I am starting a new thread here on our 235/261 stroker. There have been several comments on different threads asking about the series. So, here it is: Doc Frohmader has posted the first of his series on how to stroke a 235 and a 261. go to
www.webrodder.com to see them. I feel lucky to have a small part in it, and it has been fun to see it come together. We are a long way into it, but he is intentionally spacing the series so we dont get into a time issue if something goes south. And we have already had a couple glitches in the crank grinding - see installment 3 and you can read about how my 235 crank went. It all worked out, but we all learnaed something.
So follow along as he shows some other tricks to get otherwise worn out 235's and 261's back on the road. its cool
6inarow,
Thanks for staring the new thread, but don't give up on the 235 cylinder head topic. Will you be flow testing the head, before and after any porting or valve modifications? I have never seen a good report on such, or how the 235-261 heads compare to the 250-292 heads or, even more interesting, to the "Wayne" 12-port head.
We hope to flow test both heads. The idea is to keep it to a minimum on cash. Frohmader thinks these are expensive enough to build, so he wants to show things the average guy can do at home to help get a bit of real horsepower and then document it and show how it turned out. Might wind up with egg on our face, but I'd be willing to bet they surprise a few people.
Its pretty cool to see how all this work happens before the article hits the web page.
Very Nice. Any guesstimate on the date for the next installment? A pure SWAG would be fine.
Thanks
Next installment looks to be in a couple weeks. For the 235 all the crank stuff done and the block is being bored right now. We have the prototype balancer and the new pistons there. For the 261, the crank will be a bit different and it is being ground right now. All of the block work is done on both engines with the exception of the 1 piece rear main and that is on the shelf for Thurdsay. Frohmader may have another installment or 2 ready before all this is completed though.
So a SWAG is 2 weeks..... Should I keep you posted on the board like this?
Well, I see Frohmader made a liar out of me. He just posted the crank article for my 235. You get to see the goof we had too.
I know he has some other stuff ready to post, but we are working on the rear main, the boring and the cylinder heads as we speak. so I dont know what is next - stay tuned!!
Offset grinding of the crank removes the hardened bearing surface (at least from one side). Was the crank treated to reharden the bearing journals?
Just read all four articles. Outstanding information. Well written.
Jason, here is the response I got regarding the crank question:
Hardening is rarely done on cranks meant for the street. In the
case where the cranks are cast, they are made from a hardenable cast
type material and the metal is pretty much the same all the way
through. In forged cranks there were some that were hardened but these
were generally engines meant for abuse, such as trucks or hi-po. You
will see some diesel cranks hardened, as well as those destined for
nitrous or blowers - all for the same reason. In these engines the
cylinder pressures developed (big explosions) are high enough where
surface treatment is considered warranted.
It does not appear from the traces normally left behind that the
Stovebolt cranks were hardened.
My crank grinder does a LOT of these for everything from street uses
to racing and has never had a problem with a crank based on surface
hardness. He does check the Rockwell hardness on the stroked cranks to
make sure there are no soft anomalies that could create problems, though.
I'd suggest that if someone is not convinced by this that they get
the hardening done for peace of mind. It certainly can't hurt and I
know some grinders who regularly harden (nitride) cranks for this reason.
Wait until they hit the dyno
How can you tell if a crank has been hardened?
I have one Reo six which has very distinctive blueing around each it's jornals; I assume that this is evidence of the induction hardening process?
From what Frohmader's crank guy said today, the blueing is indicative of the hardening process used for that crank.
Yeah Jason, I got quite and education in this crank grinding stuff. Evidently there are several ways to harden cranks depending on how the cranks are made.
We had 2 crank grinders do the cranks for this project. Mention this "offset grind" stuff and they go crazy with opinions. It boils down to 2 options: full cheeks and partials. The last article showed my 235 crank - I had no problem with not having full 360 degree cheeks. Doc's 261 will have them so everyone can see both options.
When they looked into the REO crank, it came back that the blueing was how those cranks were hardened. But there are multiple ways to do it. pm me and I can give you both crank guys if you want the details - or better yet - follow along and you can see both shops referenced in the articles. Not sure when the 261 crank article will be posted, however.
Stay tuned.
Hi 6inarow
Great articles on two cool projects. Are these destined for paper publication at some point?
regards,
stock49
I believe the articles are available for purchase. Maybe they need to go into 12PN
Look for another article this week. It should be on the 1 piece rear main seal
Schmanski/Frohmader Inline Part 6,Rear Main Seal is now posted om webrodder. I personally am getting an advanced education from this series.
Read,reread and read again.
Any Idea when the next install will be? I read 5 about the 'new' rear main. Sounds like a heck of an idea. Is the next one the welded (for reduced rod side clearance) crank?
I don't see part 6. Only goes to part 5.
We have several articles almost ready. Frohmader has been m.i.a. for the past 6 weeks or so. When he gets back, the next couple installments will be ready to go shortly. I know the other crank article is one of them. We have still been working on both projects, but want to be doubly sure everything is right before they are published.
I appreciate the effort. Please don't misunderstand and think I was complaining. I was just wondering what was next, and when it might be out.
I can definetly appreciate the desire to get it right, thank you.
Oh, Nexxussian, it did not come across as complaining at all. I think its great that there is ANY interest in this sort of thing. I have thought about this stroker stuff for quite a while and it wasn't until Frohmader approached me that I found anyone who had the desire to see it through. As I have said, it might be a collosial failure of the grandest proportion - but it might not be either. Either way, I am going to have a stroked 235 with some trick features. What they hey - its been fun so far
6inarow,
I'm also really looking forward to the rest of the series, as I have a 261 in my garage that is begging me to rebuild it as a stroker.
Well, I have an ulterior motive. My dad used to have a '53 Chevy Bellair Hardtop Convertible (Sports Coupe??). I am trying to come up with one on the cheap for him (he doesn't know, so lets keep it a secret). I expect whatever I find for a car will have a bad engine, so I want to put the best torqy inline in it, that looks original (excepting the speed parts) that I can afford (261 with extra stroke sounds like the ticket). We have a small case 700R4 and all the HD stuff to go in it already. I have 2 8" Fords and 1 8.8 Ford that might work for open drive (I'll have to measure somehow) I haven't gotten the other projects I have far enough along that I can even consider getting the car now, but I have always tried to gather parts ahead of time, I always figured it cost less that way (cause then you aren't in a hurry).
Nexxussian, reagrding the engine, we are trying to accomplish 2 things with this stroker. We want to keep the cash to a minimum as these things get way too expensive anyhow. Some have already said that this stroker is too expensive - and we won't fight that battle. Yep, its gonna cost you more than a 350. But everything on this engine costs more - its inherent on the engine, not the process. The other thing we want to do is keep the excess parts down to a minumum. Nothing worse than having to buy a complete engine because you need an oil pan. We hope to use as many cheap off the shelf parts as possible. For fun we are also going to show some really cool special parts too - some parts aren't so cheap, but they are cool (for instance the 2 groove balancer - it aint cheap, but its the best balancer out there). So, it boils down to being another option for the 235/261. I hope it works. email me or p.m. me if you have any specific questions. I'll try to answer them or forward them to Frohmader.
No hurry, right now I don't know what it is that I don't know.
Thank you very much, hope I will have intelligent and articulate questions when the time comes.
#6 installment is on Webrodder (seach stoveoblt stroker and go to the second page of results). I just read it. Probably been there a month or more, but I just found it. Excellent read. Lots of info and the details are helpfull. Thank you for writing it 6inarow.
Doc Frohmader did it all.
Well, thanks to him then.
Just saw installment 7 and 8 of the Stovebolt Stroker series over at Webrodder. More of Doc's usual quality work.
I am enjoying reading this seies and learning some excellent info about rebuilding the 235 applicable to other sixes as well. I just wish webrodder offered a print version to download this series.
Well its how Frohmader earns a living, so I dont blame him for charging. I wish he had a little cooperation and it might have made it in the 12 port news.
Bottom end of the 235 is coming soon. I'm working on the head as we speak.
Okay. Well that's fine to. But,I must have missed a link to purchasing articles off of Webrodder.
I figured on buying a copy of the series when it is finished. Or am I supposed to buy them as he goes?
Hi Nex - I dont know the answer to that question. The long and the short of it, is that is how Frohmader gets paid - sales of articles. In the past, he has been ripped off by particular groups by unauthorized photocopy of his material. By the time it gets through the legal channes, he has nothing to show for his efforts.
We talked over the weekend, and I am still in favor if binding all the articles in a series and selling it as a book. There are about 100 pages done so far with about 200 to go. I am going to do my best to have him include his info on the Pontiac 6 build up he did and maybe his 292 series. Maybe its a good idea, maybe its not - just thinking outloud here. I'm sure if we could get 50 or 75 people to lay out the $50 or so it would take to buy one, he would do it.
But as a group I doent want to be associated with ripping him off as has happened in the past.
So, Inliners, how about it?? Is there any interest in committing to a book for this? I'd pay $50 in advance to get it. Anyone else? Comments? Moderators, should this be in Bench racing? Repost if necessary.
I think that's fair, When do we need to send the $$, where?
I'll just keep tabs here and see who is interested. I'll keep Frohmader posted and if there is enough interest, I'm sure he will do it.
Looks like there are 3 so far. Come on Inliners, step up to the plate and commit.
Tom,
I would definitely be in for the 235-261 information in book form. I need it to add to my collection of Chevy six "How-to" articles and books going back to 1949, and to prepare for my future 261 builds. The Webrodder series has gome great information and is well-prepared. I'm really not interested in spending any money on material about Pontiac 6 or 292 builds, however, but count me in. Are you or Frohmader coming to the Inliners' convention in Iowa this June? It would be great to meet you.
I'll spring for it too.With the cost of lithography(pics), $50 or + seems fair. And afterall, there's a lot of research done for us too. that's a big cost saver in itself.
Hoyt, I'd like to go to the midwest inliners - its my birthday weekend. If I get this stupid car together I will plan on going.
I'm not really worth meeting.
Originally posted by 6inarow I.I. #1475:
I'm not really worth meeting.
Tom, I'd still like to meet you though
Count me in. I"ve already bought each article online. I'd pay for the book.
maybe I can get you a credit.
Don't worry about it. It's for a noble cause!
I haven't been able to get on the webrodder site from the link on the 1st post. I have 1-5 and am wanting to get the next 2. Any suggestions???
I would definitely buy one.
The webrodder site still isn't working. Is it just me?
Opens up just fine for me.
Well, we are still at it. We are taking several heads - we dont know how many yet - and putting them on a flow bench to see what the stockers will do and then charting all the info. Hopefully we will be able to show what the common heads flow at various predeterminded spots. Then we are goin to see what common head mods will do to to the heads. what we will attempt to do is point out the easy mods that will help the engine breathe and show where common mistakes are made. then we can pick the cam and carb and ignition and be on our way.
We are a couple weeks from having the flow info. Stay tunded, I will keep you updated. thanks for the support from the inliners
Always looking forward to new article additions to the series.I still think you should print a guideline manual someday.
Hi Drew - a book will likely be printed - check out the previous posts - page 5 and 6. It will ahve all the series articles in it and then hopefully some others of interest for the 235/261
Tom, count me in!
I probable won't be stroking my 235 but there is so much other useful info that this would be a must have for the home builder. I really like the rear seal idea. It could be used on the engine reguardless of how much or how little a guy plans on building up the motor.
Tom,
Looking forward to the head flow test results. If I use the methods that we use at work for flow predictions, I come up with an intake flow of 147 SCFM at 0.400" of valve lift and 156 SCFM at 0.500" of lift. A well-ported head should increase these flows to 167 and 178 SCFM, respectively. The Wayne 12 port head should give 260 SCFM at 0.500" of lift.
I don't have a prediction for the exhaust side yet, as the effect of the shrouding is hard to predict with the SAE pressure loss curves. I'll try to have something shortly.
Also looking forward to the "book" on Webrodder series. I am committed to buying one.
Hey Hoyt, thanks for the info. email me - I have some questions as to how you did this, and on what head etc.
Tom
I bought a copy of #1 to see what the info was like. Certainly good historical info and good detail. Very useful for someone who grew up in the sports car world-far removed from the low rpm-hi torque Stovebolt engines. I just got my round tuit to start on a high pressure '56 235 for a 53 P/U, so when will the complete publication be on the market? I can sign up for a copy if it hits the market soon enough. Or do I need to buy all the individual documents and assemble my own book?
Zeke,Thanks for that article update link.
I apologize greatly if my post upset you. That was not my intention. I simply thought people would appreciate an update on where things are with this article series that many are enjoying.
I truly apologize and by no means intended or intend to stir anything up by posting the link.
Original Message -----
From: "EDITOR" <editor@webrodder.com>
To: "Tom Schmanski" <tomski@brookings.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 9:31 AM
Subject: 235
> Tom:
> Right now I am STILL waiting for the rods to be completed. I have
> the crank back and plan to try to get some assembly done before I have
> to leave. The block is still empty. For the next while I can install
> the cam bearings and cam, I can install the crank, and then when the
> rods get done I can balance and assemble the rods/pistons. It's going
> to be a while.
>
> Doc
>
Maybe someone will post a link to this thread on Webrodder. Frohmader might remember what he told me in December
It looks like Frohmader took my post off his website.
Here it is:
On December 5th you received a UPS package containing HEI, coil, cam bearings, oil pump, oil filter for full flow conversion, main bearings, BHJ balancer, 8 oz Chevy engine Oil assembly, lifters, pushrods. here is the UPS delivery confirmation:
Tracking Number: 1Z FV8 745 03 2258 804 6
Type: Package
Status: Delivered
Delivered On: 12/05/2007
1:18 P.M.
Delivered To: BELLE FOURCHE, SD, US
Service: GROUND
emails on Wed April 16 say you evidently have yet to find this package.
On December 7th I shipped a cam from Delta Camshafts, but dont have the UPS info. I think I can find it, but probably not.
On February 1 Danese Dykes sent another cam to you, but I dont have that UPS info, I am sure as detailed as she is, I could get it.
In Feb 1 I delivered a newly rebuilt head to Jobjens shop and as of last wed you still had not bothered to pick it up. As a matter of fact, Joe Ceretti told me you were there on tuesday and didnt take it. the head is now in Caputa
In late February you called me and informed me that both cams were unsatisfactory and the head would not be acceptable. That was the first time I found out I was responsible for the flow info. I am still OK with that, now that I think I understand what you are looking for with the cylinder head info. A little advace info and confering with Jeff Dyce as he did the head would have prevented a lot of confusion and finger pointing.
Maybe its not all my "fault" as you indicated.
_________________
"I aint goin' off to some fancy college. I'm stayin' right here having fun - as usual."
Tom: Do you have an update on this saga that you would be willing to share with us? This seemed such a promising project, and it seems there's a fair amount of interest here. I just happened upon this recently.
Thanks,
Bryan
Yes Tom, your correct! That is the main emphasis of this project that I am spearheading! It seems as you have mentioned, that the stroker project has kinda' fallen off the table, at least in the cylinder head department! I will gladly pick up the ball,and move forward with it so yall wont be left hangin' without an ending! The steps I am taking will hopefully take a 21st century approach to developing better porting techniques for these early 6's, and open some untapped potential that lays hidden. And of course, these findings will be shared with all Inliners for there personal use and enjoyment!
Thanks for the update, guys!
BTW, here's an interesting website for the 194-292 heads...maybe there's some info here you can use.
http://www.t6racing.org/index.html
Bryan, That is the commercial web site of Larry,Twisted6, who is the moderator of this forum and others here. He is always helpful to Inliners in answering questions and serving the club.
The policy here is that members can't promote their own commercial sites, but another member like me can. I'm also listing CNC-Dude's site because he is having an immediate impact in these forums with his historical knowledge and his willingness to advance the engineering of older inlines.
http://www.marshallsince62.com/
I just realized I slighted Tom. Sorry about that. The webrodder Stovebolt Six that Tom contributed to in knowledge and money I'm guessing, is a great series. It's a shame it wasn't completed. I purchased all the articles on that series because it's a wealth of info and I was concerned that it would disappear off the site. So thanks Tom for your effort too.
I guess my question is, what is it going to take to get it finished? Perhaps some of the readers here may want to contribute time, money, parts, and/or information to the project to see it through to completion. At that point, then perhaps a rough idea of what the total cost involved was(or, what the cost should have been if things had gone smoother). For example, if it ended up costing $15k, that's going to deter a lot of folks, but if it ended up being a lot less than that, that might encourage some folks to proceed, knowing that they could build it for a "reasonable" cost (whatever that number ends up being!)
As far as Larry's website, perhaps his custom head work as shown there may give the 235/261's here some ideas.
Well, that is a question with no simple answer. The short answer is to flow the head and publish the info and let everyone figure out what they want to do with induction and lower end and its done.
The longer answer - the way it should be done and the way I wanted to see it through is as follows:
Once the cylinder head is cut up, flowed, photographed, modified and flowed again and modified again and flowed again etc until its completed, then the bulk of the information is gathered.
Then it is a matter of collecting all of the info in the head and publishing it or posting it so there is enough detail it can be understood by everyone - novice and expert alike.
Then we get this info so cam grinders or our vendors (plug for Patrick Dykes here) can analyze the cams available and if one is available to complement the cylinder head and lower end work that has been chosen. If not, they see about designing new cams. My feeling is that the cam companies probably have profiles that are so close to what we want to do, that it wont be necessary to redesign a cam.
At the same time, the induction systems, ignition, exhaust, pistons manufacturers (I was going to ask my long time friend Nick Arias for help here) etc. should be analyzed in the same manner as the cams above. They can be matched or modified to the head and the cam. Again, I think regarding most of this is, we already know what works best in most circumstances. For example, we tell Nick Arias what we want to do and give him the specs so far and he will come up with the right piston in about 10 minutes.
The whole reason I wanted to get involved is because I have never seen any raw empirical numbers on any of this. I am convinced my 235 can be tweaked a bit here and there to improve its efficinecy. I just dont know where the little improvements can be made, which ones would be cost effective and how much of an improvement (by numbers) can be made. So I decided to spend way too much money that I dont have, and invest time i don't really have to help figure this out. And maybe I could have some fun with it and along the way make a few parts (like my valve cover project) to make the 235 in my 56 just a little different, and get to know people I have never met.
Well, I am happy to say, I have done all 3 so far!!! I believe the key to it is to let Scott do what he has to do. he is smart and will figure it out on his time. Once that is done we can go forward with the rest of it. For decades everyone knows that the cylinder head is the key to the 235 series engines. We just need some raw numbers to see what it really is, and then publish the info correctly.
You have probably already seen this article:
http://midstateantiquestockcarclub.com/stovebolts.htmlMaybe another look at custom pistons may be worth it?
I don't know enough to comment one way or the other, just thought I'd throw this in the mix.
No I have not seen this - I'll look it over too!
I'd like to thank all for their praising of my abiities! I think this type of joint collaberation between fellow enthusiasts is what makes this forum(Inliners) stand out from all others I have tried to particpate in. You wouldn't believe the ridicule I have faced on other forums, because of my wanting to advance or blend early technology with new concepts and thoughts. I think that it will serve many different objectives. First, it will fastforward our efforts by using computer models and software, allowing us to more quickly and effeciently evaluate what we have done, where it would have taken those guys in the 50's, many months to achieve. We can try many different port shapes and contours and repositioning of material in the blink of an eye, and move on to something else more quickly if sufficient gains aren't found, while those guys in 1950 are still thinking and testing on just one subject. Secondly, I think there is much hidden potential in these heads that just hasn't been explored by using 21st century thinking or technology. There are many people who are more than capable to do this same thing I am doing, they just haven't either chosen to, or just aren't interested at all in these "old" engines. So that leaves the chore to the new generation of "pioneers" to take the reins,and use what means they have available to them and move forward. I think that we collectively as a group of serious enthusiasts,can look within ourselves at our own talents and abilities, and what we can contribute to these engines, and not have to depend on big industry to pick up where they fall short in products to us. "Necessity has always been the Mother of invention!" We can make or develop anything we need for these engines ourselves for the simple fact, that nobody knows what "we" want better than us....