I'm going to try one more time.. what needed to help folks start using this engine?

On the fuel side what are folks ready to spend to get a non-efi intake? And what format ? 4bbl? 2 x 2bbl? 3 x 2bbl? Side draft ? If side draft which carb.

Or would a tuned ready to run EFI/spark controller do the trick?

One item that I won't do is a distributor ignition - there is no good technical reason to do so. Coil on plug is a lot neater install, the control box can be tucked away under the dash. Jerry W. has a dist. solution for this motor.

Add to the wish list here and if there is enough demand, I'll consider making the parts in qty. This would require folks to buck up. One thing I'm not ready to do is go build a given part xyz for member abc and then get stuck with it.

Thanks

wish list:

Just curious,what is the max bore you can run with sleeves installed?
It is a great engine!

MBHD

Hank

As you go bigger than stock bore you run into head gasket issues, the OEM gasket is a 3 layer steel - like a cometic and the fire ring is only 0.010 to 0.015" bigger than the bore.

The alternative is to goto a copper head gasket and o ring the engine then you can go bigger - say 0.060 OS as still have decent dry wall/sleeve thickness. I'd have to do some measurements to confirm this number.

With good cams and a ported late head, need power - run it harder. Some of the comp eliminator guys are turning >9800 though the traps... mind you this is a full race engine that doesn't have to last many miles between teardowns.

Being a 6 it still has the nasty harmonic issue - got to be able to buzz past it and keep the rpm above the harmoinic point.

What is the bolt spacing on the head bolts?
Got any pics of the top of the block?
Thanks

MBHD

oil pans to fit normal chassis
a detail of engine size and a list of junkyard tranny's that will fit it.
a how to on the ignition system.
a base map for the megasquirt system
a how to on the fuel injection.

you feel like writing a book yet? tom

Oil pan - take 2 canyon I5 pans and cut/splice ...

Unless we have a pattern maker here or enough demand to invest the 80 hours it'll take to design the pan + $5000 to get the 3D model done, this is going to be a tough nut to crack.
Not hard to pull a plug mold off of a fab'ed pan BUT this won't work - doesn't account for thermal shrinkage when a poured pan cools to ambient from 1220*F - it'll be undersize.

Base map - done

Engine size/pix - I can do something once the engine is assembled.

EFI/Ign.. how to .... possible it would take more space than what we have here though..

Trans..

Canyon manual, '02 up 4l60E with the atlas family bell housing installed.

The black opel team used a SBC scatter sheild and redrilled it to match the 4200 block. The block-trans dowel pins are in the same location as any other GM 250/292 six. So with some effort any GM trans could bolt up - maybe someone with a Mill could figure out an adapter plate.

Is the bellhousing bolt pattern the same as the LS1,LS2,LS3?

What trans did they run on the Glen Self race engine that was in the Blue 66 Nova wagon?
BTW,,,Where is the website that had the buildup on that wagon?
I forgot where it was.

MBHD

Hank,

No the bell housing is an odd ball. Its not an expensive part to buy new from GM. Get an '02 up 4L60E out of a full size truck and change the bellhousing - good to go.

No Idea what was in the wagon.. my guess was a th400 with the power they were making - even if the wagon weighted 2900# they were making insane power - I think it went like 155mph.

I wish Cunningham would open up a bit about that car.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=h...2US252%26sa%3DX

MBHD

hank, link does not work.

efi,
for the ignition, can a person use a coil pac setup from a newer gm v6 with the 3 coils mounted on the ignition module? or what do you recomend? tom

4200's have coil packs OE

Tom,

2 choices - depends if you want to run the GM electronics or aftermarket e.g. megasquirt (MS).

GM - run the motor as is - fine for a stock install.

MS - right now - you need to replace the COP coils with a ford EDIS6 wasted spark coil pack and install a 36-1 trigger wheel. MS can either drive the EDIS ign. module ( my setup or drive the coils directly - Black Opel Setup) The reason for deleting the EDIS module is it has a non-adjustable RPM limiter set at 7200 (best) which was too low for the race engine.

Soon ... you need to replace the COP coils with a ford EDIS6 wasted spark coil pack or run the GM COP in wasted spark mode (fire 2 coils off of one ign. output - not enough outputs right now to run 6 coils) and run the GM crank trigger.

Next year - install a 36-1 trigger wheel/pickup and use the COP coils << the MS guys have the first prototype sequential injection/COP controller built and its in testing.

Later next year - run the GM crank trigger and the above sequential/COP MS box << this will be nearly a plug and play with the OEM harness. Once a canned tuneup file is ready it'll be dead simple to swap one of this engines.

That will be a cool day indeed, when it arrives.

I'm working on this one. I have extended pickups already and considering a sheetmetal pan. Other options are too expensive.



PM me, I have a couple sketches.



Yep, the Canyon / Solstice trans will bolt up. Just need a flywheel.



Easiest, is to use the stock harness and PCM and get a custom reflash. PCM4less will do it for ~$150.

you feel like writing a book yet? tom [/quote]

Hi everyone! I just joined around here but been watchin' the site for a while.. I am a fan of inliners and have a couple myself, but what I'm really here for is this relatively new Vortec 4200.

The technology in it is nothing radical to me, all my experience with inline sixes has been from imports, and Toyota, Nissan, BMW, and others have built similar technology inlines (DOHC, 24V, variable cam phasing) for decades.

That said, I really want to put this engine in one of my cars. What I really need, though, is external dimensions for the 4200. I need someone who has one, to go measure how tall, long, & wide it is in different places, and give me an idea as to the size of this thing so I can figure out if I have a chance of fitting it in one of my cars or not. I'd rather not buy one just to find out its 4 inches too tall to fit under the hood.

Also, on engine management, I have an idea.. it might not work at all, but then again it just might...

Toyota has a motor they have used in several different models through the years, called the 2JZGE. It is the same motor used in the Supra, the Lexus SC300, and the Lexus IS300 here in the States, as well as a few other models it was put into in the Japanese domestic market. It is a 3-liter inline six, with coil-on-plug ignition, variable cam phasing, a regular cable-operated throttle body, and was available in several models with a factory manual transmission... the Supra Turbo uses this engine in its boosted form, the 2JZGTE. It also uses the R154 manual transmission, which just so HAPPENS to bolt up to the 4200 with the Colorado's bellhousing...

So I'm thinking, if I'm going to use the Supra's transmission, why not use its brain too? There is huge aftermarket support for this ECU, and it already is set up to use COP ignition and VVT (cam phasing)... why not fool it into thinking the 4200 is a big bad supra motor?

And before you ask, no this is not going into a Supra, its going into my 1986 Toyota Cressida (Toy's top of the line 4-door luxury sedan back then, before they invented the "Lexus" brand). The cressida came stock powered by an externally large inline six, the 5MGE, which also happens to be front-sump! Its like the 4200 was destined to go in there to replace the tired old 160hp sixer thats in there now!

I just need those measurements to know if it can work...

Also if I do this I will look into the possibilities of the Supra ECU thing and post a writeup here.

31x18hx17w does not include alt/ps pump etc. Height is measured from the oil pan flange to the top of the valve cover.

So its 31 inches long from front to back, and 18 inches high from oil pan to top of valve cover... now when you say its measured from the oil pan "flange", do you mean that the motor is 18" from the bottom of the sump area to the top of the valve cover, or 18" from the raised area of the oil pan just behind the sump to the top, or 18" from the lower block surface where the oil pan bolts to, effectively making this the height without oil pan?

EDIT: I would also like to know if the 31" length includes the crank pulley or if that is just the block.

Flange is where the oil pan bolts to on the block. The length is from the bellhousing surface to the front of the head overhang.

instead of making a new thread, since bellhousing needs changed from any other Lsx 4L60-E - what is the proper GM part number for the necessary bellhousing? my uncle works at a dealer so he can order it 10% over cost, and i can pop it on my 4L60-e from a 5.3 silverado and bolt it up

i wouldn't mind being the guinea pig for DIY harness rework if it meant getting destructions online to help everyone else out...

on the oil pan - where it comes down off the very front of the block at an angle toward the drain plug - can you cut the angle out and come straight up from the drain plug to a point and then out to the front? that for me would make it work without moving it back into firewall cutting territory... i can take a pic and draw on it to illustrate my thoughs more clearly.

The correct bellhousing is GM PN24220855. You WILL need a 50IP socket from snap on to get the bell housing bolts out, DON'T even think about using a torx bit. I learned the hard way on this one.

A few people have asked about an adapter to allow existing transmissions that have the SBC bolt pattern to be used with the 4200.

So I measured up both the SBC and 4200 bellhousings:

SBC on the left, 4200 on the right

from a 4L60E to get this adapter plate:



this view is looking where the trans will attached.

The conventional SBC starter location is on the bottom pass. side and to use a SBC type transmission e.g.(TH350/400) the bellhousing will need a notch/mod tig'ed on to clear the 4200 starter.

Also some sort of spacer will be required to take up the 3/8 spacer plate back spacing.

I'm very interested in this topic. I was seriously considering this engine to power my '54 Chev sedan delivery until someone steered me to a website for owners of the vehicles these engines came in (don't remember which site). The constant dissatisfaction of owners on this site were that although the engine is rated at 270 hp, the thing didn't really 'come on' until they reached higher rpms. Now I'm not really a 'HiPo' guy myself so I'm looking for an engine that would give my good low end performance around town and decent power and mileage when in OD on the big road.
Well, just this weekend I got to work on and subsequently test drive a '03 Trailblazer with this powerplant. Not real impressive, but I had to realize that the vehicle weighs in around 4700 lbs. - curb weight.
I'm sold on Electronic fuel inj./engine management so my next consideration for an engine would be a 250 (which I have) with a TBI/megasquirt setup in front of 4L60.
But I've not commited to either yet so will be watching for more input into this thread

I have agree that in stock form the early engines are a bit lacking in the low end torque dept. One thing these engines are begging for is a set of small diameter (like 1 1/8 or 1 1/4") x 36" (38"?) primary tube headers and on the early engines port the exhaust port its so darn restrictive. The headers will really help the bottom end.

If your handy with a welder there is a place on the web that sells exhaust head flanges for the 4200. A '54 should have lots of room for headers.

On the hwy in OD this engine is really good on fuel.

What are considered 'early engines' and what changes were made?

GM made two variants of the 4200.

'02to'05
'06 to end of production.

There were many small improvements made each year but in '06 the biggest change occurred:

New head with bigger intake/exhaust valve, longer valves, better valve springs and retainers.
Higher compression and redesigned camshafts.
The exhaust port was redesigned to allow the engine to breath better. A new aluminum valve cover and VVT actuator was introduced.

I'm ready to go shopping for an '06 engine/trans except for one thing. I pulled up a photo of one of these engines that was on an engine stand and that oil pan looks like a deal breaker. Has anyone had success with a rear sump pan yet?

If you need a rear sump, it can be fabricated from 2 5 cylinder oil pans out of colorado. This is by far the easiest way to do it. The oil pick up for the 5 cylinder can be extended.

Okay, now I get it. When I read the short statement at the beginning of this thread I didn't grasp the "2 I5 canyon pans". What years were these 5 cyl. engines offered. I honestly do not know what a 'canyon or colorado' is.

Its the pick-up truck series that replaced the S-10!

I now have questions about the STOCK AUTOMATIC trans. that would come with an '06 or later engine. Which one did they use (4l60E, 65, etc.) and would there be any problem putting one in my '54 Chev, such as size - as compared with using an earlier automatic overdrive.
I'm thinking in terms of purchasing an engine/trans as a unit from the same vehicle.

You can you any 2003 4L60E(65E,70E) that came behind either this engine or a LS series engine. If you get one from a LS series engine just change the bell housing to the atlas series.

Installation is less difficult than an earlier 700R4 as there is no throttle cable hook up. There are several options to control the transmission from simple to elegant.

Simple - replace the line pressure control solenoid with a vacuum modulator kit from trans-go. Then manually shift the transmission using 2 toggle switches.

With the manual shift leaver in OD(4th gear):

on == switch closed, one side connected to the solenoid the other side connected to ground.

gear 1-2 solenoid 3-4 solenoid

1 on on
2 off on
3 off off
4 on off

Use a factory GM vacuum switch from a early '80's GM vehicle to control the lock converter. If you find that the lock is too slow there is a simple (but permanent) modification that can be made to the valve body to eliminate the lock up feel oil circuit- I've done it on my truck and it works well.

There are several aftermarket controllers for this trans. the megasquirt boys also have transmission control in beta testing - I'll be restarting testing on it as soon as the little white ball bearings disappear. P275-60R15 tires don't mix well ..


Getting the entire engine/trans from the same vehicle is a very good idea. Also take the entire engine wiring harness.

The next question you need to answer is what do you want to use for the computer? GM or aftermarket?

There are advantages each way.

Can a 4L80E trans bolt up to the 4.2?
Thanks

MBHD

Not yet...

This is the reason why I want to make the adapter plate shown above. Just in case the '60 series can't handle what coming...

efi, dont suppose you have cam program for that already made up? I am not looking to make money off that, just want to have many more options when it comes to trannys. I've got access to all sorts of machine equipment.

Is that a solidworks model?

btw, efi-diy, a while ago you said you were looking into the test code for gm pickup etc (should this be a plug directly into factory pickup, or have to replace the pickup?)

Also, have you had a chance to play with this yet? I am getting real excited about the prospects of this motor, not so much EMS. I think ms2 sounds very interesting, but want to make sure I am not cutting myself short by going with the "cheaper" solution.

Sorry I didnt read the whole thread prior... no worries about the program... I'll figure something out....

As far as EMS, I think I am going to start looking at FAST/AEM/034 etc... unfortunately I'd like to more or less use the ecu in stock form (with the ecu handling for added manifold pressures etc) and not have to make a ton of changes...

This engine combo is really got me torn... fascination with the engine is huge... lack of a solid solution for EMS, fail.

I'm working with another inliner right now to get a prototype made up. So if you can wait until I can prove the design it would be better.

You can follow my progress converting MS to run using the GM crank sensor here.... http://inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=13 4200 turbo project.

efi-diy, would you happen to know what I could expect a good compression test to look like? Does 175-185 sound about right?

GM manual calls for 215 psi.

I just purchased an 07 4200 for my 53. What is the best location for the motor mount rubber isolator on a 4200 to be installed in a 53 chevy 210? Should it be installed near the frame or the engine. The engine mount is about 5 inches from and above the frame at the crank centerline. A lower location would aid in header design.

Mike,

Is your truck frame stock or does it have a front clip/mustang II suspension?

If you dig hard enough there is a place on the net that makes header flanges for the 4200. I had the link until one of my hard drives died.

My car (two door post) has a stock frame.
MLM

What is there to stop a person from running a conventional distributor off the cam and lose the ECU and coil packs? I'm thinking more along the lines of a carb induction engine in street car with minimal electronics. The head and combustion chamber design seems to be the main factors for the horsepower. Then figure out how to deal with or modify the variable exhaust timing which I think is responsible for the torque curve. I know I'll get lectured now but I'm ready, after all if I thought like the mainstream everything I own would be bent 8's.

Nothing stopping you except its a bunch of work. Jerry W. mounted a dist. running off of the exhaust cam. but kept the injection. I think he disposed of the VVT in the process. Ditto for the carb. All the comp eliminator racers using this engine are running carbs since the rules don't allow efi.

I'm just really curious what is underlying reason to want to run a dist. not to put anyone down or lecture but more to understand. Is it the comfort factor or ????? I'd really like to know. If your more comfortable off line then send a message.

For information to get the coil on plug ignition working using a ( I know that pesky) megasquirt. We need 8 wires + 1 vacuum hose. ( lets see here 6 plug wire + a coil wire + 12 volts to the coil + a wire from the dist. to the coil = hmm 9 wires )

The wires are:
+12 from the ignition switch (hot in run and crank) to each coil via a 15 amp fuse
Gnd from each coil to a common ground point on the block.
Coil trigger A going to coils 1&6
Coil trigger C going to coils 5&2
Coil trigger B going to coils 3&4
2 wires going to the crank trigger.

Also needed is a +12 volt wire (hot in run and crank)to power the MS and a 3 ground wires running to the common ground point on the block.

The vacuum hose runs from the intake to the onboard MAP sensor. All the rest of the sensors normally used are optional. A person might want to hook in a wideband 02 sensor to help tuning the carb though...

If this came in a box with the harness and the timing curve already installed ready to go would this make it easier?
In essence this is the same as buying a MSD ignition box to run a carb'ed LS series engine. Take it out of the box plug it in and start the engine.

The main reason for me would be a simplicity that I understand, (comfort)the same reason for converting an Ecotec 2.0 to a Mallory distributor driven off the rear of the exhaust cam and a homebuilt mechanical fuel injection. I understand if you're comfortable with the technology it's probably seems quite simple to you but for me I don't understand the Megasquirt system, I could hook up wires but if I don't understand what they do when something goes south I'd be lost.

I understand what you're saying. I'm stumbling through the Megasquirt process now. What's worse is that I'm also learning to do that in Windows while I do this on a MAC. I'm one confused puppy much of the time! But I understand so much more than I did a year ago. The MS is truly a learning process. I hope the comfort comes. That being said I have run a Pertronics unit on my '53 for years but there's points and a condenser in the glove box!

This should send a chuckle through most of you .. the first time I installed MS was in 2003, 2 days before I left to head to St. Paul MN. A 20 hour drive from here... Well my trusty Q-Jet was riding shotgun for the trip along with all the gizmos to hook it back up. And a spare MS.

Didn't need either one. Had other issues - PS pump puked on the way home - left me with no AC and it was 110*F outside.

I am going to start my project with the stock 2005 motor n/a until I can swap head/pistons/rods., and then move to something that will make a quick 450-500hp.. Dont suspect it'll be terribly expensive to make a bit more boost. My question is how to pick a turbo. I've seen the apps on the net, but I dont know all the metrics about ic decay, and pk hp.

Is there a way I can buy a turbo, and run it at a lot lower boost until I get the motor built up real strong?

I heard somone make mention of the holset hx40, would that be an ideal turbo for my ultimate hp goals?

efi, btw, my motor had a sensor broken in shipping that was right below the cam gears on the left side (looking at it from the front of the motor.) I was guessing a cam position sensor, or something to do with vvt.

I dont have my service manuals yet and would like to know what the sensor is.

If its right at the front of the motor its the cam sensor.

I've been waiting for someone to answer your question Mike, as I'm interested in using one of those engines in my '54 Chev sedan delivery. What transmission are you using? I hope that you'll be posting some pic's.

I saw a video of a guy racing an early '50s chevy car on youtube with a 4200 in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPJ6vBhHexg

MBHD

I bought the engine without a transmission. Want to buy a 4l60e. I look at my library of books about mounts. Boyd Coddinton's "Hot Rod Engines" shows insulators at either end. The real difference I see is the raised crank centerline. The stock centerline is at the bottom of the block. Pan depth of 8 inches. The 4.2l has an 8 inch pan depth but the crank centerline is 2 3/4 inches higher. Crank centerline will need to higher for ground clearance. I will post pattern when I make part,but that will be a while. Mike

Mike,

Any 4L60E that came behind a LS series engine will work as long as you change the bellhousing. The bolts holding the bellhousing are IP50 head DO NOT ATTEMPT TO USE A TORX BIT, you will bust the bit and/or strip the head of the bolts in the process. Either take the trans to a transmission shop and ask them to swap the bellhousing or by the IP50 bit from snap-on. These bolts are hard - even 100% carbide bits have a hard time drilling them out. Trust me you don't want to go there.