Has anyone out there messed with the 4.2L I6 from GM? I aquired one to put in my 70 Chevelle. It looks like the biggest problem is going to be the trans as this motor doesn't use a std. chevy V8 bellhousing bolt pattern. I don't want to use a auto and am looking for a 5 or 6 speed to bolt up. The one out of the Chevy Colorado should fit but after turbocharging this engine should be 300-400HP and I doubt that trans will take it. Any ideas? Thanks.

toyman01

If you turboed that new L6 it should be much more then 300 for sure. Because in Stock trim it has 270 and with a few adjustments with the comp It came with was about to click That 300 mark with out much effort. But also You Need EVERYTHING that came with that motor as far as the computor goes. Unless You find another way Or a after market computor.Because it is my understanding You even needed to have all The anti lock brakeing stuff as well Because Everything Ran off the computor. Now I could be wrong But if i was you I would look into a little deeper Just my2cents hope it helps }[oooooo]

hello....well, seems we hear from here and there about those working with this engine....Glenn Self Racing has been working with this engine recently....but, they dont use the computer set up....WHAT A RELIEF TOO!!!!!-there is still HOPE!!!!!!! .....LOL....seems what i have found out they are using bare bones approach -a "good ole" 4 barrel and headers approach with cams change.....

seems there is ALOT of good discussion of turbo and Fuel Injection on all these Inline engines....why not start with proven head work and a good 4 barrel set up ? has always worked, always will....seems they are getting good results-I have always thought that would be the way to go with the new Inline 6-glad someone has already found out that is a GREAT approach -and more than likely less $$$$ input.....

I am sure many have great plans-keep it up....

Well for me it's because I'm already more comfortable with computers and EFI than I am with carburetors. I'm 19 so I grew up into an injected world, it was never something new that came along. And while I can see the advantages of carbs I'm just more inclined towards EFI.

From what I read too, EFI is really the only way to do turbo setups to their full potential. But I've never actually done a turbo setup (on my first) so.....

As for the 4200, I think it's great that there's a new generation inline for us to play with. The more research and development into it the better I say. I haven't worked on one but I'd definetely take one if it came to me.

Once you have tried EFI (yes there is a learning curve to it - but wasn't "EVERYONE" scared of elecronic ignition when it first came out) the ease of tuning 95% will give up on carbs.

Yes I've tuned holley, q-jets, thermo-quad, but efi has them all beat hands down.

hello..nice comments...have you had both Fuel and carb engines? Which do u like for raw power?

we all have our choices..i like my fuel injection vehicle, but for raw performance I prefer my drag race setup up and daily driver carb set ups-i built them for performance and carbs do that,,,for those wanting the Fuel Injection, Have you spent $$$$ on modifying your cylinder head 1st? so more air flows? TRY that 1st with a carb-i guess till u do it it doesnt seem right?...what do you think?.......seems NASCAR and MOST drag racing groups know where performance can be found...yes, Fuel Injection can be fun, but......

Lee,

My 406 SBC that is now injected started with a full head port on world products castings - they started as 190 cc intake runners and now are at 210-215 cc.
It orignally had a holley 750 DP, for raw power is was fine - but crapy fuel economy at part throttle. Once it was injected I picked up 35 ft-lbs of torque and 20 hp below 3500 rpm at the rear wheels. I have the mustang dyno runs logged.

So overall performance its hard for me to justify running a carb anymore.

Yes EFI takes more effort to install and tune but its worth it. It is frustrating at times yes, but the ease of tuning from the drivers seat is un-matched, no more pulling carb bowls off and dripping gas over a hot manifold while changing jets. It does take determination to get through the inital startup.

Take a look at www.msefi.com and see how many people have changed over. Even Car Craft ran an article on it last year.

Will there be a place for carbs - yes, if I was building a vehicle that had to be able to be fixed in the sahara desert - a carb and points ignition is hard to beat for simplicity ( and yes I still own a dwell-tach).

Just my 2 cents.

hello..Excellent point...sounds like a GREAT set-up....my comments are related to Inline 6 engines . specifically carb vs fuel injection setups.....

The reason NASCAR is still running carburetors is because the rule book for Cup cars states single 4 barrel carb only. It also states no computers.
Those two small items eliminate the use of fuel injection of any kind whether mechanical or electronic. NASCAR limits the age of the body style so fans are looking at up to date body styles but their engine rules are still stuck back in the 50's.

Under steady operating conditions like 500 miles at Daytona it probably doesn't mean a lot which type of fuel system you have but if carbs produced a perfect mixture under every possible engine condition then Formula 1 cars would still be running carbs I would think.

I'm old school and will probably always run carbs on my engines but I am also beginning to understand what computerised fuel management systems are all about and the advantages they offer over carburetors. Not exactly my type of car but I do pay attention to all those little Tuner buzz bombs that are running in the 7's and 8's at the strip. Something I have noticed is not one of them runs a carburetor yet they seem to produce an over abundance of raw horsepower.
Maybe its the ceremonial Saki toast before the races that makes them go that quick.

Mike

I personaly do not think your going to beat injection performance with a carb. It's like running side draft webbers on our L6s becuase of the nice straight air flow their hard to beat when when it comes to performance.No I don't run either I still run carbs. And for faster and better tunableity electronics is hard to beat. But evenything has it's own time and place.

It's like a turbo over a blower. The turbo to me is more reliable and doesn't take any power to run.(make power) Where as the blower needs a Belt and Takes power from the motor to make power. BUT You just can't beat the Nice blower whine and the lopy cam sound out the exhaust But it is also the Eye(candy) catching appeal & sound everyone likes to see and hear. But it also has to do with what one can afford Or not to afford to do with their Toys. You can never please everyone sometimes not even ones self. We all want Everything and the Best of everything and for as cheap as we can get it. LOL

But in a world where bigger is better This why our L6s have fallen to a very small market. But untill we can over come,this bigger is better world we'll remain the same and We'll always be different.
But as a club that we are, maybe one day things may change. As each year passes I see how the club has become bigger. But our market still remains the same very small.But who knows maybe one day this will change to??As many try to bring new things to us. }[oooooo]

Thanks just my vented 2cents

hello..great comments!!!!!! thanks!!!!!!....so, has any Inliner here gone from a performance carb set up to fuel injection ? I would love to hear what that person says specifically about Inline 6's and the plus's and minus's of this change....what I am specifically talking about is the Inline 6 we all enjoy....

Also, has anyone done a Bolt-in Lump yet and compared differences?

Not being familiar with the Colorado parts, do the manual transmissions use a separate bellhousing or is the bellhousing a non-removable portion of the the tranny? If removable it should work with the 6. If not you can always make an adapter plate, like hooking a TH350 to a 235, to connect a conventional pattern bellhousing. You will probably want to space the flywheel out a similar amount. You will definitely need to rebalance everything when you add the clutch etc to the motor.

Also, not sure on the crankshaft, but make sure you can find a flywheel that will mount up and support a clutch that will handle the power this thing will put out.

I definitely understand your wanting to use a manual trans, but in this case an automatic would make things considerably easier.

There is one point here that is being missed, an engine does not know what name is on its valve cover nor does it care where and how it get its A/F mixture from, a rag soaked in gas will run a motor for a little while.

Not does the engine care if its a 1 cylinder lawn mower engine or a 24 cylinder radial aircraft engine. All it want is to be fed, sparked, lubed and cooled.

The point being that the fact that the 6 cylinders are in a row has minimal effect on tuning, what works on a rice burner and/or a V8 will work on a straight 6. Collectively we need to "get over" the 6 in a row to go stigma and start pushing the grey matter to make the engines more tunable and efficient.

Ok more than 2 cents this time.

Personally,EFI to me is a mystery sometimes.
That's why I pay a local shop to work on my van.
But I wouldn't have it any other way for every
day use. It's smooth,efficient,miserly on fuel, so all I have to do is just point and shoot. My '55,now that's another car altogether and the most fun to drive;carbs,noise,and getting noticed.It's part of my era and I ain't interested in changing it.And,NASCAR will stick with carbs because it's the smart thing to do. It's easier to control(rule bending) and cost less $$$ then EFI. F1 has no limits on engines and computers and that's why I don't have to see a race on TV. The winner will be a German in a red car because they spend the most bucks. :p

"have you had both Fuel and carb engines? Which do u like for raw power?"

Well I've never looked into to a good carb setup to be totally honest. Well, not beyond asking price. I figure for about the same money I can build a EFI setup. I'm not really in a place to test both myself although I admit it'd be interesting. The EFI is almost certainly the better system in concept but for a L6 the carbs have a lot more R&D behind them. Could be close.

Hey toyman01, I thought that engine had a front sump oil pan and would not work in chevelle etc.?
Dano

if i remember correctly there was a write up on these motors and component interchangability in one of the car mags about two years ago. i'll see if i can dig it up. as a guess does the old2.8 v6 bell bolt pattern line up. tom
on the fuel injection debate, they both produce good power numbers with correct tuning. the fuel injection will win with it's more precise metering over a larger rpm level. sorry lee

Wow!, I finally found someone else working this swap! I'm knee deep in this also. My 4200 is going into an old Dodge Power Wagon.

The ECU is a huge problem here. It's so integrated to the host vehicle, (Trailblazer). That it may be impossible to re-program for stand alone operation. I has been done, but GM is unwilling to give up any info. I've discussed this with just about every aftermarket programer with the same results: "we can't help you with that engine".

Some other roadblocks are the variable cam phasing & the coil on plug ignition.

However, I have found some who can help:

MoTec:
Can program thier M-600 Computer to run this engine. Real high-end full race stuff. $5000.00+

http://www.motec.com

Westers Garage:
May be able to use the ECM from a 3800 Camaro or Firebird to run the IFI and Ignition. But not the cam phasing. They are also triing to hack the stock 4200 ECM to get my engine to run.

http://westers_garage.eidnet.org/scprice.htm

Dave Kelton (Dr. K.)
Has access to software & may be able to crack the stock ECM. I sent him my VIN and he's working on it now.

256-543-7165

Squire Inc:
They can clean up your harness and defeat the VATS.

479-243-9115

Speartech:
John Spears has a lot of experience with GM EFI including the 4200. His shop did some programing work on the 4200 for GM and he had them running on a test stand with the stock computer! (see photo's on his website). However, GM took all the stuff back when the project was completed. Maybe if enough of us ask, he'll do some work writing a program so our 4200s can run stand-alone.

http://www.speartech.com/

I hope this helps, I've been at it for about 6 months now, and still don't have a running engine. But I'm that much closer. Let me know how you've made out.

Have you ever looked into MegaSquirt to control that engine? I have heard a lot of good things about it. It’s a Do-It-Yourself programmable electronic fuel injection controller that is very reasonable priced. (i.e. from $200 to $500 not $5000+) It is an Extremely versatile kit for nearly any engine and can even provide ignition control with MegaSquirtnSpark. Just go to http://www.msefi.com/ It is a lot of reading but it is worth it. I plan to install a MegaSquirt on to my 250 in the future but that is yet to come. Hope this can help.

Yeah, I've been watching them closely, (I post over there under Hemiman also). Been waiting for the Ultra Megasquirt to be released. Seems they haven't been doing much with it as of late though. I'd go with the Megasquirt II, but even that's not availible yet.

Well I finally got my computer problems resolved, (I hope). Got it set to run the engine stand alone. Now I've sent my harness out to Speartech to have it trimmed out.

Now I've got to solve transmission issues. The 4200 only comes from the factory with and automatic. I'm going to use an NV4500 5 speed. So I've got to find a flywheel and bell housing.

Bell housing: The 4200 has the same bell housing bolt pattern as the GM 60deg V-6 as well as the Jeep 151 4cyl. I'm planning on going with the Jeep bell housing since Advance Adapters makes an adapter to mate the NV4500 to this bell housing.

Flywheel: The 4200 uses a 160 tooth flex plate. The Vortec I-4 and I-5 also use a 160 tooth design and they are offered with a manual trans. Unfortunatly GM has a different crank flange on these two engines. So, I've sent my Vortec 2800 I-4 flywheel out to the machine shop. Some other flywheels to consider would be Buick V-6 & V-8 flywheels, all 160 tooth, but still need the center hole & bolt pattern for the crank changed.

Oil pan: The 4200 is cast aluminum with a front sump. My 4X4 needs a rear sump. So I've been checking with fabricators to see if we can cut and weld to move the sump to the rear. Too bad GM didn't make the pan symetrical, then all I would have to do is turn it around. I still may try this approach since it is quite close.

I'll try to post some photo's when I get a chance.

To partially answer the original question, I spoke with Glenn Self on the phone about the potential for this engine when I saw the naturally aspirated one in Hot Rod that made 590 HP with a 3-2bbl setup on it. He said the engine needed extensive custom work and some custom (read: mui dinero) pieces to get it to make big power. He also said the cylinder head made it worth it. I asked him if he was trying to turbo his way to 650hp (which is the number I needed) which way would he go 4.2 or 292 and he said the 4.2 would be his choice. We didn't get into detail on computer at all, I was mostly concerned with durability. If you are serious about the swap, they have done some work on this engine and can help you out.

Talked to Glen yesterday. He's now getting over 1000HP with the boost! The car and engine are going to be featured in an upcoming issue of Hotrod.

I think your biggest challenge will be controlling the variable camshaft timing that these engines have. It is a rather complicated hydraulic dithering system that even gave the factory engineers fits. Maybe you could find a way to "lock" the cams in place. Of course that will reduce performance at certain modes; otherwise you will need the full boat factory electronics installed to get the required inputs and feedback. Good luck.

Frenchtown- I heard Glen locked the cams on the 3-2 motor to make it run.

I also heard that you cannot use sections of a 4.2 wireing harness to make the motor run is this true?

Steven

The cam on the 4200 will lock to full retard (25deg) when no signal is received from the ECU.

My harness can now be trimmed out since I've had all the unnessesary inputs turned off in the ECU. My ECU is now only looking for: Crank Position, Cam Position, Fuel, Ignition, MAP, Air Temp, Water Temp, O2 sensor, Throttle Position, Knock sensors. Basically, all the chassis info has been deleted. It's calibrated as if the engine were on a dyno.

Who did your ECU work?

yeah,
who did the computer work - looking at that engine for my 57 chevy pickup!

I know this sounds lame, but I can't tell you who did the ECU right now. I've got a contract with a magazine. My truck and it's mods are going to be featured in a series of articles, and they're a bit funny about me giving away too much info.

I can correct something I wrote before. The 4200's flywheel has 161 teeth not 160 as I noted before. The Vortec I-5 3500 flywheel is made of cast iron and wont machine easily or inexpensivly. So I sent my specs to an aftermarket manufacturer and they're making me a steel one. They'll stock it with a part number. They'll also have it available in aluminum for you racers.

I'll post more details as soon as I can.

Thanks,

Once the article is publish give us a heads up so we can look at it.

My 4200 is up and running. I plan to put it in my '41 Chevy Coupe, which we will be driving to the Denver Convention in June 2006.

I offed the cam phaser and replaced it with an intake side cam sprocket. This requires a small bushing and uses the intake cam bolt. Cams are timed straight up. In the exhaust cam position sensor hole I installed an S-10 distributor, which is now driven by the exhaust cam using a 90 degree spiral bevel gear set. I use Megasquirt EFI and have found it works well as it uses stock GM sensors. Stock injectors only flow 25 lbs/hr at 50 lbs/sq in, so HP is limited to about 300. I'd like to find some 42 lb units that would fit in the stock location.

For the oil pan I took the front half of a 5 cylinder pan and welded it to the rear half of the 6 cylinder pan. I used the 5 cylinder oil pickup tube extended 4" to the rear. On the flat surface on the rear of the oil pan I bolted a 5 quart sump. The pan now holds 7 quarts. I'm using the 5 speed trans from the Colorado with the clutch from the 5 cylinder which fits the 6 cylinder flywheel Part #24577365 Export. This should be adequate for mild street use. I have photos of all this and will be preparing an article for "The 12 Port News." (Call if you want to hear it run -- 530-795-0224, Winters, California.)

is there a link or website for the "The 12 Port News"? this sounds like a good way to go since i worry the computer reprogramming mentioned by hemiman may not be available soon. hemiman - any idea when these articles will come out for us poor suffering six-souls?

It is our intent to supply information and components so that other Inliners can successfully use this engine. The issue, of course, is that it will take time. We will keep you informed as progress is made.

Ray,
Go to the link to "newsletter". It is on the left of your screen. There you will be able to purchase a trial issue and/or join Inliners International. The 12 Port News is the official newsletter of the Inliners.
Jim

Might be of some help. Read this then pay attention to item #13.

http://www.jeeps-offroad.com/showthread.php?t=4740

Todd Kozak ( djd@acsworld.com ) has some 3500 bellhousings.

Greg

Thanks for the heads up! My bell housing is being shipped as I write this!

Be still heart.....



http://www.smithracecraft.com/gallery/gallery.html

Colorado\Canyon 3.5L\2.8L bellhousing. Bolts straight up to a Toyota Supra Turbo R154 5-speed.

[img]http://www.jeeps-offroad.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4929[/img]

Greg

Those are some cool pics!
btw cool name too!

any more news on the 4.2 swap? wiring/cam changes?

My swap is moving foreward once again, thanks to some help from members on theis board. (Thanks Jerry and Greg 55!).

I've avoided the hassel of using a Jeep bell housing by going with a bell from a Vortec 3500 out of a Colorado, (didn't have to mess with relocating the starter hump. I got this from Todd Kozak.

My harness is back from John Spears Speartech. What a difference! I had him ship all the wiring he cut out so I can show it in the article. The scrap took up 90% of the shipping box! John provided detaled instructions with the harness so it should be a "Plug-N-Play operation.

Working on getting the trans, (NV-4500) set up. Should be another month before final install. (Keep in mind I have to do everything two or three times to get the photo's right).

Haven't heared back from McLoud on my flywheel. However, Jerry is going to help me out here also.

My oil pan is the final problem to overcome. I need a rear sump. So, I'll probaly use a pan made up of the Vortec 3500 & 4200 cut & welded together. Similar to jerry's solution.

This and other web sites have been a real blessing, I probably couldn't have done it without your help!

Thanks!

Hey Hemiman,
Out of curiosity. What Jeep bellhousing were you at one time thinking of using? Also, how are you bolting up the NV4500 to the Colorado bell?

Greg

The Jeep 4 cyl bell housing has the same bolt pattern (engine side) as the Vortec and other GM engines, (60deg V-6's & 4 cyl, Northstar V-8's).

This dates back to when Jeep used the GM Iron Duke 4 cyl.

The Vortec 3500 uses the NV-3500 trans which shares the same bolt pattern as the AX-5 used on Jeep 4 cyl engine.

Advance Adapters makes a plate to convert Jeeps from AX-5/NV-3500 to an NV-4500. I may have issues with input shaft length on the NV-4500 relative to the depth of the Vortec bell housing. But it's pretty close, so it looks doable.

Well Hemiman, I'll just say this with all respect. All of the info you just posted is not correct. Please allow me to do a David Spade imitation from those TV commercials:

NO! The Vortec 4.2\3.5\2.8 looks similar to the GM 60 degree pattern, but they are NOT the same. None of the holes will line up. I can send you a pic of a 60 degree bell next to a Vortec bell if you like.

NO! The Iron Duke has a Chevy V8 bolt pattern. The AMC\Jeep 2.5 inherited the 60 degree pattern when AMC used GM 2.8L V6's in Cherokee's.

NO! The Vortec 3500\2800 both use a transmission called the MA5 which is a derivative of the Isuzu AR5 which is a derivative of the Toyota R150 and Jeep AX15.

NO! The good news is, you've got the CORRECT 3500\2800 bellhousing to get your project moving so you didn't dump money down the Jeep bellhousing rathole. Anyway, the adapter you need from Advance Adapters is for the Jeep AX15 to NV4500 (NOT AX5). So don't order the wrong item.

[img]http://www.jeeps-offroad.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3219[/img]

http://www.jeeps-offroad.com/showthread.php?t=4740

I hope this is helpful. I'm eager to see your results!

Greg

Man, I screwed that one!

Funny thing is, I thought I was quoting your post from Jeeps-offroad,(from memory, my printout of that forum was at home). I got home from work last night and looked at my notes only to realize just about everything I posted was wrong.

Funny thing is, I never made the connection that you are the same guy on both these sites. I'll tell you one thing. The info on that Jeep site is the best I've ever seen when it comes to trannies & bell housings, (the Fiero guys have some good info too).

I also checked my addapter. It is the AX-15 to NV-4500. So once again, thanks for the accurate info. I ordered that back when I first found your post. (Glad I didn't do that from memory).

The only thing I really surprises me is that none of the 60deg bell housing bolt holes would line up. I was advised that, one hole would have to be redrilled, and the starter hump relocated, (this was straight from GM sources).

Now, a few questions on the NV-4500. My truck has a divorced transfer case, (NP-200) I'm looking for the shortest NV-4500 out there. I also need it to be a two wheel drive unit. Right now I've got a rebuildable Chevy 2wd unit.

However, there is a modified, (shortened) trans on E-Bay. Guy says it's for a Toyota Land Cruiser swap. Do you know anything about this modification? Seems the Jeep CJ-5 guys could use a shortened version as well.

Also, using the Vortec 3500 bell with the AX-15 adapter, do you know if the Dodge input shaft would be a direct bolt in,(like on a Jeep), or should I stick with the shorter Chevy input and use an extended pilot?

PS. I'm placing the Jeep site in my favorites as we speak.

Thanks again!

hemiman,
i hope you dont mind me asking - what did it cost to have the wiring and compputer straightened out, and did it delete the VATS? you can PM me if you would like. i am considering this swap with automatic trans to a 57 chevy truck but i am waiting to see how yours and jerrys work out.

thanks

Well Hemiman, I can't help you much on the NV4500. All I know is from this article about the swap:

http://www.off-road.com/jeep/reviews/yj1-nv45001.htm

Looks like you may have to ask that question on a Jeep forum. However, I should point out that you'll need an input shaft as close to 8" long as you can. That's to work with the Colorado bell and adapter plate together. I found some info here:

http://www.high-impact.net/transmission_and_gear/nv4500.htm

As for the bolt pattern matching the 60 degree GM one... let's put that myth to rest.

On the left, Canyon bell. On the right, 60 degree 2.2L S10 bell. Close, but no cigar...

Greg

Speartech did my harness for $450.00. Did a real nice job.

The first article on my truck is going to be published in the next issue of "Military Vehicles Magazine"

This series of articles features step by step upgrades on a 1953 Dodge M-37. The first covers the simple task of installing locking hubs. Each issue will upgrade the truck further until it's ready for the 4200 Re-power.

I know you folks here would like to get right to the engine, but I had to sequence this in a way that could be reproduced by the reader, & be safe to drive.

Sequence will pretty much go as follows:

Hubs

Master Cylinder

Disc brakes

Radial Tires

Final drive gears

Centered rear-end

Engine and trans install

Engine wiring and fuel system

The editor may chose to double up some of the upgrades, (ie. Master cyl. and disc brakes).

So, please be patient. Were almost there!

hemiman,
i have talked with speartech and they say they can do the full harness thing - great! however they say they cannot do the computer thing to get rid of the anti-theft device. how did you get around that?
thanks

Dave Kelton (Dr. K.)
Has access to software & may be able to crack the stock ECM. I sent him my VIN and he's working on it now.

256-543-7165

Hey Ray~! Try the above .


Brien.
NEW YORK

brien,
thanks for the heads up.

The Smith Race Craft/ Self Racing Chevy II wagon is in the current HOT ROD as part of their fastest street car article. It ONLY ran in the mid-9's and is "streetable". I have no idea how much money is invested in it, but it is definitely cool.

I just recieved the ONLY Vortec Twin Turbo 4200 Engine picture ever taken by GM today.

It has never been released to the Press and is a whopping 5.4Mb of Color.


http://tinyurl.com/7uje4


I had the .jpg reduced in MB size > fits the screen perfectly now > nice Screensaver !

Enjoy !

OK,

The first in my series of articles is out! Military Vehicles Magazine, issue # 111, Pg 42. You'll find one of the coolest trucks on the planet. Soon to be powered by one of the coolest engines.

Like I said, this issue deals with hubs, but stay tuned! The engine is coming up.

Military Vehicles Magazine is also a good source for GM 302, Reo 331, & Continental I-6 engines and parts.

I also have a Vortec 4200 - trying to get it into my 50 Chev Pickup. Right now it is sitting on a stand. I have been toying with getting the Megasquirt, but have found nobody else that has done it (or that wants to divulge) It is a great engine though -

Someone on here adapted a distributor the 4.2 vortec intake camshaft and is running megasquirt.

I'm running megasquirt (MS) on another engine type for 3 years now.

Currently MS doesn't support coil on plug ignition - its on the list to do but not ready yet. A solution to this is either adapt a dist. or install a ford EDIS wasted spark system that IS supported by megasquirt. Just recently MAF is now supported from a 2nd s/w variant, which will make tuning high horsepower engines much easier.

The h/w to support coil on plug is most like 8 to 12 months out before its ready for mass consumption. Once it is ready all the headaches of trying to make the stock ECM work will go away.

I'm currently running MS2 which is the most current module, as of this week its ready for mass consumption. This module has the hardware built in to support CAN bus which will allow multiple MS2 to talk together using 1 as a master and others as slaves. Where this will lead is to electronis trasmission controllers, boost control, and most likely data loggers.

The MS2 is a progression toward the UMS system which when completed will rival or best any of the top aftermarket ecm's out there e.g. electromotive.

Great posts... I read the one that did the distributer. I may try to figure that out. Or just wait for an EXM that will work... Maybe the UMS. Ahhh well I really wanted to get rid of the 327. Maybe I'll just use a 250 for a while - if I can find one in florida.

I tried to get a complete engine on Ebay - but shipping was a killer.

Anyone have a 250 around Tampa they want to let loose?

Aaron

Typo ECM.

The engine was a great deal - got it with a 460LE, all wiring and the PCM for less than a grand - 2004 with less than 10K on it.

Now when will I be able to use it.

Aaron

MAF for 2006. Answered prayer!

Ok - but , MAF for Turbo ?

ehhhh,, tell me why ?

There is no real reason not to run MAF on a turbo car. The reasons people don't are: 1)intake plumbing gets complicated on multiple turbo setups. 2)most aftermarket ecm's don't support maf setups. 3)You have to keep buying maf's as you increase your power level. Too big a maf doesn't have enough sensitivity at low rpm, and too small is a restriction.
I used to be into 2.3 turbo fords (turbocoupes, SVO mustangs). They were maf. Well, actually they used an air door, but it was basically the same setup. They worked just fine.

MAF is good for modified engines with EFI because it directly measures the airflow, instead of using a lookup table to determine the airflow from absolute pressure in the intake manifold combined with RPM. That system is called speed-density, and works great, without the possible restriction of a MAF airflow sensor. However, it has to be re-tuned every time you chage something because the airflow characteristics change.

Vortec 4200 4.2L I-6 (LL8)

2005 Model Year Summary

· Application in 2005 Saab 9-7X
· Improved cam phaser
· Returnless fuel injection
· Improved compression rings
· Improved intake manifold and throttle body gaskets
· Improved ORVR purge valve
· Vented starter solenoid
· Improved throttle mapping
· NVH enhancements
· GF-4 engine oil


FULL DESCRIPTIONS OF NEW OR CHANGED FEATURES

APPLICATION IN SAAB 9-7X
GM Powertrain’s 4.2L inline six-cylinder (RPO LL8) will power Saab’s first sport-utility vehicle, the 2005 Saab 9-7X. LL8’s built for this application are identical to those powering GM’s mid-size SUVs. The Saab 9-7X was designed to be capable of higher lateral and braking g loads and a higher top speed than the typical SUV, potentially creating additional demands on the engine’s lubrication and cooling system. The LL8 was validated for these higher demands with no modifications.


IMPROVED CAM PHASER
The Vortec 4200 is now equipped with a vane-type cam phaser, replacing the helical spline and piston phaser used since the engine’s launch. The vane phaser represents the current state-of-the-art in cam phaser and it delivers several benefits.

The Vortec 4200 was one of the world’s first truck engines with variable valve timing, or cam phasing. The cam phaser changes exhaust cam lobe timing relative to the cam-drive sprocket, which in turn varies exhaust valve timing on the fly, maximizing engine performance for given demands and conditions. At idle, for example, the exhaust cam is at the full advanced position for minimum intake-valve overlap. That allows exceptionally smooth idling. Under other operating demands, the phaser adjusts to deliver optimal exhaust-valve timing for performance, drivability and fuel economy. The result is linear delivery of torque, with near-peak levels over a broad rpm range, and high specific output (horsepower per liter of displacement) without sacrificing overall engine response, or drivability. Because it manages valve overlap at optimum levels, cam phasing also eliminates the need for an Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) system.

As it was with the spline-piston phaser, the new vane phaser is actuated by hydraulic pressure from engine oil, and managed by a solenoid that is set to a specified duty-cycle and controls oil pressure on the phaser. Yet the operating mechanism is different. Instead of helical spline and piston, the vane phaser uses a wheel with four vanes (like a propeller) to turn the camshaft relative to the cam-sprocket. The solenoid directs oil to pressure points on either side of the four vanes; the vanes, and camshaft, turn in the direction of the oil flow. The more pressure, the more the phaser and camshaft turn. Like the previous phaser, the vane phaser turns the Vortec 4200’s camshaft a maximum 24 degrees relative to the sprocket.

The vane phaser is a much simpler device than the spline-piston phaser, with fewer parts. The vane wheel is made of extruded aluminum; it requires less machining and it’s less expensive to manufacture. Moreover, the vane phaser is more robust. It’s validated to ten years or 150,000 miles of operation. It is less sensitive to disruption from excessive debris in the oil.

Most important, the vane phaser performs more quickly and efficiently than the spline-piston phaser. Because it generates less friction, in turns the camshaft faster—in some conditions, as when the engine is warm and operating at low rpm, nearly four times faster. This improved response time will be transparent to the driver, but it improves the Vortec 4200’s overall efficiency and reduces compromises when balancing performance, drivability, fuel efficiency and emissions reduction. More precise control gives engineers more options in calibrating the cam phaser to maximize its benefits.

RETURNLESS FUEL INJECTION
All Vortec 4200s are equipped with a new "returnless" fuel injection system that eliminates fuel return lines between the engine and the gasoline tank. The new fuel system is also known as a demand system.

Before model year 2005, the Vortec 4200’s Sequential Fuel Injection (SFI) used a return line to manage fuel pressure by bleeding off excess fuel at the fuel rail and returning the excess to the fuel tank. The new system eliminates the return lines and moves the fuel-pressure regulator from the fuel rail on the engine to the fuel tank. But because the returnless system delivers only the amount of fuel needed by the injectors, and returns no fuel to the fuel tank, it eliminates heat transfer from the engine to the fuel tank. This reduces the amount of vapor generated in the tank, and captured by the evaporative emissions control system, or Onboard Refueling Vapor Recovery (ORVR).

In concert with improved intake manifold and throttle body gaskets (below), returnless fuel injection allows the Vortec 4200 to meet near-zero evaporative emissions standards mandated by the Environmental Protection Agency and California Air Resources Board for implementation in 2007.

IMPROVED COMPRESSION RINGS
The Vortec 4200's second piston ring has been redesigned. This new, improved Napier-type compression ring increases in thickness from 1.2 to 1.5 mm, and it has a step in its edge. The new compression ring is more durable and ensures consistent performance over the engine's life. It also improves oil consumption at higher mileage.

IMPROVED INTAKE MANIFOLD AND THROTTLE BODY GASKETS
The Vortec 4200 has new intake manifold sealing gaskets manufactured from a fluorocarbon material.. They are common with those used on the Vortec 3500 and Vortec 2800 inline engine, increasing assembly plant efficiency.

IMPROVED ORVR PURGE VALVE
Improvements to the Vortec 4200’s evaporative emissions system (ORVR) include a new purge valve. The purge valve empties the collection canister into the engine’s intake stream. The new valve also operates more quietly.

VENTED STARTER SOLENOID
The Vortec 4200 is fitted with a new vented starter solenoid. The solenoid case has a micromesh-covered vent that protects the solenoid from debris particles but prevents moisture buildup. When the engine is warm, any moisture on the solenoid evaporates through the vent.

IMPROVED THROTTLE MAPPING
The Vortec 4200’s Electronic Throttle Control (ETC) system is programmed with a new throttle progression intended to deliver more immediate engine response at part throttle.

The Vortec 4200 was one of the first truck engines with electronic “drive-by-wire” throttle. There is no mechanical link between the accelerator pedal and the throttle. A potentiometer at the pedal measures pedal angle and sends a signal to the Powertrain Control Module (PCM); the PCM – via the Throttle Actuator Control (TAC) module – then directs an electric motor to open the throttle at the appropriate rate and angle. Besides the accelerator pedal’s angle, the PCM measures other data, including the transmission’s shift patterns and traction at the drive wheels, in determining how far to open the throttle.

The refinements in the throttle mapping focus on part-throttle application. At full throttle the Vortec 4200’s performance does not change. Yet at part throttle, the response is more immediate to the driver. With a 25-percent application of the gas pedal, for example, the throttle might open 10 percent farther than it did with the previous map, and the vehicle will accelerate more quickly.

NVH ENHANCEMENTS
The Vortec 4200 gets several subtle improvements that make one of the smoothest, quietest six-cylinder truck engines in production even quieter. These include a new, denser insulating pad on the engine side of the dashboard and thicker downpipe that reduces the transmission of exhaust noise. The stainless steel down pipe connects the exhaust manifold with the catalytic converter.

GF-4 ENGINE OIL
All Vortec 4200s will be shipped to the customers with new engine oil that reduces engine deposits, extends oil change intervals, improves fuel economy and improves the life of emissions control systems. GM Powertrain has taken a leading role in developing and introducing the new oil, designated GF-4 (for “Gasoline Fueled, Standard 4’’) by the American Petroleum Institute.

This new oil improves fuel economy by lowering engine friction. It uses an ash-free anti-oxidant that prolongs the life of the emissions control system and it also resists oil breakdown caused by high-temperature oxidation. 5W30 oil is recommended for low friction and good cold-weather starts.


OVERVIEW
Start with a fundamentally sound design philosophy; add the best technology available, exclusive durability-enhancing features and a segment-leading balance of performance and efficiency. Then start re-examining everything immediately after a successful launch.

Rave reviews in virtually every automotive media outlet, and awards, including three consecutive appearances on Ward's Auto World's 10 Best Engines list and a key role in earning the GMC Envoy Motor Trend ‘s 2002 SUV of the Year.

The Vortec 4200 4.2L I6 (LL8) was introduced in the 2002 GM mid-size SUVs, including the Chevrolet Trailblazer and GMC Envoy, and was the first inline six-cylinder engine in GM Powertrain’s lineup in nearly 20 years. While the industry largely had turned away from the inline six, GM recognized that, given careful design and development, the inherent advantages of inline six-cylinder architecture were perfect for the new millennium. Yet with the technical sophistication of premium passenger car engines and the power of competitors’ V8s, the Vortec 4200 is no ordinary line six. Its flexible architecture builds the foundation for a range of inline engines, maximizing the return on corporate investment while exceeding customers’ performance expectations.

An exceptionally light, rigid engine block and cylinder head combination, cast with the GM's patented lost foam process, provide the foundation for the Vortec 4200’s success. All-aluminum construction means less weight than conventional cast-iron truck engines, and less weight means improved fuel economy. The bottom end of the engine derives strength through many features, starting with a bearing beam, or ladder, that connects the seven main bearing caps to further stiffen the engine’s structure. The oil pan bolts to the transmission bell housing as well as the engine block, eliminating points of vibration and making the complete engine more like a single casting. The oil pan also gives “pan-axle” all-wheel-drive capability to trucks equipped with the Vortec 4200. A passage cast through the width of the oil pan allows a drive axle to pass through it rather than under it, allowing the engine to be placed lower in the vehicle for a more compact package that improves the vehicle’s handling dynamics and gives designers greater styling flexibility.

The Vortec 4200's feature list reads like those for premium luxury/performance car engines: dual-overhead cam cylinder head, four valves per cylinder, roller-follower valve actuation and exhaust-cam phasing; a 10:1 compression ratio that delivers the seemingly incompatible benefits of high compression and regular-grade fuel; Electronic Throttle Control (ETC); direct accessory mounting.

Moreover, the Vortec 4200 development team hasn’t rested on its laurels. During the three years since the engine’s launch, virtually every system and technology, from emissions control to engine management to sealing, has been examined and refined. In 2003, the Vortec 4200 was fitted with polymer coated pistons that reduce engine noise and enhance durability. The oil-pump was refined to limit noise; and the cam-chain tensioner was improved for quieter operation. For model year 2004, the Vortec 4200 was introduced in the all-new Buick Rainier and Isuzu Ascender. For ’05 it powers Saab’s first sport-utility vehicle.

Vehicle platform teams recognize the Vortec 4200’s strengths, yet its design advantages and premium features mean little if the finished product doesn’t deliver what customers demand. Customers demand low maintenance, and with Vortec 4200, oil changes are the only scheduled maintenance during the first 100,000 miles of operation, and even those are as stress-free as possible. GM’s Oil Life System (GMOLS) advises an oil change when it’s actually needed, based on real-world vehicle operation, rather than a predetermined mileage interval. The oil filter is easily accessible from underneath Vortec 4200-equipped vehicles and is mounted pointing straight down, reducing the potential for spilling oil during removal.

Most of all, customers demand performance, and the Vortec 4200 delivers more peak horsepower and comparable torque (275 hp, 275 lb-ft) to competitors’ larger-displacement V-8s and

VORTEC 4200 4.2L I-6 (LL8)
2006 model year summary
• Increased horsepower and torque outputs
• Higher 10.3:1 compression ratio
• Improved air flow
• Mass air flow sensor
• Improved A.I.R. system
• Improved ignition coils
• Piston rod squirters
Full descriptions of new or changed features
Increased horsepower and torque
The Vortec 4200, already noted for providing peak power and torque emulating that of
competitors’ larger-displacement V-8s, delivers 16 more horsepower for 2006. Its new
rating is 291 hp and 277 lb.-ft. of torque. The power increase resulted from a higher
compression ratio and improved engine breathing. GM Powertrain’s participation in the
new SAE test certification procedure provides more accurate readings of in-vehicle
performance by using more exact measures of exhaust backpressure and also
accounting for loads put on the engine by the accessory drive.
Increased compression ratio
The Vortec 4200’s compression ratio increased to 10.3:1 as a result of changes to its
piston profile, which lowered the volume in the combustion chamber. Even with its higher
compression ratio, the engine continues to maximize fuel economy by allowing
customers to use regular or unleaded fuel.
Improved air flow
Improved performance also results from increased airflow into and through the engine. A
larger (38.7 mm) intake valve and larger (33.5 mm) exhaust valve allow more air to flow through, and the camshaft also provides more lift to allow the valves to stay open longer.
Mass air flow sensor
A mass air flow system helps reduce emissions, allowing the Vortec 4200 to meet
California LEV II emissions requirements while also improving its fuel economy.
The mass air flow (MAF) sensor (replacing a previous speed density fuel control system)
more accurately measures air flow into the engine, eliminating variability in a number of
conditions including changes in altitude and temperature, and allows more precise fuel
and spark response.
The MAF is lightweight and has a modular design, using an integrated intake air
temperature sensor. The electronics, located in the center of the sensor’s flow tube, are
air cooled by the intake air. The output calibration is precisely programmed into the
module.
A.I.R. system
The Air Injection Reaction (A.I.R) System, which pumps air into the port of each cylinder
head, has also been upgraded to assist in reducing emissions. During the casting
process, the A.I.R. port is now cast right into the cylinder head for improved air flow.
Ignition coils
The ignition system uses more compact coils, which also provide better reliability/
durability and make better use of its energy. Their more compact size saves an entire
coil’s worth of weight. Enhanced durability has been proven from the coils’ use in other
Gen III engines.
Piston rod oil squirters
The piston, inside the cylinder bore of the engine block, transfers energy through the
connecting rod to the crankshaft. For improved durability and quietness the piston rod is
now drilled with a tiny (less than 1/8th mm) hole, which allows oil to be sprayed on the
cylinder wall, providing a cushioning layer on the sides of the piston which rides on the
film of oil.
The oil is originally pumped into the crankshaft, whose journals have cross-drilled holes.
As the crankshaft rotates, pumping oil through the journals, the oil is fed from the
journals through the piston rod bearing into the piston rod itself. Its open orifice then
allows the oil to be sprayed into the cylinder wall.
Overview
The award-winning Vortec 4200 4.2L I6 (LL8), which won rave reviews in virtually every
automotive media outlet when introduced in 2002 and awards, including three
consecutive appearances on Ward's Auto World's 10 Best Engines list, has continually
been refined to optimize value and performance.
During the five years since the engine’s launch, virtually every system and technology,
from emissions control to engine management to sealing, has been examined and
refined. In 2003, the Vortec 4200 was fitted with polymer-coated pistons that reduce
engine noise and enhance durability. The oil pump was refined to limit noise; and the
cam-chain tensioner was improved for quieter operation. For model year 2004, the
Vortec 4200 was introduced in the all-new Buick Rainier and Isuzu Ascender. In ’05 its
variable valve timing, or cam phasing, system was equipped with a new state-of-the-art
vane phaser. Along with previous GM midsize SUVs, ’05 also saw the Vortec 4200
introduced in the Saab’s first 9-7X SUV.
The Vortec 4200 originally debuted as the first inline six-cylinder engine in GM
Powertrain’s lineup in nearly 20 years. While the industry largely had turned away from
the inline six, GM recognized that, given careful design and development, the inherent
advantages of inline six-cylinder architecture were perfect for the new millennium. With
the technical sophistication of premium passenger car engines and the power of
competitors’ V-8s, the Vortec 4200 is no ordinary inline six. Its flexible architecture
provides the foundation for a range of inline engines, maximizing the return on corporate
investment while exceeding customers’ performance expectations.
An exceptionally light, rigid engine block and cylinder head combination, cast with the
GM's patented lost foam process, provide the foundation for the Vortec 4200’s success.
All-aluminum construction means less weight than conventional cast-iron truck engines,
and less weight means improved fuel economy. The bottom end of the engine derives strength through many features, starting with a bearing beam, or ladder, that connects
the seven main bearing caps to further stiffen the engine’s structure. The oil pan bolts to
the transmission bell housing as well as the engine block, eliminating points of vibration
and making the complete engine more like a single casting. The oil pan also gives “panaxle”
all-wheel drive capability to trucks equipped with the Vortec 4200. A passage cast
through the width of the oil pan allows a drive axle to pass through it rather than under it,
allowing the engine to be placed lower in the vehicle for a more compact package that
improves the vehicle’s handling dynamics and gives designers greater styling flexibility.
The Vortec 4200's feature list reads like those for premium luxury/performance car
engines: dual-overhead cam cylinder head, four valves per cylinder, roller-follower valve
actuation and exhaust-cam phasing; a 10.3:1 compression ratio that delivers the
seemingly incompatible benefits of high compression and regular-grade fuel; Electronic
Throttle Control (ETC); and direct accessory mounting.
Vehicle platform teams recognize the Vortec 4200’s strengths, yet its design advantages
and premium features mean little if the finished product doesn’t deliver what customers
demand, like low maintenance. With Vortec 4200, oil changes are the only scheduled
maintenance during the first 100,000 miles of operation, and even those are as stressfree
as possible. GM’s Oil Life System (GMOLS) advises an oil change when it’s actually
needed, based on real-world vehicle operation, rather than a predetermined mileage
interval. The oil filter is easily accessible from underneath Vortec 4200-equipped
vehicles and is mounted pointing straight down, reducing the potential for spilling oil
during removal.
Most of all, customers demand performance and economy. Along with delivering even
more peak horsepower and torque comparable to competitors’ larger-displacement V-8s,
the Vortec 4200 also has higher EPA mileage ratings (based on published figures
available in March 2005).
The Vortec 4200 is produced in Flint, Michigan.

I don't think there is any question the 4.2 is a great motor. The problem as stated at the beginning of this string is how to get it to run. Hemiman seens to have found out a way but we have to wait until the magazine comes out. I have a problem with that in that I am in Canada and the magazine is'nt available here. Oh well,patience.............

There is a Nova wagon using the Atlas 4200 that pushes 950hp @ 15 psi (80mm turbo). It runs low 9's - high 8's. The engine is controlled using BigStuff3.

Atlas is what GM calls the family of engines which includes the 4200 as used in Trailblazers and the 4 and 5 cylinder versions used in the Colorado/Canyon twins.

Any updates? I'm really interested in this swap... Any feedback is welcome & hoped for!

How about a source list?

What is the bore center spacing of the 4200? Is this dimension similar to any other GM motor(other than the 3.5 or the 2.8) ?

103mm according to the GM tech paper. Sounds a bit shorter than most Gen I, II and III engines.

Thanks:Greg for the help trying to find a bellhousing.
I called all over north america looking for a bellhousing for the 4200 so as to bolt up a manual trans to the engine,(no luck) any one on the forum have one for sale from the 4 or 5 cylinder engines please email me.
Thanks:LHP

LHP-
I'm attempting to communicate with a Powertrain guy right now on the same subject; My biggest concern is how 'adaptable' the 2.8/3.5 bell will be. I'd like to hang a 5spd (TKO) or 6 spd (T56). Maybe I'll have to see what else shares the same pattern as the MA5 (the 'new' Aisin 5spd used in the Solstice and I believe the Colorado and Canyons).

The search continues.

For anyone interested in this, Westers Garage says he can reflash the 2002-2003 PCMs, and should be able to do the 2004+ soon.

westers garage can flash program the computer to give you better milage, remove rev limiter better performance etc, but he still is not doing the ecm to run stand alone. I talked to him this morning and he said he hopes to be able to offer a stand alone system by the end of the year. This would allow rodders to do an engine swap.The big problem seems to be the passlock system controls the injectors. Solve this problem and we may be off and running.

Agreed- he can't yet make them stand alone, but there are a few people who have worked around it. I'm going to run a Gen VII DFI on mine. I'm going to take a crack at controlling the exhaust cam with the DFI's VTEC controller- we'll see.

We have a company here that tells me their ecm will run the engine, no problem. Pricy but no problem. The reason I want to go with the stock GM ecm is the car will be my wifes daily summer driver and I want reliability above all. I do not want to take the car on the road and have a computer problem I can't fix and neither can anyone else that dosen't have a laptop with whatever program is needed to check out the aftermarket ecm. Have you looked carefully at the 4.2? What do you plan to put it in?

I've been on that list & on DIYEFI for a long time; right now I'm going with the DFI in order to have several features that can't be programmed into the stock (or mod'd) PCM.

Yes- I've looked into it & have an engine / trans combo. There is already someone who has done the swap. GM itself even put the 3.5 into an old PU. I'll put the pics on my server & post them...

If one buys the engine / trans combo along with the Harness & ECM > is there a 'lock-out' device that blocks function ?

Do you mean that the PCM will be locked out because it's not in a Trailblazer or Envoy, etc? No- It can be 'tricked' or completely reflashed.

The jury is still out on that, my buddy that works at GM seems to think that the BCM (body comtrol module) is where the security system stuff is operated from, passlock/passkey whichever it is. He seems to think that if that isn't there, we only need to supply the PCM (powertrain control module, mounts to the engine)with voltage (on the correct pin of course) with a regular key switch and it will run. I was talking to Westers earlier last week, they reported that they could turn off certain codes in the PCM and remove the transmission codes (for manual or non-electronic transmissions). I might try wiring up my engine this week some time and see if it will start. -Chuck

we've managed to get the air meter to work, the flyby wire throttle and the starter to crank. The problem is the injectors. They use a switched ground through the passlock system. Get around that and we may have a running engine.

I'm new to the list, hi all.

I work for a body shop, so I was able to buy a wrecked 2004 envoy with 38k miles for $790. Man, does it pay to work where I do... The airbags didn't blow and are worth almost half of what i have into, so taht's cool. Anyway, onto the point.

I will be pulling the engine soon and will be attempting to get it running on some sort of fabricated rolling stand. Has anyone come up with a comprehensive list of what needs to happen to get this thing running? i have the whole car, so my plan thus far is to take everything out and start taking stuff off as i discover i dont need it. Also, is there any word on how stout the rear end is or how to tell what gearing it has?

one more thing, 10:1 is a bit stout for boost, what pistons did taht dude in the nova use? oddly enough, mine will be going into a 74 nova that i intend to be a road racer.

one more thing, 10:1 is a bit stout for boost, what pistons did taht dude in the nova use? oddly enough, mine will be going into a 74 nova that i intend to be a road racer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Street Road Racer or Sanctioned Road Racer > ?

If this is your Street car > run a single Turbo with 8lbs. Boost & Premium Fuel.

The high Static compression ration > which if had an Iron Cyl. Head would be 9.to1 since Alum. allows one more Comp Ratio Point > will give you snap out of corners and a bit more controllability in the snakes.

If you plan for a Turbo Blown Race engine, plan on Intercooler [a study to find an efficient one ] Ross or Venolia Turbo Pistons & Pins & Teflon Buttons > Forged Rods 2mm shorter than stock >
include oil squirter holes to spray cyl. bores and ones for the bottom of the pistons > zero gap ring pak > Coatings for pistons and all bearings surfaces > a Boost Controller etc. > .

Might want to switch to a 2005 MAF system too.

Personally, a Turbo from: Jaime@mjmturbos.com
with a nice Turbo header & 5 to 8lbs Boost on factory parts is the way to go.

I heard from a guy at Self Racing that he sleeved the block & used custom pistons (a call to Darton confirmed this). What bore size he went with, I'm not sure. The stocker is pretty small at 93mm, or 3.66". I'm going to use lower compression pistons & let the boost do the work.

Sorry- I don't have a list. I'm trying to piece together what I can from the guys who've done it.

I just got the theft deterrent schematics last night. It appears that there is class 2 serial communication between the BCM and the PCM. So the only thing holding us back from a "stand alone" setup is one wire to the body control module and it's associated 80 wires that go to various parts of the body. Unless Westers can program the BCM out of the equation, us swappers are going to have to have that to be able to run the engine with the factory PCM. We will also need the keyswitch and key out of whatever vehicle the engine comes out of since it's programmed to the BCM.

Man, you guys are quick at responding around here, thanks.

5-8lbs of boost on mostly stock stuff was exactly what i was hoping to hear. I've never really built anything to corner and the car will be my daily driver, so I'm not even sure what class I even intend to race in if at all.

I don't mind nobody having any sort of list, because that means I'm actually on a leading edge for once, hehe. I'll do what I can to help and not just suck info.

About the BCM stuff... I have access to the Snap-On ShopKey software, so let me know what I can do to help with that. Also, the friend that has that also sells something-tronix diagnostic equipment, so he has all the CM-reading stuff i could need. Is programming the PCM to not need the BCM a hacking sort of deal or a dealer+ level scantool issue? If its the latter, I've got it covered. What he doesn't carry around in his truck he can go use at wherever he sold it to.

Like I said, I want to help, but this is my first swap like this. I have a BS in CS but no hacking skills, fyi. Let me know what I can do

mogofosho... I'd suspect the programming to be a "hacking" sort of thing, if it can even be done. GM engineers put this particular bit of electronics in the Trailblazer so it wouldn't be stolen. If there were an easy way around the security system, it wouldn't be very secure . The two computers communicate with serial data (think scan tool on the OBD2 port, but a different protocol), so it's not like we can just hook that one wire up to +/- 12V and have it work, which is a bummer. There may be a way to make a module that sends the PCM the proper serial data for start up. We would need to know what it expects to receive that tells it to allow a start and run condition. Or if Westers is deep enough in the PCM coding, they may be able to "flick some switches" to allow it to work w/o the BCM. -Chuck

hmm... since I have the whole car, I think I'm going to drag the whole wiring harness out of it and see if I can get it going with everything intact. I dont really care if i have to find a place to put the BCM and all the extra wiring, as long as the thing runs. I even have teh ign sw, so I might be good to go for now. It's only going into my nova, so it might even be cool to just route the whole new wiring harness where it all goes (lights, etc) in it. I can then work on cleaning out the stuff I don't need. I would think that the more of the envoy I put in the nova, the better I am as far as the short term goal of getting it moving the car.

I've never done any reverse engineering, has anyone asked the guys on the diy-efi list? I'm a programmer, but those guys are way over my head a lot of the time. Maybe someone can suggest a way for me to monitor the BCM-PCM data line when/if I get it going to see what it sends?

Monitoring the BCM-PCM dataline I can't help with, other than telling you it's a yellow wire,pin 58 on C1 (the blue one) of the PCM harness connector. There's also serial data sent from the security module in the instrument cluster, the drivers door module, and the ignition lock. I'm trying to get a hold of the schematics for the data link communications connector and see where all this stuff goes. You will probably need all those "modules" plugged in with their corresponding wiring to get it to even start. You will also need the gas pedal assembly with it's "pedal postion sensor" to be able to operate the throttle. I'm hoping someone can crack the need for the BCM, since that would save a ton of wiring and sensors. -Chuck

Hi there, redirected here from recent Diy_Efi posting... Maybe I can help? maybe not, but here goes...
One of the things I've seen done is to get all of the proper inputs and handshaked signals ONCE, (so it starts) then set a DTC into the BCM (such as a B2945 for an open/short in the passlock sensor) As long as this DTC failed AFTER a succesful start, then the BCM will continue to send the fuel enable signal regardless of passlock sensor input. AND since this DTC is stored in non-volatile RAM in the BCM, tehnically you can even disconnect the battery and the DTC will STILL be present - keeping the engine starting! Of course you will need to wire in the BCM with the minimum of wiring (B+, GND, passlock sensor the of course Class 2 data spliced to PCM) THEN using the orig ign key cylinder (even just the whole TrailBlazer column sitting on the seats) jumpered temporarily to the correct circuits, get it to start, disconnnect the passlock sensor creating the open (setting the DTC B2945) and from then on the BCM will always send the fuel enable signal.

This all assumes the original ECM/PCM AND BCM is available of course, otherwise you will need to perform a Theft Deterrant relearn using a TECH2 and TIS (not neccessarily from a dealership, but very likely as few shops have service programming capability)You will also require a valid VIN from one of the TrailBlazer/Envoys.
PLEASE NOTE- This TD RELEARN will likely NOT be required if the BCM and ECM/PCM were taken from the exact same vehicle.

There MAY be one other solution with respect to providing the Passlock sensor input itself.(but this would STILL require a BCM be wired in) If you try reasearching some of the remote start systems out there- as the Passlock sensor is really just a pair or precise resistors, those resistors (and values) are often part of an remote start installation as it allows the vehicle to start/run without the keys in the ignition. So those details are "out there" however my own personal experience in these aftermarket remote start systems is quite limited.

Good Luck and hope this helps your efforts
Regards
WopOnTour

hehe, looks like between the two of you, my question has been answered. I can certainly deal with just having the BCM and not all of the supporting wiring and modules. I haven't checked, but i think my envoy has the adjustable pedals, so I would probably want them in the nova anyway.

As an update to what I have done, yesterday I got the front end all pulled away from the engine in preparation to get it started. I then discovered that the car thinks it is still in drive. Not surprising, but it wasn't the shifter. Since I didn't know where the switch was, I opted to pull the shifter assy out first but it looks like the switch is on the tranny. Either that or there is something wrong with the switch on the shifter. I'll look at that today. After reading the above post, I think I'll get it all running in the car and then have my diagnostic buddy set the code you suggest.

I wonder if it's possible to program the DTC into the BCM instead of hooking everything up and tripping the code. It sure would be nice not to have to buy the BCM and corresponding hardware to wire it up once and then remove what's not needed once the code is set.
WopOnTour... do you know if anyone has rewritten or changed the code in the PCM to "not look" for the BCM "permission to start", or just delete BCM input altogether? That would be the best solution for us swappers wanting a stand alone configuration. -Chuck

"Westers Garage:
May be able to use the ECM from a 3800 Camaro or Firebird to run the IFI and Ignition. But not the cam phasing. They are also triing to hack the stock 4200 ECM to get my engine to run.

http://westers_garage.eidnet.org/scprice.htm

Dave Kelton (Dr. K.)
Has access to software & may be able to crack the stock ECM. I sent him my VIN and he's working on it now.

256-543-7165

Squire Inc:
They can clean up your harness and defeat the VATS.

479-243-9115

Speartech:
John Spears has a lot of experience with GM EFI including the 4200. His shop did some programing work on the 4200 for GM and he had them running on a test stand with the stock computer! (see photo's on his website). However, GM took all the stuff back when the project was completed. Maybe if enough of us ask, he'll do some work writing a program so our 4200s can run stand-alone.

http://www.speartech.com"


Try these again, as they might have made some progress ?

milnersXcoupe... I was just re-reading the first 2 pages of this thread and thinking the same thing. Decided to send off a few e-mails to check on this for progress. I received an e-mail response from Lyndon at Westers. He said by mid november they hope to be able to release programming for the factory PCM to eliminate the BCM, ABS, EBCM, etc. no passkey involved. So we just have to be patient a little longer. I'm excited. -Chuck

got the envoy to turn over today, but not until after i physically turned the crank with a ratchet. seems it was locked somehow. anyway, after i did taht, some stuff buzzed and clicked under the hood and it would turn over. unfortunately, the booster pack was then too dead to start it. guess I'll try again tomorrow.

an I6 vette is a bit wierd... so I dig it. my nova should be pretty light with a 'glass front clip and the ol' 4200 up front. any idea what kind of weight savings I'll see versus a SBC with a th350?

I've notice that the word 'envoy' contains 'n', 'o', 'v', and another 'v'(from another emblem on the car, which upsidedown is almost an 'a') that might have to become 'nova' on the car when its done.

did the guys at wester's say they would notify you when they were done with it?

I was told I was on the notify list. I'll be sure to post when I get notified. Now I have to get to work getting stuff in order so I can start this thing. Have to fab a fuel tank, get a pump and run lines, pedal position sensor, ALDL port and wiring. Just hope I'm not outta money when it's ready. -Chuck

I'm having some trouble getting the envoy to start. It was a rollover, so I figured part of the cranking problem might be oil in the cylinders. so, I pulled all the plugs out and cranked it over a few times. wow, it coated much of the front end with oil. so, I figure all is well and I reassemble it. Upon doing so, the same thing happens. it turns over for a while and then stops. it is very difficult to turn over with a ratchet at this point. I have to say, I'm a little worried that something seriously bad has happened... any ideas?

ataac_flat04 - I bet I am, but I sure hope I'm not still working on getting this thing running by the time they finish that I'm not exactly patient

mogofosho... you probably still have some oil left in the cylinders. I'd pull the plugs again and keep cranking for quite a while. Might squirt some solvent down each cylinder to thin the oil a bit to help evacuate it from the chamber. Or you could try vacuuming it out. -Chuck

looks like i killed the starter trying to start it with oil in it. I work for a body shop, so my cost on that from GM is $220, but there is also a place in town here that rebuilds them. It may very well be worth my money to have them take a look at it. anyway, I'm hung up until I get that fixed.

I found out some important info about the bcm/pcm antitheft stuff. Apparently, there is indeed a serial connection between the two, but when the bcm thinks that it has been stolen all it does is kill the fuel pump. make the fuel pump go without the bcm and you're good.

Come late spring next year ( best estimate now) megasquirt 2 (MS2) with the addon router board will free us from the GM electronics.

The MS2 exists now, the router board will allow use to do coil on plug ignition and sequential fuel injector control, other features should allow control over the cam phasing.

Stay tuned, the router board development is well underway.

I'm thinking about making up individual throttle systems for the chev/GM inline 6 4200,
but it would also apply to the 4 and 5 cyl inline engines from the GM trucks.
Any feed back would be great.
This is directed towards the hotrod market.
LHP

LHP... what do you have in mind on the ITB's? That sure would look cool hanging off the side of the engine. Retrofitting 3 pair of side draft webers, or using 6 individual throttles from something newer? Wonder how hard it would be to make it operate with the factory electronic controlled throttle. -Chuck

The throttle system that I'm thinking about would be 6 individual throttles of 54 m/m per port, as the ports on the 6/4200cc vortec are big, around 53m/m in crossectional area.
To put webers on the engine and retain the stock alternator would be difficult as it(the alternator)is right in the way of port #1, if you come straight out from the head.
With the injection throttles, I can turn the manifold ports up a bit and avoid the alternator, also it "looks cool" with the throttles pointing a little down hill into the engine.
The webers would also have to be mounted as close to horizontal as possible, because of the floats etc.
webers have 90m/m centers and this would make the manifold for the webers spread out to the ports, not straight and slight down draft like the injection system would be
The throttles I'm thinking about, would not work with the stock ECU, we will probably go with the Big stuff3 ECU and then can do anything we want with the engine as it's going into a hotrod anyway.

The 4/2800cc and 5/3500cc cylinder engines have the same basic manifold patterns so this manifold will fit these engines as well

Any feed back would be great,
Thanks:LHP

LHP... I wasn't meaning to hook up fuel to the Webers, just using them as a throttle body. If they won't work that's fine, just throwing out the idea. -Chuck

Idependent runner/throttle blade will only work if there is a plenum connecting all the runners together otherwise there is no common source to pick up the absolute manifold pressure from if you are plannning on using a speed-density EFI system. The other alternative is to common the IR throttle bodies into a common sealed airbox and run a mass airflow sensor into the EFI controller.

This is the one area where EFI is not as flexible as carbs. If you choose EFI then functionality has to take presedence over looks. It all depends what you want - looks or drivability.

With the basic design of an inline 6 cyl,
it's hard to make a manifold that feeds all ports very well.
So for all out performance gains,
the individual throttle setup is the way to go.
Look at Igor's 6 cyl, 2.9" throttles per port.
If you want to just drive around, then you run lesser manifolds with lower power potential.

And if you plenumize the runners so as to run a maf sensor, you are limiting total performance of the engine as the cylinders/airflow is now very confused within the plenum, just look at the firing order of the average 6, the cylinders will be fighting each other for air within the plenum.

As for using speed density, that's the way to go with the system that I'm designing.To use a map sensor with ITB's is a waste of time, just opening the throttles a little bit will lose vacuum fast, but this is why they(ITB's)can make big power, less restrictions to power output.

You will want to source vacuum from each port(small lines) and group these together for power brake vacuum etc.

LHP

I am really curious to see how you are going to get a speed density system to work with ITB's as you point out there is little or no manifold pressure to work with.
Speed density by defitnition requires a good manifold pressure signal.

My guess is that the system is going to go full rich as soon as you tickle the throttle. This may be fine for a drag race application which may be what you have in mind. For street usage though its not ideal.

The only way that I can see a ITB system working is to run alpha-N, but this has some drawbacks.

I'd be interested in following your progress in getting this running.

Sorry my mistake.
It would be alpha-n.
The map sensor could still be used as an altimeter, so to speak,if wanted, with a correction scale for basic barometric change as long as it was in a stable spot such as a ram air scoop for the intake system along with the intake air temp sensor, could also be used with data collection to see if the scoop works/ram air etc.

either way the engine has to be mapped out on a dyno for correct A/F etc.
LHP www.haywardperformance.com

hey all, well i do own a 2002 Trailblazer and am in dire need of customising the engine. There are absolutely NO mods for this engine unless done customised, sooo with that in hand, earlier up on this page someone had noted about installing a turbo running 8lbs of boost, would this just be a direct bolt-on??

U have noo warranty on my car, and am using it as a daily driver so I would not want too many internals delt with as that would mean out of action for too long. I wanted to overbore the block, but couldnt find any piston heads to do so, so Ive decided to just turbo the beast.

Any ideas on how this could be done and what I would need to do this??

Thanks in advance!

'blazin-
i dont mean to come down too hard, but i dont think you have any idea what is involved with boring and/or stroking. you stated that you dont want it down too long because its a daily driver, but rebuilding the engine is likely to take it down for some time.

eh... turboing anything but a very common engine in a very common car is usually not a bolt-on deal. i am certain you could find a shop that would custom-build a turbo setup for your trailblazer, but that is also going to be a bit lengthy not to mention pricey.

my suggestion to satisfy both your power requirements as well as down-time and reliability issues would be to have somebody develop a bracket system to get a centrifugal supercharger setup for about the afore-recommended 8psi. im no pro at this, but thats my plan so far.

also, check out the chip jet has for it at
http://www.jetchip.com/products.asp?pid=18614&make=22&model=489#489

looks like they have a dyno sheet for an 03 with the stage 1:
http://www.jetchip.com/pdf/dyno/chevrolet/2003Envoy4.2L.pdf

it probably doesnt take boost into account and i dont know if jet could custom-build you one or not. check into it

anybody that knows anything care to add?

I have seen several pictures of the swap being done but I have one unanswered question, what is being done to control the cam phasing?
Does anyone have any information on this?
Or more information one the VVT? Is it a simple switch over at a particular rpm or load?

Thanks,
Mike

There is light at the end of the tunnel. I'm sending my Dyno-Cal ECU out to Westers Garage. Hopefully it won't be long before we have a stand alone flash for your ECU's.

Thanks for your patience.

Hemiman,are you telling us that we will be able to use just the engine PCM stand alone,without the need of the BCM ,factory ignition (key & switch)? In my application, I would like to eliminate the use of the automatic transmission, (going to a Colorado 5speed) and the use of the EV fan system, I plan to use a rad mounted electric fan because of space limitations.Between the Speartech harness strip & the Westers Garage flash is this basicly all we need for this engine transplant, besides all the hours & mechanical fabricating?

Thanks, Lumpy

That's the plan. I'm using an NV-4500 in my truck. And a standard fan clutch.

Pray that all of this comes together as planned.

If the vvt is a simple switch (like honda vtec) then it would be cake to control, but I have read that the 4200 has a 25 degree range of adjustment. Is this true? I am trying to dig up as much technical information on the vvt is I can get.

The VVT is not a simple switch. It's continuiosly variable. The ECM controls it through PWM. The actuation is done with oil pressure. It has its own map just like ignition timing and injection timing. The total timing is 28deg, although I've seen 25deg documented also.

Just for grins, I emailed GM Performance Parts and asked if there was any chance of a 4.2 crate motor with a standalone computer, much like the RamJet motors have.

Their reply was: " We have no plans to produce a 4.2l crate motor nor a L5".

That may not be totally true. I've been working with GM Goodwrench on this project for about 18 months now, and they've been VERY supportive. Can't give you any details on their actual support,but it has been VERY significant. All of this will be detailed in my article when it gets to the engine portion. Next issue of the magazine is going to feature brakes. However, I'm moving the engine article ahead of other mods now that the ECU log jam has been cleared. Should be in print by February. At this time you can by the 4.2 short block direct from GM & the head as a separte item.

Hemiman,

Unfortunately, I'll be in Ft. Sill OK when your article hits the shelves. Any chance you could e-mail a copy so the wife can print it out and send to me? (won't have internet access while in training).

What magazine are you talking about so that I may buy and issue?

I replied again with email notification this time.

What magazine will your article be printed in?

Wester's Garage is capable of all GM computor mods and the 4.2 is a fairly common install. Factory harness and a security re-learn.

Military Vehicles magazine

Zeke,

Sorry for the slow responce. As FTF noted, it's "Military Vehicles Magazine"

http://www.militaryvehiclesmagazine.com/

Hemiman

You can defeat the Passlock I and Passlock II anti-theft systems by using a DEI GM 555L Passlock Remote Start Interface (about $25 on ebay). You should be able to run the engine.


Here's their description:


THE 555L GENERAL MOTORS PASSLOCK INTERFACE MODULE IS USED WHEN INSTALLING REMOTE START PRODUCTS IN GM VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH PASSLOCK I AND PASSLOCK II ANTI-THEFT SYSTEMS. THE 555L PROVIDES EASY INTERFACING WHILE MAINTAINING THE INTEGRITY OF THE VEHICLE'S ANTI-THEFT SYSTEM. THE 555L INTERFACES WITH THE PASSLOCK SYSTEMS BY PROVIDING THE PROPER RESISTANCE CODE (R-CODE) AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME. THE 555L WILL ALSO PROVIDE, WHEN NECESSARY, A NEGATIVE SIGNAL TO THE BULB CHECK WIRE. THE 555L HAS NO EFFECT ON THE PASSLOCK SYSTEM WHEN THE REMOTE START IS NOT IN USE THE FACTORY PASSLOCK ANTI-THEFT SYSTEM WILL REMAIN FULLY FUNCTIONAL.

Bump!

What's the latest on this? Has anyone got the MS EFi working? Are there any free standing setups on the market?


_Tim

The MS boards that will allow coil on plug ignition are 6-8 months from being ready for general usage. Watch the www.msefi.com forums for progress on the "router" board. Its this board and the MS2 that will free us from the OEM electronics.

Hemiman-
Any updates? I couldn't download the article, or I just went right by it.

I had the oilpan finished by a local aluminum welder, - Just cut off the entire bottom and created the oil well on the back. finished in one day. Now waiting for the Computer.....

So has Westers made the "stand alone" PCM modifications available on exchange basis yet? I haven't called recently to check availability. -Chuck

Anymore info getting these engines to run with the stock fuel injection/ignition system? I'm looking into stuffing one of these into a pre-emissions regulated GM Midsize or Economy-size car.

Talked to Lyndon at Westers the other day. He has stand alone computers for the 4.2 but only if you are using a manual transmission. Still working on the automatic, maybe by the end of the month

Finally.... Hope Brian is offering group Buys.... Anybody else in?

some info on putting the 4.2 into a gm intermediate car. This engine was not really designed to fit in a vehicle with a front crossmember, well maybe into a early Nova. As you know pretty well a chevy engines have the oil pan sump at the rear. This engine requires a modified pan to put the sump in the rear. The oil pump is also at the front so you end up with a pickup line about 2' long. When making a new pickup line use the largest size tube you can. Do not use smaller tubing for any reason. This is all doable. The engine is within 1/2" of a 230, 250, 292 six but is quite a bit taller with the plastic box on top. Could be a hood clearance problem. Other than these minor things, it's just another engine swap. Ha!!!!!!!!!!

Andy, Do you know if Wester's Garage can do the harness strip or should I send it to Speartech? When you say "stand alone" you do mean NO Passkey or BCM?

westers has a stand alone ecm. No bcm, no passlock. In theory five wire hookup like others offer for the v8's. Currently he does not have the automatic operational but hopes to have it by the end of the month. I hasve been waiting for someone to do this for two years. There are more than a few people that will sell a computer to run the engine. Theirs don't run the automatic or the fly by wire throttle and if you have a problem with it, you had better have your laptop with you. Westers uses the facrory ecm andc you should be able to plug it into a gm diagnostic machine to see what is wrong with the engine. Speartech can do a harness for you. At this point I am not sure Westers will do it for you.

Anybody know wht the 5 wire hookup looks like? I have a complete schematics. I have the complete engine harness up to and Including the FuseBox - but the wires leading into the Dash are all Cut. I traced out the RUN, Start. But, it still is a bit confusing. Any help.

BTW I ordered My Westers Tune today - Standalone with 4L60E.......

I would assume Westers will tell you where to attach the wires to the computer. If he dosn't then when my buddy gets back from his holiday we can tell you. We have managed to get the engine to crank with the stock ecm and bcm. The wiring diagrams in the trailblazer shop manual have to be the worst I have ever seen

Thats what I thought about those diagrams. I could send it to speartech, but, if it is only a few wires - heck.

Will be mounting it into my 50 pickup in the next few weeks..... I'll send pics

what does it cost to get a setup from westers? is it a reprogram of an ecm you send in or do you buy it outright?

Long time no post,

Send your stock engine harness to SpearTech. They will trim it out and send instuctions on how to hook it up. Costs about $350, and well worth it. If I could post photo's here I'd show before and after. Just amazing, the difference.

My article on the engine should be published in the June issue of "Military Vehicle Magazine". Sorry it's taken so long, but we had to upgrade the entire truck to safely handle the 275hp offered by the 4200.

I tried Speartech - they replied that they had no time to do the 4200 harness. It would be great if you posted the Instructions they sent you - maybe we could retrace.

Westers is looking for about $500 exchange for the computer. My understanding is they can program it most any way you want.

I'll get my SpearTech instructions out this weekend and post them for you.

Got the Westers Rod tune in for my 4.2..... Still waiting for any help on the wiring..... Anybody???

Thanks

Got mine back too. Will be working on it this week hopefully. Let you know how it goes

hey everybody.
Does anybody have any place to get custom motor mounts?
I am putting this engine in my 87 Supra.
Yeah, I know.

It's alive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Today we got it to run. Let me tell you it is not easy. Westers dosen't give you any info on how to connect it. They do write out the passlock and it will run standalone.

motormounts, you make. I used the mounts that come with the engine and made adaptors to the frame

Driftwood- I replied to your other posts; here is what my 68 Firebird frame looks like after some surgery. The biggest pain is going to be the oil pan- we're trimming off all but the bottom 1.5" next to the flange & where the A/C bolts to the pan. I'm working with ARE to do a cast rear-sump pan that can be used wet or dry sump (so we can sell to some of the Comp Eliminator guys). The good thing- you don't need a deep pan as the block & caps are side-skirted & the crank is well above the block's pan flange.


Here's the engine installed with our side mounts. The mounts were real easy (I have templates), but it is tall. The oil fill cap adds 3/4" to the front. I'm going to use an aluminum cover from an 06 & swap the cap to the middle / back.

I have been contemplating this swap into my 63 chevy II. Your info has been very helpful and I'm looking forward to seeing more on this thread.

OHCFbird what transmission are you using in your 68?

I'm using the Trailblazer 4L60E. I'm also using an Accel Gen7 DFI, with a TCI transmission controller. I was originally going to build a 65 Chevy II around this motor, but the guy decided to keep the car.

Thanks for the reply. Since you seem to be one of the first to get this completed I have a few more questions. How much fab work did you have to do? Is it reliable? Total estimated cost? What would be the best year 4200 to swap. I thought I read somewhere on another thread that you boosted yours, true? Thanks again for the info..

Ooooo... Ah....

http://community.webshots.com/album/396401896FjXaBc?432

Greg

Looks like HP tuners just released an update for their VCM suite that allows the home user to tune the Inline engine family from GM. Go to http://www.hptuners.com/ for details. This solution is more my style than a mail order tune, since I plan on doing "non-standard" modifications to my engine. HTH's -Chuck

If you guys go to HPTuners click on FORUM then on VCM Suite "getting started", then on I6 SWAP.Here I asked a few questions that I'm sure many of you have been pondering. It seems my automatic to 5speed manual swap may have these guys puzzled.What I really found disturbing was that they recommended that I try Westers!
Has anyone investigated EFILIVE, I think they support a Tuner package for the 4200 I6 ???

Andy, COuld you Pass along the Wiring hints to make this thing run. Still having a few issues........

hello all - great info on the 4.2 I6 - couldn't find dimensions (LxWxH) anywhere. Does anyone have that info? I have a primo 325 E30 BMW w/ shot motor - this would be a perfect upgrade if I could get it in. Any help appreciated.

Chip

OHCFbird what wiring harness did you use?

I'm running a combination of an Accel 'universal loom' and the factory unit. I do custom harnesses, so this is no sweat.

cool. thanks.

Hey OHCFbird,

What have you done to address the issue of the Cam Phaser if you're running an aftermarket controller ? If the phaser is not used does it stay advanced or retarded. I seem to recall from some of my reading that there's about a 24 degree range in the unit. Will it "Stay put" if not used or do you have to do something to mechanically make it stay in one position. I don't think it would be good to have it "floating' even a few degrees uncontrolled.

I got bit by the 4200 bug myself and ditched my 292 project for now. I'll get back to that project later for another vehicle.

I'm not sure I'm following some of the earlier info so maybe you (or someone) can clarify for me:

Does Westers or anyone else have a modifeid ECM or aftermarket ECM that allows the use of the Cam Phaser ? It's one of the features of this motor that makes it such a powerhouse I'd hate to eliminate it unless I absolutly have to.

Thanks,

I'm going to run the cam locked using a custum gear. I'm not exactly sure if Westers has the stand-alone capability nailed yet; there is EFIlive and HPtuners out for the 4.2.

Well I'm glad to see all the intrest I stirred up. Due to starting a new company all my hotrod projects fell to the way side. I haven't even had time to check this board in over a year. The Chevelle I wanted to put the 4200 in still has the old turbocharged 250 in it and it has been sitting for 8-10 months. Keep up the good work guys. At the rate you are going by the time I get to finish this car it will be a straight swap with no engineering.

Hey guys-I am building a turbo 4200 for my '65 Nova. Someone was asking about the ability to use the cam phasing....here you go!!

http://www.autronic.com/page_files/sm4_kit.htm

This kit will do it all....a little more $$ but well worth it in my opinion. I can also give you a great contact for purchasing and tuning if interested. I will be getting my Autronic this winter. I hope this helps and I will help in anyway that I can, although I am learning more than teaching probably!

Greg

"I'm using the Trailblazer 4L60E. I'm also using an Accel Gen7 DFI, with a TCI transmission controller. I was originally going to build a 65 Chevy II around this motor, but the guy decided to keep the car"

I was wondering if you are going to run a lot of boost pressure for high torque & high HP numbers.
If you are,, I would not go w/a 4L60, they cannot take that much abuse.
Just my two cents :-)

1. I could use the PWM output of the Gen VII to run the cams, but that would require lots of extra tuning time- not objective #1 right now (tuning yes, just for cams- no). I'm trying to get a good turbo grind figured out first before i venture into making 5-6 cams on my own.

2. Hank- You don't think I'm running a stock 4L60E, do you? It has all the available upgrades you can get. Until i get the whole T56 adapted, or a Supra trans, it'll stay a 60E. The exact same trans I have has survived behind many 750rwhp cars, and one 1000hp GTO.

"2. Hank- You don't think I'm running a stock 4L60E, do you? It has all the available upgrades you can get. Until i get the whole T56 adapted, or a Supra trans, it'll stay a 60E. The exact same trans I have has survived behind many 750rwhp cars, and one 1000hp GTO."

If you go to the Sy/TY website (http://www.syty.net/forums/search.php?searchid=587476)you can see how the 700r4's cannot handle all the torque from boosted Syclones & Typhoons, there are switching to the 4l80E trans w/great results.
Alot of guys w/pretty much stock engines blow them up. Launching w/360-500 ft pounds on boosted launches.Even w/billet everything they still break them.
The guy that knows about 700's,4l60E's, 4l80-E's & so on is George Blake, seems pretty knowlegible.
Personally I am not a big fan of the gear spacing of the 700r4's/4l60-E's.
But it it works for you,, great.

what performance parts are made for these engines? Like new intake manifolds, headers?

http://www.selfracing.com/engines.htm

Well, doing research over on trailvoy.com, a stock TB 4200 will take 6-8 psi of boost stock. The only problem is the computer and tuning it. Im not that advanced, but from what I gather the engine uses a MAP setup, so that when boosted it cant allow for the extra pressure and cant supply enough fuel to meet the oncoming air.

Is there anyway to convert the engine to run on MAF instead? Wouldn't this be more boost friendly?

Heres a link with some good info, but the whole tuning issue is still very vague for me...

http://forums.trailvoy.com/showthread.php?t=5386

You do not need to switch over to MAF.
Sounds like they are experimenting???
Nice to see someone trying to do stuff, but I think they need more info before they blow-up that engine.
They should start off w/a better fuel pump, not just a KB boost-a-pump.
Other issues they need to look into also.

I asked Tom about his opinion, and it seem this engine would be better to start with than an older 292.

I could go stand alone as Tom has said using a commander efi setup, not sure how I would do timing and ignition, but it can be figured out.

my main concern is the DOHC. I think they are variable, and I'd have no way to control it. Honestly I'd like to just lock everything down, so that Im only controling ignition and fuel.

Whats yall thoughts?

cajundragger,,,,,, talk w/OHCFbird
he is installing one(a 4200) in his 68 Firebird?? w/a turbo.
I am sure he can give you good advise on parts needed/ EFI used & all that good info.

Goodluck!!

I agree w/milnersXcoupe x2

I was under the impression that the computer was still a trial thing, and that it wasnt set in stone that it was hacked. I emailed westers, I'll see what happens.


Im still confused about using a manual transmission..I dont want a NV-4500, I want more of a T5 or T56, some tighter shifting, maybe even a muncie 4 speed. What other transmissions are available?

What about transmission? I want to run a manual 5 speed, but the NV-4500 is too truck like, I want something firmer. If I use the 5 speed out of a 5 cylinder colorado, can I use the stock clutch and everything?

What comes w/the 4.2 engine a 4l60E?
That's a decent trans.
Sticks are kinda lousy w/a turbo.
Maybe you can switch to a 4l80e?

Using the Colorado\Canyon bellhousing, you can use the R154 5-speed out of the 87-92 Supra Turbo. Good gear ratio's and not truck like at all.

Greg

so would I use a supra clutch correct? How would this connect to the flywheel? Or would I need a custom flywheel?

Okay, I did some talking with my brother who is big into tacomas...a R150F I think it is comes in 6 cylinder tacomas and is pretty strong. He says I can get that trans real cheap so I think I will go with that.

Im thinking I get a clutch that matches the transmission and get a custom flywheel for the engine to accept a stick correct?
How will the clutch fork and stuff work with the other bellhousing? Or do I use a colorado clutch and fork and everything, and somehow the transmission will fit the colorado clutch?


and Hank, I love driving stick, and un fortunatly I drive a full size GMC as a DD, so I want a stick in my project for the fun factor...

cajundragger ,,,,,,,,,,,
I own a GMC Syclone & for every street race I have done, I have not lost, it's not the fastest ,but 0-60 almost nothing can beat it.
You just hold the brake down, let the boost come up & bammm! 1.71-1.84 60ft times. It would be really hard to launch a stick like that, w/a/stick it would actually run slower.
I am telling you, the fun factor is there w/a automatic & spanking everyone.
It's just so easy.
I would not have as much fun w/a stick trans & losing races.
Just my two cents.

I'd never do this truck to race it. It is solely for my driving pleasure, with that said I respect your opinion, but in my case I much rather have more control over what my truck is doing. Simple as that, if I loose 10 seconds in the quarter for going stick then so be it, I'll have a blast doing so.

That's cool, different strokes for different folks !!!!

along with the clutch question, isnt this engine a fly by wire setup? So I need the peddle assembly as well correct?

And if I can get a complete engine with the alt, I can use the alt to power the truck correct? Or do they cut the alt out the harness and I need one with a one wire hookup?

Cajun, you can use the Toyota R150F as long as its a 97 and later version. The earlier versions have a 6.5" input shaft which is too short to work in the Colorado bellhousing.

Greg

What clutch pack do I use? Colorado? Will the input shaft of the R150F work in the Colorado clutch?

Cajundragger, I haven't done this, but I keep hearing from folks that know how to do it. There are two ways you could go. If you use a stock 87-93 Jeep AX15 front bearing cover you can use the stock Jeep hydraulic throwout bearing. You can also use the stock Colorado\Canyon\Solstice AR% front bearing cover and use the stock GM hydraulic throwout bearing. All of this will fit the Toyota R150. You'll have to use a Toyota splined clutch disk.

Greg

makes sence to me...

So I think to make it easiest Im going to run the colorado/canyon clutch with a toyota disk.

What about a throttle body?

What about it ?

Do I get a peddle from the trailblazer too, or can it be converted to cable pull?

http://tinyurl.com/qhjwt

so I use the stock throttle body, thats what I needed to know. Im not trying to turbo the motor from the start, gotta have something to look forward to.

What flywheel do I use for a manual? I read somewhere in here theres a post with part numbers, but I did a search and found nothing. From what I read the stock one will not work, and one from a colorado canyon will not work either...


I dont see how Im going to loose boost during shifts if I have a blow off valve...because everytime I shift the BOV pops, pressure gets release, and when the pressure drops in the intake it closes again and the turbo will still be spool up and boost will be right back...

can a 2.8/3.5 flywheel be machined to fit the crank of the 4.2, and a starter from a 2.8/3.5 be used? Or is there a flywheel that will work? Everyone is being quiet about the flywheel so does that mean nobody knows or its underwraps?

I think those questions were answered in the earlier posts?
Have you read all the posts on this engine?

I read through this whole thread...there is a part number listed but its a dead end for me...I tried searching google and gmparts.com and some other website with no luck...

I found on a buick board that there is a flywheel for the v6 buicks that is 13.5 " across the ring gear and has 161 teeth. It can be had in aluminum as well, so maybe it will work?

http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/mmp/oldsmobile~bravada~flywheel~parts.html

check out the flywheel half way down....isnt that the one we need? It says 166 tooth so does that mean the bravada has a different starter?

Yes it has a different starter It mounts on the driver side of the block mid way up the block.

If you guys are looking for a manual flywheel to fit the 4200, go back to page 1 in this forum, scroll down to JERRY's message. He had a handfull of flywheels made from the original GM part number(which is no longer available)It bolts up to the 4200 & uses all the 5 cyl. clutch parts. I bought one & it looks A1!!! I'm also using the Colorado 5 speed trans. Does anyone make a better shifter for this trans(other than stock)?

OK, I e-mailed Jerry Weigt, the gent that posted the info about the export flywheel. This is the response he sent me (with pics too!).

"Greg: I received a 4.2 flywheel from GM’s beta-test program. I later found that this was an “export only, not available in the U.S. ” item. I had a machine shop make copies in billit steel. It uses the starter ring gear from the Chevy Colorado or GMC Canyon 4 or 5 cylinder with manual transmission. It uses the metric pressure plate from the 5 cylinder and is also drilled for an S.A.E. pressure plate.

If this would work for you, I’d be happy to provide one for the sum of $275 (plus freight and tax, if applicable). I’ve attached a front and back picture.

I would be happy to chat with you. You can contact me at (530) 795-0224 most evenings.

Jerry Weigt
weigts@sbcglobal.net"

Well, there you have it. A source for 4200 flywheels. I can't post pics so if anyone wants a pic, send me a PM.

Greg

Greg, I emailed him too and got the same thing, I think Im going to grab one. It says to use a starter gear from a colorado/canyon, but I thought the colorado/canyon had a different tooth starter though? Hm, I dunno.

would I need a special fuel pump since the TB motor is returnless? Or will a regular external EFI pump work?

Here is the AutoRotor Supercharger site:

http://tinyurl.com/gd3f8

-or-

http://www.opcon.se/index.asp?sPage=1&langID=1&cID=14

How many folks are in the process of doing a swap?

OHCFbird is.

I'm pretty jazzed on this idea. I like the idea of a nice modern day powerplant moving my 68 Camaro or even my 87 Firebird. This whole thread makes me wanna sink some cash into finding a 4200 and a manual trans rather than building a 350 again.

Try :

www.car-parts.com

they've a great selection of 4200 inline s :p available.

Wow, I see that. I knew there were alot of those trailblazers on the road, but wow. There's also alot of 5 speed canyon trans, but I'm guessing the 2.8 trans and the 3.5 versions are different.
Is there anymore news on engine management?
The dizzy and carbs set ups I've seen look cumbersome, but the EFI sounds hard to crack.
Running on MS&S or Carbs w/Megajolt light would be cool though. I think it'd look sharp and pull good numbers with ITBs. Since I'm not as tech minded to come up with my own system to run it I'll just have to keep my eyes on what happens here and elsewhere.

Yes there is:

1) megasquirt will run the injectors no problem,
2) I have finished designing the brackets and crank trigger wheel to mount the FORD EDIS-6 wasted spark system on the 4200 - this system is real easy to find in the boneyards it came on ford 3.8 and 4.0 V6's in ranger PU's and aerostar minivans. Megasquirt supports the EDIS system in its software so with a little wiring we now have a stand alone iginition system for this engine.

The only item that needs to be completed yet is an adapter block/plate to mount a non-drive by wire throttle valve onto the manifold. This block/plate would need to be made also.

Once I get the engine installed and running on with MS and the EDIS system I plan on getting the cam advance drive/feedback working - the engine will run without the cam adjustment hooked up, the torque curve will be a little different than factory thats all.

So we are free of the GM electronics.

In the last brazilian 4100 comes a crank trigger and ignition system which is very similar to the Ford EDIS one.
Wasn't it be suitable on that case?

It might well be, just can't get those parts in Canada.

I am swapping in to a '53 truck

Anybody running yet with a modified factory ECM ?
I hope I'm no more than a month away. Engine is in, coupled to a Tremec 6 spd and I have an ECM modified by Lyndon at Wester's Garage in Alberta. I've had to modify my own harness as well so I have my fingers crossed there also.
Stay Tuned!

What did you put it in and did you have to modify the oil pan to make it fit?

It's in a 59 Austin-Healey 100-6 ! I milled the bottom 2 1/2" off the pan, cut the "tunnel" out and plugged the holes and put sheet metal hinged baffles inside to control fore and aft slosh.

AW C'MON, TROUT!!!! YOU GOTTA SHOW PICTURES, MAN!!!

That may be the most beautiful british roadster of all time...WITH A 4.2 DOHC SIX IT'S GONNA SCREAM!!!

Photos, please.

I neglected to mention that the motor I'm replacing is a 250 chev I installed in 1969! That was .030 over, crane cam , 1.94-1.60 valves, ported, aluminum flywheel, GM electronic ignition, 4bbl, headers,and until 2004 hooked up to the Healey 4spd w/OD and then switched to athe 6spd.

PHOTOS GALDARNNIT!!!!!

QUIT TEASING ME YOU BEETCH!!!!

Very inerested in your swap. sent you a personal message. PICS PLEASE!!!!

okay, so heres the problem. I don't know how to move my pictures from the card reader in my scanner to this message board. If someone explains that to me, I'll get you some pics.

Anyone know how to get ahold of OHCFbird? I tried a PM and email through his profile on here and had no luck.

OK Trout, here's a thread.

http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?40,581696

Greg

just found this link on the hybridz forum thanks.I was wondering if Trout could let us know who made the adaptor and flywheel and what clutch he used? any help would be greatly appreciated.

Also, how about those headers? Nothing like that available in the US.

Those are the factory exhaust manifolds.

Hmm. all the other 4.2 exhaust manifolds that I have seen are 6 into 1.

I was wondering if we could find out the pn's for the front and rear manifolds?

Hmm. all the other 4.2 exhaust manifolds that I have seen are 6 into 1.

I was wondering if we could find out the pn's for the front and rear manifolds?

AThe manifolds are made from stock ones, contact Tom Langdon at Stovebolt Engine Co. I made the engine adapter from a piece of 3/8 in plate. It bolts to a chev bellhsg, the clutch is a centerforce that I had left from my 250in six and uses the internal hydraulic throwout with the T56. The flywheel came from Jerry Weigt. The pilot bearing and flywheel bolts are from a 5 cyl Colorado.

My question is does anyone have one of these runnig yet with a modified GM PCM ?

Not yet but I'm working on mine to go into a 64 Nova. Engine will be stock with auto trans. My plan is to reporgram the stock pcm to eliminate any unnecessary functions and modify the stock wiring harness to work.

An observation: Vortec 4200 is about the longest running topic in some time.Do you think the start of a new post might be in order just to shorten a search in the future?

Sure,start a new topic & go from there.
Like ECU's,fuel injectors, etc.
MBHD

Did you use the old sbc chevy style bell housing or the ls1 bell housing?

I'm not familiar with the north end of a southbound LS 1. The bellhousing I'm using came from the same 02 Firebird as the T56 and other than a missing bolt hole and maybe different sized dowel pins you can interchange any old Chevy bellhousing. The beauty of making the back of any motor the same pattern, flywheel starter dimensions as a Chev is that you can then buy an adapter to bolt it to about anything from a Model A to an F1 gearbox.

Cool I didn't know that the LS1 and the older chevy's backside were that simalar. You wouldn't be interested in making another adaptor plate would you? I would be very interested.

Not right now, first order of business is to get mine running on the street, maybe next winter. Just a hint, any time I make an adapter I make the first one from plywood if I can. If that looks like it will work then you get out the steel or aluminum.

Thanks for the tip..

I finally got my hands on a 4.2L. Sadly it wont be going in my truck. I went with a LS6/T56 combo. I know, a v thing.

But my Dad will be using the 4.2 in his '56 chevy truck with the stock 4L60 behind it. It will recieve a turbo eventually as well as a built block. I'll make a thread when it starts going down.

alright, good news. I went to the goodguys show in Columbus this past weekend and talked to a compnany named Howell who has already done a few 4.2L engines in boats with harness and computer tuning. They said soon the harness and computer will be a stocked part availible to everyone.

Im guessing it will be in the neighborhood of $700 because thats what the LS1 harness are.

Just a heads up.

Do you have contact infor for Howell's?

Howell Engine Developments, INC
Phone: 810-765-5100
Fax:810-765-1503
6201 Industrail Way
Marine city, Michigan 48039

http://www.howellefi.com/shop/customer/home.php

I just fired my trailblazer/healey for the first time. I think I got so excited I almost soiled myself. I first tried it yesterday on ether and then on gas spray for about 10 seconds. Tonight I filled the tank and connected the pump. Boy did that sound sweet and it was running off the PCM. The only part that wasn't working was the fuelp pump trigger so I jury rigged it off the ignition. I ran it for about a minute and then revved it up and shredded the serpentine belt and sheared off the tube to my oil pressure gauge. Oh well, back to the drawing board for the belt drive and if I have to I can run the fuel pump relay off the ignition and thru an oil pressure switch. Boy it sounded great!!!

GREAT NEWS!!!

Um, dude, where are the photos?

Pictures? How about Video, and sound maybe? Please

C'mon guys give me a break all this internet stuff is tough, I'm just trying to get my car going, in time.

I spoke with Lydon at Wester's Garage, he programed the PCM for me and he said he thought it was the first one he'd done that was running. I had the wiring reversed on the fuel pump relay and he helped me with that. I also talked with Tom Langdon at Stovebolt Eng. (he did the split manifolds) and he's going to see if he can modify a stock pan for me for more clearance. I've done one but it has some porosity and Tom has access to much more sophisticated welding equip and welder. If anyone else has a specific oil pan problem please post it and maybe we can get some done for others. I have to do a little redesign on the serpentine drive but I'm trying to have this on the street by mid august. If you need help I recommend Lyndon and Tom, find them on the net. More later this week.

Not exactly later this week, but.... Well I finally got the Trailblazer Healey on the road for a bit. Hold the RPMs down short shift it and it is strong and a joy to drive around town. It lugs without protest and is smooth. Rev it up and it goes like someone stuffed a rocket up your .... Wow! Right now I'm using an old set of 165-15 Michelins and a 3.55 open rear end since I don't have traction bars yet and I don't want to tear the rear end out of the car. Traction is non existent in first and not much better in second but it pulls like a train in the higher gears. I had to pull the trans out and take the McLeod spacer out. It set the trans back to far with the extra adapter plate so the hydraulic internal throw out extended to far and blew out all its fluid. I'm driving it without the trans tunnel cover on yet or the hood so I get a few looks. I am lowering the throttle body another 3/4 inch so it will clear the hood. I'll have that on this weekend and will put a few more miles on. I intend to take it to Detroit next wed, thurs, and fri for Woodward. If you're around I should be at the Hot Rod Magazine parth Thurs nite. More on this when I get back.
PS. I don't have a working Tach yet. I do have the Engine Speed Sensor wire from the PCM but I'm not sure if their is a way to use it to power my existing tach which is a SW unit that I was getting a signal for from the Tach terminal of a non computer GM HEI. Anyone got any suggestions? Thanks

Doesn't MSD stuff cover it?

that is exciting to hear. did you have the ecm reprogrammed? tom

I have used the tach wire from a PCM before on other swaps (Quad 4 (twice)and Ford 4.0 SOHC V6). It worked fine for me. I wouldn't expect GM to go wierd all of a sudden, but you never know till you try.

Thanks guys, I found a part from MSD for distributorless engines for about $40. I'll have that on Monday so that should solve the Tach issue. Yes you have to get the PCM reprogrammed to get rid of the passlock antitheft circuitry. A warning. I had an extra spacer (scallop ring from McLeod) as well as my adapter plate and the trans was back just a hair to far. Step on the clutch and the internal throuout traveled to far and came apart. Everything is now back together with one less spacer and works great. Also took it to the muffler shop and had 1.5" OD tailpipes installed that look like stock Healey except the're on the wrong side. Now it just sounds like a very healthy Healey!

This week we fired the Vortec 4.2 race engine for the Black Opel team in prep for Bonneville using megasquirt and Ford EDIS for the ignition system. Once we sorted out the firing order the engine fired on the second try.
Within 10 min's we had the idle fuel dialed in.
A day later we headed to the dyno and got the mid range dialed in enough to do a full pull. We got 1 full pull in before mechanical gremlins came to pay a visit.

We'll be ready for the Oct. meet.

Efi-diy

Was it that difficult to solve the firing order issue? I've been thinking about the EDIS system for a while but never had a chance to get in touch with. Which crank trigger are you using? Custom made or stock trail blazer one?

Not really once we knew the firing order for the donor engine. They are using an EDIS 36-1 trigger wheel from a ford escort and a custom adapter bracket and mount in conjuntion with the dry sump oil pump drive.

With the EDIS coil pack input connector on the right side of the coil pack the correct cyl. pairing is:

rear

1,6 connector
3,4
2,5

front

Once the initial timing check is done with a timing light and set for 10 deg BTDC - the rest of the timing adjustments are done in the tuning software. The car owner is new to EFI and after checking several advance points with the timing light against what the laptop was saying - he put the timing light away for good....

The one item that needs to be checked if you get no spark then try revresing the VR sensor wires - even if the wire colours are mis-matched. This bit us for a while.

Not really once we knew the firing order for the donor engine. They are using an EDIS 36-1 trigger wheel from a ford escort and a custom adapter bracket and mount in conjuntion with the dry sump oil pump drive.

With the EDIS coil pack input connector on the right side of the coil pack the correct cyl. pairing is:

rear

1,6 connector
3,4
2,5

front

Once the initial timing check is done with a timing light and set for 10 deg BTDC - the rest of the timing adjustments are done in the tuning software. The car owner is new to EFI and after checking several advance points with the timing light against what the laptop was saying - he put the timing light away for good....

The one item that needs to be checked if you get no spark then try revresing the VR sensor wires - even if the wire colours are mis-matched. This bit us for a while.

I've read somewhere that interface between EDIS and MS is very simple with only one go-return signal. Is it that simple? Does MS retard timing when using a charger boost?

Yes, the interface is just 3 wires: PIP input to MS << tells MS when a trigger event occured, SAW output from MS to the EDIS <<< tells the EDIS system to adjust the timing & a gnd. wire. You program the advance curve to suit your application, so yes under boost you can retard the timing.

From the Grassroots Motorsports Board:

http://www.hotrodparts.com/rollsbentleyparts/6_cyl_gm_4_2l.htm



Greg

Now that's interesting.

I've been reading about the 4200 with interest with an eye towards putting one into a 60-63 Ranchero or Locost. Then the idea struck me. Could one keep the Trailblazer awd configuration and put it into something like the Ranchero? It'd undoubtedly require me to extend the current limits of my skill set, but potentially be a heck of an end result. What major obstacles should I expect to encounter beyond the obvious one of making a RWD vehicle drive the front wheels?

You would want the whole truck it came out of. The easiest way I can think of making a 2X4 into a 4X4 would be to graft the Ranchero onto the chassis the engine comes with. Second easiest way would be to graft all the stuff for the 4X4 drive train (and suspension) onto the Ranchero. It would be difficult to reinforce the Ranchero enough that it would be what I would want to call reliable. Lotsa work either way, but I guess it all depends on what you are after. You could have a 'redneck' Ranchero, or you could lower it and have a rally Ranchero. You would definitely be the only one in the parking lot either way.

Oct./07 update

Last weekend the megasquirt designers anounced that a new megasquirt module will be available before the end of the year that will support coil on plug ignition and sequential fuel injection. So a non-GM Tunable ECM system will be available to run this motor and should use all the factory sensors. Not announced yet is cam phaser control. The one item that I dought will ever happen is drive by wire so the throttle body will need to be swapped out for a earlier LS1 cable type.

so how is it running? had it on the road yet? tom

YEAH! The old truck is running... the old truck in running!

After struggling for 2 1/2 weeks with the 4L60E its finally shifting 1,2,3,4! I put about 6 miles on it tonight - a world of difference from the 292, smooth torquey. The lokar shifter is not working correctly so to test drive it I left the transmission floor pan off and bitched a piece of ready rod together as a shfiter... need 1st gear use my toe to push the shift lever forward - it'll get fixed very soon.. We're just running out of weather here - the leaves are down off the trees and snow is about 2-3 weeks out.... so I really want to drive it.

Congratulations! I'm very excited that you're doing this. A state-of-the-art American I-6 (with megasquirt) is a wonderful thing and fertile ground for many swaps.

Do you expect to dyno it? I'd be very interested in seeing the power curves with MS versus the factory programming. Particularly, the effects of locking out the variable valve timing.

Since my last post on August 8 I've put about 6-700 miles on my 4.2 Healey conversion. 400 mile trip to Stowe Vt for British Invasion car show averaged 30 MPG with 32 for one tankful. With stock PCM and all contols (Cam) it pulls like a tractor at any speed. I have a 6 spd trans but it would be just as quick with a 3 spd with all that torque. I have to put some upper torque arms on the rear axle this winter and then I'll put some bigger tires on it. It got a lot of whatzat questions from people trying to aguess what the motor was. All in all I'm extremely happy with the conversion

I had my vortec powered '51 GMC on the dyno over this week end and I learned an important lesson - these new motors DON'T like a lot of advance - on 92 octane at WOT 22 degs is all it wants or needs. I thought I had a safe tune up in with 32 deg total but no it rattled real bad.

At the end of the session we had a safe tune up - not fully optimized for power but still made about 210 at the rear wheels. This was in direct drive with the convertor locked up going through a 9" diff. so a 20% loss is not unreasonable. About 250 HP at the crank at 2300' ASL. The air was decent - 95 to 96 KPa.

With just a conical type air filter installed it sounds like Thor's vacumm cleaner thats ****ed off... the thing just roars and arond 3800 rpm the pitch change so I think the oil pressure alone is moving the exhaust cam around.

Once I have the video of the last dyno run I'll post a link..

ACH57-
You couldn't get ahold of me because I was in Iraq for 9 months & couldn't log on. Most forums & whatnot are Gov't internet no-no's, so I was bumming.

Anyway- Good to see the 'forever thread' is still going strong!

Started my 50 Chev Pickup - 4.2 up this evening (on Spray). I have a Westers Tuned ECM. My problem is still with the Fuel - doesn't seem to be pumping properly. I modified a tank to use the In-Tank Pump from my donor, and I hear it come on when I turn the Key. Guess I'll have to check if it is pumping at all.... Does anybody know what to do with the two extra lines (Vacuum / Air) that go down next to the Fuel line?

Aaron

I checked plenty of fuel on the rail (I smell like gas now). I checked the wiring - seems to be ok - as I can start it on spray. Did I miss a wire?

Do you have a pressure gage installed? Its possible to have volume but low pressure.

Does the fuel rail have a return line? If not do you have an air lock in the rail?

Worst case - pull the rail and injectors as an assembly then set up 6 containers and set the injectors into the containers. With the coil packs diconnected - crank the engine with the pump enabled. After 20 rev's of the crank or so check the fuel level in containers. The levels should be very close. Watch the spray pattern for low pressure (dribbiling fuel).

I hope nobody minds me summarizing, but I want to make sure I got everything out of this thread:
4.2 out of boneyard
Flywheel from Jerry
Clutch/Pressure plate/Tranny out of Colorado
Either: EDIS and MS or GM electronics reflashed
Oil pan relocation
Trailblazer pedal OR cable TB

Is that right?
Jeez it sounds like a lot of work.

i just got my 4200 swap running last saturday

its in a 98 jeep wrangler stock pcm,hptuners i have the stock speedometer (trailblazer) wired up and working

I haven't seen this on here yet, 4200 in a Nova Wagon. video.aol.com/video-detail/nova-wagon-4200-vortec-inline-6-turbo/4204860020 I hope I did that right , if not I know it works if you cut and paste. Need to get grandson to show me how to do this.

"Thanks for serving"

Glad to see you home safely. And thanks for your service and all military men and women serving the globe. You should be proud!

OHCFbird

Glad you're home (in one piece too, I hope).

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/nova-wagon-4200-vortec-inline-6-turbo/4204860020
No cut & pasteting req'd

MBHD

30 pages, a handful of people doing the conversion and only two pix (firebird) and one video (nova wagon), how bout more inspirational pictures and/or videos?

Found some visual video motivation on youtube

says 4200 vortec I6 in a 50 chevy, gets the win light.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPJ6vBhHexg

http://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p9090076fo8.jpg

Cool, Any pictures of the rest of the truck?

if anybody wants to check out my 4200 swap i have pictures up now

jeep 4200 vortec swap

Scotte

Who made the oil filter adapter on the block .. got a part number?

Scotte

Nice install...sucker looks like its supposed to be there.

Should be fun.

transdapt 1420 is the 90 deg adapter i used but i had to carve away a couple of ounces of BLOCK so it would spin on

transdapt 1020 is the straight down adapter and that on looks like it would go on w/ no modifications but i didn't have the room for it

i used hp tuners to take the theft function out of the computer and yes the factory speedo cluster completly works

4200 fuel mileage ..

Just came back from the can-west inliners bbq.. 8 1/2 hours drive one way

The drive home involves climbing some 4000' elevation changes twice. The 4200 got 21-22 MPG going up these mountains and down.. . averaged over 270 mile used just over 13 US Gal. (51 liters).

So on a flat highway I'd guess it would be 24-25 MPG which is a huge increase over the 13 MPG with the previous 292.

The engine is in a 51 GMC with a 4L60E going into a 9" with 3.50 gears and 275/60R15 tires. In OD locked up about 2100 rpm at 70 mph.

Just read this entire thread. Not interested in swapping my 250 at this point but down the road....

That said, I'm NOT interested in the computer control. I saw one photo (Howell??) of an engine with carbs and what appeared to be a distributor running of a gear/cog belt from the front engine pulley.

Has anyone done anything like this? The intake manifold is easy. variable cam timing and how to defeat it?

efi,
tell us about the power it has in stock form. what rpms do you take it to? will it spin the tires from a stop. inquiring minds want to know. you know there is alot more people than us that want to hear.

i am impressed with the mileage. my engine is geared simular. 700r4/ 3.55 and 355/60-15 tires. almost the same rpms. i see around 18 at that 70 mph mark. tom

Variable cam timing ... just leave it disconnected or replace the exhaust cam sprocket with an adjustable one from Bates engineering.

As far as dist on a cog belt - well personally I think your asking for a world of hurt with timing scatter. The electronics needed to drive the stock COP ignition is pretty simple.

That said you could consult with Jerry W. for a dist. solution that works.

Tom,

The engine loves to rev. I can buzz this to 6200 RPM easy with the stock motor. The mid range is quite strong and it'll smoke'm easy with a bit of converter load. With a manual it would be crazy. The 1-2 shift burns the hides for 20', the 2-3 a good 3-4'

It runs out of 2nd gear at 75 mph....! I haven't found enough road to run out of 3rd....

I bet in a more aerodynamic body even your EC it would get 26-28 MPG. The '51 is a big brick... Bet in OEM stock form the truck would have a hard time going faster than 80 MPH.
The motor likes to turn 2600 to 2800 on the highway, just one problem this is 75 to 80 mph - way over the local limit. So I think 3.7 or 3.9 gears would be better than the 3.5's that i currently have. I suspect that it will get better mileage with more gear as at 2000 its not in its power band and you need to crack the throttle more. I tried this by running in drive at 2750 rpm - the motor needed just 47/256 on the VE table at 2750, shifting to 4th (OD) at 2000 it needed 130/256 VE which is a lot more fuel almost 3x as much. The trail blazers come with either 3.5, 3.7 or 4.10 gears. For folks not EFI friendly VE is the fuel control table. 256/256 is 95% duty cycle on the injectors.

The motor like to idle on just 7/256 - basically very little fuel .

M.

Sure would be cool to see a video of this thing in action.

Can anyone answer this question? thanks a bunch.

http://forums.trailvoy.com/showthread.php?t=41406&page=3

see post 30 for rough dimensions

http://img532.imageshack.us/my.php?image=732008011921xz3.flv

hope this works the camera operator needs a bit more practice - at the very start you can hear the tires bust loose going into 2nd at 35 mph

My first truck I drove was a 1950 GMC w/a 235 stick shift.
It would burn out very easy,I believe because the trucks are light plus,not much weight over the rear.


MBHD

thanks efi-dyi

that thing sure has a unique sound, looks good too.

Hey guys I'm looking into building a variable pulsewidth modulator. It will allow you to hook up the vvt and change cam position dependant on the throttle position. Basicly tighter lsa(more overlap at full throttle) and wider lsa for idle and off idle. I will post it here if/when its completed.

does anyone know how to decode the # stamped below the starter. am trying to determine what year engine I have.

Doug,

Does the engine have a metal or black plastic cam cover?

Post a pix and I can help ID the year with a few more questions.

also www.vortec4200.com

dedicated to the 4200 engine..