Okay a small beef!!!


I have asked the Tech Folks at Edelbrock a number of times why they don't build an aluminum head or any (current) products for inlines engines outside of (ugh) Honda. While they admit there is interest from the public, Vic and the general staff have no such interest in supporting any Inline Engines. Honda is a real popular choice amongst the ricer/sport comcrap community and I guess they feel they can compete amongst that crowd and don't have to go after the "cottage industry" inline companies like Clifford, Offy, Classic Inline, Engine, Egge, Arias, Mr. HotRod6, Spa Turbo etc. and such companies that still supply speed parts for us all.

Seems a shame that American Inliner Motors and their Fans can't get the support of a big player (and Made in the good Old U.S.A. )manufacturer like Vic Edelbrock!

What gives? If you are going to SEMA this year, stop by and ask them WHY.

James

There is no $$ in it. That's the bottom line.

Have to agree with jimmy six. The percentage of active inliners vs V8 interest has to be miniscule and hardly worth the money someone like Edelbrock would have to invest. Our best bet was the reforming of the Wayne company and we all know how that failed. Anyway,I don't mind so much. I have fun doing what I'm doing.

I still have a trick or two im working on that is leaning in that direction.....just wondering about the interest as well!

In a way we are better off with those who do supply us with really quality stuff rather than the one size fits all that some of the big outfits push. If it's not a SBC it's tough. We as GM inliners can only imagine the trials of those who like Mopars, AMCs, Studes, Hudsons, and so many more. The good thing is that we have a place to talk with the others doing the same things. A good sign is the numbers of inlines showing up now every where, well, except with increased demand the prices have gone up. Maybe we do need Vick Jr.

They did make a 2x1 intake for the 216 back in the day. Ask him he wants to unload the patterns for it...

Yep, It would be nice for someone with his stature in the aftermarket with "deep" pockets as well, to take an interest in some of the less normal but still desirable engines we mess with!

That has been looked into, with a One on One with Edelbrock.So i will give you the short version. Bottom line was Yes there maybe?? a market BUT a very slim one at best,For the amount of time it would take to build the molds and tooling for said job
and the machine work there after. The costs would still be to high to just sit on the parts/Heads. And the time it would take to even sell off the First batch Still would not over come the
cost to make them for how little the Market of the older inline
engines.There is no remakes of the blocks What is still floating around at dealers OR GM. And you have to figure these motors are being SCRAPED out by most all Junk yeards by the tons. Because there is VERY FEW yards that even hold on to anything past the 90s. So where does that leave OUR little inlines?, in the melting pile.

I think he(Vic) still has the first piece of wood his dad used for making his first intake(LOL). Most companies like his don't sell off their patterns! I've even spoken to Tay(Offenhauser) about some of his less popular patterns and got the same response. He(Tay)even has some patterns that are missing some main core pieces, and he still wont consider parting with them.

Why did the Duggan head not have longer staying power in the industry than it did? It seemed like the next logical step beyond the "lump" head as far as technology evolving to the next level. Who has those patterns today and stuff? Would there be sufficient demand for them if they reappeared on the scene again....

Mike Kirby
redid the 12 port and had to sit on pretty much a pallet full of heads for sometime. But still never got back all he put into those. Even though he did rework them They still are in need of a good healthy tune up.

And I really HATE to say this But most that are interested in the heads It still is only a Interest another words JUST tire kickers. And 90 percent of this is really due to the COST
and the way the economy. is today No body in there right mind would even take a HIGH risk making a new production of a head for OUR L6.

Even when this topic came up before. I went ahead and Spoke with
Mike Kirby on this matter and What would it take to do another
run on His head. and his comment was The cost just wasn't or wouldn't be worth it. Is the bottom line.And if I recall he also
said the molds really should be redone.?? Don't quote me on that.
it.

Since they have the patterns/molds allready, and they were paid for and then some years ago, there really isn't any overhead for them to dust it off and start pouring some metal.
The only cost to them to start repoping there own intake is in the time and materials to pour/machine the intakes.

I think more than anything its a numbers game! I know for a fact that Offenhauser wont make a run of their V8-60 Flathead heads until they get over 80 sets spoken for. A good friend of mine that manufactures and sells a V8-60 powered motorcycle,is extremely close and tight with Vic Edelbrock,and Vic has even stayed at my friends house on several occassions for business related travels, told my friend that he wouldn't even offer the V8-60 head to him for less than 250 sets. Vic told him that the last time they made a run of those heads was in 1960 or 61. So,I suspect that have that same mind set even for smaller stuff like intakes and valve covers....you'd think they would try to supply the market as there is sufficient demand for it!

New or old, the inline isn't the SBC. If you are a commoner with no access to a machine shop you have to learn to take what you can get.

Fact is that so far I have seen very little quality for the money in this area of engines. The offy intakes are extremely over priced and are not made that well anyway. If you have ever tried to polish one you will know what I mean. You can't tell me that a chunk of aluminum that is half the size/weight of their normal V8 intakes can cost more to produce and result in a equal if not higher price than the V8 intakes.

I've also been discouraged by the lack of finishing work that goes into many still available products. For instance, both Offy and langdon do not polish between the fins of their valve covers/side covers, etc. I belive that the only reason Langdon doesn't polish between them is because offy doesn't. I think he would if they would. It's a small detail, but if they aren't polished your only option is to paint between them or let the dirt and grime collect in the porous surfaces and look like hell.

They've all got us against the wall. They all know it. There is little to no competition. We're a small market of fish in a barrel. We have also been groomed to the idea that I6 parts are expected to be expensive and that give a further advantage. If everybody wants cheap/better custom parts so bad, stop spending money with these companies and start spending it on machining equipment so you can do it better for cheaper yourself.

These molds are so Old it's not funny,And after many pours If the molds are not kept-up The looks and the FIT now become a problem, Each pour slowly eats away at the molds SO again this effects the Looks and the FIT.Also depeding how or what the molds are made from they are only ment to make so many casting.
They do not last for ever like some may think.

So if your after Quality,FIT,and CHERRY Looks.Then step-up like trump said BUY the machining equipment an Learn to do it yourself. IF not then don't cry over the prices cause it won't make the cost come down.And for the most part Nobody cares about quality like you do.They just want the all mity BUCK.
THAT's just the Bottom line. So if you don't like it Don't Buy IT.

This is a case where supply would create demand. More guys would run inlines, and other "odd balls" if equipment was available. We need Eddie Edmunds and all of his old patterns. We also need a new book applying post '54 parts and technology to the older Chevy and GMC engines. Leo type books for Hudson, Dodge, Stude, Ford, etc. Step right up!

Ok....I'll do it! Start makin' a list of pieces you want made, and scrounge thru your shops and garages for parts to copy and reverse engineer(nondestructive) that you can turn loose of for me to develop blueprints and drawings from, and we'll see where that leads us! Who's first.....

A two piece aluminum timing cover for 250-292. Easy cam change type.

Do you have an original tin TC you could send me!

"A two piece aluminum timing cover for 250-292. Easy cam change type."

Beater of the Pack, such thing already exists.

In Argentina and in Brasil folks do a lot of stuff for the 250 Chevy engine.

I might want to take a look at that:

http://www.josephcompeticion.com.ar/josephome.htm

or the 3 parts timing cover in Brasil's Limit Performance:

http://www.limitperformance.com.br/lim00061.htm

Some great manifolds here:

http://www.engineracing.com.br/pecasnacionais.html

There are loads of good people out there that still developing good stuff for our beloved L6. A terrific engine buider and friend of mine does alum bellhousings, but he said it's becoming really hard to run them because nobody wants to afford. Kind the same situation as Kirby's.

CNC-Dude
I have one already cleaned up I hope to get if off to you monday.

If you have a spare 250 & 292 side cover for each, toss them in there also, i'll make sure they get returned to you! Thanks...

What are the prices in US dollars for those parts?




MBHD

I was wondering that too, I cant read Portugese....

That is some good looking stuff! The timing gear set looks tough. Why aren't these parts available here? I cant believe someone can't make a buck importing them. There are Isky and Crower boxes too, what's up? What are some prices? Thanks, Tom

Seiscanecos74, thank you for the links, that is very nice, the timing covers look good, I REALY like the adjustable timing set , manifolds are nice too.

You're welcome about the links. I'm glad you folks liked it.

The currency it's something like: 1.00(US)$ buys 2.00(BR)R$ or so(it might has some changes according to the markets floatation but basically is that. But the argentinian currency I have no idea, I'm sorry. So basically a part that costs R$500.00 its US$250.00. But I don't know about your customs taxes).

The thing is: Argentinian(AR) people start to made these 2 piece alum timing covers and adjustable timing gears some time ago, as the Chevy L6 must be as popular there as in Brasil(BR), and peps in BR took the patterns, made some slight changes, and ran the casts with their names on it.

Now the interesting part. I think its not that difficult for you to reach those parts as here in the board we have some brazilian peps like Douglas, Edy and Alex(Chevy 250 Opala I believe to be his nick) in and I also believe those guys will be glad to help our L6 US fellows to buy what they want from there. I didn't include myself 'cause unfortunately I'm living in England right now and won't be able to help from this far. And as a last resource you can email them in english and wait to see the answer. I believe they'll do the best of them to reply you. I'm talking about emailing the BR peps 'cause the AR folks sometimes don't even answer us, their neighbours.

Well we do get the stuff here in the US. mrhotrod6 has had them on Ebay. He also had to list it twice.Because everyone was Interested in them (KEY WORD INTERESTED)But NO body wanted to spend the money.YES these parts are of very good QUAILTY ,I have seen them first hand. One of the biggest problems we have is
Keeping them in stock.Because getting the stuff from them seems like it takes for EVER.And then most of the time it is Gone before we ever get it in our hands. Engine copmanys Stuff to me is top of the line when it comes to QUAILTY Compaired to anything
Cast here in the US anymore.And i really hate to say that guys.
BUT it is so sadly TRUE. I have seen better Used parts at Swap
meets compaired to what is NEW here in the US now.

To give you another idea to how quailty is here Cliffords carb
plates now have slotted holes, Because other wise they won't match-up with the holes in thier intakes.And i have a few of the
older clifford intakes which still to this day look better then
what they have to offer now.AND THEY STILL FIT BETTER and have Never had any MODs done to them to make them fit.

but anyway thats just my 2cent gripe an just another reason I
started making my own stuff.

Yeah, we all know about the percentage between real buyers and time wasters but every time I see a Clifford manifold on eBay it has at least 8 bids on it before the auction ends.
We can say that from these bids at least 2 people are interested in such thing. And we all know there's just one winner on the auction. So, what happen to the other(s) bidder(s)? Just wait to the next manifold to pop up at ebay to see if he is gonna get it?

Vic Edelbrock is not the only company we have spoke with about our L6 head. BUT like i said the Bottom line is all about money.
And we as inline guys,( A VERY Small hand full) The Money Market!! is just not THERE for them.And So they have no interest.
This whole head topic came up sometime ago. So why are we back
at it once again?? really another DEAD topic.

You just can't beat a dead horse to death He's already Dead.
If one is not wanting to spend over 2000.for a good flowing cast
head that same person is not about to spend well over 4000.for a
Alum head.So Unless someone out there is going to take the time
AND THIER money to put a good HIGH flowing on the market for the
cost of a set of SB heads ( WHICH will never happin I don't think) then that person or persons has more money then they know what to do with and Just mit be crazier then most of US ( lol )


I like many others have seen what the Inline market is like.
VERY SMALL. And it will become smaller yet as the Bone yards
keep crushing everything.

Isn't vintage inline making heads for inlines (Ford, supposedly Chev on the way)? I thought Sissel had an ALUMINUM 12 Port head for the Chev???

How bitchin would that be, not only an inline, but ally 12 port to boot (yeah, Algon or Crager injection too, but I'd 'settle' for Hilborn, even W/ the electronic conversion ).

Hmm, was at their site (sisselautomotive.com IIRC) less than a year ago, now I can't get it to come up, hope they didn't close

The latest company mentioned to consider building a new high performance aluminum cylinder head for the GM 194/230/250/292 inline 6 was Classic Inlines.

http://www.classicinlines.com/

I last spoke with them about 6 months ago, when they stated a prototype head for the GM inline 6 was about a year away. The sales were less than expected to date for their new aluminum cylinder head for the Ford Inline 6 small block, 144/170/200/221/250 cid engine.

I'm not a realist, I'm an Inliner! I'll never be able to afford a $4000 head but I'd like to have access to the things I can pay for. I bid on the last one of those timing covers I saw on eBay and didn't win. It came at a bad time for my meager funds but I've been waiting for more. I realize that when we buy a part we are paying for much more than the part it's self. I sell $ .25 items for $25 all day at work and understand R&D, supply, demand, production, packaging, labor, shipping, handling, wholesale, retail, floor space, profit, etc. But I also understand when things are made to be unavailable it drives the price up. With the exception of lump port heads, I can't remember the last piece of inline speed equipment that I saw go unbid on on eBay and most went for more than a fair price. I guess it's the price we pay to be different. I just can't afford to be that different!

Ah yes, 'Classic' not 'vintage' (DOH), guess that explains why I didn't find that when searching.

Thank you

How about Sissel? Anyone heard from them recently? I remember them having a web site, I just don't seem to find it now.

http://www.sissellsautomotive.com/ He is still open.

Thank you Mr. Larry.

Was scarrin' me when I started seaching for those guys (them and Classic, my fault entirely on the 'vintage' deal though Derrr) and didn't find anyone, I thought for a moment we had lost 2 more supporters . What really was baffling me though was I have been to both sites before (don't ya just hate it when you can't find something you KNOW is there?).

Couldn't the Inliners club take on buying up the 12 port stuff? I think with several hundred guys (and gals), we could come up with the cash needed to buy the patterns and cast up a supply of them. I would think there's enough of us wanting high performance parts for our inline engines we could accomplish it at a lesser cost than the commercial ventures that have lately attempted to do it. I'd like to hear how many would be able (or want) to pool our resources to do this.

Here is a guy that sells on eBay. I don't know who actually makes his stuff or if he has any inline parts, but there has to be as much demand for our parts as for Stude, Cad, Olds,...... I recently bought a Stude V8 valley cover for a really good price and the quality is VERY good. It is better than most of the old stuff I have and all of the new stuff. It is marked Vintage Speed. Any way, maybe here is someone who could supply us.

http://motors.search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZrealrodder

His name is Charlie Price. If you go to the HAMB and do a search on Vintage Speed or Charlie Price it will reveal what their experiences are with him and his company/products! I've never dealt with him myself, only saw what they had to say about it.

I just bought a set of Plymouth Flattie 230 Valve covers from him a couple weeks ago and had no troubles.

I was thinking about making a few of these myself. I've got a small (under 10 lbs.) home foundry.

Make sure you put up some pics if you do!

On the Sissel link, what timing cover is that on the red engine?

http://www.sissellsautomotive.com/

Do you have a direct link or state what to click on to get to the red engine.

MBHD

Hank, I think this will work.

http://www.sissellsautomotive.com/images/streetmotor2_2.jpg

Make sure you post some pics if you decide to cast your own!

I'll probably melt the wasted pistons from my old flattie to make them. I'm gonna be puttering around the garage tomorrow and see what it will take......Yes, I promise pictures.

What about the Inliners members who would want to do a crossflow head for the Ford 300? Or Mopar or others? Should Inliners take that on too?

Methinks that when it comes time to actually put up the cash involved that "several hundred" would shrink to "a few".

Methinks what hethinks. Besides someone would have to be in charge and actually do something.

I think we have more non PAYING tire kicking members on this board Then there is Paying members who want this type of head.
On this Board.

larry, you do make a good point. tom

Amen to that, but not just here.

OUCH !!! SCRAP

Once Again Off the topic BUT at the sametime on topic.HOW long do non paying CLUB members Keep over stepping Their aloted Posting. I THOUGHT (key word) they were only aloud So many postings.

Just say it!

The whole conversation thread is a Chicken and the Egg reality. There are still many inline engines out there. They will all eventually go to the scrapyard unless they can be made popular choices to put in cars.

The only way they can overcome that is to have a host of cool parts available to them as not too many people (at least here) wants a plane jane stock engine, when you can buy parts for more popular V8s.
So thanks currently to all of these little companies that believe in these engines and keep up the production. I am sorry i called you "Cottage Companies".

Maybe just maybe some big player will take note and realize how many of the Late Chevy or Ford Inliners there are out there and the potential to modify them.

If not so be it. We will find a way to survive!!!

I think I said this on an earlier thread concerning the 12 port head for the later inline; if I were truely interested I would contact Joe Fontana in Gardena Ca. His 8 port midget head was a dirivitive of the Dugan and is 2/3's of one since it was done for the 153 4 cylinder. It's for sure that he has done more port design work on this head than anyone.

He recently cast up a dozen or more of the Skinner 12 ports for the 302 GMC along with injectors and covers and he also casts up the Ford small blocks. He is in this business and if he gets some committments I'm sure he would build some late models.

He does have a website at http://www.fontana-automotive.com With all the work he has done with the 4, I could only imagine what you guys could do with a 6........Good Luck..JD

Contacted Joe at Fontana and seems like a nice guy. he said he only does build up for the GMC 302. He has a set up that makes one into a 380 hp street racer!

Nice, but showed no interest in late Chevy Sixes. Oh well.

Thanks I'm glad someone contacted him with some interest. I have worked witgh him before and had no idea whether he would be receptive to the late 6's.

So what's the price range to get one running (ie all the pieces, not just a bare head)? $5K, maybe $7K?

Not cheap, but 380hp out of a 'street' Jimmy (if it's street, I expect it to run on pump swill).

Or did you ask?

Joe Fontana is "good guy" and knows where horsepower is when producing his 4 and 6 cylinder race motors. Long ago he started using the late "Tom Skinner 12 Port" from right here in South Jersey. Inliner members in this area dream about coming across a Skinner head at a local swap meet. Joe submitted "A Tribute to Tom Skinner" to the May/June 2008 issue of 12PN.

Not knockin Joe, or anybody else, just curious if anyone knew what the full meal deal cost?

5-7 K is speculation on my part, but appears to be what a Wayne head and all the stuff it takes to make it go costs. Not figuring that Joe can afford to undercut himself, soooo, same, higher, lower, dunno it's why I ask.

And if anyone thinks I'm puting James down when I ask if he asked, I'm not, I've been on the phone before and found that somone didn't have anything that was going to work for me and forgot to ask what the stuff they had went for (in case I run into someone that would like to know). So been there, done that, but if you did ask, let us know what he said, please.

You are correct, when the dust clears a complete head is about 5-7k depending on the port work and valves, his four bolt conversion mains are $650 and the roller lifters for the GMC are $850 cam cores about $300. As mentioned Joe is a great guy and knows how to make them go fast and I am glad to call him a friend. Speed is never cheap.

Yes and to 'clarify" I exchanged emails is all. I do not want anyone to think that we had a pointed discussion on the phone. I simply asked in my email if outside of the current line up of Midget inline 4s and GMC sixes was there any interest in Late Chevy Sixes.

Would never slight someone as reputable as Joe. Sorry if it came off that way.

James

I was hoping Joe would do something with the late model and I'm sorry he isn't. Without Joe and that original Skinner head my son and I would never have gotten in the Bonneville 200 MPH Club. Others who knew Joe back in the 70's and 80's were very glad I became his partner and brought him back to land speed racing. Just 2 years after we quit running together he used one of his new casting Skinners on gasoline in the Fergusons streamliner. He went in the 200 MPH Club at 255 and the oldest member at a "young" 82. Anyone who knows him cannot believe his energy. He travels the country following his Midget Engines. Tony Stewart drove his corporate car a one time and is still a personal friend of Joes. Joe loves racing of all kinds and I hope to partner up again with him............JD

My misunderstanding, I thought you had him on the phone. idn't figure it was 'pointed' or heated or whatever, just a call like any of us would have made inquiring about the availability of speed parts for our chosen engine/s.