Hi guys!

I´m trying since January to take a 12 port Cylinder head from Sissel´s shop, and Hank is helping me a lot with this making the intermadiation between me and Mike, but it seems that the 12 port is no longer available.

So... I was wondering. What about a Hybrid cylinder head??
It´s better than Sissell´s 12 port head??

Does anyone have any information about this??

I contact CDP Auto Machine, and I know that there is an inliner member from CDP.

Any information about the Hybrid cylinder head will be fine, like costs, flow numbers, etc..

Douglas Carbonera - Brazil

Yes It is Leo Santucci who has a 292 with the V8thing Head. and if I remember it is also a Alum
set of head/s cut and rewelded into One.
One of the Main draw back with Useing the V8 heads
Is you now also have to Make different side covers for the lifters Because The Push Rods are
Now out side the Block.

Check the classifieds - I think Deppe is making a 12 port head

Before you do that,
you might want to conduct a poll to see if there dealings w/Joe Deppe are good ones?
Just a thought.

why are the heads not available from sissels? i know where a older head is and can find out for you douglas. tom

Mike says he is not going to cast anymore.
He has none in stock. All gone. He doubt's he will make any more.

Tom if you could find a head for Douglas that would be great!

Deppe is not making anything For that matter he is
trying sell it all from what i understand.
AND secondly GOOD Luck getting anything from him.
It to is to my understanding he's about as crooked
as a ligthing bolt when it comes to getting the
stuff from him ONCE you send him your money. SOOOOOOO
buyer BeWare. And this problem is NOT JUST to US buyers here in the USA.

Larry:
O saw some pictures at CDP Auto Machine Site! I like the way to put a cross flow head in a Chevy 6... But, it seems it´s a very difficult to adapt the head into the block. Like bolt battern, water passages, push rod side covers.....

6inarow:
Hank told me that Deppe´s Head have an old port design, and don´t flow like a Sissell´s head... If I don´t get Sissell´s Head, I will contact CDP Auto Machine to make a Hibrid head maybe...

Tom:
The head not available is the aluminum 12 port!!If you know one of that, please, let me know! I want it!!

Hank:
Don´t you sell your 12 port head for me??
Just Kidding!!
What a sad thing Hank!! I´m really disapointed with that!! Mike offer´s me the Lump Port, but I don´t want it.

Larry:
Thanks for the advice!!
Hank told me too that Deppe is not a good guy to make any kind of business.

I was looking last night in Leo´s book...
Does anyone here know "Bow Tie" cylinder heads??
They make Hybrid heads too...

Any information?

"Bow tie" is the nick name for the Chevrolet emblem. Leo uses aftermarket heads. You must fabricate the intake, exhaust and sideplate. The block deck must be pluged and redrilled for the new headbolt pattern. This is not a simple bolt together engine combination.

Thanks Armond!!

I really want something different for my car.
If I bring one of this two head, the Sissell´s 12 port head or a Hybrid head, I will be the first brazilian guy to run with this stuffs here in Drag Racing...

Gentlemen;

What happened to that "trick" head that was made from two SBC high preformance ones?? It was shown here a while back.

What happened to the Sissel 12 port one for the 250/292 that was in production?? Last year as I remember.

Has the high fuel cost killed that too??

John!!!

Sissel´s head is no more available! No more castings, no more in stock... NOTHING!!!

My hope is on this Hybrid head! Maybe the guys of CDP Auto Machine can make another one...

Another possibilty is to get enough commited interest with hard cash commited ($1000 each) for an order of say 500 heads and then approach edelbrock, DART , or possibly AFR with an order. My guess is that they won't turn it away. BUT I dought that we would get that much committed interest here.

that's a good idea. who want's to pursue it?

If your all REALLY that interested in coughing up that Kinda MONEY THEN WHY not send it to MIke Kirby He already has the casting done. WHY FIDDLE FART around with someONE who don't even CARE geez.
Just My2cent.
And Besides that Their not about to be that interested to start with for a Motor That's NOT EVEN BEING made anymore. GET REAL.
And to much other work needs to be done to the
Blocks to run the V8style heads to even start
with JUST like Armond said.

Okay; that sounds like the place to start then.

Perhaps Larry could give Mike a call to see if he's interested etc.

Then; We open an escrow account and collect the money. When It's all there, (in escrow) Mike will know were serious and make them.

Should be a 'done deal' by mid Spring.

twisted, it was said earlier in the post that mike don't/ won't make them anymore? maybe he could sell the patterns to someone who will. tom

The key to success here is to get the price of the head down to $1000 for a complete head.

John's idea of an escrow account is the correct way to proceed this way no one has to worry about their cash vanishing into thin air.

Issues that will need to be solved is runner and chamber volumes. For a 250 ci motor most likely the intake runner should be around 170cc (think 327 sbc) and for a 292 around 195 or 200cc (think 400 sbc). For a real high output 250 the 200cc head would most likely be fine, but to big for a mild to med. street motor.

If the chambers were sized to the 250 stock volume with enough deck material to allow milling to sub 194 volume would this satisfy everones needs?

Also personally I'd like to see bosses cast into the intake runners to allow direct fuel injector mounting along with the needed hole to hold the fuel rail in place.

To ease installation the proposed head should maintain the inline head bolt pattern and valve train geometry - comments?

Other items that would need to be agreed upon are intake manifold flange and exhaust header flange. Obviously keeping the stock exhaust flange would be best for most folks.

Intake manifolds would also need to be designed and fabricated.

Does anyone here have pattern making exeperience?

I think the guy with the choped 40 coupe does. There's a guy that built a 'fancy intake' for a slant 6 Dodge as well.

Some 'wiz kid' with a CAD program & some enginering smarts is just waiting to be heard.

Stand up and be counted!

Anybody with a welder and grinder (and big hammer) can build their own intake.
There are plans and calculations in Leo's BOOK.
I built mine from aluminum square tubing for bling, but steel would work just as well.

I have built my own intake ,And Im now doing another out of Alum. for my New/Fresh Motor.
I'm also going to be making Both intake & exhaust flanges for the New intake & headers.

Now as for this head issue Thing. Edelbrook was
approach few years ago WITH Blue prints Inhand
And they flat out told Him They had NO interest once so ever. 1Main reason is there is Not Nore
is there any High volume of interest(meaning sales) for Them to even bother thinking about it.

So really The bottom Line is You would/will Never
see a Head for our L6s Priced at 1000 bucks
( even if every club member wanted one) out
Of Alum You can't even do a V8 set, cut into one for Our L6s for that Little.
Mike Kirby But a LOT of his Money and Time into
the head and what he is asking to me Is more then a fair price. Especialy for a VERY Slim & Slow market.
So pesonaly even On a PrePay If there isn't enough
people Buying It still wouldn't off set the cost to have them cast & machined.When the start-up costs are in the 10s of thousands of dollors. It would take almost forever to recover the start up costs. And we are a very slim club when it comes to Having a High proformance HEAD sitting on our Motors.Not something a guy wants for His daily driver.

thanks for letting me now Vent my 2cents.

Perhaps a head count is in order as to how many folks are interested and ready to front cash by say Feb. 1/07. If the numbers are not there the rest really doesn't matter. Perhaps there are members that don't come in here that may be interested if you know of folks contact them and enquire.

Your both right.

This is why the Wayne MFG Co. is "on hold" etc.

Before we get all steamed up here, let's see what Mike wants to start up again.

Then; if we can meet that number it may be possible.

I agree with Larry. $1,000 is not enough for a complete set up. That would only cover the accesories, maybe??

A realistic number is probably $4,000. :rolleyes:

For the sake of discussion ONLY (and not to anger anyone!!!!), if Mike is not interested, maybe we might have a big enough group to approach Deppe and keep him on the straight and narrow. Sometimes, as the song goes, "you cant always get what you want, ... but you get what you need". Lets not get all wound up about Deppe, and lets be rational - this might be an alternative

SO.. whats this head really worth to the 50% of the guys on this board that are running in the 14"s if they are lucky? I would say 4 to 5 tenths. In my case maybe I could make into the 14s.When I weigh $1000.00 against that...huummm Now talking SHOW and BENCH racing..... PRICELESS!!!!

Personaly I think and fell You'd have better luck with Mike. At least is on the up&up with out a dout.and again I personaly wouldn't deal with Deppe.
And besides That Mikes Head is much more up to date and More HP(gain) then the Older Deppe head.

And yes 4000 is going to do a lot more then a grand.Because your talking Just shy of 4000 for
His stageIII head. Plus intake valve cover your
exhaust so on(extra goodies) to go with it.
Which still one of the BEST Bangs for the Bucks.

If you was to spend that Kinda money on that Head you wouldn't be shooting for 14s I'll tell you that Much.
The Older head was good for 2hp per cubic inch.
That head was on a 230 that Put out 460hp it had a 800 lift cam and feed with 3 660 Holleys.

twisted, just to add in a small plug. the model A motor has not been made for a few years, yet there is a new head out there called the riley. i don't even know anyone working on one of those motors. lets keep our thoughts clear and explore the different alternatives. maybe deppe could build the heads if he was managed with the production. he could possibly update the chambers and ports also. why isn't mike doing the heads any more? tom

It not that he isn't doing heads. It just that The cost is Not cheap.
Let me put it this way If you were the One Putting out all the Bucks and Not getting the investment Back soon/fast enough To off set the OUT-a pocket money and They SAT on the shelf For
any time frame Would you keep making them?? faster then you could ever sell them??

Here I have a Much Better example I think.?
when I do a cast Run of my Lumps I don't do a
thousand of them. Lets say i only do 100-200 at a time. Sure may cost me less to do the thousand.
But it would take much more Out of pocket in the
long run. Because of the time it would take to sell that thousand.
What ever you make or sell OR to sell you want that product to pay for itself and for ITself to pay for the next batch and in Hopes????????
because you don't want the reacuring costs comming out of you own pockets, while your waiting for the firsts to sell.
And this applys to anything. It's one thing to brake even On things But That still never pays for your time and effort.
maybe I'm way off here Or just my way of thinking. But if the market just isn't there then your only going to lose money in the long run.

I'm with tlowe's thinking. FYI go to www.secretsofspeed.com and click on scalded dog speed parts. You will see the Model A guys step up and buy their speed parts. Charlie has small runs once a year - I dont remember the number but its 25-50 at a shot. Asks for 50% down and he sells them. He has them sold or committed for before they produce them and then he does his job and gets a quality product out at a reasonable time. It seems if the Model A and B guys can do it the 292 guys can too. and whats more they sell 2 types of heads - the Lion and the Riley, plus all the crap that goes with them.

If Mike isnt interested, give Deppe a shot and then hold his feet to the fire. if he doesnt produce, go through the legal channels. I'm with tlowe - lets explore different alternatives

I too, (vaguely) remember the Riley head from the 50s 'dry lakes crowd'. This appears to be a remake with todays technolgy etc.

I don't know Mr. Kirby, but he has the latest information on these (1963-??) Chevy 6 heads etc.

Let's find out HOW MUCH and go from there. It's definately to much money to start from scratch.

IF, (the big if word) we had orders for 20 heads @ $4,000 that would be $80,000 in escrow. Now; he could expect 1/3 front money or $24,000, right??

Larry, see if 24k gets any interest??

larry you are right if you dont make your money back fast it is not worth making the part.

and from what i have seen most of the inline 6 people are cheap. look at a lot of the posts. i want to go fast but don't want to spend any money.

the deposit for the riley head is more then what a lot want spend for compleat head for a 6.

Now that we are bringing in Riley 2-ports into this thread, it should be noted that in 1954 Harry Warner was asking $330 for a 12-port head set-up for the Chevy 216 and early 235 engines.

In 1960, a 21-year-old service station mechanic, making about $2 per hour, paid $405 for a 12-port head (with valves, springs, rocker arms, valve cover, side plate, head bolts, etc) for a 261 from Bob Toros. Toros had acquired the patterns for the original "Wayne head" from Harry Warner and modified them for the 18-bolt 235s and 261s. Of course, once the 265 and 283 V-8s became established, the demand for Chevy six equipment declined somewhat.

If one assumes a 5% inlation factor, $330 in 1954 wolud be well over $4,000 in 2006. It is not easy to get much high-tech casting and machining for "only" $4,000 now in 2006. What does a good machinist or mechanic make now?

Are there any inliners with machine shops in China? An Enco mill is a lot less expensive than a Bridgeport, but it's not made in the USA.

Hoyt
II #922

Well ok not that i really wanted to be the Middle
man here. But How ever i did take the first step.
I spoke with Mike kirby tonite for about 2hrs.So
bottom line is this to keep a long story short.
1) resaon for not making More heads Is Old molds
which may?????????? or may not need some repairs?

The molds he has/or has made
were not built like edelbrock,Dart,roush,merlin
to where they would out last a life time of
castings. These were ment for low productions
(lets just say 20-30) now if they did need to much
repair and New Mold would be in order WHICH
could run from 5-10,000??????? And by the time
they were cast/made it would be at least a year
by the time he got all the machine work done on
them to Be ready to go out the door. AND due to
the increase In FUEL & cost of ALUM. They would run a little more then what He just sold these
last ones for. Which could be????????
about 1000. more. so you would be looking at
ruffly 5000????. out the door and ready to go.

Now on to the whole dollor thing. yes we did talk
about that as well, about this escrow way and having 24k more or less ??? So that each is
pretty much on a prePaided and all the money was
pretty much there. So that less out of Pocket sorta speak. Then yes maybe if it showed enough
interest That you guys wanted to go this route.

I maybe interested in playing middle man to a
degree, But as for the Middle man with this escrow
I'd have to say sorry. this would have to be
handled between You guys and Mike on how you would
handle that.
But if there is only a handful ( 5-10 )thats willing to cough up the Bucks.Then I have to ask Please don't waste my time Or Mikes and this is my oppion not HIS/Mikes because it's not worth our
time if your just talking wind and going to let
the Ball Drop. Yes i picked the ball up and Now it's Yours.

So now for my last 2cent oppion is a old fraze
The men step up to play and the boys go Home.

Larry,

Well said and thanks for your efforts.

As Larry said its time to stand up and be counted. I'm in if the head with guides and seat done with valves - no springs for under $2K.

If I you can get a pair of really good PAIR of SBC heads for < 2K I can't see why we can't get a single head for that price.

Ummmm, Lets see ,,,, Larry said it would cost $5000.00 less springs $4,700.00
Where is $2000.00?
He said it will cost more now to make these heads,,,, not less.
So when Mike had these in stock they were $3000 & up,,,, back last year, they are not going to be cheaper now.....

Reason you can't get a Chevy six cylinder head for $2000.00 is because there is not a high demand for them.Plus,,,,,
Reason SBC heads are readily available, they are so popular...

There are mutiple companies making SBC heads competing against eachother that is why you can get them for a relatively cheap price.

Okay, we need to do two things here.

First: We need to see (exactly) how much it will cost to get the molds in shape for a 20 head run. Mike K. can do this.

Second: We need to see how many are interested in buying a $5,000 head. Post a poll here and see (exactly) what money we can get.

If 25 people sign up then it 'can be done'.

There's probably 2-3 that would buy them as an investment. What would a Wayne (new unused) be worth today??

In the "land of money" $125,000 is nothing today. Try some ads in Forbs, USA Today or the Wall Street Journal. It's out there, 'seek & ye shall find'.......

If you guys Look at Mikes web site You will see his stage3 is a fully done head from start to finish even stage two is Out the door ready to go head with all the goodies. Stage 1 pretty much a bare bone head. all the machne work is done
(seats,guides,street Ported,valves, guides honed,
and a valve job,)
Stage two has more and Stage 3 has more.
So stage (1) OLD Prices 2940, stage (2)3320
Stage (3)3650 OLD priceing. SO now due with the higher cost of Pretty much everything To Build the
same is MORE.

And Bottom Line is NO real Call/Market for this stuff sadly enough to say.
and from what I have seen over the years myself is that when somebody wants something Its here and NOW or more yesterday NO BODY wants to wait. Because all of a sudden they have a wild hair up their Butts and once the wild hair is gone THEY DON"T CARE plain and simple.
When Mike first made this new head it sat there and sat there,Then a Hot Rod mag did a story
and the Wild hair was up everyones BUTT. So even Now that the wild hair is gone Once again so are the heads. Even To me this makes for a real headack.
The V8 heads are like Butts & elbows everyBody has them and This is mainly why they can be Made so cheaply. NO Body wants to fix anything IT's BUY it and GO and the Heck with waiting.
Another very good example is when I first made MY
bell cranks It was like everyone wanted/needed one
now that those few/handful got what they wanted,
there is very little interest now. But That is just the way things are In OUR own little inliners world.


We are the few and we are Proud Of what we have.
And did anyone ever think On how old(young) some of these guys are and did it ever cross your minds They Just mit be getting a Touch burned out? Yes we need some Young Blood to step up and take over BUT we are still a very slim group That
want The HIGH TECH/Go fast goodies and even we are getting older, but we still want what we want
and Most of US want it NOW not later. Yeah I'd love to have one of then heads Or even one of the very first ones. But like I have that kinda money.And I know many of you Don't either,Yes it would be SWEET if we could get what the Vguys have.When it comes to picking up the book or Phone and say Hey I want that. But the Inline market Just Got Pushed WAY to far out/Back.For prices to even come close.And most of us Just want a good Sweet daily driver who now and then
can Blow the doors Of the vthings and the Tuner guys.


I'm sorry if I come across as being a smart** or even cold hearted in this matter, BUT reality is
what it IS.And sadly to say is we are truly a small But PROUD handful in a Tuner/vthing world.
Were things are cheaper for them.

To me this club is Great in many ways. We each try our best to help out. And for those that can
make things EVEN one offs and if some else see's it and likes it sometimes Gets A copy of those one offs. ALot of the Things i have seen Home made
are VERY Sweet and in some cases a true peice of
art/craftsmenship. And I try to do what i can,
and Im very Greatful for all the Feed backs &
intersts people show. I know I'll keep doing what
I can But i know one day I'll get the burn out to.
But hopfully someone would or will fill my shoes.

sorry for the Long wind.
BUT THANKs Guys

larry you have said the same thing i have only better and a little suoercoated. but still dead on.

i have some ideas for some heads but i have to say is it worth it. tie up my machines working on something then no one wants to pay for it.

one thing the enco mill is better then the bridgeport.

"If I you can get a pair of really good PAIR of SBC heads for < 2K I can't see why we can't get a single head for that price."

Comparing limited production parts to GM copies isn't the same thing. If you look at the costs of the SB2 or SB2.2 heads and compare to the Kirby pieces it would be a "little" more fair.

CNC machined SB2 heads complete with intake manifold and valve covers will be about $11,000. A single NASCAR team engine shop will buy more pairs of SB2.2 heads than Mike Kirby can find buyers for his stuff. When you are doing limited runs of anything, it gets real time consuming. No assembly line. Each opperation is a new machining setup. I'm surprised that Mike would even consider doing another run. He might have kept himself busy with the last run, but I'm sure he didn't make money on them. If he had, he'd be anxious to do some more. He has probably spent sleepless nights thinking that he'd have made more money if he'd just been doing commercial valve jobs.

I have to agree with Twisted and efi-diy that getting a run of new aluminum heads made is not for anyone wanting to make money. There simply would not be enough volume. I know the Riley arguement has been brought up, but it is much easier to cast and machine than the late inline head. Also, for many Inliner's, partly out of necessity find their own way to do things and not spend the big bucks to get a job done.

There have been a lot of technological improvements in the ~45 years since the late motors were designed,but without going to a cross flow head, what will the average (not hardcore super funded racer) gain going to a new aluminum casting? Other than some weight savings and a cool factor for the few who will know the difference, will there be as significant advantage over a stock head that is done by a knowledgeable and talented engine builder?

i was just going to bring up the cross flow question, you kinda beat me to it. has anyone know why there was never a crossflow design instead of the duggan/deppe/sissel design? if a head is to be made why not engineer a better trap. would not a crossflow outperform , yes i understand it would not fit any stock parts. tom

there is a crossflow head. it is made from 2 merc.cruser 4 cyl. heads look in leo's book it fits the bolt pattern and the push rods are in the stock location.

those heads were also used in the pontiac iron duke. it was produced from 77-92?. it started as a head simular to ours with intake/ exhaust on one side, then in 1980 went to cross flow. they can be picked up cheap, but the factory ones were prone to cracking. the aftermarket heads were better. tom

A cross flow head would not necessarily be better.

Mike is close to 400 SCFM w/his head now.
The new ZO6 Corvette head CNC ported from the factory flows 360-380 CFM. 505 HP
I need to look that up again to make sure on the Z06 heads.
Now these heads has GM engineers & designers all working together to put out the best head possible.
Think about how much money & time spent to get these flow numbers.
TWO cents......

If we go to a new design, that means new molds.

It's going to be faster/cheper to upgrade the ones he has now.

The question still remains: Can/will he run the 20 heads for that much ($100,000) next quarter??

Ya'll might wish to poke your nose in over on fordsix.com and find a user by the name AZCOUPE.

They've recently had someone cast aluminum heads for the small ford six and plan to cast a few for the 300.

If anything, he'd give you a real world idea of what to expect/ potentially give you another option.

Well,
if he can make heads for a Chevy, I hope he can get them to flow good, because those aluminum heads he makes now for the Fords do not flow too well.

I think the main reason(they do not flow well) is because he made them to fit stock headers,so people do not need to make custom headers & so on.

Gentlemen;

Mr. Kirby has spent thousands of dollars/hours and several years making one that works well, but there's NO demand.

This means; NO customers.

The SBC folks have the customers & thats why there's are being made etc.

Hank

Thats a new one on me, they seem to have developed interest. I was thinking more in terms of these chevy folks getting their hands on a proven design..then..well..see where Im going...

JHM

Fully understand, theres no real market for the aluminum ford heads either, especially the 240/300. So, it might be interesting to find out why this guy is still willing to persue it...maybe the key is in the company doing the casting...who knows


Personally, I think cutting up existing SB heads is ideal, if you can find someone that can weld and find one that aligns without too much drama.

Something interesting, a guy over on the other forum, found out that LS1 heads actually align real nice on the ford 240/300 block, oddly enough. Does require intake, header of course but still, otherwise, most everything aligned great with minimal modification to the head...he actually sold it for a very reasonable price.


Is there a SB head that has decent bore spacing/ bolt/pushrod alignment for what you all are looking for?

They do flow a lot better than the stock cast iron head, so don't get me wrong.

But comparing it to Mike Kirbys cylinder head, it does not flow well.

I think another reason they cannot flow well on there smaller Ford six cylinders is because there bore is smaller than the Chevy's?
So it forces you to use smaller valves.

But yes, it seems people are interested in that cylinder head.
Look @ the smaller 6 cyl. Ford stock cast iron integral intake,, pathetic.
So anything should be better that the original design.
I forgot how much is the guy asking for their 6 cyl aluminum head?

If we could get an LS1 cylinder head to work that would be great, but I believe the head bolt spacing if off.
Those LS1 heads flow great!!! esp. the LS6 Zo6 Heads!

O.K. here comes a maybe strange idea.

Whish List:

1. Crossflow 12 port
2. maybe Hemi chambers (if we find a solution for Valvetrain geometry)
3. bolt on
4. cheap and aviable aftermarket valve train/roller rocker/intake/exhaust headers
5. cool vintage (at least retro) look
6. flow
7. cheap as any good V8 aftermarket head lets say max $800

Is that possible?

Yeah sure! dream on Frank

Now here comes the real strange idea:

I talked to some casting companys and thay say that the internal passages in the head makes both - the mold and the casting so expensive.

Who says that a head has to be a one piece design?

Think of cutting a head horizontaly like an hot dog bun. What you get is 2 relative simple cast pieces. That way one can make an even more sophisticated design. Having acsess to the internal water/intake/exhaust passages would be also great.

Best of all, it can be done on a CNC machine from an aluminum block. So we can skip the casting fuzz completley.

What do ya think?

Frank

Hank

I agree. I think the ford head was done, as more of a "hot street" design, with room to grow. I do understand what your saying.


Frank


Thats definitely an original idea.

Okay; If were going back to "square one", then it should be OHC as well, like the Pontiac 6.

How close is it to a 250/292 block?? We all know It's similar.

Finding someone to spend several hundred hours FREE is the problem. Plus the 'out of pocket' expenses needed & the time (a couple of years) too.

There's NO CHANCE till the $100k is in escrow.

It's all ecconomics. You can take your $5,000 (cost of head) and buy a fair used car, clean it up and re-sell the same year and make a grand, perhaps more (5=6).

That same 5k would sit in escrow for at least 3 @ 4%. You do the math.......

This is why Wayne MFG and Mr. Kirby are 'burned out' on it all. The Ford guy just hasn't reached that point yet.

The Last Time i'm going say this. The V8 head & L6 Block. The Block NEEDs to be Plugged and ReDrilled
And different Head gasket is in order as well. NEW
Fabed lifter cover Plates. Custom Headers a
Intake. Or a adaptor Plate made at the very Least.
NOW The head Must be cut-up ReWelded and Pressure
Tested.And One other issue That to needs to be looked at is the Different Rocker arm ratio.
So more OR less this ALSO effects The Cam profiles.Especialy when it comes to turboing,
blowers, NOS.

And now your talking about a two peice head.
Who in the world you going to get to make a
GASKET for That?????????Let alone waste that Much FREE time?????? in the R&D. Then TRY and torque
THAT head down to Specks. GET REAL way to may
added Issues THERE personaly.

again PERSONALY I think you all would be one step ahead IF you just Coughed Up the BUCKs bought the
Prints/Castings and went from There?????????
But Your still not going to find the market.
cause Once Again IT'S a WILD HAIR. and once it's
Gone It's Gone till the Next.

Plus, whos to say its going to run that much better? Think of dallors per hoursepower gains! What else could be done for $5000, you can do alot of work to castiron head for that kind of money, plus the intakes and exhaust are all ready to go.
Just because it flows 400cfm doesn't mean its going to work with your engine. You need a head that is adaptable to differnet engine combinations, so starting with a smaller port and less air flow will let you increase the volume and flow as needed. Starting out at full race spec's is a sure way to slow down 90% of the cars you put them on!

That's right Joe. This is only for the 'high end' user.

We may have the 20 required here + 5 alternates. But; Do they ALL want to 'tie up' 5k for 3 Yr. etc.??

I have heard through the grapevine that Leo's engine has been having problems w/the deck surface.
Head, not sealing good to the deck, deck surface problems? Something to that nature?? Can't confirm that though.

With the head that Mike Kirby had(12 port aluminum) , you could have the ports small,(as thay come casted) install small valves,make different size chambers & so on, so ,if you want you could have the intake ports small cc volume(as they come casted) or opened up large.
If you wanted it to flow 200 CFM thats up to you.
250 CFM, 300CFM, & so on, it could be done with this head.

So it could be used on low performance applications or full on drag race applications.

Sure it could Hank.

Think what your saying though; You want to pay several hundred $ per hour to 'downgrade' a proven High Performance product.

John H. Meredith,,,,,,


That comment was directed to Joe H
Quote:::"Just because it flows 400cfm doesn't mean its going to work with your engine"

Just a comment to say that Mikes cylinder head is not just a full all out race head that only flows 400 CFM.
It could be used in different applications ,that's all.

The head does not start out flowing 400 CFM.
The ports are all small from the foundry.

Yes ,small enough for a street engine.

So basically what I am saying with just cleaning up from casting, it will not flow that great.

If you want his cylinder heads to flow close to 400 CFM ...you have to upgrade.
The starting point from as casted head is really small port volume. Small CFM numbers.
Does that make any sense?

Hank

John, didn't mean to bad mouth anyones heads, its great that you can start with a smaller head and make it what you want, its just we ran into this type of problem on our Pontiacs a few years back when the aftermarket aluminum heads came out. They started out way to big and really made a lot of stock type engines run really bad. The second optional came with smaller chambers and ports which worked much better for the average street racer type car. Now there are three or four different manufactorers of heads for the Pontiac, so the quality and performance has gone up. Joe

Interesting thought, the LS1 heads use 4 head bolt per cylinder like the inline. Wonder if anyone has a LS 1 head gasket around to check the bolt spacing ...

Need someone with pattern exerience to chime in here to enlighten us what it would take to add 2 clyinders into an existing casting box.....

Ok. There's no market enough to Kirby Alum Heads.
But there are still some people who want to buy it.
We all know that there's no more so much Chevy 6 engines arround the world, but my point is:

IF Kirby has already spend tons of dollars to do the alum head, he had all the matrices and stuff to do it, WHY the hell didn't he do some by special orders?

All of us know that these pieces are special.

What I can't undestand is: Why he simply stopped to do them?

His math doesn't make sense for me. For exemple: As I can see the are two people, me is one of, that want to buy the head. If he spend so much money to develop this, why do not take this cash back?

What kinda math patterns he follows?

One of Mikes concerns is that everyone might be going to retrofit the new Trailblazer engine into their hot rods.
A lot of people are thinking that it is the cats meow!
You can make simular HP & torque numbers w/our old inline sixes.
Douglas says those 250 & 292 Chevy's are making 800 HP for the street & up to close to 1300-1400 HP on race cars.
If you guys look at those Brazlian Chevy inline 250's & 292's.
Look at how much power they make w/the stock cast iron head.
They run small turbos there.
Master Power does not make big turbos like they do here in the US.

Another couple of cents thrown. :-)

As I understand it; the molds need uprgrading to make any new castings and that won't be done till the "money's in the bank" etc.

All this dailogue is just 'going in circles'.

Someone start a poll & see how many are ready to put the $5,000 "into the pot".

If 20+ stand up, then there's something to discuss.

the target price for the 240/300 head is expected to be under 2K and looks like it will be met (no real demand for this one either), maybe when you all get some hard numbers, you'll be able to buy two for 5K

The Ford head (or It's builder) has nothing to do with our possible dealings with Mike Kirby or a Chevrolet engine.

Why are you back here waisting our time??

john, i feel that inline300 is simply trying to show us that there are possibly other options out there. for instance edelbrock makes chevy (big and little) and many variations, olds, pontiac, ford and i'm sure many others. who is to say the maker of the ford head can't also make a chevy? tom

JHM


Its still apparent you can't see past your own nose. It has everything to do with it. So much for letting by gones, be by gones.


The company building the ford head is an independant company, as I would expect, I was simply showing you some parallels and try to offer everyone another possibility, and oddly, do the same thing you were trying to do, put everything into perspective.


I kept my conversations with you level headed and respectful...I appreciate your returning the favor.


Have a nice day.


T6

Im gonna throw this out there.

Im fully aware of the hair up your ass theory, I was just throwing this out there for the dreamers, who knows, maybe one possess a deep pocket. So don't feel I was trying to overshadow what you were saying, as I totally agree.

I wasn't going to step back into this topic BUT as I see it WE DON"T Need to get into a Bashing OR
Pi**ing contest. And IF it's going to turn into
THAT I WILL CLOSE This Topic Plain and simple!!!!

inline has his points, NORE did he say the guy casting is a Ford,mopar,OR a chevy guy. Just simply a guy casting the ford Head.
Maybe this guy isn't doing anything BUT casting.
Then this Leaves WHO????? is doing the machine work.
AND IF this Being the case MAYBE You all should look into it More!! then maybe approach Mike On the Machine work????

InStead of trying to bite one anothers Heads OFF
NO PUN
Inline300 can you get in touch(willing to) with who ever the guy is doing the ford head castings??
Email me if you can Thank you.

Does the $2K for the Ford head include machine work, valves etc or just a bare casting?

For The Most Part a Lump ported Is More Then what
Any daily driver will EVER need.
And some other food for thought. Put the head on
the motor Leave out The crank and Piston. and You
will see even another Issue WHICH is Our small Bore. For REAL hp a 4in bore is The Big gain Not just the head issues we have. BUT doing a 4in bore
On Our L6 chevy blocks is Not Very Good for a daily driver.

Larry,

Can a 4" bore be achieved in the 250 block with good wall rigidity for everyday use, without cementing the cooling passages, if the cylinder wall castings are well centered, not having drifted during the block casting process? One of the other Chevy boards mentioned a minumum wall thickness of 0.250" on the two thrust side of the bore. An ultrasonic meter could be used to selectively screen the best blocks for maximum wall thickness.

The 4" bore would also all the use of one of the Chevy 327 pistons (not the OEM STD) with a 6" connecting rod.

The biggest problem with the 4in bore is the block Running Hotter along with thin walls Just really doesn't make for a good daily driver.In my personal oppion. As to how much hotter it would run That i don't know. But as for testing the Block Yes that i'm sure could do to Hope for the best block to bore that much. which would let you
use maybe just about any v8 piston. But if i do remember right the 327 is the better choice.

I measured the head bolt spacing on LS1 heads as compared to our 194-292,& from cylinder to cylinder(front to back), there exact, bad news is they are about 1/2 inch off top of the block to the lower part of the block.

I think they (the LS1's) have the same bolt spacing as Small block Fords, & inline 300 six Fords.

again larry you have hit the nail on the head. the bore is too small. the only way to get around that is to install sleaves. but at a $100 a hole i dont see many lined up to do that.

now i will let the cat out of the bag. if you want a cheap 12 port head. you take a intreagel head mill the junk off of the side of it make a mounting plate and intake and exhaust headers. you can make a cliffered of offy work on it. tom langdon and i talked about it at carlisle.but that head would cost between 1000 to 1500.

The only real draw back i see to useing that head
is that they were more prone to cracking when over heated then The Non intreagel heads.
It is also to my understanding that,That Head
had a mild lump to the Port? I don't know for sure
Because i never cut one up. To see if this was true or not.
And the other question i guess would be Just how
small Or big are Those ports & how well would they even flow. compaired to a Non intreagel head
with a Lump port.
Also That head was ment for all the emission, and
Not for any type of performance.That 1000-1500
Is that for Out the door Bolt-on?? Or just to
have it cut up and ready for reworking??

the 1500 would be ready to bolt on. most of the cracking i have found in them would be removed with the milling. tom though they would flow good.and they would be a true 12 port.

Do you know if anyone Has flow tested this Head In stock trim ,Or in stock trim with bigger valves? Even thought you can only do a part port
job.(just the Bowl area) Just woundering.

no i dont know of any one. i do have 2 heads i plan to mill and have a look inside the runners.

well let us know what you see/find. Or send some pics.

I'm not interested in the "modern" stuff but someone should contact Joe Fontana in Gardena Ca. He has remade the Skinner 12 port for the 302 GMC. A Clevor (Combo Cleveland/Windsor) all aluminum engine and looking do do another aluminum Ford V-8.
Plus he has beem making the Fontana 4 midget engine for many years. It's based on the 153 Chevy II engine with a Duggan style 8 port head. He has perfected this head over the years with many improvements. Making into a 6 may be easy for him. He is now in his 80's but still going strong. I was just in his new shop. Good Luck...J.D.

Hi Guys! Very interesting post!

Just wanted to add a few comments, and set a few issues straight, if you don't mind.

I own Custom Design Performance, and have been building engines & heads for Leo Santucci for quite a few years. And I now drive his new ride, his '54 Studebaker. And as most of you know, we have had a bad year performance wise.

This engine combo, is NOT for everyone. There are way too many man hours involved in building this head and block combo, as you can see.
http://www.customdesignperformance.com/leo/leo.html
But this is what Leo wants, and we have alot of fun helping him.

We should have easily been in the 9's this year, w/ the new car, and the new head we did. But, we had some gremlins. That's Drag Racing! After about six different days at the track, fighting all the way, we found out we had a problem w/ our Brand NEW Electomotive Ignition System. Electronics are Great when they work, but sure can be a problem when they don't. I know you're all saying, why did it take that long too figure out? It was a Brand NEW System, and the last thing we thought would be the problem. We kept thinking it was something w/ the mechanical fuel injection system. But we were wrong!

Unfortunately, it was too late in the season for us to get everything figured out. It has been hard on both of us, having run 10.0's at almost 140mph, w/ the small turbo, and a junk converter, to not be able to get down the track at some points.

The engine mechanically has been performing great! We have NOT had any head gasket sealing issues, or deck surface problems, or head issues, or block isues at all! This is great news since I am almost all finished w/ the new block, w/ better piston & rod combo.

We will be at the Track first thing next year, w/ alot of new parts, and alot of new knowledge, and hopefully, many well into the 9's runs. We will keep you all informed, and good luck w/ all YOUR projects.

Ken
www.CustomDesignPerformance.com

Ken nice work, how light is Leo's Car? If you know offhand. Jack and Harrys 37 runs close to the same times and in the 140 range also.

RevOd!!

Do you have more pictures of this car??

http://www.inliners.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000879;p=1#000007

RevOD,

I thought it was around 2600 lbs.

Ken

p.s. Awesome looking car!

Yeah im pretty sure thats much much lighter then their lol....

Yeah im pretty sure thats much much lighter then their lol....

Guys:

I know I'm very late to this post but here's another idea that might be worth investigating. Just for "grins", you might look at Ryan Falconer's web site, specifically regarding the incredible V12 he produces. Using one of these (cross flow) heads should produce some really good flow numbers.

A couple of interesting points:

1) The cylinder spacing of his V12 is the same as the SBC (at 4.40" if I remember correctly) and I believe that is the same as the 230/292 six so I'm guessing things will generally "align".

2) I'm assuming you would want to use the passenger side head. Like the SBC, the head uses a 5-bolt patern so much of the same block work would be required as building and using a composite head from V8 castings.

3) I'm not sure but the intake/exhaust valve order may be different (front to back) so the cam selection might be a real challenge - probably would be a VERY custom item.

4) It appears to me that the individual port FI for the V12 is a 3-part casting (left intake, right intake, and valley cover?) so I'm guessing that the appropriate side of the intake could be used without requiring a bunch of additional fabrication. The exhaust side would need to be a custom piece and I'm not sure what you'd do about ignition - perhaps a coil-per-cylinder setup?

From reading Leo's book (specifically regarding his experience with composit heads), there is no doubt that there is considerable work involved to both build the head, and then mate it to the inline six block. I have no idea how expensive one of Falconer's V12 heads would be or if he would even part with one. But its an incredible piece and would at least eliminate one major part of the fabrication. Anyway, just something to look at and perhaps think about. If I could lay my hands on one of Mike Kirbey's heads, that would probably be the best bet ...