I've been reading a lot in these forums and have decided after many sleepless nights that I want a Turbo on my 250. It seems like the perfect mesh of old school and high tech and that's exactly what I want. I started an engine thread last year and was truly introduced to the idea of an inline 6 Turbo by Snowman. I've since read his entire (18 page) thead twice, and picked up a 2nd edition copy of The Inline 6 Power Manual (great read) and feel up to the task.

I want to build something like Snowman, nothing crazy but I don't have the same time constraints he did, so I won't need to rush anything. My build priorities are:

maintaining at least 15#'s of boost;
getting the best back for buck parts; and
keeping mileage and operating costs low.

I have a generic list of parts that I need/want to purchase:

Turbo/BOV/Wastegate/Hat/Piping etc;
292 exhaust manifold;
Intake manifold;
Air and boost gauges;
Turbo Cam;
Forged Pistons;
Meth/Aid Injection;
Fuel Pump
Carburetor; and
HEI.

I understand there will be other misc parts and labor but at least I have a parts list to start keeping my eye out for.

I think it's important to mention that I'm not a mechanic, and have very minimal hands on experience with engines. I'm book smart and can use Google like I built it, but I don't know a lot of what would seem like common knowledge to a lot of car/engine enthusiasts. I came here to learn and I like to read so please don't feel the need to dumb anything down too much as I'm happy to research every word to figure it out.

Just a refresh, it's all going in my 67 Camaro backed by a turbo 350 tran. I won't be touching the tran until it blows up on me. I wish I could tell you what the rear end is... stock?

Engine compartment picture - Old but she hasn't really changed


I plan to document everything and eventually index the build here, so I will start below and edit this some day...

So... I'd like to get some opinions on parts so I can assemble a specific list of parts to find:

- Junkyard HEI distributor or Pertronix Ignitor (or the like)?

- Carbeurator? 2bbl Holly 500cfm? something cheaper/better for same value?

- Clifford or Offy intake for Turbo application?

- Turbo sizing for my build intentions? I'll likely roll the ebay dice but we'll see what the locals have to offer.

- Meth injection system... any recommendations?

Thank you in advance.

Ian

The stock rear is most likely a 1 leger with a 3:08 gear set. Which should be okay for your turbo build. because you just don't need a lot of gearing.

I use ALKY control. http://mysite.verizon.net/res11pgkr/vehicles/customkit.html

Best knock control IMO. http://jandssafeguard.com/ purchased through : http://www.american-pi.com/corvair/corvhome.html

Intakes, I would choose the OFFY over the Clifford.

The same turbo I picked for snowman would be a low cost choice.

If you are not too handy with fabricating etc, one of these
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1980-Pontiac-Tur...=p2047675.l2557
would be your best bet along w/a J&S safeguard http://jandssafeguard.com/

MBHD

@TWISTED6 - That's good to know as I've wondered if there would be a significant advantage to replacing stock gears. I'm sure at some point I'll crawl under there and take a peek to confirm the ratio.

@MBHD - I've read extensively about your alky system and it seems perfect with the exception of its price. There is a used universal one (Alky Control brand) with the reserve not met on ebay now, so I may keep my eye out for a deal on it. I'd love to hear your opinion on the use of an alky system as more of a "intercooler" (with some detonation prevention) with the use of 91-93 gas, but windshield wiper fluid or straight distilled water as the injected liquid.

As far as the knock sensor, is it something that most turbo users install or is it an extra preventative measure? I don't want to detonate, but I probably can't afford to buy every preventative "bell and wistle" if it can be avoided with common sense installation and tuning practices.

I figured that the Offy intake was the way to go. It's cheaper and more available and I know without a doubt that it clears the 292 exhaust manifold. Consider the Offenhauser 5416 intake on my list.

@EVERYONE - I've read that various members of this board (ie. TWISTED6 & TLOWE) have access to lots of new and/or used/custom turbo related internal parts. I'm very interested in keeping the internal parts in the mid quality range. I don't want to mess around with dollar store cams and semi-half-baked-forged pistons. If you have access to a decent part at a fair price please post it up as I'd like to support this community by keeping some of the purchases "in house".

Ian

The only cheaper priced unit that works pretty good is the Devils own Alky system, but there cannot take 100% methanol as the Alky control system can.
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/19-universal

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Devils-Own-Unive...fbcd63f&vxp=mtr

While data logging running 25 psi of boost pressure I have recorded manifold air temps of 59 degrees F when injecting 100% methanol while using pump 91 octane.

I believe all newer cars have knock sensors installed from the factory.

Adding a knock sensor to a turbo charged engine in my opinion is highly recommended because you cannot always hear detonation where as a knock sensor will pick up knock & retard your timing accordingly.

Snowman never installed any knock senor/timing retarding devise & I am most positive he could never hardly ever hear his engine detonating as he ran an open pipe exhaust system with no muffler.(TOO LOUD to hear detonation)

If you ever get a chance to data log an engine that has a knock sensor, knock retard light/s, you can & will see an engine will knock/detonate & you cannot even hear the detonation, a J&S safe guard system is highly recommended & my has saved my Syclone engine many times.

Certain "winter" windshild washer fluid is the better one to use as it should have methanol in it.
Straight distilled water is OK but does not & will not make as much power as injecting 100% methnol, plus adding too much water does not burn & will put out the spark more so than adding alcohol.

It is safer to run a 50/50 blend or 60/40 methanol/water.
Plus it is cheaper to use a water /methanol mixture,, if that is a concern.

MBHD

@MBHD - You've sold me on the Devils Own Stage 2 Water-Methanol Injection Kit. $355 new on ebay is reasonable and a worthy addition to my shopping list. The J&S Safeguard system is awesome and I'd love to have it but the cost ($700+) outweighs my budget, for now. I will continue researching it, and alternatives as I progress.

@EVERYONE - Is this 292 Intake on Ebay for $123.77 the I want? It looks right to me but its cheaper than the rest and doesn't say that it's 2.5". Perhaps someone can confirm by sight. The same seller has a separate auction for $234 but it includes the gaskets (extra $110), but Summit sells the gasket set for $11, so I don't know what's up with that.

Ian

In addition to the above, what do we think about this KOSpeed T04 Turbo on Ebay for $230? I've copied it's stats below for quick reference:


I'm really more interested in whether this Turbo is suitable based on it's sizes as I already understand the risk of buying a no name part on Ebay. Once I have an understanding of the size, I'll research reviews for brands and sellers.

Ian

That turbo is too small on the turbine side.
.50 A/R is way too small, engine won't breath.

Did you find what Snowman used for a turbo?

This is something like snowmans turbo http://www.ebay.com/itm/Universal-GT35-T...f2ed441&vxp=mtr

The turbine wheel is a little small but it should work OK for you also.

MBHD

This one has better specs. Plus it has a V-band exhaust outlet,= much better seal, no gaskets needed.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CXRacing-Univers...552b9ab&vxp=mtr

Air Inlet 4"
Compressed Air Outlet 2.5"
Bearing Journal Bearing
Turbine Housing Flange Standard T4
Exhaust Outlet 3” Vband
HP 300~500 WHP
Cooling Oil and Water Cooled
Working Pressure 6-25 PSI
Compressor .70 A/R
Turbine .68 A/R
Compressor Wheel 61.3 /82 mm
Turbine Wheel 62 /67.8 mm



MBHD

@MBHD - Yikes, I didn't notice the low turbine a/r. I also forgot that snowman used a gt35 turbo with t04 housing. That explains why iI had a hard time finding the specs I wanted.

I like the 2nd one you posted as well, price is reasonable and the seller rating is well over 500 (unlike the first one). Now that I have a better example of what I need, I can spend some time exploring other options. Thanks for looking for those links.

MBHD, you wouldn't know if that 292 manifold (3 posts up) is the correct 2.5" one would you? The outlet is centered over the 4-5th cylinders and it has 3 holes. Any thoughts?

Also, you have any ideas for the ideal carburetor for this 12-18psi 350-400ish HP build? Snowman used the Holly 500 but I recall a lot of fuss around it, and wonder if there is a better choice.

Thanks again,

Ian

I think your going to be a lot higher HP than your 350-400 HP goal, just make sure you prep the engine for that kind of power output. Once you step up to this level, you really have no choice but to pony up and get the necessary higher end components required or you'll end up like Snowman and spend your money twice or three times redoing it.

Your T350 is going to misbehave with that torque on the 1-2 shift. You need a better valve body or kit at minimum.

You're right panic, having that much of an increase in HP and torque will show you real quick where the weak link is everywhere else.

I will chime in with my experience.

A holley 2300 500cfm will do just fine. Just don't drill your PVCR 's too big from the start.
MBHD recommended you a great turbo.
You will have to get a AEM wideband to tune it properly.
You must be able to cut and weld exhaust tubing or pay out the nose for custom work.
Run the Offy intake.
Keep in mind, 15 psi is a whole lot for these engines. I run around 4-5 psi and have been up to 10.
Forged pistons are $$$, if you can properly manage detonation, cast will do just fine.
The stock cam will work well with a turbo. I did a custom turbo cam, but think it was overkill.
Keep in mind about your fuel system and how to boost reference it. I am running a stock mechanical fuel pump that is boost referenced. Any more boost in my setup, I would need to change to a electronic fuel pump/ regulator setup.

Good luck, it's an awesome ride!! There is nothing like the sound of a blown inline 6.

Boucher'

PM me if you would like a build sheet to reference.

A lot higher than 350-400hp? I wanted to keep it to 400hp at the most. Don't get me wrong, the power would be great but I don't want the fuel economy to go right in the toilet as i'll probably use it as a daily driver (short distances) during the week and then boost everywhere on the weekend. So I want to be able to drive it with decent mileage and then stomp it for boost when need be.

I have nothing against the Holly 500, and I should be able to find one easily enough.

I might decide to drop a few items, like the pistons and cam as they will cost a pretty penny (with associated machine shop labor and whatnot) so that I can get this all sooner, and get other items to compliment the build (J&S Safeguard maybe). I want a strong build but I don't want to get it done and only use 5psi to keep it in my target hp range when it's capable of 25psi. I can always do the internal upgrades later.

I have no method of cutting or welding exhaust tubing, but I have a family member that can, so I'll do a mock build up and then take it for welding.

I decided against the pertronix ignitor idea, don't like the idea of having to carry a spare one. I've also sent a message to that ebay seller about the 292 manifold, it's a decent price if it's the 2.5" one.

I'm gonna start looking at fuel pumps, but if anyone has a recommendation...

Ian

If you drop back to 6-8 psi that should put you back in the HP range your looking for.

Is that 6-8psi with stock pistons, cam and other internal parts?

Ian

In a perfect world when you have exact engine management and correct fuel distribution and no hiccups along the way, then some stock components can live at that level, but given the perfect world scenario rarely occurs, then extra insurance with quality parts is sometimes the only thing that helps protect your investment. If you happen to achieve the upper end of your goal and reach 400 HP, you have increased your engines stock HP output by over 2-1/2 times what it was from the factory, I just don't think many of the stock components have that much of a safety factor engineered into them to last for long.

Well from what I read, the stock cast pistons can handle it, if ran with "respect" and detonation kept in check. I want to take my HP goal slow and steady and install the alky system to help with that. The cam is probably a bit on the mediocre side for turbo performance but isn't at risk of failing. Which parts would be the best to upgrade to prevent a failure that could ruin my investment?

Ian

The attention is in the details. If you send two exact engines to the machine shop, one for a stock rebuild and the other for a turbo build such as yours, the paths they each take through the machine shop will quickly become much different from one another. There are many fine details and machine work that are necessary for the turbo engine that are not usually required for the stock engine or even a mild performance build-up, its not just in the parts alone. Getting your cylinders nice and round with a quality bore and hone job will also need a torque plate, but you won't need to do that to a stock engine rebuild.

O-ringing the block is also a possible upgrade you might need to perform. At the least, quality ARP rod bolts and main studs are one of those upgrades that are going to help make your engine last at this elevated power level, but also require the rods to be reconditioned and the block align honed. Adding those components is going to require additional machine work as mentioned to use them, adding more expense, but also an extra measure of strength and safety. Balancing the rotating assembly is going to be a another area you will need to explore and perform. As you can see, the machine shop bill alone starts to climb higher and higher almost at a proportion to the amount of HP you want. But when you start pushing the power levels twice the original and beyond, theres just more to it than bolting parts together.

When deciding on which power plant to go with, I had it down to a 327 V8 or this Turbo 250 build. Either way I had planned to do some kind of a rebuild, and expected a moderate amount of machine shop and internal part costs. The way I see it, I would have had to have the block machine work done anyway, so adding more to alot for the turbo performance is not only expected, but welcomed as I'm not interested in cutting corners. I do appreciate the warning on the extra costs though. The "Power Manual" and a few engine rebuild videos have helped understand what machining will be required. Plus, I want to have it that, once all done, I have the option of someday changing the tuning from 6psi to 12psi, without having to worry about the internals and the corners I cut. That being said, 400hp is probably the highest I'll ever take it.

I really need the help, more than anything now, to assemble the parts shopping list. Once I get that done, and it seems like I have almost everything, I will change gears and beg for tips on the build process. I foresee this being a lengthy and cautious project.

On a different note, the seller of that 292 manifold hasn't replied yet

With the alky kit, running a water/meth mix, do you guys think an intercooler is warranted? I know MBHD had a 30" x 18" with 3" piping, so I've been looking for similar sizes on Ebay already.

Thanks,

Ian

To make the HP you are seeking with a 250 is going to require it to rev considerably higher in the RPM range to produce its power compared to a 292 or longer stroke engine, even with a turbo. This is going to keep its operating RPM range in an area I wouldn't be comfortable with day in and day out with cast pistons. Probably 90% of any problems you will have with a street turbo engine is going to be related to piston/ring failure, either because of detonation, improper piston design even if using forged(top ring too high, crown thickness too thin, wrong material, etc...)and/or fuel management related issues causing piston failure(improper fuel delivery system, insufficient volume, etc...).
So to start with, I would highly recommend a quality forged piston. And you'll likely need to get them custom to get the correct material, ring placement and crown thickness needed. Followed up by a premium ring package. The rest is just basic simple ABC's, like ARP rod bolts, main studs, head bolts or studs. Premium rod and main bearings are a necessity as well, but your machine shop can likely source those parts for you when the time comes, followed up by the required machine work to complete the build.

Yeah I feel that the cast pistons are a weak spot as well. I'm sure I could run with the stock ones, for a while, and with low boost they could be OK. However my goal is 350-400hp now, I can only imagine my desire to turn it up a notch once I get a feel for the power. I think I'll keep the pistons and cam on the list. Any suggestions or places where I might inquire about best bang for your buck forged pistons?

Ian

Ian,
I would always recommend to use an intercooler. They are cheap$$ on eBay & no reason not to use one. The piping kits are cheap$$ also, just do your research on better quality ones, thick tubing ,rolled beads on the ends, multilayer silicone hoses 3-4 layers.
Don't let people talk you out of getting a intercooler because you are only running 6+ psi of boost pressure. Even @ 6 psi of boost pressure, that compressed air is hot!

Using an intercooler provides a cooler dense charge of air to your engine & the cooler the charge, the less likely you will detonate, so,, why not use one?

As far as the intercooler I have, I bought that big of one because I will eventually have a better flowing cylinder hear & do not want a restrictive intercooler. It is 4" thick & it was about $180 or so @ the time I bought it, but they are not as cheap anymore as they became more & more popular.
Example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/150588365700?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

This size intercooler would be way overkill for your app & is not needed. Plus this intercooler is actually bigger than the radiator core support cutout on my 69 Camaro. It is bigger than my engine radiator.

An air to air intercooler is your best bet & is more reliable than trusting your alky injection is going to work all the time, you can run out of alky while boosting, solenoid goes bad, wiring , plugged nozzle, etc. An intercooler is non electrical & is low maintenance as compared to an alky system or even an air to water intercooler.

Don't get me wrong, I have an air to water intercooler & an Alky control methanol injection on my Syclone, but you need to stay on top of it & make sure it is working @ all times.

Tlowe knows what industrial combine 2.5" exhaust manifolds on Ebay are. Tlowe?

MBHD

There is this one for $115 free shipping
I emailed him to see if it has a 2.5" outlet, waiting for his response

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-1-4-8-230-250-...1fb0004&vxp=mtr

MBHD

Building a turbo engine of any kind from scratch can be overwhelming for sure. There are so many more absolutes to consider that aren't always required or needed for a regular non turbo engine. Its good to hear you are not wanting to cut corners, it can be expensive to get all the intercooler stuff and other tthings Hank is recommending, but in the end it will all help to protect your investment and give you the best results as well. Tom Lowe has forged pistons on his website that are design with turbo useage in mind, so you can start there or search other manufacturers if you like. Keep us posted on your progress, you will get all the help you need right here.

Just found out it has a 2" outlet Sorry.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-1-4-8-230-250-...1fb0004&vxp=mtr


MBHD

I'm having issues with that link MBHD... Is it just me?

Ian

It says it was just removed.
It was just a repost of the earlier post of a manifold w/only a 2" outlet.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-1-4-8-230-250-...1fb0004&vxp=mtr

MBHD

Yeah, I was under the impression that the 292 manifold that had the outlet in the middle (between cylinder 3-4) was 2" or 2.25" and the one I posted above, that has the outlet centered over cylinder 4-5 was 2.5". The one I posted should be 2.5" but it's so much cheaper than the rest I don't want to risk it. I'm still waiting on the response from the seller...

He replied and confirmed that it was the 2.5" outlet. I've since bought it and it should be available at my US pickup place by Wednesday. 1st part of the turbo build is on the way, I'm excited! Probably carb next and rebuild kit and then HEI. Then I think the turbo, unless I see something cheap along the way.

I'll be sure to post pics of it when it comes, more for me then anyone else :-P

Ian

For tubing, you can go with stainless 409 (it rusts), 304 (no rust), or aluminized mild steel. Choice is yours & your budget.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-5-45-180-409-S...c2351d7&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vibrant-2609-2-5...75cabc4&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-5-45-180-Alumi...7283115&vxp=mtr

A 600 DP carb would work nice.

Just some ideas.

MBHD

That would be good to post some pics with a measuring devise (in the pic) showing the actual ID.

MBHD

just like driving a regular motor, stay off the throttle and there will be no diff in gas milage --step in it and you start feedin' th' hosses!

stainless 409 rusts?-never seen a cafeteria counter-top rust --thats what they are made of. 304 is a common architectural grade, 409 as well as other grades stainless can get a rust stain put on them, but they wont rust by themselves.

Look @ factory exhaust systems nowadays, 409 stainless & they rust. Not saying they rust through & rot fast, but they do rust, Look @ what materials are in it.

http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=969
Corrosion Resistance

Grade 409 resists atmospheric and exhaust gas corrosion. A light surface rust will form in most atmospheres; this rust retards further corrosion but makes the surface undesirable for decorative applications. The corrosion resistance is about the same as that of 3CR12 and the 12% chromium martensitic grades such as 410, and inferior to the 17% chromium grade 430.

The price difference between 304 & 409 should give you a hint on what is better material/rust resistant.

If a magnet can stick to 409 stainless, which it does, that means it's gonna rust, no?

MBHD

The cost for the 304 is minimal in the long run. I belive I will get it to save any rusting or oxidizing.

MBHD, did you use an ebay intercooler piping kit to pipe from the turbo to the intercooler, and from the intercooler to the carb? And then one of the above pipes for the downpipe?

What do you guys think about the pros/cons of the Holley 500 and the 600 DP? Is the 600 going to be much worse on fuel? Is there one that is better than the other for my purpose?

Thanks!

Ian

"If a magnet can stick to 409 stainless, which it does, that means it's gonna rust, no?"

The magnet sticking means its gonna make a real good Fender Telecaster bridge plate that dont rust like the stock chrome plated carbon steel ones do--ours never have and ones been in use for ten years now. Ever seen a countertop rust? Theres a lot of them in restaurants and schools--no rust, no.

409 Stainless Steels contain a
certain number of surface inclusions
which are the normal result of titanium
stabilization additions to improve the
steel. Occasionally, rusting may occur
at these inclusion sites and lead to problems
with cosmetic appearance. As a
result, these steels are not suggested
for applications where surface appearance
is a factor. In cases where surface
appearance is important, 400 stainless
steels should be considered

The temperature at which 409 starts to
exhibit destructive scaling in air is approximately
1450°F (789°C). This is considered
the general maximum service
temperature for continuous exposure in
air. However, maximum service temperatures
will vary appreciably, depending
on the atmospheres involved

Like I stated, 409 stainless rusts.
"A light surface rust will form in most atmospheres"
304 stainless does not surface rust & a magnet does not stick to it, no carbon steel.

409 stainless is a low grade stainless. 304, 316 much, much better.
Its applications(409) are those where appearance is a secondary consideration to mechanical properties and corrosion resistance.
tells you there in black & white, secondary consideration for appearance, hence, it rusts.

Need to look @ exhaust systems on most all cars, surface rust all over. Does not stay rust free like 304 or 316 does.

MBHD

A 600 Holley should work good for your app.
Yes a 600 will be worse on gas when floored, but should be close to the same mileage when just cruising.

If you can find a 600 Holley w/4 annular booster venturi's (SP) should be better @ fueling.

I never used a 500 2 bbl Holley ,only a 350 2 bbl & a Rochester dual jet Large & small one. The 350 Holley I used worked good for mileage, but not too great for performance (too small).

I believe the 500 2 bbl Holley is like half of a 750, & a 750 Holley 4 bbl is a bit much for your app. Maybe a 500 would work OK, but not sure on the mileage as comparing a 600 DP to a 500 2 bbl Holley. I would tend to think when cruising a 600 DP would get better mileage than a 500, but I have not done a direct comparison, maybe someone here has?

MBHD

A Holley w/4 corner idles adjustment screws would be nice.(Hard to find)
Old Nascar carbs had these types of adjustments.

MBHD

This is nice but pricey
http://www.holley.com/0-80540-1.asp

http://www.holley.com/data/products/pictures/large0-80541.jpg

Personally, I always had better luck/performance using smaller carbs.500 CFM or so.
When I used 600's Holley's & 625 Carters AFB & AVS's I never got a crisp throttle response as I did when using smaller carbs, but I also did not spend a lot of time trying to tune them perfect.
This might a great choice for you. A 390 cfm HP series double-pumper (#80157 might be just the ticket? But,, to me , might be too small, I rather see a 500CFM DP Holley.

My engines were never over 254 CI either, so take that into consideration.

The best all around 4bbl carb I ever used was a 500 CFM Carter AFB.
I never had a bigger engine than 254 C.I.
I am going to fuel injection, now.

My favorite ever of all time Carbs are a set of 3 side draft DCOE Webers. Probably closet thing to F.I.


MBHD

@MBHD - After some hours of research I think I'll stick with the 2bbl Holley 500cfm. Seems like a solid choice for the power I want and won't be limiting. Plus there are a few people here that I can use as a reference when it comes to tuning.

I plan to buy a large (by eBay standards) intercooler with a black piping kit. The piping is 3" as the turbo is 3" so that is easy. My current exhaust system is nothing special and could use an overhaul I'm sure. Would I see a significant advantage in running a 3" downpipe to a new 3" exhaust system? Or would the 2.5" downpipe and current exhaust perform the same?

Also, what do we think of this for a downpipe: http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=251316090929

I've seen flexible stainless tubing for air conditioners and other appliances but this says it's for vehicles and is 2.5" 304 stainless. Sure would make things easy :-)

Ian

[quote=Ian67I plan to buy a large (by eBay standards) intercooler with a black piping kit. The piping is 3" as the turbo is 3" so that is easy. My current exhaust system is nothing special and could use an overhaul I'm sure. Would I see a significant advantage in running a 3" downpipe to a new 3" exhaust system? Or would the 2.5" downpipe and current exhaust perform the same?

Also, what do we think of this for a downpipe: http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=251316090929

I've seen flexible stainless tubing for air conditioners and other appliances but this says it's for vehicles and is 2.5" 304 stainless. Sure would make things easy :-)

Ian [/quote]
The 500 2BBL Holley will work fine.

I would run 3" downpipe & exhaust. Do not run that flex tubing. Garbage.
You will see an improvement in the turbo spooling up quicker running a free flowing exhaust system & intake system.
For exhaust and turbo apps, the bigger the better, you do not want any restrictions or back pressure.

I always recommend a muffler, straight through design.
For me I think running a exhaust system w/out a muffler sounds like a$$. But to each there own. Plus if you are driving in the city & the cops are out, no need to draw extra attention, & believe me, my Syclone is plenty loud when I get on it & I use a muffler, but, it is pretty quiet when just cruising around.

MBHD

I figured that flexible exhaust was junk but I thought I would point it out in case somebody had a positive experience.

Been trying to price/pick an intercooler of a decent size and have found what looks like a good setup from the same seller as the turbo MBHD picked.

CXMotorsports 31x12x3" Universal Intercooler for $120 and CXMotorsports 3" black/blue intercooler piping kit for $100.

I picked that intercooler because of the brand, it's bar and plate design and the core size. It seems like a lot of the Ebay intercoolers are large in size but have 21-23" core lengths. This one is only 31" long but has a 24" core size.

Any thoughts?

Ian

Ian,

the intercooler looks like a good choice for your application.
With proper positioning, you might be able to retain the stock hood latch.

You possibly could see if the seller has a combo sale for the intercooler & tubing kit for a better deal.

Does not hurt to ask or look further into there other auctions, they might just have a combo sale already.

I try not to use 90 degree tubing if possible & use more 45 degree elbows.

Example:





MBHD

Thanks for the pics, saves me having to keep digging through snowmans thread to look at them. Perhaps I'll be able to get a custom turbo, intercooler and piping auction from CXMotorsports for even more savings. I'll definitely ask.

Ian

It probably would be good to keep focused on this thread here for your build. Snowman's thread is a classic example of "What not to do" to your turbo build in a lot of ways, and might confuse you on the correct "How-to" aspect of what your trying to accomplish. He disregarded a lot of good advice from guys here on his build, and as you can see he had a to re-do a lot of things several times, so don't use his thread as a "model" for your build. Listen to Hank and others, and if the money or budget starts to get beyond what you expect, just take a break and come back to it when you can, don't rush through it.

@CNC-DUDE - Thanks for looking out for my best interests. I've read snowmans thread a few times and have bookmarked quite a few posts there as solid information to use as future reference. That being said, most of the bookmarks link to posts by other people providing advice to snowman that, like you said, wasn't heard or followed. I'd like to be clear that I have no intention of going rogue on you guys, but I will use outside resources for information and run in past you as I go. This is not a rushed process for me and I expect the part gathering process to take at least a year, even two. I have a small family and can only allot a small amount of money every month and my shopping is is growing in size and financial cost. I will not be cutting corners no matter how long it takes.

Thanks again for ensuring that I, and anyone else following understands the best practices of a project like this.

Ian

The 292 Exhaust manifold arrived today. I quickly checked the diameter and it's the desired 2.5". I don't know why but I always fear that people will say anything to sell an item on Ebay. Either way, it's confirmed. I posted a few pictures below for reference.

Below is a link to the picture album for my entire Turbo Build. I will post pictures in this thread too, but like the ones below, smaller than what will be in the album. For whatever reason, this site doesn't like the picture links from my google album, so links will have to do... for now.

My Camaro Turbo 250 Engine Build Photo Album


292 Manifold - View of ports - https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-nDQs0...20130825_120330

292 Manifold - Top view - https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-sd6mZ...20130825_120826

292 Manifold - Bottom View - https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-oBkST...20130825_120545

292 Manifold - Measured outlet - https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-061OK...20130825_120709


The angle and placement of the measuring tape wasn't great for the shot, but I can confirm that it is 2.5" exactly. The photo album has some other measurements.

I'm on the lookout for a sweet deal on the HEI distributor, Holley 500cfm carb and/or Offy Intake. I have almost no $ to spend right now... but if I can find the HEI or Carb for less than $50 or the intake for $120 (or less.. hah!) then it was meant to be.

If anyone has any spares or finds a local deal please let me know, i'm not against shipping.

Ian

Hah, bumping my own thread now. I've been reading some other turbo threads and found Tower saying the Holley 600cfm double pumper (4776) is better than the 500 because it's more drivable when not in boost and it's easier to tune. From a few quick queries, it's more available and just as cheap. Plus, no need to get an adapter plate for the offy. Should I stick with the 500 or is the 600 a better overall carb for me?

Ian

Who is Tower?
I also think the 600 double pumper is a great choice for a boosted application. Smaller primaries than a 500 2 bbl for drivability but yet the ability for extra fuel when needed for boost.

@TLOWE - Hah, I didn't notice but my phone auto corrected your name. I meant Tlowe. So, while you're here, would you recommend your medium lift turbo cam for my goals? Also, any thoughts on which of your forged pistons I'd want, the 5.7"or the 6"? It's hard to search for the answer to that in relation to my plans.

@EVERYONE - Any recommendations on a budget wastegate (kit?) for that GT35/T4 turbo? I found a chart that, if accurate, suggested a 60mm, but based off what I read, that's a bit overkill for my goals.

Ian

Ian,
you do not need a 60 MM wastegate. A 38 MM wastegate will work fine for you. 38, 40, 44MM will work. You do not want to go too big though.
Here is a nice one. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tial-38MM-wasteg...4d33641&vxp=mtr

http://www.bing.com/shopping/tial-sport-...RM=EGCA&lppc=16

My Syclone has an internal wastegate that has a 27 mm or 1 inch hole & it works OK for me & I run as high as 25 PSI.

I do not recommend you using a 27MM wastegate, just saying that what I am currently stuck with.

MBHD

I feel a bit cheap postin my pick after yours, but I was thinking something more like this:

SPA Turbo 36MM 6-22psi Adjustable Wastegate

I like the adjustability, 6-22psi and the price of course. I had heard of SPA before too, so that didn't hurt. Realize that it's a 36mm but it says it can do to 400whp with ease so I figured it would suffice.

Is it junk? And if so, do you have a more budget minded pick? Lol or is that already budget minded?

Ian

As far as wastegates goes, I say get as best as possible, but stay w/in your means.
Remember, this controls your boost & you should not skimp here.

That being said, people have used cheap ebay units & knock off HKS, Tial, etc with good results.

Just do some research & try to see if people have posted reviews on there products, forums talking about these different brand units..

I have not used any SPA wastegates, but I believe they are sorta popular in Brazil & seem to be OK.

MBHD

Either cam works nice. The larger cam will work better if the engine has a compression ratio of around 9, it has more duration.

Either piston will work, they are both flat top with the same final Deck Height.

I like the turbonetics products.

Hello... Found a carb. Seller says it's a Holley "8408"... And from my searching it's a common 4150 600cfm double pumper that was swapped when they swapped them as dealer replacements in the late 70s. I've posted a picture below, maybe someone can confirm that it looks like a 4150 before I snatched it.

http://db.tt/kwolzS97

Ian

I thought all DP carbs are dual feed?
Got any more pics?

Here is one like the one you posted. http://www.ebay.com/itm/HOLLEY-LIST-8408...=p2047675.l2557
Vacuum carb, not DP.

MBHD

Yeah I had pulled up a few eBay results and read all I could find on this 8408 and it doesn't give me anything to believe it's a dp. Too bad.

Back to the drawing board...

Here is one. Make offer!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HOLLEY-0-4776-2-...83112fe&vxp=mtr

& another

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Holley-USED-0-47...c66525c&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Holley-600-doubl...1cc677e&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Holley-4-Barrel-...0658902&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/holley-4bbl-4776...87de7ef&vxp=mtr



MBHD

I appreciate the listing. I've seen all the 4776 's, even the really junky ones and the ones poorly ddescribed . I'm still hoping to get an unrebuilt carb for around $50 or less.

How about this 650cfm one http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=271263611420

Ian

You would need a mechanical secondary carb, not a vacuum secondary.

MBHD

it seems you were quoting your quote and I was quoting mine--rather usual wouldn't you say? let me guess, you like what yours says best. no?

Did you find a V-8 project yet?
How's that non rusting 409 stainless LOL.

I wasn't looking, and yeah I haven't seen a rusty cafeteria counter yet

Go look under some old cars, you will see a lot of rusted exhaust systems. That is 409 stainless to the "T"

MBHD

That (with a "T") Junior, is a rumor
Now YOU go look for old rusted cafeteria serving and counter tops, that is also 409 stainless- another "rumor", no?
Surely, even a/c mechanics have probably read new construction building specification manuals stating that the project's kitchen counter and serving tops be...ta-dah! "giddy-up 409 stainless steel".
Why, I further bet if you had 409 stainless exhaust on your Nova you could back it off into your backyard pool and leave it for say, six years, and never see a bit of rust, and at the same time be saving a lot of stainless 300 series money that would be better used on pool chemicals and upper control arm bushings

This is some educational discussion here! :-P

I figured while my thread was being bumped I would update by saying my HEI distributor is in the mail. Scoured the Web for reviews and found a seller pushing a 65K coil'd one and it reviewed well (Ebay link to my distributor) .

I've been hunting for a good price (less than $100) for a Holley 4776 in rebuildable condition. I'd like it to have most of the parts and be in "working" condition, but in need of a rebuild. Question though, so I want a manual choke or electronic one? I've been looking for manual but am not sure what would be best for this application. This question just might show my lack of overall knowledge but I'd rather ask then get the less desirable option.

Also, does anyone have a suggestion for a fuel pump? I don't want a radical setup like snowman has, just a compatible, higher flowing fuel pump (at a budget price).

Thanks guys,

Ian

Snowmans idea for race gas was using a separate fuel tank & was to put 91 octane in it for 15 +psi boost pressure w/no intercooler & no timing retard devise. (that was the race, 91 octane race gas configuration )

The original tank was used for 87 octane fuel & limit the boost to 12+ PSI.

How much boost are you looking to go to?
Electric choke just means it does not need you to mess with it manually. More of a hands off approach.

A manual choke, gives you the choice it your engine needs a choke for cold starts. Cold weather starts.
A manual choke allows you to see if the engine needs more fuel when boosting by closing the choke a bit & see if the engine likes it by basically enriching the A/F mixture.
Or it it falls on its face because it is way too rich by closing the choke a bit.

The distributer looks nice, hope it works out for you.

MBHD

Only time will tell with the distributor. Took a risk with the eBay cheapo but I wasn't happy with the prices of the nos ones and the aftermarket coil in cap ones (with a well known brand) seem overpriced. I know all the components are important but now that I have the distributor body, I can always replace a cheap internal (coil?) with a good one if it fails (or test out the "lifetime warranty").

I intend to keep it filled with 91 and I'm keeping my eye out for a deal on the Devils own stage 2 water/Meth system. I'll probably do at least 50/50 water/Meth. I will be getting the intercooler, BOV, piping and turbo from that Ebay seller, "CXRacing" mentioned earlier (he cut me a deal for the whole lot). I like that SPA wastegate I mentioned before so I'll likely get that. Will be getting the turbo cam and forged pistons from Tlowe. The 4776 carb (now looking for electric choke) and offy Intake. Obviously some machine work during the rebuild as well. I'm going to hold off on the timing retard device for now.

With the above installed and tuned, my goal is 12-15psi. I'm obviously interested in power, but fuel economy is a close second as I intend to drive it as a secondary vehicle, but all year around. I know the milage is going to suck, but if I have to drop to 10psi to save big money at the pump, I probably will. I think it's going to be a matter of finding a sweet spot in there. Let's put it this way, I want it to be able to do 15psi without breaking much of a sweat. I'd rather overbuild once and have it max out at 80% of its capability then be pushing it to 110% all the time. Also, this method allows me to change my mind someday and set it at 17psi and not worry about the pistons or intercooler I wish I had installed.

As far as the fuel pump, I want something as close to the stock look and operation as possible, at a reasonable price, that's going to give me adequate fuel for the above, and work well with the meth/Water system.

Ian

Why do you think the milage is gonna "suck"? It will only "suck" when you are making the boost. You wont be on boost unless you want to and that will require you to be getting in to the throttle.. When you are driving like a citizen you wont be on boost, not making gazillion horsepower, not draining your tank by gallons per minute, not experiancing hardly anything different than you did with the stock version. Thus no different milage--in fact there have been a few situations where milage can improve during the non-boosted driving experiance due to the better atomization of the air-fuel being "whipped up" by the turbo's compressor--now at the same time dont count on it--I said "sometimes".
It takes a certain amount to propel a vehicle down the road at any different speed. Different vehicles-different hp requirements. An Old 1600 MGA might require say, sixty hp to go down the road at 60 mph. And at the same speed an MGB will require more hp due to its larger frontal area (which is why they had to put bigger 1800 engines in the B--kinda embarassing to the factory to have the older car be able to go faster).
Your throttle is your horsepower maker, the drain valve to your gas tank, and your turbo is the pump, so if you dont need the extra horsepower at the time, dont activate your horsepower maker, or your gas drain valve or your pump and you wont be using anymore gaoline that a stocker. But all that magic horsepower is very addictive, so spend the money for the safeguards, the forged pistons, the intercoolers, the water/alky injectors and magic timing adjusters--'cause they will always be there thinking "careful" when you aint. Oh yeah, dont worry 'bout the 409 stainless, the vendor will love to sell you the 300 series for your exhaust pipe!

Thanks for the info. I just figured that the stock fuel milage would be better than the post-turbo configuration, even just because of the extra barrels on the carb. Haha, I will probably go with a full 3" 409 exhaust once it's all running. The overall appearence of the undercarriage of my car is not a concern of mine. Ill probably colorize the engine e components a bit but I'm not going to get carried away.

Ian

409 stainless is good for exhaust systems.
Many car manufactures use 409 stainless material for there exhaust systems, last a long time, but it does rust & this is OK when appearance is not a priority.
Ian67,
you made a good choice.

MBHD

1

2

I think he was merrky stating it has inclusions which "could" and j mean could like te sun coul fall out of the sky be cause you never know

But he himsel has never seen one rust

Moderators please delete the posts that does not pertain to the nice 67 blown Camaro. It would be nice to stay on topic & not be called out by snide comments. Also, if you could please just delete the rants that does not make any sense from PNC, it just does not belong here. It is detracting from the blown 67 Camaro. Thank you.

Here is a prime example "Besides, sometimes other trades have good applications to cars--like chrome drawer pulls when used in grilles, or "D" shaped aluminum extrusions used for intake manifold plenums, or dump truck ratio gears used in passenger cars--you got to be able to "think outside of the box" to be able to complete our backyard poolside projects in an economical manner-why buy a $250,000 program when a 300 dollar Mega-Squirt system will work just fine--just ask DIY"

My apologies Ian.
I deleted what I could.

Time to clean up this topic & get back to the blown Camaro.

Yes... Let's stop this debate here. I have no control here but since I started the thread, I'd like it to focus on the original topic. You guys are obviously both very knowledgeable in your own right and I appreciate the information and opinions you've both provided me. I will probably continue to beg for all your help, but this 409 steel business is now overdone.

Ian

Phew! Glad that is done.

Yeah me too--but i got copies of all

To encourage a subject change, anyone have any suggestions for a fuel pump?

Also, I do research these things but even if I find things that I believe will work, I like to get your thoughts as experienced turbo users. I just don't want you guys to feel like I'm here to get spoon fed every little thing. Every thing you say
that is researched and evaluated.

Ian

For a fuel pump you should look for something that is going pump enough volume & be @ least 3-5 psi above of your target boost pressure.
You should talk w/turbo6 here on the BB. He has been turbocharged & blowing through carbs for a long time.

I have only supercharged & blown my 250 6 through 3 DCOE 48 MM Weber's & only was able to get 8-10 psi out of my Paxton, planetary drive damm balls would slip

MBHD

Personally, I would go with a electric fuel pump and a fuel pressure regulator ( boost referenced).

The EBay HEI Distributor arrived today and looks good. I didn't get a chance to hook it up today but I can only hope it works as good as it looks. I won't carry on about it as I know it's not really a turbo specific upgrade.

A few pics for those interested:







Found a SPA Turbo Wastegate, Fuel Regulator and Blow Off Valve that I like, but having trouble locating a suitable electric fuel pump (at a similarly suitable price of course). Next purchase will probably be the Offy Intake.

Ian

Anytime you can increase the output of the ignition, that is better suited for a turbo app.

When running higher boost, you need to close the spark plug gap.

Don't even think about running a wide gap like .045" +, it will snuff out that spark.

A distributor cap w/brass inserts helps, or is that copper?

I used the Holley blue, or was it the red pump that pumps approx. 20 PSI? So I ran 9-10 psi boost pressure, w/the Holley pump.
This was it, the blue one is higher pressure, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-12-802-1/overview/
I just shimmed the spring a bit for more output.

With the Holley blue pump output, you could only go up to 10 psi of boost pressure approx.

This one would be better, but the output is just a bit more pressure 16 psi but more volume.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-12-150/overview/

A little pricey, 18 psi pump, but could run up to about 13 PSI of boost. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/maa-5250/overview/

MBHD

Yeah, I'm sure the HEI is a much needed upgrade regardless of the Turbo build. It has brass terminals.

I have a feeling this pump won't work for my application, but I'd hate not to ask. Talks a lot about EFI and being a good "booster" but says it's universal and can be used on it's own up to 500hp. Not sure if it's ONLY EFI or if it will work in a carbureted application:

MSD 2225 Hi Pressure Electronic Fuel Pump - http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/msd-2225

Ian

I do not know for sure, the GPH might be too low? 43 GPH.

If you could ask turbo6 here AKA Harry, he would probably recommend a pump for you to purchase from a vender.

MBHD

I decided to limit my boost goals to 13-14 psi... Which is probably more than than I need anyway. I'll do it with this 18psi pump from carter:

Carter 4601HP 100GPH 18PSI Fuel Pump (But Off Amazon for $99 and free shipping)

and the following regulator...

SPA Turbo Fuel Pressure Regulator

Unless I hear an objection, the specs and reviews of both look good to me.

Ian

That pump should work, usually those type of Carter pumps are not too loud, but maybe that one is since it pumps out 18 PSI?

I have heard just the standard IIRC,the 5-6 psi Carter pumps, & those are not too loud.

Is that regulator a dead head type of regulator, meaning the fuel pumps to this regulator & has no return line to the tank?

MBHD

Yeah I like the look of the pump and I read a review on amazon saying it wasn't too loud for the amount of pressure.

The regulator is harder to get info on but I've heard great thingsut SPA Turbo. Here is the link to the official site that shows the real image of the part:

SPA Turbo Fuel Pump official English site

From what I've been read elsewhere, there is a fuel in, fuel out, boost reference and return line (to tank) port. I belive the bottom "outlet" is for the return line. The big question now... Is that what I want? I was under the impression an electronic fuel pump would come with the side effect of the need for a return line.

edit: found Source of info for SPA Turbo regulator installation

Ian

I would get a regulator that has a return line that will go back to the fuel tank, I do not like a dead head style regulator myself.
I used one for my blower application (a dead head regulator) it worked OK, but I think a regulator w/a return line would be a better way to go.
My old blower set-up.


BTW, Douglas my friend from Brazil says SPA products are good quality.
I had helped Douglas w/his Chevy Opala & for helping him out, he sent me a large SPA blow off valve, what a nice guy Douglas is.

The quality of the B.O.V. looks good, I have not tried it yet.

MBHD

Yeah, I intend to get this SPA Turbo BOV at some point. From what I gather, they release a fine product at a competitive price... Which suits my plan perfectly.

Seems that finding a deal on the Offenhauser 5416 is not easy. Been searching Ebay, Google and using seaechtempest for huge Craigslist hunts but no real luck. I'm taunted by a recent completed Ebay auction where someone won one for $98. I can't belive it, I'd love a deal like that.. Hah, at this rate $200 is almost a deal.

Ian

I met with Douglas and a few of his friends at Orlando Speed world a few yrs. back and what a great bunch to have met in person.

Took a bit of a risk and bought a carb off craigslist. I know I'm supposed to get the Holley 4776, but this Holley 81850 is, for some unexplainable reason, also a double pumper with mechanical secondaries. I'm guessing someone took the 81850 body and swapped out bowls and the throttle plate. Either way, it looks like a 4776.

Obviously missing a few screws and in need of a rebuild, but for the $50 I paid, I couldn't ask for much more. I'll find a suitable rebuild kit and clean it up nice. Any thoughts on the model or what you see below? (click images for full size)









Ian

Hope it works out for you.


MBHD

Been a while since I put an update on here so since I had some new part pictures I figured I'd throw them on. I've finished the body/paint, upgraded to power steering (tough to find parts) and swapped the rear suspension since my last update. Other than the power steering pump, the engine looks the same

Shortly after I purchased that Frankenstein'd Holly 600 DP carb I found a highly reviewed complete rebuild kit on sale on ebay for $60 so I scooped it. I had the seller add a few other parts that weren't in the kit (floats and stuff) just to make it actually "complete". I cleaned it up with simple green and rebuilt it. It's now wrapped and sealed in a box with some of those anti-moisture packets (to keep it fresh). Carb with rebuild kit total $110. I was too stunned to take pictures of the rebuilt carb but here is the kit I used...



I also acquired the rarest (read: cheap used) part on my list, the Offy 5416 intake. Got it off ebay for $100 shipped as it needs cleaning and a mounting bolt hole repair. It didn't look too bad to me (see bottom pic) but I have a friend who can fix it for free. The same guy who will fabricate the down pipe and assist with routing it all.









Sorry for the excessive pics, I like to document well and I will not let them go down as I hate broken images/links.

I just ordered a set of custom plug wires and intend to get that HEI installed in the next few weeks. Once that's in I think I'll be hitting some OT at work to buy the Turbo/BOV/Wastegate/Intercooler/Piping combo from CXRacing/CXMotorsports. I've been following their reviews for years now and aside from their intake manifolds they seem to produce solid components.

Thanks for the continued advice...

Ian

As a fellow 250 first gen owner I look forward to watching your build. Hopefully you'll stay a few steps ahead of me so I can cheat and copy off you.

Here's a pic of mine as she sits now (well... almost. I upgraded the wires recently. Smoothed out the idle quite a bit).



Same HEI. Same intake. I painted my intake Chevy orange and used a file to rub the paint off the raised letters and logo. Came out nice and easy to do.

That HEI is going to interfere with your fuel line. SHouldn't matter though with the new carb since you'll be running all new line anyway. Don't forget to remove the resister wire from the firewall to the HEI. Beyond that installation was easy. So far I've had no problems with it at all. It's big but it's a nice unit.

With an HEI upgrade, remember to use a 10 gauge wire to it. Don't use the factory wire.

MBHD

Thanks for clarifying. That's what I did.

On another note: When I did mine I pulled the plug from the firewall (located below the brake booster), unwrapped the wire all the way to the split, removed the connection from the plug (I looked for instructions online but can't find them at the moment), connect the new wire to the plug, and re-tape it all. No new holes in the firewall. Factory look.

Thanks for the replies. Nice to see someone else is working on a similar project. I wouldn't hold your breath about me staying ahead, I took two years just to rebuild a carb and buy an intake. That being said, the engine is pretty much all that's left now. I like your orange/letters look. I've tossed and turned about orange or black for some time.

I'll confess I've read THESE INSTRUCTIONS about 15 times over the last two years but haven't gotten around to it. I'll be sure to pickup a piece of 10GA wire instead of the suggested 12-14GA in the linked article.

Ian

Okay, so I've arranged a budget for this and should be able to buy everything I need to finish the whole build by the end of the summer. I'll likely take the car off the road after summer to get it done.

Also, I've done some reading over the last couple years and have decided my original goals for boost/HP were a little higher than what I actually want/need. I'd like to obtain 300-350hp and from what I understand that can be attained with approximately 8-10#'s boost with my intended setup. (my original goal was 15#'s with a solid 400HP).

With my new goal in mind, I'd like to finalize my shopping list so I can be sure to get the right parts. I'm in Canada and will likely cross the line to pickup items as shipping to me is ridiculous. Here it is with predicted Canadian prices:

CXRacing Universal GT35 T4 Turbo 3" w/Comp @ .70 & Turb @ .68 - $400;
CXRacing 31x12x3 Bar/Plate Intercooler w/3" Piping Kit - $275;
Spectre 9849 Single 4" Carb Plenum - $100;
12bolt / ROSS Forged Pistons - $700;
DevilsOwn Alcohol injection Kit DSM Stage 1 - $300;
Universal Blow off valve with 3" adapter flange - $50;
SPA Turbo 35MM adjustable wastegate - $75;
Air/boost gauge - $50;
Oil/Fuel lines & other <$30 parts;

292 exhaust manifold - $100;
Offy 5416 intake manifold $100;
Holley 600cfm 4776 DP Carb - $100 Rebuilt;
HEI Distributor w/65000w Coil - $80;

The above list puts me out a solid $2400 on parts. Obviously machine shop and other parts (cool windshield pillar gauge pod) will be extra.

I may still decide to pickup a Devils Own Water/Meth kit but I'm just not sure I need it given my new goal. Also, I originally planned to pickup a new cam from 12bolt.com, but I'm not sure it's needed as apparently the stock cam does well enough? I think I can get away with modding my fuel pump with a boost reference, especially since I just installed a new fuel pump a month ago. Any thoughts on my choices? Please feel free to point out even obvious missing parts from my list as I'm not as smart as you'd think and might not know I need it.

Ian

Looks like good sized turbo, the carb hat, I would look for the ones that has a split runner inside as to direct the airflow better to the primary and secondaries.
Stock cam is too anemic and will severely limit the engines output.

Well if it's going to make a significant difference, I'm happy to add a new cam/lifters. I've found these two, any thoughts or recommendations?

CompCams Magnum™ Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft - $235 CAN

12Bolt Small Lift Turbo and RV Type Camshaft - $300 CAN

Ian

I would not go with either one of those cams.

Using a methanol injection kit will make it safer to run when boosting.

You can run a smaller jet & it will make your intake charge really cool & not add so much methanol as to change the Air/Fuel ratio.

Pic of a better design carb hat.
http://www.theturboforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=599312&d=1351543771

You do not need to buy an off the shelf camshaft from Comp Cams, you can tell them what you are building & they can recommend a camshaft for you.

I would look for something around .480-.500" lift range.
204-212 range degrees duration @ .050"
And have lobe separation on a 114-116 range.

MBHD

Thanks for the input. I've decided to get the stage 1 DevilsOwn kit as it's priced fairly and will give me the added saftey and cooling I want.

That Extreme Velocity hat you posted is great, but why can't it be half the price like the Spectre one. I get the EV's are supposed to flow the best, but when the cost is twice as much I have to start wondering when I'm spending beyond my means. I will keep my eyes open for a used divided EV for now.

The 12bolt cam I posted before is:
Lift .488
Duration 212 @ .050
113 Lobe separation

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but aside from the lobe separation, it seems to be within the range you suggested. Again, a little on the pricier side than direct from comp, but a good pick otherwise right?

Thanks for your help,

Ian

I do not like the split duration on that camshaft & would like a wider lobe separation than 113. That other carb hat will work, just not as good IMO.

How about this cam:

Isky 231-TA Turbo Cycle A @ flatlanderracing.com
Maximum economy/torque. Turbocharges. Up to 7 PSI Boost. Smooth idle. Stock converter. Std. axle ratio. Up to 650 CFM Carb. RPM-Range (1000-5000) Valve Lift (.485 .455) Valve Lash hot (.000 .000) ADV Duration (264 252) .050 Duration (208 194) LC 114 231-TA $195

I think I'll go with the spectre hat unless I can find a used EV one. Is an easy swap if I decide to upgrade in the future. Would rather spend the money on internals that won't be in easy access. I think I'll get the cheaper hat and get myself a lump kit with the savings. My father in law says he has the required taps and bits needed for the install so it's bang for buck seems like a no brainer.

Ian

That cam is OK, it will spool the turbo quick, but, I like a camshaft with even exhaust & intake duration.

That camshaft will not make much HP.

Do you just want to have low end power & not much top end power?

MBHD

I'm more interested in consistent power while maintaining decent fuel economy. Daily driver cruising but good torque and power when mashing the gas. I'm constantly watching and reading articles on cams but so far the specs mean almost nothing to me.

Ian

If that's the case, I would go with the last cam you posted.
Isky 231-TA Turbo Cycle A

7 PSI is not much boost pressure, you can really feel it when you see 10-12 PSI.
Don't get me wrong, you will feel 7 PSi also, just kinda ho hum with only 7 PSI, that 7 PSI is at the point where you are just going to want more & more.


MBHD

Yeah, I saw that and wondered if it would be limiting. I'd rather get a cam that would support higher boost if/when I decide to push the envelope. For now I'll be happy with 300'ish HP but that might not last as my goals change.

I wouldn't have expected formulating a shopping list to be this hard... But I'm having fun with all the learning.

Ian

Edit: what do we think of this other 12bolt cam? A bit more lift but lobe is ideal:
Medium lift Turbo Camshaft
This cam is a special custom grind for turbo use. RPM Idle- 5000. Idle quality is good with a noticable sound. Will also work good as a non turbo cam. Custom ground by Competition Cams.
Hydraulic lifter
Lift .521 Intake and .512 exhaust
Duration @ .050 218 Intake and 212 Exhaust
114 Lobe separation.

Ian67,
My first cam you listed is not a split duration unit. Works great for general street use and will provide good fuel mileage.

Infact, installed it is in the 250 the boy and I are using in the 41 Hudson pickup. No plans for turboing it, yet.

My second cam is the same one used in the Elco. This one is split duration. It get's 17-18MPG going 70-75 at about 2500 rpm. Just had a customer use this one and get 450 hp and 497 tq in a 292. He is putting it into a early 50's Chevy pickup.

Just to be clear, we're talking about the Isky 231-TA Turbo Cycle A?

I just woke up and it reads a little foggy to me.

Thanks hank

Ian,

The Isky 231-TA Turbo Cycle A cam will most likely give you the best mileage between all the camshaft choices you posted.

HP wise, it will be one of the lowest.
I think that turbo camshaft has been around since the 70's. old school turbo type specs.
Split duration though. Again, not a fan really.

Need to know exactly what HP goal you would want to grow into & not change the camshaft during the process., if I am reading you correctly?

I am not a fan of a split duration camshaft for a turbo app.
So I would not recommend one.

Use a camshaft with a wide lobe center of 116 & wider for a better way to go IMO, it will give you the mileage you are looking for & still be able to make good power.

Camshaft specs for drag racing will be different than what you are looking for.

HP & TQ dyno numbers are just numbers & just bragging rights.
Lets post some ET & MPH numbers.
The 65 Elky makes how much HP/TQ & what MPH & ET with the Comp Cam you are currently using?
292, turbocharged ,intercooled, EFI, 3:55's, 62-1 Turbo, SPA turbo manifold, Clifford intake, straight pipe exhaust, no muffler, what else does it have?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz2UaM3i-gQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1TtDeFfzZs

With this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NU7n3kOWe8

I always wondered why he has a Offy intake on it?
After all the engine dyno testing proving the Clifford intake the better choice, (putting myths to rest about the intakes) made the most HP etc, etc, yet, install a lesser performing intake manifold? Never ever recommending an Offy intake for any application, he only recommends a Clifford.
Does not make sense.

All I have ever said , each intake has there design purposes.
This intake design looks much better than a Clifford.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161462168269?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

MBHD

Hank,

I put on the Offy intake for the wagon, like has been said before, it was the only heated intake available at the time.
Why don't you offer up some real world testing?

My Elco in 2008 made 243 HP at the tires and 320 Ft lbs( I think), since then it had dividers installed in the intake ports and much tuning. Not sure on the power now. Street car, not drag car.

Hank says
"HP & TQ dyno numbers are just numbers & just bragging rights.
Lets post some ET & MPH numbers."

You always talk about the old days and how fast your car felt. And how it did against your buddy's car. Sounds like bragging rights to me.

How good does your Camaro do in the 1/4? Not seat of the pants, time slips.

My street car daily driver Camaro, way back, ran 14.3's @ a 3000ft + altitude track. Not fast in my book, not bragging by any means. I thought it was slow as I kept on getting beat by most V-8's at the track.
It was really a nothing special 250 6 cylinder, but I kept tuning & tuning, R&D to try & get the most out of it.

4 bbl carb, headers 10:1 compression.
Have time slips.
YouTube was not around then to post videos.

I never ran my faster combinations @ a track because when you street race you don't go to tracks for everyone to see your times. Even though you can put no time on your windows, guys in the tower would still post them accidently.

In the real world of street racing, not dyno racing, I have raced & lost many times.
I once owned a 1970 Dodge Dart 340 Scat pack package.
Took that to the rack & ran 14.2-14.6's
With that car I raced a 1969 440 GTX Roadrunner & lost be 5-6 car lengths @ the finish.
The following week same car, 440 GTX guy asked me if I wanted to race, I was hesitant, because I did not know (at the time how my Camaro would run)so I said sure, we lined up & I beat him really bad on the launch, he just gave up, he asked to run again, so we raced again, this time full 1/4 mile pass & I beat him by over 10 car lengths.
Sorry no time slips & is just hear say.
This was when I used to run a Nitrous plate system on it., Nobody could see it because I made an aluminum sheet metal cover that covered the entire intake manifold.
This same GTX Road Runner would clean house normally @ the street races, it was a pretty quick car & was not stock.
One of my prouder moments back in the day.
Street racing back them were done on low to zero traffic industrial streets, not like what you see kids street today with cars all around & innocent bystanders.

As far as my friends I raced against on the street, not really bragging, just saying about what my car could do when racing a good friend that would go to the track 2-4 times a month.
Very good comparison in my book, no seat of the pants feel to it when you race against a car that goes to the track 2-4 times a month, (very consistent car & driver BTW).

The only time my Camaro felt moderately fast to me was when I had a Paxton supercharger on it, approx. mid to low 12's not blazingly fast, not bragging, no time slips, to show. Sorry to disappoint.

Maybe 12's are really fast to you?

My Car just sits & rots away, so no new time slips
When ever it gets to run again, it will still be a street car.
Never ever wanted it to be a drag car, was always set-up to handle good, lowered, front & rear anti sway bars, Koni shocks BBC front coil springs.

How is your 65 El Camino drag car coming along?

320 C.I.ish 4.125" bore, 12 port head, should run 13's?

All in good fun.

MBHD

All good videos and information. I'll obviously be sticking with the offy for 3 reasons... It's heated for my daily driving, it's the cheapest and I already have one.

As far as cams go, I can't seem to find anything that perfectly matches your recommendations. I've got emails into Isky and compcams about their recommendations and the potential of a custom cam. I really want to achieve at least 300hp. If I could get more into 325-350 that would be great. In the long run I'd like to get a cam that won't hold me back if some day I upped the boost to get closer to 400. I'm not sure I ever will, but I don't want to be limited by internals. I can deal with needing more turbo, meth or octane but the cam/lifters and head work should be ready for 300-400hp with a focus on acceleration at mid speeds. I don't need it to do tire smoking burnouts but I want a wicked "passing gear" type performance out of it. I hope this sheds some light on may goal.

I just re-read the last 5 posts and noticed TLowe replied about his cams and I missed it somehow. I appreciate the info on those two cams. I'll likely go with the 2nd one you mentioned unless one of the cam company replies lead me astray.

Ian

Ps... If it can't chirp tires I'll cry inside

Got a reply from CompCams about the custom grind. This is their reply...

"We would certainly have to custom grind one for this so I am thinking that a 218/218 .499/.499 on a 114 lobe separation would work the best in this one. That should allow it to spool quickly and make good power in the mid-high range as well."

Similar to what you suggested Hank. What do we think about it for my goals? Do we concur with his choice? Are there custom grinds ultra expensive?

Ian

Ian,

I would go with that grind.

Should meet your goals, have a nice idle & knock down some descent mileage.

A custom grind last I checked is not that much more than an off the self grind.
Can't remember off hand, just a guess, $50 more??

It really is not all that special for them to do one for you, input the numbers from there master cam catalog, but my price might be outdated, & ,, since they do not offer what I recommend & what they recommend, I would spend the extra $$ to get what you want.

MBHD

Yeah, I got another reply. The cam takes 3-5 days to produce and will cost $186.15. I can get them together with their 812-12 lifters (Hydraulic Flat Tappet, Chevy, 0.842 Dia., 1.99 Seat Height, Set of 12) for about $245 total. As a comparison, the 12bolt prices are better than fair as they come with the break in solution as well.

Still waiting on my spark plugs and wires to put in my new HEI distributor. @Gbauer do you recall how long your new fuel line was?

Ian

So you are saying for $245 you get a custom grind camshaft & lifters from Comp Cams?

Or you can get an off the shelf cam, (no lifters) from Tom for $250?

MBHD

Nope, I can get the custom grind cam and lifters from CompCams for $245 OR the custom grind cam, lifters and break in fluid from 12bolt/Tom for $250. So the price difference is $5 but you get the fluid from Tom. Also, I think Tom's cams might have extra machine polishing... I could be mistaken about that though. Either way, if Tom sold the grind I want, for the price he sells his others, I'd buy it from him as it's a slightly better deal.

I think it's a no brainer to get the cam Comp Cam recommended.

I highly doubt Tom is doing any extra polishing.

I don't think Tom will get you a better price.

I would use this break in fluid:

http://www.amazon.com/Competition-Cams-1...ds=cam+break+in

Not just this http://www.amazon.com/Competition-Cams-1...ne+break+in+oil

MBHD

I can offer the same price on any custom grind.
Every cam that goes thru my shop gets polished on the bearing journals by me. On a crankshaft polisher. Try to get a video tonight, got to do a few.
All cams come with a packet (paste) to apply to the lobes. The oil additive just does more to help the break in period.

That's great, why don't you offer a better camshaft for anyone other than what is offered from you website?

Or, better yet, on your website you can offer any custom grind for the same price?

Trying to get rid of your inventory or?



What exactly does polishing a camshaft from a crankshaft polisher offer, better warranty?

No need to post a video, thank you.

MBHD

The best deal for me is to "stock " the part. I order in quantity and get better pricing/ free shipping/ better service/ ect. The cams I have fit very well into most peoples builds. The custom cams will have a higher cost for shipping. They will not be drop shipped to the customer.

I will post a video about the polishing. The journals tend to be rougher than acceptable for me and am thinking the roughness promotes bearing failure. Just doing my part to turn out the highest quality possible.

Wow, this reads like their is some bad blood between you guys. Either way, I'd like to see the video(s) when they're posted.

Just to be sure I didn't misunderstand that Tom, you could get that custom cam I want, with the lifters and break in fluid for the $250 you normally charge?

Ian

No bad blood at all.
Trying for vendors to offer more products, make better power or just options for our engines, instead of just pushing what they just on the shelves.

Suggesting for a vendor to say on their website, I can get you any custom grind camshaft you want, does not mean bad blood. Just a suggestion to help with sales.

Quote:"I can offer the same price on any custom grind."

"Quote" The custom cams will have a higher cost for shipping.
So, no, it will not be $250.
I can see why you are confused.
It is hard to say when you see two different statements.

Tom,
How thick is the surface hardness on those camshafts, & how much material is being removed to get a smoother surface?

Here is the tool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we1zLj-skGg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un1IZ_uaL_Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8OaIpaDucM

MBHD

You are correct, the extra shipping will add some cost. When bought in bulk, I get free shipping. One cam at a time is not bulk.
Here is some examples of polishing the journals. I have seen cam bearings destroyed after a replacement cam was used. I think it boils down to the journals being too coarse.
Not much material is removed, just enough to provide a smoother finish. I processed a few cams tonight in between machining bolt patterns into 25 valve covers. That CNC ROCKS! 1.36 minutes per valve cover (machine time). My old method on the Bridgeport, 20 minutes per cover.

I'll probably check with my machine shop about cam polishing before I order but if it's not available locally and/or isn't a fair price, I'll order it through Tom as it'd be nice for it to arrive smooth and ready to install. Great pictures of the polishing BTW. Tom, perhaps you can start stocking that cam I need before I need to order it, I think it'd be a great addition to your offerings!

Also, good polisher links Hank. Wouldn't have thought to look into it but it seems like a worth while step for the cam.

Ian

I would think if there is a problem with Comp Cams cam journals, they would have a recall on them.
Same if the dimensions were incorrect.

Sometimes, when the surface is not real smooth it actually holds & retains the oil for better lubrication.
Like having knurled valve guides, knurled pistons.



Ian, after you dyno test your new engine with the new grind, that would be a better way to advertise it's potential, most important, how it drives,, does the boost come in quick, mileage etc. Real driving impressions. A dyno is a good tool for adjusting, & tuning an engine, but does not compare to actual driving & give first hand knowledge of your experience.
And if the results were good, then maybe Tlowe would stock it.

MBHD

We had a problem back in the day with a certain clutch company. Had put 3 of their clutches in our Firebird, every one kept frying very prematurely. We contacted the company over and over, they kept saying it had to be something on our end, they weren't experiencing any other problems. Not even a year later, we come to find out that they had someone working there who was intentionally sabotaging their clutch plates on the assembly line. They then admitted fault, although I'm not sure if we ever got any money back out of it.

Companies often won't admit their mistakes until they have to... not saying whether or not it's a problem, just playing devils advocate.

I will admit that when I was reading this thread it definitely seemed like there was some tension, I don't know how it could read any other way. I hope that this isn't the case and it's just words being taken the wrong way. There is so few in the inline community that we can't have 2 of the most active members against each other.

Yeah.. I read it the same way but it doesn't really affect my decision making as I can evaluate the options and go from there. Sometimes hearing two sides is helpful.

Oh, and I wasn't serious about tlowe stocking that cam. I was joking as if he did stock it, I wouldn't need to pay extra shipping. It was the cheapskate in me encouraging a deal.

That being said, I'll gladly post dyno results at the end as I'd like to make sure everything aspect of my build is documented. I know Camaro Performance Magazine likes solid references for their cover cars

Ian

Went to go pickup my new HGK plugs/wires last week and found myself having a hard time breathing in the car. I had left the heater on the day before and while warming it up it was obviously sucking air from the engine bay inside. After a minute of concern I popped the hood and was greeted with a surprising amount of smoke. It was quite obvious the exhaust manifold was cooking oil. This was frustrating but intriguing at the same time as I've never had this engine apart. I tried tightening everything but it didn't help. Seemed apparent the gasket was the culprit. Was surprised I couldn't get at one of the manifold bolts without removing the power steering pump. Also gave me a chance to put some nice clean brass plugs in place of the hideous smog rail (was taped off anyway). The manifold gasket was black and tired looking on the firewall end. New gasket seems to have solved it. The kit came with a new donut gasket for the down pipe but it was considerably thicker than the crusty original, creating a gap and a fun ticking sound when accelerating. I had to take about a third of it off and really crank it tight to get a proper seal. Overall a decent $15 experience I'm glad happened in my driveway.


Yep, that's duct tape. It's the thought that counts!

After that side track, I received my new plugs and wires. Ordered them off clubplug.ca which had the best canadian shipped price. I couldn't find a inline 6 set for less than $90 locally so ordering online was the only option. I live on a small island so common part prices are sometimes inflated. Wires are HGK part number 51416 and NGK V-Power plugs were part number GR4 2635. Wires and 2 boxes of 4 (8 total) plugs ran me $56.29 with free shipping. Unfortunately they only came in blue with orange boots.



I have the new HEI distributor, red 12ga wire (didn't have 10ga in stock and 12 seems acceptable), firewall plug connector, plugs/wires and a new timing light that I hope works. I'm going to start the points to HEI swap in about 4 hours. The plugs are pre-gapped at .040" but I've read going to .045" or even .050" is better for HEI. Any thoughts? I've read some say the fuel line will need to be completely replaced to go around the bigger dist cap and others say it can be "massaged" to fit. I hope it doesn't fit as I'd like to be forced to invest in a braided 6AN line with filter. I've always had in line filters on previous cars and not having one on this car kills me inside. God knows what kind of debris is getting pushed thru there.

For fun, I think I'll make a video of the whole process. I've found several write ups with great info but a video would be great. As always, I'll post here when done.

Ian

p.s. I figured out how to make these images click-able for zooming purposes. I'll try to remember to do this from now on.

From what I remember, all, HEI factory installs use 10 gauge wire. I would think there might be a reason for that.

Also, most manufactures will use what ever is cheapest & can get by with.
10 gauge wire cost more than 12 gauge wire. I do not think they would just throw in something that cost more for no apparent reason. Just a thought.

No tension with my comments, just typing what I am thinking about.

MBHD

I agree that a bigger wire is needed. But , need to also add. Years ago, I was driving a 1967 Chevelle 4 door with 250 for a work car. 50 mile round trip daily for years. Popped in a HEI and used a jumper lead with alligator ends for most of that time to run power to the distributor. It always started! I miss driving that car.
Got pulled over one day by a State Trooper. The driver side window would not roll down, it also had a side exhaust. I had already sold the front bumper/ grille and rear bumper (they were pristine) swapped out old parts and ran without the grille. Used fog lights for turn signals. Any way, he could not believe the car would even go past the speed limit.

It's funny, I got started on the swap today and as I was looking through my parts I realized I ended up with 10ga wire after all. I'm wondering if it was on the wrong rack. Either way, that solves that.

In other news.. I'm stuck. Turns out I got the wrong firewall connectors so I couldn't get the wire run all the way. Second, I can't find TDC if my life depended on it. I've watched every timing video and read every thread I can find and I can't figure it out. Paper towel on hole, it pops out after a quick engine cycle (jumping starter) and the balancer mark is like 3-4 inches (advanced) of "0". I must have had that paper towel blow out 20 times and it's consistently way off. I'm not sure if the balancer mark is incorrect, or the "0" marker is the wrong part but I'm kinda stuck. I was gonna try the process on cylinder 6 in case I was passing TDC into the exhaust stroke. Perhaps I'm jumping to far by using the starter and I need to turn it manually? If so, pull the plugs and put a bolt on the balancer and turn?

My new, hopefully correct, firewall connectors come in the morning so I'll be back at it tomorrow. I spent about 3 hours trying to figure it out today so I'm hoping to go out there with some ideas so I don't spin my wheels.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Ian

Best to, bump it till you get compression, then turn it manually till the piston reaches TDC.
It's a little hard to get it just right, but you should be able to see the damper mark for TDC, if not, damper might have slipped?

MBHD

Take a old sparkplug and gut it of the porcelin and electrode. Thread the inside for a bolt about 4" long to be used.
Screw it in to the head and use the bolt as a dead stop.

Caution, do not use the starter! Turn the engine by hand!

Bring the piston up to almost TDC and mark the balancer, do the same from opposite direction, mark again. Divide the marks. That is where TDC is.

Outside again, I've got the belts off and gloves on, spinning the harmonic damper is useless. I read the damper is 2 parts and joined by a rubber ring. I tried grunting the damper clockwise by hand and the outer portion turns (part my gloves touch) but the middle part connected to the crank stays still. The pistons don't move when I turn it either. So my damper is shot? Can I just get a new one and swap it? Does it just press/pull on/off? I have limited tools and think I'm in for a speed bump.

Perhaps I can find a way to turn it with the 3 holes, and find Tdc, then mark it on the inner portion and use that Mark to do timing? Might not be perfect but I need to get this on the road again.

Ian

They do have an interference fit on the crank snout, so you will need a puller to remove it and if the crank was drilled and tapped, then a correct balancer installer could be used to re-install it. With the engine in the vehicle, it will be slow going and tough trying to tap it back on with a hammer(not recommended though).

It will need to be removed ASAP and replaced, it is only a blink away from slinging off the end of the crank if you can move the outer ring by hand. There have been fatalities before from them coming off with the engine running, so don't start it up again!

Arg, I have the hammer you say not to use but nothing else. I live on a small island with no tool rentals. Their are a few old timer mechanics here you might be able to make shorter work of this but I've never had the car in before and was trying to do everything myself. I'd have to have it towed in and everything.

Ian

Couple things:

HEI and fuel: I had to re-route mine. Don't force it too much or you'll end up buying a fuel pump along with the braided line. Don't ask me how I know...


You can see mine here:



For the wire: I took apart my firewall plug and re-used the connector that the resistance wire used. Nice and clean. If you google it there's a couple of websites that show how to do it.


As to finding TDC: Take out all the plugs and the fan pulley is easy to turn. Hold your finger over the hole and you should be able to find it. Once you think you have it TDC look at the timing indicator on the crank pulley and if it's at or near 0 you have it. If you don't see the mark you're not at TDC.

It's easy to get 180 out. You'll know it really quick when the car doesn't start and backfires on you.


edit: well all this is out the window until you fix the damper issue.

Having limited access to tools often limits your abilities for sure. I'd check with some of those old timers and see if they may come to you or loan you what you need. Another problem with using a hammer in the car is you don't have a lot of room to swing it, and it becomes a real slow process, plus the shock of using one can easily separate the outer and inner rings and cause the new balancer to fail also. That, and your applying that same impact directly to your thrust bearing with each swing.

Yeah, I've reviewed the use of the puller/installer tool and understand I'd need to tap/thread the crank to use the installer. I don't have any taps or anything so I'd have to buy everything. I've got a call into the parts store and they're getting me a price on the damper and whether a sister store off island can send over the tools I need to rent/borrow.

Im a little nervous about the tapping/threading part with never doing it before and working inside the engine Bay. I suppose I could pull the rad and grill to make room.

Ian

And of course a drill if you didn't have one of those.

Lol, we'll I do have a drill and common tool box bits. I have mostly woodworking tools. I found a post here that suggests the damper can be heated which allows it to be slipped on with ease and maybe only light hammering required. Still no reply from the auto parts store. Obviously they aren't as motivated as me.

Ian

Point of interest.
I ran both Isky Turbo Cycle cams years ago and the one that Crane and Comp recommended back in the 80s. The STOCK REPLACEMENT Chevy truck cam of the day ran better than any of them at any boost up to about 14psi.

If you can, post those specs on those cams that ran worse than stock.

Isky would probably still recommend that same grind but I think the Comp Cam people would recommend something different depending on your goal/mods.

What those companies would recommend in the 80's should be different than what they would recommend for todays applications, if not, they need to update there master cam catalogs & update their staff.
Just my two cents.

MBHD

I got the new balancer installed today. I ended up getting it from Amazon.com for $60, but I had to cross the border to get it. Removal was impossible without pulling the radiator and fan. The puller I borrowed was home made and had 3 hooks on it, but the hooks grappled the outer ring and pulled it clean off the inner ring. The rubber seal cracked into about 10 pieces. I managed to use 3 x 3/8" bolts with the puller to yank the rest off, but it took a lot longer than expected. I opted to try the stove top method to install the new one. I put it face up on my stove element for about 3 minutes on high (I stood there holding the belt grooves until I couldn't hold it any more) and then ran it outside with gloves on and pushed it on the crank by hand. Got it about 9/10ths of the way on but ended up having to wack it about 10 times in the center with a rubber mallet, but it went on super easy. Probably took about 8 minutes to heat & install the new one.

I put it all back together with the new HEI and it works pretty good at what looks like 6' advance (3 lines advanced of zero). That being said, when I was coming home from a test run, I had the pedal down all the way and was going about 15mph up a steep hill I can normally zip up (30-40mph?) without issue. Once it leveled out I could feel the car accelerate quickly. Seems like I have some hesitation at the low end. Not sure how that has come up. Perhaps I need to play with the timing some more or double check all my connections.

I've got a little over a grand in the turbo savings... it's about time to buy some parts. I'll probably get the engine parts first and save the eBay stuff for last as my chances of a DOA return are better if I don't have it for 5 months before I try it.

Thanks for your continued support.

Ian

My friend that used to own my Camaro before me & including me used to just beat the damper back on w/a hammer & piece of wood, many times, (being 17-18 years old @ the time) we did not know any better, but, nothing ever happened to the engine, thrust bearings looked good, crank good, no damage what so-ever.

I later drilled & tapped the crankshaft for a damper bolt for easier installs.

MBHD

I've read about people hammering them back on, and others who claim it's not good for bushings and whatnot. I'd rather just be "safe" and near burn myself with the heat method. Once I have the engine out I'll thread the crank for next time. As an update, I adjusted the timing for initial and total timing and it goes like a hot damn now. What an upgrade for the cost. If it wasn't for the balancer it would have been a lot quicker too.

I've got the Transgo 350 1&2 shift kit on the way for my TH350. Looks like the Transgo kit was more popular than some others and since cost was similar I went with it. I've watched a couple installation videos (including the dated official hour long Transgo one) and have a good idea how to do it, but is there anything specific (certain springs?) I should do to have it setup for the turbo? Perhaps I just install it now and then tweak it later once the turbo is in?

Ian

Transgo make good shift kits.

If you like the tires to bark going into second gear & 3rd, that is a matter of choice, as long as it shifts quickly & not so harsh, it should be good for a turbo app.

If you set it so it shifts harsh into second gear with a turbo & regular street tires, it just might want to get loose on you too easily.

MBHD

I have the B&M kit in my th350, I went with the heavy duty placement rather than the street strip since my car is heavy. Installation was easy peasy. Took longer to get the trans out of the car than it did to install the kit.

Not sure about the transgo but they sound reputable. You'll love the way the car drives. Much better overall performance and I imagine better transient response with boost = less lag = more smiles per gallon.

Yeah it was either B&M or the Transgo and I rolled the dice with the Transgo. I understand the kits come with several spring configurations that will affect how hard the gears shift. I'd like it to be more noticeable than stock but not too hard. Anyone used the Transgo who can comment on this?

Ian

Today I installed the TransGo shift kit. The kit provided several spring combinations but I went with the stock governor springs and the Orange "competition/prostreet" spring on the 2-3 shift. Took me about 4 hours to install, a solid hour involved removing the tranny mount bar (crossmember?) as I couldn't access the rear pan bolts. Not too difficult but with cleaning and finding the right tools, it took longer than expected.

I test drove it before and after, noting some obvious improvements after the fact. The gear shifts are a little harder, and it holds first and 2nd longer than before. It's quite obvious the late shifts allow for quicker acceleration and more power between gears. Being able to manually shift is wicked as I can really stretch 1st out and roar down the street. Manually switching from 1st to 2nd is satisfying as is responds well. It's also really nice to be able to downshift when going uphill as it always wanted to crawl uphill in 2nd before.

Much fun indeed. The engine is running well and I don't think there is anything else I can do before I rebuild it for the turbo. Guess it's time to buy some parts.

Ian

I want to start ordering parts. Turbo, intercooler, piping, hat, BOV and wastegate. Having these parts now will allow me to mock up the placement and fabricate whatever piping is needed so less work is required during the rebuild phase.

I had planned to buy SPA Turbo brand BOV and wastegate but it seems they have discontinued the models I wanted and raised prices. Good for them, bad for me.

So now I'm interested in Wyntonm brand parts. They seem to rate well as a budget brand and are within my price range. I have selected the following two, do they seem appropriate for my 8-12psi goals?

Wyntonm 44mm BOV w/3" pipe
Wyntonm 38mm 10psi Wastegate

I think the BOV will be fine, but I don't quite understand what the wastegate psi (10 in this case) is referencing. Does that mean anything over 10psi will be diverted to the downpipe?

Ian

The 10 PSI means, that approx 10 PSI is the minimum of boost pressure your engine will see.
If you hook up a hose onto the wastegate fitting, apply 10 psi, the wastegate will start to open.

So anything over 10 psi of boost pressure, the wastegate will be open, & will be vented to wherever you have plumbed the wastegate piping to., Back into the downpipe, separate mini wastegate exhaust system.

Note: If you plan on having the wastegate exhaust plumb back into the downpipe, you will want to have it join into the downpipe further back( further away from the turbine wheel)
Minimum 18" downstream of the turbine wheel.

The way the exhaust enters the wastegate is important also as important the way the wastegate exhaust is introduced into the downpipe.

Here is mine.





This one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/38MM-2-BOLT-RS-S...406&vxp=mtr

Minimum boost pressure can be 5 ,10, or 15 PSI, by changing out the wastegate springs accordingly.

I would get one (wastegate) that has a few wastegate springs so you have the ability to adjust whatever boost pressure you would like.
10 PSI of boost is a bit high, just to start off with.
You need to start off with a lower boost pressure, just to be safe & gradually add boost pressure when you get your tune figured out better.

MBHD

@MBHD

Thank you for clarifying the psi spec. I recall now the SPA Turbo brand wastegate I chose was adjustable to allow some control of boost.

The one you posted looks good but for consistency I've sent a message to Wyntonm asking if theirs are adjustable, and if so, if I could add some springs to the order. Would be great to get even more options 3-5-8-10-12-15. Especially the lower numbers as I figure it all out.

I've got it in my head I want to stick with 3" piping wherever possible, is that smart or would 2.5" be acceptable for my goals? I'll need all new exhaust anyway so I may as well do 3" but it could save me a few bucks if all I needed was 2.5".

Ian

Forgot what your power goal was?

A 2.5" downpipe will work OK, that is what my stock downpipe Syclone has, but I would like to have a 3" downpipe.

On a turbocharged engine , you do not want any exhaust restrictions, no matter what some people say about needing exhaust backpressure, don't listen to them.

I would go with a 3" mandrel bent exhaust , all the way.


MBHD

My power goal is (currently) around 325hp... give or take 25hp. I will be going with the 3" pipe as it's easy to just buy and replace everything with 3" and be done with it. I like the future proofing idea of 3" anyway.

I've spent several hours reviewing my choices and snagged a deal on the original SPA Turbo Wastegate I wanted for about $70. It's has a 6-20psi variable adjustment nut on top that fits my needs well. Would have been nice to set it below 6 but... I was considering a low of 5 with the other one, so whats 1 more gonna hurt

I looked further at the Wyntonm 44mm BOV and discovered inliners member, Boucher used it on his 250 and supported it with a clip on Youtube. For the price and the seemingly decent reputation among budget turbo brands, I went for it for $54.

Anyone know if I can use flat top forged pistons out of a Chevy 307? I may have a line on a NOS set and it seems the bore sizes match but I'd hate to grab them and be disappointed by a lack of compatibility. I have found several sources indicating they are interchangeable, but not specifically related to turbo builds.

Ian

I have used forged flat top 307 SBC pistons.
Low compression ones & higher compression ones.

These are the higher compression ones: http://www.ebay.com/itm/L2314F-PISTON-TRW-FORGED-060-OVER-NON-COATED-SKIRTS-/311097672858

Lower compression ones:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/307-CHEVY-FORGED...748&vxp=mtr

The lower compression pistons have a design that will expose the top ring more so over the higher compression pistons do.

You can use either one IMO.
I would use the higher compression ones, if you have the choice, but the lower compressions pistons will work fine for the power level you are looking for (not much boost needed)

I have used the lower compression 307 forged TRW's & ran a lot of nitrous though the engine & had a lot of bad detonation going on at times & they stayed together just fine..

MBHD

I appreciate the explanations and examples provided.

I found this set of what appears to be interchangeable forged pistons. I've confirmed the interchangeability on a couple sites but what I'm not sure about is their condition. Looks like they've been sitting in a worn box for their whole life and may need some tlc. I've sent a message to the seller about it but with the pics provided, are they usable?

Ian

Those are cast pistons.

The links I posted are forged pistons.

MBHD

Bah, I noted they were interchangeable with the high compression forged ones, but obviously they don't need to be forged to be interchangeable.

I'll have to keep my eye open for a set of forged ones. Unfortunately that seller you listed only has 1.

I've seen a couple offenhauser carb hats and really like the look of them. If anyone here has one or knows a good source for one please let me know.

Thanks,

Ian

Can you use standard bore forged pistons?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=307%...tons&crdt=0

http://www.ebay.com/itm/307-CHEVY-FORGED...748&vxp=mtr

MBHD

I had originally replied with a long speech about how I don't know anything about pistons but it was too sad to leave posted, so I've stayed up late to learn about pistons so I could answer somewhat intelligently.

Can I use them... Maybe? The engine runs well and with no known issues. That being said, I have no idea what mileage has been put on it and I've never had it apart. It's very possible the cylinders are in mint condition and will require no work, allowing the std bore. However they could be worn, or bored by a previous owner.

I guess the real question is, what oversized piston should I get that will work in almost any situation? I've noticed some of the ones listed here so far have been .060" over, which seems to be above average. I expect a shop could bore the cylinders to fit the pistons but a shame to bore that much if they only need .015" or whatever. I have made calls and do not have a machine shop locally, so the most efficient option would be to get my car off the road in a few months and let the machine shop tell me what size to get. However that might not work either as the block will be sent off island and getting pistons to them could be very time consuming.

Can oversized forged pistons be shaved down to a smaller size? Better yet, can I buy +.060" pistons and have the shop shave them down to the appropriate size once they know what that is?

Ian

No, pistons are not perfect cylinders and have some taper to them, particularly at the crown.

Dollar for dollar, the best price per value on pistons is Tlowe's .040" forged pistons. Unless you have some rare block just bore it. The only real shame in boring a turbo engine is the thinning of the cylinder walls, so you may want to sonic check the block first. If the walls are already thin, it probably isn't a very good block to use as a turbo engine to begin with.

I do like the idea of going over .040" and boring the cylinders over to suit. I originally planned to (and still may) buy Tlowe's pistons as I appreciate brand new items with modern fabrication. Also they are readily available, which seems to be the main problem with this NOS stuff as it's obviously hard to find and I'm late to the race. For quick reference, I've made a list of known compatible flat top forged pistons:

L2314F - high compression 307 pistons (+/-$250)
L2402F - low compression 307 pistons (+/-$250)
12bolt's Ross 250 pistons ($600)
Sissellautomotive's 250 pistons ($625)

The list is currently in priority purchase order. If it gets close to rebuild time and I haven't found a good NOS set I will definitely get the 12bolt set. They probably are the best quality choice (even tho I know nothing of Sisselautomotive's product) but this build is going to have inevitable cost issues and I need to be cheap whenever possible.

Ian

Purchased the CXRacing turbo I've been stalking since the thread started. I noticed the seller has been upping their prices over the years and the original $270 priced auction was about to sell out so I committed. To preserve it's details (as auctions end and sellers disappear), here are the specs:

CXRacing Item #CXM-TRB-GT35-2-T4-68 GT35 Turbo Charger, with Anti-Surge Air Inlet

Air Inlet: 4"
Compressed Air Outlet: 2.5"
Bearing: Journal Bearing
Turbine Housing Flange: Standard T4
Exhaust Outlet: 3” Vband
HP: 300~500 WHP
Cooling: Oil & Water
Working Pressure: 6-25 PSI
Compressor: .70 A/R
Turbine: .68 A/R
Compressor Wheel: 61.3 /82 mm
Turbine Wheel: 62 /67.8 mm



Ian

Specs look like that will work nicely for you.

IIRC, your turbo is just a tad larger than the one Snowman had on his stock 250 turbo build.

MBHD

I've been looking at intercoolers for the last 4 hours on eBay. The real estate behind the grille on my Camaro is quite limited as the lower bumper/hood latch support goes right up the middle and after some deliberation, I do not want to hack on it too much. So, The driver side alone allows for approximately 20"x13"x3.5". So I've found an intercooler measuring 18"x12"x3" with 3" inlet/outlets. I understand it's a bit on the small side but will it suffice for my needs? It will only cover 50% of the radiator which is a bonus. My only other option would to get a longer narrow one but it would need to be 2.5" thick instead of 3" and that means the inlet/outlet sizes get smaller too. Even going down to 2.5" thick means I will have to hack around an inch off the metal support. If I'm running 3" pipes everywhere it seems a shame to drop a 2.5" intercooler in. What do we think?



Ian

One thing to consider is pressure drop from the intercooler.
I did not see any specs on pressure drop for that intercooler.
Running an intercooler that is 2.5 inches inlet & outlet is fine, as long as there is not that much pressure drop.

You can have an intercooler with 3" inlet & outlet & have more of a pressure drop than a better designed intercooler with 2.5" inlet & outlets.

I do not think you will have cooling problems running a intercooler that is approx the same size as your engine radiator.
especially with a 2.5" thickness core.

I would want a thinner core intercooler that has more surface area over a thicker core intercooler that would only use half available airflow space.

How much boost are you planning on running?

If you do not plan on running that much boost, a intercooler with 2" inlet & outlets can work fine with 2" pipe plumbing for the intercooler & that will give you even more room.

Smaller & shorter runs of piping will have less turbo lag also.

MBHD

I am on a long weekend and typing on a phone.
One other thing to take into consideration on pistons. You will also need rings. All my piston kits come with rings.
Not on my site yet but in stock is another 250 piston choice. It is a lower compression unit and has a 18CC dish. Provides 8.5 ish with a 70CC chamber. In .040.

@MBHD - Thanks for the information on it. I was back and forth about overall size vs piping size. Either way, I've got some questions pending on a couple 28"x9"x2.75" intercoolers with 2.5" inlet/outlet.

@TLOWE - The more I think about it the more I want to save a few extra dollars and buy your modern/new pistons. What sort of performance difference would I see between your different 250 pistons? Also, are the prices the same? I appreciate your response, especially on a weekend with a smartphone.

Something I've been meaning to ask about pistons, would going lower compression make it likely I could get away with regular pump gas, or am I destined for premium fuel regardless of compression at this point?

Thanks,

Ian

If you run low boost you can run regular pump gas w/a engine of having 8.5:1.

You could go to 9.0:1 also with low boost & conservative timing on regular pump gas.

The advantages to aftermarket pistons over NOS forged TRW 307 pistons?
Normally, they will be lighter, if designed correctly, larger/better quench area = less chance of detonation.
Better ring package.
So, a better designed aftermarket piston should give you more power, it is not going to be a day & night difference in power.

Just make sure you get close to a zero deck height.

If you go too low on the compression, mileage suffers, turbo response is slower, (slower to get into boost).

If you just limit your boost to say approx 10 - 12 PSI I would run closer to 9.0:1 & run premium pump gas.

MBHD

Yeah, I don't care much about having to pay a few more bucks for fuel, and I don't want to sacrifice much on power, mileage and overall durability. Those lower compression pistons would have to be $300 or less to make me consider them at this point. It's between the 12bolt ones and a deal on the old 2314's.

I had a 66 & 69 Impala both sitting around the 320hp mark and I was always comfortable with that as a daily driver for power and mileage. I'd like to get back to that range again with my 250, so I want to run whatever boost I need to get to that range. People have mentioned as little as 6 and as much as 15. I don't have the expertise to estimate the required boost to get these components to that level. Either way, I will get higher compression pistons to support the potential for higher power goals.

Ian

Another update, I've added an intercooler and aluminum piping kit to my parts bin. I'll list the parts below with more detail. Couple questions at bottom as well.

I paid $100 for a FMP Racing 28"x9"x2.5" T6061 Polished Aluminum Bar & Plate Intercooler with 2.5" inlet/outlets. It lists a Compressed air flow rate of 600cubic feet/min and a pressure drop: 0.2-0.5 at 15PSI. Since I'll be keeping it near 10# boost it should be fairly efficient. It was tough to find an intercooler that was 2.5" thick with the same size inlets. I found several 2.75" thick with 2" inlets but I wanted to keep the flow as high as possible while keeping a narrow width. This intercooler should fit right in front of the radiator but low enough to not interfere with the hood latch assembly. It should allow the top 8" or so of radiator to remain exposed as well, which is good for cooling I'm sure.

<-- Clickable

Then I grabbed a $101 set of 3" Polished Aluminum piping by CXRacing. Nothing special here really but I liked that CXRacing was my Turbo brand and provided 2mm thick pipes, a lot of the other similar kits were 1.5 and some 1.8 so these should be fairly sturdy. I went polished as the intercooler and BOV pipe were both polished. I'll surely need some more for the downpipe fab, but we'll cross that bridge later.

<-- Clickable

I've got an email in to CompCams for the custom cam grind (218/218 .499/.499 on a 114 lobe separation) and lifters they recommended a couple months ago. I'll sign off on the specs and pay tomorrow. If anyone thinks this will not due my build justice, please speak now.

My budget system auto-saves me $100 a week. I need about 2-3 weeks to afford Tlowe's forged pistons and lump kit. I assume my stock 250 has cast 5.7" rods? Remembering I have a flimsy budget, will they work for this setup? My research indicates they will hold unless I start pushing more than 6500rpm, which I don't see happening.

Thanks for all the help,

Ian

My stock rods have seen 8,000 rpms for many years and have lasted. with a 13-1 compression.

Not sure if you can get a wider lobe center?
I would go to a 116, but a 114 will work fine.

Stock rods are forged, it's not a Pontiac 350 V-8. = cast rods

Normally I would turn to 6000-6500 RPMs on stock rods, with the Paxton super charger combo, it would have power up to 7500 RPM's.

Note: My stock rods were side grinded, polished shot peened & checked for cracks. Resized big end & ARP rod bolts installed.

Never blew up a stock Chevy 250 rod, they work pretty good.

MBHD

There are guys making ~650-700+HP with 2.5" inlet/outlet intercoolers on V8's, so should work pretty good. I've been looking at the same IC kits.

Have a set of OE rods magnafluxed to check for cracks, but otherwise they should be pretty durable if the tune is good and arp bolts used. I'm "hoping" to put 600HP through stock rods. At least the first turbo L6 I assemble will be stock rods capped with forged pistons.

Thanks for the info on the rods and cheap intercooler support.

I just signed the order for a custom 218/218 .499/.499 with 115 lobe separation cam from CompCams ($186). The sales rep was really good and agreed a slightly higher lobe wouldn't hurt my build but didn't want to see it beyond 115, so I split the 114/116 difference. I'm going to get their matching lifters as well (812-12 @ $63). So all in with custom cam with lifters $249 (free shipping).



I'm still scrounging for a good deal on a carb bonnet. Even $100 for the Spectre standard profile seems like a ripoff. I get it's a performance part but it seems like a high price for a mid grade piece. I'd like to find a used one, especially an EV or Procharger. Doesn't seem like they sell used too often. I tried posting in the Inliners swap meet but I can't find the 'new post' link.

Ian

Lift for horsepower, duration for rpm and LSA to get the valve events where you want them.

I have to stop saying when I'm going to buy things and in what order as I've pushed the pistons back several times and did it again today. Found the DevilsOwn Stage 1 SQ1 Meth/Alcohol Injection Kit on eBay for $239 so I bought it.

I had planned to wait until after I had the turbo installed and functioning before I bought the stage 2 kit. Then I decided I'd like to have it in place but not spend crazy money or have to burden myself with extra tuning, so the stage 1 kit made sense. It will be straight forward to install and setup to push a 50/50 mix or specific meth washer fluid at 4-5# () boost and use the washer jug for supply. Then, once I'm satisfied with the turbos function and everything is stable, I can simply add the controller and tweak timing as a future weekend project. Also, I could always adjust the meth/water ratio and tune for HP if I got the itch. I think it's a smarter plan, but now I only have a couple hundred bucks left.



Probably buy a carb bonnet next, then I'll have pretty much all the external parts for a mock up.

Ian

Good score!
I do the same thing, when I see something I want for a good price, I go & get it, but like you said, it puts the build off further down the road, oh well.

Depending on how much you inject into the engine, it will really drop down the intake temps, = way less chance of detonation, good call in my book.

In the instructions, IIRC, it will say not to tighten the fittings too tight into the pump head, it will crack the plastic, so just be careful, my friend cracked his because he just tightened it too tight.

Another friend has a Devils own stg 2 kit in his supercharged 2001 Pontiac GTP, only problem he had was they sent him too small of a jet.
His intake temps only dropped about 20-30 degrees F, not much & he was detonating some.

I had told him the intake temps should drop more than that & told him to contact Devils own, they agreed the temps should drop more than what it was & they discovered that they sent my friends kit to him with too small of a jet.

He received a larger nozzle/jet from them & that made a huge difference & the engine no longer detonates.

MBHD

Yeah I'm pretty excited to add Meth injection to the parts list. It's funny actually as it's one of the parts I wanted the most but decided to put off early on as it wasn't required to build a turbo setup. However the reality is it's so practical every engine can benefit from more HP, lower temps and cleaner cylinders so it should really be one of the first items on the list.

I'll need to spend some time researching the ideal PSI for the meth to kick in. One site mentioned to start with 50% of your boost, so if I was running 10#'s I'd start the meth pumping at 5psi. I would think it should come in a little earlier, perhaps 2-3 depending on how sensitive the switch was and how large the jet was on the kit. I suppose the tuning of the turbo comes into play as if it was into 2-3#'s just cruising around, I'd be burning meth all day and that would get costly. I may have just talked myself into starting at 50% of my boost.

Also, I've yet to see windshield washer fluid with meth as an ingredient. Anyone have any good common sources for this stuff that they might carry up north (West coast Canada)? I can always run straight meth but I'd like to price it all out.

Ian

For washer fluid, the ones made for winter have a higher blend of meth.

Not sure if you have a Walmart near you ? but

There is a product called Heat, the one in a yellow bottle is, IIRC, 99% methanol.

https://www.google.com/search?q=methanol...mp;ved=0CB0QsAQ

Remember, it's the Yellow bottle, not the red one.

I get my meth form a chemical supply company, 5 gallon buckets.
The F&L is actually more pure than the "RACE" methanol from VP ( M1)IIRC

http://www.vpracingfuels.com/master-fuels-table







Devils owns sells this: http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/44-premixed-methanol

Summit: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SNO-40008/

but it's usually a lot cheaper to mix your own if you have access to.

MBHD

Thanks for the detailed info on meth. I don't have any chain stores here and since I live on an island they don't bring chemicals over (except regular gas) so I'd need to go off Island to get to a walmart or chemical supply.

Switching subjects, I'm thinking of getting the Extreme Velocity hat over the spectre. The EV's claims for increases HP/flow are impossible to ignore. I was originally advised to get the one with a divider. Would the divider allow me to adjust the amount of air being directed into the secondaries vs the primaries or is it simply for flow? Why does the polished one have to be way more $.

Side note, I went to a Canada Day show and shine today and did not see any Camaros, inline 6's or boosted setups. I almost shat myself. Not even 1 camaro! Even with my average paint job and scummy six I shoulda got in line. It will be quite something to have the only boosted 6 in an original 250 Camaro beside all the 350's and 396's.

Ian

The divided hat is non adjustable.

Yep, SBC's & BBC's are just the norm, (ho hum),, inline boosted Chevy 6, now that gets everyone's attention!

MBHD

I've read for hours and combining all sources I get the following as a general consensus:

<=800HP divided hat with no spacer mounted at 12, 6, 3 or 9 o'clock. Preferably 3 or 9.

>801HP no divider and with a spacer mounted at 12 or 6 o'clock, preferably 6.

So, I'll go with the divided EV hat, painted black mounted at 9 o'clock and run the pipe from the front passenger side up and over the valve cover.

That sound like the best case scenario?

Ian

In addition to the above, I'm looking at gauges too. I have room for three 52mm gauges above my heater control and I want one more, the most important one mounted on the column. I'm having difficulty narrowing it down to only 4 gauges. I'll want a wideband and boost gauge for sure. I would like to monitor oil pressure as well and I think a tach could be useful for tuning. However I'm reading about EGT and fuel pressure gauges as well. So many to sift out.

Perhaps a 60-80mm boost gauge on the column, with the smaller wideband, tach and oil pressure on the dash. Then again, I'm running a hot daily driver, not a race car so maybe I'd be better to monitor exhaust temps (especially with meth flowing) instead of rpm? Any thoughts?

Ian

You can always add one of these to add more gauges. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Auto-Meter-10100...212&vxp=mtr

It is for a Mustang but it fits nice in a Camaro like yours.

I do not think you will need to monitor exhaust temps too much, but that's up to you, the meth drops the exhaust temps.

MBHD

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=201421&highlight=gauge

You can try reaching out to him.

Well I think I'm going to grab boost for the column and AFR, Oil Pressure and Water Temperature for the dash or pillar.

Thanks for the link gbauer. I had seen and mentioned that pillar pod several pages ago but forgot how clean it looked. I've never been a fan of pillar pods on these older cars but for how clean, and not having to cut the dash, it's quite appealing. Then again, the dash mount could look very stock with suitable gauges.

I've been bouncing back and forth with which gauge brand to get. I really like the color and appearance options of budget companies like glowshift and prostreet but have mixed feelings about reliability (especially glowshift) but also don't mind Autometer despite higher prices and visual limits. The obvious reply seems to be, "don't buy glowshift, they're shit!" but when your buying 4 gauges at $350 vs Autometer or AEM at $500-600 for the same functions with less visual appeal... It's not that easy.

Anyone have any recent experience with either prostreet or glowshift gauges?

I USE AUTOMETER A LOT. I HAVE HAD TO GET A COUPLE OF REPLACEMENTS ON WARRANTY. THEY FULFILLED THEIR WARRANTY OBLIGATIONS.

I have ran AutoMeter Gauges for over 40yrs And I have never had one fail. And I have them in my 64SS and they have been there since 1984.

I've had a chance to review the gauge options and have decided to go with the autometer Cobalt series. I like the pro-comp series as well but the Cobalt brings in a similar blue glow to what my Camaro cluster has now, and that's what I liked most about the cheaper gauges mentioned earlier. Further more, I'll buy the AFR and boost gauges first and perhaps down the road, birthday or Christmas I can get the oil pressure and water temp ones as they aren't critical to the turbo setup.

I've selected the following two gauges:

Autometer Cobalt 2 1/16" 6171 Analog Wideband Gauge
Autometer Cobalt 2 1/16" 6159 30psi Electic Vac/Boost Gauge

I've read these are excellent gauges but I thought I should at least mention it here in case someone smarter than I had a better option or notified an incompatibility. I picked an electric boost gauge because they are lower profile and will fit in the custom pillar pod mentioned in gbauer's previous post. Plus I don't have to run hose through the firewall.

Ian

Ian: check the Camaros.org thread again. Someone there is selling his pod set for $100.

Thanks for the heads up. I have the forum subscribed but since I posted I've tossed and turned on it. I just don't really like Pillar gauges so I'm going to do a column boost gauge and 3 above the heater controls. I'm never gonna get air conditioning anyway.

Thanks again,

Ian

google cyberdyne gauges. I got volt-h2o temp-oil pressure for #165 shipped (in US) with 4 color lenses. very niceyou were thinking digital I hope?

Thanks for the cyberdyne referral. I thought I had something until I realized the gauges I want, specifically Boost and Wideband are more expensive. I think they increased the price of their "performance" gauges to make up for the cheaper cost of their standard gauges.

I'm pretty confident I'll be going with an analog AutoMeter gauge. I've read almost all the internet has to offer on the differences between analog and digital display gauges since I noticed your question, and the internet says "get the one you like the look of more". They are both accurate but one shows a needle sweep and the other a precise number. Some argue the sweep is valuable while others say its hard to read a needle on the fly. I hear the digital number rapidly changing at night can be a distraction too. Either way, my old car with all analog gauges is going to get more semi-matching analog gauges. Probably mechanical Boost gauge and an electric oil pressure gauge as I don't like oil lines running into the passenger compartment.

Either way, I'm pretty set on AutoMeter now, best bang for your buck it seems, at least as far as the gauges I want. On the hunt for a deal now.

Ian

Hey, when I hookup a mechanical boost gauge, will the source be ideal for measuring vacuum as well? If so, would it be beneficial to get a vacuum/boost gauge or should I stick with a boost only gauge with a more suitable range?

Thanks

Yes , get a Vacuum/Boost gauge.

MBHD

Thanks for the info on the gauges. I know what I want now, just a matter of ordering.

I made a trip to the US yesterday and grabbed all my waiting parts... it was like Christmas came early. I'll post some pics below.


SPA Turbo Wastegate



Wyntonm BOV w/3" OD Pipe Flange



CXRacing T4 GT35 Turbo 0.68 AR



Devils Own Stage 1 Meth Kit



CXRacing 3" Polished Piping Kit



FMP Racing 28"X9"X2.5" Intercooler



CompCams Custom Grind Cam



CompCams Hydraulic Lifters 812-12


I've inspected everything to the best of my ability and it all looks good. No obvious flaws. Turbo turbines spin freely. Cam feels smooth. I'm pretty happy with the parts received, especially for the dollars spent.

I don't want to crowd this post with questions so I'll break here.

Ian

So I got my new wastegate yesterday and it looks good, except I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to mount it. The wastegate has a 3 bolt inlet and a 2 bold outlet.

The way I understand it, I only have two options. I can weld a pipe with a 3 bolt flange onto the 292 exhaust manifold, or make up some kind of adapter/spacer between the 292 manifold outlet and the turbo that has a 3 bold flange coming off it.

I've been looking for a picture of a turbo setup using the 292 exhaust manifold, but haven't had any luck.

Ian

You could possibly bore a hole in the exhaust manifold (where it is flat & thick), & mount the wastegate direct to the exhaust manifold?

Just a thought anyways.

MBHD

Made another trip to the US yesterday. I came into some money and ordered some non-turbo items too (Scat Procar Rally Seats, Retrosound Vintage Stereo, Lower valance spoiler and some misc interior parts).


Spectre Performance 8131 Black 4" Cone Air Filter



Spectre Performance 9849 4" Single Air Intake Plenum. I wish I would have ordered the low profile nut too.



Ross Forged piston set 5.7 rod .040 overbore. True Flat top design.


Pistons shown above. Ordered and received in less than 5 business days from 12bolt.com. TLowe was quick with replies and must have sent them out right away. You can click any of the images to zoom in.

All is going well here except now I have pretty much all the stuff I'll need to start working on the turbo setup and I find myself a bit nervous to get started. I'm good with researching and spending money obviously, but the actual process of tearing it down is a bit daunting.

Ian

Daunting but fun.

I ended up sending the car out for more work than I originally intended to. My fabrication skills are less than stellar.
We all need a guy like Hank living next door!

Paul

Good luck and get ready to do some tuning when it comes back.

If that is meant for me thanks, I'll take it!

If not disregard.

MBHD

Absolutely meant for you.
I have seen the pictures of your handy work.
Pretty fine stuff indeed.

Paul

Well in that case I'll take it.
I try to learn & improve with each project.

Thank you.

It's been a while but an update is in order. I bought an engine stand and rented a hoist the other day and got the engine out.

Today I ripped the engine down to a short block. Everything went really smooth and it helped my engine confidence quite a bit. I don't have a breaker bar so I had to get creative to get enough leverage on some of the bolts (those darn head bolts).

Over the last few days I've been calling around to various Machine shops (off island of course) and have had a wide range of attitudes and prices. Interestingly enough, the shop with the best price is also the most conveniently located and the owner had a great attitude about the project. One of the shops actually said "you really want to throw all you're money at an inline 6?!". Needless to say I won't be taking my engine there. Even the cheaper, friendly shop quoted me $500-1000 for all the parts/labor.

To get quotes, I've been asking for the following:
Hot Tank
Magnaflux
Bore and hone cylinders (Pistons .040 over)
Balance and Polish Crank
Drill and thread crank nose for damper extractor/installer tool
Install Cam Bearings (seems cheaper than buying tool)

Now, I have some concerns about assembly. I can acquire a piston ring compressor but I'm a little hesitant to buy the tools required to degree the camshaft. They are not available for rent here. Other than that, I'm pretty sure I can install the pistons, and torque everything to spec without too much trouble.



Got the engine out and ready for disassembly.



Should I be having the shop "port" these so that large bolt boss is cleared? I've seen TLowes lump port videos showing how the head bolts to the block using a socket and extension through the original top hole.



Pulled the head off to reveal the Piston tops. No obvious sings of damage to me but guess I won't know until the're out and clean.



Machine shop asked me to confirm if the cylinders had been bored before. I don't have a micrometer so... any thoughts?



Got about this far today and pulled the oil pump. Probably pull the pistons out tomorrow, being sure to cover the rod bolts for safety.


So, still a ways to go but it's happening. As a re-cap on the questions...

Should I have the machine shop port the heads?
Do I need to degree the cam or is they're a way around it?
Am I missing any other critical services for a half way accurate quote?

Thanks for your help. Please feel free to add any tips or tricks about the tear down, machine shops or assembly as all I have are books, forums and Youtube; I'd hate to miss something.

Ian

I always enjoy disassembling an engine (unless of course I had just assembled it... =P )

For the pistons, clean the carbon off the tops and if its been bored you should find a stamping on them showing a number for its over size. Some of them get fuzzy with use, but out of six pistons at least one will be readable. If you cannot find a stamping on any of them, its a very good chance they are standard bore.

Here are the stampings on my OHC L6. They are easier to read in person than in the photos.

Right at the top of the picture.




And these pistons were crusty. I used a wire wheel to clean them, but brake clean and a scotchbrite pads can get you there. This engine had two different styles of pistons in it for some reason. Both were 0.030" over bored. When I first pulled the head off I was expecting the two different pistons to be a different size =P

Pulled the rest of the pistons today and procrastinated cleaning them up. Cleaned one up and wouldn't you know it, "060" stamped on all of them. Son of a beech, my .040 pistons arn't going to work on this block. I've made some calls and apparently these blocks are highly sought after in my area and people pay top dollar for them. Machine shop quoted me $900 to sleeve all 6 cylinders, which might be the cheapest way to get a solid block.

I'm bringing the stripped block to the machine shop on Saturday to see if it would accept .060 over pistons. If it will, I'll have to see about swapping pistons to get back on track.... ugg.









Ian

You always bore the block before you order pistons. It seems that more times than not you have a block that is already too big or just won't cleanup in the bores for the pistons you bought. The same for buying your bearings before you turn the crank.

Bummer! I normally agree on not buying the pistons or bearings before knowing what the clean up work on the block and crank are, unfortunately tlowe's pistons only come in 0.040" so you are kind of forced to find an acceptable block to get the good priced pistons.

I plan on buying those same pistons eventually, but I have one block that is 0.030" over and one standard bore block to work with (Pontiac L6's).

I would think you'd be able to find a serviceable bare block for under $500. In the mean time, you could always do what I did on my OHC, modify and clean up the head some, slam the bottom end back together, reusing everything, and get your car running with the turbo system (only running 4-6psi) while you are looking for a good block to use. Then after you assemble the good short block you can make a weekend out of pulling the engine, swapping heads, and putting the good engine back into the car. Then turn up the boost! =D

Ross Pistons is a club advertiser and offers generous club discounts to Inliner International members in what ever size you need. So don't settle for .040 over just because that's the only oversize Tom chooses to stock.

I do have those pistons in .060 also. Doubt that would help though. Can also supply the Ross pistons in about any size needed. Some guy's need bigger, even had one guy order standard size. Can supply them cheaper than you can get them with a 10% discount. And give credit back for yours.

I'm with CNC-Dude. Don't get ahead of yourself. Accept that you are custom building and follow the sequencing. If the block magna-fluxes OK then it can be reused. The out-of-round measured by a machinist will dictate what the minimum over bore needs to be in order to square the bores. If it comes back .070 or .080 then Ross can build a piston to that spec. Moreover, a good shop won't final hone the bores until the actual pistons are in their hands. The guys at Ross drop shipped my pistons to my machinist for just this reason.

I appreciate the info here guys. I screwed up as I presumed the block was either original, or maybe only .020 or .030 over. This is a learning experience I will never forget, and never repeat. Best case scenario is good ol' Tom will credit me for my untouched .040's and be able to get me what I need. Shipping those pistons back and forth from Canada might be pricey but better than sleeving or looking for a block for my pistons. I found a guy near Vancouver who has a rough looking 250 and he wants $650 for it. I'd have to take 2 ferries to fetch it which would run me $90 each way. Obviously I wouldn't purchase the first one I found but it's a good indication of the "deals" around here.

Assuming my block can be salvaged, Any thoughts on what the MAX overbore I'd want to go with? I've been working with the idea .060 is the end of the line.

Also, how does the camshaft come out? I understand the gear is pressed on, but their isn't much to grab to pull it out. Wooden block and a mallet? Also, the oil filter adapter is rock solid, does it just unscrew like anything else?

Thanks again for all the input!

Ian

20/30/40/60 are 'stock' over sizes . . .

Leo Santucci's book shows displacement specs with over bores up to .125 (Page 28).

That's good info, I didn't think you did any other sizes. In this case, I'd have the machinist sonic check the block and if the walls are thick take it out to 0.070-0.080" and get pistons accordingly. The pistons might be more, but it sounds like its a cheaper option than locating and finding a new engine.

Hey, there's nothing to be ashamed about getting the wrong size pistons, it happens a lot, we all get anxious at times.

As for the cam, put the mallet away. The cam is held in place by (2) bolts that are behind the cam gear. The two large holes in the face of the cam gear allow access to these bolts. Just rotate the crank while peering through these holes until the bolt heads become visible. Once you remove them, it will come right out. You'll need to save the thrust plate and spacer that are on the current cam and swap them to the new one before reinstalling the cam in the engine.

See the screws in the holes in the cam gear? Those hold the retaining plate in. Rotate the cam until you can get to them and use a bit screwdriver.

I somehow hit the lotto when I did mine. The screws were lined up when I pulled off the cover.

In this pic you can see the holes where the screws were and the gun made a nice outline where the retainer was.



and another pic:





Hope this helps.

Those pics help a lot. I'm a bit saddened I didn't figure that out. I figured the gear was pressed on and those 2 holes were for some kind of pulling tool.

I was cleaning the block last night and noticed a small brass plate rivitted to the back end with "Remanufactured" and some numbers on it. Is that a common thing for machine shops to do? I attached a pre-cleaned image of it below.



I'm sure it doesn't matter but I tried googling it and found nothing of certainty.

I'll let you know how it goes at the shop tomorrow.

Ian

I wouldn't have known without either asking for stumbling on it myself.

As to the plate? Never seen one but then again I'm no expert on the 250. I actually know more about BMW engines than these.

Do me a favor if you have a moment and are doing it anyway: Can you pull the oil pan off and take a pic from the side so I can see how far down stuff goes into the deep part of the sump? My oil pan is bent and now the engine has a slight knock. I think it's interference but not sure.

It's all stripped now but I took a ton of pictures at the time.. I don't have the exact angle you want though. The bottom one is alright but doesn't show the oil pump.







Ian

Ian, I'm two to three hours south of Vancouver. Once my current block checks out, I'll be ready to release my spare block and all the pieces for a song. Maybe a Canadian six pack as I'm using the crank to convert my 230 to a 250. The block is upside down now, but this weekend i'll get all of the pistons out and check the bore on the block. I don't remember seeing any markings, but that doesn't mean a lot yet. The block should be bored before being used again. Look for one of my other posts.

Thanks for the offer Mark! I took the block into the machine shop this morning and he thought it looked freshly bored so it might not need much attention. Their was a block ahead of mine so the hot tank, magnaflux and sonic check won't be done until Tuesday or so. I guess I can get the pistons I have ready for shipping.

If the block turns ugly on me, I'll head to the liquor store for that 6 pack :-)

Ian

While I wait... I need to order more stuff. Not sure if it's because I need the parts or I'm just addicted to online part shopping.

Machine shop said my fiber gear was a POS and I needed the steel/alum combo. He specifically suggested not bothering with the adjustable keyway version as he believed I'd be satisfied with stronger stock gears and timing. If I take his suggestion, how about this Melling Timing Gear Sets (2528S)?

I'd like to hope my chosen machine shop is on the ball but I can't be certain how many turbo'd 250s he's worked on and how seriously he took my "I'm on a budget" speech. Sure, I'm on a budget but I don't want to regret it later. However, even if I had the Cloyes gears, I don't have the tools to degree the cam. Gear price difference and tools would probably be another $150CAN, which is becoming a lot of money right now. Is it worth it?

Also.. He said he'd through the main seal in for me and I realized I don't have any gaskets yet. So I'm seeing this Sealed Power Gasket Set (260-1005) as the cheapest brand name set.

Any objections to those linked parts?

Ian

Be Sure He heats The cam Gear Before he in stalls it. Other wise you will be doing things Over.

haha thanks for the reminder. I remember Snowman's issue with the pressed on gear, not fun. You don't have an opinion on the need for adjustable gears?

Ian

Most cams can go in straight UP. For opp. Performance Most will degree the cam. But for a daily driver You should be fine just in stalling straight up. ( meaning not to worry to much about having it degreed in.) Just my cheap 2cents.

I've watched pretty much all the YouTube videos on degreeing cams and the only reason I might have wantes to do it would be to confirm the specs of the cam. It was a custom grind by CompCams but I'd like to think their quality control is good enough not to have to check it. Thanks for your cents Twisted.

Ian

Its not so much the cam you should question, but the other components that also can contribute to inaccuracies that are involved in this process. If you don't at least check it, you won't know where it is. And if it doesn't perform as expected, you'll always wonder "what if".

I understand what you're saying, but I'd like to check it without buying the required tools. I've had some success with borrowing tools from the local shops. You guys think a typical auto repair shop would carry the dial and degree wheel or is it more of a machine shop set?

Ian

Those pics were a HUGE help, Ian! Thanks!

I was able to get my hand in there and pull the oil pickup tube down a hair. That was just enough to stop the clanging.

Can't say thanks enough!


Onto the cam gear: If you haven't ordered one yet I found Autozone has them for dirt cheap.

http://www.autozone.com/internal-engine/...hv/4649_0_2635/

I'd recommend going into the store to order it though. Also might want to order the retainer and spacer as well. Mine showed wear so the machine shop replaced it with one from their used bin that had no wear when they pressed on the gear for me.

The new gear will make a little noise. Not much but expect it when you fire it up.


The machine shop only charged me about $30 to put it on. Good to find a nice local machine shop that does race engines. Ask the guys at the parts counter when you buy your gear set. The place around the corner from me (Gunther's if anyone is looking for a great little machine shop local to Frederick, MD) has all sorts of goodies, sells the right oils, and is generally just good to deal with. I've bought a ton of stuff from them for little money and they've saved me more than once.

Cam gear installation is an easy DIY job. With the magic metallurgy one doesn't even need a press.

For mine I installed the spacer and key into the key-way on the cam and stuck them in the basement deep freeze for a day. The retainer plate also spent the night in there.

In the morning I put the cam gear on the gas grill on high for 20 minutes - to preheat - 600 degrees. I have 4x4x1 square of steel that I use in the shop for various purposes. I put it under the gear to retain heat.

Next the cam and key were put in my bench vise with snout pointing straight up. The retaining plate is then installed. I placed my dead blow hammer at the ready.

I retrieved the cam and hot-block from the grill with my insulated gloves. With a propane torch I finished heating the cam gear hub by going round and round with a high flame on the inside surface for about 30 seconds.

To my surprise the cam gear literally dropped into place - no need for the dead blow . . .

Had I needed to pound the hot square of steel would have gone on top of the gear - to take the blows from the hammer.

No, I wouldn't think a general repair shop would have these type of tools. These are more typically found in performance oriented hot rod shops and performance oriented machine shops. But, you'll just have to ask around.

Yes but my way the liability was on the machine shop. That's worth $30 to me.

I haven't yet done the degree wheel on my build - I guess I will eventually. Used wheels show up on ebay all the time.

The cam-doctor card tells the story of the timing events clearly enough. My dial gauge tells the story of actual lift (which is always shy from the theoretical rocker-ratio) . . .

Have you ever tweaked a cam with offset key?
Pegasus Auto Racing - Offset Keys

I have not.

The stick is already ground - so all one can do is move the entire a profile +/- 1-5 degrees (based on the orientation of the offset) . . .

Perhaps something to consider after tweaking with lash adjustments (which is good for slight retarding on solids anyway).

For the novice: Why would you need to use an offset key? Don't you want the cam to open and close the valves at a set time and adjust the timing with the distributor?

The distributor adjusts spark timing events. An offset key moves the entire cam profile advancing/retarding valve events depending on the way the key is installed. It changes the position of the cam gear relative to the center line of the cam.

Yes, i've used the offset keys and offset bushings in many engines where I had customers that didn't want to spring for an adjustable timing set. More times than not though, the cam timing events wont correspond accurately when you install a cam in the "straight up" orientation, because as with the "theoretical" rocker ratio, they also are assuming "perfect world" scenarios where all things are in perfect sync. Many aftermarket stock replacement timing sets for a lot of different engines are also designed to purposely retard the cam timing as much as 8° or more for emissions purposes(Fords being one of them), so its best to always verify and not assume you are close to what the cam card says.

I have to keep my purchases to Jegs, Summit, Ebay and Amazon as I'm in Canada on a small island with limited access to retail outlets. The Melling Gear set I posted on Summit has a Steel crank gear while the Autozone one is Cast Iron. My understanding is the Iron gear is weaker but quieter than steel. I'd consider the Autozone set but they don't ship to Canada and I don't get into the US much anymore.

I'll be installing the gear myself. I don't want to find out the Machine shop had installed the gear with a press and I had success with heating the damper a few months back. Thanks Stock49 for giving detailed instructions on the process.

I'll keep my eye open for used degree wheel and see if I can acquire the rest on the cheap. It'll more be for checking the setup at this point. Perhaps I can look into the offset key if adjustment is needed.

I left the crank and it's gear on a stand at home, does it "heat" on as well or press fit?

Ian

I have drilled and tapped the crank for a retaining bolt. With longer bolt - two fender washers and a big socket (that fits over the crank snout) - you can drive the crank gear home via the longer retaining bolt. I did it by hand with 1/2" drive ratchet . . . no heat required.

I tapped mine on with a 1-1/4" galvanized pipe nipple and a hammer. Don't pound it on but you can do it gently and get it on just fine.

Alright... machine shop work aside. I want to compile a list of items (tools/parts) needed to complete the build. I want to leave nothing out as I'd like to get most/all of it on one more order from Summit.

Melling Steel/Alum Crank/Cam Gears
Complete Engine Gasket Set
Turbo Oil Supply and Return Lines
Camshaft Degree Kit (Wheel, Dial w/Stand and TDC tool)
Plastigauge (to confirm various clearances)
Feeler Gauges Set (more clearance checking)
Piston Ring Compressor
High Temp VHT Engine & Header Paints
Hole Saw (oil pan drain install)

Please let me know if I'm missing anything significant for engine and turbo component install. At this point all parts on the head are stock and cam bearings will be installed by the shop. I obviously have all the basic wrenches and and whatnot used to disassemble the engine.

Ian

I have crank hubs made for all the different engines i've built and the degree wheel bolts to the faces of these hubs. Most kits however only offer components to allow the degree wheels to bolt directly to the front of the crank, so make sure you drill and tap your crank snout if you haven't already or you wont have any way to affix the degree wheel to the engine. I also have a cam degreeing tutorial that I wrote as a tech article for several national magazines that you can use as a backup to help step you thru the process. I can email it to you if you need it.

That would be great. Not going to need it for a little while but feel free to send it to ian1331@gmail.com. I've got a list of machine shop services and drill/tap the crank is on it. Thanks!

Ian

No problem! Just let me know when you are ready for it.

Oh I'm ready now.. I can review it now to ensure I understand it all when the time comes. So feel free to send it when you get a chance. Thanks!

Ian

Sent the original pistons back and now ordering the new ones through Tom. Machine shop suggested I go with the dished pistons and aim for 8:1 compression for lower octane. I have the meth injection system to supplement either way. In the mean time, I have a couple queries...

Here is my cam card:


Will my stock valve springs hold up to that lift? On Gbauer's recent lifter/cam thread (now I know why he wanted the pump clearance pics) I read the springs hold up to 450 then maybe 500 and then someone mentioned needing to replace them was "a myth". I'd like to use all stock parts on the head, at least for now.

I'm putting my new forged pistons on stock rods. For a goal of 300-350HP, is this dooming my build? Obviously anything can happen, but I've read people say "I've had stock rods to XXXHP for X years with no problem" and others piss on the idea of cast rods with any Turbo. Is this likely not an issue for me or is it really only a matter of time before they go?

Ian

Yes. You need new springs. Why risk dropping a valve on such a nice, new engine when springs are $50? That's a good meal and a beer for you and your wife.

Rods? I want to know this one as well.

I don't mind replacing the springs and have confirmed my .499 lift would be asking for trouble with the stock springs... Might work.. For a while.. But wasnt going to last forever.

I'm thinking of getting these springs from Summit (Howard 98214) and those blue Viton Umbrella Seals Tom has referenced in several threads. However I might get these matching Howard 93350 ones if they'll fit; fairly limited details. I've got an email into Howard Cams for more info.

Anyone able to tell if those springs will be a direct replacement for stock springs?

Ian

8:0 is too low compression, it will be sluggish , slow to getting boost.
Bad mileage.
I would shoot for at least 9.0 compression ratio, you have a descent size cam & if you are only shooting for 300-350 HP that will require low boost.

MBHD

They should be forged rods, not cast. Only three things will get the rod, lots of rpm, hammering them with detonation (at a level that would probably destroy the forged pistons), and an obscene level of boost making a lot more than 350HP.

Simple math, 350HP/6 = 58HP per rod. 58x8 = 464HP for an equivalent V8. Big block Buick's have factory forged rods and many are built with stock rods making in excess of 500-550HP, usually with a heavier piston on the end of the rod. You're not even close to pushing the limits of the stock rods (changing the bolts out wouldn't hurt though...), nor a 7 main supported crankshaft.

Yes, the stock rods are forged.

Thanks SilverBuick and MBHD. I've read about casting and forging parts but obviously can't tell the difference by looking at them. I observed some rough edges alog what looked like the seam line of a mold and assumed they were cast. I don't have a great picture of it but...



So.. I doubt Tom has ordered my new pistons yet so the target compression isn't final, but the machine shop was fairly convincing a lower compression like 8:1 would support good milage, 87 octane, quick spooling and a mid-high power curve. They said the turbo would need to boost a bit more to get the power but it would be less prone to detonation and work well for me. I'd like to think they were taking all my components (turbo size, external wastegate, water/alc injection, cam) into consideration but I don't want bad mileage or sluggish low end performance. I'm not a fan of conflicting information. I'll have to look into this more over the weekend.

Ian

Those are forged. Forged have the flat smooth'ish parting line, cast is a thin ridge parting line. Below is a comparison of a cast (left) and forged (right) rods from the same type of engine.



As for compression. What I'm always told is, particularly for small engines (I count these as small..) is low compression will make them feel underpowered and lazy at low rpm, where higher compression will make a bit more HP/TQ off the line before the turbo spools, making a more even powerband/feel. I agree with your machinist on that 8.0'ish compression will be easy on your fuel bill and live happily on 87 octane "most" the time depending on boost levels. Getting up around 9.0+ compression will require premium fuel just to be sure you don't accidentally ping the engine when boost comes in, particularly at low rpm. If your turbo is sized right, boost can come in fairly early in the rpm range and low compression can be a near win-win IMO.

Being you are only going to run 5-7 psi of boost pressure to get your desired HP 8.0 compression is way too low, your camshaft is going to bleed down cylinder pressure, therefore you would need to up your compression ratio.
Your are not running a stock camshaft were your Cyl pressure would be higher.
If you are looking to make the most power out of your combo, you would run low compression & run higher boost levels, but since you are not going for that goal & would like some zip out of it, make better for a daily driver, better mileage you need to bump up the compression ratio.
Going to run 8.0 compression is old school way of thinking & is not good advice for engines being built today not from years ago thinking.

Thanks for your comments guys.. Getting a lot of mixed opinions online (and here haha). Anyone else care to add to the debate? I really wanted to stick to regular grade fuel but not loose tons off the line. Would meeting in the middle at 8.5:1 be an acceptable compromise?

Ian

I'm in decent agreeance with Hank given your goals, you may want a bit more compression for the relatively low boost levels you are targeting.

Well I'll probably call Tom on Monday and get the pistons ordered. I had originally planned to go near 10:1 but the shop convinced me to go with 8:1 for saftey so I guess I'll meet in the middle with 9:1.

Thanks for your input guys.

Ian

If you are dead set on running just 87 octane you can just stick with 8.0 but how much more is getting higher octane gas 10 cents 20 cents more a gallon, and how often are you going to drive the car, every day daily driver?

I would just run 91 octane and not worry about any detonation, run alcohol injection , some type of boost timing retard device.
Is an intercooler an option for you?

Not sure of all of your goals for your vehicle, just drive it on the weekends, car shows, daily driver, what gear ratio are you running, manual trans, auto, car weight etc all have to take into consideration when planning a turbo car project.

MBHD

I was fairly dead set on running 87 octane as its obviously the cheapest and gas in Canada is ridiculous. 91 is premium and is usually 20¢ more a litre. Today premium is $1.33 a litre ($5.32 gal). That would make 87 about $4.52 a gallon. I feel like a cheapskate evening talking about it but an extra $1.20 a gallon for pump gas will add up. On the bright side, I found a local supplier of methanol at $5 a litre. May end up being cheaper to inject a 50/50 of that.

Long story short, I'm glad you caught my low compression idea as with your info, and several articles online I'm convinced 9:1 or even a little over is ideal for me. The alc injection, intercooler and cam shown above should be safe enough and still "easy" to tune at 9:1.

Goals: Near daily driver in city/rural/small island roads, stock gears (2.73s?), th350 with shift kit, 67 Camaro (approx 2900 lbs).

Ian

I thought that those nice forged pistons that Tom has will take a stock 250 to abot 9.5:1 without any decking. The pistons go up just a little higher than the 307 flat tops. But maybe these are different pistons. How does one drop the compression? Special thick head gasket?

I do not recommend 6:1, too low. :-)

I agree 6:1 is waayyy to low. I was orginally planning on 8:1 but I'm pretty set on 9:1 now. The flat top ones on 12bolt.com do get you into the mid-high 9's but he has a different set now with dished tops. If you custom order he can have Ross Racing make whatever size dish you want. I originally ordered flat tops but the machine shop owner was adamant a lower compression would be safer on my .070 overbored cylinders and allow me to pump 87 octane.

The dished pistons could be made as big (deep) as you need to allow for a lower compression. After reviewing the Inline 6 power manual further, and a bunch of online resources I'm confident my block will be fine with 9:1 while allowing me to meet my performance goals. Plus, if (when?) I decide to up the power, I'll be in a better position to increase boost.

Most of you guys are pros but if anyone wants a refresher I found this page on www.xcceleration.com was very well written and gave me a basic understanding of the low vs high compression topic.

Ian

Thanks Ian. That link was great.

So from what I'm getting from everyone and everything is a stock engine can run 87 octane at 6 psi safely. How much more pressure can be run if mid grade is used? Premium?

I don't know much about that but I've read Snowman's turbo build thread half a dozen times and their is a lot of tidbits on what he was able to achieve with stock parts. Even though I've learned tons from his thread a lot of it was a lesson on how to take risks and pay for it later. I'd bet if the stars aligned you could go higher than 6# but it would increase the likelihood of detonation and inevitable part damage. The way I understand it, with a carbeurator setup and no timing retard device the tuning has to be spot on to achieve efficient power while avoiding knock. The higher end parts will take a lot more abuse before failing, which I may need to get the tuning right. Plus, with different torque levels, gaskets, weak cylinder walls and all kids of unknown precurser issues, one engine might hold up to 10# while the next is shot at 4#.

I'm kinda talking out of my ass just to give you my no-actual-experince opinion.

Ian

Sounds like trial and error are involved...

For tuning I think so. As for the stock engine capability, I think it's probably impossible to say what amount of boost they can handle. If they were all brand new from the factory you might be able to get consistent reports from people but no 2 are alike now, making it impossible to know.

As for tuning, The Holly 600 I have is going to be a guessing game for me. I've got it all rebuilt but it didn't come setup stock. Stock or not, I don't know the best initial setup for this oversized carb.

Right now it has a 65/75 jets, 6.5 Power valve and 31/32 squirters. I never provided pics of the rebuilt carb...





If anyone has any thoughts on a good starting point for carb jets/squirters for my 250 (intercooled cold air intake but no turbo) please share. I'll add the turbo and devils own kit once the engine runs "stock".

Ian

p.s. new pistons ordered with a 12CC dish targeting 9:1 CR

I'm pretty sure those jets are going to be way too big.

Stock should be:

Primary main jets 69, Secondary main jets 71, Power valve 6.5, Primary Nozzle 25, Secondary Nozzle 32

http://www.allcarbs.com/tech.php?art=21

Power valve should work though. The squirters are probably about right.

All that aside that's a really big carb. A 450 CFM is probably more of what you need. I'm only running a 390 though I feel like I'm on the light side.

I knew the carb wasn't purchased setup as stock but I also knew the stock setup wasn't going to work for a 250 with, or without a turbo. It's a big carb but the mechanical secondaries will allow decent control over my turbo power curve. The way I look at it, it's like having two 2 barrel 300cfm carbs... One for normal driving and the other to kick in when I mash the pedal, aka "Turbo Time".

Ian

Is it set up to be blow through?

You bet. Since we hit a new page I'll recap the externals:

A 4" Spectre filter feeds the CXRacing GT35 T4 .68 A/R turbo, and the air outlet will have piping to a front mount FMRacing bar/plate intercooler, then back into the bay past a Wyntonm 44mm BOV to the spectre hat with a Devil's Own stage 1 alcohol injector. Holly 4776 600cfm carb sits on an Offy 5414 intake. Exhaust flows out a stock 292 manifold with a 35mm adjustable SPA Turbo wastegate. At least that's the plan...

Ian

You're a braver man than I. I won't go turbo until I go EFI first.

I considered EFI initially but I figure once I get a grasp of the tuning it'll be a great setup. I've always liked the idea of having full control over air/fuel ratios with only a flathead screwdriver. Almost nothing to fail and gives a real old school feel to it. Plus the carb was only $110 (rebuilt).

Don't get me wrong though, the pros of EFI are quite clear and have a certain appeal. Maybe someday I'll...

Ian

Just found this:

"(CID X RPM divided by 3456) X (BOOST divided by 14.7 + 1)
You have to treat this as two calculations. Take a 350 Chevy turning 6,000 and stuffing 8 lbs into it for example:
350 times 6,000 divided by 3456 = 607 CFM
8 divided by 14.7 = .54
Add a 1 in front of the .54 to reach 1.54
Multiply 1.54 times 607 and find that the cfm required will be 934 CFM. "

(250x5500/3456) x (6/14.7 +1) = 557 CFM.

Actually your carb is the right size assuming 6psi boost. Note: vacuum secondary carbs don't work for turbos. You'll never open the secondary because you'll never have vacuum there.

Another website said you'll likely see 350 hp at the crank at 6psi. That should really make her scoot! Looking forward to seeing the video when it's done.

I'm new to the idea of turbo charging. Where does one get vacuum for the brake booster and vac advance? Weld a bung before the turbo in the inlet piping?

Pretty good formula... It's so detailed it must be right! I'm glad the math adds up to the carb being a good size. I had to learn early on the difference between vac/mech secondaries. The 4776 I have is mechanical secondaries which can be mechanically adjusted to open at any point.

350 HP would be very acceptable. I expected to need at least 8-9# to get there but 6 would be even better.

I'm not sure either about vacuum advance. Perhaps one of the carb ports but I can imagine the lack of vacuum under boost there so I'm not sure.

I was out cleaning the valve cover, side covers, timing cover, alternator bracket, oil pan and motor mounts today and noticed I wont have an air cleaner for the side valve cover hose. I don't want to buy a new valve cover (maybe some day) so can I keep the rear pcv, plug the side breather hole and replace the filler cap with one of those baby round breathers?


Old pics of my valve cover... Kinda.


The mini breathers I'm talking about (not specifically this make/model)

Ian

I've been running a breather like that for a long time.

http://i.imgur.com/25Pqvgf.jpg

you can see it there. In fact when I bought the car it had a breather in that location.

Interesting.. I was thinking I'd plug the the aide hole and replace the filler cap with a breather. You've never had trouble with oil in that breather before?

Lastly, I'm wondering where the PCV hose goes to on a turbo setup. I've looked at a ton of pics but can't see it anywhere. I would think the carb and intake would both offer a pressurized port under booat which would close the PCV... Perhaps that's OK for the brief periods of boost? Or perhaps I wrong all together.

Ian

If I were you I'd just put in another breather instead of the PCV. It's really just there for emissions. It pulls a vacuum out of the valve cover to suck out any exhaust gases that leak through the valve seals into the valve train.

I do get some oil leakage but not a lot. It's greatly reduced (maybe none now) since I replaced my valve springs and o-rings. I think I had a bad valve o-ring or 6 before. Now the PCV keeps enough suction to pull air in there rather than push it out.

I think Tom might make a valve cover that won't spit out oil as easily out the vents.

Yeah, I think toms cover supports breather adapters that come off the side and make a 90° curve to allow any oil getting up there to run back into the cover.

Doesn't the PCV also reduce moisture that causes oil sludge in the engine? I've read people mention an engine without a PCV will be a dirty one.

I like your setup with the side breather, but maybe I can find a universal 90° elbow to allow me to mount it upright. Might not look the greatest but upgrades like fancy valve covers, side covers, 2 piece timing covers, billet alternator brackets make great birthday and Christmas present ideas.

Ian

I just ordered a cover from Tom with a single hole on tp in the front. Ot appears to me he cuts some of the holes according to order. I bought what i belive to be a breatger with internal pvc. Now i wonder if that's what i really bought. Don't know shopping date, but will post when it comes in what it's like.

Why not just send him a PM here? He can clear it all up in a minute I'm sure.

I agree, Tom will sort it out. His email is on his website too, I've had lots of quick responses from him that way.

I'm outside today cleaning and painting. I managed to get the valve cover and oil pan cleaned and prepped for paint. However, its like 6°C outside and very windy... No problem...


I put a king size mattress bag and a heater inside my daughters wooden play house. Made myself a little painting shed.


It's a little cozy but it'll due. I'm using PlastiKote grey high heat enamel primer followed by VHT's high heat metallic black pearl engine enamel paint. I have some VHT grey Fireproof engine enamel paint for detailing.

I'll post some finished pics later when they're safe to handle.
...


Finished these two. Not my best work by far but passable on a daily driver with imperfect parts. I should have done one at a time as it was tough to spray tight angles in there.


The VHT black pearl paint has a great metal flake affect to it shows up looking like a layer of dust in this horrible indoor light conditions. I have plans to paint the raised script in flat grey.

This weekend the crank, cam, rods and pistons go to the machine shop. Things are moving along.

Ian

Hey, I'm emailing back and forth with CompCams about valve springs. They want to know what the guide size and pocket size is on a 250 head. I tried googling it with no luck. Anyone know?

Ian

I don't recall but these fit without a problem:

http://m.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-981-12/

That's the springs I installed.

In my experience with a turbo'ed 250 which have logged 2000 miles or so, your best bet is to use a system like this.

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/52210/10002/-1?parentProductId=924093

I run a fresh air breather on the front of the valve cover and the evac system at the rear. It is plumbed into the exhaust just as it straightens out under the truck.

Basically, the engine is able to inhale fresh air and exhale. The result is no imbalance of pressure.

Thanks! I relayed that to compcams and hopfully they can find me a similar set with appropriate max lift.


Yes! I like this idea. I think I'm going to use a screw in breather in the front, plug the side hole and use a push in pcv cap vented to atmosphere in the back. I like the idea of venting to exhaust but I intend to run a muffler and don't want it all gunked up. I suppose I could run it to the back end on a down slope in the exhaust but it seems pointless. A hose to a spot below the oil pan seems reasonable to me. I can't imagine I'll have much blow by with low boost. I can always change it later.

Dropped the crank, rods and cam off yesterday. He has instruction to tap the crank nose and replace the stock rod bolts with ARP ones. He advised me I should consider having the new forged pistons pressed on to the rods as the floating clip system is worse for wear (Low oil distribution there?) and more likely to get loose (clip break). If done correctly, I don't see this happening. Are they just trying to up sell me on connecting my pistons to my rods (aka wrist pin pressing) or is it better to have them pressed on?

Ian

For stock rods , it is better to retain the press fit design. Aftermarket rods are designed for a bushing in the small end.

The 981 springs from comp will swim around on the stock valve guide boss. It is best to control the spring on top and bottom for better valve control.
Look up videos on youtube for spintron valve springs.
My springs work great.

Does ARP make a press fit setup to use with these stock rods? Or should I just keep the stock bolts and not waste my time with aftermarket?

I sent you an email about your valve springs.

Ian

Its always best to replace rod bolts with better ones, at the very least the stock ones are pushing 30 years old. You'll likely have to recondition the rods if you change the bolts, but its money well spent.

What kind of power/boost will the stock head gasket take? I'm already getting the Sealed Power 260-1005 complete gasket kit. Do I NEED to get a Fel-Pro Performance 1025 head gasket instead of the one in that kit?

Ian

...Sometimes I think I spend too much time typing and not enough time thinking.

I just ordered another mother load of stuff, including the Fel-Pro performance gasket that I hummed about. Also grabbed the CompCams crank/cam gears, valve lapper, valve spring compressor, 11/32" valve umbrella seals, piston ring filer, piston ring compressor, digital caliper, base/dial combo, 11" timing wheel, front oil breather cap, rear oil breather/PCV, turbo oil supply/return lines, and the sealed power complete gasket set.

All that and I still need a new fuel line. I know the dual feed line I bought has a 3/8" hose fitting but I plan to swap that with a 3/8" NPT to -6AN fitting but I need one at the pump end. I can't remember what size fitting I'd need on the Delphi MF0051 mech pump. My question is, what fitting do I need to adapt the stock pump to AN? ?/? NPT to -6AN. I used the stock bent metal line when I installed the pump. I'm away from the pump for the holidays and would love to spend the time searching for a matching fuel line but can't confirm the size. Anyone know?

Ian

Rebranded all my stuff as I've decided to document everything on my website and YouTube. Was Ian67 but now go by Turbo Camaro everywhere. Since last update I received the new 0.070" over pistons from Tlowe and got them to the machine shop. Everything was done there and got it all home last week.


Block sanded, cleaned and painted. Video on Youtube


Stripped and repainted the valve cover + new breather/PCVs installed

Going to check clearances and install the cam/crank next week. In the mean time, I want to have the surrounding parts ready to install.

Is there a good, or best place to drill in the oil pan for the turbo's oil drain line? I read within the top 1" of the pan and near a bearing cap? Don't want to do it and regret the hole later. It's an oil drain AN fitting and the connector is a 45° hose fitting.

I drilled mine about 4 inches back from the front of the pan in the middle vertically on my 292 can post a picture tomorrow mine is jic

A picture would be great. I've seen a few online but a lot of the inline threads have broken picture links.

I did what CNC recommended and had the rods reconditioned and bolts Swapped for ARP. The machine shop took it upon themselves to press fit my pistons to the rods. I still have the bag of Spirolox retainers. If I look at either end of of the wrist pins I can see the empty groove where the Spirolox would go. Should they have installed them as well? Is a press fit better than the Spirolox only setup? I didn't expect them to do that for me but it's welcomed if the result is better.

No, leave the spirolox out with press fit rods. The pins will hammer them out because the pins are fixed and can't move freely on the rods.

Exactly what I needed to know. Thanks for making it so clear.

Assembling the head tonight. Ordered a set of umbrella seals. Do they just sit on the valve stem or do you press them over the guide? Looked everywhere but can't seem to find the answer.

Edit: I didn't look everywhere as I reworded my search and found it right away. Install on stem above guide. Seals move up and down with the valve.

Thanks

Alright, I've searched high and low and don't think I'll find an answer to this. My built up 250 is running now and everything is good to go with the exception of the exhaust (pipe isn't connected to manifold yet) and valve lash.

I broke the motor in for a solid 30 minutes with no issues but when I started it the next day I could hear (over the loud lack-of exhaust) an obvious clacking. I shut it down immediately and found one of the rockers had come so loose it turned sideways! The nut for it had almost fell off the end of the guide. The rest seemed firm and slackless. I tightened it back down but I can't hear a damn thing over the loud exhaust. To make it more interesting, I think 1-2 or more valves are clacking already, so how do I get the valve lash setup? I wanted to learn how to do it while the engine was running as it seems easy (loosen till you hear clacking, tighten till you don't and then tighten another 1/4-3/4 of a turn).

Any suggestions? Should I pull the spark plugs and just attempt it (again) by manually turning the engine and using a feeler? I need to drive this thing to the shop on Tuesday to get the exhaust done but I don't want to do any damage on the way there.

Thanks

I have only ever adjusted valves using a feeler gauge. Its been awhile as most engines i play with now have hydraulic setups.

Your post helped me significantly. It prompted me to research the different methods of setting valve lash (didn't realize there was different methods for different lifters/setups) and discovered I did it wrong initially. I do have a hydraulic cam/lifter and I used a feeler gauge to give it 30 thousands clearance when it looks like I should have got it to 0 lash and then tightened the nut an additional half turn. So with that clearance I expect they are all too loose, which is why I'm hearing all kinds of clacking. Phew, At least I didn't over tighten and bung up my rods/lifters.

I'll be redoing the lash in this manner with the engine off later today. Thanks again.

I always set the valves with the engine off.
Mark the balancer at TDC and 120 and 240 degrees. Start on #1 TDC and adjust both valves by watching the pushrod hitting the lifter cup. Once it has fully touched, then tighten down another 1/2 turn. Turn crank to the next cylinder in the firing order (153624), Which is 1/3 of a turn to crank and repeat the process until you are done.

not a problem, i'm looking forward to seeing youre car get turbo'd. I've been studying your site and really appreciate the videos you post. lots of good stuff.

I'll be doing it this morning and following this fairly close. Thanks for confirming the process. You wouldn't happen to know of any posilock nuts that fit under the stock 250 valve cover? I'll probably continue to use the stock ones for now but it might be a good future upgrade.


Thanks for the feedback on the site, I'm glad to hear someone finds it useful other than me. I'm rushing to get the car back on the road so I can get it to the in laws house where I have access to a welder to mount the turbo. The turbo could be hooked up as early as this weekend. However I won't be putting any boost in it until it's got a few more miles on it.

As an interesting side note, the wastegate I chose last year (SPA Turbo 36mm Compact Adjustable) had a discontinued proprietary "S" flange that made it a concern to buy, but for the price I didn't sway. Turns out a distant relative had a waterjet cutter and was able to cut my turbo, wastegate and wastegate downpipe flanges. They turned out great and made that wastegate worth buying after all. I was going to have him make me a few of those "S" flanges but I doubt anyone else buys discontinued parts like me

Alright.. The lifters are set and she purrs like a kitten. I knew I was running rich but after hooking up the wideband today it turns out I'm running 13ish at idle with the mix screws almost all the way in and as soon as I tap the gas I go as rich as 8-10. Revving the engine brings it down from 13 to 8 every time. I get lots of dark blue smoke too. But she sure does drive nice.

The carb is a rebuilt (by me) Holley 600cfm 4776 DP - Primary main jets 65, Secondary main jets 75, Power valve 6.5, Primary Nozzle 31, Secondary Nozzle 32.

I need to be able to drive it a ways to get it to the in laws where I'll mount the turbo.

I'm pretty sure it's going to be jet sizes, so I'm hoping some carb guru could make a educated guess on a jet size to get me to around 14 when cruising. Also, is there a trick to lean out the idle more than the idle screws allow?

I was thinking of getting 58's for primaries and putting the 65's for secondaries... that sound good or should I go lower?

13 is good at idle with these engines. I have tried going leaner to 14 on mine and it did not like it.
The jets you have listed should work fine. If you aim for 14 at cruise, it will get bucky and bumbly. You will see what I mean.

Blue smoke is not a good thing, are you sure it is not black? That carb is a double pumper and can throw a lot of fuel in with the double accelerator pumps.

I know your using it for the future turbo setup. Normally, that would be too much carb to use for a N/A engine. As it has manual secondaries.

Yeah I'm fairly happy with the 13ish idle but it requires just the slightest feathering of the gas to watch it bomb to 10.

The smoke is definitely blue but it's not the typical haze I've seen, it's darker... Almost navy. My theory is I'm flushing the cylinders with excess fuel and it's burning up all oil in there. It only does it when accelerating off idle as idle and cruise are transparent. The engine still only has about 45 minutes on it so I tributed some of it to it still being new. If it doesn't go away once I get this richness sorted I'll have to check plugs and compression I guess.

I'm going to lower the fuel bowl level and see if I have any smaller nozzles as perhaps my pumps are just too aggressive.

It wouldn't be so bad if I didn't have to order in jets from off Island with a 36 hour arrival time. Plus holley doesn't make a jet kit that covers the 55-64 jets I need to play with.

Not trying to be bearer of bad news but blue smoke from accelerating off idle sounds like a valve seal leaking.

Well if you're right, that's a lot better than rings which is my fear. I used umbrella seals. I had a difficult time figuring out how they are supposed to go on. I put them with the big opening facing down and they seem to fit into the lower Groove on the valve stem right above the guide. That sound like I put them on right at least? The Rings were properly gapped and I'm quite confident I didn't put them in upside down, the instructions were clear.

None of the local repair shops carry jets so I ordered a size 58 today.

As for lowering float levels, does it have any side effect other than leaning out the mixture?

Lower grove on the valve stem? I think they go lower than that and a small o-ring goes on the lower groove. Which I guess is to keep the seal down? Also keeps the valve from being able to fully drop into the chamber if such a slip were to happen.

Yikes... so I should have the o-ring seal on the lowest grove and the umbrela "floating" between it and the guide? I have attached a picture of what I did before I put the springs on.



Big fail here or what?

EDIT: I've found a couple other forums indicating the lack of o-rings will cause the umbrella to sit in the groove loose, which will allow oil to pass and the engine will smoke.

yes it looks like thesilverbuick is correct. there is an oring that goes in the lower groove.

if the same procedure for a small block head applies to these heads then here is some info I found for ya.

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/umbrella-type-valve-seals-152885.html

Well this is unfortunate but it's most certainly my smoke issue (besides running rich) and I have everything I need already to fix it.

What is the easiest way to fix this? Is there a trick to doing this that doesn't involve removing the head? I definitely don't want a valve falling into a cylinder but it seems a shame to pull everything a part for little o-rings. Perhaps a dowel in the spark plug hole to press up on the valve and slip the ring over the stem with the retainers off? Or doing only the cylinder under compression and rotating the engine as I go? Sounds doable to me but I don't want to make things worse.

if you have a compression tester kit there should be an adapter to hook it straight to a chuck on an air hose. blow compressed air into the cylinder and the pressure will keep the valves in the head without falling into the cylinder.

If the umbrella seal doesn't go down any farther than that you have the wrong seals. The umbrella should fit over the valve guide and be able to push down and sit with the underside that fits thru the valve seated on top of the guide. Also, you don't put both the o-ring and umbrella seals on the same valve. Most shops put the umbrellas on the intake valves and the o-ring on the exhaust valves. There is also a special cover that fits over the valve tip for installing the umbrella seals so that the grooves don't scar or scratch the inside of the seal. It will shorten the life of them if its not used.

I'm just going off what it looked like when I pulled my engines apart and the engine kits came with 6 umbrella's and 12 valve stem o-rings. This is the first engine I've had that uses umbrella style seals. OE, mine only had the umbrellas on the intake. The o-ring shouldn't get anywhere near the guide, so not sure why it would be an exhaust only thing.

There is something quite wrong in your picture, as the umbrella is supposed to drop down around the guide.

Well damn. I stripped it down and immediately noticed chunks of rubber laying around the spring for cylinder #1. I pulled the spring and found this...



In case you can't see it, the umbrella seal is shredded. I can push the "mouth" of the seal over the guide if I want too, but it doesn't seem to fit as though it was meant to. If I do that, the inner spring on my valve springs seems to rub against the seal (which is why I didn't put them over the guide in the first place). Perhaps they were shredded because they were loose on the stems?

I have all 12 o-rings but no other umbrella seals. The springs I'm using are the ones from 12bolt.com and I'm nervous they'll touch anything fitted over the guides.

In case there is any confusion, I used these umbrella seals: Howard Cams 11/32 Umbrella Seals and they have exactly the same dimensions as the ones Tlowe referenced in other posts Ebay Viton 11/32 seals

They are either mis-labeled or they are the wrong seal altogether. Umbrella seals fit fairly loosely over the valve guide and seat on top of it as I and Randal have already mentioned. Your seal is getting smashed between the top of the guide and the bottom of the retainer because is has an interference fit on the guide itself and isn't seating fully on top of it. The seal should also fit inside of the valve spring with plenty of room to spare and not rub it. If it does, then either the springs are requiring the use of a smaller diameter seal such as a teflon style that requires the guide to be machined to install them(assuming the umbrella seal is the correct one and not mis-labeled), or there could have been a better choice of springs that allows the use of the stock umbrella seal to begin with.

Looking back over this thread, you said you were thinking about using a particular Howard's valve spring, but you never said if you actually selected those or something else. What part # valve springs does your cam card say to use?

I was just comparing the seals Tlowe referenced (the ebay Viton's) to the ones I have. I used a digital caliper to compare dimensions to the specs listed on ebay and mine are identical. Also, the inside diameter of 12bolt's damper spring is exactly the same as my stock springs.

If I push my seal so it fits over the guide (which I can fairly easily) it provides a snug fit on the guide and still grips the stem. However, with it over the guide the damper spring will not fit around it. There is not enough clearance between the damper spring and the guide to put the umbrella seals I used between without them touching/rubbing. The only difference between the Viton's and mine could be the thickness, but they *look* the same in the pictures.

It looks like I either need an umbrella that will ride up and down with the stem or to use the original o-rings with tin shroud under the retainer. The only thing that upsets me is switching back to the shroud/o-ring drastically affects my spring installed heights.

Ok, I was suspecting the springs to be more the problem than anything after comparing the one's in the link you provided.

The Viton umbrellas were just a recommendation based on the questions you were asking earlier in the thread. Send out to many parts to keep track of what combination everyone is using.

The springs I offer are used with either the splash shield and oring or the preferred machined guide for a pressed on positive seal.
The retainers/ lock combo I use usually sets the my spring up around 1.725.

I thought the blue smoke was a bad thing to see.

Prepare for some measurements...

For interests sake my caliper says my guides are 0.765", seals outside diameter are 0.750" that are apparently for a 0.762" guide. The internal diameter of the damper spring in both stock and my new 12bolt springs are 0.780". The Howard Cam umbrella seals I used are approximately 0.030" thick (before stretching over guide).

The guide + umbrella = 0.795" while the spring is 0.015" smaller than that. So, unless I can find a guide umbrella less than 0.015" thick, that plan is dead.

I could use the stock retainer/shroud combo and go with old school o-rings but I'd have to add the shroud (0.030") to my installed heights....

I crunched the numbers from my original valve height worksheet and I'd be 0.020" under on one, and about 0.015" under desired install height on two others. Is that manageable or will that cause problems? Keeping in mind I plan to go to larger valves in the next year or two.

EDIT: Bah, unless its no big deal, ill just order some offset locks for those and call it a day.

Thank you everyone for helping me with this... this whole project has been a big learning curve and this forum has been extremely helpful, even when I spam message it.

How are you checking the seat pressure and open pressure of your springs? The installed height is really just a baseline, whereas the spring pressures are absolutes. And just because you achieve the ideal installed height, doesn't mean the installed seat pressure or open pressures will correspond. That's why they make offset retainers and shims so you can tune the pressure more so than just the installed height. I know the .015"-.020" doesn't sound like a lot, but on a hydraulic cam it can be problem if you don't at least know where the pressures are. I guess what i'm trying to say is there are a few more important things that need to be checked in this exercise than just the installed height.

I brought the springs to my machine shop and they told me they would give me a printout for $$$ or just confirm a 1.730" installed height for free, so I went with option 2. Seemed a bit ghetto to me but they said keep close to 1.730 and the pressures would be within spec.

When I go to larger valves I intend on bringing them the head and having them determine exact heights.

I have 3 different looking valves that seem to be generally lower than the rest and they will need the 0.050" height increase to work with the shedder/ring combo.

Thanks for asking though as I could have easily missed that one

Ok, glad you checked into it.

I'd like to get a spring pressure tester. I've only used the classic method of interpolating between the two height/pressure points the manufacture gives you for the open and closed pressures, which typically after any decent amount of run time aren't accurate anymore. The full set up is pricey though.

Yeah it'd be nice to have for sure. For me personally. I'm not sure how much I'd use it. That being said, I'd be smarter to buy more basic tools like an air compressor or welder. Someday... I'll have it all

As a small update. I ordered a set of +0.050" 7 degree stem locks and a pack of 0.015" shims from Summit. I called every major suto/performance parts store in BC Canada and nobody had access to 7 degree offsets. Shipping to me was more than the parts

I put a box of Robaxacet aside as I'll be leaning over the engine bay for a bit doing spring Heights and lifter adjustments. I'll be deleting my existing YouTube video on "how to" setup the valves as it's more of a "how to not" video at this point.

Off in a new direction here. Mentally preparing for Turbo install next weekend (assuming the valve seal issue is resolved this weekend).

The turbo is going on the front driver side of the engine, probably as high as the hood will let me. I have the oil lines figured out but where are the best spots to source and return the coolant? It's just rubber hose lines feeding into banjo fittings. Hank mentioned the radiator petcock on Snowmans thread but I couldn't find any pictures or other reference to it.

EDIT: I found this. Would tapping the heater core hoses be the best way?

Thanks

I don't see a problem using heater hoses. Should make things pretty easy.

Alright, the seals have been replaced and it's just very small amounts of white smoke when revving the engine. I'm happy with that while the engine runs so rich. Which brings me to my situation. The car is running mostly rich but it's manageable

Carburetor is a 600CFM DP with Mech Secondaries. 58 Main jets, 65 Secondaries and a 6.5 power valve. Idle screws out 1.25 turns. Vacuum while in park is about 18. Vacuum while in Drive fluctuates between 12-13. Idle in park is about 8500 and in Drive about 6000. Initial timing 10* and total timing at 40*. Seems my distributor curve is longer than some.

Park AFR: 10.5-11
Drive AFR: 12.5
Initial Acceleration AFR: 12-13.5
Transmission shift from 1st to 2nd gear spikes lean for just a moment to 15-16 AFR
Crusing in 2nd/3rd AFR: 13ish
Accelerate up steep grade from low speed AFR: 16-18
Slow crawl up steep grade (3-5mph): 14-15

I had a couple backfires on initial engine start (2 weeks ago) so I changed the power valve today. It made a difference in the mid range but the shift point and hill(s) are still a problem.

I know this is a lot of info but I hope someone might recognize the problem or provide some advice. I want to drive it about 60km tomorrow evening so I can fabricate a turbo down pipe over the weekend. I don't need to make it perfect and get the turbo on only to start all over again, but a bit better would be nice.

Thanks!

Are 58 main jets the correct ones as delivered from Holley? Or are all jets to Holley spec? That is the best place to start tuning.

Does that carb have 4 idle screws, 2 in the primary and 2 more in secondary.

The stock sizes for this carb are 65/72 but I swapped them down to 58/65 to raise the cruise AFR from 9-10 to its current 13. They are actual holley brand jets if that was your concern. It has 2 idle screws. I rebuilt this carb to spec with all new parts. Throttle plates adjusted to spec (transition slots square). Other than the primary jet size and idle screws, it's all spec.

I stayed up till 4am reading last night and have created a list of things to check today:

- PCV functioning? (it's brand new but cheap so who knows)
- Float bowls (confirm height after its been apart a few times)
- Accelerator pump tight (was tight but have been changing jets and PV so better double check)
- Secondaries opening smoothly?
- Consider inserting narrow Wire in idle circuit to lean the mix
- what is Vacuum during hill climb (should be PV size)

I'll check all these things and post my findings.

Which wide band are you using? They can be very good reference tools, but sometimes lead you a stray with tuning if you are glued to the readings.

From my experience.
For idle, aim for 13.5
Cruise 12.75-13
WO throttle 12.5

These chambers are very lazy and seem to like fuel.

Does your carb have a secondary PV?

I have the AEM UGEO wideband (Bosch 4.9 LSU sensor) with 52mm Analog style gauge. It seems accurate but yeah, I'm pretty OCD about things and could easily see myself buying every cam and spring to make it exactly how I want, instead of how it needs to be.

I went to pull my PCV today (Spectre chrome cap style) and sure enough, the PCV housing broke right off the valve. I had to somewhat mangle the valve to get it out as it was pressed in there good. The valve was stuck closed upon testing, but I can't say for sure if it was before I mangled it. Luckily I kept the original one and it works fine, I cleaned it and may attach the chrome housing to it for looks.

Float bowls are both still set to spec. I didn't change them. Both accelerator pumps are solid and respond to the throttle.

I ended up putting a small piece of wire in each idle restriction port on the primary metering block. First thicker wire I chose leaned it out so bad it would only start with the throttle partially down. I ended up with a very fine strand that worked perfectly. Now it idles around 13.5 and cruises to 3000 or so RPM between 12.5-13.5. I may need to increase primary jets after all but I'll get the turbo on before I go further.

That's all good news, but it still dogs it up hills or any kind of low speed load. I was too distracted by the lean wideband (16-17) and trying not to stall on the hill to think about the vacuum. I suspect my "under load" vacuum is closer to 8-10" so my 6.5 power valve isn't opening when needed.

This carb does not have a secondary PV.

Bought the 3" VBand clamp, flange and a 3" U-J mandrel bent pipe today. I have to go up a ferry ramp tomorrow to get to the welder... if it makes it, the turbo should be on tomorrow.

Thanks!

Do you have a higher # PV, like a 8.5?

I played with the vacuum gauge and idle a bit more today and got it closer to 19" while idling in drive. Very high but I don't have power brakes so maybe that's why? I made it the 60km journey today and it really has a hard time on the few hills and accelerating between 40-60mph. I'm convinced it's the low PV as the lowest I observed the vacuum at was the 10" line. So I'm going to hunt down a 10 or even 10.5 tomorrow and see what that does. Seems like a big number but it's just a bit above holleys recommended 50% max. Either way, once the turbos on I might need the extra enrichment.

I'll let ya know if I go too rich again.

if it's that high you need a 9.5 or more.

Agreed. I went with a 10.5 and wouldn't you know it, it mostly fixed my acceleration issue. I still have a fairly rich idle and a lean bog on initial acceleration.

No more blue smoke with the o-rings and shedders back on though!

I'm pretty convinced my tinkering with idle and timing has buggered the transfer slot configuration (causing lean bog) so I'll probably pull the carb off and start from there. Might install the nitrophyl floats as I understand they're less likely to collapse under pressure.

Turbo up and down pipe are fabricated, just gotta attach the wastegate flange and its "out" pipe and we're in business. Had to leave the pipes out of town so it will be a few weeks before final assembly. Will give me time to get the carb right (then mess it up with a turbo) and plumb the already mounted intercooler. Braided oil lines and various "last minute" pieces are in the mail now. Once they arrive we'll get into boost.

any updates? I've been following your page best i can. Looking forward to this.

Hey, not sure if you're following me on Youtube/Facebook/Twitter but I have recently plumbed the BOV, intercooler and got it ready for turbo hookup. Had to modify the Spectre plenum to fit under the hood and cross over the valve cover. The 3" piping was tricky to the intercooler but overall I'm pretty happy with it.



I mentioned the up/down pipe above but didn't show it. The assembly is painted with VHT flat aluminum header paint. 2.5" out the manifold to a squared 4" piece attached to the T4 flange. Out the back of the turbo is a 3" from a v-band flange.



I received the rest of my AN fittings for the oil lines the other day but the blasted manual boost controller is taking its sweet time. I would have probably installed it all already but the Camaro is being used in a family members wedding for photos and transport so I don't really want to interfere with that or hurry to get it working in time. The tuning will probably take some trial and error.

Sorry to resurrect my thread, but it made sense to keep it together. Since the last post, I've had the engine running well and floating around 5# boost. It's been great except I've had some oil burning issues. I had some worn guides and I couldn't seem to keep the o-rings intact after install.

I just pulled it apart and dropped the head at the shop. They did the works on it and it's now good for positive seals and I went with 1.8/1.6 valves as well.

I was walking out of the machine shop and the owner told me to install the positive seals on all the guides, but to be safe, put o-rings with NO shedder's on them all as well. This seems counter-productive, as won't the positive seals be more than adequate? Anyone go this route or use both seals before?

Thanks!

I don't use Orings if the positive seals are used.

What's a No Shedder?

I mean, he said to use the positive seals and o-rings without using the oil shedders on top (Not certain if they go by a different name, but the tin umbrella that covers the top of the spring). I searched for hours to find out if someone has ever done that combo but had no luck. Seems like both seals would likely starve the stem of needed lube, and guarantee maintenance with those o-rings in place.

Are you referring to the umbrella seal as oil shedder?

I hope I'm not using the wrong terminology, but I've aways referred to the tin cup as an oil shedder and the smaller rubbers seals that ride the stem as umbrellas.

Either way, I'm referring to the part referenced in the image below (not my cylinder head).



As of right now, I'm about done installing the positive seals with no intention of using o-rings or the above tin shedders/umbrellas/deflectors.

Oil deflectors? Most people I know don't run them depending on your lift and such might be enough to bind the spring

Ah, those things.