Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/05/13 03:20 PM

Just figured I'd pop in here and put up some of my project pictures here since they are on three other forums already, lol.

I'm looking at going distributorless from the start. Still needs some clean up work.



So I mocked it up on how I expect to route the fuel line. I'll probably use a U shaped steel tube under the thermostat housing for a tighter bend.


The injector stack. I will trim the bung that sticks into the port. The cap is from a Northstar engine and I pulled a whole length of 8 injectors and a fuel pressure regulator from teh junkyard. The local parts store has the plastic line on rolls in aisle 3.


Then went hogwild with a drill.


Then with the injector pairs mocked up.








I want to lay the injectors over more because they really don't make it to the back of the valve, but the Q-jet was limiting. So I grabbed a dusty holley off the shelf and with some hacking got some more room around the injectors. So I will try and lay these ones over some more then do likewise for the others.


This forum is finicky with me being able to post, so even if this posts, I'm not sure if/when I'll be able to follow up with it.
Posted by: limequat

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/06/13 07:13 AM


Cool project!

What ECM and triggering are you using? Love the LS style coil mounts.
Why not a traditional fuel rail?
Posted by: tlowe #1716

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/06/13 07:26 PM

I like it! Bet it will run great when done. Keep us posted on how the fuel lines terminate to the injector tops.

More pics with progress.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/07/13 07:46 AM

I tried answering yesterday but the forum software doesn't like my work or home computers....

I'm going with a MegaSquirt 3, full sequential on fuel and ignition. I have a trigger wheel I'm going to bolt to the harmonic balancer and use either a Ford VR sensor or an aftermarket hall sensor to trigger it. I'm still settling on the cam trigger, either modify the points lobes or I have a few other ideas too. This is version one of the engine, basically throw together parts I have. The next version will be turbo'd and a custom intake and probably custom headers.

I'll update this thread as the forum software allows. It has something to do with the UBBCode.

This is the error I get every time:
The host from which you are accessing the board is not recognized as a valid host. This is more than likely related to a firewall issue that is blocking the referer variable. Check your firewall settings and try again.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/07/13 07:46 AM

Hmm, I just logged out and logged back in and it posted, maybe that'll work for me from here on out.....
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/07/13 07:52 AM

 Originally Posted By: tlowe #1716
Keep us posted on how the fuel lines terminate to the injector tops.


On the Car Craft Anti-Tour last year I ran into some regulars that had a Jeep 4.0L head with EFI on their straight six in a gremlin and used the plastic fuel line from the pump to the fuel rail like a stock application. They said it was real easy to put the line in hot water, slide it on to the fitting, then done. At the parts store I see both 18" patch kits of the plastic line and 3+ feet long rolls of it. So it's readily available.
Posted by: copo-rat

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/12/13 10:34 AM

Distributorless eh?? Very cool! I have a pile of 4200 electronics/harnesses etc, and LS Cam and Crank wheels to attempt the same thing on my Chevy 250! Can't wait to see this finished. Keep us posted.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/13/13 06:54 PM

Started on proto-typing a cam sensor for the engine. I cut down the top of the distributor shaft and using some of the plexi-glass and I rough cut a cap on top of it.

How it looks. I could probably paint the cap black or something and put a Pontiac arrowhead logo on it.


I gutted the mechanical advance stuff, and with the height of the walls I think I can get a relatively cheap and modern cam sensor mounted on the side of the distributor and on the advance plate I can weld on a metal tab for the sensor to pick up.


A sensor like one of these:




Might even look at speed sensors.


Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/18/13 05:36 PM

Last night I finished up the MS3 assembly. Three nights while watching movies or tv.


Here it is with it's clothes missing.


I've finished up two of the intake ports on the injector bungs. I got greedy and tried to do the second set of ports and the JB weld wasn't cured and half way through grinding on one of the bungs it broke loose. So I have to redo the rear two ports and I left the front two alone as I just installed them today. The left one I ground down and the right is unfinished.


With the injectors installed.



And then I made things pretty. Still haven't installed any gaskets so it'll all have to come apart for final assembly.

I still need to paint the water pump pulley and the trigger wheel needs some drilling to mount it to the harmonic balancer.


Cleaned up the coils and painted the coil brackets.


Guess I've settled on the paint scheme, lol.


Painted the exhaust manifold as well.


A reminder of what the dual exhaust looks like. Two 2" outlets.




So the final question is, what color do I paint the intake manifold? Pontiac Blue? Red? Aluminum/Silver?
Posted by: tlowe #1716

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/18/13 07:38 PM

Nice work, looking good.
I'd go with red on the intake. Do you think it will be running this summer?
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/19/13 07:00 AM

If all goes well I hope to have it running in April. I was shooting for March, but that is becoming quite optimistic given the work the car needs.

I want(ed) to build an engine test stand, but may be foregoing that on time constraints.

Basically what is left in rough order:
Permanently mount the trigger wheel
Finalize the cam sensor
Run the fuel lines on the engine
Finalize Q-jet/Throttle body
Wire up the engine.
Paint the water pump pulley and alternator bracket.
Final assembly on the engine (with gaskets this time)
Pressure check my oil mod (assuming no issues at this point)

Plumb return fuel line and surge canister on car.
Set up two fuel pumps, priming and high pressure.
Clean up engine bay wiring.
Install engine.
Figure out what trans to use and install.
Install exhaust.
Bleed brakes.
Start engine.
Clean up interior of car.
Drive.

Okay its starting to look like May =P
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/19/13 10:18 AM

Looks good, have you thought about moving the trigger wheel closer toward the engine.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/19/13 10:40 AM

Unfortunately I can't. I would ideally like it behind the pulleys, but the timing belt cover wouldn't fit over it and it'd require serious cutting of the wheel then welding to the back of the pulleys on the harmonic balancer. And be mindful that this has a pressed on balancer and in the pictures the balancer is just barely hanging on to the crank snout because I didn't want to press it on then pull it off for the picture, so that balancer actually gets quite a bit closer to the timing belt cover.

This thing is definitely going to be a saw blade on the front of the engine. I'll make sure to put a "Warning: Don't stick your hand under the fan!" sticker on the core support, lol. Last year I saw a guy that converted an AMC 258 to EFI and had his trigger wheel hanging off the front end just like this (same wheel make even). I know one other car that is set up the same way, the guy calls it the saw, lol.

Here is my Skylark's which to me is ideal.

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/23/13 06:03 PM

I thought I wanted a red intake until I had a red intake, lol.


So it got another coating of some Pontiac Blue.


Painted up the water pump pulley and thermostat housing. Started the process of customizing a Q-jet for a throttle body.


I thinking of painting the Q-jet after I get it all cleaned up, but I'm still on the fence about it.


Look Ma, no venturi's!


The worlds cheapest 800+ cfm throttle body.



Tomorrow I'll possibly start on the fuel lines and some wiring. I need to drill and bolt down the trigger wheel and start looking at fabricating up a crank trigger sensor and start making progress again on the cam sensor.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/12/13 07:12 AM

Got back to this yesterday.

I finally gasketed the engine, so it's together for the long haul now. The only gasket I did not install was the cam housing gasket as I haven't got to the point of setting the cam timing and triple checking it for the EFI, so it'll be removed a couple times. Also finally got spark plug wires for it and drilled the trigger wheel to bolt to the harmonic balancer. And typical Randal cut twice and it's still too short it took me two tries to get the trigger wheel centered =/ Tomorrow's game plan is to attach the intake and exhaust back on it, plumb in the injector caps and start working on an engine run stand.



A picture with out the cam cover, I'll have to remove the timing belt from the top sprocket because I didn't actually set the cam where it needs to be (plus the cam followers are not installed), but the belt had to be installed since I installed the harmonic balancer for real this time (pressed on).


Also installed an internally regulated alternator, that one is a ~65 amp one, but eventually it'll probably get ~120 amp one.
Posted by: 64fourdoor

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/12/13 10:05 AM

Coming together real nice!

Any plans on porting that throttle body? Looks a bit varnished and gummed up.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/12/13 08:18 PM

Looking good!
How's the injector bungs held in place?

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/13/13 09:04 AM

The Q-jet, if I stay with it, will get a through cleaning before actually going into service. As you can see I already gutted the venturi's out of it and 750-800 cfm is already well above what a simple 250cid engine will use, lol. I have a a nice single throttle body that is an aftermarket piece for a Ford and a 90* elbow. I may see about working that in and not using the Q-jet. I'm on the fence at the moment.

The bungs are simply JB welded on. I took a grinder to the outside of the injector bungs to give them texture for the JB weld to bite on to.

Some more updating.

A long while back I removed the back pressure valve that was for warm up, and it left two holes in one of the exhaust outlets. So today I tapped threads into them, slathered some JB Weld onto the bolt threads and ran them into the holes. Then ground down the threads flush with the sides.



Installed the rubber hoses. Had another hiccup as the 3/8th clamps I got are not large enough, so I have to order some larger ones.


I really don't like the loop in the front, but the radiator hose does distract from it a bit.






I'm going to re-evaluate using the short segment of fuel rail connected by steel line. I was looking at the set up with the throttle body I have, and possibly the 90* elbow and might be able to have more room for the rail in the center than I thought previously. I would have to break one or both the center injector bungs loose as I have one slightly higher than the other so the hoses would clear each other.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/05/13 08:20 AM

Not a whole lot to report. I've started building the fuel rail pairs. I have to knock out the middle two injector bungs still and re-JB weld them in at equal heights for a center rail. I also built a test run stand for it to be able to fire it up, check the EFI settings and oil system modification before I install it in the car (or have the car EFI ready for that matter). I should have some time to work on this next weekend.

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/27/13 09:58 PM

Couple minor updates. Hoping to do some real work on it this weekend.

A while back I picked up a chunk of drive shaft out of a local machine shops scrap yard to use as part of the induction system for the turbo engine. A little mock up, there will be tapered runners to the head. Once sanded and primered it ought to look decent. I need the engine in the car to do a proper mock up for length though.







Also today I worked on making the cam sensor for the sequential EFI and coil on plug ignition by modifying the distributor some more and adding a sensor to the flat cap I made. It's actually just a prototype for now, I'll make a new plexiglass cover for the final product.

First I cut the advance plate into a tab.


Then I took the top plexiglass plate and drilled a hole in it that the sensor fits through. I contemplated going with a full grommet set up, but the sensor really needs to sit on the plexiglass to get low enough for it to pick up the tab. I used a cut down transmission dipstick tube grommet to minimize vibration. I might zip tie or black RTV it on there. Then I drilled and tapped a hole for a 1/4-20 bolt.



Then plopped it on the engine. The wiring harness is pointing towards the coolant temp sensor so the wiring harness should look relatively clean there. If the sensor doesn't reliably pick up the tab I'll either bend the tab a bit or weld a washer or strip of metal to the top of it. Hopefully this is sufficient to run as a cam sensor.

Posted by: Xerxes

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/29/13 05:45 AM

Silver Buick:

Thanks for the great thread. I've been following since you started and enjoying / learning a bunch.

Thanks:
Paul
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/30/13 09:39 AM

No problem. I did some more work in the last couple days.

Made a final cam sensor cap and cleaned up the distributor shaft some. It won't win any art awards but it should work.


Also installed the flex plate so when I go to start the engine on the stand.


Made the center injector rail, connected it to the outer two with steel braided hose. Started on the wiring. I have all the signal wires for the ignition coils ran as well as the fuel injector wires. I need to run the power and ground wires for the coils still, but have to pick up some wire to finish it. I also ran the coolant temp sensor wires. I wanted to do the cam sensor wiring, but realized I don't know which wires do what =P So I have to sort that out. It's a stock hall effect cam sensor off a GM 4-cylinder if anyone happens to know.

Drilled out the middle injector rail. Not very sophisticated but it works (well I hope it does...)


The injectors just peaking into the line. Actually they are pulled down a bit once installed as I found the connectors wouldn't plug in until I lifted the rail some.


This is where I ended the day. The injectors are in, the rails are linked up and the wiring harness is getting fatter. Lots of the wires might look the same, but actually they have different color stripes on them as well as text labeling printed on them.


And on the ignition side of the engine.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 09/20/13 10:16 PM

Started up working on this again. I didn't take any pictures of it, but I installed an OHC starter nose cone on a Buick 455 starter for a bit more oomph starting up.

Got the project work board out for this one. I've added a few things to the list since I took the picture, like add oil and prime the system.


Got the exhaust system for the run stand sorted out. I may have to cut the pipe just before the bend and adjust from there once in the car, this will do for now.
.

No where in Ely sells exhaust reducers so I had to improvise. So a few slices, some hammer taps and some welding fill. Due to my (lack) of awesome skills I had to fill a lot of gaps where the second pipe slide into that hole.


I also fabricated up the crankshaft sensor mount as well as did final mounting of the alternator, complete with new belt.


Got the sensor wiring routed safely around the exhaust. I'll put the alternator charging wire into the black loom when I wire it up.


Tomorrow's plan is to work on the fuel system and finish up the wiring.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 09/22/13 11:50 AM

Got the fuel side more or less done including the rail hold downs. I cleaned and gasketed the Q-jet as well. It was the grimy-est one I had so it only marginally cleaned up. I just remembered I need to add an O2 bung to the exhaust collector. I started to do some wiring, but wasn't in the mood to do it so will get to it later.

I'm trying an unconventional way of setting the fuel system up by not having the fuel rail return at the far end. I am monitoring fuel pressure at the end of the rail opposite side of the regulator, so if there is a problem it should present itself there. It should work similarly to the return-less setup, in theory....




Set the timing belt cover on it for a few pictures.


Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/05/13 05:10 PM

Finished up the main wiring on it today. I still have to make my two connector plugs at the rear of the engine though. I installed the O2 sensor that I had forgotten to do and had to switch to the Holley throttle body due to me being an idiot. The way the Q-jet is oriented on the intake the throttle isn't pulled, it's pushed and for some reason that didn't click with me until today when I was looking to set up the return spring and start on the throttle bracket with a 200-4r cable. So with the Holley I flipped the direction or the primaries and secondaries to put the linkage on the other side and in a pull situation. I knocked out the venturi's and made some plates to seal up where the float bowls used to be also.

Here is how it sits right now. I'll tie up the red power wire with the crank sensor wire before it's all done. I debated what color to paint the block off plates, but ultimately Pontiac Blue won. Red, black and silver were the other options. I forgot to take a picture of the other side of the engine, I have the wires pretty much loomed up.


Like the Q-jet, this thing was pretty grimy, so it only cleaned up so much, but looks a ton better than before. I have linkage brackets on order and should be in next week.


Some one was asking how I mounted my air temp sensor. I took the sensor to the hardware store, found a grommet that it fit tightly in, used a stepped drill bit to drill a hole in the base plate for the grommet and done.
Posted by: Bill Meglen

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/17/13 05:55 PM

Interested in the project but probably too much of it is over my head. We have hypothesized and gathered parts from a Jeep 4.0 EFI, including harness & computer, to fit to a 250, and perhaps then to the SOHC 6. Not far along. Clifford intake machined for injectors. Modified dist with Jeep cam sensor that should work. I am a distant "neighbor" in Gardnerville, NV. Enjoying your posts! I have a 1938 Pontiac 4 dr, with a 1968 Firebird "Sprint" OHC 6, with 200 R4 fitted.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/18/13 09:23 AM

The Jeep ports don't line up even close to the OHC head. I had a 4.0L EFI Jeep and actually have a spare intake manifold for it. It would take some serious cast aluminum cutting and welding to get things to work. I've only heard of a small handful of folks that have successfully used OE computers and wiring on a different car and never heard of someone successfully using an OE computer and harness on a different engine than what the OE computer was designed for (not counting stuff like a 305 chevy to a chevy 350, etc).

Fun fun. I finished the wiring a few nights ago. I'm planning on assembling the valvetrain this weekend and prime the oiling system to see how my modifications faired.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/19/13 08:47 AM

Got any pics of the vehicle this engine is going into?

Tempest, https://www.google.com/search?q=64+tempe...iw=1745&bih=825
Firebird?

MBHD
Posted by: efi-diy

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/20/13 09:28 AM

You might want to have another look at how you are holding the fuel rails onto the injectors.... The effective push off force is >150 # ..

do a calc on the opening in the rail area size #^2 x rail pressure....

Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/20/13 09:41 AM

Good point, that's why they are bolted directly to the intake in most apps.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/21/13 08:48 AM

Half the things on this engine are an experiment, including the rail hold downs. A big part of why the whole thing is going to be tested on an engine run stand prior to being installed in the car. I just did oil pressure tests this weekend and have some work to do on the external oil line and regulator as it is having trouble giving me the pressure drop I want. With the injector rails, on the engine stand I'll easily be able to pressurize the fuel system without the engine running. With the pump I have I can take the static pressure up to 90psi or so. I might spill some fuel if it comes loose, but it'll just be lost fuel and I won't start the test if there is a point of ignition around. Honestly I want to know if the rails will leak around the O-rings as I single pass drilled them with no special finish. That's the real wild card. The hold downs I can run a bead of weld or gusset a small line of steel to prevent bending upwards if needed. Worse case I'll safety wire the injectors to the rail and do away with the hold downs all together.

It's going into a '69 Firebird (I know the exhaust will have to be reworked to fit the chassis).

Picked this car up in Alabama and drove it home. It had a non-original 400/TH400 combination in it. I've yanked the engine and trans out a while ago and have installed the L6 frame mounts in it. I am going to rebuild a TH2004r I have for it and put in a set of 4.56 gears that just recently showed up as well.



Here is the throttle bracket with TV cable attachment installed. I will probably weld on a tube or pulley wheel to support the near 90* bend(s) in the cable towards the firewall. As it sat there, I stood behind the engine and had no issues actuating the throttle and it returning. I'll probably have to get the Holley linkage kit for the 700r4/2004r TV cable.


Here is what I've accomplished in the last week:
Got the plugs completed.


I was looking in the service manual and saw the tool they used to remove the valve springs and have made something similar that I think will work out of a Buick rocker arm and old allen wrench.




Getting closer to a running engine. I assembled the valvetrain, set the cam timing, topped off the oil and started priming the system.

Here is the used C-cam. Its the 175HP 1bbl cam. Figured I'd use this cam to get the engine running and driving and after I have the car on the road for a while I'll swap to a bigger E-cam, 215HP 4bbl cam. Notice the cam lubricates the followers directly.


Here are the lash adjusters in place before I set the cam housing on. I greased up the cam and followers before assembly.


The stock oil pressure is set at around 30psi, so I swapped the stock relief spring with a spare Buick white spring I had, which is supposed to be 60psi in the Buick (my experience says 75psi). I primed the system up and the system pressurized to 95psi, so I cut three coils off and it dropped to 70psi, which I am good with.



But then I ran into a problem. My external oil pressure regulator isn't dropping the pressure to where I need it to be. The spring on the left is the spring that came in the regulator, so I went to the hardware store and bought the spring on the right, trimmed it down twice and still can not bleed off even close to enough pressure. So I figure I'll have to go to a regulator that has a return line. I have one more trick up my sleeve to try and get this regulator to work for me. I'm going to install a valve in the external line and see if I can drop the volume to the regulator and see if I can gain the pressure control I need there. Basically an external adjustable orfice tube, lol.


I have the wiring harness off for the cam housing installation. Took about 5 minutes to pull it off the engine. I'll tidy it up for re-installation. I'm pleased though with how easy it was to remove.


Now for my valvespring compressor \:\) I took a spare 9mm allen wrench and a universal stamped steel Buick rocker arm and began cutting, grinding and welding and came up with this. The T shaped one has a notch at the end to hook the oil galley in the lash adjuster hole and I welded a nub on the end of the rocker arm to keep the T part from sliding out. I stuck a standard 6 point impact socket and extensions on the end of the allen handle for extra leverage. I'm considering cutting down the allen handle and simply using the socket and extension for the lever. More compact.


In action. I originally left the loop on the rocker in place, though shaved a bit, for structural reasons, but I think I can safely remove it if I box in the rocker below the allen shaft and on the other side between the opening and slot for the T.


So where I sit is correcting the external pressure regulator control and tidying up my wiring harness for re-install. Then I'll set it up on the engine run stand and run through the fuel and spark checks before actually firing up the engine.
Posted by: Beater of the Pack

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/21/13 09:37 AM

I was not following this build until this morning. The tool drew me in. The places I have lived before are littered with home made parts and tools that didn't work. When found by archeologists in the future the will think"WTF?" I have a theroy that most tools found from ancient cultures are the ones they threw away. They kept the good ones. Yours looks like a keeper.

I went back and read it all. I'm into it now.
Posted by: strokersix

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/21/13 11:35 AM

Nice work SilverBuick. I like your ambition.

This has nothing to do with your technical content and is only an opinion: The red on the cam cover looks good but not so much elsewhere.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/21/13 12:10 PM

Thanks!

I like the red =P
Posted by: GH

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/22/13 05:29 PM

Randal, don't you hook your fuel rails down. It looks like they are just sitting there not secured. Am I missing something? I am having a machinist make me an aluminum piece to fit on top of the 4-71 blower that will hold 4 EFI injectors.
Posted by: D13

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/23/13 07:53 AM

So if I understand this you're using MAP not MAF, right" I was trying to figure our why you didn't just turn the Holley 90 degrees to get 'pull inline'. I suppose a later model throttle body would look wrong....
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/23/13 08:40 AM

Gary, I think you are just looking at the pictures I have the cam housing and hooks removed. This intake is a temporary intake so the solutions just need to be functional. Here is a picture with the hooks in place. I may need to gusset them if I think the are pushing too hard when I go to pressure up the fuel system on the engine stand (engine off).


It is a MAP speed density system, no MAF at all. I have a 90* Ford intake fitting and a large single blade throttle body and I could not get the 90* to fit in a way I was happy with. The giant pictures that are screwing up the width of this thread are a mock up of what I'll be doing for a final intake manifold. Basically an inline tube with a single throttle body on the front and then six equal length runners from the main tube.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/30/13 12:55 PM

Some updates.

Since I want to get the car driving as soon as possible I have attempted a rebuild on the 200-4r I had collecting dust in the corner. Of course I won't know if I was successful until it's installed in the car. It used to live behind the 231 V6 in my Skylark for several years.


Fortunately it was nice and clean inside. Probably could of gotten away with just the shift kit as I found that the friction plates looked good and every spring I replaced in the valvebody was the same color as the one in the "shift improver kit", which is different than a shift kit.


Everything went back in... Hope it works! I am actively looking for the cheapest torque converter I can find that is at least a 2,000rpm stall and locks up.


This upcoming weekend I hope to install some 4.56 gears in the Firebird and I've bought the 4-speed version of this shifter (like in the video below), which of course there are cheaper shifters that accomplish the same thing, but the novelty will be a riot with the 4.56 gears I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1dyIZlL_HU0

Going back the inline six.
Got the external oil line and regulator working. I had to down size the feed line because it was bleeding off the main line pressure as well.

Right now I have a temporary 1/8th inch fuel line (rated to like 120psi..) for the external line, but I'll order up something more permanent. Worse case I'll go with some copper line since there isn't any flexing once installed. I need to come up with an oil return location. there is a rubber plug on the side of the oil fill tube so I might install the return into that or make a new oil fill cap with the return line fitting on it.
An interesting observation on the main line oil pressure gauge. I noticed this gauge takes a while to show pressure build up compared to the electric oil pressure gauge on my Skylark when I did a back to back test. On this engine both oil pressure gauges come off the same tee and one is clearly slower in responding, the one with the long plastic line. I think the air in the line causes the long delay and slow response in oil pressure, which is a common thing in mechanical oil pressure gauges.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcDLioxtjvE&feature=youtu.be


I've got the wiring cleaned up and installed back on the engine. As it sits now it's ready to fire up if it passes the fuel system pressure test. I need to finish building the engine run stand control panel, get some hoses for the radiator connection then I should be able to fire it up!
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/30/13 01:01 PM

I've been looking at some EGT sensors and input boards for the Megasquirt as well. I am considering drilling the exhaust manifold for the EGT sensors and retaining the exhaust manifold for the turbo.

I am hoping for enough resolution on the EGT's to be able to do some individual cylinder fuel trims to balance out the fuel in each cylinder and just have a single O2 sensor to know I'm still in the general AFR ballpark. When turbo'd it would allow me to set up some safety systems if a cylinder gets hot (lean out) or goes cold.

What's the furthest from the head some of you have mounted a turbo? I'm thinking I will route the single 2.5" exhaust over to the passenger side of the car via the space just past the torque converter and back up into the passenger side of the engine bay. It'll be quite a run of tubing. I'll see if I can come up with a better solution once this engine is in the car and can see what room I have to work with.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/02/13 09:01 PM

Gambled and lost. Definitely have a 2.73 gear set (2-series) and not 3.08 (3-series), damn. So for $180 I have an appropriate carrier and mini-spool on its way. I'll have $280 into the rear axle when done.

Got the shop and tools cleaned up and organized today. Got the engine back on the run stand and found some radiator hoses from NAPA. Hopefully the radiator doesn't leak =P I have two mufflers ready for testing as well.

Ordered a pile of things today on top of the carrier and mini-spool. I have a 2000-2500 stall torque converter, TV cable, Holley carb TV cable kit, and a dipstick tube and stick on the way. Getting ready for install, hopefully no serious hiccups when I do the fuel pressure test and start up.





Due to a friend's huge generosity I may be going to a reverse flow cooling system sooner rather than later! He said he has an automotive remote electric water pump and controller that is about ten years old but had never been installed/used that he is just going to give me!

So I went down to NAPA and asked them what the largest diameter heater hose they keep in stock was and I was delighted to hear they had 50ft of 1" heater hose. So I went to the hardware store and picked up a pair of 1" steel water nipples and welded them to a pair of steel freeze plugs. Due to heat while welding, changing the inside shape, etc I may have to find a way to positively retain them in the block. Like a set screw or plate. I'll cross that bridge later. Here is a pair of mock up photos.





Oh yeah, started on a control panel as well. Just have to wire it up.

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/06/13 09:01 PM

Finished up the wiring harness for this. The quick connects plug right into the engine harness. Most the other wires probably won't be used and will be trimmed once installed in the car. The only wires outside the plugs that will be needed is: +12v power, O2 sensor in, Fuel Pump trigger, and torque converter control.

I intend on adding a vehicle speed sensor and possibly a couple pressure sensors for fuel and oil and possibly electric fan control. Some of the other wires might come back into play for boost control down the road.

Posted by: GH

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/08/13 06:29 AM

Randal, send me the aluminum dash panel and I will engine turn it for you, w
hat do you think???
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/08/13 05:36 PM

Engine turn it? I've already disaster'ized it =P

I was looking at my exhaust options. Basically either half the Skylark's old exhaust or half the Firebird's old exhaust. I cut the Firebird's old exhaust in half. I thought about leaving the dual part from the X-pipe back, but opted against that. I should have enough exhaust stuff to be able to cut out and replace the remaining X-pipe piece with a good piece of mandrel bent tubing. On the right is 2.5" Skylark mandrel bent exhaust from a Summit universal kit complete with Summit brand muffler. On the left is what came with the firebird which is 2.5" regular bent exhaust with Flowmaster mufflers, I think 40 series but don't know for sure.


I should be able to make some quick back to back tests on how each sounds.

The Summit brand one bolted up.


The Flowmaster brand bolted up.



Wired up the control panel and megasquirt. It's pretty hokey but it'll get the job done. That battery is an old one out of my Skylark that I am pretty sure has a dead cell in it. I have the charger on it now and I think it'll get the job done just fine. It never up and quit on me, but would instantly drop to ~11.9 volts when the key was turned off, but would start fine the next day or even several later from 11.xx volts.




The outriggers for some anti-roll support. I won't get too crazy with revving it if things look shaky.



As the car sits right now waiting for rear gears and all the other work.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/09/13 09:36 AM

Since this is in the blown & EFI section, how bout some sort of device pics that compresses the air.
5 PGS of engine build & EFI w/no blower/turbo?

Are you at least thinking of blowing it?

MBHD
Posted by: Whitedog

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/09/13 02:00 PM

Your ignition reminds me of a Mercruiser 140 setup I worked on a few years ago. I always thought it would work good on a 6 cylinder.

mercruiser ignition
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/10/13 08:44 AM

This is my "throw together" engine, basically hauled it home from a classified ad, opened it up, pulled it all apart, nodded, put it all back together, used rings, used bearings, etc. I modified the head for the oiling system, raised the main line oil pressure, etc. Figured the first one of these I built shouldn't have too much machine work in it in case I screw the pooch on the oil mod's and EFI stuff. Basically it's lipstick on a pig, haha.

When I have it running good in the car I'll start on my turbo engine build, which will include custom forged pistons, a re-ground cam I have and a ported head. I know the shop that ported this head and will be sending a cleaned up head I have to them for chamber and port work. I've already had my head shaved to a true 12 port. You've seen my idea of going to a reverse flow cooling system, and part of that is to keep the head cool for the turbo that is coming. I have not yet purchased or sized the turbo as I want to get a decent baseline on this engine so I know what to expect before sizing the turbo.




Have it just about fired up. Tested the crank and cam sensors yesterday while cranking the engine sans fuel/spark. The spark is working as desired, but the fuel rails leaked at the injectors so I'm pulling the fuel rails off this morning to do some clean up passes with green scotchbrite and replace all the o-rings on the injectors just to be safe.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/10/13 08:58 AM

 Originally Posted By: Whitedog
Your ignition reminds me of a Mercruiser 140 setup I worked on a few years ago. I always thought it would work good on a 6 cylinder.

mercruiser ignition


Hmm, interesting. I have around $68 plus spark plug wires and spark plugs, then some small things into my ignition. Junkyard ignition coils and brackets cost me $11 (some how a friend get's them amazingly cheap), the crank trigger wheel, $32, crank sensor $25, junkyard cam sensor from a 4-cylinder FWD transmission, hacked up stock points distributor, a short length of 3/4" aluminum tubing a local store was trying to get rid of. So probably all in around $120 ignition system that will light off almost any amount of boost you put in the engine.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/10/13 10:41 AM

 Originally Posted By: TheSilverBuick





Nice!
I am not too familiar w/the Poncho 6's, what size valves are those & what do those heads flow?

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/10/13 01:00 PM

The stock valves are the same size as the Pontiac 389, 1.92" intake and 1.60" exhaust, but the ones pictured are probably 1.94" intake with the 1.60" exhaust. I don't recall off hand what it flowed, I just remember that it picked up a ton of flow by unshrouding the intake valve.

Here is a picture of the un-ported chamber and valve size. Both these pictures are from the engine I'm putting together, basically cleaned up the parts (hot tanked the head and checked for cracks)


And unported ports.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/10/13 01:06 PM

Here is my good head ready to go to the porting shop. I'm going to use narrower 11/32" valve stems as well. Lighten the valvetrain up a bit and add a couple cfm. I was tempted to go to 5/16th but opted not to.


You can see where it's been shaved to get a true 12-port versus the picture in the previous post that the divider between intake ports leaves about an 1/8" gap between the divider and gasket.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/10/13 10:18 PM

You could possibly also use smaller sized valve stems I am sure but you would need to install the correct sized guides. Same size the LS newer engines use.

They are metric sized stems, can't remember off hand what size they are, but they are smaller than 11/32"

Might want to look into that?

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/11/13 07:42 AM

Stock valve stems are 3/8th and I've already reduced them to 11/32 (bronze guide inserts). During that decision process I looked at 5/16, 8mm and 7mm (maybe even 5mm) options. I consulted with two different head porters and both stated that the reduction from 11/32 to 7mm (or was it 5mm?) might yield 5cfm and it was more about reducing valvetrain weight than increasing air flow. I feel confident I'll be able to maintain valvetrain stability with 11/32 stems to what ever rpm the ports choke at so didn't see a need to go to a smaller diameter stem. It requires custom valves no matter what (longer stem above the retainer notch) and it appeared the cost of custom smaller stem valves and retainers was higher than custom 3/8 or 11/32 stem valves and standard retainers.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/11/13 07:52 AM

I was set back yesterday pretty substantially when my fuel rail system did not work out. I cleaned up the holes, replaced the o-rings, etc to no avail. So I am going to a common rail but ran into the exact problem that caused me to look at "alternative" fuel rail configurations, namely I either have interference from the thermostat housing or with the throttle body. I simply cannot get a straight line to fit.

I got word the guy giving me a remote mount automotive electric water pump has put it in the mail on Friday so I yanked the thermostat housing off the engine, removed the intake, chiseled out the injector bungs, re-installed the intake, hung the fuel rail in place with injectors installed and bungs hanging from the injectors into the intake, and put a fresh coat of JB quik-weld on it. I now have a second coat of JB quik weld on it to make sure it seals and holds and will clean up and re-paint the intake this week.

I ordered up some 1/4" aluminum plating and will make a water outlet block off plate and a water pump hole plate and bolt a water outlet to the pump plate. I've already knocked out the two freeze plugs and installed the ones I welded nipples onto. Going all out on the external water pump now.

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/14/13 11:54 AM

Three steps forward, two steps back.






I'm waiting on some aluminum plates so I can block off the old thermostat opening and make a water pump block off plate for the water outlet to bolt on to.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/14/13 05:58 PM

My friend uses these & runs AN fitting & hoses.

http://sdsefi.com/hardware.htm

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/14/13 07:52 PM

I've seen those and they are pricey. At least around $40 each.

Got the new rail installed. I have to make a rail hold down, which shouldn't be too challenging. Still waiting on some aluminum plating to block off the thermostat housing. It's going to be a tight fit.. I may remote the fuel pressure regulator after all.








I probably won't do much work on the engine tomorrow. I am going to swap the differential carrier and gears tomorrow. I'll probably have to go to a shop downtown to have the pinion bearing pressed off, and I'll hone the old bearing out a bit and use it to set the number of shims for a good tooth pattern then install the new bearings on the pinion.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/18/13 09:14 AM

While not an engine update, I installed the 4.56 gears and the mini-spool into the Firebird. While the axles were out I checked and they fit nicely in my old 8.5" rear end with a true positraction and 3.42 gears. If things go south with the mini-spool and it doesn't take an axle out I can swap the rear end assembly if needed. I really want to run this engine with these gears! It'll be 3,000 rpm at 75mph with the overdrive.



Plugging away. Piece by piece.

Plumbed in the electric water pump. 1 1/4" inlet and two 1" outlets into the head. I hmm and hawed over how to set up the tee in the water line and decided that I'd straight line it to the front port to potentially have more flow go that way. If it does work that way then it will set the circulation up better to push the water from the front of the head rear wards where the largest opening in the deck is. As the water is heated up it'll get a second blasting of cool water from the pump. Or maybe it won't matter? I think I know how to wire in a relay so that it'll run off the controller normally but when going WOT (or some specified load) it'll go full tilt. Later I can add the condition when it see's boost.



I was looking at the water pump controller and the directions said to stick the probe where the thermostat would be for it to best control the temperature. I'm not sure how most folks install the probe, but I dug out a 230 OHC bypass spacer and reamed the hole out until it was a snug fit. But that still left the problem of seal and retention.


A short length of hose would do a good job of sealing, so I did that and two hose clamps. But then I found that I could still slide the probe with some effort. With the cooling system pressuring up I figured I needed better positive retention, so I had the hose hang over the back of the probe and stuck another clamp on there to keep it from pushing outwards.


Then it was time to make up my block off plates. A 1/4" thick plate of aluminum ready to be cut.


Cut and grinded out the aluminum block off plate. Drilled a 1 1/4" hole in the plate and bolted the spacer and thermostat housing too it.


The belt cover installed.




Posted by: tlowe #1716

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/18/13 09:30 AM

Question
How will you get air out of the system that is stuck in the head?
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/18/13 11:41 AM

Next new picture I post up will be of the thermostat block off plate in the cam housing and it will have an air bleed hole and plug. It's the highest point of the cooling system and ideal place to put a bleed valve.

Posted by: THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/18/13 01:41 PM

Instead of a plug use a Schraeder valve (tire stem). They are available at heating and cooling firms with a 1/8 or 1/4 pipe plug stem. Very handy. I use them on my drag cars.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/18/13 02:04 PM

Interesting idea. I contemplated using a simple brass valve or radiator drain cock, but an 1/8 NPT plug will work just as well and I shouldn't have to open it that often.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/18/13 04:40 PM

 Originally Posted By: TheSilverBuick
While not an engine update, I installed the 4.56 gears and the mini-spool into the Firebird. While the axles were out I checked and they fit nicely in my old 8.5" rear end with a true positraction and 3.42 gears. If things go south with the mini-spool and it doesn't take an axle out I can swap the rear end assembly if needed. I really want to run this engine with these gears! It'll be 3,000 rpm at 75mph with the overdrive.




I thought the stock Firebird rear axle is a 8.20?
Did you install a later model rear axle?

What trans are you using? 200R4?

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/18/13 05:03 PM

It's a Chevy 8.2" instead of a BOP 8.2". A previous owner changed it out at the some point in the car's history. Interestingly enough, my first '69 Firebird I bought back in 2000 had the same exact swap done on it, a Chevy 8.2" with 2.73 gears. The axles are the same as the 27 spline 8.5", which I have an 8.5" axle from my '77 Skylark that is direct swap, but has one bad axle in it.

200-4r I rebuilt, so it's quality is suspect as I've never rebuilt one before, lol. It was behind my old Buick 231 V6 for several years and in good working order when I pulled it for the 455/TKO-600 swap. It was super clean inside and I probably could of gotten away with simply doing the shift kit valve body modifications. I pretty much went full out on the shift kit and got a rebuilt 2,000-2,500 rpm locking stall converter for $120'ish on E-bay. Lock-up will be controlled via the MegaSquirt.





Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/22/13 05:29 PM

Got the thermostat block off plate finished up, complete with hole to purge the air out of the cooling system and wrapped up the fuel system. Took a few tries, but got the fuel system buttoned up. At least I hope I do. Today's testing seemed to go well, held 44psi of fuel pressure. After a few fittings were leaking at first so it was too hard to tell if I had some seeps or not after I had the system pressured up.

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/23/13 02:03 PM

It's running! I had a bit of a scare though. My oil pressure return line popped out when I first started it up and the oil that spilled all over the side of the engine and on the floor looked cloudy, which had me freaked out about a possible head gasket or worse problem. I pulled all the spark plugs and none had water on them. On closer inspection of the oil, it was very very aerated. So I drained the oil, and when it quit draining I ran the water pump for a while and no more fluid came out the oil drain hole, so I figure the oil was too thick for the temps. It was a mixture of 20w-50 and Lucas oil and the temps were in the high 20's*F, so I topped it off with some room temperature 10w-30 (and changed the filter just in case) and after running it for a while the oil still looks good and clean. No bubbles, no water, but I'll be keeping an eye on it.

My water inlets both seep a little around the welding, so I probably missed a spot on each. I'll look more at it later, but I may just add some aluma-seal to it and see if it stops.

Here is a video of it going. YouTube made it fuzzier, but you can still get an idea of what is going on. The smoke around the fill tube is mostly the oil burning off from when the return tube popped out of the side hole. I still haven't decided exactly how I'm going to affix the return line to the tube. Rev's pretty good considering there is not throttle position sensor and isn't tuned very well. The timing is probably off what is displayed by 5-10* as I haven't checked/calibrated it with a timing light yet. It gets a bit warm, but with hardly any tune and almost no air flow on the radiator, I can't complain too much, hopefully it cools off once settled in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlwdRxNeyuM&feature=share&list=UUspCpZrffJo4BJ5Am4jH-sA
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/23/13 02:38 PM

Congrats!

It should rev very quick w/just a flex plate installed.

My 250 w/just a flex plate revved like it was a late model sport bike motorcycle engine, crazy fast!

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/23/13 05:12 PM

Thanks!

Here is a video of starting it up and then the exhaust with the Summit universal muffler, a mystery Flowmaster muffler and then uncorked. It's not as loud as I would expect uncorked, but then again this is the small 1bbl cam in it.

Still needs some tuning work. I can't tell if the smoke is fuel, oil or condensation from it being 32*F out. I re-used the piston rings in it, so I wouldn't be entirely shocked if it's oil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4vxtb42llc&feature=share&list=UUspCpZrffJo4BJ5Am4jH-sA
Posted by: Beater of the Pack

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/23/13 06:40 PM

That is great. I like the Flowmaster but it's hard to tell for sure.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/23/13 08:08 PM

Looks like blue smoke, then condensation.

Flowmaster sounds good.

MBHD
Posted by: tlowe #1716

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/24/13 06:49 AM

I liked the Summit sound. Good job on all of it.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/24/13 08:19 AM

^^^First vote for something other than Flowmaster!

Thanks. I too am partial to the summit sound.
Posted by: Gearhead1

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/24/13 10:52 AM

I like the Flowmaster, but you have to have a way to uncork it, too!
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/24/13 10:54 AM

When you turbocharge it, you wont want either Summit or Flowmaster muffler on it. Too restrictive.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/24/13 11:12 AM

The turbo will be the muffler at that point!
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/24/13 03:28 PM

If you like quietness of the Summit muffler & sound, you are not going to like just a straight pipe & the turbo.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/24/13 07:56 PM

It's not so much the decibels as much as the deeper bass. But, if I don't like it, I'll change it, nothing to locked in.

I moved the car into the shop to start prepping it for the engine. More I looked over the car the more work I need to do to it =/ It was pretty sketchy driving from Alabama to Nevada, so I have to correct some of these things (brakes and steering are mint though).

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/25/13 05:48 PM

Look what showed up today! Now I want to drive it even more.

It sits a little far forward here because the back of the console doesn't fit between the backs of the seats, but I'll solve that.


Never let practicality get in the way of fun \:\)



This is what I mean by it doesn't fit between the seats. I'll figure something out, even if I simply have to trim the console.
Posted by: Nexxussian

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/26/13 11:03 PM

Wow, all that and cup holders too.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/28/13 05:03 PM

Throwing a couple turkey pot pies in the oven as I kick back for the night.

Welded a nipple to the oil fill tube and re-painted it, use the same technique as posted on my Thunderbird. Was interesting when it caught fire. I expected the oil to catch fire, what I didn't expect was it set up an airflow that had a jet of fire out one end and even sounded like a jet. Dropped it in a bucket of water I had ready for it when it lit up more than I was comfortable with.

Installed the engine in the car as well. I used the Ford brackets to lift the engine ( http://sohcsix.yuku.com/topic/3103/Are-these-brackets-for-the-OHC-engine#.Upfl0MTqkzI). The first lift try one of the brackets started bending, so I set it back down and ran the chain through both loops on each bracket and it was good from there. Was fairly level and straight even.

The scariest part of all engine installs.


Safely in!


Lots of room on the sides compared to a V8, but you guys know that ;-) A turbo is going to look good on the passengerside there.


This is pretty organized for me. I need to set the radiator in the see where I'll mount the electric water pump. Now that I've installed the engine, I can see I have more than enough room that on my good engine I won't drill the head for the external oil pressure regulator, I will certainly use the oil plug at the rear of the head.


The intake/exhaust side. I need to get a universal throttle cable that will reach the new location. I will still likely get a steel pulley wheel to support the 90* bend to the firewall. Likewise for the TV transmission cable. Oh, my exhaust system interfered with the motor mount, so I had to trim one of the catches off the motor mount that is there if the rubber separates. So I also used the old racer trick of drilling a hole through the motor mount to run a bolt with a lock nut at the other end, but not snugged up to the mount to keep the mount from separating.


After getting the engine in I pushed the car forward and now it waits to get the transmission installed.
Posted by: tlowe #1716

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/28/13 07:22 PM

Yeah, Now that is moving. What is your ETA to get it up and running?
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/28/13 10:08 PM

I'm not sure. The car itself needs some electrical and interior stuff sorted out and I'll have to pop the dash off to get that done, but I suppose that won't necessarily keep me from getting it running and movable. I'm going to get the center console and shifter sorted tomorrow before I start on the transmission. I have a TH400 crossmember, so I may have to do some cutting and grinding on it to bolt to the TH200-4r or come up with something different altogether (or worse case purchase one and wait). I have to plumb the fuel system on the car as well. And of course there is fitting the exhaust. Soon as possible is the goal.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/29/13 04:52 PM

Spent half the day working on the center console and installing the shifter. Should be good to go now.

I modified the rear of the console to fit between the seats. It is close enough.


Painted it black so it wouldn't contrast so much with the interior. It is all bolted in and the cable attached.



Here is a short video of what fun I expect to have. Yes I've sat there making engine noises for a while =D The transmission isn't installed yet.
http://youtu.be/2oXdv86PZoI
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/30/13 07:52 PM

Got the transmission in and bolted up. I don't think the crossmember that came with the car was an original TH400 crossmember as it appeared to have been modified in the past, so I further modified it. I cut the mounting bracket off and re-welded it on in a place and notched the backside to add clearance around the transmission pan. I hooked up the shifter cable and adjusted it as well. The dipstick tube is ready to be installed, but I couldn't get the rubber plug out of the transmission, so I'll have to wait until I drop the pan to change out the governor gear and verify the adjustment of the TV cable, and then I'll pop it out from the bottom. I need to bend up some cooling lines now. One issue I have is the universal TV cable I got is too short by about six inches, and it was the longest cable I could find. I have an idea on how to lengthen it that I am going to try tomorrow.

I need to set the car on the ground and measure out what length I'll need for the driveshaft. I have two to pick from to shorten.



Installed the TV correction cable bracket for Holley carburetors to the throttle linkage. I will adjust the cable once I lengthen the cable housing (assuming I'm successful). I'll tie the throttle wide open and drop the transmission pan and adjust the cable so the valve is pushed all the way in.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/30/13 08:34 PM

Nice!
I don't think your TH400 cross member is factory installed on a original 6 cyl car.

The original should be a stamped steel. Like this?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/68-72-Nova-67-69...1013a41&vxp=mtr

I know my 6 cyl 69 Camaro cross member is just like the ebay one.

I dont think you could get a TH400 w/a 6 cyl engine, but anything is possible I suppose.
Or Pontiac had them outfitted differently?

That trans should really wake up that 6. Great choice!

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/30/13 10:05 PM

This was an originally a Pontiac 400 and 4-speed manual car that someone had converted to a TH400. I pulled the 400/TH400 out and they are collecting dust in the corner currently.
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/30/13 10:21 PM

I remember him saying it was an original V8 car that he is converting to the OHC engine.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/30/13 10:26 PM

A video I made almost two years ago of the 400 idling.

http://youtu.be/1AQjROrQ0dI


It's interesting the link to the e-bay ad mentions it's for the big block and TH400, but my old '69 Firebird 400/TH400 that was a pretty original had a cross member similar to the one on the car now. When I installed the 700-R4 in that car, iirc, I cut off the mounting bracket and welded it to the other side to make it work.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/01/13 10:37 AM

A 4 speed BBC cross member, but not a TH400 cross member on the Ebay auction.

It was also, for a 3 spd manual, which my car was originally, PG, TH350, or 4 spd, SBC, or BBC, but not for a TH400.

MBHD
Posted by: domoautoparts

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/06/13 09:50 PM

Modification expert,Admire you
Posted by: domoautoparts

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/06/13 09:51 PM

Modification expert,Admire you
Posted by: domoautoparts

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/06/13 09:55 PM

Admire you,Modification expert
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/07/13 07:12 PM

Got some more done today. Installed the throttle cable and TV trans cable. I welded on a bracket to the throttle cable bracket to help support the throttle cable's 90* turn. There is still some play in the cable so shouldn't tug on it with engine movement. I solved the "too short" TV cable by getting some very stiff walled fuel hose (high nylon content?) that one end of the TV cable housing would slide tightly into and with a few hose clamps successfully extended the line casing. I had the pan off the transmission and adjusted the TV cable for the appropriate WOT position. I also installed a green 10-tooth speedo gear on the governor to get the speedo closer to accurate (still a ways off).

Then I installed the transmission dipstick tube, which ended up way taller than I expected. So I cut it down, which that part turned out good, then I "thought" I'd get fancy and when I cut the dipstick down I thought I'd cut the bottom off with the Fill hatch marking and then weld it to the bottom of the further trimmed dipstick so it'd read correctly. It was all good right up until the part where I welded it and the dipstick got super brittle. D'oh! So I need to pick up a new dipstick but when I modify it next time I'm going to overlap the lengths and drill two holes and rivet it. For now, the short stick will keep dust out of the tube =P And then I set the car on the ground to get a measurement for the driveshaft and by some miracle my old Skylark driveshaft is the EXACT size I needed. I picked up a new set of u-joints and will install it tomorrow which will be the real proof.

I started mocking up the exhaust as well. I still have to cut out the section of pipe where the X used to reside and do final fabricating of the collector to the rest of the system, but it's essentially in. I'm going to order up some 2.5" exhaust couplers before I go any further than I did today.


The throttle cable and TV cable hooked up and adjusted. I painted the bracket black after grinding the plating off the bracket for welding on the support. You can see one of the hose clamps and extension hose on the TV cable in the background.




The no bueno dipstick tube.


Much better. Even bolted to the bellhousing bolt.


The exhaust system. Here is the collector hanging down. The 400 engine had headers and the ball and socket coupler. I'm tempted to keep a 3-bolt flange there for quick removal. Haven't decided yet.


Looking down the car. It's up on jack stands so the axle is hanging low. You can see the hole from the X pipe.


From the side.


I put the car on the ground to measure the driveshaft, and took a picture from the rear.


Here is a picture of one of the motor mounts I ran bolts through. I used bumper bolts with the small head on the bottom and used all metal locking nuts on the top. I didn't run the nuts all the way down, they are about 1/16th of an inch from being seated to allow normal movement of the mount. I didn't have to do this to this mount since I didn't modify it, but by the time I 'thought' about it I had already drilled it. I cut half the safety catch off the other side to clear my exhaust collector, hence why I felt the need to do this.


And here are a couple shots of my saw blade trigger wheel in the car. Conveniently the bottom is protected by the cross member.




Just moving along.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/07/13 09:54 PM

Looks good.
A quicker exhaust removal flange is a V-band flange, & a good designed v-band flange does not need gaskets & don't leak.

This is a better design, self aligning.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-5-Self-Alignin...300970708683%26

Trans dip stick looks harder to reach than the stock length.

Could you use a velocity stack on your carb body?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-K-N-85-0200-...9daa160&vxp=mtr

Here is a nicer one. http://www.ebay.com/itm/K-N-Stubstack-Ai...350473593184%26

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/07/13 10:03 PM

Thanks!

I agree, v-bands are nice for quickness, but I shouldn't be removing the exhaust with any kind of frequency and it's only temporary while it's naturally aspirated. Then it'll get the whole exhaust redone and I can see using clamps for the turbo set up.

Likewise on the dipstick, I'm a pretty tall guy and had zero issues reaching the motor mount bolts from the top of the car, the dip stick should be a walk in the park and how often does one actually check the trans fluid if it is not leaking? Annually? I didn't like how it interfered with the spark plug wire. It would annoy me every time I opened the hood, now it'll only annoy me perhaps annually =P

The intake induction still isn't the most efficient setup. I did not gut the plenum of the intake so it does not have the best flow after the carb. I am considering installing EGT sensors in each exhaust manifold port, if I pull the manifolds for that I may opt to gut the intake plenum at that point, but currently it is likely the biggest flow hangup at the moment. Plus when I go turbo I'll be going to a complete custom intake and away from the holley throttlebody.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/13/14 01:58 PM

Hmm, it seems I did not update this thread before heading out of the country last month. Just a few things done. Namely welded up the exhaust. I started working on the interior stuff and wiring now so probably won't update this thread again until I go to start it up unless there is interest on the behind the dash stuff (like replacing the heater control cables, adding the MegaSquirt wiring to the car, etc).

The welded up exhaust. I lost the clips that connects the parking brake cables, but have since picked up ones from the junkyard (along with a new transmission dipstick).
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/01/14 07:06 PM

I've been working on some interior stuff of the car as well as the EFI wiring. But spent this weekend working on the plumbing. Just like when a friend of mine said I can make simple wiring complex, I've done exactly the same with the cooling system.

The primary hang up was finding a place for the return heater hose, so using 40 hose clamps and 32 hose connector I got a system that I think should work. I have pretty much convinced myself when I build the turbo engine I'll get a new aluminum radiator with a Menziere (sp?) pump attached to it with two 1" outlets since the two ports in the head are 1". Two hoses and done. I'll make sure the radiator has a return port for the heater hose as well. On to the mess. I've relocated the water pump behind the crossmember so I could fit in the tee for the heater hose return. So, I hope all this stuff doesn't leak!




Then I finally got to move onto the fuel system, which progressed much faster. I have a late 80's external Ford pump mounted in a late 80's Ford fuel pump bracket bolted to the firewall at an angle and mounted an OE of some sort fuel injection filter on the pressure side right before the regulator. That particular filter comes with a bracket so I bolted to the heater box, the cool fresh air side of the heater. I got the the quick connect fittings for the pump and filter from NAPA so the fuel lines are fairly easy to hook and unhook. I made a short length of nylon line from the pump to the filter, but might end up replacing it with steel braided line, but I am out of that at the moment. It's all fed by the smaller surge canister. I'm going to move the fuel pressure gauge from the rail to the regulator, and eventually add an electric fuel pressure sending unit to the rail end. Here is a similar picture.

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/09/14 08:00 PM

Yesterday I did this stuff:
I ended up abandoning the main relay under the dash and switched to a Taurus continuous duty fan relay to power the fuse box there and the power strip under the dash that has circuit breakers on each circuit.


On the other side is the gutted Caprice LT1 smog pump to use as a crank case vacuum pump. I still need a good container to use as a catch can. I'm wondering if I can make one out of a PVC tee fitting, cap with a drain plug and a valve cover breather on the top? I guess it would depend how much oil, etc it traps. For now I'm going to stick a drain pan under it to quantify what is coming out and since there is snow on the ground I have time before it sees any real road time. (I did end up putting a hose clamp on the hose at the end of the red pipe)


The only aftermarket gauge at the moment. The shifter console is way taller than the OE console so a triple set of gauges doesn't fit underneath the dash. I'll hook the temperature idiot light up to the MegaSquirt to let me know if it's getting hot (set to like 190*F or 200*F) and figure I'll do the same with the GEN light and voltage.


I set the MegaSquirt behind the center console for the time being. I may move it eventually so it's just sitting there at the moment. Maybe I'll velcro the bottom of it.... The carpet seems to have seen something that bleached the black out. Who am I to complain, the Skylark hasn't had carpet in a decade or more now so I'm just happy there is carpet.


The driver's side is a constant reminder the car used to have a stick shift. Maybe one day I'll make use of it, or not.

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/09/14 08:03 PM

The highlights of today are, I heard the engine run, a couple of times, but it certainly wasn't smooth sailing. Long post warning.

Started the day pretty good. Hooked the battery up and no smoke, sparks or pops. Headlights, tail lights and dome light worked, figured I'd check the stock systems first. Then tried the key. Found my trigger wire to my relay didn't power with the key. Not a big deal, found the needed power source. Then had the megasquirt and fuel pump relay power reverse. No problem, swapped plugs moving on. Things were looking good at this point. The system powered up, the megasquirt was reading the sensors, the engine cranked when pressing the start button. Though it seems the neutral safety switch is out of adjustment as it won't crank in park, but will in neutral. Won't crank in any of the gears so it somewhat works. Problem for later. Then it started to go down hill from there....

Started working on checking the fuel system and first the lift pump wouldn't prime, so I threw 7 gallons of fresh fuel in the tank (probably needed fresh fuel anyways) and used the shop vac to blow air into the filler neck and the lift pump promptly started leaking at both ends..... After tightening up the fittings, the filter, breaking at least one hose clamp, I tossed the pump and got a new one that had the fitting built in and a new filter. Only bathed in a gallon of gas in the process *blah*. Had a minor leak at the fuel rail and ended up moving the fuel pressure gauge to the regulator. By now it was mid-afternoon so I figured I'd skip filling the cooling system with water because I'd have to promptly drain it, and proceeded right to start up :thumbs:

Started the car up a couple times for ten or so seconds at a time and topped off the transmission fluid as well as ran it through the gears (speedo works now! Didn't when I got the car), and while doing this had no problems. The engine started reasonably well and shut off when I turned the key off like it should until......... it didn't...... The big difference between when it was working fine and when it didn't was I rev'ed it up high enough to get the alternator charging, and when I turned the key off the alternator was feeding the system, but cut off from the battery because I had the charging wire on the wrong side of my master relay and then bad things started to happen. The engine didn't shut off, but didn't sound right either, and I hit the power switch to the megasquirt to kill the engine but it was too late, the damage was done. When I key'ed back on the megasquirt did not power up. I checked and the fuse was good, it had power on the wire going into it, but nothing. Took a sniff at it and it smelled burnt =/


Dragged it into the house and opened it up and yup, a few cooked parts, some obvious and some not so obvious. Using the obvious visual cue's was easy for the damaged parts, but I hooked it back up to the JimStim and started testing the power circuit to find the two bad diodes. Started testing and replacing parts until I had power at the processor pins, and turned out just to be the two diodes.

Here is an obvious exploded capacitor


And an obvious burnt out power trace. (the copper color, it's not copper and doesn't conduct)


So I started troubleshooting. The exploded capacitor is essentially the first part that is installed when building a megasquirt and is part of the power circuit. So I started there. Fortunately I have some spare parts (not that any of them are exotic, but I was able to get it going again today). I replaced these four parts. The capacitor on the top right may not be bad, but I didn't trust the way it looked compared to the good ones. The bottom two diodes were toast, no conductivity in either direction.


New capacitors installed.


A jumper wire installed in place of the cooked trace. (it doesn't look pretty, but will work and is hidden in a case!)


So I went back out and took a video after the fact =D The phone picks up the fuel pump sound more than you can actually hear it in person.
http://youtu.be/ljgzz8O__Ck
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/09/14 09:03 PM

Congrats on getting it running?

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/10/14 08:38 AM

Thanks. Next Friday I'll install the rear shocks (just ordered, I forgot I had removed the bad air shocks a long time ago), bleed the rear brakes, pressure check the cooling system, then set it on the ground and hopefully back it out of the shop. I forgot to mention, that so far the transmission torques over going into reverse and drive and I ran the speedo up to 10-15mph(it's not accurate) so the transmission seems capable of moving the car. Couldn't tell if it shifted into second gear or not though.

I'll tune the fuel and timing a bit better and make a second video of it from outside the car. I'll have to get help installing the hood too.

Then I'll yank the seats out of it and install the seat belts that the previous owner removed but was kind enough to keep in a box. Then perhaps next Monday I'll get insurance and registration on it for some real driving time (weather dependant...).
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/14/14 10:25 AM

It moves under it's own power! Shifted into second gear putt'ing around the yard, which is enough for me to say time to go get insurance and registration! A few minor things to work on today and it should be cruising this weekend!

Posted by: GH

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/14/14 11:04 AM

Looking good Randal.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/14/14 02:47 PM

Thanks Gary!

Got it insured, plated, washed and now going to swing by NAPA and trying out the MegaSquirt 3's auto-tune on the fueling. I have to get used to the manual drum brakes again =P







Took it around town. Got it running pretty good once I leaned it out enough that the auto-tune could work it's magic. The water pump controller doesn't seem to be doing it's job, so I hard wired it on with the key and will monitor it. The steering wheel isn't straight though it tracks straight... I lined it up with the notch on the column... I'm getting two new front tires on it tomorrow, so I'll see if it changes (probably not, and it didn't eat any tires driving from Alabama), then straighten the steering wheel for now and fix the tie rod adjustments later. There are no good alignment shops in Ely and if it's not eating tires now I'm not going to screw with it. The trans autoshifts smooth enough, but doesn't really wind itself up with the pedal down. Likely a governor thing, and not liking the 4.56 gears. The shifter though works like a champ! There is a bit of a delay though when I manually shift it and the shift happens, and not as harsh as I'd expect. I drilled all the holes and put all the springs in for the "harshest" shift. Maybe the 4.56 gears and converter are dampening it? IDK, more run time will tell for certain.

Never driven a car with a spool before, definitely different. I'm putting narrow tires on it all the way around so that should make the manual steering and spool easier to work with.
Posted by: tlowe #1716

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/14/14 04:28 PM

Looks awesome! keep up the reports.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/14/14 07:21 PM

Thanks!

Another (better) video simply showing it start up, free revving, putting the camera(phone) behind the car for some more exhaust sound. Looks like it still smokes when lifting the throttle. I'll check the valve guide seals when I go to change the valve springs in a few months. Can't really complain though considering it's a craigslist long block I just disassembled, looked at, then reassembled with new gaskets.

http://youtu.be/cS5XhYO_NWE
Posted by: GH

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/15/14 10:34 AM

Randal, are you taking it on DW?
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/15/14 11:50 AM

The intent was to build the turbo engine and have it installed and dyno'd and take it on Drag Week 2015. That is the goal anyways. Last year I wanted to run the Skylark all out, unfortunately it broke before I got there, so I may take the Skylark in 2015 if the turbo engine isn't ready. I am taking this year off, I'd planned out all my vacation for this year before even last year's Drag Week.

Of course a lot can change between now and then, if I suddenly find myself with time in September I'll drive out there and take my chances on a walk-in entry.
Posted by: GH

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/16/14 09:08 AM

I think they would let anyone in that showed up. Tulsa is a lot closer for you. If you don't go who is going to help Mike and me with the MS stuff?
Posted by: GH

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/16/14 09:08 AM

I think they would let anyone in that showed up. Tulsa is a lot closer for you. If you don't go who is going to help Mike and me with the MS stuff?
Posted by: chevy2inreno

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/18/14 12:06 PM

I've followed your build from the beginning and am so impressed that it's driving now. Way above my skill level, Great Job.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/21/14 01:46 PM

Thanks!

I got new tires on it and am breaking them in properly =P

It's a bit cold (and rich) but gets the job done.
http://youtu.be/vnEXKvgsKyA
Posted by: Twisted6 I.I #3220

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/21/14 02:24 PM

Seems to me to be the best way to make sure they stay round LOL \:\)
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/21/14 03:06 PM

lol, I need to remember that one!
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/23/14 06:29 PM

Got the water pump and electric fan controlled by the MegaSquirt now. It seems to reliably maintain temperature between 185*F-190*F now, so my heater should work decently now. With that I attempted to change out the blower motor but failed miserably at getting the inner fender well out. I did at least manage to get the blower motor in the car to quiet up.

Found a pretty significant vacuum leak in my home made Holley throttlebody. I had cut out a port on the base and forgot to plug an opening. I knew something was up since I had the idle screw backed all the way out and it still had trouble attaining a low idle rpm. Now it'll sit fine at 550rpm with decent timing, so idle control has been improved quite a bit. I have found another, smaller, vacuum leak at the #8 injector bung. I wonder if the lower o-ring has been damaged. I'm going to ignore it for the moment, though I might be tempted to spray some kind of sealant on it and see if I can get it to plug up.

I think I found where the valves float, right about 5,800rpm =P Seems to blow oil out the dipstick tube at that speed as well though. I have the LT1 smog pump running as a vacuum pump with the breather, but it apparently isn't enough to bleed off the crank case pressure. Being as this is just a used engine of unknown conditions I put some paint on, I'm not surprised (the oil pressure at idle is pretty low too...but at least it rises decently fast).

Here is a datalog of one of the runs hitting 5,800rpm in first and second gear. It hit's 60mph at ~5400rpm in second, and with the 175HP 1bbl cam it's still a pokey 11.8 seconds based on the datalogs. Backed it up a couple times. In first gear it's pretty noticeable that at about 5,300rpm the rate of engine acceleration slows down a bit (and slightly noticeable in 2nd, I shifted into OD at 4,600/80mph), so I'm thinking the HP power peak is right around 5,300rpm. Shifting at 5,500 netted a slower 0-60, so it seems its still worth pulling the extra RPM from an acceleration point of view.

Click the link for a picture of the data log. It posts too small to see anything.
https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t31/1614483_10202570100427392_970816479_o.jpg
Posted by: tlowe #1716

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/23/14 07:39 PM

How do you have the timing setup?
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/24/14 07:38 AM

In what regard?

5 while cranking, 15 baseline at idle but the MegaSquirt will adjust it up as high as 23 or down as low as 5 to meet a programmed idle target (I don't have an idle air valve on this engine..yet). WOT is currently set at 38 at this elevation (6500'+, ~80kPa atm pressure) and around 36 at sea level (yes it automatically adjusts). I'm still working out where to set cruising timing as I have been adjusting the part throttle fueling, and with those changes I make adjustments to the timing (leaner = more timing).

I've incrementally worked my way to 5,800rpm, but now my rev limiter is set to 6,500rpm and it won't reach that. I tried a few times =P So time to set it down to 5,800rpm and the shift light at 5,500 or so.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/03/14 07:40 AM

I've just been driving this any day that hasn't has snow on the ground. Fixing a few minor fluid leaks that had cropped up here and there and making the car nicer to drive all around.

Going to do some transmission valvebody and governor modifications next weekend and look at installing an idle air valve for better cold start up (around 20F in the mornings).

I'm thinking in May I'll install the new E-cam (215HP cam) and start sourcing new valve springs (breaking in the cam with the weaker single springs).
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/07/14 09:29 PM

I was having intermittent issues with my fuel rail hold downs allowing the fuel rail to rock a bit from vibration and when it would twist to one side fuel would leak by a couple of the o-rings which got to the point I parked the car the last few days until I came up with a fix. Today I got some box tubing, cut it up a bit and welded it to the existing hold downs. It clamps pretty tightly on the rail and now the rail is definitely rigid.



In other news, I pulled the touchscreen radio out of the Skylark and installed it in the Firebird today as well. It is in an easy to see and use location on the Firebird compared to the Skylark that had it blocked from view by the steering wheel most the time. As a bonus the radio has a built in GPS so I can really tell what speed I am going now.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/07/14 09:47 PM

Not sure if you know this, but Tlowe had epoxied his injector bungs also, with turbo boost pressure they became loose.

MBHD
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/07/14 09:54 PM

To have taken such a radical departure from the normal build, you seem to have had very little issues getting this on the road. Great job! And a really nice build thread.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/08/14 07:30 AM

 Originally Posted By: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank
Not sure if you know this, but Tlowe had epoxied his injector bungs also, with turbo boost pressure they became loose.


I wouldn't doubt that as a possibility. Epoxy adhesion strength is highly dependent on surface prep and I do not know how tlowe prepped his intake and bungs, though I do know he is a pretty smart guy. I intentionally chattered the grinding bit in the hole for a rough angular surface on the intake and I put a rough grind finish on the aluminum bung. And after that explanation, I don't intend on running boost through this intake =P IF this engine sees any boost, it'll be through a fabbed up intake with either threaded or welded in bungs.

 Originally Posted By: CNC-Dude #5585
To have taken such a radical departure from the normal build, you seem to have had very little issues getting this on the road. Great job! And a really nice build thread.


Thanks! I'd like to say it was a well thought out plan but really it was a rough idea with each part figured out as I got to it. Things I would of done differently are, ran a 2" pipe from the front exhaust flange until it merged with the other pipe, ran the exhaust out the driver's side (the fuel lines are on the passenger side at the gas tank). Some one else I know now going down this route is using short LS injectors, and that may clear the thermostat housing quite well (and an aftermarket intake with longer runners to pull from the head).

I've been driving it as much as possible because I intend on the last weekend of this month to drive it down to southern California and will be a 1,200+ mile round trip in 4 days. Gotta get it shook down!! lol.

Today I think I will drop the transmission valvebody and make a few more shift modifications (and re-seal the drain plug I installed) and possibly install an idle air valve.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/12/14 07:12 PM

I did a bit of checking of stuff after work. I drove it to work today, so when I got home it was nice and warm so I popped the spark plugs out of it and ran a compression test. Before I did that though, I took a laser temp gun to each exhaust port as a check because I know those numbers will be subject to a fair amount of variation. Overall I'm pretty pleased. It's definitely pulling oil from somewhere, but I am suspecting mostly the valve guides at the moment.

The numbers as I got them. The compression numbers are probably about 20% lower than if it were taken at sea level given my elevation. That would put the numbers around 155-160psi. I'm considering playing with the fuel injector trims, particularly on cylinders 1 and 5 that are measured ~30F cooler than the other cylinders with the same compression. Maybe a little to gain on #6? Looking at the plugs, it looks like I should lean out 1 and 5 a hair to at least get them closer to balanced (in theory..).
.....PSI F
#1 130 350
#2 135 415
#3 135 400
#4 130 385
#5 135 385
#6 128 320

Pictures of the plugs. Expert opinion says to put a hotter plug in it, so I'll see about getting a hotter set. The engine runs nice going down the highway at 18:1 AFR's with 42 of timing. I will continue to try and lean it out more to see about gaining some mpg's (with 4.56 gears, lol).






And I finally stuck a timing light on it. Yup, still spot on from idle to 4,000+rpm.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/12/14 08:04 PM

I do not see why the "expert opinion" says to run a hotter plug, they look good in the pics, maybe they look different in person? Maybe too much soot/carbon on the top of threaded portion?

What is the heat range now? Autolite 65 is equal to what in an AC or Champion plug?


MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/12/14 08:34 PM

Expert opinion is of a guy I certainly trust as I've seen dyno and MPH results of his readings. His reasoning on these is exactly as you mention, looking at the threads aren't showing any heat and there is still a decent amount of carbon on them, aka not hot enough to be self cleaning. Be mindful as well, the LS coils have pretty hot and long duration sparks too, so the plug is the limiting factor.

Delco 44 and Champion 12
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/12/14 09:33 PM

Not sure if these plugs have been in your engine when adjusting your mixtures from the start?

When did you take the plugs out after a W.O. T. run, steady state cruise, idling for a while then pulling the plugs?

If you had run rich w/your plugs while adjusting your EFI, it is kinda hard to burn off the sooty black carbon build up when your mixtures were rich @ one point or another.

I would not necessarily go to a hotter plug, those plugs are a fairly warm plug. Might have old carbon build up when the mixtures were off?

What is the A/F ratio @ idle?
Having an advanced timing like you seem to have will make the plugs run cooler. Maybe run it a bit leaner @ idle?

I run 14.7-15.2 A/F range on my Syclone while idling.

I also run 1 -2 steps colder plug than stock, but it's turbocharged & I try to stay away from any detonation.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/13/14 10:37 AM

The plugs hadn't been pulled since they were installed a few months back. Same plugs were in the engine when running on the engine stand. Couple hundred miles on the plugs now.

The previous 15 minutes prior to them being pulled for the compression test and picture is about ten or so minutes of 2,900-3,000rpm steady state on the highway at 18:1 AFR and ~42 of timing, then a few minutes of idle while I shot the EGT numbers with the temp gun. I idle it at 13.8:1 AFR as it provides the stablest idle at 650rpm. Timing was around 10-12 but wobbles a bit at idle as the Megasquirt is using timing to control idle speed since I don't have an IAC.

(On my Buick I run a static timing number during idle and may do so here if I get an IAC on it, and my Buick also idles around 15:1 as richening it up doesn't seem to smooth out the idle any on that engine)
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/13/14 09:06 PM

[quote=2,900-3,000rpm steady state on the highway at 18:1 AFR and ~42 of timing, [/quote]

Must have been in the slow lane & at what speed w/those 456 gears?

Some guys hear think low gears are the way to go, "let the engine rev" & not get any mileage from it, OD, don't need OD. yeah when your engine cant make enough power I guess you need low gears?. \:D Rant rant

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/14/14 07:22 AM

70-75mph with the 200-4r and locked torque converter.

The clock doesn't lie, this thing is sloooooow to 60+mph, but it feels and sounds like a rocket ship the whole way! Going back and forth between my Skylark (w/ ~500-550HP,455, 5-speed, 3.89 gears) and the Firebird, is night and day. I blink in the Skylark and I'm doing 60mph, Firebird takes just shy of 12 seconds, but its fun getting there and sure seems closer to 8 seconds, but a dozen measured tests say otherwise. I'll be putting the bigger cam in this May. The factory rated the bigger cam at 40 more HP than the small cam, but that also came with a compression boost I won't have, and I may have of already gotten some of that with the 4bbl intake and dual exhaust manifold. That rating is a 22% boost in HP, I should be able to get probably 15% of that. After the cam is broke in I'll install stiffer valve springs for a bit more rpm. At that point I should really be able to tell the difference.

The real mpg test will be at the end of the month when I take it on a 1200 mile trip.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/14/14 07:32 AM

The problem with less gear and a relatively tight stock type torque converter is the rpm drops on the shifts pull it out of it's power band. Even with the well split 200-4r, and 4.56 gears, shifting at 5,700rpm with a 27" tire drops the rpm's nearly to 3,200rpm (not accounting torque converter slip) and it just takes time to pull it back up to 5,700rpm again. That's the only reason I don't want to switch to taller gears, like 3.42 to even 4.11's.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/14/14 04:54 PM

Yeah, forgot you had the .67 OD. Excellent choice on the 200R4 BTW.
You do not need the taller gears until you install your turbo set-up. Then it will make gobs of torque.

What compression ratio do you want to run when you switch over to a turbo?

Does it smoke the tires in 1st?

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/15/14 08:17 AM

Nothing has been settled on the turbo build except the cam. I currently expect to target the compression around 9.0:1, but may go as much as a point lower or half point higher.

Gears at that point will be switched out to something in the middle to high 3's and there will be a lot more stall in the converter. I'll be using a 4L60e/65e/70e at that point in time for better transmission control.

Since I adjusted the rear brakes (which with manual drum all around helped a ton in stopping power), it doesn't power brake nearly as easily as before, but can get them going. From a stand still, I still have a bog in the tune when I hammer the throttle from an idle that keeps it from possibly lighting them up from a stop. Off idle tuning is tricky without a throttle position sensor. Imagine tuning a carb with no accelerator pump, except I do have a crutch that the EFI can read a rapid vacuum change and apply a pump shot to it, but it is still reactionary to vacuum signal. I should be able to dial it in eventually (or add a TPS), but I haven't sat down and dedicated time to dial it in.
Posted by: tlowe #1716

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/15/14 08:32 PM

I found with mine the bog went away when I adjusted the "pump shot" or acceleration enrichment to be less. That was with the turbo EFI 292.
Posted by: efi-diy

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/15/14 09:16 PM

When you do go turbo remember that the available torque is non-linear. This causes issues with line pressure - with out being able to reference the line pressure to boost - you end up running high line pressures.

The other end is torque converter selection - you may want to wait to select the stall speed until you know where the boost will kick in...
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/16/14 07:13 AM

 Originally Posted By: tlowe #1716
I found with mine the bog went away when I adjusted the "pump shot" or acceleration enrichment to be less. That was with the turbo EFI 292.


Being as there is not throttle position sensor it's extra sensitive to having the VE table tuned exactly right for the pump shot. Admittedly right now the pump shot is extra heavy because when I first got the car running I had a bad lean pop when I'd stomp on the throttle, and a big pump shot stopped that. I have reduced the size of the pump shot significantly since I first got it running, but I'm at the point I need to spend more time in the low vacuum/low rpm part of the fuel table before I can reduce it any further. The only time the engine operates in that part of the table is when stomping on the throttle from a stop, so I just have to dedicate some time to doing that and making adjustments.


 Originally Posted By: efi-diy
When you do go turbo remember that the available torque is non-linear. This causes issues with line pressure - with out being able to reference the line pressure to boost - you end up running high line pressures.

The other end is torque converter selection - you may want to wait to select the stall speed until you know where the boost will kick in...


The fuel pressure regulator is vacuum/boost regulated. I have a vacuum line going to it currently. I'm thinking I will probably engine dyno the the turbo engine prior to install to know better what it'll do.

The layout of the fuel system will change significantly for the turbo engine (moving the whole fuel system to the driver's side, and off the firewall), but I'll be using the same regulator.


Thanks for the suggestions.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/23/14 10:32 AM

Not sure if you ever considered a different hood?

I always liked this hood, plus it should be lighter.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-69-Pontiac-...24e3e3d&vxp=mtr

My friend used to a have a 69 Firebird w/a 400 hood w/tach.

I helped him take off his hood a few times & could not believe just how damm heavy the hood was as compared to my standard 69 Camaro hood.

Anyways, just a thought, I know how much heavier the 69 Firebird is compared to the 69 Camaro & I always try to find a way to lighten up my Camaro because lets face it we are at a disadvantage as compared to the V-8's LS1,2,3, etc.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/23/14 06:56 PM

If I change hoods it'll be a long ways off, but I do agree it would save a ton of weight. I am thinking eventually I'll get an aftermarket engine cross member that'll save me some weight. This summer I'll switch the front end to disc brakes, and will probably get tubular A-arms at the same time. For now, I'll use the 4.56 gears to my advantage =P

Today I got the idle control valve setup by using a plate of aluminum and drilled and threaded it directly to the original PCV port that goes into the intake plenum, then had a 90 fitting on it with a hose going straight up to the air filter housing. Which I drilled a hole in the housing, inserted a rubber grommet and a hose barb. It is an early 90's Ford 5.0 valve.
Posted by: GH

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/24/14 06:26 AM

when we ran the Buick with the carb/MS for ignition I made a TPS using a small chain going to the sensor, it worked.
Posted by: GH

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/24/14 06:27 AM

when we ran the Buick with the carb/MS for ignition I made a TPS using a small chain going to the sensor, it worked.
Posted by: GH

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/24/14 06:27 AM

when we ran the Buick with the carb/MS for ignition I made a TPS using a small chain going to the sensor, it worked.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/24/14 07:07 AM

 Originally Posted By: GH
when we ran the Buick with the carb/MS for ignition I made a TPS using a small chain going to the sensor, it worked.


That's what I need to do. I have a TPS sensor with a nice arm on it, and have got chain for it. I just need to figure out where/how to mount it.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/24/14 08:42 PM

Started upgrading the alternator today. I found a 140amp CS130 alternator from an '89 Caprice that my local NAPA stocked for $140. Unfortunately the case is larger than the old SI, which didn't fit the adjustment bracket very well due to me spacing the bracket out a bit for the crank sensor bracket, so I went and got one of those threaded couplers (I think that is what they are called?) to adjust the belt tension. The alternator came with a serpentine belt pulley, so I replaced it with a dual groove pulley and will run two belts on it just to make sure it does slip under load. Unfortunately both parts stores closed before I had it together enough to know what size belts I needed to get.


(sorry about the over exposure, I forgot I had the exposure turned up)
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/01/14 02:13 PM

Trip summary.

From Friday night to Monday night I drove just shy of 1,200 miles. I didn't track the mpg's while driving around town in California, but out on the highway there and back it was averaging 20mpg. Seemed to consume/lose about a quart of oil every 250-300 miles which to me is a ton of oil. Basically I checked it when ever I stopped at a gas station and topped it off. All in all, I knew the used engine would likely have some issues, rather it was oil consumption, low oil pressure, or low compression on a cylinder or two, and it appears it only has an oil consumption issue at present so I cannot complain too much as the EFI and other modifications I made to it portion worked like a champ.

About an hour into my drive out of town, 60 or so miles, my external oil line let loose and sprayed the engine bay with around 1.5 quarts of oil by the time I noticed the oil pressure fluxuations and shut the engine off. FYI, that is a bunch of oil in the engine bay =P So the pink oil line I had couldn't stand up to the heat, and what is worse is I figured as much, bought a replacement 1/8 EFI fuel line hose that would have no issue with it and forgot to both install it or bring it with me d'oh! Since I was only an hour out of town I called a friend for a big favor of swinging by my house, grabbing the hose I bought and bringing it to me. I was up and running within five minutes of his arrival. I had five quarts of oil with me since I was unsure of it's oil consumption rate at sustained highway speeds. Turns out it's quite a bit so far. Cruising between 2,800-3,100rpm seems to suck oil out of the thing. I drove a tad slower home, but it didn't make much difference. I think this engine would do well with gears that would put the cruising speed right at 2,600rpm. I haven't calculated what ratio that would be yet. My oil air separator(pipe) isn't working nearly as well as I'd like it too either, so more work will have to be done there. I'm getting quite a bit of oil out the breather even when the reservoir isn't even close to being full. And getting around 20mpg, which isn't terrible considering the 4.56 gears and rpm's turning. a friend of mine says the cruising speed is equivalent to driving with 3.25 gears and no overdrive.

Here are a few trip pictures.

On the road.


On the side of the road.


Back on the road, and actually this was in California.


It didn't run hot, it climbed all the 6% grades in overdrive at 70mph with out issue, and made the trip with out fuss after the oil line repair. Funny thing about climbing hills. I programmed the electric water pump to be on when ever the engine is under a higher load, basically calibrated it so that if the torque converter disengages the water pump should probably be on. The logic is if I go WOT it'll pump cool water into the head regardless of the engine temperature to keep detonation at bay (which has turned out to be a non-issue so far), which will be helpful when I have a turbo engine in the car. The funny thing is, when I was pulling the first real mountain, about 10 miles of 5%-6% grade outside of Primm, NV, I noticed the engine temps dropped to 140F and kind of sat there until I crested the mountain then it started to climb back up to normal 185-195F range that I have programmed in. It took me several miles before I remembered the pump stays on under load, lol. The only time I think the radiator fan kicked on was while I was in a Carl's Jr. drive through for a while, and so far has been more than adequate at keeping the engine temperature in control.

Sunday was the big car day, went to two car shows and helped a fellow cammer set an engine and transmission in his '67 Firebird. The first car show I went too, the car had a constant crowd around it. When ever I'd go look at other cars my friend's would call my cell phone and say "Dude, get back here, these guys have lots of questions!" haha. Then and helped out setting in an engine and trans then made it to the tail end of a Buick get together in the same area. I'll post a couple more pictures later, but by the time I remembered to take some pictures of my Firebird there were only two other guys there. Got the same reaction though from the folks there.

A common sight around the car (I'm the guy in the hooded jacket with his back to the camera). People were equally interested in the engine setup as the shifter setup. Definitely made a conversationalist piece if nothing else.
Posted by: Twisted6 I.I #3220

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/01/14 04:53 PM

Great Job \:\) \:\)
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/19/14 11:00 PM

Turbo engine build is next?
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/21/14 10:22 AM

Yes. Forged pistons, ported head and reground cam with the knowledge it's going to be a turbo build. I will be making the intake manifold first and probably install it on this N/A engine to make sure it clears things like the wiper motor, etc.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/08/14 01:20 PM

Memorial weekend I'm going to swap in a new E-cam and followers. I'm going to keep the used 1bbl springs in there during break in. After some driving I may follow it up with the re-ground cam (for the turbo engine, and it's own set of new followers) for break in purposes. I need to decide at that point though if I'm going to lash cap the valvestems or dedicate a cam housing and shave the housing. I'm leaning towards lash caps.

When I go to do the valve springs for the E-cam I have to come up with either a good part number for a single spring (I don't think dual springs fit on an unmodified 1bbl head) or shim the springs I currently am using. BUT I'm considering pulling the whole engine and doing it a little more proper now. Still a weekend rebuild, but put new piston rings in and dingle ball the cylinder walls in an effort to reduce the blow by and while it's out install 0.001" undersized rod/main bearings to bring up the oil pressure some, and perhaps a minor port job on the head and chamber.

If I can't find approapriate springs, I might, might, maybe, snowball, take the head to a machine shop to cut the head for dual springs. And if I do that, I may use my remaining stock of new valves and get a valve job and surface the head. Of course I'll be hammering the valve stem height spec into my machinist's head if I get to that point.

The main motivation for wanting to pull the engine is to reduce oil consumption because it's making me hesitate driving it out of town (around town is fine). The Car Craft Anti-Tour is in July and involves an 1/8th mile track and I'm indecisive on bringing my Skylark which had significant upgrades since the last time it made it to the track or the Firebird. I'd like to see if I can get the OHC decently healthy (aka not blow oil every where..) and have the bigger E-cam and more spring pressure for some RPM's and take it down the track. Remember, mini-spool and 4.56 gears!
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/13/14 06:53 PM


Pulled the car into the shop to start pulling the cam housing. I might take this time to pull the engine wiring harness off to lengthen it a few inches as well as possibly pull the oil pump on the accessory drive apart for inspection.


A new E cam and new followers ready to go. I've numbered stamped them 1 through 12 to keep them matched to the lobes when I go to do the springs. I'll do the same for the 1bbl cam when I pull them.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/14/14 09:10 PM

Specs on new cam?

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/15/14 08:31 AM

Current Cam is a "C" Cam, aka 1bbl. 0.400" lift with 1.5 follower ratio.
1968-69 Pontiac 250/175hp
IVO 14.0 IVC 46.0 IDUR 240.0 LIFT 0.267
EVO 46.0EVC 14.0 EDUR 240.0 LIFT 0.267
OLAP 28.0 ICL 106.0 ECL 106.0 LSA 106.0

New Cam on the bench there is an "E" Cam, aka 4bbl automatic. 0.438" lift with 1.5 follower ratio.
1969 Pontiac 250/215hp Auto "E" 546670
IVO 14.0 IVC 50.0 IDUR 244.0 LIFT 0.292
EVO 52.0 EVC 12.0 EDUR 244.0 LIFT 0.292
OLAP 26.0 ICL 108.0 ECL 110.0 LSA 109.0

My reground cam was off a semi-blank E cam core and has .460" lift and slight split pattern on duration and change in LSA.

One of the things to consider is the OHC design in effect has the equivalent of a fast ramp lobe. The lift numbers always look tiny to me, but dyno testing says .460" is a good number and dimishing returns after that, something about port velocity.

There are a few folks making over 300HP naturally aspirated with a similarly spec'd re-ground cam (from the same guy that re-ground my cam), mine is tweaked slightly for a turbo. Ultimate goal is 600HP at the flywheel with the turbo. Here is a pretty cool SAE engineering report on the '66 230.
http://s412.photobucket.com/user/SPRINT-6/slideshow/S%20A%20E

Recap on the turbo plans to get to that 600HP. Ported head and chamber re-worked, forged pistons, big intercooler on the car, reverse flow cooling to keep the head cool, custom intake to separate it from the exhaust heat, EFI with sequential injection and possibly individual cylinder fuel trims to make sure each cylinder is running equal AFR's, precise timing from the crank trigger and individual coils and then cram as much boost into it as possible with a safe tune on 91 octane. I'll step up to a meth injection system if I'm just short of 600HP. If I can get to 300HP naturally aspirated, then 15psi ought to do it, but I'm going to go as high as practical, so if I make more than 600HP, I'll be okay with that too. I'll probably realistically be building two engines, first one is going to be a stock forged rod engine and heavy (stock syle) forged piston, second will be an aftermarket forged rod and light weight forged piston. I have reconditioned with ARP bolt rods and old forged TRW(?) pistons already.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/15/14 12:06 PM

Cool,

I thought the 4BBL Poncho 6 had over 10:1 compression & the 1 BBL version had much less?

Were the pistons different or cylinder heads between the 4bbl engine vs. the 1 BBl version?
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/15/14 12:46 PM

The cylinder heads have different size chambers machined into them. Pontiacs have machined as opposed to cast chambers, and the 4bbl heads had less depth to them. I'm using 1bbl heads in all cases.

The advertised compression was 9:1 on the 1bbl and 10.5:1 on the 4bbl, but every person I've heard that did actual measuring (including myself) show the compressions closer to 8.0:1 and 9.5:1. So something is amiss between the advertised spec and what has been measured. At full lift the valves don't extend past the head deck very far and the piston valve relief's are way over kill so I'll probably make up some compression when I go to a custom lightweight piston. I don't have the cc's on the old forged pistons to compare to the OE cast ones.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/15/14 01:25 PM

That is the problem with production tolerances a lot of times.

Our 250 inline 6's are supposed to be 8.5:1. depending on year of course.

But when you have pistons sitting down the deck, chambers being larger than what they are supposed to be etc, we would be lucky to have 8:1 \:D

MBHD
Posted by: GH

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/15/14 03:53 PM

Randal, that's great compression ratios for a big blower or turbo.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/15/14 08:35 PM

I agree Gary, but I'd like to stay above 8.0 if I can as it may be as low as 7.5'ish.

Took me about 20 minutes to remove the cam housing and all looks well under there.



I got a hold of a water jetting company in Las Vegas to cut me flanges for the intake and exhaust for $45. I'm going to get two sets made up so I can start working on my sheet metal intake manifold. So I can pretend to be like GH for a while, lol.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/19/14 07:45 PM

I'm getting serious again. For $318 after shipping and taxes I bought a full engine gasket kit, rod and main bearings .001" undersized, new piston rings and an appropriately sized and gritted ball hone. Now I need to come up with the proper valve springs for the E cam to reach 6,500+ rpm so when I blow the engine apart in a couple weeks to R&R it properly I can install better valve springs.
Posted by: lowboygmc

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/20/14 07:19 AM

Good job keep it up! How did you make the fuel rail do you have the bit?
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/20/14 07:34 AM

I bought the special sized bit. I forget the exact size but it's like 17/32" or so.

The super duper bit has three steps on it so it drills a hole into the feed passage but leaves a step for the o-ring to stop against as well as bevel the edge so it doesn't cut the o-ring going into the rail. I don't have that bit, I have a straight bit. So I drilled it slowly and in a learning moment, found that I should of stopped short of drilling all the way through and left the step for the o-ring, but I didn't so I installed some clips on the tops of the injectors that keep the injector from pushing too far into the rail, then I took a dremel and small grinding bit and manually bevelled the edges to slide the o-ring in smoothly. Next time I may use a cut down stepper bit to bevel the edges. This is all done on a Craftsman drill press.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/20/14 08:29 AM

Here is the bit I used for my fuel rails.





MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/20/14 08:44 AM

^^^ That's the fancy proper stuff!
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/20/14 09:19 AM

 Originally Posted By: TheSilverBuick
^^^ That's the fancy proper stuff!


Yes, pricey I will say, I had borrowed it from my friend.

I am not suggesting to ask to borrow the tool from him, but if you need your fuel rails machined & tapped, he can do that.

Cool guy. Here are his websites if you guys are looking for turbo stuff (parts), machining parts CNC, water jet cut flanges etc.

http://www.raceprovenmotors.com/

http://www.theboostdepot.com/

http://www.rpmmachineshop.com/

MBHD
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/20/14 09:37 AM

I have the injector bungs available in aluminum and steel if you need them and externally threaded if you would rather thread them into the intake instead of having to rely on epoxy.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/20/14 09:57 AM

 Originally Posted By: CNC-Dude #5585
I have the injector bungs available in aluminum and steel if you need them and externally threaded if you would rather thread them into the intake instead of having to rely on epoxy.


Interesting!

If steel I don't need it externally threaded. How much for 6? 12? Then out of curiosity for future projects, aluminum ones externally threaded and what is the thread size and count?
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/20/14 02:42 PM

The unthreaded aluminum or steel are $3.50 ea. Haven't decided whether to offer a threaded version in both aluminum or steel or just one of them. They will be slightly higher cost though of $4.50 ea. I planned them to be specifically for those wishing to convert a stock intake or aftermarket intake to EFI.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/20/14 03:13 PM

Thats a smoke'in good deal! I'd use the steel for my sheet metal intake and the aluminum for drill and tapping a cast iron or cast aluminum intake and threading them in.

PM me some payment details and I'll take a set of 12 steel non-threaded ones.
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/20/14 03:34 PM

PM sent.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/21/14 08:32 PM

I pulled an intake spring off the engine and all my assumptions on it's size were bad, lol. Currently looking at summit it's a Comp 984 spring, which Amazon sells 12 for $40. It should give me around 120lbs on the seat and 220lbs over the nose. That should help with valve float compared to stock spec's of 100lbs on the seat and 175lbs, if the springs still test to "new" standards.

While I had the spring off, the valve guide seal on number one looked pretty good, so I wonder if the other's look as good. I'll find out when I pull the engine apart in a couple weeks and change the springs.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/22/14 09:54 AM

I pulled the trigger and ordered the springs. Looks like my ball hone showed up yesterday at 6:30pm. I was out in the barn pulling the spring when it arrived and noticed it this morning as I was backing out of my driveway to head to work.

Here is a nice throw back Thursday picture. This is the engine that is currently in the Firebird and taken at my friend's house just south of Phoenix \:\) Picked it up for $200 with 2-speed trans. Left the trans at my friend's place for scrap.

Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/22/14 10:03 AM

Just curious if you were getting valve float & if so what RPM were you running it up to?

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/22/14 10:16 AM

Power started to drop off at 5,300rpm and the engine refuses to go above 5,800rpm.

I want the MegaSquirt to control where it's limited (within reason). Though most agree, historically, the ports and such 5,300 is about where it starts choking off. Pontiac humorously put the redline at 6,500rpm for these engines. I'm probably going to port the head when I have it apart to try and gain some more airflow/rpm. I'm putting the top end back together tomorrow morning with the E-cam, that has more lift and duration.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/22/14 11:57 AM

What is the duration on the camshafts @ .050"?

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/22/14 12:15 PM

No clue. The only spec I have is the advertised number of 244.

You can see the interesting shape of the cam lobe in this picture:


And you can see the chart about valve opening and closing rates being "faster" than the conventional in block cam. At least OE cams, probably fairly similar to roller cam's.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/22/14 08:51 PM

Yeah, those OHC have fast ramps on the cam lobes.

244 advertised duration is pretty meaningless.

I would think the camshafts are low duration & therefore will not rev that high.


It might have 200 degrees duration @ .050" but probably less than that.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/23/14 08:47 PM

Car is up and running with the new cam. Fired right up. I haven't taken it out on the road yet though. On the surface, it sounds the same.

I've also changed up the alternator bracket again, utilizing the stock adjustment bracket with some spacers.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/25/14 01:49 PM

I've been driving it around town yesterday and today and the off idle bog from not having a TPS sensor was bugging me. So I cut and drilled a piece of angle iron and mounted a mid-80's sensor to the Holley carb/throttle body and used a small piece of cruise control chain to connect it. With minimal tuning of the accelerator pump shot it's running pretty good and 90% of the bog is gone. I still have a bit of work to do, but it's pretty good now. And of course the first time I wired it up it registered backwards so I had to reverse the power and ground wires.

Closed throttle


Wide open throttle.


Since I am not gaining the 1.5 points of compression with the 4bbl cam, I'm going to go install the adjustable cam sprocket I have and set it for a full 8 advance. Should help the low end and bring the power level down the band a bit. Might even pick up a few mpg's.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/25/14 03:11 PM

I was always wondering when you were going to get tired of driving that way w/no TPS.

Are you trying to see if it will run better for the 1/4 mile?
Or trying to get better mileage by using a 4 BBL camshaft?

Trying to jar my memory, but didn't those OVC engines have camshaft oiling problems?

How much more duration is the 4BBL camshaft supposed to have over the 1 BBL camshaft?

When you install a turbo, are you using this same 4 BBL camshaft?

Not sure what your goal is?


MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/25/14 04:16 PM

Installed the Sprintbird cam sprocket set to maximum advance. The nice thing about the engine being a non-interference design is there is no risk to valve piston contact in the event of a goof up. I ran the engine before picture, so the timing mark doesn't line up in the photo.



and just a shot of the whole engine bay with the timing belt cover off. I installed the cover after the picture.


A short video of it running with the timing belt cover off.
http://youtu.be/Kb0T5-OFJnU

I've taken it for a spin around town and it's running pretty good. It is nice to have that bog gone.

Don't know the at 0.050" duration, but advertised is 244. I have a different cam for the turbo engine. It's a re-grind (because there are no cam cores available)but it has increased lift and more duration with a slightly split pattern on the duration.

If I end up installing the turbo on this engine, because I can, it will be with this cam. Long term goal, for the next engine build, is 600HP with a turbo. With a similar ground cam as my turbo cam (only difference is a wider LSA and slightly more exhaust duration) folks are making 300-320HP naturally aspirated with these engines. With more compression than I'm going to run though.

Primary goal for the turbo engine will be drag racing. Currently is just drive it often and to make it go faster and I'll see what the effects to mpg's is and decide if I want to compromise back to mpg's.

The stock oiling system was crippled by the factory to keep the lash adjusters from crushing the cam from too much oil pressure. I've remedied that by removing the two oil restrictions, upping the oil pressure relief spring from 30psi to 60psi and running an external oil pressure regulator to just the lash adjusters.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/25/14 05:20 PM

Nice!
Personally I like the look w/no cover over the cam gear. Good looking cam gear!

Looks like it needs a lot of tuning from the short vid?

Does it seem like it is fast at all?

ET estimate?

Maybe it's just me, but, It just seems this project is going in the wrong direction to go any quicker or better mileage (other than the cam advanced)
4 BBl camshaft install on a 1 bbl engine, w/ low compression.

I read you said this "Currently is just drive it often and to make it go faster "
But installing a larger camshaft usually does not make a low compression engine go faster.

I don't get it, it is ready for a turbo now, not later.
Just run low boost, & watch for knock.

But I guess as long as you are having fun tinkering with it, that is all that matters.

OK , I'm done . \:D
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/25/14 06:14 PM

This is essentially the "Science Fair" project. An experimental mule engine. The long block is currently just a $200 craigslist engine I put new gaskets in. I did lap the valves on my bench and replace one exhaust valve. With the radical oil system modifications I've made, the reverse flow cooling setup and the EFI patch work, I wanted to make sure it all worked prior to spending good money on a good engine.

With the 4.56 gears it feels like a rocket ship! I'm going to take it 1/8 mile racing in July and I'm contemplating taking it to a chassis dyno as well. But currently, it is slow, and I don't have any estimate for ET's.

I'll be driving the car and R&D'ing this engine while I build my good engine. I already have a second block with cylinder walls that sonic checked twice as thick as this engine's, like wise I have a second crank, re-conditioned forged rods, a head that's been trued up to a true 12 port and had bronze valve guides installed, as well has hardened seats. Its ready to go to a porting shop at which point in time valves will be bought and the seats cut. I've bought a set of forged pistons already, just waiting on delivery. And of course the turbo camshaft I've mentioned a few times. Even with all this stuff, the turbo engine is at least a year out, so I figure I'll be driving this engine in the mean time so I may as well make an attempt to get it to quit blowing oil, so doing a quick R&R on it next month.

I got the e-mail Friday my 3/8 thick intake and exhaust flanges are done at the water jet company in Las Vegas. I'm going to pick them up June 9th when I'm driving through. I will start working on fabricating my turbo intake manifold at that point. It too will be bolted to this NA engine. Making sure everything fits, etc. As each piece comes together this engine very well may get a turbo put on it for a bit. As I'll want to make sure the intercooler lines up, plumb the turbo, etc. But there are some big costs that come with not just the turbo and intercooler purchase, but I will be getting a new radiator with built in 55gpm electric water pump to clear out the hoses I currently have and make room for a turbo to be mounted on the passengerside. I'm still debating on if I'm going to run two exhaust pipes to the turbo for a true twin scroll, or if I'll simply run one from my current collector.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/25/14 06:17 PM

 Originally Posted By: TheSilverBuick





Same guy that ported and re-shaped the chamber on this one is going to do my head.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/25/14 10:05 PM

That cyl head looks like the ports are huge. Looks nice.

What are the port measurements?

Are they opened up a lot from stock size?

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/26/14 08:28 AM

They are opened up a bit and cleaned up a lot. I don't recall the exact measurements off hand but I think they were essentially gasket matched to this gasket.

(this is my cleaned up head in the photo ready to go to the port shop)

This is what the head on the engine currently looks like. No work done to the ports.


I scaled the pictures best I could and cropped them next to each other to show the difference in the chamber shape. The top head is currently the one on my engine. Basically opened up around the intake valve to unshroud it.


Hard to believe this engine looked like this when I picked it up a few years ago.




Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/26/14 09:44 AM

Cool, & Thx for the pics.

Those ports appear to be pretty good size.

I would not think to open up the ports to gasket match them.
They look too big already, might be low on port velocity?
Hard to say, by just looking @ the pics.

Maybe if you had a measurements of the intake ports & exhaust ports I would have a better idea on just what size those ports are.
Valve sizes in, ex? I forgot.

I would definitely not lower the floors of the ports. You would want to leave those floors alone, unless there is a big mismatch between the intake manifold & the head.

On the 1 BBL intake , are the ports divided?
It's been so long since I have the seen the 1 BBL & 4 BBL Pontiac Sprint 6 intakes side by side I cannot remember how they looked.
Got some pics?

Did the 4BBL Sprint 6 have better con rods than the base line 1BBl Pontiac 6? I heard they did but never confirmed it.

Your paint job on the engine makes it look new.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/26/14 11:41 AM

I just got an intake/exhaust flange water jetted and when I pick it up I'll port the head to match the flange. Then using PipeMax I'll get and use the taper and runner length for my sheet metal intake. It'll look similar to yours but far less refined, lol.

1.60" exhaust valve. The 1bbl intake is not divide, the 4bbl is, and both heads are divide EXCEPT about 1/8" gap short of being trued up with the mounting surface. My turbo head has that welded up and machined flat already.

Any rumor on the rods is complete crap. Pontiac re-designed the rods in later engines, but the 1bbl and 4bbl engines of the same year got the same rod. And they are forged, and they are forged of the same steel as the Chevy 230/250 engines per the numbers in the service manual. The 1bbl and 4bbl got the same piston as well, though the part number for the rings show the 4bbl got a better second ring (same top ring).

Paint = Lipstick on a Pig =P As they say, rattle can rebuild? lol

Here is my attempt at chamber re-shaping. Over all I am quite pleased. This was about 30 minutes worth of work. I had to account for a bigger/deeper chamber than in the picture because the one in the picture is a high compression head. I wonder if I should smooth out/open up the other side of the intake valve as well? Who needs compression anyways?

Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/26/14 01:33 PM

Hard to say on where to open up the chamber.

It depends on throat angles, valve job. Weather air swirls and follows air paths into the chamber or is very turbulent going into the chamber.
As I said before, not good at explaining how this all works, I do know how it is supposed to flow into the chamber though

Sometimes, a valve will look like it is pinched off & is so close to the side of the chamber, you relieve the chamber wall & it does not really help, well that is because that is not the way the path of air/fuel is entering the chamber.

From what the ported guy did to the other cyl head chamber walls, it looks like a lot of airflow enters the back side (close to the spark plug hole) of the chamber. That is how my cyl head picked up a lot of CFM, but mine is aftermarket.



If that guy knows how to port those Pontiac heads & is rebuttable I would just try & copy his porting techniques.
Or were you going to have him port it?

As far as compression goes, I would shoot for 8.5-9.0 compression ratio.

Again, not too sure you should go as big on the ports as the gasket is? Unless your flange is made smaller than the intake/exhaust gasket.
Bigger is not always better.

MBHD
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/26/14 01:48 PM

Hank, your comparing his ports to a siamese head that are way too small for those Chevy engines. A 250 has the same cylinder volume per cylinder as a 350 SBC does. And these OHC engines were designed for HP in mind, while the 250 Chevy was not. I bet if he was to cc an intake runner, it would still be smaller than an average stock SBC runner.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/26/14 01:53 PM

I will go to the flange size on the ports, regardless of the gasket size.

The guy that did the fully ported head in the pictures has R&D'd it with a flow bench to get to that shape, so it's what the air wants in this setup. Remember the valves are also canted at 14 off vertical, so the air is definitely racing towards that part of the chamber.

I took a dial indicator and some calibrated rocks and set the intake valves at 0.438" lift, which is how much lift my current cam has to show the difference. It was recommended to me, if I can, to get 0.020" shaved off the bottom of the head if I can. Hmm, I may try that after I port and re-shape the chamber on my running head, I'll see if the Machine Shop in Elko (2.5 hours away..) can shave the head in the same day. In the past they have been able to do same day work for me when scheduling it in. I need to run some numbers, but l don't think it's possible to bring the compression up too high from shaving the head while using a head gasket that is around .030" thicker than the stock steel shim gasket that is impossible to get now.

I adjusted the color for more contrast because the sun was white washing it out.


Then I brought it indoors. See that step in the chamber above the intake valve? That step is what lowers the compression, the 4bbl head doesn't have that step. So I will likely smooth that step out around the intake as well.


You can see where I was working with the dial indicator as it scrapped the carbon off the valve on the right. I just shifted the set up left to do the other valve.
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/26/14 01:59 PM

Look's good. Wish I'd known you needed intake and exhaust flanges for the OHC engine.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/26/14 02:48 PM

They are a bit different than the Chevy L6. For $90 I'm essentially getting a 3/8th thick steel gasket. Which then I'll have fun cutting up into the individual flanges =P I bought two of them so I can build one intake/exhaust and have a spare if I need to do it again.

I pretty much just looked up a place that does water jetting in Las Vegas as I pass through there from time to time. I'll keep you in mind when the next thing that I need cut out of steel pops into my head.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/27/14 05:59 PM

Called the machine shop in Elko and he said that it would be no problem getting same day turn around time on getting the head shaved on June 20th. I'll cc the chambers before and after I port them (namely after) and calculate the compression numbers with the different head gaskets and such to see how much I want taken off.

So the plan is:
June 5: Drive 475 miles to California.
June 6-8: drive around 150 miles
June 9: Drive 475+ miles home, stopping in Las Vegas to pick up the intake/exhaust flanges for this engine from the water jetting company.
June 14: Pull engine, start tear down.
June 15: Re-assemble engine from head deck down.
June 16-19: Port, port and port the head. Lengthen and clean up the engine wiring harness. Probably go to the friction tape like Squirrel.
June 20: Shave head to regain compression.
June 21: Re-install head and set engine in car.
June 22: Finish hooking everything up and hopefully start it up to take to work on Monday.

Be ready to go on the Car Craft Anti-Tour July 25th and down the 1/8 mile track.

June is going to be busy after all!

Piston rings and bearings showed up today. Interestingly enough Northern Autoparts sent me 8 rod bearings. The included invoice says 8, but my Amazon order definitely shows 6. Oops. Tracking says my engine gasket kit and valve springs are due here tomorrow.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/27/14 11:38 PM

Sounds like fun.
Found you on another forum. \:D

I'm planning on going. I'm a bit indecisive if I am going to bring the Skylark or the Firebird. I'm leaning towards the Skylark due to wanting to run at a track and the Firebird's oil consumption issue, but a lot can change between now and July!

http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum/bangshift/general-discussion/925567-car-craft-anti-tour-2014

http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum/ban...ohc-six-project

What does the Skylark run?

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/28/14 08:10 AM

I'm all over the internet =P Bet you can find the Firebird project on at least three more forums =P


I don't actually know. The goal was run as close to 11.50's as possible. It weighs 3,800lbs on the nose with a full tank of fuel and me in it and the quickest it has ran was 12.95 at 108mph and a 1.9 60ft(full 1/4, the event in July is 1/8 mile). It's a 462 big block Buick, aluminum heads, 10.3:1 compression, a relatively small roller cam and roller rockers, full EFI/coil pack treatment. Two things limited it in the past, one is it would start leaning out above 4,000rpm and was at a dangerous 15-15.5 :1 AFR by the end of the run, but fortunately didn't hurt anything. I was out of fuel pump capacity. Kept upping fuel commanded, and duty cycle would increase, but AFR's wouldn't drop. The second was I was running 3.42 gears in a nearly stock GM 8.5" rear, so I left the line with a light launch and I was crossing the finish line at 108mph, but only 4,800rpm. I shift about 6,000rpm.

So changes I've made since the 12.95 run. Second fuel pump staged in, had the heads professionally ported, from stock 1.55 rockers to 1.65 roller rockers, rear axle swapped to a 9" with a true trac carrier and 3.89 with aftermarket axles. I should no longer be running lean, I should be able to launch much harder, and I should be crossing the finish line at 5,500rpm or above. I intended to run it all out in Drag Week last year, but 600 miles into the trip getting there my pressure plate started siezing up and I failed to get the car to the event. I had over 20,000 miles on that pressure plate, including Drag Week 2012. Fluke? I have a new clutch set in it now and is working great. Oh, and I added electric cut outs to the exhaust to run open 3" exhaust instead of the dual 2.5" pipes that were on it.

The Skylark is the car I got when I was 16 and starting in 2008 had become my test bed for all my EFI and performance stuff. You can see in an earlier post, I tow small trailers occassionally with it too. I've put around 80k-85k miles on it since 2008. Basically my daily driver when it's not snowing or down for upgrades/repair. It's in the parking lot here at work right now. It gets 17-18mpg on the highway (with the 3.89 gear), which is about the same as my '07 Silverado with a 6.0l and 3 mpg less than the Firebird got with 1bbl cam.



Right after I went distributorless


Pictures to big to insert. Folks joke I have the engine installed with velcro and wing nuts because I have it out practically annually for upgrades and it only takes me about an hour to pull the engine/transmission.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/740444_4737397786544_1507922316_o.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/740229_4737742315157_92691588_o.jpg
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/28/14 09:12 AM

Looks like a nice Buick.

Was wondering what size injectors are you using?

I know on those brass fuel fittings you have on the fuel rail they are highly restrictive. The ID gets real small in the 90 degree turns.

3800 LBS, time for a diet?
Does it have those 5 MPH bumpers w/gas filled shocks?
What trans are you using? 5 speed?

A guy on another forum I go on got a crew cab 6.2 Silverado.
he shows it gets 17-18 in the city & 23-24 MPH on the highway.

A co-worker just bought a 2014 Silverado double cab & told me he is getting 31 MPH on the highway w/a 5.3.

Those cylinders shutting down is really picking up the mileage.

What is the Eaton supercharger for, the 6?

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/28/14 10:52 AM

It's a street car, heavy bench seats, steel wheels, the OE bumpers, the A/C works, etc.

It's a TKO-600 5-speed.

The Eaton was an idea originally for Jeep Cherokee I had with an L6. I've since gotten rid of the Jeep and never made any progress on adapting it to it. So it sits for a maybe some day on something project.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/28/14 07:04 PM

I realized that it is a street car.
But trying to run 11.50's & weighing 3800 LBS is asking a lot out of that Buick.
It's not a BBC

Just suggesting something to help you run your numbers.

Having open dump 3" cutouts is going to change your A/F mixture by a lot. Not only that, most tracks have to be a certain DB level, if it is too loud, they will not let you run.

I thought B.O.P. like to run tall gears, they are torque monster engines.
Not sure if the lower gears will help, you might spin too much, can't fit a big tire in there.
Just thinking out loud. Don't mind me. \:D

After you had the heads ported, what did they flow?
What is the guys name that ported them?

MBHD

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/28/14 08:29 PM

Jim Wiese from http://www.trishieldperformance.com/, he does all Buick stuff.

It should have the oomph to get me there, or close enough. The cutouts don't change the AFR's that significantly. I've checked plenty of times.
http://youtu.be/5lQ2fpHvCSE

I'm always monitoring how it's running.
http://youtu.be/RGROrwcl-LY

In any case, there is pretty much no time out on the street I can aggressively put the pedal to the floor without the tires starting to break loose on the pavement, so plenty of fun for street driving. And as I said, it gets 17+ mpg.

Back to the Firebird. I properly re-timed the cam, it looks like with the thicker than stock head gasket on it the cam was timing was 1 advanced. So I dialed back what I set it too on Monday and set it to what should be 4 advanced. More realistic setting.

The valve springs and engine gasket kit arrived today, so I have everything I need to rebuild the engine now.
Posted by: lowboygmc

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/28/14 08:40 PM

Keep us posted!
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/28/14 09:27 PM

 Originally Posted By: TheSilverBuick
The cutouts don't change the AFR's that significantly. I've checked plenty of times.
http://youtu.be/5lQ2fpHvCSE

I was not commenting on the A/F ratios @ idle w/the cutouts.
I was meaning the A/F ratios changing @ W.O.T.
Got any videos of the A/F ratios changing @ Wide open throttle w/the cutout open & then closed?



In any case, there is pretty much no time out on the street I can aggressively put the pedal to the floor without the tires starting to break loose on the pavement, so plenty of fun for street driving. And as I said, it gets 17+ mpg.

I think you could get 17+ MPG w/a properly tuned Quadrajet? No? It just takes longer to get there. \:D

Are you saying your 462 Buick does not break the tires loose on the street w/3.89 gears? What tires are you using?
Don't take this as I am knocking down your car, just wondering why it does not run faster than it does.


Back to the Firebird. I properly re-timed the cam, it looks like with the thicker than stock head gasket on it the cam was timing was 1 advanced. So I dialed back what I set it too on Monday and set it to what should be 4 advanced. More realistic setting.

The valve springs and engine gasket kit arrived today, so I have everything I need to rebuild the engine now.



On the Buick guys website http://www.trishieldperformance.com/q-jet-rebuilding.html
Needs an extreme revamp, none of the links works.
"2014 marks our 15th year of helping Buick Enthusiasts make their dreams come true."
Seems like no dreams have come true?
Good luck on the rebuild.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/29/14 08:02 AM

Let me add some comma's.

"In any case, there is pretty much no time ,out on the street, I can aggressively put the pedal to the floor without the tires starting to break loose on the pavement, so plenty of fun for street driving. And as I said, it gets 17+ mpg."

Basically in the first four gears on street tires if the pedal is on the floor the rear tires have no traction. Either on the track or on the street. I've never met a person with a carbed 450+ cubic engine engine cranking out 500+HP getting over 12mpg. Especially with steep gearing. Being significantly lean is why it did not make the power before, that and being nearly 1,500rpm under it's powerband for half the track.

I've done plenty of idle, cruising and WOT blasts with the cut outs open and closed. No video, but plenty of datalogging. Not hurting for data in that respect. Believe me I was expecting a change, but it did not happen. I think most people get an AFR change from reversion up the collector to the sensor, my cutouts are almost three feet past the sensor, so no reversion issues messing with the sensor reading. That and the EFI compensates for efficiency changes far better than a carb.

Fortunately the guy doesn't need the website to stay busy, he's got enough backlog of work from reputation.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/29/14 10:12 PM

 Originally Posted By: TheSilverBuick


,out on the street, I can aggressively put the pedal to the floor without the tires starting to break loose on the pavement,
Basically in the first four gears on street tires if the pedal is on the floor the rear tires have no traction.

Is it just me, or are these comments just the opposite of each other.?
Being significantly lean is why it did not make the power before, that and being nearly 1,500rpm under it's powerband for half the track.

Like I stated before, these engines are torque monsters, they should not need short gearing IMO.
When you dynoed your car, what was the HP & torque?

I've done plenty of idle, cruising and WOT blasts with the cut outs open and closed. No video, but plenty of datalogging. Not hurting for data in that respect. Believe me I was expecting a change, but it did not happen. I think most people get an AFR change from reversion up the collector to the sensor, my cutouts are almost three feet past the sensor, so no reversion issues messing with the sensor reading. That and the EFI compensates for efficiency changes far better than a carb.

Yep the EFI makes up for it.

Fortunately the guy doesn't need the website to stay busy, he's got enough backlog of work from reputation.


I was merely saying, the website does not work on any link.
When you post a link to a website normally you would go to it , see what they offer, what they have done, customers cars etc, his website,,,, nothing.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/02/14 03:16 PM

We're pretty far out in the weeds.

Getting back on track. I've ordered an HHR fan/shroud assembly for $54 off Amazon with free shipping. I wish I had thought/known about it sooner as the fan I have on there is a 1200cfm unit that cost me $56, and the HHR one is a 3,000cfm unit and comes with a shroud for even better efficiency. I should be saying good bye to getting warm at a stop. Its never gotten hot driving, nor actually overheated on me, but it's made me wonder a few times if I sit in 30+ minutes of Las Vegas traffic this summer would it over heat or not.

I've cleaned the shop area out so when I get back from California with it next weekend I'll be ready to go for engine removal, overhauling the bottom end and doing the porting work. While sorting stuff I found the scrap sections of the pipe I used to make the exhaust collector pipe and I thought it was 2-1/4" pipe, but it is actually 2" OD pipe, so I'm now I'm seriously considering going through with plumbing my turbo system as a true twin scroll system. Still haven't evaluated what type or size turbo I'm going to get yet though.

Ready for work. I have the new gasket kit, rings, bearings and valve springs on the counter in the back and the metal table cleared for the head work.

(should of seen it yesterday morning, couldn't even see the floor from all the tools, parts and packaging scattered everywhere)
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/03/14 08:31 PM

I thought I'd try and see how degreeing the cam with the head off in prep of having the engine apart soon. I have some variance between the intake and exhaust that I think should be mirrored (straight pattern) that I attribute to not having the lash adjusters locked down enough. I put some hose clamps around the top of the lash adjusters that the followers would sit on, but it was not perfect. After I had the cam housing and everything together I opened my degree wheel kit and noticed there are light weight springs in the kit, so when I do the other head/cam I'll use the light springs (and I think some o-rings) to further reduce the compression of the lash adjusters. The goal will be to pin down the intake and exhaust opening points at minimum and mark those points on a sprocket in relation to the dowel. Then I can use the degree wheel on the crank and reference those points on the sprocket.


I had some issues locking down the lash adjusters. I wrapped hose clamps around the top to limit how much the follower can compress it. When I got my degree wheel out I noticed it comes with simple weak springs, so when I check the good head/cam I'll use the weak springs and maybe add some stiff o-rings to the hose clamps to keep the lash adjusters from collapsing. Or maybe I'll modify/ internally shim two spare lash adjusters.


You can kind of see the sharpie marks I made on the sprocket. I'll have to do some math if I want to convert the crank degrees to the cam degree's, but as I mentioned, if I can at least mark out the opening and closing points on the sprocket in relation to the dowel pin I will have something to work with.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/04/14 07:37 PM

I'm heading to California after work tomorrow and heading home Monday, and should round trip around 1,100 or so miles I figure. I did a few minor things and upgraded the radiator fan assembly. I backed off the cam advance a few more degree's so it should be right at 4 advanced. It seemed to be struggling to get to crest 5,000rpm so this should help. Also smeared some ultra black RTV on the top of the underside and top of oil dipstick cap where the stick comes through the cap in an effort to seal it better for the vacuum pump. I found it whistles from time to time.

It's supposed to be 108 F in Las Vegas on Monday when I am heading home, so on the radiator side, I got one of the $50 HHR fan assemblies with shroud and it matched up mint. I shaved about 1/4" from the front and it cleared everything nicely. The tabs that stick out the side touching the tanks keep the fan a good distance from the radiator. At least I hope I haven't goofed up and find my self with a holed radiator. So far it doesn't touch and I can feel the air being pulled at the grill. The engine is running in this picture.


From the top. I put a slit of rubber hose on the top and bottom. Going from ~1,250cfm to ~3,000cfm ought to help. The battery voltage was good at the warm up high idle while I had it running as a test, so on the fan menu of the MegaSquirt I turned on the "idle up" option to make sure in stop and go traffic it wouldn't be depleting the battery. The GEN light lights up to let me know if voltage drops below 12.2v.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/04/14 11:01 PM

Looks good!

Did you ever check the amp draw from both fan assembly's?

At one time I tried a 1992 Camaro electric fan.
It drew a lot of amps, IIRC 20-30 AMP range, killed my stock low amp alternator.

It was not the correct set-up for sure.

Was wondering if you ever talked to anyone on how far a Sprint engine would actually make power to?

I am thinking you are trying to go past what the camshaft actually makes power to.
Just a thought.

Good luck on the road.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/05/14 09:45 AM

No I haven't checked, but I am running a 140amp alternator and at idle rpm with my two electric fuel pumps, electric crank case vacuum pump and the radiator fan going the voltage was over 12.5v, and goes up from there with rpm.

With the small cam advanced around 2* (due to the thicker head gasket), it was pulling to 5,800rpm, and seemed to peak about 5,300rpm. General consensus is the engine/head/cam should peak around 5,400rpm. With the cam timing fiddling, my goal is to get it to peak around 5,500rpm, and with the porting and valve springs, try and get it to pull to 6,000rpm. Factory redline was 6,500rpm, but again, general consensus is the engines, from the factory, rarely did well past 5,400-5,500rpm. I want to keep it advanced enough that I make up for lower compression than a 4bbl Sprint head (by closing the intake valve sooner), but at the same time I don't kill off the top end rpms entirely.

In this configuration I'd like to at least rev to 5,400rpm, but will only have to live with it another week before I take it all apart, port the head and shave a few hundredths off the head to gain some compression back. Then perhaps I won't need to advance the cam to up my dynamic compression and will be able to better cater to the upper rpm's.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/05/14 06:17 PM

Was wondering why 2 electric fuel pumps?

I do not know too much about those 6's, but are the cylinder head that bad flowing stock?

They have good size valves it seems.

I would think that what is mostly holding back the engine from RPM,ing is that the camshaft specs are short on duration.

A 300 Horse 350 10:25.1 SBC cams specs are I: 212, E:222 @ .050" .

I do not think GM would even put a camshaft with those specs in a 250.

But, I could be wrong, we need to find the actual specs of duration @ .050".
There should be some info out there somewhere.
Or get it cam doctored.
I am just thinking it's mostly the cam holding it back.

Found this just now.
"The camshaft had .400 inches of lift and 228 degrees of duration "
Duration at what though?

Sprint engine: .438 inches of lift and 244 degrees of duration

sprint produced 207 bhp at 5200 rpm and 228 lb-ft of torque at 3800 rpm. This spirited six-cylinder was also capable of revs to 6500 rpm and beyond.

I thought the high compression Sprint engine was a 230 CI? Or did they make a 10.5:1 250 CI sprint?

Any who, If it was a 230, & you are using the sprint camshaft in a 250 CI engine, most likely the engine will not make the same RPM, should be a little less.

So it says it could rev to 6500 RPM, but at 6500 RPM it would make less power.

Just trying to do some research.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxxlhgbvGmI

This guy had a larger than "H" cam on an engine dyno

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwZgizg88nM

"

This is a 67 Sprint now displacing 255 CID. The head has SS valves installed as well as hardened valve seats and bronze guides. The cam is 260 duration with .465" lift at the valve. (slightly larger than the factory H grind) The Headers are Clifford Shorty type. The engine makes power to 5000 rpm then drops off. We revved the engine to about 5500 rpm."

MBHD
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/05/14 07:18 PM

The 69 model 250 made 230 BHP@5400 RPM and 260 ft.lbs torque@3600 RPM with an "H" cam that had more duration than the previous 244 duration cam.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/07/14 03:03 PM

Valve stems are a measured 11/32, I thought they were 3/8, but I measured them when I had the cam housing off. All the OHC L6's were 230's in 1966 & 1967, and 250's in 1968 & 1969.

Duration numbers I figured were all measured at .006" per some old literature.

Looking at my 1bbl cam that I took measurements off (the sprocket picture with the degree wheel behind it), it looks like about 180 of duration at 0.050" on the intake, which is subject to error of +/- 10 IMO between my lash adjuster compressing, how I measured and how I've eyeballed it to the degree wheel. I have a measured ~240 at first measured movement and the spec's say 228. As mentioned before, the OHC design also fast ramps the valve. When I have the engine apart I'll probably look at taking measurements at 0.010" lift increments to see the true slope of the valve acceleration. It appeared very fast, and actually looked like closing was faster than opening, but then again I was turning the cam directly rather than the crank so the valve events were moving twice as fast as I'm used to with my V8's. Real measurements would settle the question.

Advantages I have going for me are, I'm not turning a water pump, I'm not pushing a mechanical fuel pump (you should feel the difference in turning the accessory drive!!) and my timing is far more tightly controlled as well as fuel distribution should be as well. I don't have tuned headers, but I do have a fairly opened exhaust, at quite a bit more so than OE. My turbo cam has a bit over 260 duration with a bit more on the exhaust side.

I'm hoping to get mine to a chassis dyno at some point, should be interesting. The turbo engine I'm hoping to engine dyno it before installing it. As a friend of mine says, RPM is king, get the head to flow and wind it up, and that is my plan, watch for the point of diminishing returns and shift there.

Two fuel pumps because instead of a sump in the fuel tank I'm running a surge tank, but the surge tank requires a lift pump to get fuel to it. Then the high pressure EFI pump pulls from the bottom of the surge tank. This is so it doesn't hiccup when intermittently sucking air when low on fuel. I use the OE mechanical pump on my Skylark instead of an electric. And speaking of which, the lift pump gave me fits on Thursday, so I ended up taking the Skylark to CA. So I may be changing out the fuel system in the car while the engine is out. Move it all over to the driver's side and get the pumps and stuff in a better spot.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/11/14 08:08 AM

I'm hoping to pull the engine tonight after work. I have everything disconnected except two bellhousing bolts, which I couldn't get to with the transmission cross member in place, so I need to remove the cross member and lower the rear of the engine/trans to get the last two bolts then out it should come.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/12/14 08:47 PM

Finally got the engine out today after work and I pulled the head off. The cam and followers are looking good.



The pistons were carboned up as I expected them to be given the blue smoke on start up and the substantial blow by.


Chambers also carboned up as expected. Valves appear as I'd expect.


In the ports, the intakes looked pretty much as I expected with some carbon on the back side of the intake valves, but the exhaust's color has me surprised. I've never seen the yellow/tan exhaust valves, but some engine people I trust say it's normal, so I'm good with it.


I am a little surprised at the clean spot on the valve stems,but otherwise pleased with how clean the port is.


All my exhaust port photo's are over exposed, but the yellow color is just odd to me. Nothing surprising about the ports to me.


Tomorrow I'll disassemble the head and start the measuring of the chambers and porting. I think the port work needs to be prioritized because I want to take the head to the machine shop next Friday, so I need it done before then. I'll start on the short block when I am done with the head.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/13/14 10:21 AM

Wow, that was an oil burner!
Freshened up engine should run much better.
Re-ring & bearings?
If reusing pistons, maybe get the pistons knurled to get rid of the slop? Old timers trick, actually helps oil retain oil on the piston skirts. Better lubrication?
What is the deck height? How far down the holes are the pistons?


That short turn radius looks terrible. (It's missing the radius/short turn. )
Wonder if possible to install lumps into that head?

All these different colors on the valves are thanks to fuel additives.

Are you going to make it a true 12 port head also?
You are doing the porting or that one guy that knows Pontiac 6 OHC heads?

This head is not for the turbo?
If not, going to shave it to try & bump up the compression?
Mill it .060"?

Two pistons have been changed?

MBHD
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/13/14 11:27 AM

These heads have 6 individual intake ports and lumps aren't going to help it. These engines were also built more with a performance goal in mind because of John Delorean's involvement with them and don't have a lot of the shortcomings that the Chevy 250 engines have. I think he mentioned his next build was going to be a turbo version, meaning this one maybe. I also saw some head flow data on a ported head and dyno tests on several engines on another site a while back. They have a lot of potential for sure.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/13/14 12:04 PM

It's getting new rings with a dingle ball hone this time instead of the flat stone hone I used last time (which probably did more harm than good). New 0.001" oversized bearings to tighten up the bottom end. As for knurling, I didn't measure out the bore versus piston diameter, but I'm not sure how much run time this engine got after the over bore, but there is no ridge at the top of the cylinder, but on the same token, if there was ever a cross hatched hone done, it was gone.

I'm going to be measuring how far the pistons are in the hole. I measured it when I pulled it apart a few years ago but cannot remember the number now. All the pistons are 0.030" over, so I guess whom ever rebuilt it last could only come up with four pistons from one supplier and got the other two to round out the engine. When I first disassembled the engine after getting it I was expecting just the two cylinders to be overbored, lol.

I still am having a pro do my turbo head, this is just going to be me working it over.

I'm going to smooth out the ports and open up around the backside of the valves and smooth out the valve guide bosses. Along with reshaping the chamber around the intake valve. Also remember, for the short turn radius that these valves are canted, not straight up and down. I'll cc all the chambers and match them up best I can then run the compression calc's with all the other pertinent measurements and then shave the head accordingly to bring the compression up to 9.0-9.5:1 if I can, but it may be tough to even get that high with these pistons. I'm thinking about having the intake/exhaust surface shaved some, but I don't think it can be shaved enough to true up the 1/16th to 1/8th inch gap on the intake. When I call the machine shop on Monday I'm going to see how much and if he can install bronze inserts on the valve guides to tighten up the seal around the valve stems. Or speaking of knurling, maybe I'll inquire about doing that to the valve guides.

I'm going to cut and grind the divider out of the intake plenum as well to promote intake flow. Its also getting more valve spring pressure so I can wind up the engine as high as I want to find peak HP. There is minimal harm in over springing an engine as long as it doesn't eat the cam.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/13/14 05:18 PM

Knurling the guides & pistons are just a cheap way to temporarily fit/fix things.
Doing this to the guides helps promote lubrication of the guides & valve stems, but it does not last long.

I have not checked lately but last I did, bronze guides cost about $10 each installed? Probably more now.

If you could make it a 12 port, you are probably going to adjust your fueling tables as it will not be a Siamese port any longer.
But since the gap is not too big from the factory, it might not need changing at all? Let us know your findings.
Easy to do, just a heads up.

My 4.3 Chevy V-6 heads have a bad gap also.
Please excuse the non inline pics.






MBHD
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/13/14 06:03 PM

He already milled the port face back on page 2 of this thread to eliminate the small gap at the intake port opening, so its already a true 12 port head. Oldsmobile did that also to their V8 engines back in the 60's and 70's. I never understood what the logic was to that and why they kept doing it even on the V6's.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/13/14 09:11 PM

To give you an idea how canted the valves are and the air flow rushing to the backside of the valve and how opening up the chamber on the far side has lots of benefits to flow.




The gap in the intake port divider isn't nearly as bad as your 4.3 head. Looking at it, I am tempted to ask the machinist to shave down the face some to see if it trues up reasonably. Though I don't have a sealed gasket for it (yet..?). I'd have to remove the freeze plugs in the face before hand.


Pulled the valve and springs off the head and did a bunch of measuring today. CC'd the chambers and the pistons valve reliefs (both types are surprisingly within 1cc of each other) as well as measured how far the piston was in the hole and how thick the head gasket is. Crunching the numbers still show I have very low compression, PipeMax calculates it at 8.022:1. The service manual advertises 9.0:1. The chambers have a horrid 76cc's, the pistons have 8cc valve reliefs (much less than I figured), the pistons are 0.034" in the hole, and measured head gasket thickness was 0.047", which is the same as the new gasket I have, so I'm guessing it crushes down to some number, probably around 0.040" for my compression calculation.

My handy dandy home made valve spring compressor worked like a champ.


I also outlined the ports to get an okay estimate of the current port area. Light coat of oil on the port, and a blue shop towel works great. I did the chambers to so I can try and figure out how much compression I can try and gain back by shaving the head.


A pane of glass for some back lighting and traced them out on some scaled engineering paper and can do a rough calc of area here, but I'll probably digitize the shapes to scale and let some computer software calculate the areas. Then I'll average the intake ports together to use as an intake number and then average 1 & 6 exhaust together and then 2, 3, 4 & 5 together for the two exhaust numbers.


Now I can begin the porting!
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/13/14 09:34 PM

The intake port looks close to being flush. Might clean up @ .010-.015"?

Are you using stock size valves on this head?

That is pretty low compression, too bad you cannot find some other pistons w/a higher compression height.
There might be something available.

What CC's are the chambers supposed to be?

I believe anytime you can create a better short turn radius the better the head will flow.
That is why I suggested some lumps.

Factory Pontiac V-8 heads flow pretty crappy. Even the SD heads have a lot to be desired.
The Edelbrock heads flow much better.

Nice pic of the cutaway OHC head. THX.

The OHC head looks like you could raise the intake port & it would be a good candidate for the floors to be filled in with brazing rod to improve the intake floor short turn.

That is the way I see it anyways.

I think part of the reason the OHC head flows mostly on the long turn radius side & why they need opening up on that particular chamber area is because the short turn radius needs a lot of improvement.

What degree is the OHC valves canted back?

SBC are 24*,

If you look @ the short turns radius's on the LS heads, they have huge never ending short turns.

When there is no good short turn radius, the air naturally follows the long turn side, if there is not a good short turn radius, the air will be more turbulent & not follow it.

Canted valve layout looks like a typical SBC to me.

GM learned it is better to have the valves more upright than canted, they just raised the roof & also the short turn followed.

It allows for more valve lift, that is why our 194-292's can go w/a pretty high lift w/out the valves coming close to the pistons, the valves are more upright, but our ports suck also.
That and Siamese ports suck.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/14/14 01:33 PM

I'd have to find it again, but I seem to recall that they are canted at 14*. I agree, the Pontiac bath tub chamber is terrible and have no idea what the engineers were thinking. I've roughed in all the chamber mod's (as I watch even more compression wash away..) but still need to cc each chamber to balance them out. I'm going to tell the machinist to shave as much as he is comfortable doing. Worse case, if the chambers end up too small I'll grind some more out. I've read numbers from 68cc to 80cc's. Using a 68cc with a stock shim head gasket would put the engine at 9.0:1 compression, but that is not what I've measured.

Here are some flow measurements that the guy that helped develop the port and chamber shape of the good head. Reading, up on the work he did, he started with a '69 1bbl like I am using (it's what I have), and testing 4bbl heads that have about 0.2" longer short side fattened up flow up to about 0.2" lift, balances out around .3" and matches up from .4" on. Which of course the loss of low end flow does hurt, but at least it's a fast ramp cam design.
 Quote:

The longer short side radius helps as long as it raises the port enough, but on this port, it makes for a noticeable cutoff right after mid-lift. By allowing the air a more direct path to the valve, the high lift flow is enhanced. I think of it as using more of the perimeter of the valve, but it may also reduce turbulence like you said.
One trick that I use is to get a spray can of machinist's dye and give it a quick squirt into the intake while on the flow bench. This simulates the wet flow of the fuel and tends to deposit the dye on the back side of the chamber, but it will tell you if you have made any gains on the short side by widening the spray pattern. Using the entire perimeter of the valve is the key, and is why a "long" approach to the valve head works so well IMHO.

Here's what I got on the stock 69 250 1bbl head #9795456
28" plenum pressure, STP corrected
lift--Intake--Exhaust
.05 ----28.92----26.02
.10 ----54.09----49.59
.15 ----76.10----69.72
.20 ----99.78----85.96
.25 ---122.14----98.76
.30 ---143.22---103.80
.35 ---153.62---109.29
.40 ---165.69---112.83
.45 ---172.95---116.19

.50 ---176.03---117.87
.55 ---179.05---119.51

'69 1bbl head. No port work, cleaned up behind the valve and chamber work.
Lift------Intake-----Exhaust
.050-----35.11-----29.23
.100-----67.02-----51.57
.150-----98.39-----75.70
.200----124.93-----94.53
.250----151.24----110.80
.300----175.17----121.87
.350----196.79----132.70
.400----209.74----139.04
.450----216.40----145.23

.500----220.14----149.20
.550----217.57----153.04



The first time I ported a set of heads I swore I'd never do it again. There is a reason professionals are paid good money, as my limitations are quite apparent. Hopefully though there is a net positive result.

[IMG]https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10402663_10203323053530749_540049495606708404_n.jpg?oh=56e129f098f2bced2cca3833528673d9&oe=540DF2EE&__gda__=1412194257_fab731282c308fab26efb81bc15647a9[/IMG]
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/14/14 07:39 PM

That head actually flows OK after it was cleaned up in the valve area & chamber work were done.


https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/h...6efb81bc15647a9

From your pics, the long turn can use a lot more opening up, IF, the casting allows you to do so?

Another way of seeing how the air flow is by using a stick & attach a piece of tape to it & insert the stick w/tape into the port & see where the tape goes.

Good luck with the porting, it is a time consuming art & takes a lot of patience.

Don't worry about polishing , that is just cosmetics for the most part. Makes the customer say WOW! \:D

What tool are you using for porting & what bits/tips?

MBHD
Posted by: GH

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/15/14 07:03 AM

Hank, I agree, siamese ports do suck, actually, they stink.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/15/14 08:41 AM

Just the run of the mill burr's available at the hardware and parts store. I really wish I had a set that were longer. I just have the ball, cylinder and pine cone shaped ones. A friend of mine that does professional porting (Nick for GH) says I need to get an egg shaped one as it's what he uses most, and also showed me a set that would certainly be nice to have but the limited amount I'd use them I couldn't justify purchasing. I'm going to make him cringe again when I lap the valves again, lol.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/15/14 01:07 PM

A great valve job cam make a huge difference in cyl head flow.

A lousy valve job can just plain kill airflow.

I.M.O., if you are going through the trouble of porting, unshrouding the valves/chamber work, having a great valve job can complement your work.

Since you are not going high lift, I would try & get the airflow early in the lift range & use a 55-60 degree cut under the 45 degree valve seat.

The solid carbide are the best for burrs.
I use them for various other types of jobs other than porting.
So, there are other uses for them.

I made the inlet radius with carbide burrs for my K&N filter to attach to.



Not using the aluminum elbow , just the velocity stack for the K&N



MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/15/14 02:16 PM

I 100% agree with you Hank on the valve job, and this head can seriously use one. The back side of the valves can certainly use improvements as well, but out of scope for this head. These engines are so sensitive to valve stem height, that if the seats were not installed and cut to the correct depth that it'd eat the cam among other things. So I just don't even want to open that pandora's box with the machinist at this time, I want a same day turn around time, so he is just going to shave the head, probably shave the intake/exhaust surface as well and maybe knurl or insert bronze valve guide seals.

Got the head as done as I'm going to take it. I was going to cc the chambers and balance them out, but I think I'll wait until after the head is shaved to cc them and balance them at that time.



A quick measurement of the before and after intake port diameter where it necked down looks like a bit over a 1/4 square inch was added to the cross sectional area behind the intake valves, which is about 17.5% more area if my math holds. Circles are funny things.




Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/15/14 10:58 PM

I understand.
You could still back cut the valves if they do not have any.

Should not effect the valve height.

I was noticing the turbo head you posted earlier pics of.
From the pic it looks like the guy only opened up the chamber on the long turn side, not the short turn radius side.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/16/14 08:40 AM

Yes, in the picture of the cleaned up head, that was a high compression head so there was very little material on the short turn side of the valve, basically the short turn side is "mostly" unshrouded on that head so they left it alone. On my low compression head the chamber is much deeper so I took steps to unshroud the short turn side, even though my short turn radius still blows.

I'm wondering if I could safely shave 0.10" off the bottom of the head? That would put my compression, even with the chamber mod's, right at 9.0:1, maybe a smidge higher.
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/16/14 09:28 AM

You will just have to get the deck surface of the head sonic checked to see if it is thick enough to take that big of a cut. You'll also have to compensate for your cam timing if you take that much off of it too. Maybe broach another keyway in the gear or something.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/16/14 09:56 AM

I figure a tenth is waaaay out there, but thought I'd ask. The shop did sonic check my engine blocks, so perhaps they can do the deck too? .050" would get me around 8cc's back using the standard chamber shape.

Cam timing is not an issue with the adjustable sprocket, it has tons of adjustment. Something ridiculous like 16-18 crankshaft degrees.
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/16/14 10:13 AM

Will belt tension be a problem if decking that much. I think .050" of milling will be a good compromise.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/16/14 10:54 AM

The belt tensioner/accessory drive is barely off it's minimum adjustment and there is at least 3/4" more adjustment.

I just got off the phone with the machine shop, they can install bronze valve guide inserts the same day as milling the head and they can sonic check the head deck as well to establish a safe number. This is always a chance the head has been milled before too, which would be bad for me!
Posted by: efi-diy

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/16/14 11:11 AM

Get hold of Dick - BOR they ran the OHC pontiac before deciding that they wanted to set the record and switched to the 4200.

They have many unobtainum parts for this engine.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/16/14 11:19 AM

Back to the OHC Pontiac.

You could deck the block & mill the head to get some sort of compression & get some quench going for you.

Unless the guy installing the bronze guides can drill them exact(not likely) you will have to get a valve job done.
I could be wrong?

Good luck.

BTW, your porting looks OK from the pics I can see.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/16/14 11:33 AM

Dammit Hank, I was thinking decking the block was out of scope, but now you have me thinking. The short block is still together, but I could have it completely disassembled by the end of tonight if I wanted..........

If I can get the chambers down to 70cc's, which a .050" cut should get me close or there, and zero deck, then I'd be a hair over 9.0 compression.....
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/16/14 12:30 PM

Now that I've unwound myself =P I'm going to stick with plan A. Mill the head, with a sonic check to maximize it, and the valve guide seals if they can do it without a full valve job. If not, I'll ask for knurling or simply live with it.

If I can get to the 70cc mark it will get me to 8.4:1 compression and I can live with that, and continue towards building my good engine. If I happen to find a 4bbl high compression head for cheap, it's a simple head swap and my compression would go to somewhere between 9.2 and 9.8 depending on which year 4bbl. Decking the block would put the compression up much higher than I'd want.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/16/14 02:24 PM

That's cool stick w/a plan that you & your budget calls for.

I was just throwing out some ideas, ("the while your at it syndrome") \:D

I was just mentioning that if you could get close to a zero deck your quench would be better, less likely of detonation will occur.

As far as having too much compression w/a 4bbl head, easy to open up the chambers & drop the compression as you already have.

Just some thoughts. I just do not like to leave HP (or a better running engine) on the table & not in the engine. Time to spank some of those V-8 things.

MBHD
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/16/14 03:24 PM

Did you ever determine what the stock deck clearance was on the OHC?
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/16/14 03:37 PM

No I haven't, but I measured the pistons at 0.034" in the hole.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/17/14 11:45 AM

 Originally Posted By: TheSilverBuick
No I haven't, but I measured the pistons at 0.034" in the hole.


That is a lot!!!!!

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/17/14 07:23 PM

Pulled the bottom end out of the block today. The bearings and crank journals looked good as expected for the low run time and the bores actually look better now than when I first assembled it. Some run time did their appearances good. Cleaned up the gasket surfaces and going to grind the rivets that hold the internal baffling in place out so I can make some extra baffling and then I'll bolt the OE baffles back into place. I pulled the deck's dowel pins out and will take the block with me to the machine shop and if they can also deck it the same day as the head work I'll ask them to scrape .035" off the top. I measured two pistons today as 0.037"-.038" in the hole, so .035" will give me a little buffer for errors in my measuring or difference in the other four pistons. The head gasket is thick if nothing else =P If I get both the head and block milled I might actually see 9.0:1 compression.



Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/17/14 07:39 PM

Hurray!

Hope it all works out.

I asked my friend (works @ a cyl shop for 20+ years, might be 25 yrs) about your short turn radius & he believes there is no air flow entering on the short turn radius side.
So in short, he thinks you opened up that side of the chamber for no gains & you lowered your compression.

Sorry to bring potential bad news.

Onward & upward to make more power.

Your getting it done quickly, keep it going.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/18/14 07:57 AM

Other's I've talked too say any time you can unshroud any part of the valve is a gain. Sure not as much as an awesome short side radius, but with the port taper it's going to flow some on that side so still have a net gain. Loosing maybe 1.5cc's on that side isn't going to radically alter the compression.

I'm going to work on the exhaust manifold tonight, there is some bad casting flash in two of the ports and a few other spots that could use some opening and rounding. I've decided I'm going to drill it for EGT probes as well. They are 1/8" NPT threads, so I'll put iron pipe plugs in the holes until I pony up the dollars for the probes and IO box to connect them to the MegaSquirt.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/18/14 07:24 PM

I grinded and chiseled out the rivets holding the internal oil baffles in place, so now the block is about as bare as it gets.

I once again proved to myself I cannot drill and tap straight (much like when I cut things...), and because I find nothing sacred, I drilled some holes in the exhaust manifold for future EGT probes where the A.I.R. injection ports would go that will be functional enough. For reference, only the '67 exhaust manifolds actually got the A.I.R. set up. I ground down the choke's heat well casting as well so when I get EGT probes in there I won't have any interference turning a hex nut.




Cleaned up and smoothed out the number 1 and 6 ports as well.

Number 1 looked okay, just a little on the bottom right and smoothed out a bit of casting flash further in.


Number 6 on the other hand had all sorts of over casting! So I ground it out and smoothed it up.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/19/14 10:31 AM

Hmm, I may have some gasket matching to do..... I finally digitized and scaled the port imprints I made and the ports are smaller than the valve area.... By a lot. I guess that'd be a problem with an over sized valved engine? Before I opened up the area behind the valves it was right about the same cross sectional area as the port, though I didn't know the port area then.

Also, despite the odd shape of the #1 and #6 exhaust ports their area is comparable to the other exhaust ports (at least after I opened up #6 yesterday) The average area of the intake ports were 2.34 sq inches and the average of exhaust ports 2-5 was 1.82 sq inches and 1&6 1.85 sq. inches.

The valve diameters minus the stem area are:
Intake: 2.803 sq inches (2.45 sq inches at the throat), 1.92" Valve, 11/32 stem.
Exhaust: 1.918 sq inches (didn't measure at the throat) 1.60" Valve, 11/32 stem.

Picture of the ports

So I guess I can stick the gasket on the head and gut out the head and taper into the port? Then reverse into the intake, though I cannot reach very far into the intake, especially where the runner curves. Live and learn I suppose, I didn't expect this problem. Though I'm sure the cross sectional area is still pinched down some a bit before the backside of the valve, where the valve guide sticks into the port.
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/19/14 10:45 AM

You can see where the exhaust manifold flange overhangs the ports on the head, this should probably be opened up to the port opening in the head also. This can cause a restriction for outgoing exhaust and can help exhaust breathing.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/19/14 11:30 AM

Yup. If I take the head to the gasket, I'll take the intake/exhaust to the gasket as well.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/19/14 01:19 PM

You mainly want to focus on the intake manifold matched up, no steps.
Unless you figured to port window is too small to begin with.

You do not want open up the entry just because the gasket is that big.

You want the port velocity high, making ports too big can make havoc on the low RPM response.

You do not want to air to slow down then pick up speed & then slow it down.
I suck at explaining this stuff, sorry.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/19/14 01:58 PM

I know exactly what you mean about wide spotting it at the gasket surface. Porting mistake #1, and why I did not touch the gasket side of the port outside of smoothing casting bumps. But now knowing the port's cross sectional area (2.34 sqin)is less than that of the intake valve minus stem (2.80 sqin), and the area from seat to valve at full lift is 2.64 sqin, the air is going to slow down from the gasket surface to the valve if I do nothing. So if I at least taper the port to the gasket now, and make a good showing of it on the stock intake manifold, it'll set me up well for the sheet metal intake, though the sheet metal intake is for the turbo engine, I expect the ports to be cleaned up to the standard gasket size.

Worse case the runners from the sheet metal intake have to be re-done, and I hardly expect to make a great intake on the first try, so may as well get a practice one in that can taper properly from plenum to valve.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/19/14 06:54 PM

The block and head are loaded up in my truck to head out at 5am to get to be at the machine shop when they open at 8am.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/19/14 11:15 PM

Great!
Did you end up doing any more porting?

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/20/14 09:48 PM

I'll write up more tomorrow after leaving the house at 5am and getting home a quarter after nine PM and ~370 miles on the road I'm tired.

I have not done anymore porting but will be doing more work now to balance the chamber sizes, take the largest one and match the other's too it.

I'll leave this picture here though.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/21/14 10:55 PM

When the machinist looked at the head his opinion was that the head has had some work done to it in the past. He said that the intake guides had been replaced with new iron guides and it looked like the head had been surfaced before. So he ground the valves and seats to a fresh 45* angle, pulled 0.030" off the bottom and a bit off the side to flush up the intake divider. In a mis-communication he cut down the exhaust valve guides so valve guide seals could be installed on the exhaust. Oh well, it's nice work \:\) The block had 0.035" shaved off the top, which should leave the pistons 0.003" in the hole if my measurements were good. I'm going to re-measure it when I have the short block back together, but crunching all the numbers now takes the compression from 8.02 to 8.58. I only lost 1cc from before my chamber work and cutting the head, from 76 to 75. I measured out the port lengths as well and was shocked at how consistent the were. All measurements port to port only varied by a 1/16" which is likely the margin of error of how I was measuring them (with a wire). Averaging the top and bottom measurements the intakes were 3.125" long and the exhaust were 3.063". I think it will want an 8" runner on the intake manifold for an 11" induction length.

So it turns out there is not a whole lot to do for the intake ports, and a bit to do for the exhaust ports. It looked like the

The intakes against the two gasket types I have.


The exhaust against the two gasket types I have.


The valves were re-ground. The stock 45* seat angle. The black marks are just sharpie marks.


The head with the cc's written on it.


I finished all the metal work on the short block. Got 0.035" shaved off the deck and flexball honed the cylinders. I tapped all the spots where the baffles were riveted in with 1/4-20 threads so I can bolt the baffles back in after I add more baffling behind them. I've hosed off the block inside and out and dried it out with compressed air and fogged the cylinders and deck with WD-40. I'll probably re-paint it either tomorrow or during the week. For now I have it bagged and sealed.



Tomorrow I'll work on the last bit of head work, get the head cleaned all up and possibly re-assemble it, with the new valve springs. Get the pistons cleaned up and install the new rings. Work the over the baffling and re-install them. Finish working over the intake and exhaust manifold ports with the die-grinder and if I get really really ambitious I'll get the cylinders real cleaned out and install the crank and pistons. I need to shorten the head dowels and make sure the head bolts don't bottom out.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/21/14 11:21 PM

Nice work you have done & fast!

Did you get guides installed or they were good?

From the pics, it does not look like the valves were back cut?
Hard to see for sure if there are two angle cuts?

Not sure if it just has a 45 degree cut.
Having a wide margin for the seat & no back cut on the valves can hurt airflow.

But, having a large 45 degree seat will make the valve job last longer.

Are you going to make a sheet metal intake manifold for this engine or for a turbo engine?

I'll say you have it running in a couple days, you work fast.

Nice work again!

MBHD
Posted by: tlowe #1716

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/22/14 06:35 AM

When opening up the exhaust ports, don't spend a bunch of time on the bottoms of ports. Concentrate on the tops of ports. Very little flow in the bottoms, infact, you can hurt flow by opening the bottoms. Keep up the good work.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/22/14 09:26 AM

The margins aren't that wide on the head, maybe about .05", seemed like a standard contact width to me. It's a single angle cut, ran out of time to do a multi-angle job. The machinist really wanted to do a 3-angle job on them, but between the rough shape of the valves and the time limitation I imposed on him, he was limited to a stock single 45* cut. Three of the intake valves he absolutely did not like the look of, but new valves are either pricey NOS or full custom, and I already have spent more than I wanted too plus again the time constraint.

The guides on the intakes apparently had been replaced before and he said he didn't see any reason to replace any of the guides and that I was using the wrong type of valve stem seal on the intakes.

I'm going to make the sheet metal intake on this engine so I can be sure it clear's everything like the wiper motor. I am changing up how I was going about it though, originally I was going to use simple exhaust tubing, but now I'm going to take a 2x4 and shave it down with the proper taper and bend and hammer sheet metal around it. It should get me a consistently shaped runner that is rectangular like the port. My air flow buddy is ready to make me an aluminum intake, but had to tell him he was putting the cart before the horse because I need to know it clears everything. So I may take him up on his offer when I have a functional intake that clears everything and ready to spend the money.

I agree with you Tom on the exhaust ports, I'm not going to go all out on the bottoms.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/22/14 01:38 PM

.050" Standard width probably, but that is not for performance width.

It will work fine, just not as good as a performance valve job could have, & I am not talking a couple CFM difference in a standard plain valve job compared to a performance valve job.

All these little items, seat width, proper angles, throat angles etc, can all add up to a whole bunch more CFM.
Probably not too critical for what you are doing with this engine I think.

My prediction still stands, you have 2 days to get it running. ;\)
Good luck!

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/22/14 02:51 PM

Not at the rate of work I did today =P The only thing I did today was make the baffles and touch up the paint on the block =P I'm hoping the baffles help as I've done no research on effective baffling. The 1/4-20 screws are loc-tite'd in.

This is the stock oil fill tube baffle. It's easy to see the light where the oil fill tube goes. This is also the side of the block the crankshaft slings oil upwards.


So I riveted some sheet metal to it to try and trap the slinged oil and let it run down the sides. I was holding it upside down in the picture, so I rotated the picture. I had to notch it afterwards because of interference with the oil dipstick, so it got a bit rough on that side.


In place and no more light seen. Then from the top, when adding oil, it should hit the baffle at the top and run down the sides.




The stock baffling on the PCV port. The light is the hole for the PCV tube.


This one I really wasn't certain what to do for it, so I just made some air flow interrupters that I hope cause the oil to drop out. Most the air should change directions at least twice before making it to the port.


The baffles push up against the block, mostly sealing against it, so again most the air will change directions twice before getting to the port, hopefully dropping oil along the way. The shiny brass fitting there is a port I added to measure the crankcase vacuum/pressure. I'll have it hooked to a vacuum/boost gauge and maybe someday to the megasquirt as something to datalog.


I'll shoot for next Friday. I need to clean and install the pistons/bottom end. Do the last bit of port work on the head then clean and assemble it. Clean up the intake and exhaust manifolds. Lengthen the wiring harness ~8 inches or so. I'm going to try and accomplish one of those each day after work. So hopefully I'm ready for install on Friday, Saturday at the latest. I still have to replace the rear fuel filter as well.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/26/14 09:51 AM

Summer softball league has started and tied me up a few times now. I finished porting out the head as far as I'm going to take it as well as the exhaust and intake manifold. I cleaned the carbon off the pistons as well.

Tonight I plan to clean up the intake, exhaust and head to paint first thing tomorrow morning as well as install the new piston rings on the pistons and fully assemble the head. The paint can dry while I start assembly of the bottom end. Hopefully I will have the engine together by the end of tomorrow and go to set it in the car on Saturday. I still need to lengthen the wiring harness so perhaps I'll do that tomorrow night.

I'm contemplating running all new fuel lines in the car from the back of the car to the engine bay. Move the fuel lines to the driver's side and move the high pressure fuel pump more rear wards, with the fuel pressure regulator and such all at the rear of the car and run a single fuel line to the front. I don't currently have a pass through fuel rail and it seems to be working fine.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/27/14 09:23 PM

I measured the ring gap this morning and found some interesting numbers. Measured it 1.5" from the top and measured it 4" from the top (3.53" stroke) and the taper changed the gaps about .0025". I didn't back calculate what the bore diameter difference was. BUT the big difference is between the old and new rings, or at least the one of each I checked. The old ring had a gap of .055" at the bottom of the cylinder and .057" at the top of the cylinder where as the new ring had .0185" at the bottom and .021" at the top. That is a huge difference. Doing the calcs for the 3.905" bore, at .004" per inch of bore for N/A applications, .0156" is the minimum gap recommended, and using .006" per inch for boosted applications I get .0234" for a minimum, so .021" will probably get me by if I put a turbo on this engine because the cast pistons will probably require keeping the boost down anyways. I pulled the recommended gap numbers from the Mahle website, whom the rings are made by.

The tighter ring gap ought to help out in the compression and blow-by departments.

Stuck the pistons in it and retouched up the paint on the intake and exhaust manifolds as well as the head. I cleaned up the oil pan and will re-paint it tomorrow as well as touch up the paint on the other stuff. Tomorrow I'll assemble the head and start the final assembly of the engine.

Still some ragged looking pistons, but hopefully bumping the compression up a half point or so, theoretically improving air flow in the head and tightening up the piston ring gaps net me some gains in horsepower and reduce overall oil consumption.


Pistons all in and oil pickup installed.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/27/14 10:48 PM

Looking great!

It should run much better with this freshened up engine.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/28/14 06:37 AM

Thanks!

I thought it ran pretty good before just leaked/used a lot of oil. Now I'm beginning to hope for real noticeable changes.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/28/14 05:20 PM

 Originally Posted By: TheSilverBuick
Thanks!

I thought it ran pretty good before just leaked/used a lot of oil. Now I'm beginning to hope for real noticeable changes.


Don't get your hopes up too high, it is still just a six. \:D

We don't build old inline 6's because it is the fastest thing available, right?

But once it's turbocharged, you will put on a serious hurt on those V-8's ;\) Turbocharged, EFI, intercooled , 292 truck
Like this one here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz2UaM3i-gQ

oh wait, wrong truck

this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk-AJEkkR9I ;\)

Relax Tlowe, jus having fun.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/28/14 07:04 PM

I have a big block Buick for quicker. Though if my turbo engine plans pan out the six will eventually surpass the Buick. For now I'll just take what I can get and the 4.56 gears for a bit more "fun".

Got the engine all together now. I need to put oil in and prime the system up still as well as install the fuel rail and throttle body. I found a couple of the upper injector o-rings cut or shaved, so I need to do some work on the fuel rail and further round out the entrance to the injector. The #4 injector that gave me the most problems was the worse. Eventually I got it so none of them leaked while running and driving, heck even held 20psi after the engine was shut off, but intermittently I'd have issues. I only had two new o-rings so I need to get a box of them tomorrow from NAPA.

I set the timing belt in place and if my math holds between the thicker head gasket and then shaving the head and block deck the cam is 0.045" closer to the crank and would retard the cam timing by approximately 2*, which is what I saw when I tightened everything down. I reset it from 2* retarded to 4* advanced.

I brought the wiring harness in the house. I'm going to set my card table up tonight with the soldering iron and lengthen the harness by about 8" while watching a movie so the plugs clear the back of the head.

I did more work after I took the pictures, the balancer and trigger wheel are on it now, as the cam timing isn't set in these pictures because I don't have the TDC mark that is on the balancer.

You can see the brass fitting I added below the red PVC tube that I'm going to hook a vacuum/boost gauge too to read the crankcase pressure. I may eventually hook a MAP sensor to it and datalog it with the MegaSquirt.




I touched up the paint on the belt cover as well.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/28/14 11:05 PM

Looking sharp.
Is that a Ford I.A.C.?

Wondering why the A.F.P.R. is tapped into the oil fill tube?

Once you put in a map sensor & data log it. It should be easier to tune. You will have a tracer cell to see where the changes need to be, correct?

Wondering what was your piston to wall clearance?

Keep it up.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/29/14 12:18 AM

Thanks. Yup, a Ford 2-wire IAC. Takes filtered air and sticks it right into the intake. Doesn't seem to work as well as the 4-wire IAC on my Skylark, it only seems to have 50% of the range it should have. I think I may have some setting goofed but haven't figured out what yet. It works good enough to get high idle when cold and does minimal work when the MegaSquirt is modifing ignition timing to target idle rpm.

That fuel pressure regulator is the external oil pressure regular to the lash adjuster galley. The hose going to the oil fill tube is the by pass line. While testing I reduced the feed line to 1/8" while maintaining a 3/8" drain to let it keep better pressure control and minimize oil bleed off the pump.

Not sure what there will be to adjust with the tune based on crankcase pressure.

I didn't measure the piston wall clearance.

I just finished lengthening the wiring harness so that is ready to go.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/29/14 04:56 PM

Got the engine in, bolted up the transmission, torque converter, etc. Finished all work under the car, which was my main goal today. Tomorrow I plan to install the alternator and radiator and probably hook up the fuel line and throttlebody. I forgot I need to replace the rear fuel filter at minimum and see if that was the fuel starvation issue. Then it will probably be Wednesday before I change the fuel filter, but then should be good to fire it up.

All set in. I wrapped the wiring harness in friction tape and it compacts down much nicer and fits between the fuel rail and cam housing now.


I spent a couple hours last night adding about ten inches or so to the wiring harness. About 30 wires, two solder joints and shrink wrapping each, it took a while. But now the connectors are very easy to access and currently are behind the transmission dipstick. They are just sitting there but I might try and get them clamped to the firewall some how. Before one plugged in right behind the head and it was a pain to reach. I was quite happy with how easily the harness plugged in . There are three plugs and four ground terminals.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/29/14 06:54 PM

It's nice & easy working on these inlines isn't it?
Talking about the actual engine.
Lots of room, easy to bolt in & take out.
What kind of fuel pump are you using?

Did you relocate your surge tank?

Forgot what size injectors are you using?

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/29/14 07:35 PM

It certainly isn't any harder. Being tucked up against the firewall has it's own challenges associated with it when trying to get the transmission bolted up.

A late 80's Ford fuel pump. It's currently mounted to the floor pan under the passenger's feet and it's easy to hear in the car, so I want to relocate it and the surge tank to the rear but I have not yet done it. I did purchase the steel tubing to make new fuel lines though. I want to get it up and running then plumb the new lines into place while still being able to drive it, then spend a day/afternoon moving the pump, regulator and surge tank to the back of the car. Minimize down time.

The injectors are 32 lb/hr. They are hand-me-down's from my Skylark when I upgraded it to 44 lb/hr when I got to the fringe of the 32's abilities. For the six, they should do quite well naturally aspirated and get me a few pounds of boost with a turbo. It might get me to 10-12 psi, but I'll really be watching the AFR (and EGT's?) if I haven't upgraded at that point.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/30/14 09:39 AM

What are you using for a surge tank?

For a while I used the stock 30LB injectors on my 4.3 V-6 & 21 psi, I ran out of injector, switched to 36 lb & running up to 25 psi & spraying methanol.
Injectors still too small. But it's sort of a good thing the heads are restrictive flowing 150 CFM w/a 1.94" intake.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/30/14 10:35 AM

Nothing fancy, a ~6 inch piece of 3/4" box tubing with four nipples welded to the side of it. The high pressure pump pick up is at the bottom and return to the gas tank at the very top, with the regulator return second from bottom and the lift pump inlet second from top. That way any air the lift pump sucks up when the pickup is uncovered when low on fuel goes to the top and is returned to the gas tank, and the lowest outlet is always covered in fuel for the high pressure pump.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/01/14 05:57 PM

Cooling and charging systems installed. I could probably fire it up right now, but to be safe I want to change the rear fuel filter and do a crank test with a timing light to make sure I don't have the cam sensor 180 out. It should be fine, but I rather check it. I have a softball game to go play now otherwise I'd be doing some of this work now.

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/02/14 07:09 PM

Fired the car up! And it was mostly good. Fired right up and idles well. I was getting noise out of the cam housing around cylinders 1 and 2, but it quieted up after a while so I think it just had air or something in the lash adjuster that needed to work itself out. I may need to adjust the oil pressure regulator. I'll be listening for it's return or any changes.

The other issue is it won't rev above 1,200rpm. The tach signal keeps dropping out. I re-adjusted the crank sensor and tightened up the clearances to the crank trigger, but it didn't change anything. I did a data log and all the inputs are reading clean, including the tach signal until it drops out. Tomorrow I'll adjust the tach signal filter pots on the MegaSquirt board and see if that clears it up. The crank and cam trigger signal log while cranking and idling are mint and clean, so its very likely to be the signal filter. Maybe that ~10" of wire I added was just enough to hiccup the signal?

But otherwise, I did get to hear it run and it fires up easy =D

Just going to get the tach signal sorted out, put the hood on and this weekend start on re-plumbing the fuel system.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/02/14 07:47 PM

Glad it's running.
You'll figure out the problem.

Did you notice there was no blow by?

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/02/14 07:54 PM

I had the vacuum pump turned on, and I thought about hooking up the vacuum/boost gauge (I just have the port capped at the moment) to check it out, but decided I'd wait until I was happy with the running of the engine (aka run above 1,200rpm). I'm 90% sure it's the signal filter adjustment.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/03/14 12:19 PM

Got it nailed down to the pull-up circuit on the crank trigger has something goofy going on. In my experience when it's not hooked up I get no rpm signal, but in testing with a jumper circuit I got it revving up just fine. It sounds good. Now I have to go and actually repair it.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/03/14 01:32 PM

Yup, looks like the solder joint in my after thought pull-up circuit resistor broke. Soldered back on, put it all back together and it's mint. Runs and sounds good. I put the hood back on and going to run to the hardware store for some odds and ends since they are not going to be open tomorrow then I'll wash the car and take a video or two.

The culprit.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/03/14 02:43 PM

Good job!
Yes, vids please.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/03/14 07:27 PM

Got a video, but almost didn't. The dang fuel problem cropped up again and stranded me on the side of the road three times before I got it back home. I richened it up quite a bit, probably from unknowingly at the time offsetting the fuel starvation issue, so I need to un-do those changes. I'm going to drop the fuel tank tomorrow and check out the pickup and start redoing the whole fuel system.

And the video. I wanted to do a burn out video, but after the fueling issue I didn't.
http://youtu.be/zV01a0cHNUA
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/04/14 10:30 AM

Cool

Thx.

MBHD
Posted by: Twisted6 I.I #3220

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/05/14 04:44 AM

Sounds good Soon you will have all the small bugs worked and You'll REALLY HAPPY \:\)
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/16/14 08:40 AM

Hey, we can view and post again!

Overhauled the fuel system. This should put an end to the fuel starvation issue for sure. I pulled the tank, and it is clean inside. I'm sure it's been replaced at some point in the car's past and the sending unit is certainly an aftermarket unit. The sock was black but relatively clean, but I removed it entirely anyways like I did on my Skylark. I moved the lift pump to the same level as the bottom of the gas tank (from the middle) and if that doesn't solve the issue, then it's the pump itself.

Made some pretty big changes by moving the pressure pump and surge tank to the rear of the car as well as all new fuel line on the driver's side (opposite side of the exhaust system and side the fuel rail is on). Despite not having a return line from the fuel rail it fires up quickly and so far runs pretty good. For reference, I've never had a return line from the fuel rail on this car. On to the pictures.

Here is the panel I made with all the fueling stuff on it. The lift pump on the bottom to the first filter, into the surge tank, then from the surge tank to the high pressure pump, through an EFI fuel filter, to the fuel pressure regulator then out to the front of the car or returned to the surge tank.


Mounted in the car. I utilized the lip on the gas tank as a support then two bolts through the trunk floor to secure it in place.


It's angled in place.


From the rear of the car. This union is my weeper. Just the top half, and it's the pipe that connects to the fuel pressure regulator. So I'll re-do the top half tomorrow.


Just following the brake line.


Along the outside of the subframe. Like OE, but on the driver's side.


Up into the engine bay. Ahead of the flywheel plane and a short piece of nylon fuel line to account for vibration.


My electric smog pump/crank case evacuation pump started blowing fuses, aka failing, so I swapped it out yesterday. I ammetered it and the old one was pulling 18amps when it was working (blowing a 25amp fuse) and the newly installed one is pulling 10 amps. I'm going to CA this weekend and going to hit a junkyard and see about pulling a mid-90's Ford Taurus electric smog pump as I've heard reports they have longer durability. Though the pump I removed had quite a bit of oil in it, so hopefully with the baffling I did there is less oil pulled into this one and longer service life.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/16/14 07:43 PM

Changed the oil, loaded up the trunk, and ready to head out of town tomorrow after work.

Also added some decals to please me.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/21/14 09:02 AM

This weekend I've fought with what appears to be a vapor lock issue.

I tried to drive the car to southern California, and I was barely 30 minutes outside of town when it lost fuel pressure. I went under the car and by pinching the return line to the fuel tank (not the regulator return line) the pressure would come right back. Let go and pressure would go away.

Early troubleshooting actually made it seem like a pump cavitation issue, particularly with the lift pump. I had installed a higher pressure TBI pump (~22psi) for my lift pump when the universal one quit working. So I put a clamp on the fuel line and motor'd on. It hiccupped a couple times then I got a solid 80+ mile stretch without issue and thought I had it kicked, but then it cropped up again. So 155 miles into my 475 mile drive south I opted to turn around and head home, which it drove the 155 miles home without a single issue, ARRRGGHHH! My girlfriend is accusing the car of being a homebody, lol.

So at that point, I figured it was a cavitation issue and the TBI pump needed some pressure to push against, so I made a restrictor tube from a piece of steel tubing with a 1/4" chunk of barbed brass fitting in the middle and installed it in the middle of the fuel tank return line, and the next day I drove out to Bonneville for a day trip test drive. It's ~130-140 miles each way and it was due to be 97F there to test for heat (and it was hot!), as it doesn't quite get warm enough here for proper testing. Well I made it out there, purr'ing like a kitten, drove to the end of the road at the Salt Flats, went back ate lunch, then as I was heading home I didn't even make it out of Wendover before it lost fuel pressure again. This time I tried pinching the lines and it wasn't coming back. So it is likely a vapor lock issue of some sort and my restrictor tube made it so when it vapor locks it vapor locks hard. Frick.

So the suggestions were to re-do the fuel system again to a "best practices" set up with the regulator at the end of the fuel rail and the return all the way back. In my mind though, I cannot see how this will make the fuel stay cooler as it would then take heat picked up in the fuel rail and bring it back to the tank as well as if I use the OE fuel line it crosses within and inch of the exhaust at the rear of the car to pick up more heat.

So I made two changes to the existing system. The first is I welded together a larger surge tank. Similar design but almost twice as tall. I put the high pressure pickup at the bottom with around 4" of distance before the next inlet. I've ran the inlet for the lift pump next inline, so the return from the regulator is above the lift pump inlet to try and push the returned fuel upwards and back towards the fuel tank return. Then I welded three "cooling" fins to the side of it. They hang off the side of the panel, past the gas tank and should pickup quite a bit of airflow. Theoretically helping cool the fuel in the surge tank. Then the other change I made was I installed a low pressure lift pump (essentially the same model pump that was on it to begin with) to reduce the pressure loading of the fuel (though I don't think 22psi adds much compressive heat).

The OHC purred like a kitten, still appears to be getting around 20mpg, oil pressure while cruising is now with 10w-40 oil is at the regulator spring limit of 55-60psi. It gets a little warmer than I'd like, but coolant temps didn't crest 195F and that is livable. The front crank seal appears to be leaking some oil, it doesn't have the blow by it had before (doesn't puff smoke out the oil fill tube with the cap off), the evac pump still pulls a fair amount of oil, so the baffles haven't changed a whole lot and I probably still need to work on getting the oil cap and dipstick tube sealed.

The smoke from the wild fires in Washington made the salt flats too hazy for a really great picture.

Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/21/14 09:13 AM

You could add one of these if you think your fuel is getting that hot.

http://www.proheader.com/image/pt151.gif

I think running a dead head of fuel pressure is not a good way for a fuel system to work IMO.

I ran a dead head fuel set-up on my Camaro for a bit, because I was too lazy to install a return line.

Forgot, did you advance the cam timing or retard, or the same cam timing since the last build?

MBHD
Posted by: strokersix

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/21/14 10:00 AM

Haha! I like your decal \:\)
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/21/14 10:07 AM

Almost all new cars in the last several years have gone to a dead head system. The end result is cooler fuel, particularly as the fuel tank gets low.

I'm not sure how running the fuel through the rail, picking up engine heat (rails are always hot after extended driving unless your intake is composite material) and back to the surge tank will make it cooler.

Doing some fuel consumption math, at 60mph and 20mpg, a gallon of fuel should be consumed every 20 minutes, a quart every 5 minutes. So the volume of fuel in my lines and surge tank should be far less than a quart. The fuel in the lines should be replaced with cool fuel from the tank every minute or two. It simply shouldn't be enough time to vapor lock, as my fuel consumption should be even quicker since I am driving faster than 60mph and getting 20mpg, and the surge tank fuel should be replaced constantly with unrestricted flow from the gas tank. Yet here I am I suppose... My Skylark returns hot fuel from the rails back to the surge tank just like this set up, and it's surge tank is under the hood, subjected to under hood temps on top of engine heated fuel rail fuel, and it doesn't have this problem. Uses the same high pressure fuel pump and exposed to more heat under the hood.

I have a motorcycle oil cooler on the shelf I eyeballed yesterday and thought about plumbing in, lol. Instead I welded cooling fins to the side of the tank.

**I forgot to answer about the cam. The cam is now set to an honest 4 advanced from stock. I am considering backing it down to stock. This is assuming it was ground correctly, which I forgot to check. D'oh!
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/21/14 10:13 AM

 Originally Posted By: strokersix
Haha! I like your decal \:\)


Thanks! I've only heard grumbling from 1 Pontiac guy that said that Pontiac had a RAM AIR VI V8 engine in development, but it was never released. Funny enough, I thought he was going to be the one that liked the idea the most because he has built several of these OHC engines and helped develop the spec's that are on my turbo cam.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 08/30/14 08:09 AM

Still haven't made any changes to the fuel system. I was daily driving it to work until about a week ago when I parked it in the barn because my second vacuum pump started popping fuses.

I ordered a diverter/check valve to weld to the exhaust to try and use an exhaust evac. I won't plumb the exhaust right to the block, I'll run it from the breather point of my catch can to try and keep oil out the exhaust. I'll take some vacuum measurements before switching all the way over, as I'm running a chambered muffler, which make kill it's function. Pass through mufflers apparently still let them work decently.

Then this was brought to my attention. An alternator with a vacuum pump attached to the backside. Though I don't know the volume of the pump or the amperage of the alternator, so more research needs to be done. I'm thinking volume will be too low and the few I've checked were a meager 70amps. I have a 140amp alternator on the car now. Everything running at 800rpm idle still has 12.5+v.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/110962027489?lpid=82

I'm also pulling my 8.5" rear end out of the dirt and into the shop to clean up and install new wheel bearings and seals for the Firebird. It was in my Skylark but it ate an axle when the wheel bearing failed. It has a GM limited slip carrier and 3.42 gears in it. I want the limited slip instead of the current spool. I'll run it a while with the 3.42 gears, but I expect I'll want to soon upgrade back to a 4-series gear.

I'm also going to prep the OE rallye rim for tires and go back to a 14" rim and slightly shorter tire. The front tires rub the inner fender when turning.

I really need to get on the fuel system, a friend of mine is planning on running a chassis dyno day in California in September and invited me to be there. I'd like to dyno this car. I'd install my 1bbl cam into a spare housing and see about swapping them at the event to get a back to back test run of the 4bbl "E" cam to the 1bb "C" cam.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 09/05/14 03:02 PM

Since the second electric LT1 smog pump has started to give me fits I figured I need a better solution. So I'm trying out an exhaust evac system. I would of liked to of welded it in at the merge between the two manifold outlets, but given the amount of oil this thing seems to pull I didn't want to risk fouling the O2 sensor, so I put it there. It definitely pulls a vacuum, but it doesn't seem like a very strong vacuum, but does "feel" similar to the electric smog pump, so it should be a break even deal at minimum for now. I may swap out the chambered Flowmaster muffler for a flow through type or glass pack.
[img]https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/h...3e66ba95a8e0a78[/img]

To further pull oil out of the line, I've replaced the breather on my catch can with the evac intake. I may re-install the PCV valve and tee it in after the catch can for an extra vacuum kick.
[img]https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/h...ea97b85d3f7e65b[/img]

****Facebook has jacked with the image URL's, they work if you click on them =/

Now I'm going to go swap out the front shocks and sway bar end link bushings. One of the front shocks has no bushing at all left in the lower mount.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 09/20/14 08:22 AM

I've tee'd in a PCV valve, but still wasn't happy with the performance, or rather lack of. I did some WOT blasts and it blew out a rubber plug that is on the oil fill tube and sent plenty of oil out the hole =/

So I'm re-doing the exhaust system and replaced the chambered flowmaster with a glass pack. Mostly because it's a flow through design and that it was $18 at the local parts store.

I have the exhaust system all tucked up under the car but I ran out of time to finish bolting up the collector to the manifold, re-installing the O2 sensor, etc. Minor stuff. Maybe today.

[img]https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hpho...amp;oe=5488417E[/img]

[img]https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hpho...amp;oe=5492B530[/img]

**Facebook still screwing my pictures =/
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/07/14 06:42 PM

Had some success today! Turns out the Mr. Gasket oil cap I got leaked around the crimp "seal" and that was killing the ability to pull any vacuum in the crankcase. So my solution? A quick trip to the hardware store.



Which resulted in plenty of crankcase vacuum! However, it seems to now generate a seal whistle at around 8inHg vacuum. D'oh. I'll figure that out later. It still generates pressure at WOT and low rpm. I haven't tried WOT and high rpm yet. Cruising down the highway at 60mph it was pulling decent vacuum. :thumbs: I have noticed a change to the oil pressure to the lash adjusters though, so I have to give more thought on what to think about that.


As a reminder, I'm taking a reading from the crankcase at the brass fitting under the red tube.



*I think I've figured out how to hack the screwed up FB picture links now.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/27/14 08:39 AM

I've been having log in problems again =/ And I don't think the pictures will show up, but they can be clicked on.

From Oct. 17th.
Quote:
Last weekend I drove the car to California and who ever called bad fuel pump wins. Despite it being purchased new earlier this year and only having three or so thousand miles on it, it is junk.

Made it 70 miles before it quit on me. Hot wiring the pumps on and looking at the clear filters, it was obvious the feed to the pump had fuel and the low pressure pump was circulating fuel as I expected it to be. Pinching the return line to the gas tank still caused it to pressure up to 43psi, and de-pressurize when I let go. Strange. So I zip tied the known good pump from the Skylark (been on there since 2011 and has probably 25,000+ miles on it (2 Drag Weeks even at 4,000 miles round trip each), and moved the lines over and it fired up and made the next ~1,200 miles without any fueling issues.

[img]https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/h...7943f62ff3d860d[/img]
(Oh, and always remember to put the car in park or set the parking brake! I pulled over there after coasting in neutral. I was under the car and it started to roll backwards on me! Yikes!)

The crankcase vacuum behaved weirdly, it seemed to have a tough time pulling/maintaining vacuum below 3inHg, but as soon as it hits that 3inHg it'd pull up to 6-10inHg fairly quickly and hang onto that vacuum through a variety of driving conditions. What had confused me the most though is, it'd pull nice vacuum climbing a hill, but as soon as I start coasting down the other side the vacuum completely goes away. The intake manifold vacuum (pcv valve) is double digits and it doesn't seem to be able to pull a vacuum on the unloaded or nearly unloaded engine. Just seemed strange. It pulls plenty of crankcase vacuum at idle, yet looses vacuum cresting and going down a hill. Then a friend told me that a pcv valve only passes vaccum at mid-level vacuum, not at high or low vacuum conditions, and suddenly what I had been seeing made sense.

So I stopped by the local Home Depot and picked up a brass fitting with the same dimensions as the PCV valve and swapped it in. Now vacuum in the crankcase mimic's manifold vacuum to a tee (is there a pun in there?). I have not noticed any drivability or idle changes with the swap.

I pull the vacuum through my catch can, so any oil drawn in should drop in the catch can's copper mesh "filter" I have in there, as well as using several baffles in the crank case to try and keep most the oil down. In the mean time though, I'm going to be closely watching my oil level for any changes. In "theory", under vacuum mist should drop out of suspension in the crankcase and overall mass transfer to the catch can should drop as well. I've noticed before, the more often the crankcase stayed under vacuum conditions the less oil and such accumulated in the catch can, the more often it was at atmospheric or pressure conditions the more oil would accumulate in the catch can.

It also takes about 4 seconds after shut down for the crankcase vacuum to bleed off. I may start looking for a high flow check valve and look at possibly attempting making my own vacuum relief valve to keep vacuum below 6-8inHg. It does make me a tad nervous seeing 15+inHg in the crankcase. I keep waiting for it to suck the oil pan gasket in =P

Also the dang electrical plug on the transmission has come loose. I'm not sure what even holds it into place, but it is dripping fluid and has a ton of play in the hole. So I guess I get to drop the trans pan and inspect/replace the plug.

It made the trip like a champ since the fuel pump swap. The oil consumption driving home was even acceptably low. I didn't add any in the 475 mile drive home, which the engine was sitting at basically 3,000rpm for the whole trip.

Heading to Vegas this morning. Traffic was very light, having left my Mom's house at 5:30am.
[img]https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/h...b94d5491b104f4f[/img]

Here are the trip stats. I averaged 19.3mpg.
[img]https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/h...3707b15d50b743c[/img]


The next round of changes after I fix the trans electrical plug is a small update to the exhaust evac setup and then swapping out the rear axle for a 8.5" with a true limited slip differential. For now it's parked in the garage until I have time to fix the trans leak.


And yesterday:
Quote:
I also forgot to mention the trans started shifting soft about the time I noticed it started leaking (or maybe the soft shifting is why I noticed it was leaking?). It wasn't much difference initially, but the drive home and since (I haven't driven it more than 5 miles since I got home from CA) the gear engagement and shifting had gotten quite soft. So I figured when I dropped the pan to change out the plug I may drop the valvebody as well to check it out. It was suggested a check ball may have debris keeping it from sealing, etc. But as soon as I dropped the pan and saw a bolt and washer in it, I figured I probably found the culprit.

Yup, the TCC solenoid was missing one bolt and the other was fairly loose. Guess I forgot to torque them down when I last messed with the valvebody. It was probably hemorrhaging fluid and pressure there. Or at least that is what I am hoping and that by bolting it back up and tightening the bolts the shift firmness comes back. There was a fair amount of black material coating the pan, but the fluid doesn't smell burnt.
[img]https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hpho...amp;oe=54F75F25[/img]

I've ordered a new plug thing to stop the leak (I broke two tabs removing it, it's crunchy) and a filter/gasket set. I think after I get it back together, if it is shifting well I'll swap out the rear axle for the 8.5" with 3.42 gears and a limited slip carrier. I'll probably be looking for a set of 4.56's for the 8.5" soon after =P

I was browsing E-bay and craigslist for a used but good 4L60e (as I was getting pessimistic about the 200-4r) and I may attempt to pick up a used one next time I leave town. We'll see.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/02/14 05:07 PM

Since I'm on a holding pattern for the transmission I've decided to play around with making a sheet metal intake for the car. Playing with PipeMax, it looks like a 3rd harmonic runner should be about 10", depending on how many rpm the engine is going to be spinning, but 12" seemed like a good middle of the road number. Doing some math, from the throat behind the valve to the where the intake flange bolts to had a taper of 6, so I just propagated that out 10" out from the flange, calculated out the area using the same height to width ratio of .875 so the ports at the end should be about the same dimension, just bigger.

So I started by making a wooden form of the port from a chunk of 4x4. I drew out the area on either end, lined across the sides for the taper then took progressively closer cuts with a sawzall. I was going to get it close and use my belt sander, but after wasting at least 2 hours looking for the damn sander I gave up and continued making closer cuts with the sawzall and then got the idea to stick a paint stripper disc on my 4.5" grinder and that did a pretty good job of removing material slowly and smoothing out the sawzall cuts. I made it a bit smaller than needed for wiggle room to account for the size of the metal.


I used a blue shop towel wrapped around the piece of wood and trimming it to size to make a pattern to cut the metal by since the taper wouldn't be a perfect rectangle.


Then using a series of C-Clamps and vice grips to hold the metal in place on block of wood while I used my work bench to wrap the metal around the block of wood. Some light massaging with a rubber hammer was involved and I managed to even get the seam to be on the bottom of the runner with a light overlap. I then gave it a quick tack weld to hold it together and knocked the wood out the end.


Some tapping and it slide right into the port.


Not overly fancy.


From the flange side.


And will it fit on the engine?? It's about an inch or so long here as the plenum end still needs to be cut and squared up. I'm contemplating ways to get a rounder bell shape on that end, but not 100% sure it's going to happen.



It's pretty thin gauge metal, so I intend to use small lengths of angle iron along the bottom of the runners to support the weight of the eventual plenum. I am going to get steel injector bungs and they will be tacked to the flange to hold them solidly in place.
Posted by: THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/03/14 06:51 PM

My suggestions -

Don't use angle iron on the runners. They will be amazingly strong when welded to a plenum. Plus angle iron will just look cah cah.

Do you have a router? Make a hardwood hammerform die with a routed quarter round over bit to shape the entryway. If you want to get really fancy make the runners protrude into the plenum by the distance of the radius.

The plenum should extand past the end runners a bit.
Try to elevate the runners so the airflow does not have to make a right angle turn in the plenum.


This one required five different hammerforms to get the shape I desired:

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/03/14 07:18 PM

What gauge steel are those runners? I'm using 22, which is pretty light weight. Using 1/2" or 3/4" angle iron on the bottoms, or even rearward corner, won't be overly noticeable. Or paint hides lots of things =P I figure I'll be building a second or third one and quite likely using a thicker gauge steel and each runner made from more than a single sheet of steel welded together.

No router and my belt sander is still MIA.

Pending how I make my plenum, I'm planning on making a bell shape of some sort for the runner entrance, IF I can sort out how to get it into the plenum. My original plan is to use a piece of straight pipe for the plenum, and getting the runner's bell into the runner hole would not be possible. I'm contemplating cutting the pipe in half and then figuring out how to seal it when merging the two halves back together, or I could weld it back together.... The plenum pipe, depending on ultimate length is going to huge compared to the engine displacement, 350-400 cubic inches. It has a 4" diameter.

I'm also contemplating making this first intake "attempt" one for the Buick 3.8 supercharger I have. Not 100% sold on that idea yet.

Posted by: THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/05/14 05:44 PM

The one pictured above was .060 aluminum. The one pictured here I made using mild steel. I think it was also 22 gage.

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/05/14 07:54 PM

I can see it does strengthen up. I took the pictures below with the tube just sitting on the runners, and the runners are not even welded or anything to the flanges.

I've been experimenting and practicing on hammering a curved entrance to the port. It'll never be perfect, but I'll see what I can do. My airflow friend says a 1/2" radius is as close to ideal as a curve would get for airflow, so it gives me something to shoot for, but I know it'll come up a bit short. I started with the trailer ball hitch (2-5/16") to round out the port, then it seems the easier to use the anvil to start shaping then finish up with a piece of round 3/4" pipe. I will have four more practice pieces before I have to actually try it out on a runner.

Going for a 1/2" radius. IMO, not terrible terrible, but not winning any awards either.


Three runners made up.


And everybody likes a good mock up. The tube is a bit far forward, and up, compared to where I intend on placing it.


I was surprised my cell phone camera flash actually makes it to the end of the port.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/17/14 02:26 PM

Got the Firebird back on the ground this last weekend. Installed the new transmission case plug and put the pan back on. The dang plug's pins are rotated 180 from the old one, so the one on my wiring harness won't plug in correctly, so now I need a new plug too *sigh*

Plus, it seems the transmission is permanently wounded from the TCC solenoid coming loose. It's all bolted back together, but the gear engagement and shifts are still very soft. Damn. I could probably purchase new friction and steel plates, etc and do another "quickie" rebuild on it this winter, or maybe I'll start searching out a 4L60e.

I also made another intake runner. Two more to go.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/07/14 05:49 PM

I finally caved and got a photobucket account, so hopefully my photo links start lasting a while. Unfortunately I cannot go back and edit my old posts here where the links are broken =/

This weekend I finished up the last two runners and then trimmed them to equal lengths. Now I can start working on the plenum setup.



Posted by: THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/08/14 07:25 AM

Originally Posted By: TheSilverBuick
I
I've been experimenting and practicing on hammering a curved entrance to the port. It'll never be perfect, but I'll see what I can do. My airflow friend says a 1/2" radius is as close to ideal as a curve would get for airflow, so it gives me something to shoot for, but I know it'll come up a bit short.
An easy way to get the entry radii near perfect is to make a hammer forming die. Look at the last runner to the right side of the picture. There is a radius hammerform die made from scrap 1" diameter tubing welded in the shape of the entry window. You can use it to hammer out all the runner entries the same:

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/08/14 08:14 AM

Hmm, I'll look at trying something like that.
Posted by: Twisted6 I.I #3220

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/08/14 04:31 PM

If use heat at the same time it will make the hammering a little easier and lessen the chance of ripping the metal. That is what I did when I made my own collectors and collector pipe.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/18/14 09:14 PM

I've just been driving the car the last two weeks. The transmission is shifting soft since the TCC solenoid came loose in the transmission. I think it toasted the clutches, so I think right after Christmas I'm going to pull the transmission out and pull it apart and stick the clutches I removed from it when I rebuilt it since they looked fairly good and didn't really have too many miles on them.

While I have it down I'll probably swap out the rear end for the 8.5" with 3.42 gears that I have. I'm over having a spool in the car, and the regular limited slip carrier will be nice. After I see what kind of mpg's it pulls I'll probably want a 4-series gear back in it, lol.

New front rotor's are in the mail, so I'm just a proportioning valve away from swapping the front drum brakes out.

Driving it yesterday. The weather here cannot make up its mind.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/29/14 10:53 AM

I've just been driving the car all month. Also the transmission has been shifting soft since the TCC solenoid came loose, so I'm guessing I toasted some clutches from pressure loss. Practically drives like a normally shifting transmission now despite the harsh shifting kit/holes I put in it.

After work today or tomorrow I plan on putting the Firebird up on jackstands in the barn to begin the transmission pull to see what is going on inside of it. With that, right before Christmas two front rotors showed up, so I can possibly also switch out to disc brakes while it's up in the air along with swapping out the rear axle for the 8.5" with 3.42 gears and an honest limited slip rear end. While I have the front and rear brakes apart, I'm going to look at adding a hall sensor to read the back side of the wheel studs to use as a vehicle speed sensor. Should only require drilling a hole in the dust shield and adjusting a threaded sensor with two nuts holding it place...

To shift gears a bit, I got a Raspberry Pi mini computer for Christmas and am going to attempt to make a digital display in the Firebird similar to what I have in the Skylark but not yet go to the extreme of replacing the dash cluster. This will be a round one so to speak. If it works out well then I will try to eventually expand to replacing the cluster with a digital display. The primary hangup is my inability to use Linux frown But, figure it's only a matter of time before I figure it out enough.



Goal one is to simply get it to start up and run Tuner Studio, from there I can expand on the idea.
What I am thinking of doing after I get it operational is getting a 7" touchscreen for it (they seem to be less than $75!?!?) and replacing the generic panel with the Arrowhead on it with a touchscreen displaying various engine vitals. Interestingly enough, when I requested quick keys to change the display layout in TunerStudio for the Skylark, the programmer also added screen swiping at that time to change display layouts when using touch screens. So "in theory" I can have various gauges on there, but simply reach over and swipe left or right to have different data show up, or gauges with different warning light thresholds, etc. And being rectangular, means a different layout than I am using in the Skylark smile



The panel is 2.5" by 4.5", but I don't see any issues with fitting a 7" screen back there, which I believe the dimensions are 3.9"x6.2". That would make the screen stick out approximately 3/4" a side in width and just over 3/4" top and bottom. Plenty of wiggle room. Mounting it firmly may require some creative work though.



The goal is to make a squared up version of what is in the Skylark!


So much to do!
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/29/14 03:37 PM

You will probably get the best mileage with the 3:42s

Should be much better than 4:56s' JMO

Spools are OK for track cars, on the street & trying to park it in a parking lot, forget it.


MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/30/14 08:38 AM

Yeah, if I'm getting 20mpg with the 4.56's, it should really be getting some mpg's with the 3.42's. But I expect it to not be as fun to drive frown Well, until at least the turbo is bolted on, then the 3.42's will probably be decent grin

I'm over the spool for sure. It will be nice to have an honest limited slip carrier back there.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/30/14 10:23 PM

Just curious what RPM you are turning when you are getting 20 MPG?
Do you have a turbo yet?

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/31/14 07:17 AM

2,700-3,000rpm. 200-4r, lock up converter and 27" tires.

Nope, haven't picked up a turbo yet. Every time I look at them and see all the various variables, I've walked away. But I'm really now getting at the point I need to focus on what I'm looking to accomplish and get a turbo to get there.

Preliminarily, I want a turbo that will support at least 600 flywheel horsepower (doesn't mean I'll quite get there), and looking at running twin-scroll with two 2" feed pipes, maybe 1-7/8". Then trying to decide what size intake piping, 2.5" or 3". I figure with reverse flow cooling, the intercooler, and possible methanol injection of going upwards around 20-24psi on the good short block and professionally ported head, assuming I can keep a head gasket in it.

I have been looking at various intercoolers though, as that will be the foundation of my front end plumbing, because I want to get a new radiator with an electric water pump attached to it, but I need the intercooler size first to make sure I can get inlet/outlet lines around the radiator.

I'm thinking of running a cooling system pressure sensor to watch for the head lifting or see plainly if the head gasket starts to go. I'm pretty sure I can make the MegaSquirt throw a "check engine" light if cooling pressure oscillates too quickly.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/31/14 06:06 PM

First project of the new years, pulling the transmission in the Firebird and going through it. I got the room closed up and a load of wood in the wood stove ready to heat the place up in the morning. It was 19F in there when I took the picture, burrr.....

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/01/15 10:06 PM

Pulled the transmission out and yanked it apart today. As I suspected the friction plates were toast. I haven't seen anything else out of place. I put most the trans back together using the friction plates and steels I pulled out of the transmission when I first rebuilt it back in February or so. I haven't put the valve body back on it yet, as I want to make sure it's cleaned out for sure.



The plates I pulled out of it on the left and the "old" ones I'm re-installing on the right. In another stack the friction plates looked cooked and the steels had hot spots. I believe this to be the result from when my TCC solenoid came loose and about fell out. I'm guessing hydraulic pressure dropped dramatically.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/02/15 06:45 PM

I made sure the valve body was definitely cleaned out. I found some directions online from a shift kit that talked about removing a spring from an upshift valve (said some transmissions have it, some do not..), so I removed the spring from mine. I took the opportunity to open up two holes in the valve body plate to the next size up while I had it apart. Now it's just a filter and gasket away from ready to go back in.

Since the transmission is on hold, I pulled the 8.2" axle with 4.56 gears on a spool, for an 8.5" with 3.42 gears and a standard limited slip carrier. Haven't done anything more from this picture though. One of the metal brake lines twisted and broke on removal, so I'll replace both on the axle. I forgot to get some gear oil, so I need to go to the parts store anyways.


I spent the rest of the time looking at relocating the TV cable from the throttle body to the firewall and directly off the gas pedal. Once I heard of some folks doing this I was interested because I'm using a universal cable and its maxed out on length and will only get worse with the intake I'm building. Putting it on the Firewall takes that worry out. I measured the pull of the cable on the transmission, and found the points on the firewall to gas pedal that give the same distance. It's just a notch below where the throttle cable goes.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/02/15 08:35 PM

I think there is a low dollar thing to do to get a firmer 4th gear shift in a servo spring change?
Might be confusing this w/a 700R4 servo?

Just going from memory.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/02/15 09:49 PM

I've installed the shift improver kit. The 4th gear shift is(was) pretty firm. Though realistically, the quality of the shift into 4th isn't a big deal because it typically doesn't happen when WOT.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/03/15 10:37 AM

Hmmm, w/456 gears I would think WOT shifts in 4th would happen all the time. Unless you did not like to floor it?

On my Syclone, I need to shift into 4th gear in the 1/4 mile, the trans does not like it (700R4) all stock with 3.42 gears & 26" tire.

MBHD
Posted by: intergrated j 78

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/03/15 12:44 PM

X2. A mere 60 mph in direct with the converter locked is 3400 rpm . A 5000 rpm 3-4 up shift would happen at 88 mph IF the converter was locked up, unlocked 3-4 would happen at a lower speed. One thing that has happened to me when I changed to a higher numerical gear ratio in the rear end the car felt slower even though I knew better. Has this happened to anyone else?
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/03/15 01:46 PM

I have not heard of that happening. It would need to be an extreme change for it to slow down.
For a car like yours going from 256 to 355 (forgot your gearing) or so I would think it would be faster.
What rear axle ratio was it before & what is the gear ratio now?

Some engines do like to run sort of tall gearing from the factory, like Ponchos 455's , Oldsmobile, 455's etc.
I think if you were to put 456 gears in those cars, they will be slower in the 1/4,,,, talking stock here.

I have seen my friends car go slower from using a Weiand "X" celerator manifold then switching to a Victor Jr SBC. .5 second difference in the 1/4. shocked

A loose/slushy torque converter usually will loose MPH, but could ET better.
The less slippage the better MPH

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/03/15 04:36 PM

I shift the car at 5,500rpm and haven't had it above 90mph in 3rd gear. I am curious about it's 1/4 mile time and mph.

However sticking the 3.42 gear in it will diminish that quite a bit, until I get tired of the 3.42s and stick a 4-series gear back in it, lol.

One of the reasons I like the 4.56 gears is because this car feels like a rocket ship driving it, like it could "almost" keep up with my 455 powered Skylark, but in reality it has zero ability to keep up the the Skylark. The Skylark has 3.89 gears, but I've ran it as low as 3.08's, and I did like the 3.42's in it, but it left a lot of ET on the table with the 3.42's because the rpm drop and crossing the 1/4 mile finish line at 4,800rpm in 4th instead of 5,800-6,000 rpm, basically waaaay under the max power band with the 3.42's. For 1/8 or 1/4 mile racing, always optimize the gear for the mph you expect to run to the red line of the engine. Automatics with good stall converters work the best, but I like rowing my own gears.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/04/15 06:16 PM

Just curious if that engine is actually making power to 5500 RPM?

I know GM says it made power to a certain RPM, but I do not think they made it at that kind of RPM, could be wrong, but I think the camshaft specs are kinda anemic. JMO

MBHD
Posted by: intergrated j 78

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/05/15 06:39 PM

I think that I need to clarify what I said in my last post. The car in question was a BBC Chevelle that I had decades ago. I changed gears from 3.31 to 3.73 and the car "felt" slower, even though I knew that it was quicker in the 1/4 mile,ect. Less of a feeling of being pushed back in the seat. Just wondered if this happened to anyone else. I'd be real curious how the Firebird feels with the new gears. Jay6155
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/05/15 06:58 PM

I would think going from 4:56's to 3:42's in his Firebird is going to make it slower with his current engine combo. But whenever he puts a turbo on it, it should be faster/quicker in the 1/4 w/3:42's.

I have 4:10's in my car right now eek & I will most likely use that until I change out my rear end.

Don't have the funds to get the rear end I want to put in it.

I think if I can get the car to hook up w/4:10's, it could be faster in the 1/8 mile, but would run out of RPM in the 1/4 mile I would think. I am speaking about when I get my turbocharged combo going.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/06/15 07:38 AM

I'll do a few 0-60 time tests with the 3.42's and see how it does with the 3.42's. It was just over 11 seconds with the 4.56's and right at the top of second gear.

I don't know what you expect to run in the 1/4 mph wise, but I figure the most this car will trap N/A mph wise is 95mph, which is 5,600 rpm in 3rd gear. Of course if the car is lighter than I think it could be faster. I'll probably get a set of used 4.11 gears for the 8.5" to run until the "built" turbo engine is installed and making real horsepower.

But until it runs down the 1/4 or is dyno'd, the power is speculative.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/06/15 04:49 PM

Those Gtech's & smart phone apps for estimating HP, 60 ft 1/8, 1/4 mile HP etc are pretty good.

I have a Belltronics Vector FX2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqaOOD8U5tE & it is pretty accurate. Timed my car on the street then went to a track & was pretty much dead on.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/07/15 07:12 AM

The 0-60 time I based on the datalogs and rpm at which the car should of been going 60mph(which I forgot to mention, the 0-60 times were above 6,000 feet elevation). I took some account for converter slip, but that shouldn't dramatically change the time, maybe a tenth of a second or so giving the rate of rpm climb in 2nd gear.

This weekend I'm going to see about fitting one of the wheels with a vehicle speed sensor. From that I should be able to accurately determine 0-60 and possibly even 1/8 and 1/4 mile times as there are distance calculators in the MegaSquirt software and datalogging software. Getting the VSS hooked up on my Skylark I've just started to delve into those functions of MegaSquirt. There are built in formula's to determine wind and rolling resistance as well as HP and TQ (as well as tripometer and mpg instant and average calculations), but again, I haven't spent the time yet to see how those features are set up and function.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/08/15 10:12 PM

FINALLY got the Raspberry Pi to bring up Tuner Studio. Its still a bit slow, but I think there is plenty of room for optimizing the startup of the Pi for smoother function. I'm going to poke around with optimizing the startup and system resources then work on getting it to remote desktop over to a netbook I have to test it out in the Firebird.

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/10/15 09:50 AM

I got the transmission back in the Firebird yesterday, but it didn't go as smoothly as planned when my transmission jack decided it wanted to bleed off now so became useless. I went around town seeing if any of the stores had a transmission jack adapter for a standard floor jack, but no luck. So I attempted to weld up some simple brackets, but really didn't have enough scrap metal on hand to make a good transmission holder and had one failed attempt to install the transmission with the modified jack cradle. Then I resorted to the simple board of wood on a floor jack like I had done before having a transmission jack and it worked like a charm. Making me wish I hadn't wasted 3 hours for an alternative solution when the simple one worked so well =/




The other thing I worked on was moving the TV cable from the throttle linkage to the gas pedal. I found a spot on the gas pedal where it moved the 1.5" from closed throttle to WOT, and mounted a bracket there. It actually required a bit of final adjusting down from my marked spot, but I checked it with the transmission pan off and am happy with the settings now.

I cut the TV bracket off the throttle bracket and welded a strip of medal to the bottom of it to make it angle down towards the gas pedal like the throttle cable does. Then used a simple self tapping screw to hold it in place. So the cable clips in just like it would at the throttle body/carb.


I welded a simple screw to the top of a cable clamp and clamped it to the gas pedal. By sliding it up and down the pedal as well as adjusting the cable tension, I got the adjustment where I am happy with it. The TV cable clip snaps nicely onto the screw head, and loosely pivots on it quite nicely. I greased it just to keep wear down. Hope it works....


Today I'll finish up the small stuff and then pull the front brakes off for a disc brake swap. Hopefully that goes smoothly....
Posted by: intergrated j 78

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/10/15 04:59 PM

I like what you did with the tv cable. That setup might be easier than brackets out on the engine. This could be good for people who want to try different carbs on the same engine. Jay 6155
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/11/15 02:12 PM

I heard about setting it up that way on a Buick board.

Yesterday I took it out for a test drive and it appeared my transmission work was in vain as it shifted the same. It seems to be good with the 3.42 gears (speedo might actually be accurate...), but the engine also had a mis-fire. So I needed to trouble shoot that before any more testing could be done.

Made this nifty modification to the top bolts so they are easier to install and remove.
[url="http://s42.photobucket.com/user/TheSilverBuick/media/Facebook/Firebird%202/10933787_10204886065605074_629223608550336789_n.jpg.html"][/url]

I was going to start on the disc brake swap, but I'm far less prepared than I thought I was. Missing basic things like brake hoses and caliper pins =P So that is on hold for at least another week while I gather the last few parts.

Working on the car today I fixed the miss-fire as well as made some improvements to the transmission. The miss was simple enough, I put the timing light on each plug wire and they were doing their job, got the laser temp gun out and cylinders 1 through 5 had around 200F exhaust manifold temps and number six was at 60F. Turned out the injector plug came loose. Soon as I pushed on it the engine smoothed right out. Probably came loose from messing with the TV cable near the firewall.

The transmission, I decided to hook up a pressure gauge to see how the hydraulic pressure of the system was doing as well as what the pressure rise was with throttle. I had measured 1.5" of travel on the throttle valve, but doing some internet reading last night it sounds like the best setups have around 1" of travel, referenced off WOT. So I slid the bracket down the pedal linkage and adjusted the cable accordingly. The pressures however are essentially mediocre. Despite the modifications to the transmission it just meets OE spec's for pressure, BUT in driving it, the shifts are snappy, the transmission downshifts nicely with throttle input, and the upshifts have no hesitation anymore! :thumbs: The speedometer now runs a tad slower than I'm actually going (was way faster), if I put 26" tires back on it, it might be spot on.

The lingering issues, is I would have expected more pressure out of the pump, but it caps out around 175-180psi, which if fine for stock, but I expected more. What really bothers me is going into reverse it doesn't hit into gear as fast and firmly as it had before. The hydraulic pressure is actually decent compared to the book spec, while at the same time pressure in L1 is a tad low which I think might have some shared hydraulic flow paths, which I'm going to look into. I got apparently too aggressive with the 3rd gear shift. It was a bit softer than the 1-2 shift before I had problems, so I upped the hole size and now it's pretty harsh regardless of throttle input. Oh well. With the 3.42 gears its waiting longer than necessary to shift into 3rd gear, and its likely from the modifications I made to the governor to make it shift later with the 4.56 gears. If I drop the pan again, I think I can stick a spring back in the governor and it might fix that. Otherwise, I think I can be happy with it for quite a while.

I'm actually quite surprised how much I am liking the 3.42 gears. I was thinking after the 4.56's that the car would drive like a dog, but its not bad at all. It doesn't quite pick the front end up as responsively as the 4.56 gears did, but it drives quite nice. It is ALSO quite nice not having the spool in the rear anymore! It should be interesting to see if my fuel economy goes up. I was getting right around 20mpg with the 4.56's.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/11/15 05:53 PM

That looks like a big torque converter.
I just got a used 4L80E transmission & man, that stock torque converter is damm heavy, so is that trans whew! eek

Is that a stock T.Q.200R4?, what does it stall to?

Some engines like a taller gear, they will just run better.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/11/15 06:34 PM

It's "rated" as a 2,500rpm stall, but the most I got out of it was around 1,700rpm. Need more torque =P

Yeah the 4L80's weigh a ton, as do their converters. That's why my final plans include a 4L60e because they are lighter than the 4L80's but are still electronically controlled and thus a more reliable overdrive than the 700 or 200.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/11/15 09:18 PM

You might get a little more higher flash stall w/the taller gears.

Guys have installed 4L80E trans that has replaced the stock 700R4 in there Syclones & Typhoons & have been very good swap for these vehicles.

There has been direct comparisons back to back with the 4L80E/700R4 swaps, the 4L80E trans did not make any Sy/Ty's any slower, even though the trans are heavier & having a taller first gear did not hurt performance.

Main thing they all gained was reliability.
When you have a vehicle weighing in at 3600 LBS Syclone, & 4000 LBS Typhoons, having all wheel drive, boost launching at minimum 360 ft lbs & 600+ ft lbs of torque, this is very hard on stock, & even built 700R4's.

For my Camaro, a turbo application, rear wheel drive, somewhat light, I just do not like the idea of having a 3:06 first gear, fearing it will be way too easy to blow the tires away, that is one reason I choose to use a 4L85E, plus , stock, they can take a lot more power/abuse over a 4L60E/4L65E.

They do make 4L60E taller gear sets, but having a trans like that will be a weak link for my application IMO.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/12/15 07:48 AM

The turbo LS guys, and naturally aspirated guys running 8's and 9's often pick up .5-1 in ET simply changing from a 4L80e to a TH400 or Powerglide. I know of at least a half dozen Drag Week folks that can attest to this. Weighing highway cruising rpm/speed against competitive ET's. There is a ton of HP tied up in the 4L80e, but it is definitely as strong as a bucket of rocks with very minimal work. The turbo LS guys just install a shift kit (valve body work only) in a stock 4L80e and consistently run dyno'd ~700HP through them and mid-9's.

I'm going to take my chances with a guy that advertises to the turbo LS guys his ability to build reliable 4L60/65e transmissions in 3,600lb cars with 1,200HP. So I'm going to get an "800HP" rated one from him for my hopefully 500-600HP L6.

I agree the 3.06 first gear is steeper than ideal, especially for the rpm drop, but if I plan the system out right, or work with the boost controller (megasquirt) I can have boost in first gear not come on full bore until upper rpm, or for what ever the traction can take, and then by the time it shifts and drops rpm the torque from the boost level is there to pull it back up. Plus, the 60e's overdrive ratio of .70 is better than the 80e's .80.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/12/15 09:33 PM

I am not looking to be the fastest inline Chevy 250. It will have a lock-up converter as well, = worse ET.
So a 4L85E trans should do what I need it to do.


The car will be for the street, drive on the freeway, go to car hops, Hot August nights etc.

In selecting for a trans, HP is not what kills transmissions, torque sure does though.
Instead of getting a 800 HP trans, you should tell the trans shops, what torque you will or are going to be putting out.

I looked for a low cost converter for my 700R4, Aprrox price $350, the shops advertisement said the one I was looking at was rated to 550 HP.
I had talked with them & told them my engine puts out 600 ft lbs of torque, but only made 396 HP.

So he had told me that 550HP converter will not hold up to the torque my stock engine puts out & recommended to get a more pricey converter, to the sum of $600, so I said thanks anyways, so I still have a stock converter for now.

MBHD
Posted by: intergrated j 78

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/15/15 04:49 PM

Why in a cyclone did the trans swap not hurt performance ? Is it because a turbo car or truck is more forgiving ie just make more boost down low to make up for the loss of gear ratio or the more even gear spacing make up for the loss of the 3.06 first gear? Jay 6155
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/15/15 05:15 PM

Originally Posted By: intergrated j 78
Why in a cyclone did the trans swap not hurt performance ? Is it because a turbo car or truck is more forgiving ie just make more boost down low to make up for the loss of gear ratio or the more even gear spacing make up for the loss of the 3.06 first gear? Jay 6155


I think if the Syclone had a N/A engine, the results might have been different? Not sure though.

Having a turbo definitely lets the truck push through 2nd gear pretty quick.

The one thing I do not like with the 700R4, is the gear spacing 1st to 2nd, it has a huge RPM drop. But since the Syclones & Typhoons has a lot of torque, it seems to work out just fine.

With my 97 Silverado equipped with the 4l60E trans, the RPMs drop a good amount going into 2nd & it seems a bit longer and lumbering along trying to reach 3rd gear. eek

I think if your engine is sort of weak when it comes to torque output, a 200R4 would be the better gearing to have.

There are companies that make the same ratio gear set as a 200R4 trans that you can install into a 700R4/4L60E/4L65E, so there might be some ET improvment when switching over to a better spaced gear set.

MBHD
Posted by: intergrated j 78

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/15/15 06:11 PM

Going from a 3.06 first to a 2.48 first is one heck of a change. I think that it would show up way more on a n/a engine like you said. I know one thing that the deep first gear works well when towing a load. Our trailblazer really uses the help of that 3.06 gear when getting a extra 6k of boat moving from a dead stop. By winding out first a little longer the drop to the 1.63'in second is not so bad. In second I can maintain 55-60'mph all day long going up hills. I would bet that simply,buying a 200-4r would be just as cheap as that gear set for the 700. Jay6155
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/18/15 09:00 PM

Shifting gears back to the Raspberry Pi. Because part of the boot time of the Pi is related to the complexity of the Tuner Studio cluster display I wanted to make one that is pertinent to what I'd like to see. Down the road I can make different variations to it as well as the screen I'm looking at getting is a touch screen and I should be able to simply swipe left and right to change to different pre-programmed layouts. Like a phone so to speak.

I super-imposed it onto a picture of the dash.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/21/15 07:21 PM

First test run with the raspberry pi as a car computer for a gauges. On this run its a bit laggy, but I do believe there is room in configurations for speed improvements. Plus this was a visual ran through a remote desktop view, which may introduce lag. I think this was successful enough to warrant purchasing a 7" screen for it.



A short video of the test run showing the current lag. A friend of mine is pretty sure it's the remote desktop causing the lag, and the lag won't be there with an actual monitor connected.
http://youtu.be/mJbFnaJXQ-Q
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/10/15 07:51 PM

I've been driving the Firebird to work and back everyday over the last few weeks.

A few updates.
I've got the Raspberry Pi and a 7" screen working, but have not yet made a power supply for the screen that will work in the car, so in car testing hasn't happened. Plus I still need to do the programming to auto start Tuner Studio.


Did some minor work to the Firebird last weekend. The cam housing seal behind the sprocket had been leaking for a while. It would also whistle when crankcase vacuum got above 10inHg**, so I decided to change out the seal yesterday. The old one was pretty crudded up.

I also dropped the trans pan and pulled the pressure regulator apart to check which spring I had in there. I "think" I may of had the reverse boost valve in backwards (it all falls out so fast when the clip is removed), but I now get a significant pressure jump in reverse, D2 and D1 that I didn't see before. It already has the "green" spring in it, which with the .500 boost valve should be getting me over 200psi. On my test drives it did spike up to 200psi a couple times, but generally hung around 140-160psi while driving (and 75psi at idle). The only other spring available is a "pink" spring that diesel 700-r4's got. I may go looking for one, I'm getting real good at dropping the pan and not spilling any fluid, but I have a feeling this trans is just on borrowed time. Time to start saving for a built 4L60e. I did install an electronic pressure sensor good to 300psi in the test port, so I'll wire that into the MegaSquirt so I can check the pressure via the laptop or when I get the Rpi installed I can have it displayed. Perhaps that'll give me some warning if the average pressures start trending downwards.

Here is the mess the seal was creating. The good news is it appears to be the only oil leak the engine has.


And a fresh seal installed. Simple job, only took about 15 minutes from pulling the car into the garage, pull the front apart, chisel a hole into the seal, pry it out, tap a new one in.


**I installed a check valve between the intake vacuum and crankcase and it seems to have kept the vacuum in the crankcase down to around 8inHg most the time, which was below the whistling threshold.

I worked on the intake manifold some as well. A welder I ain't =/ I need more practice for sure. It likely needed more heat, but it seemed anything higher than what I had it set at and it'd blow through the metal. Oh well, at least most the welds are on the bottom =D I'm going to run either some radiator solder or braze material over the welds to try and ensure they are air tight. I now need to figure out how I'm going to attach the plenum. I have a few ideas, but not settled on any particular one yet.

Needed more heat, but hopefully will get the job done.


Fortunately this is the visible side! =D
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/10/15 05:01 PM

Did some intake work this weekend. Truly testing my abilities (or show casing my lack of?), but as long as I can get the final product to hold vacuum and pressure I'll be happy with it. Plus a coat of paint covers a lot of sins, lol.

Also I didn't realize my error until I was mounting it up, but it appears I welded the last pair of runners upside down on the flange so they sit a tad lower, which has caused the plenum tube to angle downwards some. Not a critical flaw, nor do I think it'll even bother me once installed, just not squared up. On the positive side, it should allow more clearance for the throttle cable to come over the top of the runners from the firewall. Just tack'd together at the moment.


The tube is a fixed distance from the head, the front and rear ports are pretty much centered on the tube with the middle one slightly up of center. I've flared the ends and currently debating about how to handle the entrance. I see three options, 1) Leave it as it sits, 2) Weld pie shaped corners on, 3) Make a separate single pieced curved entrance to weld to the port pairings. I'm leaning between 1 & 3. I will probably try and give 3 a shot.


Needs plenty of clean up work on the entrance, but overall I'm satisfied with how it looks at this stage. It will be going on a ported head so the head lip seen there shouldn't be present on my other head. The other head is gasket matched, so I intend on doing the same on the intake if possible (shouldn't require much).


Also got these really slick steel injector bungs from CNC Dude Scott. The idea is to make a jig that will make it so the injectors will all be the same angle and use the same jig to drill the holes in the rail to make the rail fit easily. The issue I ran into with the stock intake was the injectors hit the throttle body/carb. This isn't the case, so I'm going to lay them over at least 45. I haven't decided how close to the flange I'm going to put them since I can't reasonably angle them at the back of the valve due to the ports pointing away from each other in the head.


This is how a friend of mine did it on his big block Ford intake and I plan on doing something similar.

Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/10/15 06:04 PM

You could add brazing rod & blend in a nice radius's with a hand porting tool.

The 90 degree angle of the port runners to the head is not too great of an entry.

I think you should have raised the top of the ports in the cyl head & at least had some sort of a better angle of the runners.
J.M.O.



MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/10/15 07:04 PM

I've been trying my hand at brazing, and will do so at least one or two more times, but I haven't been overly successful with it yet.

There is still going to be a step anyway you look at it. Either one ~90 or a Z with a step at the bottom and top causing flow interference/turbulence. Maybe next round.

In other news, I secured some Manley stainless steel valves, so odds are the head will come off one more time before the turbo.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/20/15 05:59 PM

I played with my intake some more today, working on a curved entrance to the runners. It was my third attempt, and I think I'll make two more and call it good. I'll add as much welding metal as I can to the gaps and then try and grind/polish/blend it down. Over all, I don't see it getting much better with my skill set. At the end of the day, I'll let the boost do the work =P





Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/20/15 07:28 PM

That is much much better. cool

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/21/15 03:52 PM

I finished making the other two. They need some finishing body work, and I'll weld in material on the cuts and try and blend them smooth after install.


I made the entrance to the first one a bit longer since its going to be fairly close to the throttle body. They are just hanging there, the middle one squares up when held in place.


To make them was fairly crude. Take a flat piece of metal, cut some lines in the middle and hammer away. I took a piece of pipe I had and cut it in half then welded it to bolt to clamp in the vise. Then found a socket in my spare socket drawer that fit nicely in it and started hammering away. I used my anvil to finish up the corners.





I've welded up almost all the gaps around the runners and the pipe now, so its mostly sealed. I have the most difficult part left, which is between the runners as it passes through the pipe wall left.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/23/15 08:17 PM

I struggled today with the intake. My welds have leaks in several places based on putting acetone on the welds and seeing where it bleeds through. I've attempted some brazing on the manifold today as well. I brazed up the areas between the runners where it goes through the tube fairly successfully, but when I attempted to braze up the MIG seams to seal them up, I didn't like the warping the metal was doing during the heating so I did not pursue it further and will cover the welds with epoxy before painting. I also attempted to use the brazing rod to fill in the openings on the port entry and over all failed miserably. So I MIG'd a bunch of metal all over the place and took a grinder too it. It's about as good as it'll get and soon be hidden, but reasonably functional.



Set the other end of the tube on it for a visual of what it'll look like in there.


Posted by: tlowe #1716

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/23/15 08:37 PM

It ain't pretty on the inside, but it will be functional. Keep it up!
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/23/15 10:08 PM

Originally Posted By: tlowe #1716
It ain't pretty on the inside,


How dare you!!!!! mad
laugh

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/27/15 11:27 AM

To get in on all these turbo recommendations going around I figured I'd ask for suggestions for my setup and goals.

I've been doing some research and have a rough idea of what I "think" I can use, but I've never actually bought a turbo and put it on an engine for practical experience.

Some guidelines, I expect to "grow" into the turbo as needed by changing and upgrading various parts of the engine after initial installation, but the general goal I'm going for is 600 flywheel horsepower, and peak around 5,500rpm with a slightly bored over 250" engine. A broad boost curve would be nice, but given the HP goal, I wouldn't expect boost to really come on down low, but if it can, great! I'm expecting to need around 20-24psi of boost to accomplish that goal.

Based on some estimations/calcs/scenerio's I've ran it appears around 21psi at 5,500rpm would get me to the goal and using a t4 flange, 70mm wheel with a ~.80 a/r turbo. I found one turbo with close specifications, but cannot find a compressor map for it, grrrr.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/27/15 04:12 PM

To get 600 HP, I would think you are going to have to spin more RPM than just 5500 RPM. Could be wrong, just thinking off the top of my head. Specs on your turbo camshaft?


If your camshaft will only make power to 5500 RPM, it sounds like you would be building a high torque engine & not so much a high HP engine. Cyl head flow capabilities.

Use as big a turbine wheel you can get away with, about an "S" trim from Turbonetics would be a good size, "Q" for quicker spool but more back pressure.

70-72 MM compressor wheel.

.84-.96 A/R for the turbine housing, depending on your goals & how much turbo lag is acceptable for you.
Split entry turbine housing.

Lots of variables when selecting a turbo, compression ratio, auto trans, manual,, you want peak boost @ what RPM,, daily driver, track car, street car, focused more for the street? etc etc.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/28/15 06:52 AM

It looks like I'm not too far out in left field then, as that is around what I expected to need, and given the air flow demand I expect the turbo to have some lag down low. I'm going to try and get a twin scroll turbo and if I do it will be plumbed in as such.

Ultimate goal is the drag strip, and it will be an automatic transmission. I have to go get the cam card for the duration and LSA numbers, but the lift is .460" and I expect my good head to flow around 220-230cfm at that lift. My current head is "probably" around 200cfm, but unless measured its just speculation. The tapered port tunnel ram intake ought to help as well.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/28/15 09:13 AM

You are not far off, but the intake you designed is more for higher torque numbers & peak HP numbers will be low.

I did not say too much because I thought you were making an intake for a N/A engine (which would be good), but not so much for turbocharging.

Having peak/great cyl head flow numbers will return you with high HP numbers.

Having a cylinder head such as our stock 2 valve heads will not make as high HP numbers but will give some good torque numbers when turbo or supercharged.

Just as an example, my V-6 4.3 cyl head flows 150ish CFM @ 28 inches with a 1.94" intake valve, = pretty bad, the camshaft is as anemic also (all stock), so when I chassis dynoed it, it made a peak of 604 FT lbs of torque but only 396 peak HP, @ 24-25 PSI of boost.
Track ET, 3600 LBS no driver, 12.0 @ only 108 MPH, that was when I dynoed @ 386 HP & 550 FT lbs, was running too lean at that time.
Not the fastest by any means, but the engine is still 100% original stock untouched.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/30/15 06:56 PM

I did the first in car test with the Raspberry Pi, and other than the expected slow boot up and the cursor in the way, the test was successful!

I need to solve the cursor issue and I still want to work on the boot up time, but I think this is a pretty good test of the proof of concept. I will probably try and make the desktop background black so it shouldn't flash so white on start up.

https://youtu.be/PuRptJNBIMA

As a reminder of what I'm ultimately going for.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/01/15 04:23 PM

Drove into Salt Lake City this morning (~250 miles). Not sure what fuel mileage it is getting yet as I haven't put gas in the car yet, but it seems like its going to be over 25mpg, despite driving 80mph for ~100+miles of the trip.

Flying by the Bonneville Salt Flats.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/02/15 06:20 PM

I would think it should get better mileage going from 4:56 gears to 3:42's
Plus you can cruise @ 80 MPH turn some lower RPM.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/05/15 07:07 PM

All is not as it seems it seems. After tallying up the numbers I'm getting the same 19mpg (13 around town) I was getting with the 4.56's =P Its the same story with the Skylark, I've tried a variety of gears from 3.08 to 3.89 and the car gets the same mpg. I'm guessing though the 80mph plus some pretty high winds offset any likely gains of a lower cruising rpm.

I'm going to try some different fueling strategies with the injection. I've switched it to finish injecting fuel just before the intake valve opens at lower rpm and throttle. I've been running only injecting fuel when the intake valve is open and as much as possible while the exhaust is closed. I also re-ran the compression tests, and the worse one is 12% off, but its always been that way (not surprising how crappy the bores and valves look), but I decided to take those numbers and put some minor fuel trims in each of the cylinders figuring if they are not all pulling the same amount of air they don't need the same amount of fuel. I'm tempted to wing in the ignition timing trims too. Its practice if nothing else.

I also noticed I had my TPSdot(sensitivity) set at a ridiculously high 120, so I lowered it to 20 and not surprisingly it got more zing off idle.

I'll do some datalogging this week going to work and see if I can further optimize the tune at cruising speeds.
Posted by: tlowe #1716

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/05/15 07:22 PM

How much timing are you running on the highway? What does the vacuum do when going 80?

Can you give your cam specs again and the calculated compression?

That mileage is a bit lower than I would expect.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/05/15 09:39 PM

Static compression is right at 8.3:1.

I didn't have the laptop hooked up to see what vacuum I was pulling, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was fairly low because the wind on the highway was stiff, which likely meant my timing was in the mid to high 30's. Again, since I didn't have the laptop open I don't have the AFR either. Cruising around 2,300-2,400rpm.

I don't have the @.050" numbers or necessarily the advertised numbers, just the published numbers by GM, which are likely at .006" lift. 244 duration on the intake and exhaust, 0.438" lift, and 108 LSA. The lobes have a fairly fast rate of opening by design.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/06/15 06:07 PM

Worked on the intake some more today. Still needs lots of finishing work, but it's progress! Thanks goes to CNC-Dude for the steel injector bungs that I will be able to weld into place.

First my template for drilling and eventually holding the injector bungs. The two ratchet straps and the claps working together held the angle iron in place surprisingly tight.


Drilled out the runners and fit the steel injector bungs. It took a little finishing grinding to get the shape needed to actually fit them in to place.


I will have to cut the angle iron up in a way that I can remove it after tack welding the bungs to the runners.


At a 45 angle the injector bungs fit very well. High quality work on the injector bungs. They are the perfect length.


More clean up work will need to be done after they are welded in. I may to a rough cut on the bungs before installing them to reduce the amount of grinding required in the port.




I also bought a bulk supply of the sealer I'm going to slather over all the welds =P
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/09/15 06:26 PM

Just to humor myself I decided to measure the volume of the chamber on the '66 1bbl head I modified to see what it is and to plug that number into my engine parameters. It came out to 65cc's and have 9.55:1 compression on my engine, which is about 1.25 more than it currently has. I'd have to work over the other chambers, do some porting, and possibly minor machine work for me to be happy enough with it to use. I do think I have some brand new OE valves for this head, and I probably would shim up the springs it came with. If I used a set of TRW LF2289 pistons and cut some small valve relief's in them, my compression would be a flat 9.0. So I think I may have a game plan for a "back up" engine. What I'm considering for my primary turbo engine is getting some forged flat top pistons and have some minor valve relief's cut into the top and that should net me 8.8:1 or so, which is good.

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/25/15 08:27 AM

Been side tracked on the intake because I pulled the engine out of my Buick for an oil pan and cam upgrade (as well as general clean up of it), but I have the Firebird washed up and going to take it on the Car Craft Anti-Tour to Morro Bay next weekend.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/29/15 06:37 AM

The wife and I are heading out for the Car Craft Anti-Tour later today. Going to take a leisurely drive to the mountains, then out to the coast before the start then up to Morro Bay for the car show there (part of the Anti-Tour). It'll be a a bit over 1,500 miles when all said and done. Hoping for a trouble free drive and a fun few days smile I wanted to visit the sailing rocks in Death Valley on the return, but it appears to be a ton of dirt road and actually more worrisome is running out of gas! Will have to check that off the bucket list another time.

Posted by: THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/29/15 07:29 AM

Why does Car Craft call it an "anti-tour"?
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/03/15 04:15 PM

Because its a lot less formal than Hot Rod's Power Tour. Often notice of where it is going is given only a month in advance (though I think now they've gone 4 times to Morro Bay...) and its on the west coast plus its significantly smaller than Hot Rod's Power Tour.

Well so much for a nice trip to the coast and back. Failed to make it to the event when the left front wheel bearing went out on me 380 miles from home. I tried having it changed in a small town, but the spindle was trashed, so I had my brother bring my truck and a u-haul trailer out and pick my wife and I up with the car. Ironically enough, last year on the Anti-Tour my Skylark trashed a front left wheel bearing too, but in that case the spindle was just fine and I changed it out on the road. Moral of the story is I'm now going to be pulling the bearings apart for inspection at least annually! To add insult to injury, I have a complete disc brake conversion kit ready, new wheel bearings and all, that I just hadn't had time to swap on. D'oh!

At least I break down in scenic locations smile


Here is a shot of what I saw when I pulled the wheel off =/


Once I realized it needed a tow truck, and the tow truck was about 2 hours out, the wife and I had a wine and cheese picnic along the side of the road. Hey, figured I wouldn't be driving for at least 3 hours =P


Got back home last night so did the disc brake swap today.




I didn't change the master cylinder or porportioning valve, so it may need a little work, but I have a nice firm pedal and it doesn't nose dive. The only real issue is during a panic stop the rears lock up before the front, so it should be addressed eventually. I'm glad to have it back on the road already.
Posted by: THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/03/15 04:56 PM

Way to weather the storm.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/07/15 01:19 PM

Wow, been a month since I last updated this. Just been uneventfully driving the car to work daily. I've been too distracted with my Skylark's engine to progress any further on the intake manifold. However, the next town over (90 miles to the west) is having a Run Whatcha Brung event at their airport on June 20th and I'm going to try and go. I work that day, but am going to ask for it off to take the Firebird and see what it can do. I'm told it may even be a full 1/4 mile. So looking forward to that. Maybe in the next week I'll drive to the next town south of here (25 miles) to the public truck scale they have and weigh the car.

A picture of the current distraction. I'm actually waiting for a new cam to arrive, so it's not really bolted together yet.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/07/15 02:13 PM

What was wrong with the Olds engine?
Aluminum heads, what do those flow?
High RPM manifold?

I think your Firebird will be kinda heavy.
The Firebird hood alone is way, way heavier than my standard 69 Camaro hood.

I know my friends 69 Firebird weighed about 3800 + LBS 400 & TH400 trans.

I'll just throw out an ET guess for the Bird, 17.9 in the 1/4.

MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/07/15 07:55 PM

My Skylark with pictured Buick engine, A/C, full dual exhaust, interior (stock bench seat,etc), heavy steel wheels, etc. weighed in at 3,650lbs. When jacking up the Firebird it feels lighter, no A/C, half the exhaust, smaller/lighter interior pieces, lighter aftermarket rims, etc. The transmission is the only marginally heavier thing than the Skylark. I wouldn't be surprised to see 3,300lbs.

I had a clutch pressure plate/flywheel issue, and decided to change the cam since I pulled the engine for the clutch/flywheel issue.

I have no idea what it'll run, but I'm sure it feels a lot faster than it actually is, lol.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/07/15 08:02 PM

It's a 462cid Buick. The heads flow around 315cfm at .550" lift, which matches the cam well for the rpm I run it at.

I need to trim the intake gaskets some.


Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/12/15 09:55 PM

3180lbs! Whohoo! Will likely only go up from there though. The turbo system will add weight, an eventual 9" rear will add weight, and a hopefully needed then cage will add weight as well.



It was a nice drive out there, stopped and ate at the road side cafe next to the scale.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/20/15 08:40 PM

Drove the car 90 miles to Eureka, ran down the track 8 times, and drove home without any hiccup and calling that a win. The car was quite slow, but got some good data running down the track.

The engine seemed to like 36 timing, it slowed down at 38 and 34, liked to shift at 5,200rpm and slowed down when trying to wind it up to ~5,600rpm, and it liked about 40% throttle at 1,600rpm at the line for the best 60ft. I ran it around 13.0 AFR as best I could across the board. I had one lean pop running a bit leaner than that, and started as rich as 11.0 when I got there and progressively leaned it out.

The plan I followed was, first three passes I adjusted the shift point RPM with a bit of leaning it out, leaving timing at 36, the next two passes I leaned it out incrementally, one more with more rpm (and slowed down), then tried 2 more, then 2 less timing and both slowed down.

So the numbers.
Eureka Airport
Elevation: 5,954 ft
Temperature ~93F
Density Altitude according to the Airport computer: 9,100 ft.

My best ET and MPH were on the same run at 18.345 seconds at 77.13 mph with a 2.095 60ft. My best 60ft was 1.983 on a different run. After my third run, I really wanted to hit that 17.9 =P But I think that 9,100 foot air put a stop to that =P

Extrapolating from the Wallace Racing calculators I get a corrected 16.23 seconds at 86.65 mph, for a corrected 174.54 HP, which is about spot on for the low compression 1bbl engine's OEM rating.

I'm going to re-look at the cam timing and may even stick the slightly smaller 1bbl cam back on the engine as it could be a better match for the compression.

In any case, I have a successful day going down the track and have a baseline to start with! And that nearly 10,000 foot air sucks!



Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/20/15 10:22 PM

That 1.9 60 ft is not bad.
Dang, my ET estimate was close. laugh

Did you get to see how high your converter would flash stall to?

Glad to hear it went well on your day @ the track & the drive there & back.

I forgot if you had milled the head to get some compression out of it or is it still close to a 1 bbl engine compression ratio?


MBHD
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/21/15 06:49 AM

Rather I stalled it or flashed it with just the gas pedal it, just shy of 1,700rpm is all it'd get. Right around 1,680rpm on the stall speed. It launched better stalled up with about 40% throttle to keep air speed up. It'd just barely chirp the tires when I let off the brake on launch.

Even with all the milling the compression is still only a measured 8.37:1.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/11/15 08:38 AM

Drag racing the Skylark was a success and now, other than a few minor maintenance type things to do on the Skylark I can get back to this.

This weekend I drove the car 250 to Las Vegas and Tuesday it should make it home. It appears to be getting just over 25mpg when I stuck to 70-75mph.

Its pretty warm but did pretty good over all.


Finally got the Raspberry Pi to work as intended and not blank the screen after ten minutes. Crap linux programming I say... So I may actually be ready to put it behind the dash now as I finally solved the last issue I was having with it.



I'm going to be down on disposable funds for a few months or so, so I started eyeing the M-30 supercharger I have on the shelf again. Since it may be another six or more months before I can purchase a turbo, intercooler, etc, I'm looking at finishing up the intake manifold I started, but also possibly throwing together an adapter to bolt the supercharger to that will bolt to the stock manifold. I've looked at it before, and to get the belts to line up it's going to be ungainly looking, but at this point I want it on there.

I have the M-30 unit, which is the earlier, smaller, 3800 series engine one. I've removed the serpentine pulley from the supercharger and am looking at bolting on a dual groove alternator pulley to it, which is likely a smaller diameter than the stock pulley to overdrive it a bit more, plus I think the OE crank pulley is a tad larger than the 3800 crank pulley to overdrive it a bit more. I think in stock applications they were good for 12psi of boost (the later ones definitely got 14+psi), but if I can get 6-10psi I'd be pretty happy with it. I may have some belt wrap issues, meaning both the alternator and supercharger may not have enough belt traction, but I have some ideas to address that if its the case. Running two v-belts will help, but it may need more help. Should be interesting if I can get this to work.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/14/15 04:30 PM

The car made it to Las Vegas and back without a hiccup. Around 550 miles round trip. I haven't filled it up since I got home, but it got a bit over 25mpg driving down there, but that is only a one tank/leg average.

The car got a part in our wedding. The wife insisted!


I was driven up to the aisle.


She was brought in with only ONE horsepower =P




Afterwards, even the car appeared to have a hangover as my brother who drove us back to the hotel left the key in the accessory position and killed the battery, so I needed to get a jump start.


Funny enough, someone left a post-it note on the driver's window saying "Congratulations" and two times going out to the car I found people standing next to it looking in, including a pair of ladies that appeared to be in their 70's! =D
Posted by: Beater of the Pack

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/14/15 05:59 PM

Great, It looks good. There is a lot of road out there to enjoy it on. cool
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/14/15 06:28 PM

Certainly lots of road out there.

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/18/15 03:09 PM

Now that Drag Week and the wedding planning are over I can get back to this project. I'll get pictures later, but today I started welding in the injector bungs on the intake manifold I'm building. It feels good to be making progress on it again smile

On a separate thought, I want to get rid of the exhaust cross over in the exhaust manifold. I've looked at a few ideas, from filling the passage with aluminum or JB Weld like epoxy to cutting out the cross over and welding in some block off plates. And I've taken the first step towards the last option.

I have an old Buick 455 exhaust manifold that I had practiced drilling holes in cast iron and tapping holes in cast iron (for the EFI bungs and possible EGT sensors). So I beveled the edges of the hole and cut a piece off exhaust tubing out to patch it with. I then turned the oven I have in the barn to 500F broil and placed the exhaust manifold in there for a couple hours.


Using a laser temp gun, the manifold was around 400F inside and out when I removed it. I set the welder to the thickness of the block off plate and welded about a 1/2" at a time, going back and fourth. Once I was satisfied with it, I put the manifold back in the oven and turned the oven to 200F for about 2 hours, then turned it off and left it in there over night. The next day I pulled it out, and think it'll do just fine to hole exhaust gases back.




One of the cross over passages. I'll run a grinder around the edges to get them clean, then cut a piece of metal out to size to plug it. Once welded in, I'll probably pour a bit of exhaust mend epoxy or JB Weld over the patch to ensure it is sealed.
Posted by: tlowe #1716

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/19/15 07:00 AM

Fun to see you involved your car with the wedding. She definitely knows what to expect from you.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/19/15 08:21 AM

Yeah it was her idea. And after riding shotgun in the Skylark for 4,320 miles in 13 days for Drag Week, she toughed out long and hot drives like a champ so good to go for the long haul smile

Back on subject, I'll get pictures of the welded in injector bungs and any work I do to it today.





Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/19/15 03:48 PM

My "RTV" method of welding for the injector bungs. The trouble I had was the same problem I had the welding the rest of it, which was blowing through the thin metal. So I what I eventually did was dial the heat and feed way down and lay a bead on the thin metal, then went back over it with more power, effectively welding the weld to the bung, then stacked it, and then turned the heat up some more and stacked it again.... However I think I learned what setting would work well the next time I weld this thin metal.

CNCDude Scott made the injector bungs up and they are mint. They weld nicely and cut nicely as well.

I still have to do some finishing grinding/polishing on the inside of the ports, but then will give it a coat of fuel resistant sealant and then paint will make all the flaws go away smile



Finishing work still required.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/30/15 04:21 PM

Winter upgrading time. I removed the intake and exhaust manifolds this last weekend and I finally bolted the new intake to the engine in the car for a test fit. There was a slight interference with some brake lines by the master cylinder, but putting a slight taper on the tube, reducing the diameter by about 1/2" in the rear, gave ample clearance. I had contemplated tapering the tube some to begin with, but this just gave a physical need to. The throttle body lands right about where I wanted it to so I'm happy with that. I'll put a 90 fitting on it downwards so I can put an air filter on it until I get an intercooler installed (with a turbo).





Then I made the big leap of cutting up the exhaust manifold and blocking the exhaust cross over. If I get a twin-scroll turbo I will try and plumb it in front and back.

Marked out where I wanted to cut. Turned out to be a larger pain in the rear than I thought it would be as I wanted to keep the two halves connected still so they'd line up on the ports from the two end bolts. The metal is also quite thick in parts of these areas.


I ground down the top of the remaining part of the heat cross over so if I go back to the stock intake manifold it would not be touching the intake at all. As I said, turned out to be a tougher cutting process than I anticipated.


I cut, heated, hammered and trimmed the patches.


Then because my welding is horrible my final shot is after I painted it =P I heated the manifold up in an oven to ~450F, while also leaving the metal patches on my wood stove, so every thing was quite toasty while welding. Even the welding gloves were at their thermal limits. I hammer peened the welds after welding short sections. After the welding was done I put the manifold back in the oven and incrementally lowered the temperature over a couple hours and then let the manifold cool in the oven. Crossing my fingers it all holds together! If I have a little exhaust leak here or there I'll put some "exhaust weld" epoxy on it.
Posted by: tlowe #1716

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/02/15 04:25 PM

Nice job, keep the updates coming.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 12/11/15 05:40 PM

Did some more work on the intake manifold yesterday and today. Getting closer. I welded on a plate to the back side and the throttle body mounting flange made of 3/16" steel on the front. Not seen in the pictures are three 3/8th NPT threaded pipe/bungs welded to the bottom side of the outer shell that I can thread different sized nipples on to use as vacuum ports as needed. Tomorrow I hope to cut and drill out the fuel rail so I can make the fuel rail hold downs. After that a coating of epoxy over the welds and then paint smile

One thing now with the laid over fuel injectors is the fuel rail won't interfere with the OE water outlet if I decide to go back to the stock water pump system it'll work.


Cut and drilled the flange for a nice fit with the throttle body I have.


I would of liked more plenum volume, but this is what I have to work with on this version. I welded and formed a small piece of tin on the left behind the throttle body to try and keep the air flow from hitting the flat side of the first runner.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/02/16 10:59 AM

Got the final batch of steel injector bungs from CNC-Dude Scott, so now I have enough to make at least two more intake manifolds as my R&D continues. Thanks Scott!
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/02/16 11:16 AM

Glad to help out Randal! Your project looks like its coming together nicely. Keep up the great fabrication work and keep us posted how the intakes work out.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/03/16 12:07 PM

Hoping to get back to this on Wednesday or Thursday. Traveled out to North Carolina for Christmas and been doing home and weather projects. Plus with the sub-zero temps lately, it just takes too long to heat the shop up to a comfortable level, but I'm going to make a go at it anyways.

I have to drill the fuel rail, add fittings (my existing fuel line should connect right up), make something to hold the rail down, then start the epoxy coating, which could be interesting depending on temperature. I may be using my barn oven.

I picked up a Vizier engine book last week, so perhaps my next intake round will be a tad different (not to mention porting the head). I certainly have learned quite a bit on this one.
Posted by: lowboygmc

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/03/16 12:43 PM

Keep it up Randal can't wait to see how it comes out just took the pieces for my intake to the guy who's gunna tig Weld them for me old cat was welding for nasal doing lunar modual bases back in the hehe day can'take wait to get mind running
Posted by: strokersix

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/05/16 11:58 AM

I like this project. Keep it up!

292 crank should drop right in to the OHC. No worries about camshaft clearances. Still need to watch the counterweight to wristpin clearance but that is easier to deal with.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/05/16 03:15 PM

A friend of mine gave me a cast 292 crank so I could test fit it. My concerns were around finding the appropriate rod and piston that would fit, with some concern around the rod angle. A later concern is, since I'm so cam limited, to around 0.460" lift, is how well can the engine take advantage of the extra displacement without more cam?

The 292 crank on the left compared to the stock 250 crank on the right.


The 292 crank sitting in the block. It didn't hit anything, but was dang close and sure looked like some clearing for the rods would be necessary.




It will likely be a long long time before I go down the road of putting a 292 crank in, but you can be assured I looked into it =)
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/05/16 03:17 PM

And here is a photo of the stock 250 piston clearance on the stock 250 crank. Pretty dang close!

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/06/16 02:00 PM

Made the fuel rail and hold downs today. Same method as last time, ran a 3/8" pilot hole into the fuel passage, followed up with the 17/32" bit but stopping a bit short of the fuel passage. Then used a dremel to bevel the opening followed by some fine grit (400?) sand paper, red scotch brite then green scotch brite. Tapped threads into the ends for the fuel fittings and then cleaned it and cleaned it.



Posted by: strokersix

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/06/16 02:49 PM

A TIG welder would be a great addition to your arsenal smile
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/06/16 04:04 PM

Randal, i've seen on your other forum that a few guys have done the 292 stroker Pontiac OHC before with great results, so you shouldn't have any problems. I'm sure if you find their posts it will list all the details needed to do it in the OHC engine.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/09/16 03:42 PM

I'd probably be even worse at TIG welding. I've seen a few folks say they have a bored and stroked out 5L L6 using the 292 crank, but really haven't seen any details on it outside of them using Chevy crank balancers.

I had to cut a bunch more material out of the exhaust manifold's heat cross over. I'm glad I had already started to do so because it turns out it would have been required. But I bolted it all together on the head and cleared up any interference's, so now the only place the exhaust manifold is connected with the intake manifold is at the head and hold down bolts. Now the next step is giving the welds a coat of epoxy, then a nice coating of Pontiac Blue engine paint.

Posted by: lowboygmc

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/10/16 10:58 AM

Keep it up buddy it looks like it's coming along nicely

Can't wait to see it finished
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/11/16 01:59 PM

Gave the intake a nice coating of Pontiac Blue. Now that I have it painted, I'm thinking of making a red trim piece in red to lay over the weld just to pretty it up and match the cam housing.

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/21/16 06:54 AM

Getting closer! Installed the intake and exhaust back on the engine yesterday. There is a small list of things I need to do before I can fire it up. The fuel line may need to be slightly changed for the new fuel rail location, the throttle cable is too short so I need a new one, the TPS and possibly the IAC wiring needs to be extended and I need to figure out what I'm going to do for an air filter. Down the road I'll likely make changes to the injector wiring harness.

I've hose clamped a piece of aluminum trim to the top of the intake to help hide and draw eyes away from my welding, lol.


Posted by: Xea I.I. #5390

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/21/16 02:16 PM

Looking good!! What is the injector off of?
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/21/16 05:38 PM

Thanks! The injectors are generic Accel 36lb/hr ones from Summit Racing.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/21/16 06:42 PM

Conduit clamps?
Sorry but Looking really GHETTO
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/21/16 06:51 PM

Sometimes function over form prevails.
Posted by: Xea I.I. #5390

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/21/16 07:55 PM

Sorry, should have said throttle body. What is it from?
Posted by: lowboygmc

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/22/16 06:27 AM

I like the color dust holders it works and that's what counts pluses it's hotrod din buddy making s*** work and advancing from original is what it's all about
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 01/22/16 06:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Xea I.I. #5390
Sorry, should have said throttle body. What is it from?


I'd have to go look at the box for the exact size, but it's for a late-80's early 90's 5.0L Ford engine. It was given to me, new in the box, a year or two ago by a friend when when I proposed building this intake.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/03/16 08:33 AM

Contacted the E-bay shop and a throttle cable should be in the mail, but I'm going out of town for the next two weeks so no progress will be done for a while when it gets here. Being as it's still -12F outside at 8:30am, I'm less than inclined to go out to the shop to work today as well. But the elbow piece for my air filter setup arrived yesterday. Just need some clamps and it should be good to go. I trimmed about 1/4" off the throttle body end and it clears both the radiator and radiator hose without issue. Gravity is pulling it down a bit in this picture but clears everything fine when seated properly.

Posted by: lowboygmc

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/03/16 11:22 AM

Nice looking good!

Hey is that your video on line of the dakota digital guages with the data streaming in it?
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/03/16 01:50 PM

No? I don't have a dakota digital gauge set up.

In the background of things I've been working on trying to make a reasonable attempt at checking the flow of these heads using my spare block and David Vizard's shop vac setup (http://www.musclecardiy.com/cylinder-heads/build-flow-bench-port-flow-testing-cylinder-heads-part-3/) and if I get reasonably repeatably result I'll see about having a cfm calibration plate made, but in the mean time I've wanted to work on a proof of concept as well as see if the $8 USB camera would work well enough to "watch" wet flow. Today's tests were interesting to say the least!

I'm still trying to figure out how to best seal the bottom of the chamber with the shop vac. My first, and only, test so far was with a cut up nerf foot ball with a hole sawed hole in the middle for the shop vac fitting. Because I wasn't looking for specific repeatable numbers yet I just stuck the camera cord through the hole too. When I got it reasonably positioned and turning the vacuum on I learned a few things. One it simply sucked the whole thing to the top of the chamber and two the test valve springs I am using are not strong enough and both the intake and exhaust valves are pulled off their seats. So I need stronger springs and to work on the seal still. The second thing I learned is the camera isn't quite good enough to see how water mist flows into the chamber when spraying water at the port. And the third thing I learned is when the shop is 10F, and the block and head probably is too, ice builds up! LOL! I'll call this a "COLD flow test" lol.


The test set up.


Now the ice may have been as much a blessing as a curse as it has there frozen the water (fuel?) spray direction/pattern.


So you can see why I opened it up on the sparkplug side of the intake valves (old photo).


I found it interesting that there was no ice build up on the cylinder wall side of the intake port or chamber. Basically confirms everything I've read.






A better view of the sparkplug. The ice had built up enough to keep the intake valve from seating.


I tried taking some video's of the water flow, but all of them have water hitting the camera and blurring out (possibly icing up the camera..). So I decided to put a cam housing on with a 1bbl cam in it and video the valve action. The chamber is already iced over but it's still kind of neat to see. The overlap between the intake and exhaust is very minimal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8FAxhOTcx0


I've built a 8ft tall manometer with $15 worth of tubing and measuring tape and a spare piece 8ft white baseboard trim, but I won't put water in it until I'm sure of the rest of the test rig AND I know it won't freeze up!
Posted by: lowboygmc

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/03/16 05:40 PM

https://youtu.be/RGROrwcl-LY
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/04/16 06:17 AM

Ah, yes that is me. Its a car computer and a display behind the dash running Megasquirt's Tunerstudio software.
Posted by: strokersix

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/04/16 06:33 AM

I appreciate your approach. Learn by doing. Good work.
Posted by: lowboygmc

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/08/16 07:26 AM

How did you do that that is so freaking cool man i'd love to do that
Posted by: lowboygmc

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/08/16 07:26 AM

How did you do that that is so freaking cool man i'd love to do that
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/17/16 02:34 PM

After a couple week vacation I went back out to the barn today and hooked up the new throttle cable, then instead of doing the other work required (like hooking up the TPS or exhaust...) I decided I wanted to fire it up, lol.

So I did =D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q146q1bw_00


So it seems my IAC is directional, and how I had it mounted was backwards initially causing the idle to be around 2,500rpm, so turning it around knocked the idle down to ~1,200rpm, and with the TPS disconnected it's not going into closed loop idle and giving it low-mid 20's ignition timing when normal ~600rpm idle is usually 5-8 of timing. After the exhaust is hooked up and the timing lowered back down (via TPS being wired in) I may still have to chase a small vacuum leak here or there, but will cross that path when I get there. Otherwise, stoked it fired up and doesn't leak fuel!
Posted by: lowboygmc

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/21/16 04:35 PM

right on man that thing sounds killer!!!
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/08/16 09:44 AM

A few post updates from over the last couple weeks.

I heard from one of the NAPA guys that the Eureka airport where I ran the car last summer posted up they are having a run whatcha brung event on Friday May 6, so I may try and make that. I'm supposed to work that day but can likely get it off.

http://www.eurekacarshow.info/drags.html

Drove the car and it really seems to have quite a bit more power from the seat of the pants feel. I had initially re-used the fiber gasket because I liked how thick it was, but it really hadn't come apart clean, so the vacuum leak at the manifold wasn't surprising at all. I replaced it with a new thin tin one from NAPA and it still has a little vacuum leak issue, which isn't surprising given I never had the intake flange surfaced, but it idles down to 600-700rpm in neutral so it's not too bad. So I pulled the intake again, it only takes about ten minutes since the bolts are easy to get to and it's only the intake, cleaned up the surface of the bit of copper RTV, which clearly showed some failings, and put a bead of Right Stuff around the port and then skimmed it off with a metal putty knife, leaving a coating of the Right Stuff in the low spots. I let that sit about an hour and then ran a bead of Right Stuff on the outer edge of the tin intake gasket's raised grooves. So the bead should contact the intake flange first and anywhere the gasket isn't enough the Right Stuff should play filler and shouldn't squeeze its way to the runner. Then let it sit for a couple hours even though Right Stuff says it should be able to go right back into service.

It seemed to have worked. Unfortunately after about a ten minutes of run time it started to leak fuel at two injectors. I the repeated removal and installation of the fuel rail had compromised a couple O-rings which I found upon inspection. Found two of them nicked, this one was the worse, but I replaced all of the upper o-rings just to be sure. The risk ran when removing the fuel rail a few times. The injectors usually stay with the rail, but sometimes they stay with the intake and I had to re-install them into the rail, that's how this happened. I just didn't take enough care installing it last time.
[url="http://s42.photobucket.com/user/TheSilverBuick/media/Firebird%202/IMG_20160307_132143570_zpsopyyjw73.jpg.html"][/url]


It still has an audible vacuum leak, and it appears to be narrowed down to between the ports, where I wasn't able to effectively coat the welds in epoxy... I used a screw driver to attempt to paste in some Right Stuff between the ports, but only had marginal success. So the intake may yet come off again... Got to love R&D, if it was easy everyone would be doing it =P Prototype #1 is about done.

[url="http://s42.photobucket.com/user/TheSilverBuick/media/Firebird%202/IMG_20160307_143146887_zpsnutugor9.jpg.html"][/url][/QUOTE]

I tried using a high speed datalog to see if one cylinder has a greater leak than another, but no such luck. The only thing that came out of it was it "appears" cylinder three pulls the most vacuum, but is likely just a result of the vacuum port being right across from cylinder 3's runner entrance.

The for some reason log is read right to left (as determined by as time increased the logged value was to the left).
​

Just to compare numbers. I am still contending with some vacuum leaks, so the new intake having a higher manifold pressure isn't surprising, but the test is also ran at around 100rpm lower than the first test. So I may dial the target rpm up to 825rpm and run the test again to see how it compares. The extra rpm "should" pull a bit more vacuum and really compare the two charts.

The stock manifold, with the short runners and comparatively small plenum volume runs about 3kPa from low to high, and the new intake ran 1.5kPa from low to high, which I is expected from the much larger plenum volume** combined with the runner length. When I re-run the test at 825rpm I don't expect the variances to change, just shift the wave to a lower pressure range (higher manifold vacuum). The average shift is ~4.75kPa more pressure or 1.4inHg less vacuum.

**The new plenum volume is approximately the same as the engine size, not counting the runner volume.

Test 1 from January 2015. ~825rpm, ~34kPa - ~37kPa


Test 2 from March 2016. ~713rpm, ~39.5kPa - ~ 41kPa.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/29/16 08:43 AM

My wife might kill me when this shows up, but someone apparently is re-producing new OHC cams, offering the hen's teeth "H" cam which is basically the same cam that is in my Firebird except with something like 10 more duration on the intake and exhaust (was only offered one year and only on the manual trans cars), AND a new semi-finished cam!

I bought a semi-finished cam that supposedly has a lot more material on the lobes than my last semi-finished cam that I had ground with low overlap and a turbo in mind. The pictures and description make it sound like the unfinished lobes are larger than the support journals so have to be ground down to at least that point and probably some base circle reduction wink I'm going to hang on to it for a while before getting a grind put on it, but I'm seriously thinking of when I do get it ground to simply tell the grinder to take the bare minimum off for the maximum amount of lift and duration the semi-blank will allow, with consideration of what the LCA options are.

I'm very curious to see what show's up as I didn't think something like this would ever come available.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-OHC-6-Semi-camshaft-/301912199120
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/31/16 11:11 AM

They wasted no time sending it out! Not one bit of paperwork with it, but its not like I expected cam spec's or anything anyways. Payment was to long time OHC parts supplier Woodland Motorsports in Utah, but it was shipped from Delta Cams in Washington.



Lots of room for grinding!
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/02/16 06:38 AM

I thought I'd drop my spare 250 crank into my 230 block to see what clearances I have for possibly rigging up piston oil squirters (to cool the pistons when I put boost to it) when I ran into an unexpected hiccup... The counter weights tag the oil baffle mounting tabs, d'oh! In the 250 block the two mounting tabs have been replaced with a single one in the center to clear the counter weights. So I ground the rivet head off, punched out the remainder and removed the baffle and ground down the tabs to clear. I'll make new baffles and make new mounting points, likely to the side of the block.

That's not supposed to hit...


Or there....


When I turbo the engine, because of the cast iron head and the relatively poor chamber design (by modern standards) I want to try and use every trick in the book to keep detonation at bay. I've already started with reverse flow cooling so the head get's the cool radiator water first, and I've separated the exhaust manifold from the intake to keep heat transfer down, and I'll be using an intercooler and possibly a water/meth injection system, but one other trick is to spray the underside of the piston with oil to help cool the piston and prevent it from being a hot spot in the chamber. It's common in many modern high compression and boosted engines. My thought was to tee off the external lash adjuster galley line and run it to an internal oil rail that would have squirters at the bottom of the cylinder bore. Now that I've re-mocked up the crank in the block, I'm not so sure I can fit a system in there.... =/

Those Pontiac engineers packed every thing in there pretty tightly! I don't think I could get even an 1/8th inch line between the block and counter weights and I think I'd need at least a 3/16th line to have a meaningful impact. That bulge next to the drain back hole (running parallel to the block) is the oil feed line for the mains.




Going to the other side may be possible by drilling a hole to the exterior of the block right at the base of the bore and running a line from the outside to each cylinder. I need to mock up with a connecting rod in place to really see how much room would be available. I'd also have to contend with the exhaust heat as the line would be between the block and exhaust manifold/header and running an oil line to the other side of the engine where even with the turbo I'm going to try and keep all the oil lines on the passenger side. I'm becoming less inclined to try it, at least at this stage.





The other thing I noticed was how poor the oil drain back set up is. The size of the drain back holes are more than adequate, but their location is right above a counter weight that is in it's upwards throw, so it would seem to me that a fair amount of excess oil is getting flung around as crank windage. Not sure what I want to do about that yet. Again it's a room issue, but if I can find a way to extend the drain backs past the crank, I think that would be best. An extreme measure would be to tap and plug the drain backs at the bottom then tap the drain backs from the outside of the block and run a line to the oil pan or even the block's oil filler cavity. This would maximize oil control below. Alternatively would be to build a baffle that carries the oil up against the side of the block, shielding it from the crank windage.

This picture again. Like grind out the hole to flow towards the block wall, then put a baffle between the hole and crank. Even if it covers most the hole, if it's been opened towards the block side it should still flow back reasonably well. Securing the baffle in place I think would be the real challenge.


The 4 vertical ribs going down the side of the block are the oil drains. I would only need to tap into cylinder 3 and 6 and make them drain back to the oil filler cavity, one already drains to the oil fill cavity and I think #5 could be drilled to connect internally to the oil fill cavity. Only really needing to mess with two make this option sound more appealing.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/02/16 07:36 AM

Why not have the crank turned to clear?
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/02/16 06:00 PM

Certainly possible, but at some stage I am likely to trash a crank or four(etc.), so at this stage I rather keep the cost of the crank work down to the standard clean up of the bearing surfaces and ensuring it's still neutrally balanced.

I think I will re-route the oil drain backs. Looking at the block again, I only have to run two external lines and tap into one of them from the oil filler cavity. I check my taps and the hole size is perfect for a 3/8th NPT tap. I think the returns are 9/16th and the tap asks for a 37/64 bit, which 36/64 reduces to 9/16, so plenty of meat to tap into.



I didn't have a 3/8's plug on hand, but this adapter shows it'll work well. I'd probably use some loc-tite on it and likely drill the tiniest of holes in the the plug just so oil doesn't permanently backup in there and cook.



I need to get a 37/64 or 9/16 drill bit to tap the block externally at the base of the returns and to be able to thread the appropriately sized fittings to it. Then I'll drill and tap corresponding fittings to the oil fill cavity.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/03/16 02:57 PM

Finally got the intake sealed up well enough I'm ready to really drive the car around. I had some issues with between the runners not being sealed up, but it also had a gasket alignment issue. I got a standard tin intake/exhaust gasket on it and with the intake and exhaust being two pieces now it had sagged down towards the rear. loosening the exhaust manifold and shifting the gasket back up and then tightening the manifold back down seemed to do the trick.

The engine is running at a cold high idle (~38F CLT temp), but fired right up and is running well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_eAOO-iBAA
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/03/16 05:31 PM

Finally removed the spoiler from the deck lid. I've never liked it. It's more of a Camaro thing. The paint under it is a bit rough, so going to try some paint cleaner on it. I'm going to simply RTV in some black plugs in the bolt holes to seal them up for the time being.

Posted by: strokersix

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/04/16 12:56 PM

Pay close attention to your quench/squish. My understanding this is a major factor toward reducing spark knock. Whether that applies to detonation with your boosted plan or not I can't say but it probably does.

Note that a hotter block (coolant routed to head first) means a hotter piston. Much of the heat transfer out of the piston is through the rings and skirt into the cylinder walls. Also, I would be a little concerned about the coolant flow paths in both the head and block with reversed flow. For example, is there an intentional flow path with increased velocity up from the block near the spark plug to keep it cool in the factory configuration? I have no special knowledge, just some formal education on these subjects. I applaud your efforts. Comments are meant to be encouraging!
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/04/16 08:03 PM

I'm much more concerned about the temperature of the valves (giving adequate cooling to the exhaust seats) and that the cylinder head is iron and more likely to retain heat and have hot spots versus the piston that is aluminum and will better distribute the heat through the whole piston and be less prone to hot spotting. If my tune and EGT's are in control, I won't be overly concerned about piston temps.

I don't run any kind of restrictor or thermostat in the cooling system, so speed should be relatively good. The coolant passages in the head deck are between the cylinders and don't appear to have any special direction to them. I intentionally went with two inlets into the head to try and create pressure in the head to keep the typically hot spots around the exhaust ports from boiling, which of course is to keep cooling the exhaust valve. I eventually plan on having a 55gpm water pump on it, so should be able to set the engine temp where ever I want it to be on most days, if I feel I need lower bore temperatures, then the head would just be lower, and that wouldn't be a bad thing. I already have it programmed to run full flow, regardless of engine temp, when ever the engine load is medium to high (above 60kPa MAP, or 70%TPS) and that will work even better with the 55gpm pump.

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 04/13/16 02:07 PM

I finally went and got actual plugs for the oil drain backs. I was concerned about oil being trapped, and cooking/sludging, at the plugs so I took the tiniest drill bit I had and made a drain hole, then to promote sticking it to the wall of the block rather than drip onto the rotating assembly. I also numbered them to the corresponding cylinder to make it easy to re-install them after I remove them for the actual machine shop work.





I also drilled the first two holes in the block to re-route the return oil. The first one was a difficult angle to achieve (why the oem didn't do it!), but I finally got the drill bit to bite and have one re-routed internally to the oil fill cavity. So this one will drain back behind an oil baffle. I'll probably run that baffle a bit below the oil pan rail to be sure it clears the crank.


The last hole I drilled today, and tapped, was the first drain. There is a nice block in the casting where the passage changes direction so I centered up and drilled a 9/16th hole there and tapped it for a flared fitting. I will add a corresponding fitting in the oil fill area to drain too. It will likely "disappear" from sight when the fitting and line are painted Pontiac Blue.



I need to drill and tap one more return line for the rear most drain. That one is a bit more complicated due to the casting ribs from the bell housing, but should still be able to make it work.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/04/16 09:13 AM

Been still working on minor vacuum leaks around my crap welding around the flanges and injector bungs. Not surprising though, given this was my first attempt at something like this. I think I got it to a reasonably sealed up point and the weather finally cleared enough to drive it to work yesterday.

Driving home I noticed it was smoking quite a bit, like before I hooked up the crankcase vacuum to help the rings. Also was seeing some oil pressure instability at higher rpm. When I got home I checked the oil level and was dang near two quarts over full. Not sure what I was thinking when I changed the oil two weeks ago, but clearly wasn't counting bottles.

So I pulled it into the shop and disconnected the external oil line return and using a spare distributor as an oil priming tool quickly pumped out around 2 quarts.



Then driving to work this morning, I wound it up some. Pulled to 5400rpm, with no indication of laying over, but was starting to see some oil pressure instability again so I lifted to get it to shift and then put the pedal back down until ~4,800rpm in second.

These oil instabilities are why I'm working on external return lines on my next engine as I'm pretty sure it's oil aeration causing the issues. There is a sweet spot for the oil level to be at that it seems to like and I must not have it right yet after yesterday's oil volume adjustment.

The white line is RPM, I was in 2nd gear then it downshifted into first and ran up to 5400rpm and I lifted to get it to shift into second early and hit the throttle again. I need to look at my sensor lag settings as it shows the TPS and MAP signals falling after the RPM, which should be the opposite case.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/05/16 08:56 AM

Since I'm getting ready to go to the track tomorrow and test for any improvements, I thought I'd review the data gathered from last year passes for review. The answer is it doesn't look promising for an improvement from my intake.....yet! I've plotted the rpm acceleration rates in first and second gear from my tests two days ago against the drag strip passes from last year. The soild white line is with the new intake and the shadowed white line is from last year's passes. The caveat is where I'm really expecting the improvements to be is in the 5,500+rpm range. It's the rpm range I built the runner lengths around. The engine before started to nose over around 5,500rpm and really choked around 5,800rpm, so it will be interesting to see if I've overcome that. I still have some oil pressure flutter as of this morning, so I'm going to pull more oil out of it tonight and hopefully be able to sneak up on the right amount (if I don't get it right tonight) tomorrow by adding a little at a time. I know there is a happy medium, I had it at last year's event.




I also finally got the Raspberry Pi 2 running the dash setup on boot up. It's roughed in right now as final shaping and arraigning of the gauges will be done on the small screen in the car. The boot time is around 45 seconds, which is down from a minute and twenty seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sv-PvD5NMw
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/10/16 11:25 AM

Due to weather running the track was a bust. The wife and I did drive 90 miles out there only to find the guy who owns the timing equipment had cancelled the night before. A few of the organizers were there and still tech'd some cars in and did some flag drop 1/8 mile grudge racing and whatnot until the rain started, which was about 30 minutes afterwards.

I made one pass and the car pulled cleanly to a data logged 5700rpm, oil pressure was good but still had some issues with vacuum leaks and the rains came as I was going for a second pass.

All dressed up and ready to go.


Put 190 miles on it in one day and drove cleanly out and back. The air temps hung around 55-58F and some rain.


The Firebird is parked over on the right and the engine drew plenty of attention from the 10am gate opening to the 11am run time.


My wife took this picture of me reviewing the datalog after my first pass. Rain drops were just starting to fall.


So we went into town for lunch before heading home. We walked the main street looking at the various cars out. Got in just before it started to rain again.



I'm going to put the 4bbl EFI intake back on, and start work on the new intake. One of the local hardware stores is closing down and I bought all their sheet metal for 50% off so I have the materials ready to go, just need to find the time.
Posted by: lowboygmc

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/17/16 08:53 PM

Does the ms adjust timing under boost or do you still have to get a timing controller?
Posted by: lowboygmc

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/17/16 09:00 PM

Also forgot to ask what's a raspberry pi? Processor for an in dash or what?
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/18/16 09:20 AM

Mega Squirt does full timing control, at idle, at cruise, WOT, in boost, out of boost, modifies/pulls timing if the intake air temperatures are climbing, richens the fuel mixture up if the engine is loaded up over a certain amount of time to cool off the EGT's, has a few over boost protection options, etc.

The Rasberry Pi is a $35 Linux based computer that runs on a 5volt microUSB power cord (cellphone charger). Uses a SD card for a hard drive so has no moving parts to fail from vibration. Just program it and hook it to a screen to show what the Mega Squirt is seeing.

What's up with the Firebird at the moment is I'm waiting for some intake/exhaust gaskets to show up and I'm going to re-install the old intake while I work up a new one, which may simply be a new flange and short length of runner and graft the custom intake to a better flange set up.

This is what I've been up to on my Skylark, the Firebird will likely eventually get this treatment when it has traction issues or if I want a digital speedometer before installing the 4L60E.

Quote:
Thought I'd take some time today to install a hall sensor on the front right wheel to hopefully help me launch the car off the line. The premise is I have a vehicle speed sensor on the transmission letting the Mega Squirt know how fast the rear wheels are turning, and by adding a wheel speed sensor to one of the "un-powered" front wheels the Mega Squirt can compare the two and if the rear wheels are turning faster than the fronts by a programmed amount over a programmed period of time, then it starts pulling timing by programmed amounts. Pulling timing (to as low as 0) effectively kills the horsepower production of the engine, but it'll pull it and give it back as fast as needed to keep the two wheels spinning at nearly the same rate. Basically it'll allow a ~5-10% slip differential so the rear wheels can be turning slightly faster than the fronts to keep acceleration going.

Many folks have been having luck running the sensor in the brake backing plate or on a bracket and reading the backside of the wheel studs, but it looked like to me the wheel studs on my car don't stick out far enough to get a reliable signal (I didn't actually try..). But I did notice there was a casted lug between each stud, and I checked another rotor I have on the shelf and it had the same casting, so hopefully it's a reliable feature to use if I change rotors down the road. What I needed to do though is bend the backing plate a bit to angle for the lug. That was simple enough just used a cut off wheel to make a tabbed section, bent it, then put a couple spot welds at the joint to stiffen it back up. Drilled a hole in the tab and welded one of the sensor nuts to the tab so the sensor threads in and the second nut becomes a jam nut.


A while ago I started getting away from using the corrugated wire covering, but figured this is a good place to use it to protect the wires. I trimmed out a small plate to hole the wiring in place and used the extra threads from one of the bolts on the ball joint to secure it.



Here is a short video of me testing the sensor before finishing the wiring up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvIFuRjDqE4

The smaller "mph" number is the front wheel. Appears to be working as intended.

Posted by: lowboygmc

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/18/16 03:21 PM

I tell you what man you do some really bad ass electrical stuff I like it it makes me really want to do such things as well
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/24/16 09:23 PM

Went and picked up the mother load of "stuff" this last weekend. There is so much I'm not even sure what direction I'll go first, but I'm leaning towards staying the course with the block I'm working on, but possibly using the pistons on the rods and crank I have. Then get one of the heads ported and set up, or may continue on with my current head project and save ALL the good stuff (except the forged pistons) for when I have the turbo R&D completed. To say I am excited is to under state it!

Got a u-haul trailer of stuff! Including 6 blocks, a couple heads, some cams, two '69 Firebird core supports and lots of miscellaneous parts including a random Atlas 4.2 head.


Used a ramp, and some help to get the engines in, but didn't have too much trouble with a sheet of plywood and the engine hoist.


A snap shot of most the stuff. The engine stand came with the engine! There are accessory drives, starters, pulleys, tubing, misc. hardware, couple oil pans, etc.


A couple of cams. They may or may not be high-performance, but will check them out later. I already have my turbo cam for my main engine goal.


Cleaned up 250 head. Basically the same head that is in my Firebird now except it has nice new seats. I did get some valves so have to decide how I want to proceed from here.


This head has beehive springs on it. The stems measure ~.100" above spec, so would need to be cut down. I am considering just shaving them ~.050" and with my turbo cam needing ~0.050" taller stems, would put them right in spec. I'd have to come up with 0.050" shims for under the lash adjusters to keep the geometry good. There is probably some wiggle room on the lash adjuster side though.


This is the beehive head, I believe it's a 230 1bbl head. Pretty high compression on a 250 engine, but I think if the chambers are modified the compression with a felpro gasket may be right where I'd want it for the turbo engine. I've been working with a 1bbl 230 head already, so I have something to test with first.


A fully machined block and crank. A set of pistons and rings for it as well. I have a good set of OE rods with arp bolts already. I may confiscate these pistons for the block I've been modifying.


An engine just waiting for a good head... This is just going back into it's wrapping (and maybe more wrapping) and will sit in the corner until I'm pretty much done with all my turbo R&D work. Not sense in risking it on stupid tuning or other mistakes. It has a nice set of forged rods in it, and may even be a stroker engine (off set ground journals with longer rods).



Three of the engines, including the machined bare block, have all the cross bolt bosses cast in. It would likely take a TON of rpm and boost to require cross bolting, but if I ever reach that level of eccentricity I could have main caps made to take cross bolts. 7 mains is already pretty hefty though.
[img]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e313/TheSilverBuick/OHC%20R%20and%20D/Block_zpsie7bpxqd.jpg[/img]
Posted by: TurboCamaro

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/24/16 11:49 PM

Wow, that's a nice haul! A little jealous up here.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/25/16 06:18 AM

The last photo isn't coming up for some reason, so trying again here.


Three of the engines, including the machined bare block, have all the cross bolt bosses cast in. It would likely take a TON of rpm and boost to require cross bolting, but if I ever reach that level of eccentricity I could have main caps made to take cross bolts. 7 mains is already pretty hefty though.
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/25/16 01:48 PM

Looks like a great score Randal. You'll have OHC parts for life now.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/29/16 06:45 AM

I've started putting one of the "core" short blocks to use. I took the junkiest looking 230 in the collection and decided to use it for some piston oil squirter experimentation. I had kind of walked away from the idea, but since I now have something like 34 spare connecting rods, I figured I could sacrifice three or four for testing, and likewise for the cast 230 pistons. Another motivation is I'm starting to get nervous about piston pin oiling as I'm pulling a fair amount of crankcase vacuum and with at least one block I'm pulling the return oil completely away from the crankshaft, so to throw some oil up that way would help in that area.

Taking this idea and trying to implement it on the OHC engine. The thing I like about this design is they are always pointing at the bottom of the piston, aka parallel to the rod. However I am skeptical of their effectiveness since they are essentially after the oil is cast off from the rod bearing I am unsure how much pressure it will actually have there to make the distance to the piston. After some more googling, I was shooting for ~1/16" notch since I really want volume for cooling the piston.



The second step is to actually be able to see how effective it is, so I took two pistons, drilled a couple holes in the crown then saws-all'd the openings larger so I could see how effective the spray pattern is at different oil pressures. So I've modified one rod, the other is for the next test, and by the time I smoothed out the cut edges the opening was a bit bigger than I wanted, but will see how it performs anyways. It does not intersect the bearing shell at all, so I didn't have to modify the bearing. Unfortunately when I went to test it the oil pump wouldn't take a prime so I primed it and then oil leaked around the oil pump base, so I tightened the bolts on the base plate and the gears wouldn't move. Turns out it's a pump I've disassembled and didn't put a gasket back on. I have a stack of pump gaskets, but at that moment I didn't feel like making an oily mess pulling the pump plate off so called it the day. Maybe today or tomorrow I'll get back to it. I will likely also have to replace the pressure relief spring to get over 35psi of pressure, but since it's external its an easy modification.

Looking down through the piston. I put the notches on the front side, figuring as the vehicle is accelerating the spray will move rearwards. No getting around those physics. Interestingly enough this block has the old style small "Chevy style" rods in it. Still forged, just less material around the big end.
[url="http://s42.photobucket.com/user/TheSilverBuick/media/OHC%20R%20and%20D/IMG_20160528_124357900_zpsmvmt6eqi.jpg.html"][/url]

[url="http://s42.photobucket.com/user/TheSilverBuick/media/OHC%20R%20and%20D/IMG_20160528_124318469_zpsotwfi9cf.jpg.html"][/url]
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/29/16 09:21 AM

Another more effective method is to put some pin oiling holes in the pistons. This is an option that many custom piston companies offer as an upcharge, but its worth doing to ensure you have positive pin oiling at all times. Having slots or even spit holes in the rods doesn't really do a good job because the rods are constantly oscillating and never really directing the spray where it needs to go. Another alternative for spraying oil to the underside of the piston crowns for cooling is a method that Porsche used in many of its 24 Hour races at LeMans and other long endurance races. It was basically similar to a gas jet in a Holley carb that intersected the main oil galley in the main bulkhead of the block. It was fixed at a slight angle so it constantly sprayed oil at the underside of the pistons throughout the entire 360 of rotation and is never blocked or obstructed by any of the other engine components. They stated that it cooled the piston crowns temperature by over 400F, and saved many engines from failures during these races where the engines endured those long hours of constant full throttle high boost situations.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/29/16 01:46 PM

I've actually looked it up a fair amount, but I guess never really posted that info up here, just mentioned it a bit a few posts back.

Going off the mains is what I'd really like to do, like this, but I'm not willing to trash a block to test how thick the casting is around the main passage. If I accidently trash a block or break one down the road I'll use that opportunity to check it out.
[img]http://forums.drom.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=926597&stc=1&d=1269782157[/img]


This method is clearly cruder, but it will at minimum promote slinging oil towards the piston on the upwards stroke, but volume will be needed for significant cooling, but a slight spray will be adequate for pin lubrication.

Since I have these pistons with window's now, I'm going to review running a tube "second" oil main for piston oilers. The perk to running a second external line is a pressure valve could be installed so it only pressurizes up when the rpm's/pump is wound up so it's not bleeding oil pressure at low rpm's/oil pressure, but space is limited in the crankcase.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/29/16 05:31 PM

Here is kind of the follow through on the Skylark's front wheel speed sensor for traction control. Which I'm hoping some day to need on the Firebird.

Needs some fine tuning, but I have a baseline to work from. As a reminder, Buick 455(462) with a manual transmission, 3.89 gears.
Quote:

Finally turned the traction control on for some testing. No significant speed testing but tried five or six burnouts and datalogged two of them. It's a weird feeling, it's not missing like a rev limiter cutting spark but you can certainly feel the power being pulled down, softly. I datalogged the most extreme case which is sitting on the 2-step limiter and just dumping the clutch, which usually sends the tires up in smoke and the rpm's to the moon. One caveat to this though, I didn't try laying the pedal to the floor due to where I was driving, but in a normal circumstance, that throttle position should of produced a much much longer burnout.

I annotated the datalog a bit. I have a minimum threshold of 5mph set so it won't do anything until the car is over 5mph, and once there traction has to be over 5% different (check), and it took 0.21 seconds after the first reading above 5mph for the timing to be pulled down to 11.5. I have just some guesstimate numbers plugged in, so I'll probably pull the timing down faster and lower. I have some noise in the rear wheel speed sensor when I'm on the 2-step, so until I cure that I can't really lower the 5mph minimum threshold. Overall, I'm glad that it's doing SOMETHING and can work from that baseline. It was just under 0.4 seconds between the rear tires spinning and the front tire registering speed, then another 0.21 seconds before the traction control kicked in, and ignition timing was reduced for 1.45 seconds.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/08/16 01:45 PM

I put a gasket in the pump and it worked perfectly. First set of test show no oil coming out of those holes, at all. There is oil dripping through the sides (bottom?), but not out the top. Initially it had 30psi of oil pressure, so I stuck a Buick 455 high pressure spring in there and got over 60psi, and still nothing. I rotated the crank a bit and still nothing, but I have not tried rotating the crank while the pump is going due to an oil return line I don't trust...

I am thinking of naming this test rig "Grease Ball" or "Exxon Valdez" because how grimy it is. Gunk everywhere but the crank turns freely. The oil return line is just a scrap piece of 3/8th tubing I jammed into the oil passage that feeds up to the lash adjusters and cam housing, there is no positive hold down on it. I may weld a tab to it and bolt it down at the nearest head bolt or something. As kind of apparent, I had one "oops" where the line popped out and a geyser of oil shot up at least 5 feet and splashed on the ceiling, among other things.


Due to the line popping off once, I hold on to it while running the drill and observing, but out of curiosity I wanted to see how efficiently the pump moved oil and it seems pretty good. Using a simple hand ratchet it pumps pretty well to the top. Each pulse is a 1/3-1/2 rotation of the pump, so when the engine is going, plenty of oil is moving around.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKwQ8DD3ePc

And it seems some one else had tried to boost the oil pressure of the engine as I found a nut in the relief cap shimming the spring up, lol.
Posted by: JStewart

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 06/09/16 04:35 PM

Sent you a PM.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/02/16 11:42 AM

Not quite front page news, but my home brewed intake manifold made it into the new'ish Pontiac magazine "Poncho Perfection". I'll have to order one or two.



Posted by: Twisted6 I.I #3220

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/03/16 07:26 PM

Great Job
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/10/16 07:23 AM

I got a package from DIYautotune.com on Friday that had the 16-pin 4L60e transmission plug and a generic wiring harness, which is the last computer part I needed to install a 4L60e in the Firebird. I have a MegaSquirt 2 I removed from the Thunderbird that can be re-purposed as a transmission controller.

The next question became, do I gamble and install the 4L60e, I bought a while a go, as is (or with a slight shift kit) and see how it does, or do I completely disassemble it like I did the 200-4r? The rebuild kit with stronger internals and new electronic's, etc is $625. The guy I bought the trans from was also selling the Chevy 350 with a rod knock it was attached too, so I have some faith it's in somewhat decent shape. It's got a rebuild sticker on it from a shop in Utah, which he said it was rebuilt in 2008. For about $120 I can do a shift kit and external servo. Which for a naturally aspirated six would likely last a long time. I also already have the adapter plate and shims needed to bolt it to the Pontiac block.

Looking around, a professionally rebuilt units run around $1100 plus shipping. Some require a core, some do not.





I put the trans on the bench and popped the pan off. There was some dirt piled up under the brush cover and it got into the pan when I popped it loose, but otherwise it looks pretty good over all. I think I'll get a Trans-Go HD2 shift kit and a "Corvette" 4th gear servo and call it good. Summit has the kit for $80 and the servo is $12 on Amazon.


Looks like it got a new TCC valve when it was rebuilt.


The pan easily wiped clean and minimal amount of material on the magnet.


And I've been driving the car to work for the last week.
Posted by: efi-diy

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/13/16 07:40 PM

Hard to tell - is the fluid red or brownish?

The one part that can fail on these is the sun shell - if it does it usually takes the case with it. Fix once and forget about it.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/14/16 07:25 AM

Dark red. It's old fluid, with some condensation from a couple years of sitting both in my barn and for a while under a tarp outside. It does not however smell burnt. I've smelled burnt ATF before and this just smells and looks like old ATF.

Behind a naturally aspirated L6, the stock shell should be fine. I do plan on turbo'ing this engine, but how much boost I'll run through it is probably fairly low with stock pistons and a ton of blow-by. When I pull the engine to put a better one in, I'll disassemble the transmission for better internals. Who knows, maybe when the rebuilder rebuilt it, they put a better sun shell in, they don't cost that much and with the warranty their website boasts, it may be a SOP on overhauling these.

It's a $200 transmission I plan on sinking another $100 (shift kit and servo) into and installing it. If the $300 transmission grenades, well that's what it does, but from what I see, I don't think that's going to happen.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 07/25/16 10:00 AM

I looked some more at possibly installing piston squirters, and took a short section of tube and welded another section onto it and was planning on hooking a rubber hose to it try it out, but after a few bends and tweaks, it was pretty apparent I wasn't going to get a pipe to run down the right side of the block (up throw side), nor get the lines to easily clear the counter weights, connecting rod, and the piston skirt hanging down below the cylinder walls. The clearance between the piston and counter weight just don't leave much room to work, and running ~5 inches of unsupported tube is looking plenty like a bad idea. Tabled once again.

I also ordered the Trans-go kit for the 4L60e as well as two sonnax pin-less accumulators and a corvette servo. Should show up in the mail later in the week. And a fellow Drag Weeker was going to throw out a set of 4.56 gears for a 8.5" rear end if no one wanted them for the cost of shipping, so I took him up on the offer. I had 4.56 gears on a mini-spool with the 8.2" rear end. I got tired of the spool and swapped in the 8.5" with a GM positraction and 3.42 gears. So will probably swap those gears back in after the 4L60e is installed because screwing with the governor speedo drive gears on the 200-4r sucks. The 4L60e will just be a few clicks on the computer and call it done.

My mock up. Unfortunately I couldn't find a configuration that would allow me a full crank rotation without hitting or pinching something.


The piston/counterweight clearance.


The oil tube complicated things as well.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 08/01/16 07:49 AM

The shift kit showed up this last week, as well as some Sonnax pinless accumulator parts. It seems the sonnax pinless accumulators have a different shape that make the transgo springs come up short. Glad I googled it now rather than after opening it all up. I'm waiting for the corvette servo to show up, but that is an easy external piece if I get to installing the kit before it arrives.

At this point in time I'm not going to worry about installing the rev' kit (>5500rpm) which requires disassembly of the transmission because I don't anticipate really going over 5500rpm at this point. After installing the turbo, if I find I'm making decent power and want to install some good hard parts internally, then I'll install it at that time.

The 4.56 gears arrived in good shape. I'll get the 4L60e installed first and make sure it's working well before I swap the rear gears.

I'm hoping to order a turbo kit (turbo, IC, piping, etc) this week, then some real fun can start!

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 08/03/16 06:06 PM

I had 30 minutes to kill and decided to poke around the transmission some and much to my surprise I could have saved myself $25 as the transmission already had the Sonnax pinless accumulators in it! Pretty interesting considering it was a medium sized commercial rebuild shop sticker on it. It doesn't seem to have the extra springs or modified valves from the Trans-go kit from what I seen. Tomorrow I hope to pull the valvebody off.



Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 08/06/16 06:18 AM

Finished up installing the shift kit yesterday. The 4th gear accumulator also had a sonnax pinless accumulator in it, but the servo was a standard smaller truck servo, so I put a larger "Corvette" one on. I couldn't see, or know well enough, to tell if it had any upgrades internally to the drum or sun shell. Overall, everything inside looked about as expected. I'll have about $275 into this transmission (including the cost of the transmission and the accumulators I ended up not needing), so if it doesn't work I'll backup and get a full rebuild kit.



I also finally plunked down the cash and bought a turbo kit. I didn't get the "perfect" size I'd get if money were no object, but went with the turbo kit the Sloppy Mechanic's guys use for the 4.8L LS's. They're making 600HP with them, so figure the HP figure is about right. It's a 69mm inducer wheel and appears to have a 1.05 A/R. Hopefully I know more when it arrives.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 08/10/16 07:48 AM

Things hopefully will start to get more interesting now....



I picked up one of the Sloppy Mechanic's "Denmah" turbo kits from VSracing. Not all the pieces have arrived yet, but I got the turbo and intercooler in. It's their standard Chinese GT45, 69mm inducer wheel, 77mm turbine wheel and 1.05 AR, T4 flange. I'm going to do the first install pretty quick and dirty. I'll get some non-mandrel bent 1-3/4" pipes made up from a local shop and run it as a twin scroll set up. Front three cylinders and back three cylinders. If my calculations are right, I have enough fuel injector on the engine to cover about 350 horsepower, and based on 1/4 mile data the engine N/A is making around 175HP.

I plan on having the turbo sit right about here. I'll do some clocking of the turbo to get the cold side outlet where I want it for the intercooler. I'll probably require some minor re-plumbing of the coolant and transmission cooler lines to keep them from interfering/melting.


Looks like I'll just have to do some minor hood latch support cutting to fit the intercooler in front of the radiator. Fortunately I have a spare core support to use to reference where I'll need to make the holes for the piping in the car. I'll likely need to re-locate the battery too, which is a bummer, but not unexpected.


And a reminder on how the exhaust manifold is. I've since cut out the cross over, and later I may build my own headers (I have a header pipe kit on the shelf), or even bolt the set of fancy headers I have on. I rather get the fancy headers coated before using them and not ready to spend dollars on that yet. If the twin scroll plumbing isn't quite enough to get it to spool up reasonably, I'll try some EFI tuning tricks to try and move it along better.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 08/10/16 08:17 PM

What stall converter are you planning on using. If the turbo was a dual scroll inlet you could have a little less lag. The A/R is pretty big.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 08/10/16 09:30 PM

What stall converter are you planning on using. If the turbo was a dual scroll inlet you could have a little less lag. The exhaust A/R is pretty big.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 08/11/16 05:22 AM

I haven't ran the part number on the sticker on the torque converter to check the stall, but I'm expecting it to be a truck 1,800 stall. Unfortunately my 200-4r converter won't work on the 4L60e, which has a 2,500 stall converter. After I drive the car for a bit with the turbo I plan on diving deep into the 4L60e and fully rebuild it, with some good parts, and at that time I'll get a decent torque converter for it with a much higher stall. In the mean time, I have a set of 4.56 gears I may be installing in the rear.
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 08/12/16 05:47 PM

The stock stall on my Silverado was 1400, I put in a 2400 stall now and is much better
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 08/14/16 05:27 AM

I agree with you on the stall being low. What ever it is, it's going to be too low. I'm hoping I can see how the engine behaves and make a better educated guess on what stall to order than making a guess at this point.

I'm going to make another go at building my own headers. I have some 1.5" primary pipes that I thought are too small to use as a high performance headers, plus I have larger header pipe on hand as well as an assembled equal length header that has a larger primary pipe diameter, so didn't think much about using them. But now, given I'm trying to make a twin scroll exhaust setup, the guidance I've gotten was to keep the secondary pipe fairly small, so with that in mind I could keep the primary pipes smaller as well.

So the plan is to use the 1.5" primary pipes into two individual collectors, keeping them as equal length as I'm capable of, then run two 1.75" secondary pipes to the T4 flange, and again keeping them as equal length as I'm capable of. I have several 90 1.75" bends on order to get the piping to the passenger side of the engine. I was going to simply have a local shop bend me up a few non-mandrel 90's and plumb off the exhaust manifold, but I was getting the run around by the shop I was going to use. So I'm abandoning that idea until I get frustrated with these headers, lol.

When I digitized the exhaust ports to calculate the area, they averaged 1.82sqin, and 1.5" pipe should be around 1.77sqin, so fairly close. I'm going to keep the pipe tucked up along the top of the port as best I can and stretch the metal downwards from there. I believe there are two headers worth of pipes, hence the huge pile of U's.
Posted by: tlowe #1716

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 08/14/16 07:23 PM

Go Man Go!
Posted by: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 08/14/16 07:26 PM

Originally Posted By: TheSilverBuick
I have a set of 4.56 gears I may be installing in the rear.

Running gears like 4.56 will make the boost come in even latter in the RPM range.
The sunshell is a weak link on the 4L60E need to get "The Beast" sunshell my Silverado was loose and needed replacement & my truck is just a daily driver.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 08/16/16 08:48 AM

Cold side plumbing arrived! The $64,000 question will be if I can get these piece to fit without resorting to cutting! They are aluminum so if I need any welding I'll have to outsource it. I'm thinking I'll want to install an intake air temperature sensor port in one at minimum.

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 08/20/16 04:54 PM

Progress! First set of headers I've ever attempted to build, but so far I'm satisfied with the progress. Before I stitch the tubes together I'm going to get a smaller wire for my welder to reduce the chance of blowing through the metal. Once I have the tubes welded, I'll build a pair of collectors down to the 1.75" pipe, then do final metall stretching and welding to the flange.




I'm going to be giving it more thought, but I think this routing will let me use the pipes I have as is. I just need another 90 coupler or two. This routing will require just one hole through the core support on the driver's side. Then I'll build a new intake manifold and line up the throttle body with the tubing.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 08/27/16 04:56 AM

First go at building a set of headers is moving along. Building the collector ended up more complicated than I had hoped, so hopefully it doesn't leak... I have a game plan of what I'm going to do differently, and better, making the next one. Basically for the next one I'm going to install a ring around the three pipes, seal it up on the three pipes and then weld the reducer to the ring. I may cut this collector off just before it reduces in diameter and re-weld some parts just to be sure it doesn't leak. Live and learn! The next three should go much easier as I'm pretty sure I've figured out what settings to use on the welder when simply welding versus filling gaps. Fun fun.

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 09/17/16 09:10 PM

Finally got some time to work more on the headers. I have them exiting straight back, so I can run them naturally aspirated a bit. Both to possibly install them sooner and two to make sure they are completely heat cycled and all the possible crap I missed cleaning them up out. With the 90's on, they should clear the torque converter and transmission. I still have to work over the flange and do final stretching and welding on the ports.

The merge for the rear collector.


​
Posted by: Matt D

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 09/20/16 09:30 AM

damn man that looks awesome
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 09/23/16 05:10 PM

Bent up some straps to bolt to the head to support the turbo. I will probably make a bolt on lower support from a stud ran through one of the transmission mounting holes just to put some extra stiffening in the support.





In the car, I'll have to move the external oil pressure regulator and re-plumb the electric water pump and reverse cooling hoses, but its doable.




It supports the turbo, but will likely need extra support from the rear, particularly if I put flex couplers on the cross over pipes.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/20/17 02:00 PM

Well after packing up and moving across the state in October to a place with significantly less garage space I'm slowly working my way back to moving this forward again. At the end of January I finally got the Firebird and welder over to my new house. Unfortunately the majority of my tools and parts remain in two storage units. I'm waiting for a contractor to install an RV gate in my fence so I can get a few nice storage sheds to get all my things here and set up a small workshop in one of the sheds.

And I picked up another vehicle with an inliner, a MAX II with an inline 2 cylinder 2-stroke engine =D As soon as we get some of the stuff there sold/yard saled off I'll be able to put my tool box at the back and get back to turbo'ing the Firebird. In the mean time, I need to change out the transmission pan gasket and then plan on driving it semi-regularly.
Posted by: tlowe #1716

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/21/17 06:04 AM

Hate it when life gets in the way. Did you move to a city?
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 02/21/17 10:55 AM

I did. I'm now in Sparks, NV, where there is a large Summit Racing store =D Which I've already used. My Skylark broke a ball joint last month so I took the opportunity to pick up new upper and lower control arms from them =D

Other than being down a bit of land/enclosed space, I didn't get rid of anything and finances are even more robust. Just a matter of getting everything fully settled and organized to get back to the projects. I just need to find a decent local machine shop to really get stuff done!

I'm still eyeballing some of your flat top 250 pistons still for when I get back to putting a short block together.

There are seven L6 engines/blocks in there =P I sort of regret putting the tool box drawers against the wall because I cannot access some of the things I'd like to pull out of there, but that's why I did it, so it'd be harder to steal from if it were broken into. My other storage unit has many of the smaller parts and stuff.


Posted by: lowboygmc

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/10/17 12:10 AM

Congradulations on the move!

Had a question for you. When using a 4 pin hei with a mega squirt 2 v3.0 pcb board

And a relay board to wire it up for spark control I removed 4 pin module wired 5v ref from vref on relay board to (+) side vref sensor wired the (-) side to tps return wired tach on relay board to tach on distributor then (s5) on relay board to the (c) on the distributor. Does that sound correct?
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/10/17 08:45 AM

Thanks!

That doesn't sound right to me at all, the Vref shouldn't be involved at all. To control timing with an HEI four things need to be wired/set.

1) Inside the cap. Pickup coil in the distributor needs one wire going to the "TACH" port on the relay board, and the other wire from the pickup coil just needs to be grounded.

2) Outside the cap. Relayed** +12v needs to go to the power side of the distributor, essentially like normal with the 4-pin, then "S5" from the relay board goes to the negative terminal on the HEI cap.

3) In the Megasquirt. On the 3.0 board make sure the VR sensor jumpers are in place for VR IN. You may need to adjust the R55/R56(?) pots to clean the tach signal up. I think turning them all the way counter-clockwise will get it started up, but double check the directions.***

4) In the software. Set the settings for Basic trigger wheel up in TunerStudio, make sure you have the right dwell settings for one coil. 2.5-3.0ms I think? Expect to adjust the trigger offset angle to get the timing light to match the megasquirt.

When it's all wired up, I'd unplug the +12v to the HEI cap and crank the engine and look for rpm in TunerStudio. You may need to adjust the R55/56 pots to get tach signal. Do not bother hooking up the +12v to the HEI cap until you get a good rpm reading of at least 100rpm while cranking. My other tip at this point would be, set your timing to "fixed" under ignition settings (instead of table) to 8 or 10, trigger angle to 5 and it should start right up. Then adjust your trigger angle until the timing light shows the same timing you are commanding "fixed".

**You can leave the factory +12v wiring in place and it'll start fine and such, BUT it could overheat the ignition coil as the 4-pin had a protection circuit in it. It's recommended the distributor coil(s) get their power from the fuel pump relay. So if the fuel pump isn't running, the coils don't have power either.

***Once running, I've left the cover off the megasquirt and adjusted the pots while the engine was running. I believe the base setting will get it idling and a couple thousand rpm, but if you see it loosing tach signal at higher rpm, you can adjust it, rev it, adjust it, rev it, etc until it revs up the full rpm range and picks up the tach signal at low rpm too. Then put the lid back on it.
Posted by: lowboygmc

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/10/17 01:52 PM

Thank I remember you helping me with it before life had gotten in the way since then and I had forgotten

But they make it very hard to find specifics on the Internet about using the vref out of a 4 pin and have lots of info on 7 pin distributors
Posted by: lowboygmc

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/11/17 12:18 AM

Would it be easier or more reliable to get a 7 pin hei unit or is running a 4 pin with the 4 pin module removed and the distributor advancing methods voided or no diffence?
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/13/17 10:04 AM

The easiest is to use a 4-pin module distributor with the module removed, the vacuum advance disconnected (from vacuum) and the mechanical advance either pinned or wire tied so they can't move.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 03/31/17 10:12 AM

To compliment Snowman's thread,

I'm slowly making headway on getting mine back on track. Last weekend I made the big leap of getting 95% of my tools out of storage and to the house. I've got it set up but I need to unpack the tools from the buckets. I need to first get my ATV up and going, do some minor work to the Skylark, then hopefully drag and engine, engine stand and the partially built turbo header home and get back to it. I did change out the transmission pan gasket and have been driving the Firebird around from time to time though, so still inlining it.

Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/21/17 04:39 PM

I haven't really updated this in a while. The family and I have been taking the Skylark to a Sunday cars and coffee car show that happens every other weekend and been wanting to take the Firebird but it didn't have any rear seat belts so was a no go. Fortunately Summit Racing is right down the street getting a set of universal seatbelts wasn't a problem, but the bolts were a bit back ordered. Finally got them all installed about a month ago.


Then this weekend was going to be the moment of truth and we were going to go to the car show in the Firebird.... Almost.

So starting Friday night, even after putting a new transmission pan gasket and rtv in it, and even letting it sit for 24 hours before putting fluid in it, it still leaks a fair amount of fluid so I wanted to jack it up and slightly tighten all the pan bolts and wanted a working surface in the backyard until I save up for some dirt work and concrete so.... For about $100 I now have 64 square feet of working area on the gravel. Still seems to be seeping a bit, time will tell if snugging them helped at all. I'm getting ready to put the 4L60e in it and am going to simply get a Microsquirt controller for it. In the mean time, I've pulled the 4.56 gears out of storage and am thinking of putting them in sooner rather than later.
[url="http://s42.photobucket.com/user/TheSilverBuick/media/Firebird%202/IMG_20170519_182944_zpskjxrsmhg.jpg.html"][/url]


Then Saturday morning.... Since it was a car show we were going to the next day I thought I'd clean up some wiring under the hood and then go get it washed, and be ready for the cruise. Well..... The wiring I was cleaning up I decided to move the water pump relay and shorten up the wires, well I apparently got two wires crossed and when driving to the car wash the engine got hot so I pulled over to troubleshoot. I could smell electrical burning in the car, not good, and the water pump wasn't running. It also popped the 15amp water pump fuse so yanking some wire connectors off and hotwired the water pump to the battery which cooled down the engine quickly but strangely the fan stayed on. BUT, it still fired up and everything on the screen was normal, so drove home to yank the Megasquirt out. At which point in time the Dog thought he was going to go for a ride, d'oh!
[url="http://s42.photobucket.com/user/TheSilverBuick/media/Firebird%202/IMG_20170520_140258_zps42a8n6ul.jpg.html"][/url]

And now the carnage. Opened the Megasquirt and the INJ outputs were toasted, particularly the one the water pump was hooked to was completely vaporized away. If you've read through this thread, you may recall when I first got the Firebird running I toasted the Megasquirt's power circuit when I mis-wired the alternator to the wrong side of the cut off switch, and that white wire down by the exposed copper was a jumper lead I had to put in from burning out the connection in the board.
[url="http://s42.photobucket.com/user/TheSilverBuick/media/Firebird%202/IMG_20170520_142253_zpszpmjnkmo.jpg.html"][/url]

This resistor (R20) was toasted.
[url="http://s42.photobucket.com/user/TheSilverBuick/media/Firebird%202/IMG_20170520_144740_zpslgxacxlz.jpg.html"][/url]

Looking at some troubleshooting schematics, R20 is part of the INJ1 circuit, which is what I had the water pump wired to.
[url="https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tech/other/troubleshooting-ms-injector-driver/"]https://www.diyautotune.com/support/...jector-driver/[/url]


So I had another Megasquirt board I've scavenged parts off of before (such as the power circuit when I toasted the one here), so thought I'd could just take a few pieces off, maybe make a jumper wire or two and be back in action....
[url="http://s42.photobucket.com/user/TheSilverBuick/media/Firebird%202/IMG_20170520_150205_zpsnj8tulfa.jpg.html"][/url]

But after transferring the resistor and doing some other continuity checks, something else was shorting the INJ outputs to ground and I'm not sure where. SO I began transferring parts from the burned out board to my spare parts board until it was complete! Look Ma I put the smoke back in! A new board from DIYautotune.com is $219.


Back together with the new "old" board.
[url="http://s42.photobucket.com/user/TheSilverBuick/media/Firebird%202/IMG_20170520_210009_zpsz4pgyxtw.jpg.html"][/url]


Now Sunday morning.... Re-wired the relay, triple checked it was wired correctly, and plugged in the Megasquirt, and success! The water pump cycled on and off as it was supposed to, so off to go get it washed.
[url="https://www.facebook.com/randal.burns.3/videos/10211918502611604/"]https://www.facebook.com/randal.burn...1918502611604/[/url]

Then apparently the car show location changed at some point between 7pm Saturday night and Sunday as went we arrived there, no one was there and I checked the Facebook page and it had an "Alternate" meeting location that I didn't want to drive 30 minutes more too. So we decided to go have the coolest car at the Wilbur May Arboretum. Put 40 miles on the Firebird today in 80F weather, mixed freeway and surface street driving and it ran flawlessly. So I'm going to call that a win.
[url="http://s42.photobucket.com/user/TheSilverBuick/media/Firebird%202/IMG_20170521_115502_zpsmsgu1fhu.jpg.html"][/url]
[/QUOTE]
Posted by: tlowe #1716

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/22/17 08:42 PM

Ain't that the way it goes. Good job getting her fixed up.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/30/17 09:32 AM

Made its first trip to my "new" job, and didn't have to drive or park on dirt! It gets warmer in stop and go traffic, but that is expected when there is no airflow across the radiator. When I get a VSS hooked up (like with the 4L60e swap) I'll probably have the radiator fan come on at 190F and below 20mph instead of just over 205F and no speed criteria. It never actually broke over 195F, but it's something to watch.

Anyone ever make a heat shield or such to help separate the exhaust manifold heat from the intake?

Posted by: THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/30/17 02:29 PM

Originally Posted By: TheSilverBuick


Anyone ever make a heat shield or such to help separate the exhaust manifold heat from the intake?


I used to use them on the dyno when running official published HP numbers. Hey, the procedure didn't say anything about not putting a heat shield there. TMSAISTI.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 05/31/17 11:55 AM

On this car my intake air temps (IAT's) are consistently 90+F above ambient, whereas my Skylark is closer to 30F above ambient, and that one makes sense given since the air passes through the radiator.

One test I haven't done is put the hood scoop plate back in as the low pressure over the hood may simply be pulling exhaust heat upwards. Short of re-installing the scoop plate, a metal deflector around the carb base may cut that down.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 09/22/17 05:54 PM

I'm ramping back into this project. Call it the Drag Week Motivation Bounce if you will, but I want to get the Firebird setup to run Drag Week in 2018.

The bare mininium plan is:
Finish my turbo header build.
Purchase a Microsquirt and install the 4L60e transmission into the car.
Purchase a $300 tubular core support, so I can mount an open box aluminum radiator I picked up for a steal at Summit. Also lightens the front end and opens up the area for intercooler plumbing. (http://www.rhodescustomauto.com/prod...ort-1967-1969/)
Repair my sheetmetal intake manifold (cut off flange, weld in new one).
Upgrade fuel injectors.
Install Turbo and turbo cam.
Install 4.56 gears
And Go!

Ambitious plan, to do in addition or instead of the items above:
Purchase aftermarket 6" rods and flat top forged pistons. Have valve relief's cut into the pistons to maintain non-interference design.
Send short block out to be machined, balanced, etc. Done proper.
Send head out to be ported.
Get 9" rear end with 3.50 gears. Maybe borrow the rear axle from the Skylark, including the 3.89 gears.
Upgrade the 4L60e to a professionally built unit.

With that, I have just started the process of purchasing one of CNC-Dude's multi-port EFI intakes and sending it with a cylinder head to Smithberg Racing for porting and finishing work on the intake. I'm pretty excited about this!


As a side update, I took the Firebird to Hot August Nights and it drew a crowd fairly regularly.
https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t...amp;oe=5A4C1591
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 09/23/17 03:16 PM

Randal, i'm looking forward to you upgrading your build with this intake.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 09/23/17 04:33 PM

Between your intake and Nick's porting magic, suddenly I don't feel like 600HP is out of reach. Won't necessarily be easy, but I'm feeling more optimistic about it.
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 09/23/17 07:25 PM

I think you'll within reach of that goal pretty easily now.
Posted by: tlowe #1716

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 09/24/17 07:35 AM

That is certainly stepping it up for the Poncho. Most likely will be the highest powered OHC in the land.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 09/24/17 10:43 AM

Originally Posted By: tlowe #1716
That is certainly stepping it up for the Poncho. Most likely will be the highest powered OHC in the land.


I just noticed the website says both your 6" rods and flat top pistons are sold out. Is there an ETA on more coming into stock? Summit carries the rod, but not the piston. And could the piston be ordered in .030" overbore? Its been a while so I need to re-check but I think my good block is standard bore. I was thinking of placing an order in November.
Posted by: tlowe #1716

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 09/24/17 02:53 PM

They are on order, did not want people ordering rods without pistons sitting on the shelf. Probably less than 2 weeks to my door.

I always order my stock pistons in .040 or .060.

Can special order any size, they will just cost a bit more because of less quantity.

Just send me a email tom@12bolt.com
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 09/25/17 07:49 AM

I'll send an e-mail when I verify the cylinder bore. I don't have much issue spending a few dollars more for a little thicker cylinder wall.
Posted by: Blackwater

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 09/25/17 12:34 PM

Tom! Did you ever decide if you could sell me four of the H-beam rods and for how much?
Posted by: CNC-Dude #5585

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 09/25/17 01:45 PM

Originally Posted By: TheSilverBuick
I'll send an e-mail when I verify the cylinder bore. I don't have much issue spending a few dollars more for a little thicker cylinder wall.



I don't think the Poncho's have the same wear issues with the front couple of cylinders like the Chevy's do, so you may find your blocks clean up easily at .030" over.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 09/27/17 08:43 PM

I'm not sure if they do or not. I'd have to dig up the sonic check I did on my "good" block.

And good news, the intake showed up to Smithberg Racing today!
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/14/17 07:10 AM

Got all my OHC L6's home. One more storage shed to assemble and storage unit to empty before everything is home.

Pontiac OHC corner.
[img]https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t...amp;oe=5A707E44[/img]
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 10/20/17 10:22 AM

The cylinder head, throttle body and valves have reached Nick in good order. Officially in the queue.

http://www.smithbergracing.com/
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/18/17 09:21 PM

Getting some work done! At Nick's recommendation I ordered a performance intake/exhaust gasket from Clifford to get some more port size. He's got it marked out and starting the rough port work.

The gasket ports scribed out.
https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t...amp;oe=5AAFEEC1

It squares up the exhaust ports on the end. I'll have match up my header flange, but that isn't a big deal since I haven't done final welding on the header flange.
https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t...amp;oe=5A8DA0A6

Roughed in.
https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t...amp;oe=5A98B6A3


Unfortunately the valves I had are not for this head. Thought they were, but are not =/ So that's going to be an extra few hundred dollars for new valves.
Posted by: THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/19/17 07:51 AM

I do a similar lead-in on a mill on my heads. But If I were to go straight in at 90* like you show I would hit water on my crummy old Ford junk, so I angle my mill head at 15* so as to gently taper it toward the rough port casting wall and minimize the possibility of too thin walls in the roof of the ports.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/19/17 09:01 AM

Hot off the presses. All I can do is show pictures, I trust Nick is doing the right things. I did provide him with pictures of a sectioned head and he did mention before he started about sonic checking the thickness of the port walls. I told him if he wanted to do any fancy tricks like angle milling, etc, I was okay with it, especially since he has the intake too. I'm looking forward to seeing if he doesn't anything different with the chamber shape than I did (other than higher quality work).

Before any work is done on the valve side of the intake port.
https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t...amp;oe=5A8C9D4C

A rough cut.
https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t...amp;oe=5A9CF113

A very cleaned up port compared to a rough cut port.
https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t...amp;oe=5AAC0DCD

A closer picture of the intake port.
https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t...amp;oe=5AA5F10A
Posted by: efi-diy

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/19/17 11:56 AM

You may want to get hold of http://www.blackopelracing.com/

they have a number of rare OHC pontiac parts left over before they swapped in the 4200.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/19/17 01:27 PM

When I talked to them on the salt a couple years ago it sounded like they had gotten rid of it all.
Posted by: strokersix

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/19/17 02:26 PM

Oooh, thanks for the port porn! Pretty work.
Posted by: TheSilverBuick

Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six - 11/20/17 02:35 PM

All the port work is pretty much done. Going for final flow testing and maybe a few tweaks to the chamber or such, but on to ordering some valves, springs and retainers.

The difference in the ports! Glad I didn't finish my turbo header yet, I'll need to grind out some material to match up.
https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t...amp;oe=5AA4F729

This was a head I did in my garage.
https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t...amp;oe=5A8C8107

Intake.
https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t...amp;oe=5A9C2FCE

Exhaust.
https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t...amp;oe=5AAD03BE