. Then I disconnected the kinked drain line and let it drain into a bucket. Then I revved it to full boost again about 6 times. With the oil draining into the bucket, it still seeped through the compressor side seal the first couple of times and then it stopped and didn't seep through after I revved it to full boost 4 more times. Then I had to leave on the trip right after that test. I really think it was just that kinked line which is why I ordered the new fittings but I can't explain why it still seeped out those first couple of revs without the kinked line connected and then it stopped. Any explanations?

Are you only getting fittings for the drain on the turbo itself?

Are you going to reposition the fitting in the oil pan? It is incorrect.
The return hose being kinked is one spot why it was not return to the oil pan & the other spot I previously posted was the other spot where the fitting is lower than the fitting in the oil pan.
(There are two problem areas of the turbos oil return hose)
Hard to say on the oil leak in the compressor housing leaking only on the first couple of times then stopped leaking,,, engine is out of oil? J.K.

Probably residual oil that needed to be purged out.

MBHD

No. I bought two new an fittings that are 60 degree bends instead of the two 30s that I have now. That way I can keep the line above the bottom of the oil pan where it returns to the oil pan and I can actually use an proper fitting on the turbo oil drain instead of forcing it on and hoseclamping it. I want to see if using these 2 new fittings will work adequately until I get the other engine so I can do a proper return line on that one.

OK, but you need to reposition the fitting on the oil pan, it is pointing in a downward position, it needs to be @ least mounted to the side of the oil pan.

MBHD

I understand that its not optimal to have it where it is but will it not work for now? I mean if I have the 60 degree fitting, it will keep 95% of the oil line above the oil pan. I guess i just dont understand why it'd be a problem as long as it isn't backing up inside of the line.

The way it is installed, it will be backing up the oil & will cause the oil to continiously to injest into the compressor wheel which then will injest into the engine & will effectively lower the octane rating of whatever fuel you intend to use.

So, in short,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, it will not work,,, period.

You will continiously need to replenish the oil for your engine because it will be burning it up through the combustion process.

MBHD

Well it seems like it would be the kink pushing oil into the housing and not necessarily the fitting location. Shouldn't I try to take out the kink first and see if that stops the leak before I go ahead and patch up the hole I made and redo another hole?

I agree, try getting the kink out and try it again. It never hurts to try. And you are doing it. Keep it up!

Hmmmm,,

I guess I do not make myself clear enough or you do not want to take my advise?


Yes,, you should take the kink out, that will the first part of the 2 problems you have with your oil return line.

The other problem (which will not allow the oil to drain back into the oil pan) is the fitting (in the oil pan) it is pointing down @ an angle, that part will not allow the oil to drain back into the oil pan.

You will need to patch the hole in the oil pan & make another hole in the oil pan in order to install a fitting that comes out to the side, or better yet the fitting will point up towards the turbo.

Hope this makes some sort of sense?

If you understand, knock 2 times.

Testing, testing, does this pic link work?
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http...9QEwAQ&dur=6093

MBHD

Snowman,

When you have smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe It's because the oil is getting into the turbine not the compressor, the compressor has a seal the turbine only has what looks like a piston ring and doesn't seal oil only exhaust pressure from getting into the bearing housing. As Tom said the oil after the turbo is full of air and can hardly flow so it needs a constant drop to the oil pan or it will back up and run out the turbine and burn. Also put the drain at a main bearing cap location to help shield the drain from windage.

If you have any more than a trace of oil in the compressor you have a different problem and need to check out the turbo !

Harry

I know why you are in a hurry to drive the car, boost is addictive.

Your drain also has to deal with a little crankcase pressure so as has been said the drain hose cannot be lower then the pan connection or the oil will back up in the hose. Has to all gravity drain. Keep after it, doing great. Some of us just work on this junk all the time and never get them done. I envy your progress.

Haha well thanks harry. That's what 5 hours a day for a week with 2 people most of the time gets you.

Ill post my progress when I get back and get the parts tomorrow or Wednesday.

Also what oil pressure should I have going to the turbo? I have about 38psi at idle and 50psi at higher rpm. Ill get exact numbers when I get home but those are pretty close.

Those oil pressures are normal. Getting the drain fixed will help a lot.
Are you working on the boost gauge and A/F meter? I know you are waiting on the drain parts.

Well I get back home tonight so haven't been doing anything on it for the past couple of days but yes, I'm going to get those hooked up as quickly as I can. I have to wait until I get the pipe made from the muffler shop before I do the wideband on the downpipe. The vacuum/boost gauge I can hook to the accessory port on my carb which takes manifold vacuum right?

Is it absolutely manditory that I get a 3" exhaust system? Because I have a flange drilled for a 2.5". Would it affect performance very much?

Modified the fuel pump. Does this seem about right?

Drilled hole and threaded fitting into it a bit and then jb-welded to seal. Now I run a line from the nipple on my turbo to this fitting right?


Closed other 2 breather holes on the other side with jb-weld

The 2.5" exhaust will probably work fine for the low boost setup. 3" would be better. Run what ya got. Tom

haha well when would a 2.5" straight pipe out the back be a hindrance? I mean I'd have to get pretty damn boosted for a 2.5" straight pipe to be a problem but what do I know lol.

Omfg blarg boost is amazing omfg blahhhhhhhhhhh.

So I got one of the fittings today and I got the oil drain almost worked out. It actually has an AN fitting coming out of the turbo drain but Im still waiting on getting the other so I can making the fitting going into the pan better.

So it worked well enough to take it for a drive except for a very small oil leak on the drain line. So I took it out...

Oh My GOD. I cannot describe how amazing the feeling was. So I took it out with my friend and I got up to full boost about 4 times. Every time, I did a rolling burnout. I did a rolling burnout in second gear on a 3 speed. Oh My GOD. The amount of power was amazing. I did hear some detonation the last time so I took it easy on the ride home and it turns out I was running like 12 degrees of inital timing. Wayyyyyy to much for what I'm doing. So I set it to about 4 degrees. Also I hooked up my boost gauge to see how much I was boosting. Then I took it out again. Almost all of that power was gone just from that timing change. It also turns out I'm boosting wayyyyyyyyyyyyy to much. I was peaking at 15psi at full boost and about -20psi vacuum at idle. I need to see what's up and why that's boosting so much because that's supposed to be the 6psi spring. But it was amazing while it lasted. I've taken it to full throttle with that 15psi and 14 degrees advance nearly 10 times now and I've only heard detonation once and it hasn't blown up. I almost want to get a junk motor and run 15psi and 14 degrees on 93 octane and see how long it'll last. Keep in mind I've been doing these runs with 87 octane and octane booster so probably like an actual octane of 89. I couldn't stop shaking for about 15 minutes after those runs. I'm officially addicted.

Also that new AN fitting also fixed the oil blowing into the compressor. So I got a couple of kinks to work out but I can't stop smiling

It is addicting. Be careful, that little bit of detonation you hear is REAL damaging to pistons and rings.

You have a bunch of tuning to go. Take it easy with the timing. Do you have a dial back timing light?

Tlowe,
now it really sounds like you are in a panic. Need to chill out quickly.
Let the kid have some fun.
Just relax.

MBHD

Not really, just grinning with him. It's all fun. Destroyed a few engines at his age. Learned a bunch. Wish I had people back then that could have steered me straight like he has.

With Snow seeing 15 PSI, That poor old 250 did not know it had that king of power in it.

Snow, You better get the O2 sensor hooked up.

I might add, just do one adjustment at a time. Especially on the carb. Take your time or you will chase your tail, like I did too many times.

and please, grace us with a VIDEO!

Updates.
How was the GS nationals?

MBHD

Well I ended up getting a straightpipe exhaust made all the way out the back on wednesday. It ended up being 2.5" just because that's what happened. It sounds pretty nice but it has that crappy slapping sound after you let off after 4k+. Aw well. I'm going to try to buy some 1.5" pipe (the smallest they have is 2") and get that same shop to bend me a wastegate pipe to connect to the downpipe.

I wanted to take my car to the nationals but I wanted to get the kinks out first like get the wastegate working right, get the wideband hooked up, and fix that oil drip with the new AN fitting. So we had it all on the trailer after the muffler shop but I made the call to leave her sitting pretty in the driveway.

Can't tell you how many people I told about my car though. Got quite a few suprised faces and "that's badass" comments after I told them I had a 3 speed on the column with a turbo 250 that could do rolling burnouts at 40. I even got to talk to a guy from ohio with a 1969 buick gs 400 stage 2 which was one of 2 documented. It was basically an off-the-lot drag car with 11:0 compression and forged pistons from the dealer. The original owner of THAT car called my car awesome :-)). He asked me to post pictures up on v8buick.com so that was pretty cool. But it was a great time and my dad spent 2 days just looking at grand nationals, GSXs, GNXs, T-types, and regals (plus a couple buick-powered odd balls).

I learned that I hooked up the wastegate incorrectly. It was a pretty simple oversight. I just assumed the spring was all that kept the wastegate open or closed. I didn't know that the air under diaphram was supposed to connect to the compressor nipple. That's why I was boosting to 15psi :-). I'll fix that tomorrow.

I got the other AN fitting and I should be able to fix the leak tomorrow.

And now that I have the downpipe, I can drill that hole and weld in the bung for the wideband and get that hooked up.

So things are going good :-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

EDIT: And I'll get a video out once the kinks are smoothed out.

I hooked up the AEM UEGO today and confirmed my what I suspected. It's extremely rich all throughout the rpm range. The A/F ratio bounces off of 10.0 (lowest richness that it'll display) and 10.2 even with the idle screws almost all the way in. Full throttle stays at about 10.5-12.5. I think the highest it ever got was 13.5 or so after 10 minutes of driving in all gears and rpm ranges. It did spike to like 17.0 in a floored 3rd gear pull. It never did it again though. I floored it again in 3rd and it stayed at around 13.0.

I've read I need to keep it about 13 during full throttle pull and cruise/idle as close to 14.7 as you can get with the richer side of 14.7 being safer. Does that sound about right?

Running 13.0 @ W.O.T. is too lean.

13.0 A/F ratio is not extremly rich B.T.W., it's extremly lean, especially when boosted & running 15 psi.
12.5 is lean also @ W.O.T. Thats not playing it safe.

I would tune around 11.8 @ W.O.T. @ 15 PSI of boost, (rough estimate)

If you think it is making good power @ 15 psi w/out an intercooler, wait until you install an intercooler & get the tuning correct.

Idealy, 14.7 is good for idle, but sometimes some engines do not like that A/F ratio.

14.7 A/F ratio for cruise is a good area to try & get.

Are you still running 15 psi?

When you say you are concervative w/the timing of 10 degrees initial, how much mechanical advance does the dizzy have?

Just a rough questimate w/your engine & depending on how how boost you are running,, you would want a total of 17-20 degrees total,, again, depending on boost level.

When you install an intercooler, you will be able to run more timing, & w/a methanol injection system, you can run even more timing & that will equal to A LOT more power.

With your exhaust system being really loud,, I highly doubt you can hear the detonation going on. As I always said, you cannot always hear detonation in your engine, that is why knock sensors is key to help save your engine.

When are you going to smoke your dads car?

MBHD

sorry guys. I guess I didn't mention since I got the wastegate working correctly, it's only boosting about 3psi (or 4, may gauge my be off a little). I'm planning on upping it to 6-8psi. I'm surprised that when you didn't know I changed it from 15, you weren't urging me to set it a lot lower. Do you have any confidence in a stock engine at 15psi?

Maybe I don't understand? Air/fuel ratio is parts of air per part of fuel correct? Less parts of air per part of fuel (<14.7) is rich and more parts of air per part of fuel (>14.7) is lean. So me running 12-13 parts of air per unit fuel is rich whereas more parts of air per unit of fuel would be leaner. Is that not correct?

I wouldn't say it's very loud actually. Since all the sound is at the back now (besides the wastegate for the moment), it's actually pretty decent sounding until that wastegate opens.

This is where i need quite a bit of direction. How do you measure the amount of mechanical advance and total advance? Measuring initial timing is easy enough. Disconnect the vacuum advance and just use a normal timing light?

We're still trying to rebuild his front end so we can put the drivetrain in and get it mobile. But it shouldn't be too long. Maybe another couple months? I'm hoping to run my car down memphis drag strip soon.

Sure you can run 15 PSi on a stock engine.

I did not want to say anything about you running 15 psi, (your a big boy)

I would run the suggested supporting equipment IE, intercooler, methanol injection & a J&S Safegaurd. http://www.jandssafeguard.com/
Reason being, you are running stock cast pistons, they will explode w/medium to heavy detonation.

2800 RPM, 15 psi full boost, pretty good , glad we did not get the .96 A/R as suggested from, who was that?

It's been so long since I checked how much timing a HEI dizzy can make,, but I remember it's a lot , more than what you need for total timing.

Anyone remember how much mechanical advance an HEI dizzy has?

I think he (Snowman) has an HEI dizzy?

MBHD

"Sure you can run 15 PSi on a stock engine." I can't tell if that's sarcasm. As long as I kept it rich and stayed away from detonation, could I run 15psi? I understand those other things would make it safer but is it useable for a stock engine?

Yeah I have an HEI, I posted that on the supercharger thread in my list of parts just today.

But was I wrong about the air/fuel ratio? isn't <14.7 rich? isn't 12ish pretty rich at W.O.T.?

And what would I do to fix my extreme richness at idle? Do jets affect mixture at idle?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you are suppose to tune (jet) to achieve 11-ish AFR at WOT. Then from there your can adjust your idle screws lean at idle. Also if your cruise is lean, so you are going from super lean to rich at boost, try putting a vent tube extension in. It will raise your cruise AFR. I am using a 8" one that richens up my cruise just right.

I am also running a HEI. I installed a lightweight advance kit from summit and after many combination's, the lightest springs worked the best. It allowed my rpm advance curve to ramp up quickly and max out about 20-25 degrees advance. (all-in) >> at idle 11 deg and by 1800-2000 rpm im at 25 deg. This is an estimate, I have no TACH. All measured with a dial back timing light.

Happy Boosting.

Snowman, good job.

Snowman,
it's not sarcasm. Thats is why I keep suggesting supporting items to do so.

My Syclone runs 14.7 PSI stock, w/cast pistons.
I made the intercooler more efficient, added methanol injection, a J&S safegaurd & added more timing, did I mention I run 24 PSI of boost now?
This is on a completely 100% stock longblock engine.

How many 15 PSI blasts did you do?

Also, you are not understanding how or what an intercooler & methanol injection does for an engine.
I would suggest reading up on the two.

Yes, the higher the number, the leaner the A/F ratio.

12ish is not that rich on a boosted engine, I think you are reading up on naturally aspirated engine that 12.5 is about perfect A/F ratio @ W.O.T., not so for a boosted engine.

Do some more reading on A/F ratios on turbo engines.

Snowman, Boucher just did tuning on his Holley 2BBL carb, I would suggest asking him, how he did jeting changes & mods to his carb, he did it most recently.

MBHD

Thanks boucher. Sound like I need to get a dial back timing light.

So is it not a big deal that your syclone is a whole different engine? Is a cast piston a cast piston and detonation detonation? Just seems odd to compare these 60s engines to a 90s fuel injected v6 but what do I know?

I did about 10-12 15psi blasts. about 6 of them were at 14 degrees and 4 at 6 degrees (I didn't take off my vacuum advance but that's what they read at idle). The 14 degrees was scary fast and had crazy power. The 6 degrees was a slug and I had a bunch of problems like chugging, intake backfires, and just no power.

Hopefully I'm about to sell a computer and get the money to setup an intercooler and maybe start toward a alky/water setup.

I'm pretty confident that I understand what meth and an intercooler do.
Methanol, when injected, raises octane of the charge and absorbs heat in the cylinder which allows for cooler temps.
Water when mixed with meth has the same type of heat absorption without the benefit of octane boost.
Intercooling cools off the compressed air charge because it gets hot when compressed. This gives the charge a cooler starting temperature in the cylinder.
^^^That's what I've gathered from what I've read.

Just read some and 12 is good for full boost. 13 is getting somewhat risky in case of some unknown something to make you run lean for a second.

The main difference, w/the V-6 Syclone engine is that it is fuel injected (more even fuel distribution) & has a computer & will control knocking/detonation.

Your A/F ratios cylinder to cylinder will be off.

I would not recommend you going over the boost you were already seeing.
I'll chime in later & type more.

BTW, how about some more pics of your downpipe & pipeing to the carb, bov, etc.

MBHD

If your cyl to cyl. distribution is off (which is practically any carbureted motor) you must have spark and mixture set up retarded and rich to protect the hottest, leanest chamber with the highest static CR. This kills power and mileage on the other 5.

If you are still "on the cheap" theme you probably could install or possibly mod your vacuum can on the dizzy to retard timing when in boost.

Need to read up on them.
IIRC my friend says he can mod a stock type canister to give you boost retard?

He is a Corvair expert & has access to the factory GM vacuum cans that retards the timing while in boost.

He has tried several brand new NOS ones, used ones etc, on back to back tests & the amount of timing retard is all over the place. not consistant @ all.

This way you could run more initial timing = better mileage, better turbo spool up, etc.
Something like this but for your HEI.
http://www.dalemfg.com/dale_018.htm

http://www.american-pi.com/corvair/html/turbo.html

Personally,, I would just save up for a MSD BTM.

If you are going to save up for any new mod, get a timing control devise first, intercooler set-up, methanol injection.

Are you running 92 octane now or just 87 octane?

I am wondering why you ask, (after the fact) if you can run 15 psi boost pressure on your stock engine after you had already done 12 or more WOT blasts.

You already done so,,,, not safely mind you.

I am really shocked your engine stayed together this long, w/you running 15 psi, A/F ratios being really lean, way too much total timing, running 88-89 octane (not even 92 octane) listening for detonation w/no downpipe connected to the turbo & no exhaust system.

I have to say, you are probably one of the luckyiest guys I heard of just slapping the turbo on, no wide band on (initailly), way too much timing & running cheap gas, no intercooler etc.

I am just saying, you are really lucky.

Glad you did not blow it up,, you are not done by a long shot, just take your time & tune it, tune it, tune it!

Snowman,
BTW, how about some more pics of your downpipe & pipeing to the carb, bov, etc.


MBHD

I'm probably just going to get the MSD BTM instead of doing the vacuum canister mod. Hopefully it'll be soon if scammers stop trying to buy my computer on ebay. >:-(

No. I'm running 93 now just to be safe. The first couples of times out, I ran 3/4 of a tank of 87 with a quart of octane booster. The can said it'd raise it 7 points so I guess that means it was almost 88? But I just filled a full tank of 93 and I'm already down to 3/4 of a tank after like 2 or 3 days. Please tell me that's because of how rich it is... :-(. I really need help tuning.

I don't understand why you keep saying I'm running lean. I watch my wideband like a hawk at full throttle pulls and it never gets higher than 13 most of the time. If it ever even touches 14.5 or 15 I let off. I need to change out that fuel pump which I'll do after work today. I also need to get a t-fitting so I can tap into my boost line going to my wastegate so I can run that to the fuel pump.

Since the wastegate I got didn't tell you which springs are which, I tried a different set of springs and now it boosts to 13 or 14psi *facepalm*. It actually doesn't do to bad like this though. I cant get into boost in 1st gear because I'm assuming since my rpms go up so fast, it pulls so much fuel that it drains the bowls because my A/Rs start fine at 12.5ish to 13 and then slowly lean out as the rpms rise. 2nd gear is usually fine though. It stays at 13ish until about 3000rpm until it starts leaning itself out. 3rd does the same thing as 2nd and starts leaning out about the same time.
Now I floored it in first and got to full boost and ran up the rpms(where I think it drains the bowls), shifted to second, got the boost back in and then it started cutting out/backfiring. Isn't that a sign of being too lean i.e. draining the bowl?

and I STILL CAN'T GET IT TO IDLE CORRECTLY WITHOUT CHUGGING BLACK SMOKE. I reset the float level to where it barely trickles out of the site hole. Lowering the idle below 1000rpm (850rpm) and messing with the idle mix screws still doesn't do anything?! *boucher looks at his PMs*

Also for some unexplained reason now, I have compressor surge. I didn't have it any other time and all I changed was the wastegate springs. What's up with that?

Snowman
, dont know what else to say,, when you are under full boost & your A/F ratio reads 12.5 to 13.0 range,, that is too lean.

You need to be seeing about 11.8 A/F ratio @ W.O.T (wide open throttle)

What happened to your fuel pump?

MBHD

Ohhh ok. I was getting confused because 13 is rich but you were saying I was too lean. I just now understood that I just need to be richer. Gotcha now...

Nothing is WRONG with my fuel pump but I still have the stock one on. I'm putting on the new fuel pump with the boost reference today. It was leaning it out after I was in boost for awhile so I think I'm draining the bowls.

DOH!!!!!!!

Like I said before, I am really surprized the engine has lasted this long.

I thought you had installed the pump w/the boost ref line.

Running the float bowl out of fuel & boosting pretty high, running really lean,, I would think for sure,,, KABOOM!

Anyone else concur?

MBHD

It is kind of like playing on the edge of a cliff. One slip and your done.
He has been one lucky dude if no damage has occurred.

Well I installed the fuel pump today but I can't do much until I get my carb sorted out. I set the initial timing (without vacuum advance connected) to 8 degrees and then connected the vacuum advance. No matter where I put the idle speed screw or the idle mix screws, I can't get it to go above bobbing around 10 on the A/F ratio. The best I ever got it was 12 and that's so lean that it backfired or shot up to extremely lean the second I gave it any throttle. Also when I had it at 12, it was EXTREMELY advanced. Much farther than it should've been. I also have size 73 jets. Doesn't that seems kinda big?
I sprayed all around my manifold, carb, and vacuum connections and none of them affect my idle even though it seems like I have a vacuum leak.
I've set the idle as low as I could to where it would keep its self alive and then I tried messing with the idle screws and they still didn't have any effect and the throttle plates were almost closed.
Does anyone have any ideas?

Snowman,

I would try & listen to what Boucher had done to his 2 BBL Holley.

He has recently done modding to his Holley to get the A/F ratios close to what his engine wants.

Hopefully he can post some pics here & you can see first hand on what things to do your Holley.

Turbo6 has been running blow through 2 BBL Holleys for some time now I think he would be a great source of info also.

MBHD

Well I've been PMing Boucher and he's been helping me but hopefully Turbo6 can chime in too.

I still think I just have too big primary jets because if my mix is almost right at full throttle without drilled PCVRs @14 psi, doesn't that mean that my large jets are having to compensate for stock PCVRs and therefore giving me a rich cruise and idle%Pr

What size power valve are you running and is it tailored for the amount of vacuum you have. Also, you mentioned backfiring, it doesn't take much to blow a power valve, double check that yours is the correct size and is still functional.

I pull negative 18-20 psi idle and its a 6.5" of mercury pv so I highly doubt its opening at idle. I checked it last night and it still held suction fine and the diaphram didn't look popped.

If I'm really rich at idle and really rich at cruise and close to being at the right a/f ratio under full throttle with 14psi of boost and stock size PCVRs, isn't that all indicative of too big main jets?

Lean pop will get the power valve every time at least on the older Holly's...13 this and 14 that is over my head.In the old days we did out tuneing by looking at spark plugs. I even saw "The Cat in The Hat" still doing that on a NASCAR show the other day !!! J

Mains too big, PVCR too small. Get the size from the body with number drills (the blank end!).
The idle rich may be a throttle blade angle/position thing, float slightly high, idle air too small.

Note: all the ratio numbers are not intended to pass emissions, or be chemically correct - they are to save the engine long enough that you can tune it leaner slowly for best results.
If the manifold mixture distribution is excellent the final WOT numbers will be closer to 12.2-12.5.

I would try to look at my spark plugs but I can only shut off my ignition in reverse so I can't look at the plugs because I'd have to idle it before I turn it off which would erase the sign of the the mix on the plugs.

Panic was right on the money even though I just got to reading it. My mains were definately too big, my PVCR was stock size (too small) and the idle rich was because of my mains. My float was right on and I'm thought you weren't supposed to change the idle air bleed.
But here's what I did (I said this same thing in a PM to Boucher)
"I'm almost positive that the problem was my jets now. I put the jets (51s I think?) from my other 4 barrel in the 2bbl and tried to run it. It ran like crap and I had to back out the idle mix screws for it to even idle a little bit. I checked my vacuum gauge and my mix gauge and I was at about -22psi of vacuum and it was 17-18 air/fuel ratio so it was pulling more vacuum and running wayyy lean. I'm positive that my size 73 jets were just dumping too much fuel in and overpowering the idle mix screws."
So it's very obvious that mains affect idle circuit mixture which is why I need a jet kit.

Panic,
these A/F ratios, naturally aspirated or turbocharged, or?


I do not think that Snowmans mixture distribution is excellent.
I am thinking it has to be off between all the cylinders.

There has to be some cylinders running really rich & others running really lean, correct?

MBHD

Snowman,
If your WOT mixture is correct then measure the 73 jet with a drill to get diameter, then measure the PVCR dia. figure both areas add together to get total area.
Take about a 66 jet and figure that area, subtract from total to get area to drill out PVCR, install a 2.5 power valve.
Turn in idle mix screws all the way in then out 1 to 1.5 turns. Set floats so gas drips out at idle.
Set pump shot so there is a little pressure on the diaphram.

Set total timming to about 34*, if you have 22* cent. then set initial to 12* with vac. off dist. and hose pluged. This is not too much with 15# boost. Set timming before tuning carb.

If fuel system is up to par should work.

Do not drill any air bleeds.

Harry

PS make sure the transfer slots are not exposed or drill a small hole in each blade.

Harry,

not to offend you or anything like like,, but I would think running 34 degrees of total timing & 15 psi of boost pressure, 93 octane & no intercooler is a bit much?

Yes, no?
Thanks

MBHD

I agree - without some more development, an L6 manifold is definitely going to have some distribution issues, typically #3 & 4 rich both by being closest to the entry, and also get most of the drops that fall out of suspension. For now, the hot cylinders (#1 & 6?) are the safety target.
I've seen best power as lean as 13.2 in NA motors - but those had excellent (even) water temperature, high swirl chambers, tight quench, etc.
For a turbo, as long as you trust your anti-knock system you can run closer to best power since the extra gas isn't needed for safety (or at least not as much). Cooling the chamber with gas isn't the best method, but if it works and you have nothing else it's better than losing 1 hole out the exhaust.

All of what you said sounds right on but why did you chose a 2.5" power valve? Seems really low. Or is that because you don't want all of the extra fuel coming in from the drilled PVCR coming in until you're almost at boost?

Snowman, Yes you don't need all the fuel until your in boost.

Maybe a little less timing with 93 octane, but I thought you were running octane booster.

I think a knock sensor just takes out timing and kills HP, more fuel just uses more gas. I run my A/F at 11:1

On the new cars if you run the best gas you will get more miles per gal. because the computer is not always retarding the timing.

Just my thoughts

Harry

Well I took it out again just to get a feel for what else was wrong with the carb besides rich idle and cruise. I noticed that I either had to go 1/2 to full throttle or barely give it any for it to work correctly. if I pushed it a little bit to cruise, it'd give me lean backfires. Isn't that a accelerator pump cam problem? Like I'm not getting any accelerator pump action at cruise?

From what you are describing, it sounds like a lean stumble.
Could be pump cam, or squirter size. Or if your jets are really too small.
What size squirter does it have?

Did you try a WOT blast & read the A/F ratio?

If now you are only running 4-6 psi of boost pressure as compared to 15 psi of boost pressure, is your A/F ratio richer now only @ 6 PSi of boost pressure?
Depending on your A/F ratio @ 6 PSi, you could possibly go leaner on your main jets, only if,you are seeing 11.0 or so A/F ratio now @ WOT.

MBHD

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=oil+return+turbo

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/turbo-faq.php

Just wanted to try that out.
MBHD

My squirter is a 27 or 28. There's no way my jets are too small from what I've told you guys before. <10 idle and cruise? too big of jets...
What are the different types of pump cams?

(This was all still at 15psi), Yes, all of my WOT blasts were low 13s until it lean popped where I stopped obviously.
I also did mostly 2/3 throttle blasts and that worked much better and delayed the lean pop a good bit. I only lost a little bit of power between WOT and 2/3.

I think I'm still draining my bowls and thats what's causing the lean pop (but those are also still at 15psi...)

Could I not just get an electric fuel pump? since I am planning on using 15psi anyway? What would be a good choice? What do I need to look for in terms of gph and psi? do I need a regulator with it? I don't know anything about electric fuel pumps but I've read that boost referenced mech fuel pumps only work to like 8psi.

Hmmm,,,, you were reading 13.something A/F ratio @ W.O.T.,,,, so yes it is & was still too lean @ W.O.T.
I guess I will need to reiterate myself, you need to be reading 11.8 A/F ratio or so (in the 11's) when you are running 15 PSI @ W.O.T. Low 13's (A/F ratio) is too lean!

Yes, the main jets are causing your A/F ratio @ idle is 10., but I believe there are ways to lean it out @ idle.
Your A/F ratio might be OK now w/you only running 6 psi or so.
We have not heard anything new if you had installed your new fuel pump & installed a boost ref line.
Last we heard, your going to install it, & you are only running 6 psi,, so what is the latest scenario of things that are on or off your engine, boost pressure running now? How much timing?
If you are running your new fuel pump & ref line & are running 15 psi & showing 13's A/F ratio still,,(too lean still) then you would need to go w/bigger main jets most likely, unless there are other ways to richen up your Holley for W.O.T blasts.
Turbo6 says not to drill out your idle jets,(dont drill just yet) but I believe that will lean out your idle (which you need) to a more fuel efficient A/F ratio in the 14's @ least.
Maybe turbo6 can tell you more how to mod your Holley more in detail step by step instruction?
I just know the basics & maybe a bit more, but I never blew through a Holley, just my DCOEs.
Your lean pop @ 13. A/F ratio is going to melt your pistons,,,, STOP DOING THAT!

I initially thought you could run approx 12 psi w/the stock fuel pump, but it seems going to 15 psi is OK according to other websites I have read.?? Research a bit more on that subject.

Make sure your float level is adjusted like turbo6 says, so the fuel is just dripping into the carb, meaning, your float bowl area is going to hold a bit more fuel (higher level than stock setting)
I thought Holley or another CO. made larger than stock float bowls?
I forgot, does your 2 bbl Holley have a plastic float?
If not, the brass one would have collasped by now.

With the different Holley pump cams, there are white, orange, blue, etc in color & have different ramp rates, meaning depending on cam used, it can aggressively squirt a lot more initial fuel or less.

Catch us up to date,, when you first step on the gas,, what is the A/F ratio reading approx?
Black smoke, hesitant for the engine to accelerate, almost dies?

You need to let us know all the changes you do to your engine so we are up to date on things.

Goodluck, & when tuning, try to do one thing @ a time,,, try jetting, test drive,, change timing, test drive it, don't change timing, rejet, & accelrator squirt change all @ the same time.

MBHD

I'm not arguing with you that it is too lean? I'm just tell you what it is... I'm getting the jet kit on monday or tuesday and then I can start working with that and my power valve restriction sizes (to compensate for smaller jets which will give me that extra fuel at WOT). Then I can get those right. I'm not worried about what my A/F are as of right now because it's all going to change with the new smaller jets.

I'm not sure what the last you heard was. I never said I WAS running 6psi. I said I WANTED to run 6-8 psi. But the first time I installed the wastegate, it boosted to 15. I fixed it and it boosted to 3psi. Then I changed to springs to try to make it 6-8psi and it turned out to be 14psi :-(. But that's where it was the last time I wrote.

I have the new boost reffed pump on but I cannot check what it is in boost because it's an inline gauge so it's under my hood when I'm driving (and in boost). It also gives me a lean pop at full boost so it's either draining the bowls or the jets/power valves are still too small?? If I floor it while I'm driving, it'll keep pulling all the way til it hits boost, then pull really hard when it hits max boost and holds a 13 A/F then the A/Fs fly to LEAN after being in boost for a few seconds and I get off of it or it lean pops and then I get off of it. It doesn't die though?
Partial throttle like I said was bad because it lean popped and stumbled. It was fine if I went to full throttle and back off into partial throttle which is why I'm confident its just the timing of the accelerator pump.
Idle and cruise are still rich as all get out.

I don't know what the initial timing is at idle but I know with the vacuum advance, it's like 16. I'll have to check tomorrow. I just drove it and got into full boost in third gear and just waited for it to build boost and listened and if it knocked (or if I thought it knocked) at all, I just got off, adjusted timing, and tried again. I was pretty close because it only knocked a little bit so I just kept retarding it until it stopped.

I definitely don't have the brass or stock float. I specifically bought a nitrophyl float so it wouldn't crush under boost.

I still don't know why it's draining the bowls. I really just think the pump can't keep up even with the boost ref.

EDIT: could the stumble in boost maybe be spark blowout? I have them all gapped to .030"

I would prefer to see you use a electric fuel pump and a fuel pressure regulator. You can also get the regulator with a boost reference. You are definately running out of fuel under WOT.

The cruise and idle are going to need lots of tuning. Timing does play a large part here also. While not in boost, the idle will need about 20-26 degrees to be stable. This is achieved using the set timing, mechanical timing (almost none at idle) and the vacuum can. Cruise needs the very important mech timing to kick in. At cruise, the timing could go as high as 50 degrees! Remember, there is no load. But in N/A form the engine likes to see 34-36 degrees toatal timing.

So when figuring in your timing, add these 3 things up:

Fixed timing, this is what you set(ie 8-10 degrees)

Mechanical timing, your distributor mechanical weights set this curve up. Typically 20-26 degrees.

Vacuum can, the can is used for cruise. Can add 15-20 degrees and at different vac points(levels). In your case, kicks out under boost.

Snow,
You will not believe what the fuel demand is under full boost. That stock pump will not keep up.

Be sure to see if the pump cam on the carb is ready to squirt as soon as the throttle is moved, this is adjustable. As said before different cams are available as well as squiters sizes.

Harry had mentioned something that may be pertinant here. Large carbs on a small engine. Believe me the 500 has the same size primaries as a 750 4 bbl. You may need to drill 1 small hole in each blade near the shaft to get proper idle. Ussually this occurs with a large cammed engine. This is to allow further closing of the throttle idle screw. The blades will then be below the idle transfer slot and allow proper idle mixture adjustment.

You do need to get a dial back timing light!

As far as reading what your FP is while under boost, you could hook up a hose to a gauge possibly & run it to your windshield & tape it, just to see if fp is rising above your boost pressure.
If the fp is not @ least 1 psi above boost pressure you would definatley need a better/upgraded fuel system.

Initially, you said you were only going to run 6 or so psi, hence, the use of a stock fuel pump.

I am thinking since your car is an OG (original) 6 cyl car, it probably has only a 5/16" fuel line, which is too small & should be upgraded, from the fuel pick inside the tank all the way to the front. V-8 cars usually has 3/8" fuel line, if you are going to upgrade (& I would recommend) 3/8" would be the minimum size to upgrade to.

I know, more money, more money, but if you want to go fast & doing it safely, speed is going to cost you.


Now you are running 14 psi, you probably are running out of fuel
@ this point.

This is the type of regulator I would use for a carb set-up.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AEI-13204/
I do not like using a dead head type regulator.
With that reg, it has a -8 fuel return that would need to return to your gas tank. Which keeps the fuel pump cool & less noisy.

Here ia Holley pump rated @ 16 PSI. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-12-150/ I would choose this pump for what you are doing @ this point.

But if you plan on running more boost, like 20 psi, I would look for a different pump.

Here is another Holley pump only 14 psi though.
You can shim up the spring & get a little more psi out of it.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-12-815-1/

When I was using the Paxton supercharger I ran the old Holley Blue race pump it had 18 psi. I think the spring was streched or shimmed, I got it from a friend used like this pump here.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-12-802-1/?rtype=10
Stock they put out 14 psi, but like I said, I think the spring was shimmed or streched to increase the pressure to 18 psi.
It was pretty loud. I just ran the old standard Holley FPR, dead head type,(drilled/tapped & fitting installed for boost ref line)(picture next to the pump) never really like that combo myself, but it worked & I did not have much money for a nicer pump & regulator.

Your heistation off idle, install a bigger squirter like a 31 or so. They dont cost much. Examples: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-121-131/
Different style: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-121-31/

Or, adjust pump ,bolt & nut adjustment where the spring is.
Different color pump cam or?
Just saying there are different ways to increase squirter output.


MBHD

If you were pushing 40-50 on the gap then yes you could get the blow-out but i dout that is your problem at .30.And x2 on the fuel line is to small.

Snowman, Would you repost your setup as it is now, everything even the smallest detail. And the amount of boost you want to run.

Thanks Harry

Alright then.

Ignition
GM HEI - new internals. Vac advance hooked to manifold vacuum
Old spark plug wires
New AC Delco spark plugs gapped to .030"

Air/Fuel Delivery
Offenhauser 4 barrel intake
Chevy 292 exhaust manifold (3 bolt and 2.5" exhaust)
Holley 500cfm 2bbl with size 73 jets, 6.5 power valve, and stock PCVR holes
38mm wastegate. Currently opens at 13-14 psi
custom uppipe
T4/GT35 turbo. .70A/R compressor .68A/R turbine
Spectre couplings and elbows for intake tubing.
Spectre plenum (turbo hat)
1/8 Oil feed line.
Drain line using 10AN fittings
AEM UEGO Wideband
Sunpro Boost Gauge
Stock rotating assembly, and basically stock everything else.

My end goal was to run 15psi on a built engine but the stock engine seems to take 15psi fine (IF I COULD GET IT ENOUGH FUEL! and if I don't detonate). Because I've done a bunch of WOT blasts running 13-15psi and it took it fine. I just have problems with my AF mix and fuel bowl staying full.

I'm hoping to get a electric fuel pump and regulator soon so that will fix my bowl draining problems

EDIT: and I'm going to have to take the engine out and pull the pan and weld in the return fitting (in the right place this time) because the jb weld broke and I don't want to keep having to redo it. Also for some reason, I'm getting a leak from below the turbo right where the return line meets the oil outlet. I have no idea where that came from. So looks like a have a lot of resealing to do.

2nd EDIT: actually is there any way I can get the oil pan off without taking the engine out?

3rd EDIT: if I were just looking for fuel pumps (besides the ones MBHD suggested), what would be the criteria I'd be looking for? Like GPH? PSI? fitting size? And could I not just get that holley blue and use the regulator that it comes with (or modify it?).

4th EDIT: couldn't I just get an EFI pump that produces a lot of pressure and adequate GPH and then just get a regulator that allows me to set the base pressure to 6psi (so I don't flood the carb) and have it rise 1:1? Wouldn't htat have all of my bases covered? because an EFI pump would have plenty of pressure, and the regulator would bring it down to levels usable on a carb right?
Like an example is this pump. I doubt that THIS PARTICULAR ONE has enough GPH because 23 is about the same as my mech fuel pump right now. But couldn't I link a pump like this to a fuel pressure reg and set it to 6psi with 1:1 rising pressure?

Finally got a couple of decent pictures

In reply to your 2ND EDIT:

I had the same issue. Check it:
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=395250

Looking good in the pics.
Couple comments.
To lower the turbo air intake temps, remove the air cleaner , insert a tube and move the air cleaner to the fender well behind headlights.
If you use a high pressure EFI fuel pump, the pressure reduction required will cause excessive heat in the pump and pumped fuel. Use a low pressure pump.

If possible, get a intercooler and get it plumbed in. It will make a world of difference.

You will have to pull the engine to access oil pan.
Keep up the good work. Tom

I removed my oil pan by removing the motor mount bolts (the 2 long ones) , lifting the engine as high as possible & put wooden blocks inbetween the motor mount halves, one side @ a time, I did not have a engine hoist when I did this.
Pan came right out & that is when I installed a standard volume oil pump to replace the HP HV pump.

Intercooler, methanol injection will do wonders.

MBHD

You are understanding what they can do,,, but my main point for you to get them is so you CAN run more initial timing, you CAN run 14 degrees initial or more & you CAN go a lot faster if you install these items alone, then go tune it all in & then you CAN smoke those V-8 thingys.

You stated it made crazy power & it spooled fast when running 14 degrees initial timing correct?, basically speaking you were very much impressed I believe??

Well, if you get the carb stuff sorted out, you add the intercooler it will improve you power all around, but more important, it will GREATLY reduce the chance of detonation.

Add a methanol injection kit, same thing as above,,, BUT even more so, more power, even more least likely to detonate & will make greater power everywhere in the power band.

MBHD