I have a 57 Chevy 2-door sedan, daily driver, with the original 235 six and a three-speed tranny.
The 3-speed is tolerable, except that I keep hunting for 4th gear while driving it (old habits die hard) and also it sometimes jumps out of third when I'm cruising on the interstate.
I'm looking for some options on replacing the 3-speed with a 4- or 5-speed. I want something simple -- I'm not a novice, just don't want to turn this into an R&D project: already got plenty of those!
Do a search for t-5 on this bulletin board. You can also check out my car clubs web site and go to "Dan" under the members page. There I have a quick drwing of how I made the T-5 work in my 54 210.
Dear Rick;
The M-21 should bolt right in. It's what 'everyone' did in the 60s.
Or; do the research that Dan suggests for that 'extra' gear.
Steve @ Buffalo has the adapter.
Good luck.
Easy deal would be old three speed with an overdrive. Must be someone out there with the parts, this way you are allready set up, no mods.
otherwise cut another hole in the floor and go T-5. I'd go with the automatic overdrive 200r or 700r4.
I actually have a T5 sitting the garage. Bought it for another project, then went in a different direction.
Biggest question would be bellhousing and clutch considerations. Trying to go quick and simple here, since my wife's after me to rebuild the front suspension in her 67 Mustang (yep, original Falcon 6 there), and my son's on me to help him with his 65 Econoline (240 6 in it, too), and a Model A rat rod project.
So many projects, so little time!
Hi Rick. I think you're better off going with a Muncie or a Saginaw 4 speed. My $1.25.
Martin
i am running a t5 and 235 in my 30 sedan[coach] and am very pleased with the results,i took the advice from the tech tips and all fit well.the only difference i did was put in a hydraulic throwout from howe racing and a master cylinder from wildwood.very smooth operation.i run with all the big v-things and pass the gas stations they stop at.
i forgot to mention that i swapped the tired original inline with a 54 235.i had kansas customs split my manifold put on some smitty's and just dressed her up a bit.we go to 2 cruises a week and one show on the weekends and that old 6 sure gets a lot of attention.some youngsters have never seen one and 90 percent have to ask what it is.this was my vision i had from the time i was about 10 and 43 years later i built it.most of my friends thought i was crazy.235 and a 5 speed t5...sweeeeeet....
i took the advice from the tech tips and all fit well.the only difference i did was put in a hydraulic throwout from howe racing and a master cylinder from wildwood.
So what did you do in regards to the bellhousing, clutch & flywheel? I'm probably going to rebuild & upgrade the suspension in the car this fall -- perfect time to also remove and replace the transmission (shortest downtime possible).
i used a 50 chev truck bellhousing.cluth plate from 85 astro van.the clutch housing was 54 chevy as was the flywheel.as for the trany mount i fabbed a crossmember in about ten minutes that works well because i used the truck bellhousing mounts.this is as smooth as it gets without going 700r or 200r.i was going 350 turbo but that was too costly.the t5 swap was under 600.i nused a salvage yard gearbox and everything else was new.you will need to have300plus gears in the rear.if not it will drop to nothing in od.i went with 370's.it cruises with the boyd cookie cutter cars and was built in my garage.that tears them guys up....a 25 dollar motor and a running gear for under 750 including rear..i just keep buzzin right along.
Thanks for all the details. I have quite a few other projects, so this has to be a quick in-n-out swap. The 235 runs fine -- I plan to add split exhaust, but now the tranny and suspension need work. Guess I'll just pull the 3-speed & bellhousing this fall, do a mockup on the garage floor, and see what all I need for the T5 swap. I really want the T5 in there, if it's not too much hassle, because I already have the transmission and I commute in my car. People think I'm nuts: commuting every day to work in a 57 Chevrolet, as if I'm abusing a religious artifact. I say, if you gotta spend X amount of time each day in a car, why in the world would you want to spend it in anything that ISN'T way cool...
To install T5 into '57 car, you don't need to change the bellhousing.
What is the T5 out of?
Tranny, clutch disc, driveshaft, shifter and hole in the floor should be all that needs to change.
Jim mentioned something very important and something I wished I had paid more attention to with my swap. If you have at minimum 3:55 or lower gears you should be able to use your 5th/OD. My ratio was too low. The other thing you may not be aware of, depending on what your tranny came out of, how short 1st gear is going to feel compared to the 3 speed. This may or may not matter to you. Use this link to identify what tranny you have (if you don't already know):
http://www.5speeds.com/t5/index.html and check out the Tech Tips section on the T5 on this site.
Martin
Correction: my ratio was too HIGH.
Martin
The rear is stock, so I'm guessing 3.73 - will have to check some books when I get home. Can't find any online references with axle specs for 57 Chevrolets.
Not sure about the T5, expect that it has the center-mounted shifter. I don't recall there being an ID tag on it. I got it a couple years back in a trade from a guy who just had it rebuilt for a race car, but smashed up the car while the trans was still in the shop. I was going to put it in my F100, but went with a T18 instead. So now I have this T5 sitting in the corner of my shop, and a Chevy that needs a new tranny....
When I was putting in a set of 4.10s I learned the old gears were 2.41. That was a freeway flyer and I couldnt even use 5th gear. I wouldnt recomend going that low, it defeates the point of running a 5 speed. Now with the 4.10s I find that I am cruising around town in 4th and driving on the freeway in 5th going about 65mph at about between 2500-3000rpm. I used the id decoder on the 5speed site, and it said My tranny was a .68 5th gear.
If the shifter is about 11" back from the front of the case, it should be out of an S10. Most S10's used a 4.03 first gear, but many had around a 3.50 first, which would be the one to get if possible. I hope it has a mechanical speedo? it will cost about $300 for a gizmo that will allow you to use a electic sender with a mech. speedo.
I believe your gear options for a '57 car were 3:55, 3:70, 4:11. Maybe 3:36 or 3:08, but I think those came into use a little later. I would have to check my books to be sure.
When using an S10 T5, you will need to shorten the input shaft collar and trim a little off the tip of the input shaft. use your 3spd for reference. Since the T5 is all metric, you will also need to drill out the mounting holes to 1/2". You will need to change the clutch disc because the spline count on the T5 is different.
When you get your disc, test fit the T5 and disc without the pressure plate and make sure the disc can move back enough to disengage from the flywheel. If not, then some grinding of the hub splines will be needed. Once that's all done, you can reassemble everything. Throwout bearing, fork, pressure plate can all be reused from the '57.
The T5 is longer that the 3spd, and has a different tailshaft spline count, so a driveshaft will be needed. I don't know if it will work in your car, but in my '53 truck I used one from an Astro van and changed out the rear u-joint to work with my '57 car rearend. If you cant find one that will work as is, then you will need to get your made/modified. Probably looking at $75-$150 to do this.
You do not need to add a tranny mount. The stock 4 point setup is fine as is.
Any other changes to the floor, etc.. that might be needed should be obvious once you get started.
With a stock camshaft and 4.03 first gear and a 24-27" tall tire, I would say that a 3:36 would work quite well for a daily driver. You may find first gear to be mostly useless with a 3:70 or higher ratio, but its not the end of the world to skip first. Just get it all put together and see how you like it before you change the gearing. Remember to check your speed, as you will probably need to play with the speedo gearing.
Thanks everyone for all the good information. I'm more of a brake-n-chassis man, not all that savvy with transmissions.
I'll check the T5 tonight and also the gearing on the Chevy's rear axle & let y'all know what I find.
Dear Rick;
I think that's best. Call Steve @ Buffalo and find out the rest of it.
I'm sure It's an adapter, hole in floor & driveshaft shorten. Spedo cable TBA.
Good luck.
It's a '57, no adapter plate needed.
That's right I forgot.
Now all he needs is, to check the splines on the disc, right??
Most are 10 spline (large) but some are fine.
I checked this weekend: yep, no tag on it. The only thing I did find was a barcode sticker on top, with "WG 1353012" which is probably meaningless.
I spun the shafts counted turns and the best I can tell, based on the online charts, the gear ratios are in keeping with mid-'80s S10s and Astro vans. So I'm probably good there.
OK: My next step is to count the splines this evening when I get home & start hunting for an Astro drive shaft. Ah... the good ol' days of scrounging in junk yards!
Hi Rick.
Those numbers say you have an '83 Camaro/Firebird trans for a V6. I'd put more faith in the metal tag but if your shifter is mounted closer the tail rather than the gearbox it's probably right.
Martin
The barcode sticker is how they are usually identfied, at least in the charts that I've seen.
Considering the way you obtained the tranny, and what the previous owner had indended to use it for, it possible that it is a combination of an S10 tailhousing/etc grafted onto a Camaro tranny.
As for getting a driveshaft, I would verify what you are going to need for length before you go spending any money on it. Measure whats in there center to center on the u-joints, compare the lengths of the trannys, and subtract the extra length of the T5 from the '57 driveshaft, and you should be really close. I can measure my Astro shaft when I get home tonight.
One other thing, the T5 has a snap ring about 3" or so from the end of the tailshaft. Remove this if you can. Its useless, and could cause problems should the yoke you end up using is longer/in closer than the factory setup forthe T5 was. You want to make sure that the driveshaft doesn't bottom out into the tranny before the rearend hits its full travel or you will break stuff.
OK -- Monday evening was Grand Central station at the house. Lots of family and friends just showed up and so I didn't get to scrutinize the T5.
Last night, though, I checked, and yep, probably an S10/Camaro hybrid. I can tell that the tailpiece was not original. That's good, though, since it puts the shifter in the middle of the tranny.
I checked the input shaft: 14 splines. Which reminds me: what about the bushing that fits into the crank? Any suggestions there?
Oh, and how do I get to that snap ring in the tailshaft? I can certainly appreciate the need to avoid bottoming out the slip yoke (shudder).
Thanks again, for everyone's input. This project is looking easier and easier, and better and better. This'll be a nice conversion, since my other driver is a '97 Jeep Wrangler and I won't have to do a mental reset when shifting in either vehicle.
R;
You'll need a 14 spline (fine) disc probably as most (early) ones are 10.
I can't remember on the pilot bushing. It may only be needed with the adapter, which you don't need.
Check with Steve @ Buffalo to be sure.
Good luck.
I've seen "Buffalo" mentioned several times. Who/what is Buffalo? (I presume they're a tranny shop).
He (Steve) MFG these (parts you may need) @ Buffalo Ent. He/they are located in Washington State, USA
He can be reached here: (360) 652-7684. Remember It's -3 hours from Georgia.......
Good luck.
No specialty parts required to do this change.
The stock '57 bushing is fine. Chevy used the same pilot bushing in nearly everything they ever made.
As to what disc to get, you need to know what diameter you need first, as there are several sizes to choose from. All the T5's use the same spline count except the Camaro V8 version, which you don't have. Most likely, a V6 S10 or V6 Camaro will have the right size to use.
First, look inside the tail end of the tranny and see if its still there. It may have been removed allready. If not, you will need to remove the tailhousing to get it off. A heavy duty snap ring pliers is needed to get these off. The little "pin" type pliers won't get it done. An S10 shop manual will have the info you need to go through the T5.
Remember, If you choose not to remove that snapring, then you need to make absolutely sure that the driveshaft won't bottom out on it.
kansas customs will no longer split exhaust systems i recently read somewhere
best to call b4 sending
rick
if it were a T5 hybrid i would think the spline count would be camaro @ 26 splines (input shaft) by 1 1/8'' if my memory works today.
gearhead
When using an S10 T5, you will need to shorten the input shaft collar and trim a little off the tip of the input shaft.
this should be made in reference to using the T5 in a 235 w/ the 235 bellhousing. cutting the input collar does not need to be done on some other L6 motors
Dear Rick;
Jim & Brian are both correct.
Simply get a disc to match you old one with the 26 (fine) spline.
With both transmissions 'side by side' just shorten your shaft by the difference.
Good luck.
Guys, he said it was 14 splines...
26 splines is for the 305 V8 Camaro ONLY,
everything else is 14 splines.
Since the front half of the tranny is from a Camaro instead of an S10, shortening of the input shaft and collar may not be necessary. As I said before, just compare it to your 3 spd after you pull it out to be sure. It should be 6 1/2", with a collar about 3 3/8". If the shaft sticks out 7", then it needs to be shortened...
Looking at the Astro driveshaft in my '53 truck, it is 50 1/4" from center to center, with about 3 1/2" from the front joint to the end of the tranny. This is on a lowered truck with the driveshaft nearly level. It still has about 1 1/2" of travel left on it.
Yes, it's certainly 14 splines.
Will all this info, this upgrade should be EASY (Yeah, I know: famous last words).
I think the old 3-speed knows I have it in my crosshairs: it jumped out of 3rd gear twice this morning on the way to work.
Like I mentioned earlier, I'd swap it this weekend, but I promised my wife I'd rebuild the suspension in her 67 Mustang, I have a few things to help my son with on his 65 Econoline before we take it to Shades of the Past in Tennessee this Sept, and my daughter just smoked the clutch in my Jeep (they say that if you haven't broken something on a Jeep, you're doing something wrong).
So it looks like all I need is a new clutch disk and slip yoke, maybe some driveshaft work, & I can darn well re-use almost everything else. The T5 I'm using already has a shifter on it, but needs a knob -- I hear Lokar makes a retro-looking knob for the T5.
Will let y'all know how it went once this comes up in the queue (maybe very soon, if I can sneak this one past the wife and kids... "Oh honey, something BROKE under there, barely made it home, gotta crawl under there and see, etc. etc.!)
Rick
Hey Rick, I replaced my 3 spd column shift in my 53 gmc 1/2 ton 228 last month with a saginaw 2 ring 4 spd. It was a direct bolt in. I bought the shifter from Patrick's. They modify a hurst shifter to mount on the front of the tail housing so the shifter comes through the floor in just the right spot. I'm using a 3.08 gear. It is unbelievable the way my truck drives now. No problem staying up with traffic. The gearing was perfect. The saginaw should be a bolt in for a 235. Just another option.