I'm putting a WC T-5 behind my 292 and now the starter has nowhere to bolt up. The tranny and bellhousing came from an 89 firebird. I've got to change the flywheel and clutch to fit the new bellhousing. The tranny won't bolt to the old cast bellhousing. Would it be easier to modify the old housing or is there an adapter that goes between the tranny and bellhousing and,if so, would that make it where the input shaft is too short to get into the pilot bushing OK? And is the old one cast or just steel? It's in the car holding the tranny and engine in place at the moment. And ,if cast iron, can I drill and tap it for the tranny? Sorry to be so long winded, just some of many questions I'll have now that we're underway here.
Should have said that the T-5 came with the bellhousing and flywheel from the Firebird.
Did you check the Tech Tips on the left side of the webpage? The T5 is addressed there, with links to other articles.
What is this all going into?
An '89 Firebird bellhousing would be the angled kind, and it is for the smaller 153 tooth flywheel and 10 1/2" clutch. The starter needs to be the kind with the bolt holes straight across, not staggered, IIRC...
With this bellhousing the rear mount will stay level. If you switch to a typical straight up bellhousing, you will need to customize the rear mount, just so you are aware of this.
As for not bolting up to your old cast iron bell, it should, unless it has the wrong center hole size. (I'm assuming your talking about one that will bolt up to a 292). If it has the larger 5 1/8" center hole, you could get an adapter ring from Advance Adapters that will take it down to 4 11/16".
No adapter plate between the trans and bell should ever be needed for what you are trying to do. You just need the right combo of parts.
Yes, the bellhousing is angled and I have the smaller flywheel. I just can't figure out how to get the starter to bolt up.And yes the mount stays level.
Sorry. putting in a 53 chev Sedan Delivery. Just trying to get some pics going here.
above is link to some pics
Then you're aware that the 153 and 168 flywheels use different starters, correct?
Because they bolt up differently, most, but not all blocks are drilled for both starters. If your block wasn't drilled for both, then you will either need to switch to the other size of flywheel, etc..., or drill and tap the block so you can use the other starter.
If the problem is with the snout of the starter not fitting in the bellhousing, then you either need to use a different starter, or do some grinding on the bellhousing to make it fit. Have you tried to use the starter from the '89 Firebird?
The trans should bolt to the cast bell housing.
If you have drilled out the bolt holes.To the bolt size used on the cast bell housing.
Jimmy
Because the firebird bellhousing is angled and the original 292 housing not, I don't know if I can turn the tranny on the original housing to an angle and still be able to drill holes that will work. As the pics show I had to put the engine and tranny back in the frame to get it home from where I painted it, but tonite I'll pull them out and get a real good look at everything again. If I can just drill new holes in the old housing, I'm good to go.
Also, how hard is it to drill and tap cast iron?
You would enlarge the holes on the trans.So you can use the bolts removed from the 292 bell housing.
Are you sure you have a 89 T-5,Not a later trans. with the ford bolt pattern on the trans and bell housing?
I have a 89 camaro T-5,it will bolt up to my cast bell housing.
Jimmy
the firebird tranny set in turned at an angle not upright, and the mount an an angle as well so when the tranny is bolted up, the mount is directly underneath. then the shifter comes out the top at an angle,then turns so it is vertical. I really don't know if I can drill new holes in the 292 housing and do any good, but that would be great. As soon as I get the unit back out of the car I'll post pics of MY Private Hell!
After looking again at the original 292 housing, I just don't see a way to re-drill the tranny mount holes. So back to square one again I guess
The point in using the 292 housing isn't to modify it to install the transmission at an angle. It doesn't need to be installed at an angle. It doesn't care.
When you install it straight up, then the transmission mount needs to be made differently, and you will need to bend the shifter, or use one from something else, like an S10 T5.
The "drilling out" refers to running a 1/2" drill bit through the transmission bolt holes because the trans. is metric, and the bellhousing is English. It's not about changing the bolt pattern...
Yep, I understand. As long as the hole in the 292 housing is the same as the firebird housing I should be good to go then. I'll know all that in a couple hours.
Also the holes in the 292 housing are differently spaced than the tranny holes. That's what I was talking about drilling the housing.
Also the holes in the 292 housing are differently spaced than the tranny holes. That's what I was talking about drilling the housing.
Then it would appear that something isn't what we think it is. Sounds like you have a Ford patterned T5 perhaps?
We're definitely going to need some pictures of the trans and bellhousing...
yeah I just got the engine and tranny out of the car and I'll post the pics directly
Gearhead, I was absolutely wrong. the tranny DOES fit the 292 housing. Just have to enlarge the tranny holes like you said. So I'm back in the game.Just have to fabricate a rear mount to make up for the 15 degree offset and get a clutch with the right number of splines and should be good. Tahnks to all you guys for the help. I'm sure I'll have all kinda questions before I'm done here though!
Great!
The clutch fork is at the wrong angle, so that needs to be addressed. I have something that will fix that.
And is the input shaft 14 or 26 splines?
If 14 and you are needing a 10 1/2" clutch, you will not find a factory application for that. It will require an aftermarket disc.
Also, if the flywheel is from a one piece rear main engine, it will not work on a 2 piece rear main seal engine. For that, you will need an '85 or older flywheel.
Many 292's had larger flywheel bolts also, so drilling out the holes may be necessary.
By using the 292 housing, the clutch arm should be right, shouldn't it? Seems the only thing would be the clutch itself. I should be able to use the flywheel from the 292,shouldn't I?
Tranny is 14 spline input.
I found an outfit said they can make me a 10 inch 14 spline clutch disc for around $100. Carolina Clutch.
The fork angle on 49-54 cars (and sedan deliveries) is unique, and the linkage design doesn't work like it should with a fork angle that is different, namely the near horizontal one on your 292.
My solution will require the original '53 fork and the part that bolts to it in order to work.
Of course, this all assumes you are still using the original under the floor pedal setup.
If you are using a 153 tooth flywheel, it should be 10 1/2" not 10" ???
Yes, the 292 flywheel will work. If it had the clutch disc and pressure plate as well, make sure you verify the outside diameter of the disc before ordering...
the 292 was already in it when I got the car. But it had the 3 spd. tranny in it out of a nova so the guy told me. He had reworked the clutch linkage and it seemed fine. After a little coaxing,(the car had been sitting for a couple years), Igot it running and drove it up and down the road for a while. The clutch worked like a champ. Everything new in there. I took a careful measure of the disc in the 292 housing and it came 10" spot on. Like I said, I can get one made. Little spendy, but what you gonna do?
Just for kicks, measure the pressure plate. The previous owner may have just thrown something together to get it to work.
If the throw on the pedal feels fine to you, then I guess your set.
If it was made to work by bending the fork, then you are pushing off center and you will eventually ruin the throwout bearing.
The bellhousing looks to be 50's vintage. Does it have 3 tapped holes for attaching the starter to the bellhousing rather than the block? what is the casting number?
I don't know about Fairbanks but Alaska Clutch Rebuilders here in Anchorage used to do semi custom clutch discs for stff like that fairly reasonable.
yeah, it has three tapped holes for the starter. I don't see a casting # unless it's inside. the block is a 67 I think. The pressure plate mounting holes in the flywheel are about 11 5/8
I'm not referring to the bolt holes on the pressure plate, I meant you should measure the diameter of the face of the ring that actually contacts the disc.
Now we know why you're having starter problems. You need a mid 50's V8 starter for that bellhousing.
The bell isn't really for a 292. Makes me wonder about the flywheel. If the flywheel is from the same source as the bell, then you could very well have a 10" clutch.
Sorry to have waited so long to get back to you. Had to go kill a moose. I wasn't having trouble with the starter per se. The starter has always performed flawlessly. Just trouble finding a place for it to mount. That has sorted itself out by using the 292 housing. And I DO have to have a 10" disc. I measured the pressure plate face that contacts the disc and it is right on 10". Found a place called Carolina Clutch that said they could make a 14 spline 10" disc for me for about $100. Unless I can find one already made that way, I'll have them make two of them so I have a spare.
The only factory 14 spline discs I could find were 9 1/8" and a 11" that are readily available.
Yeah not sure I can get an 11" to bolt up to the 292 housing. gonna check and see tho. Other than that I guess it's get one made.
14 spline 9 5/8" from a Jeep. Close enough to 10" for most applications.
When I said starter problems, I meant in how it bolts up, not how it functions.
Yeah not sure I can get an 11" to bolt up to the 292 housing. gonna check and see tho. Other than that I guess it's get one made.
Not sure if this will work for you----I used a 10.5 clutch disc---same used for years in Chev V-8`s----had the Clutch Doctor make me one with the 14 spline center hub---he is located in North Branch MN----651-674-4175. Good Luck............Lee
Missed the post,were 53ChevSD had measured the mounting holes.
Jimmy
The 168 tooth flywheels could come drilled for either 10.5 or 11 inch pressure plate according to stovebolt.com. My '63 C-10 pickup w 230 is 168 tooth, and clutch pak is 10.5.
Gearhead, I'll try the jeep application. See how that works. I think you're probly right tho. close enought for the power I'm running in this motor. Hope to build another tho that will take WAAAY more clutch! ya know which jeep disc to look for or will I find it easily enough?
'84-90 Cherokee.
FWIW, the 168 tooth flywheel could be had with up to a 13" clutch disc, depending on application. That's why you need to measure...
Like I said, the pressure plate mounting holes in the flywheel are about 11 5/8 in. If I can get an 11" clutch to work there, fine. And I don't mind having to drill and tap new holes in the flywheel if that's what it is. Whatever happens, I only want to do it once.
I had the same trouble with a T-5 up to my 230 c.i. L6. I finally found Fort Wayne Clutch and Driveline, Ft. Wayne, Indiana. They made me a 10.5 inch disc with 1" 14 tooth spline for 40 odd dollars. Top job. Great, good people. I used a Pressure Plate from a '72 GMC pickup that had a staight 6, 250. But that clutch was not 14 tooth. Perley
Got a 1" 14 tooth spline 10 1/2 clutch disc for my '60 C10 235 w/ T5 from advance adapters, p/n 716104.
http://www.advanceadapters.com
I wouldn't rush into shelling out big bucks for a spare plate if there's a cheaper standard one available that will get you out of trouble...