Guy's,
In October my local dyno guy is real slow. So I am going to schedule a Saturday to dyno a 292. Going to test it with a bunch of parts.

Need help with 3 things:
1. Ideas
2. Labor
3. Share the cost of dyno time

Planning to dyno test
multiple heads (small valve, big valves, lumps , ect)
multiple cams ( I have a small selection of streetable cams)
offy and clifford intakes.
Mainly looking to see what type of power gains are had with different parts.

Anybody that wants to donate some money toward dyno time is welcome to get the results that are found. Tom

That sounds like an interesting bunch of tests. Any guess on how much it will cost for the dyno time? I'll send some! Tom

I got all the info confirmation yesterday for the hydraulic roller conversion and set-up for the 292, but that wont give me enough time to get the cam made...

The dyno for the day is 500.00. Sure like to share it with others. I simply want to test a bunch of parts and ideas.

CNC, roller cams sound fun too. Tom

I'm interested. Will pay a share.
Al

I'm in for $50. How do you want it?

I also need ideas to test.

Al and Beater,
You are very generous. I will get all the parts lined up and put together a plan on how to test them.

I need a cam to borrow that has appr .550 lift and 230ish duration @ .050 lift. Maybe even upto .600 lift. hydraulic or solid. It will be sent back. Could even be for a 230-250 as we will use a electric fuel pump.

Paypal is easiest, my email to use is telowe2000@yahoo.com
or send to:
Tom Lowe
3063 200th st
Dysart, Iowa 52224

I have never shared dyno time before or dynoed just to test different combo's. It will be fun, we will shoot some video and take lots of notes and pic's. Anyone who wants can shoot me some money and the dyno pulls/combos will be shared. 20.00 would probably be the minimum. Thanks Tom

how much are you looking for from the 235 guys for the info? I'd kick in even though its not my series, I'm sort of curious. Do you have a "curious guys" entry fee???

Let me know a date for sure, to make sure I have some bucks to spare, but I am definitely interested.

I'd really be interested to see how much power could be made with stock valve size, but with lumps and a high lift cam, along with increased carburetion and exhaust - etc. Just to see if decent power can be made without cutting bigger valves. Sounds contradictory, and half assed, but it'd save me money at the moment if I could just bump compression and add flow without cutting valves ( a nail head effect?)

Otherwise, yes, let us know the minimum, and you'll more than likely see a money order from me.

What are you expecting to make from this motor - ball park area hp and tq? And it's naturally aspirated?

Thanks!

-Sam.

You can count me in for $50.00. Intersted in the different power bands for the 2 intakes and the different cams. Can you accept PayPal??

Planning on any exhaust comparisons? Langdons cast vs stock vs tube??

I would like 20.00 to be the minimum. paypal is just fine, email to use is telowe2000@yahoo.com .

I am planning on starting with a stout bottom end. That part is built. Maybe a stock cam too. Will be using long tube headers, because temperature wells will be welded in for testing. Easier to hook up the exhaust , too. Would test Langdons If i had a set with short lead pipes. Who has them to loan? No test wells will be welded into them.

Expect to start at less than 200 hp and keep on growing up to the 300hp level. Maybe more, who knows. Looking to test parts for proven torq and hp combo's.

Tlowe, unfortunately I don't have a penny to my name but I had a thought.

Since you are doing this in a very organized way and recording all results as you go. This may be a good opportunity to write an article and detail out your findings. Maybe it could be used for inliner organizations or you could see if one of the main stream Hot rod or Super Chevy mags would be interested.

Sending $50.00 by snail mail.

Way ahead of ya bro....

Tom:

I'm in for $100. It'll go out in today's mail so it should be to you in a few days. While I'm primarily a big Ford 240/300 fan, I've always appreciated ALL inline engines. So anything we can learn from your dyno test project will be a benefit to all of us, regardless of "brand".

Tom I'm in for $75 but, you gota answer my last email. Just kidding. (sorta) I'd like to see what can be done with more cubes anyway. I'm hot on my 250 build but it will be a very mild one for my little SWB Chevy truck. I have a set of forged dished pistons lying in wait for the Brazilian head and a little pressure. Should be fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Randy S. Hager
Venus, TX

Do you have a head located yet, I have a good source in Brasil for them if you need one....I've got billet hydraulic roller cams available also if that interests you.

WOW hydraulic roller cam, tell me more.........I was thinking about that and was going to do one. Yes, Edy Rodrigues in Brazil is sending me his head from his Omega. I'm only going with TBI on the current engine with a Sealed Power torque cam with less than .500 lift. Looks like I'll be spending more money on a power washer and swimming pool acid to clean my driveway with my current leaker. It's the stock engine from my 1982 pick up. I will save all the GOOD parts for a build to go into a Chevy II Nova Wagon.(don't have BUT will get) This will be a rear turbo configuration as to not alarm the un-expecting V8 person.

Randy S. Hager
Venus, TX

Yeah, since Crane went away, I guess im in the inline roller cam business now. I can provide both the solid and hydraulic billet roller cams for not only the 194-250 and 292's, but the Stovebolts, GMC Jimmy's, Straight 8 Buicks and Pontiacs, and all the Ford inlines from the 170-250's and 300's and virtually any other American inline that has ever been made. I currently am supplying Schneider Cams with billet round lobe blanks for his Ford 240-300 line of cams. So when ever you are ready, just pm me with some specs and i'll get you fixed up.

Thankyou's to:
GabbyP
russk
Randy S. Hager ( I have now returned the email)

This weekend, will go thru my cams and inventory them and list them for you. Also specify which heads will be used.

Aiming to really find a good street engine combo. Nothing race, but nothing lame either. Tom

Your 35.00 money order is in the mail. That's US money order!!
Al

Tom, I just sent $50 by PayPal, I think. Beater

Al and Beater, you are now also included in the great 292 dyno day challenge! I have a few of the local chapter guy's coming over to lend a hand. Man am I going to be busy getting my parts all lined up. Tom

Tom,

I'm in too. Just paypal'd.

I am thinking about lumps, cam, and manifolds so this is perfect timing! It will guide my final assembly plan.

-Tad

$50. sent via paypal., Would like to help with the labor but the commute would be a little long.

Tom, You have more $$$ via paypal.

LG

Heater, Jalopy45 and LarryG,
This is to confirm and thankyou for your generousity.
There are others donating time and efforts either by direct labor or from afar with parts/materials. This is going to be a big hit.
Tonight I'll post up my list of cam choices. Tom

Sent what I could.

Looking forward to the results, hard data being worth it's proverbial weight after all.

Nexxussian,
Thankyou! Believe me it will help.

Here are some more NEEDS:

1. timing sets/gears to install ahead of time on cams for quick swaps
2. Head gaskets, for the multiple head changes

Here are the cams in my stash.

1. Comp cams special grind Hydraulic
113 Lobe seperation
.424 lift Int/Exh
duration 212@.050 Adv 256

2. Clifford 92-3021 Hydraulic
110 lobe seperation
.518 lift Int/Exh
duration 206@ .050 264 Adv

3.Clifford 270H Hydraulic
110 lobe seperation
.524 Int/Exh
Duration 214 @ .050 Adv 270

4.Crower 03241 Hydraulic
112 lobe seperation
.448/.460 Int/Exh
Duration 192/200 @ .050 Adv 248/258

5.Crower 03311 solid lifter
107 lobe seperation
.525/.532 Int/Exh
Duration 238/242 @ .050 Adv 282/287

6. Comp cams 61-662-5 Solid lifter
106 lobe seperation
.591/570 Int/Exh
Duration 242/246 @ .050 Adv 280/284

Heads to be tested:
Baseline stock 1.72Int/1.5 Exh
1.72/1.5 Open port
1.72/1.5 Lump Port
1.84/1.6 open port 70CC
1.84/1.6 lump port 70CC
1.94/1.6 lump port 70CC


That is what I have. Taking suggestions or comments. Tom

How about a small chamber head to see the torque increase!!!

MBHD

What head gasket do you want to use? Do you need timing cover gaskets too? I can check my price at work. I'll bet others can get them cheaper than I can. My O'Riley's discount isn't too hot. Carquest was way better! You're gonna' be swapping heads and cams faster than kiss a duck!

in too,, paypal on the way...

any final date set? So I have a time frame to send my contributin out.

I'm so flippin' excited for this!

-Sam.

Guys:

I've never had a chance to be involved with a dyno session so just ignore the following comments if I'm stating the obvious or I'm just off in left field . . .

First, it appears that the various combinations to be tested will be comprised of induction, cams (and lifters, and such), heads, and exhaust. From what has been written so far, I'm gathering that there will not be any changes done to the rotating assembly or oiling system. But even so, the number of interesting combinations to be tested will be extensive and the dyno cell time will be limited and valuable. So I'm assuming a detailed "script" will be developed to describe each test combination, and in what order each will be tested. The sequence of the test combinations will probably become obvious based on optimizing the various parts changes.

Given that you may have 6 or 8 cams to test, 4 or 5 heads, 3 or 4 exhaust systems, and maybe 4 or 5 induction systems, the total number of combinations could be as many as (say) 800! Of course, not all combination would make sense (i.e. one of the high performance solid or roller cams with a completely stock head would not be a test you'd likely make) or be of interest. But there could easily be 50 or 75 combinations that would of interest and that involves a lot of part swapping work in the dyno cell on test day.

Having each cam preset with the timing gear is a great idea and I'm assuming it would be worth degreeing each cam and clearly marking the proper gear alignment prior to test day.

It might also help to have a front cover with a removable plate to allow the various cams to be changed without having to remove the entire cover. Maybe someone that has such a cover can lend it for the test.

It also seems to make sense to have the various induction systems to be tested as assembled and adjusted as possible so swapping them in the dyno cell will be relatively simple and quick. I don't recall if multiple carb induction will be tested but I know from experience that just adjusting the linkage to get all the carb sync'd can take some time that you'd probably not want to spend during the test day(s).

Another thought is a simple preventative measure. If you can, I'd consider adding a second TDC mark and indicator on the flywheel as a backup to the normal front pointer. Should the front pointer be "distrubed" during the heat of between-test parts changes, it might be nice not to have to re-determine the exact TDC.

Finally, you might consider clearly identifying each component and keying them to each step in the test script. That way, all the components that need to be swapped for the next test combination (step) can be pre-staged and waiting. This also insures that the right parts will go on the test mule when the time comes.

Russ, many of these issues are being addressed currently. This exercise will yield several benefits as an objective. It began as a before and after test for the "lump" head to reveal the gains possible by doing this modification to the Chevy 6's, first with a stock type head with the usual mods people would try to do to these heads if they didn't know what a "lump" head was or were uneducated about how to modify the 6's, then bolt on an equivalent head that had the same mods done to it, but with "lumps" also added to show the huge gain from them over the previous head, now it has blossomed into a dyno session with an assortment of parts swapped. I know its hard to believe, but there are many thousands of hot rodders outside the world of Inliners that have never heard of Leo or his book. So, this will help enthusiasts become more familiar with these engines and how to modify them, and hopefully fuel the interest in them and lead to more interest in them as well. It will also help show some hot street combinations for others to duplicate, with real world data and feedback. All of this will be featured in a "top shelf" national car magazine in the coming issues. So, any details that might be missed here, will be revealed in the magazine article. I am writing the article, and have been working closely with Tom in the past months on some ideas in this area, and it has just grown into the project you see now, but dont think this is just a spur of the moment idea, we have been building up to this point for a while. So stay tuned, it will be both informative and educational to those who have always wanted to see what parts are the most beneficial and practical to use on your 6's for a good street combo.

CNC-Dude, will this article include some typical(?) bent eight charts for comparison?

LG

Another question - what magazine are you planning on this being featured in?

If you don't want to publicly tell, I understand, so you could either pm me, or keep it hush hush until it's published.

-Sam.

Well LG, that is possible. But I have found when you are trying to compare engines that are dissimilar, like a 6 cylinder and an 8 cylinder, it hard for most of them to see the parallel. I think that comparisons between something like the cylinder heads of the 6 and 8 cylinders might be an area that they could relate to, so that is a thought to consider.

Hats off to:
GabbyP, RussK, Finger6 and Winter.

Samwise, there is still plenty of time. Date is still to be determined, but will be late Oct/ early Nov.

I am getting the heads worked up now.

RussK,
You are correct, too many combos to be tested, so this has to be very planned out and structured. There are only so many hours in a day and we have a big task at hand.
There is a two piece timing cover for easing cam swaps and a jig for lifting heads. All heads will have full stock rockers as to make swaps quicker. There are no multiple carb setups , just single 4 bbl's.

It will be CNC's job to put the article together and file out the info.

All contributors will get all documentation that I get and how each setup worked. The real inside scoop. I will also writeup the general feel for the combo's even for non contributors. Nobody will be left out. I do like to share. As said before, just trying to get real #'s to backup performance changes made. Tom

CNC-Dude and all, I'm sure your getting it together. On the chart comparison, I was mainly interested in the torque curves, as that the 6 cylinders strong point.

No more questions, I'll be patient and wait for the results. You gentlemen have a "full plate"

LG

LG, yours and everyones insight is very needful. It can be easy to overlook the obvious, and a broad scope of viewpoints is very helpful to make sure it doesn't just focus on our perspective as we see them. So, keep it up, and feel free to throw suggestions our way.

You have your hands full and I would really like to help, unfortunately my body man working on my 50 hosed me very badly and evrything this year has been pretty much put on hold and I will leave it at that. If I was in the neighborhood I would certainly help.

Being I have been on a Dyno several times, just doing a pull and tweeking can eat time, limiting and optimizing everything as much as possible including what you are going to be testing this setup in, having a full fendered rig will take more time than if the engine area is full exposed, no fenders, no hood certainly no grill. Taking into consideration of what the main specs are of the engine compression wise will dictate what cams are going to work best and this should be the primary focus. My aspect here is looking at a Stock valve vs 1.84/1.6 valve vs same valve 3 port lump & a 6port lump (that I havent heard much about) and all must be the same chamber size or very close other wise this will scew the numbers, this would be interesting to see what gains there are here as most HP comes right from the heads. At the same time picking the best possibly cam to run that would benefit from the compression you will be running. Choosing a closed vs open chamber head will obviously create more power and tourque being you are increasing compression so this would in my opinion would not be worth while unless you are trying to see what the benefits of a particular cam might see with the added compression. Genreal rule of thumb here that I was told for every point of compression increas you multiple 4 by the number of cylinders and this will give a rough estimate of hp gained. Intake choices is another matter, as the Clifford under my understanding has a better top end vs some of the competitotrs, it would also be interesting to see what benefits there are from a multi-carb setup or even a side draft setup would be, although a lot of aftermarket multi-carb setups are for 1 barrels I dont feel these type of intakes are anything to write home about & certainly a 4 barrel would no doubt be better, although even a single 500cfm 2 barrel would probally out perform the 3 singles, I could be wrong. Anyways hope some of these ideas help..OH and what about the use of a copper headgasket vs stock, most of these are reuseable, it may save a few bucks.

I believe I had done searches in the past for any related dynos but found nothing, this would be nice if some others that have dynoed could post there info.

Tom and CNC-Dude:

We are fortunate to have a really bright and tallented group of people on this forum and as members of Inliners - many of these guys have probably forgotten more than I'll ever know. Looks like many of them will be involved in this project in one way or another so I have absolutely no doubt that we all will get some really good information out of the various dyno pulls. Of course you guys have things well in hand and have obviously done a lot of hard thinking and detailed behind-the-sceens work already relating to the various test combinations. Like most of the others, I'm really looking forward to seeing what you finally choose to test (and why), and what results are achieved.

The baseline pulls will be with an established stock type non-lump head. Then a head change with the same type head(same chamber cc's and valve sizes) with lumps installed will be tested next. This will be a more apples to apples comparison, and show the true gains that are available from taking a stock head and what increases are there when you put in lumps, with everything else remaining the same. Then the cam changes and more aggressive head combos will be done afterward. Having an engine dyno as opposed to a chassis dyno will greatly help speed up parts changing hopefully.

Here are some more specs for the number crunchers.

The lower end is built very well. Here is some of the breakdown.
Main studs
Balanced rotating assy
Venolia forged pistons 27CC dish, Zero decked, bore is 3.935
ARP rod bolts
ARP head studs
Fluidamper balancer
Bore plate used for machining
Head gaskets to be used are .041 thick

Final compression with a 70CC head will be 8.8 to 1.

Just a comment,
when switching to a more agressive camshaft I would think you will see a bigger gain also by using a small chamber head,,,,but I do realize that would not be comparing apples to apples.


MBHD

Tom,
I will send my contribution when I get back home, thanks for the suggested minimum it will likely be that due to my budget.
However if you can add some info I will try to contribute in another way, with some computer predictions of what the dyno will show. This is not DesktopDyno or EngineAnalyzer, it is my own homebuilt program fondly named the "WerbyFord Gonkulator" over on the Ford FE Forum, but it does pretty well in predicting dyno tests before they are run - you can see some example predictions on the "Ford FE" forum at

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thr...+my+computer%21



or go on that forum and google "exhaust comparo" or "intake comparo". Intake predictions can have some real surprises but I like to predict in advance, that is part of the fun but helps the learning too. Also it might help offer some ideas for your tests!

A couple questions:
1. Do you know the compression ratio[s] planned? (ok, 8.8cr]
2. Do you know the header dimensions (pri tube diam and lengths, same for collector[s])
3. Do you know the head flow data? If not I can guess from Leo S' book and other info on this forum -

Looking forward to this rare set of dyno tests, it will help me build the 250 and 292 for my own Novas!

Hi Guys,

$25 on its way by PayPal. I'm really excited about the info, sorry I couldn't contribute more.

Dave

Tom.....sent you $50 today via paypal (I hope?), thanks for your past advice, block and crank are now in the machine shop and after that I'll probably have another question or two.......Joe

Chevy2inreno and Joe,
Both came thru fine, Thankyou.
Joe, sorry to hear the motor was not in better shape, just glad you caught it now, later would be much worse.

Duececoupe,
Here is a flow from one of my heads:
.100 61.7cfm
.200 115.6 cfm
.300 171.5 cfm
.400 207.9 cfm
.500 229.1 cfm
.600 242.7 cfm

Headers are 1 5/8 tubing with 37" primary's, 8" long collectors that are 2.5" diameter. Let me know what you find.

I am really busy now getting things/parts all arranged.
Tom

I am interested. Will pay a share. Tom

Tom,

I too am interested in your dyno data and have sent you money via PayPal. I am sure I am one of few who have dynoed a Pontiac OHC 6 and would like to compare info.

Thanks,

Rob

Guy's, thanks for contributing. Sometimes I can't put the paypal or name together with a Inliner Name. So sorry if i do not mention everyone. I am keeping all the emails to send to though. So do not worry.

It will be interesting to see how the 292 will stackup against the Pontiac OHC 6. Hopefully atleast more torq!

Still looking for more thoughts and ideas. Never to many.

A few replies back.
It is really nice to see all the guy's posting for the first time! Wish there was more of that. Please do not be shy!

I believe RussK had asked about a 3 port and a 6 port. I run port dividers on my own engine because of the Multiport EFI and turbo. On this test, the engine will be carbed and naturally aspirated. The divider would probably kill air flow for higher RPM's.

The 2 carbs to be used are both Holley's, one a 390 cfm and the other a 600cfm. Both are vacum secondaries. Tom

Tom:

The 3 vs 6 port question is a good one (and I suspect you're right that a port divider would cause flow restrictions in a N/A engine. However, I can't take credit for asking it.

Regards, Russ

I was just rereading the 1.94 valve discussion. The bit about P.E.S. lumps vs others would be something I'd like to see tested. We could settle something that lingers. I know it would mean another head as well as another intake. We'll probably have to wait till next time for this one. I'd send more $$$.

I'd like to see how a 500 CFM (stock GM SBC 305 TBI)would work.

efi/diy: If they can support that I'm installing that exact TBI onto my 250 build. I'll need help with that one and you are the most experienced with electronics. I'll get the software and hardware from Moates and do the tuning on the fly.

Randy S. Hager
Venus, TX

Hey Beater, I think we could call that one "mythbusters"....hehe!

We certainly will be trying to do some mythbusting that day. It will be interesting. Tom

I hope myths are all you bust! efi-diy's idea is a good one. We made the 270 run on a GM TBI. Some day my 292 will run on one. I have a 292 Offenhauser 4 BB manifold adapted for the GM TBI. I have the TBI and a stock GM harness and stock ECM. Maybe someone in Calgary has a Megasquirt and program.

Tom are we getting close to covering the costs? If this works out well maybe you could consider the same process for the 216,235 family or???

Jalopy45,
The donations so far are enough to cover the cost of the dyno, with alittle left over to help buy some needed parts/supplies. Still hitting up some of the performance parts places for:
Gaskets, timing gears and nice bolts.

Has anyone had luck rerunning a head gasket after swapping heads for another dyno pull?

How important is it to you guy's for a stock baseline dyno run? Stock cam/ head, but with 4 bbl and headers? Was contemplating skipping that part and go right into torq cam. Tom

I don't know how imoportant it is to us, but if publishing in a magazine, you might want it just for a starting point, since that's where alot of people stop with modificatiosn to an L6 engine. Kind of show how much they're missing out on? I dunno.

Just my 2 cents.

-Sam.

I think Sam is right, anybody (almost) can bolt on a manifold, and headers. Too much cam and too little cam is also a thought.

LG

You guy's are correct. Start with a stock head and cam, headers and offy intake and 390 carb. Then we will start toward torq cams and heads, ending with big cams, bigger valves, Cifford intake and a 600 carb.

The date is picked. Nov 7 and 8th. Will get the motor on the dyno, running and ready before those dates. Got lots of stuff to get done. Tom

Every combo you test is going to answer questions for someone. I'm really interested in valve size and lump no lump heads. Also where the power comes with the different cams. This is going to be great!! Beater

[quote=tlowe #1716]You guy's are correct. Start with a stock head and cam, headers and offy intake and 390 carb. Then we will start toward torq cams and heads, ending with big cams, bigger valves, Cifford intake and a 600 carb. (/quote]

Being time is limited to one day and things don't always go the way we would like I would think this would be the best place to start with as this is the usual way things are done by the average person. and then add the tourque cam as this is usually the second biggest item and then go for head upgrades, swapping cams takes time although nice to see differences given people will be able to know that if there is a given 10% for each head change then that would more than likly be what the differences are for the different cams, the last would be the clifford intake since its almost a given you are going to loose some bottom end and the only real advatage of this intake would be more for midrange to topend performance.

Tom, Do you think there's enough $$$$ here to buy you another Day? I'll send more. It would be a shame to get everything in one spot and not be able to finish. Just a thought. Beater

Beside $$$$ another set of experienced hands would most likely help.

If another day is needed I will also send more. It would be a shame to only get part way through the the desired range of parts.

Beater and Jalopy,
Did you guy's get the my email I sent out? Just want to make sure Communication is going ok.

My dyno shop and I have came to a agreement realising that it most certainly will take 2 days of runs. 50.00 per hour for shop time, this includes tools , dyno and one of the shops guy's. Some of my local Inliners are also coming to help wrench. The dyno area is small and can really only hold about 4 guy's doing things. There will be a few others there to help wrench, like my bro , who always makes fun of me messing with these inlines.

As of today 680.00 has been collected by you guy's generous contibutions. There are 17 contributors. I did go into this fully expecting to spend my own money for parts and dyno time. The outpouring of support with parts, money and help has really got me fired up. In fact now it is sometimes hard to sleep w/o thinking about it. Talk at you all later. Tom

Tom, I just checked my email and I did get your message. Thanks. I hope more venders step up. It's in their interest to show us they want us to use their stuff. Our excitement is all riding on you, no pressure though! Beater

Okay will send you another $50. email may have got caught in junk mail filter

= Found it and put it in my safe mail ,do you want an Edelbrock 600 to test?? I got one as Tom Langdon recommended it for the street over the Holley? If so will UPS it to you with a return mailer.

Jalopy,
I actually own a edel 500 and a 600. Used to run one on my 292 before turboing it.

The Holley's are much easier to tune for the dyno, as all parts are in stock at the shop and the experience is with them also.

Did everyone that has donated get a email from me? Hate to leave anyone out. Tom

Tom,

I should be sending out a money order within the next week or so. My pay periods are once a month, and slim, but I'll send as much as I can to help the effort along.

-Sam.

Sam,
Be sure to get me your email. I will send updates out. Dui (performance distributors) confirmed and is sending a complete HEI kit and wires. I have always liked their stuff.

Got a motor mount plate from Stuart Nichols in the classifieds. Nice part used to mount the 292 in the same mounts as a 250. I use pickup motor mounts and the 292 will bolt in anywhere a V8 will go.

Tom

I'm new here but very interested in results, I sent you some $$$ (mattmiller54) I have a 37 Chevy that will be getting a 250 or 292 and a 68 C20 Longhorn that already has a built 292.

I think its a win/win situation for the whole Inliner community. This is going to be the first time that real data is going to be revealed using many of the same components that you guys have been using for years, you just didn't really know how well they actually worked, or what works better. Its also a groundbreaking moment, in that a "top shelf" performance magazine has expressed interest in using this project as a feature story in their pages. This probably is the very first time that such a thorough dyno test of so many combos featuring an inline Chevy 6 has ever been done in such a publictaion....ever, or at least in our lifetime. Maybe it will stir and spark interest for other magazines to follow. I think it will also continue to show that Inliners International is kind of a "movers and shakers" type of forum, and a true leader in the Inline community, and hopefully continue to draw more and more members into it....

Do I hear maybe making it a 3 day venture? I'm looking at Toms list and it'll be real tight to do all the cam and head changes in 2 days.

One thing that is in his favor, is that both the cam swaps and the head changes is pretty quick and easy to do in an inline on a dyno. Since the whole engine is exposed all the way around, its not like fighting inside an engine compartment of a car or truck. Plus, all the heads and cams will be staged ahead of time with the cam gears already installed and heads fully assembled. Even with everything planned and laid out, I agree, it will be a full plate to accomplish all this in the time set for it. Tom has sent me a list of head and cam swap combos and the order in which it will occur, so that the possibility of unproductive testing can be minimized, and smoother flowing productive results can be maximized and tested.

CNC-Dude (and Tom):

Have you considered doing a "walk through" with the dyno call team of a representative head and cam change (say) a week prior to the actual event? Doing so will point up some of those "gotchas" that you'd like to avoid at $50/hour. You know the old saying: "the devil is in the details" so it's likely it will be the small things that will be the cause of any trouble you encounter. You'll also get a feel for what kind of time you can expect to perform the typical component swap(s) and that should be valuable when planning the test schedule. Finally, you may see additional or further ways you can "pre-assemble" some of the swap components (beyond those you've already discussed in this thread) to help save some time.

Of course, Murphy's Law (and its corollaries) will be in effect:

1) Everything that can go wrong, will go wrong.
2) Nothing is as simple as it seems.
3) Everything takes longer than it should.

It would be nice if Murphy had some prior engagement and couldn't attend the dyno session. With all the hard work and planning your team is doing, I'm guessing #1 above will be avoided. But #2 and #3, that's a different story . . .

In any event, you guys are doing an outstanding job and I can't wait to see the outcome of all the hard work, great ideas and contributions that have gone into this project.

Russk, you forgot number 4...Murphy is an optimist!

CNC, I would like to believe that the 'comunity' as a whole would take notice, but there wasn't even a peep (that I saw) after the whole 'six appeal' and <8 series in Car Craft (about 10 years ago I think).

Hope I'm wrong.


If anyoune out there doesn't know that Inliners is the 'mover & shaker' type, they haven't been paying attention.


Tom & CNC

Do you plan to use a 2 piece timing cover of some sort (to expedite cam change)?

My appologies if I missed it somewhere.

There is most definately a 2 piece front cover. Without that, cam changes would be very painfull. Still bad enough having to pull the balancer.

One other thing needed to work on is setting the valve lash quickly. Anyone have a special trick they use?

Tom

I not sure if poly locks would be quicker than the stock rocker nuts, but as far as adjustment goes I have always done mine 1 valve at a time and with 1 guy turning the motor over it shouldn't take but a couple minutes adjusting valves.

Other suggestions:
put a petcock in the block drain with hose for quicker draining of the block when ready to do head swap.

I just reread through the entire post and saw that you intend to run an after market balancer if the crank is drilled for a harmonic balancer bolt, you could hone an old harmonic balancer so that it will just slip on & off by hand. It might also be nice to see if there is any gain by the aftermarket balancer.

Possible couple other tasks,
Often I hear so much about these Edelbrock carbs and how people claim they are so much better, personally I dont think they so and neither does my local Dyno guy as he usually gets another 6+hp with a holley type carb, it would be nice to see a apples to apples swap of a holley vs edelbrock if time prevails.

You are getting a DUI distributor and it will be ?? recurved, it would be nice to see a stock HEI distibutor in there as well to campare that against it.

Nex, unfortunately it seems that ever since the V8 became so strong a contender in the automotive market back in the 50's, that the inlines have just about all but been forgotten. People seem to forget that there were racers setting records with inlines and accomplishing great feats of performance long before the V8's began to dominate the industry. And still today, there are quite a few people continuing to do incredible things with inlines. Even the vintage Stovebolts and GMC engines have some impressive records at Bonneville today still. Several of the guys in Brazil that are using turbos as big as basketballs have even taken these engines to an ever increasing higher level of HP and technology, and need to be recognized also. And its too bad that there has been too many generations of automotive enthusiasts that have grown up since the 50's, that have not even been aware of what has been going on in the inline community since then and the achievments that have been reached by the few that still carry on with them. Its almost like there are (2) different parallel universes in the automotive realm, one that covers all the modern V-stuff and sport compacts and has unlimited literature printed monthly about it, and then the inline 6's universe that no on wants to talk about and has basically had very little coverage in the past 50's years. I doubt we will win any converts over to the inline way of thinking with this magazine coverage, but at least it will be out there in print, and people will have to read past it to get to the rest of the magazine they are interested in. Im sure some percentage of that mags readership will appreciate seeing it featured, and find the dyno results something they always were curious about themelves, perhaps. I think that was what peaked my friend and magazine editor, Rob Kinnan's, interest so much, was it actually will have real data attached to it. Even the previous articles back several years ago of Kirby/Sissell in his magazine, didn't give any before and after results of any parts, or anything you expect to see in a typical engine article. It just had a few pictures and said very little about what to do to modify your inline 6. He told me, you can throw head flow #'s out there all day long, and cam specs and this and that, but with no dyno testing...there is no payoff! Readers want to see the bottom line, or you will loose their interest, he also added. At least, we as a group of inliners will be content to know, that there are those that are still forging ahead with these engines and making a mark of some kind to be helpful and to benefit others who share the same interests.

I think stock rocker nuts risk galling the rocker studs with repeated use. If they don't gall then they might be loose and back off during the pull. I suggest setscrew locking nuts or "polylocks" if that's the correct terminology will be lower failure risk.

Didn't say what type rockers will be used. Stock stamped or rollers? Either way I think stock nuts are a bad idea.

Stroker,
Got the head lifting bracket today. Way nice! That is really going to help exchanging hot heads.

Today also recieved the 5 timing gear sets from Cloyes that were asked for. Boy did they come thru. DUI said the dist is on it's way. Got a busy weekend planned working on 6's.

One other thing to add into the mix. I have the head from my old 292 that was a 4bbl setup. Well I had a 1.94 valved high compression 194 head on it. Pulled it off last night, tomorrow will lump port it and relieve the chambers for better flow with those bigger intake valves. Will probably run it on the 2 biggest cams. Tom

When is the test day?

EFI,
The dyno days are scheduled for Nov 7th and 8th. Tom

If doing an article for a magazine there will have to be photo documentation as well, maybe a vid w/ sound? Have you come to a total for the combinations yet?

I do have some people designated for video and for photograghy. Some even for refreshments!

What total of combinations do you mean? Heads, cams ect or total cost? Tom

The total number of combinations of cam, heads and intakes, for hp and torque purposes. With time restrains you won't be able to try each cam with each intake and each head.

What refreshments will be consumed at the completion of the testing?

Jalopy, there looks like (8) different cam combos with some having as many as (4) different heads to test with that are on the drawing board right now. Tom has mentioned a final test with an additional Hi-compression 194 cylinder head that wasn't part of the original (8) combos. So, if time is on his side and there aren't any hic-ups along the way, we might be able to test all, including this one also. This Hi-compression head should yield the highest HP and torque #'s when combined with the most aggresive cam profiles we have selected. Naturally, it would be pointless to test a stock head with the big flat tappet cams and the biggest valve heads with the stock cam. So only combos that are going to potentially gain forward progress have been selected to test. All the heads and cams are going to be pre-staged with their respective components already assembled to speed up the R&R process, and minimize down time between dyno pulls.

Wow!!! Just the 8 cam combos and pulling the damper over 2 days is impressive, I guess if you have intakes pre-atttached to the heads it will speed things up a lot. But that is still an average of a cam change every 2 hours. Not wanting to be redundant but WOW!!

Glad to hear you thought about my comment.
MBHD

This comment also.
MBHD

The high compression head could be the last finial stage increase. Only swapped on using the equipment that had already proved to gain the most power. What I worry about is the fact that it takes so long to just optimize one engine combination. It isn't just a matter of swapping on a new part. Changing one thing generally means changing the fuel mixture and timing as well. However it goes, it will be very enlightening and probably lay to rest a few myths that have evolved through the years. My hats off to you just for the effort. Checks in the mail.

Hank,
I had thought about the 194 high comp head long ago. But was reluctant because of the additional work to pull head, tear down, and then do all the nessecary machine work to bring it up to standards needed. But I am doing it and with more costs and work not wanted right now.

Armond,
This is indeed a worth while endeavor for me and much will be gained ( I hope)for others to clarify what really works. Same that is done for V8 monthly in the mags and tracks. You are correct and optimizing each setup will take some time. But once a good timing value is found it will likely stay the same for most head/cam setups. Fuel mixture will need to be set for the 2 different carbs and then hopefully close for the remaining pulls. But still may need to be adjusted. It would be much harder to do this in a street car as far as setting up carbs. Tom

By not changing the set up for each test, you are showing what each part actually does, and since most people don't bother with fine tuning anyway, it will be a real test of true bolt on parts.

For this type of mad dash, close on timing and mixture will be good enough. The few extra hp of fine tuning wouldn't be worth chasing in the time that you have.
You have to something for each builder to do!

Good luck with the tests, Joe.

No reason not to install a small chamber head.
If you just install a more agressive camshaft w/out increasing compression will just show how much lower end torque you will lose.
My two cents.

It just seems my comments are not needed. As I posted a couple here & no reply or recognition I posted anything.
Thats the reason I posted them again.

Moderators Please delete them if you find them offensive. Thank you.

MBHD

Hank,
With regard to your last comment:

"It just seems my comments are not needed. As I posted a couple here & no reply or recognition I posted anything.
That's the reason I posted them again.
Moderators Please delete them if you find them offensive. Thank you."

I'm sure that Tom is busier than a one armed paper hanger trying to organize all the parts and pieces necessary for the dyno tests and responding to each and every post in the thread is not a top priority but suggestions are appreciated.
Your post, however, has the tone of a spoiled four year old and and will not add to the spirit and excitement of the thread.
I have never posted here before but felt your remarks warranted a response. Since no one is stepping forward to address this uncalled for behavior I figured what the heck.
While I'm at it, I have also seen the response to questions of new posters answered with the curt response "do we have to answer this question again? We've been through this a thousand times or buy the book"by the moderator Twisted 6.
Well maybe the questioner is not as expert as some of the luminaries here or new to inlines but a rude response will not
win you any new friends
I will probably never post here again since I'm sure I have mortally offended you but I feel that the above needed to be said.
Thanks and goodbye.

Woody

hello i am new . I am a tractor puller who has some interest in a 292 build. I logged on here to ask a question has anyone heard of a massey ferguson rod being utilized in a 292. I have a source that told me that it was one of jim headricks tricks that was used in cotton perrys engines . I would like to know which engine the rod came from the smallest masseys used a 1.5 rod journal and the next up used a 1.97 rod journal.

Hi Mitch, yeah, you hear a lot of untruths and misconceptions about what Jim and Cotton did or didn't do. And this is one of them. With the exception of one time, Jim always used Superod brand aluminum rods in Cotton's engines, and the other time that was the exception, was at the Mile High Nats in Denver, where they used Titanium rods in that engine only one time...well two passes to be exact. One came thru the side of the block. Back then,(6) of them still cost over $2000 bucks, and Jim thought that was too rich for his blood to try again....

wheres this dyno run going to be located. cnc dude you wouldnt be familiar with a t bucket that went by teachers pet years ago would you .

The shop doing the dyno testing for tlowe is located in Iowa, close to where tlowe lives. I think I vaguely recall that car your speaking of.

ok i give who are you . i thought you may have been phil lea thats why i asked about the teachers pet.

Again, I would like to thank all for the support so far.

Got donated parts now from:
DUI HEI dist and wires
Cloyes 5 timing gear sets
Felpro 6 head gaskets and numerous other engine gaskets
Langdons stovebolt side covers
Offenhouser Valve cover
and more stuff to come.

Woody ,
You put it right that I am busier than a 1 handed paper hanger. Now that made me laugh! Always did wish I had 4 arms though. My wife thinks I am nuts, she is probably right as ussual.

Mitch, The shop is in Dysart, Iowa and is within a few miles of my home.

Again, thanks to all for the support and encouragement. Still listening for ideas. My ears are open! Nothing is discounted. Tom

after i get finished with my four cylinder up grade. A allis chalmers 226ci 65 horse 8.1 factory (4x4.5). massaged out to(4.625x5.77) 388ci and 15.2.1 compression . i will either be in the market or doing a 292 buildup . I am after 400hp and 400 ftlbs from 5200 to 7grand before it bowes its head is this feasable

No im not Phil Lea....thankfully!

not knowing who i am talking to this close to my stomping grounds is working on me. do you own a dirt track speedway . you do know that phil takes credit for the aluminum rods .

tlowe i appologise for hijacking youre post . cnc dude is in my back yard so to speak and last year i talked with ronnie and he told me to talk with self . so i called self got some numbers just havent did anything yet . tlowe i didnt see any of ron iskyderains products he has been helpfull with a regrind for my puller.

Do we really need a one top poster to personnally attack me & leave this post here?

Moderators???

Thank you

Woody did a decent job of putting into words what I thought when reading your post as well. I don't frequent this page often - but I have gotten good information from folks here and have tried to help out in areas where I know a few things.

I don't particularly like feedback from others that is critical of something I have said or done - but I listen and try to learn from it. Looking back, that feedback has been the best thing for me.

I hope Woody sticks around - he wouldn't be here if he didn't have an interest in inlines.

Ken Brown
Yacolt, WA
GMC inline nut

It just shows how easily posts can be taken the incorrect way just as you have.

I hope Woody does not stick around ,we do not need people personally attacking other people here on the BB.

He knows how rude his comment was & does not want to post here again.

Two cents thrown

MBHS

I think you all need to stop.It doesn't matter who's post is taken the wrong way or who it upsets, if you don't like it, don't read it and carry on. I'd like to see a comparison of Holley vs Edelbrock carbs but there won't be enough time for Tom to that with only 2 days on the dyno. Right now he's probably stressed out enough just trying to work out a schedule what to swap when and who he has to help him do it. This post started with some of us wanting as much info as we can get about the 194-292 family of inlines. I for one will be happy with whatever I can get.

Hey Woody
As a one time Poster an Non Paying Free Loader How about taking a Walk HOWs That for being Rude for ya.
JUst My vented 2cents worth.
Just a Lot of times some of US get feed up answering the same things OVER AND OVER. When some people are just to lazy to do a search.

And now for another 2cent comment. If the cams are not degreed
There is No fair testing to any of it. And to do so we/you eat up a lot of time. AND You can't say well This Or that Is Junk ,And find out the issue was a vacum Leak Or something of that nature.So all this rushing can basicaly give a Good Base line on things But NOT 100% And as I have seen Some stuff in most mags Seem so far out there or off it's not funny. But merly best to maybe?? taken with a Grain of salt.

But anyway Best off Luck with the Apples to Apples.
Vented my 2 cents

To all,

Been gone to a 2 day class for work, missed alot of fun here. Glad to see new/ more people posting , too.

I also took Hank's comment alittle on the bad side. Even went out and PM'ed him about it, then we have Pm'd back and forth about them. All seems to be ok.

Saying this, Woody's comment was alittle brash, but he was stating his opinion, we all have one of them don't we? If you have a problem with someone PM them and or report to the MODS, or do as Ken said , ignore their posts..

This engine test is a one of a kind to be done. Tell me someone else who has done, shared, published results? Didn't think there was . The testing will prove alot for the inline 292 world. I have also degreed in cams, for sbc and these inlines. How many cams have I found to be wrong? Zero, none! Not saying there could not be a problem, just doubtful.

True, we won't squeeze 100% out of every combo, but bet will be within 2-3%, so that does not mean anything? Yes it will. Also not trying to say anything is junk, just trying to get proven combos.

I personally enjoy helping people with their problems. And am not bothered by even little questions, we all started out somewhere. Maybe my fuse is a lot longer than others. Tom

P.S. Having used the search engine many times, it works like **ap. Maybe I just don't get it, sometimes known to be slow, you know. Tom

Yes, it's like Tom says! The test, the questions, and especially the search engine. Lets get back to the business at hand which just happens to be at the crux of why we all come here. It's our deep interest in these engines and our desire to exchange information with others. We are not required to read every post, answer every question, or one up each perceived insult. This is too good to blow over personality imperfections! Beater

DITTO

When tlowe and myself first concieved this idea back in July, our first and only purpose and intention with this testing, was to solve the age old questions.....what works and what doesn't, and share it with our fellow Inliners! There is no one on this planet that you can call that will tell you what kind of power #'s any of these components will make in these engines, not even the people that sell them. They can tell you what there computer simulation says....or their best guess....but no actual verified data. Thats because no one before has ever taken the time or expense to research these answers and actually do it. The spoils of this testing goes beyond just the people here on Inliners, but also the companies whose components are going to be represented will also reap many benefits as well. Now, they will be able to intelligently make better product recommendations for other inline enthusiasts how are seeking their guidance, because they will have more baseline info to draw from. And the good thing is that everyone here was given a backstage pass to see all the unfoldings of this before anyone else was given the opportunity to be included.....

I can see that some naysayers are finally starting to show up to the party. This isn't my first rodeo, or tlowe's either. The same opportunities that have been offered to us for this magazine deal, are there for anyone....jump on in, the waters just fine! Peace out...

Now that gas prices and home price have equaled our inlines will appeal to many more. It's a fact of life, money (or lack ) drives a large portion of the masses. A smaller, more efficient six could very well be the best choice for someone who isn't a die hard six fan. I think these test will open many eyes. Besides, they sound soooo good!

Tom seeing that you are wanting to QUOTE me. In the last 30 some plus years of building engines I have come across more then a dozen or so cams that have been Off Of what the cam card calls for.Which when you think about it That is bad at all. All I was saying Is things should be CHECK. In a Perfect World Which it is not Things do not always go to plain No matter how well they are laid out. And as to naysayers WHAT's up with that??(I can see that some naysayers are finally starting to show up to the party. This isn't my first rodeo, or tlowe's either. The same opportunities that have been offered to us for this magazine deal, are there for anyone....jump on in, the waters just fine! Peace out... )

Tom
Honestly I hope that everything goes go as Plained. I wasn't trying to bash what your trying to do.

Larry, it might not have been your intention, and its understandable that you needed to address the comment that woody made. It just seems your mood from handling that, might have bled over into your comments that appeared to kinda' take a jab at the efforts of this project in regard to most mags having inaccurate info, and the info being taken with a grain of salt that you read in them. Almost, like you were trying to discredit what it is going to say before its even printed. Again, might not have been your intention, but it just appeared to several of us that the woody comment, and the magazine comments didn't really fit together in the same post, and made us wonder how they came out being connected in the same tone like that. Thats all...

T6,
No harm done and you are correct, things can happen to screw everything up. I am sure trying to keep that bad thing away. This weekend cams are getting checked, as well as a great TDC indicator and then it is off to be bolted in and test run. This will all be done well ahead of the actual dyno day.

To all,
As of today 21 gracious people have donated a total of 925.00 hard earned dollars. What a relief to me, I was planning on paying for this myself and paying for it by doing extra rearend work. Still have lots to do and am going back out to the shop. Later. Tom

TLowe and CNC-Dude:

I was wondering if you were going to include "weather data" as part of each combination description and resulting dyno graphs that will be published. I'm thinking of the basic things like temperature, pressure, water grains, and the resulting corrected altitude. Given that the tests will be run over a two day period, there could be a significant change in the conditions that will certainly have an affect the results. Knowing what environmental changes were in play from the test of one combination to another will help us (and the magazine readers) put the performance "deltas" into a little more accurate perspective.

However, if the dyno pull data (tables and graphs) are normalized to account for environmental differences, that would be great and that bit of information might be worth noting in the part of the article where you describe the testing equipment, environment, and such.

Just another (probably obvious and already covered) thought . . .

That is a good point russk. Some dynos like Superflow have weather stations to compensate for altitude and weather conditions. Im pretty sure the dyno Tom will be using should also be equipped with a similar package. It will also be pretty cool in Iowa in November too, so that should make some pretty good power #'s as long as there not a lot of moisture in the air. Tom, any idea what the altitude is there in Dysart....

Guys like Larry are lucky to live close to sea level there in Florida where the air is good. They make more HP down there.

Tom,

Just picked up a money order, so it'll be going out today or tomorrow. So, add another $30 to the pot of contributions.

I just had to get in on this, I'm so excited for this dyno test.

-Sam.

CNC-Dude:

In the "Great Northwest" (Southern Oregon on Agency Lake at 4,200 feet specifically) we have an old saying about the weather: "If you don't like the weather [now], just wait an hour . . .".

And that's the real truth. We can have a ridge of high pressure in place and then have a low pressure trough blow in (typically from the south and west) and the barometric pressure will drop like a rock in a matter of a couple of hours. With attendant changes in moisture and temperature, we can see our corrected altitude move my more that 1500 feet! That can sure impact the performance of a naturally aspirated (non-EFI) engine running on pump gas!

PS: The one offset we have to these local conditions is all the good oxygen put off by our forests. NHRA crew chiefs say they actually have to take that into account when racing at Seattle.

Russk, thats interesting. I just checked on Google Earth and saw that Dysart averages around 950-975 ft. of elevation.

Yes i should not have stuck it all in one topic/comment.
Honestly Guys Sorry.And Yes being at sea level can Make alot of difference in many thing.

Larry, we know you didn't purposely do it. Just looking at the post, I figured that was probably what happened. No sweat, were all friends here, so lets move on....

CNC-Dude:

Wow! Dysart at 950-975 feet. Given some cool, dry air and a big ridge of high pressure and you guys may just blow up the dyno. Well maybe not but you should get some impressive numbers all the same.

Russ, im just hoping it will inspire or stir others to become involved in doing more inline oriented magazine articles. These inlines have been overlooked for ages, and it seems like we are the only ones who recognize their potential, and appreciate them. Who knows, maybe one day the interest will grow so large that you will be able to buy an Inline only magazine of the rack, and it not be a Sport Compact type of inline either.

Russ,
We may shake some dust up for sure. Mainly because of the good cleaning the dyno room will get for pics!

The funny thing is the speed shop is downtown and surrounded by girly type stores. They don't like it alot when big V8's are run on weekends as they make quite a racket. They will hear this and think what the hey is that! Tom

Make sure to get some good sound bites. That would be a good ring tone for our phones so we could recognize each other as Inliners!

Thats funny....

Remember the old 8 track tapes you could buy that had engine sounds on them....You could even make a message for your answering machine with it revving up in the background. The possibilities are endless....

Weather Corrections:
I totally agree on the comments -
Ideally it is best to have both the raw uncorrected dyno numbers *and* the numbers corrected to SAE gross [open exhaust, no air cleaner or base only, 60F 29.92 dry air into the carb, no accessories except water pump].

I sent Tom a PDF of some Gonkulator computer predictions, from the stock 166hp 292 to Tom's base run (4v and headers) of 193hp, best run at 305hp along with many other planned runs. Just computer predictions so we will see how good they are with this rare 292 dyno series!

In my planned 63 Nova, 200-4r and 3.25 9" rear, this took the car from a computed
16.32 at 80.5 (stock 292) to
14.19 at 95.5 (301cid, 305hp, max planned dyno run).

These did not include the high-compression super-ported head discussed later here in the thread. That should do even better.

As a last suggestion, perhaps repeat an early run near the end of the dyno set to see if the engine (or dyno) is getting tired. This happened during the very useful "Intake Comparo" over on the Ford FE site - so the dyno comparisons had to be either corrected or rerun to account for the engine/dyno changes. A repeat run would help assure this did not happen.

Wow, like everyone else, I can't wait for the results.

Something else I see no one has brought up. And that is push rod lenght Issue That can come about When swapping cams as well,Just like valve lenght also comes into play with Push rods.Which can also lead into swap time on the dyno.

Larry, that is a very good point. I can't recall discussing this with Tom as of yet. Thanks for pointing this out. Scott

For sure with that variety of cams and heads there could be more than the adjusters can handle to keep things aligned.

Guy's,
Here is a status update,
Been working on lots of heads.
Cleaned all heads to be used.
Decarboned a stock head and put in new springs
Same to another stock head and then gave it a lump job with alittle cleanup in the valve bowls.

Have a newly done 1.84, 1.94 (both 70CC) and a 1.94 (62CC) lump heads also ready.

Got cams all ready along with the headers and intakes. Other things include Motor mounts, throttle cable, added a WBO2 sensor gauge to the dyno.

Have a pushrod length checker and that will be next, in case pushrods need to be ordered. Later Tom

Awesome Tom!

This whole process will be interesting.

I will definately buy the magazine the article will be published in.

MBHD

Samwise68,
Got it yesterday! Thankyou! Did you get my return email?

If there is anyone that has not recieved a email that should , please PM me, with your email.

Hank,
Hope everything turns out as planned, all counted up there is 20 tests, atleast for now. Then there is that pesky article to coordinate.

Back out to the shop! Tom

Tom,

Just checked my e-mail. Got it, and a reply is on it's way to you.

-Sam.

Tom

Don't know what lift cams you plain on testing Or pusg rod Dia. But anyway there can also be push rod to head clearance issues depending on Dia. & lift. even if useing guide plates. Just more food for thought.

Hank maybe if the magazine sells well they'll make a movie of it! Who do you think they'll get to play Tom? Anthony Hopkins? "The Worlds Fastest Head Changer"
Tom, You are amazing! I hope you're getting help. I mean with the project. Beater

Or, you could send in a series of articles to Wanda Kincaid for the club publication, 12 Port News.

Now that would be OUTSTANDING!!!!

How's it going Tom? Anything we can do?

Guy's,
just came in for supper. Whew! Have I been busy. Had a fellow inliner and son over helping with stuff. The whole deal is coming together.
Did find a snafu. The Cloyes timing set steel lower gear has no bolt holes to remove it with a puller? The old GM had holes. Will contact Cloyes and see if they can remedy this.

Going back out to the shop! Tom

P.S. The wife left me today, I am stuck with 3 kids! With a chore list! She won't be back till Wed night. Went to a seminar, don't worry.

If you wish, send the timing gears to me and I'll put some puller holes in them.

Tom, you use a bearing puller, similar to what you would use to pull a carrier bearing off a rear end with. It is thin enough to fit between the front main and the gear.

Fixed the timing gear this morning. Drilled and tapped it on the mill. At first, thought it would be a hardened part and therefor be unwilling to be threaded.

Back at it tonight. Tom

I forgot & too lazy to search,,when is the dyno session?

Thanks

MBHD

Nov. 7tb. and 8th. Tom sent us emails with schedule of parts swaps and it looks good!!

jalopy, I like the sound of "us" in your post! Like we're really a part of this. "We" need T-shits that have a picture of Tom and the 292 and says "WE HELPED" I'll buy one.

beater,
I like the T shirt idea!

I have a few more things/ideas to try if time allows. It is all coming together. It will be an exciting 2 days! Tom

Tom, Don't let "us" distract you. There's plenty of time for dress-up when you're done. We'll be proud to claim a small piece involvement. We'll be hot dogs at our local Inliners meetings! Beater

Been wrenching like crazy! Fitting and testing, fitting and testing. Getting all the correct easiest to use hardware everywhere. Busy, busy, busy.

Again THANKYOU to all that have donated your hard earned money toward this.
Also a BIG hats off to fellow inliner Don Schnauber to spend 2 Full days helping me and having to drive 2 hrs each way. His expertise with machining was a blessing.

P.S. Another lesson learned, when using a 230-250 camshaft in a 292. You will need to remove the fuel pump lobe in a lathe. It will contact a rod.

Drilled all the cam snouts for a 7/16 bolt hole. Going to use a Long threaded bolt to help align cams. When using the Clifford front cover, it allows you no room for your fingers to go around the gear. Clifford front cover does not fit without sanding near waterpump area and also sanded the edge of waterpump.

Pulleys are all setup for proper belt alignment with only a crank and WP pulley, no idler. Later Tom
Had a small snafu with the dist shaft. It is a 2 piece design and had way to tight of a fit between the 2 shafts.

P.S. Another lesson learned, when using a 230-250 camshaft in a 292. You will need to remove the fuel pump lobe in a lathe. It will contact a rod.

What rods are you using?

Stock rods, It just has a big stroke. Tom

Thats why the fuel pump location on the 292 was moved, and the motor mount location on that side of the block is different than a 194-250 block. On the long stroke 292, the connecting rod hits the eccentric on the camshaft, and the engineers had to redesign those locations for the 292.

Also be careful when buying new or used inline cams for these engines, because the 292 is different than the 194-250's in that regard. They are application specific for 292's and 194-250 engines.

I'd never heard that there was a clearance problem only that you had to use an electric fuel pump. Thanks, my cam is for a 194-250. Tom

CNC Dude,

I understand the difference between 250 and 292 cams due to the fuel pump lobe, but what about grind characteristics? Will a 250 cam and 292 cam, designed for a similar application (hi-torque etc.), have different duration and lift figures due to the different stroke/cid?

Removing a lobe is easy on a used cam, but I'd like to know if other characteristics make a 250 cam not a good choice for a 292.

Thanks,

Dave

A cam for a 292 will seem bigger in a 250. an 250 cam will seem smaller in the 292.Also the cams for the 292 are clearanced for the rods.

Hi Dave,
As Twisted6 has pointed out, this comparison is similar to putting a camshaft ground for a 400 SBC into a 283. It would appear mild in the 400, but it would most likely be too radical for the 283. Back when Cam Dynamics was around back in the early 1980's, they and other cam companies seemed to offer camshafts more specific for these engines individually. But, unfortunately, as time has moved on, most cam companies seem to have fallen into the "one cam fits all" selection as far as grinds go for these engines. So, yes I would look to going with a custom grind for the 292 if the specs appear to be more 194-250 oriented. Most cam grinders will gladly accomodate this for you if needed if they have the cores available that aren't already ground to finish specs. If you are going with a hydraulic or solid roller, then you have the option to put any grind on the billet you choose to, since they start out as round lobe blank.

Larry is right the 292 cam is also clearanced for the rods to travel past it. In 6 locations. You can also do this, I did with a grinder, did not get to use my favorite tool this time (sawzall).
If anyone looks in lets say the Competition cams catalog (online). You will see that a High Energy grind for either a 250 or 292 use the exact same specification for the lobes lift and duration. Where it gets different is when the cubic inch's of the engine come into play. As Larry and CNC said, a cam that seems big in a 250 will seem smaller in a 292. Back to work. Tom

Tom: I'm late in sending my check, but hope you can still use it. My email address is jimrj@aol.com. Good luck this weekend. Jim

Jim,
You are not too late. Thankyou .

I do have more money involved than the dyno charges, but that was expected by me. The help you guy's are giving is a huge relief and allowing this to go much smoother.

Was out in the shop early this morn and will be back at it tonight. Tom

Thanks for doing this. Much appreciated. I'm awaiting results before I purchase camshaft for my 292.

Thanks George,

Just got back in from shop. Got a 250 cam converted to clear the 292. Just takes some simple grinding. 12 spots worth!

Engine is all mounted up on dyno and hope to fire it on Thurs. Had to get some exhaust pieces as they have only ever done the Vthings. Engine fit nice with Sarge Nichols and Daves motor mount bracket as sold in the classifieds. Bolts right into the V*8 saddles. We mounted the motor slightly crooked so cam changes will be easier. Also had to move the water column from right side of dyno to left for the cam changes. Exhaust temp sensors, oil amd water are all hooked up. Goodnight. tom

GoodNight indeed Tom. You are a dynamo!

Yes, What Sam said!!!!

Found a small snafu when putting the Clifford 2 piece timing cover on. Pulled the timing cover from the 292 being used. Found the timing gear slid out on the cam! In fact , slid it off with my hands! Anyway, pulled cam and inspected, all looked well. Installed a new gear and will be reusing this cam during the runs.

Always drill and tap the crank gear for 2 3/8 bolts, it will aid at a later date when pulling the crank gear.

Hope to have it running tonight, the snafu slowed me down. Keep your fingers crossed. Tom

Did you ever heat the gear before installing it?? If not it will come off again.Esp a ALUM gear. Also it is better to mech. fasten
it to the cam.Yes there is a set-up available which only takes a small dimple in the cover. Unlike the Other that is out there that needs a Freeze plug welded to the cover to clear.

This was a gear that was not installed by me. I installed the new one this time.

Engine not running yet, dyno throttle cable will not clear valve cover, having to turn carb and the adaptor is not cooperating. tom

Good luck Tom I hope you win the fight with all those parts and cables.
One last computer prediction, not included in the set I sent you.
Max hp for the 70cc lump head at 8.8cr, biggest cam and Cliff intake, predicted at 305hp.
Same head only 62cc gave me 9.43cr, computed to
Torq 328 at 4000
Powr 313 at 5400
Who knows, maybe more depending on the head flows.
Can't wait for the results I hope you get to do all or even most of the planned tests.

Going to get a earlier start on it on Fri afternoon.

Got the 1st cam installed and ready to drop dist. Once carb is on, will hit the go button for the 1st time. Then get ready for the long weekend.

Have a few extra tests to be tried, all flow related. Hopefully will learn some good stuff.

Plenty of local Inliners and gearheads are going to be helping, infact at times it may get real crowded.

Wife still thinks I'm nuts. Tom

Tom - you show me someone who has accomplished something noteworthy and I'll show you someone who is a certified nut.

It'll be interesting if the 292 in its hottest form will match HP with what my 8.2:1 4200 did NA with the stock exhaust manifold..... despite have 40 ci more to work with...

I think the 292 will do better torque wise....

Let us know which magazine is considering running the test. I just want to make sure my subscription is current and don't miss it.

Ok, we'll keep everyone posted on the magazine article and dates for printing.

Tom, let me know if there is anything else I need to send to you Next Day Air on Friday with the package im already sending to you.

Good luck.

Be safe.

"Wrenchers take your marks. get ready....". or is it, "Gentlemen start your wrenches"? At any rate I hope all goes well and not matter what we'll learn something. Just building an engine that handles this is an accomplishment! Be sure to keep the cameras rolling! Beater

Tom, CNC-Dude, and others:

Just wanted to wish you all great success over the weekend. I know a lot [!] of planning and hard work has been done by a number of Inliners to prepare and I have no doubt that will pay off big time.

Besides, I have it on good authority that "Murphy" will be in Washington DC all weekend to help Congress with the health care bill so things should go reasonably well in the dyno cell.

Good luck and I'll look forward to hearing about the results.

Russ

Yes it will be interesting.

What was your HP w/the lowered compression 4.2?

Mike K, w/his very mild 250 & his 12 port head made 300 HP.

MBHD

Just talked to Tom and they had the engine running on the Dyno with the stock cam and a lump head and got over 200 horses. You could tell that Tom was smiling from ear to ear. The Clan is gathering and they are getting ready for tomorrow.

I next day aired him some prototype goodies to test and he should recieve them at the shop tomorrow. All in all,a lot of things to test and R&D with.

IIIIMMMM back! And no burns to show for it.

The 292 lives! Had some troubles with things, carb, dist and stuff in general. But it now does run and start very well.

How much power does a stock cammed 292 and low comp engine make with a lump port 1.94 valved head, 600 carb, offy intake and headers?

216.9 HP @ 4300 rpm and started the tq @ 2500 rpm with 315 and made a straight line to 211 @ 4500rpm. It runs good. Would be a great combo for any streeter.

That was the head installed on this engine. it is now off and a completely stock head is bolted on ready for Saturdays event.

Back out to the shop, have to weld up the pesky header flange that is not sealing up.

What nail biting fun!

CNC Dude, hope you have some beer and jerky in that package.

It is going to be a couple long days. Still keep your fingers crossed guy's. Tom

I think we should've seen if anyone had a Fedex account we could have used for shipping, you'd be surprised what just a 1 lb. package cost to Next Day Air up there. You should have it around 3 PM....

Once upon a time in a cramped dyno booth in Dysart, Iowa a group of greasy men gathered with a a pile of engine parts and a plan. Only a few of their friends payed attention to them in their pursuit of factual information that would answer questions they had been asking each other for as long as the oldest in the group could remember. Had they been normal and traditional in their quest for speed and power they would have long ago fitted their various vehicles with modern designed, large displacement V8 engines which the speed industry favored with unlimited products. These guys were different, really different, they were "INLINERS" and had gathered to explore the limits of the long skinny engines they were drawn to. Except for the Canadian who was different in a different way. He was waiting for their tests to show that he had been right all along because the engine he was drawn to is modern and fat! It took weeks or even years, to accumulate the necessary pieces to build an engine that would be competitive with out of the crate Vs. That was not the point. The point is magic, and their purpose is to separate the black magic from the white, the facts from myths. They are finishing their preparations now and soon we will know the truth!!

Sorry I'm just so excited. Good luck Tom and friends! Beater

That's funny Beater, I should use that as an intro to my book, kinda' like a comic twist.

Comic? I was dead serious! Use what you like. Beater

Yes

8.2 Cr

Comp cams
ported exhaust port

stock intake stock exhaust.

Beater,
Thats some fun stuff there! Very good. I f you guys could have seen me, drove straight there from work, got off early of course. Wearing Blue dress pants, wing tips and a nice button up shirt. Next just stripped to a T shirt and going to town. Wife will not be happy! Try'd not to wipe my hands on my pants,really!

I do have to thank Strokersix (Mike) from this BRD and my local chapter, for his gracious help. Without him I'd still be wrenching. He heard more than his share of profanity, not from me of course. Hope he is not scared off! Tom

Tom,

Don't forget your camera.... videocam would be nice.

Just for fun,,,


try adding a little nitro @ the end of the dyno session,,,,,say 2%

R/C planes & car hobby shops sell 100% nitro.

Just a thought ;-)


MBHD

You can do it DYNO BOY!

Wow tom that sounds like quite the result from the mods described (the 217 Hp 315 Lb ft in post 53226, dang, that's alot a posts).

It certainly sounds like a good performer, looking forward to further progress.

Glad to hear no new "birthmarks" yet, stay safe.

Was there a PAS manifold & PAS lumps in the mix???

Goodluck!!!


MBHD

Tom and CNC-Dude:

It crossed my mind (not a very long trip?) that the data, charts, photos, sights and sounds gathered during the weekend will be far more than those that will make it into the magazine article (or series of articles). I know I'd like to get my hands on as complete as set of documents as possible and I suspect others would as well. Have you considered assembling a DVD that contains a full set of documents, photos, tables, graphs, video, and such, and offer it for a nominal fee? I'd sure be willing to buy a copy.

Russ

Russ, check your messages, I sent you a PM. Yes there are a variety of opportunities that have developed for us through this dyno test, and continue to grow for us every day as well. So, the possibility for expanding into other types of media such as videos and other printed matter is already in the works. We will have a lot of data to digest for sure, so just organizing it into the appropriate formats is what we are going to have to so we can maximize how far we can spread it out.

What is happening? Is everything working. I haven't been this nervous since My son's started driving! Oh well no news is, ah.... no news.

Beater, just spoke to him at 4:55 PM EST, and all is going good, he just did the first cam swap and was fixing to crank it when I talked to him. About the same time you made the post. So I was beginning to wonder myself. Sounds like they will be busy. He did get my Next Day Air package, so he will have that stuff to add to the testing as well. Maybe he will add comments as the day progresses.

Man, I wish I could email them some of my nervous energy. They are going to need it by this time tomorrow. Different head with the first cam? And that went well?

Beater, being that it was that late in the day, I kinda' got the feeling that Tom was hoping to have been farther along. But he said they were just about to crank it at that time. He didn't say if they had made any test pulls prior to this today.

Immmmm baaaaack!


After a very long, grueling, nail biting day, the 292 keeps on chugging like the good ole grain truck it once came out of.

So far we have made (get this ) 9 dyno runs, each run consists of a change and 4-5 runs to get real stable readings. So at least 45 full throttle pulls were made. What a day!

Started with stock head/ stock cam and 180 ish Hp, after much head and cam changes we are now upto 265 hp and only medium street cam and a 184 lump head, all below 5k rpm.

Tomorrow is another long day and a bunch more fun, It really was worth all the effort so far. 4 more cams to test and 2 more heads. And a bunch of other sideline tests to boot.

Today we went thru 3 heads, 4 cams, 2 intakes and other variables.

Still do not have any burns or cuts. Just tired. Report back more on Sunday evening. Tom

That is impressive! That took a team effort. Wow and all that below 5,000. I hope tomorrow is as productive and safe. Beater

More POWER to you!

Getting ready to start another long day. Bacon is cooking. later. Tom

Wish I could have made a second trip up there today but glad I got there Friday. Good luck!

Stroker, Thanks. I wish I could have been there, or be there. It will be interesting to learn how you divided the tasks and what new words you learned.

Tom,
If you have a moment -
Can you describe the exhaust (if any)?
Is it just open collectors, or solid dual pipes (size?) or any mufflers (what kind/brand?)

thanks for the updates you can see all the enthusiasm

I saw 1 5/8 dia full length truck headers into 2 1/2 dia collector pipes into large dyno pipes. I think this was the exhaust for the remainder of testing but I'm not there so can't verify.

Strokersix, that sounds pretty accurate for the exhaust system that will be used with all the testing. Thanks for your help, that one day got Tom and everyone that much farther along than they would have gotten.

Suggestion if not too late - Secondary Opening check?

Maybe you did this already but many times with a Vac Sec carb (Holley 390 or 600), folks will force the secondary open mechanically for the dyno so it doesn't flutter or get lazy about opening.

Or at least if you can film or watch to make sure the secondary is opening all the way.

(A 200hp engine should be able to pull a 390 Holley completely open, and a 300hp engine should be able to pull a 600 Holley all open)

Reason I mention it is, believe it or not, the 3 horsepower hints so far are running about 5% BELOW what my Gonkulator computer predicted, whereas torque was right on. Not that the computer is always (or ever) totally right, I was just looking for things besides timing and jets that might be holding it back a bit like mufflers or a partially open secondary.

Then again all this dyno data will give my Gonkulator a slight attitude adjustment I am sure, so, just suggesting here just in case.

Since most people consider a dyno to be the absolute in real world data acquisition, the fact that you were even able to get within 5% of the established results from one is something to be considered. Some of the very high end software used by many of the Winston Cup teams sometimes misses the mark by that much. 5% at 200 HP isn't that much to think about, but 5% at 800 HP is a whole lot to miss it by.

I am back, after a very long dyno day.
Much has been learned about this motor and some of the different theories out there have been put to test.
offy vs clifford vs PES
stock head thru big valve lump head tests (4 of them)
5 cam tests
even the ole 194 cu in high compression head test

The dynoing is not complete, today did not go as well as yesterday, and maybe yesterday went way better than we deserved.

We chased a bug after a cam change that could not be shook. So not all tests were run , yet. The engine is staying on the dyno for a bit longer, will try to wring out the bug.

Here is the bug.
Head presently: 194 with 1.94 intakes / 1.60 exh. ported and lumped.
cam Clifford 270
Intake Clifford
carb 600 holly
When making the run torq starts nice and is higher than most other runs. About 3600 rpm it seems to have a dip and then pulls again, at higher rpm, there is a definate cough/ hiccup around 4600-4900 rpm. AFR looks good and simular to other runs. Did same thing with another head but was more prevalent. We found a galled exhaust valve and thought we cured it(with other head). This week will try a different dist. If that fails then change the cam, since this is when it started, even with other head.

So far the highest Hp seen was 275, but we are sure that this cam will surely produce 5 hp more. tq with this cam stays above 300 from 2500 - 4600 rpm. but the hiccup kills the dyno run.

I will get the info compiled and let you know more about the specific tests.

I can say this without a doubt, The Clifford manifold wins hands down over a Offy in tq from 2500 rpm Up. And this is where we tested.
Also tested was a PES intake. We could not even get a full pull from it! It must send the worst vacum signal ever to the carb. I even tried to hold the secondaries closed and open to get it to work. Bad science there for us. That was also the start of problems for us on Sunday.

A big thankyou to the local( 2 hr drive ) guy's. They were a huge help. And big thankyou to Tom Langdon and Elmer Stange that drove 8 Hrs to help for 2 days. That is dedication! Dave Jones was a big help on Saturday and kept all the tools and parts going the right way.

I finally succombed to those blasted headers with a intake swap. Got a Rasberry burn on my forearm. Got alot of complaints of the shine in the camera images, what are they talking about? And that Joe Gibbs Racing oil is going to stay in my hands for a week! On the drive home in the Elco, Spilled the crock pot of baked beans in the bed, tried to get the dog to eat them and he thumbed his nose. Guess I will have to clean it up.

So, you get to use the dyno some more? You're brave enough to keep going? It will really be fun to see all of this when it gets sorted out. Sounds like you had some good help. I hear that shine in the camera crap too. I don't know what that is , it's gone when I look through it. Take care of your wound and rest. Thanks! Beater
REMEMBER: The more times beans have been eaten the better dogs like 'em!

He's gone too far to stop now....Plus, there are still some items to test that are likely to provide the biggest gains.

So, maybe some more donations might be in order?

Sam,
I will get a price today for the dyno work done so far. I'll add up the contributions and see how it all fell out.

Had a nice sleep last night, still recouperating from the work.

Got to figure out the bug we have. try a dist first and then a different cam.

Anybody have any ideas on why a PES intake would not work? There were no vacum leaks and we used the same carb. Ussually we could bring the engine up against 200 ft lbs load @ 3000 rpm and the engine would lean right into it like a horse. With the PES , it could not hold the load without bucking up and down. It just could not produce the tq. Maybe we are trying it in the completely wrong application. Its runners are really no bigger than a Clifford, go figure. Tom

Is there something about the PES intake that affects F/A ratio?

The PES we have reminds more of a tunnel ram for a bent engine which are designed for high rpm not torque??? As for the money, in for a penny in for a pound as the British say so let us know how much more you need, you're doing the labor which is plenty so I'll be happy to send more.

Think we need a pic of the PES intake you are talking about when you get a chance.

I was thinking it was a modified clifford with welded up floors & there bolt in lumps?????

Or is it that long looking tunnel ram??? I think if it's the tunnel ram looking intake,,,,need to start off @ a higher RPM like 4000-4500 range. IMO Low RPM will give a weak signal to the carb.

Leelites will know ... J.K. LOL

MBHD

Yeah, its a design like you posted a while back in the ebay auction. Its a real tall high rise style intake, much like a tunnel ram as you mentioned. Probably a race only intake for much higher RPM than the average inliner is looking for.

Isn't the PES designed to use with squared off lumps?? If that is the case then perhaps the high floor on the manifold and the tapered lump don't like each other at low r.p.m......just a thought .....if a/f was checked at a single point that could mask cyl to cyl distribution problems that are sometimes prevalent in a high rise....just food for thought guys; wish I could have been there.......fats

Fats, the correct PES squared off lumps(not teardropped) are being used in conjunction to the PES intake manifold that has the raised floor. Since much of the ebay marketing in the past has suggested that teardropping the PES is not the correct procedure for using them, even though it is claimed to still be superior to the current teardrop style if you do modify the PES lumps that way. Tom wanted to test and see if there was any validity to using them in the manner they(PES)were designed to be used in. So far the main obstacle in using the PES lumps is the PES intake itself. It doesn't appear to be as compatible with more streetable cam/head combos as the Clifford or Offenhauser intakes have shown to be.

PES intake

Jalopy,
Yep that is the intake we tried, maybe we did something wrong. Certainly did give it a honest try. It was like a kid trying to climb a rope and crying that they can't do it before they even tried. The other 2 intakes said bring it on!

We did check the AFR #'s alot with all the combos

Vacum readings were also taken with each cam @ idle and the RPM was noted.

The secondaries were monitored and found to be opening just above 3K RPM.

The exhaust is just as Stoker six said. Clifford truck headers (long) with 2.5" collectors to 2 1/4" pipes(duals) to very large free flowing outdoor exhaust. We opened up the collector flanges from 2".

One other problem encountered was the #3 cam bearing starting to go bad. The oil pressure at idle was showing it's symptoms of only 10 psi at idle. Under a run would still achieve 40 psi. Hoping the engine can continue the runs before having to fix the cam bearings.
I am still figuring out the data and will be sending it out to you guys very soon. This was a blast even though grueling. Do it again in a heartbeat though. And it is still going to continue. Tom

Well you didn't say what size carb your trying to use on the PES intake.But no dout it's to small.Secondly.Even if the clifford runners did measure the same size, There is a VERY Big difference
in the ruuners performance.Due to the over all design. When it came to intakes My 3x4 tunnel ram out performed The offey and the Clifford.Reasoning I beleive is the 90 deg. runner design.
The PES intake will need More carb.Or at the very least bigger jetting on the smaller carb.

Larry,
We were using a 600 cfm Holley. It does have vac secondaries. We tested it to determine if it would have any good characteristics for a street/ hot street setup. It certainly will not fit under the hood of my car and most other cars. The AFR were correct and it did not run lean. We tried to keep them at between 12.5 and 13 as that is what I have found works best for this engine from my experiences.

I have a feeling this intake is best suited for a engine that lives north of 5k RPM and stays there. It is crossed off my list of good street intakes.

Like to see pics of your intake design. How did it work on the street?

[quote=tlowe #1716 I have a feeling this intake is best suited for a engine that lives north of 5k RPM and stays there. It is crossed off my list of good street intakes.[/quote]
My understanding was this intake was designed for circle track racing and was never intended for the street.

Since it won't fit under the hood of most cars without using a hood scoop, it is probably a correct assumption that its a "race only" part. Maybe with a roller cam and a bunch of compression it might act differently.

Dude, thanks for the update ....I quess I "assumed" (we all know what that means ) that the tapered style lumps were used....it was probably mentioned in on of the earlier posts, but I don't think I got through them all.....encouraging news that the clifford didn't give up as much as I had been told....seems the Edelbrock for the street, Clifford for racing myth was busted.....fats

Tom thanks for letting us Q.C. boys participate on the dyno runs!!!!!!It was great working with everyone.Anyone who wasn't there I'll tell you this was a monumental undertaking,this was a well thought out process.The amount of cams,heads and intakes was impressive!Even though it it seemed like kaos some times everything was well organised.The dyno owner even had a sense of humor,putting "no more inlines" signs all over.It was a great day sun and we all had a great time and learned a lot.Thanks again!

Unless you have a loose converter that stalls to 2500 +,,, your clifford intake will not out torque the offy down low,,, especially if you are running a 250 ci engine or smaller,,,,big difference between the two intakes for a street 250 engine.

I know first hand about the two intakes,,,the offy is better suited for a street engine w/low stall converter.

As Tom stated,,2500 & above the clifford made more torque,,,most street dirving is not above 2500 RPM,,unless you have a hot set-up.

The clifford intake ,,from idle to 2500 is really weak....

Two cents thrown. IMO

MBHD

There are other ways around getting more torque from the Clifford,,,

Remember the 292 has a stroke of 4.120",,the 250 is 3.53" big difference!!

Hank,
I said nothing of the 250 motor, this whole test was about a 292.
The Clifford was the hands down winner for tq over the Offy. With the test ran and parts used (street oriented ) it had the Offy by 10 ft lbs most of the run and sometimes more. The dyno testing was set at a lower point than would be for a V8, ussually pulls do not start at 2500 RPM.
Most people do try to design their engine to have the most tq for acceleration, the RPM range for that on a 292 is typically 2000 - 4500. These tests prove it and we did it with multiple tries.

Maybe next time we can try dynoing a 250. Would you be in?


Got the replacement trial distributor lined up, will get it mounted and hit the 292 for some more info, won't get it all done till later this week. Have to catch up on Daddy stuff.

i'm confused.. are we going to see the results on here or are you going to wait untill the next dyno day? either way.. i know it took a lot of planning and hard work so i just wanted to throw my "attaboy" in there.

WOW, that's alot of work.

Good to hear of solid data for the most part so far.

Hope the "bug" doesn't turn out to be more dificult than you currently believe.

Heal up fast.

If you decide to do this again with a 250, count me in, maybe do the Edelbrock vs Holley vs multi-carb?

Justwynn,
I will be posting more results, really need to clean up all the data collected so far. Also did not get finished with all the planned dyno tests. Hopefully late this week or weekend for that.

Also anyone who sent me contributions is going to get way more info than will be posted here. It is only fair as they really did HELP even though they are not here.

A email was sent out last night to all contributors, if you were missed let me know the correct name and email to send to. My email is tom@12bolt.com .

Sean,
You guy's were a great help and very eager to get things done. Just wished the engine would have cooperated more. Wished you would have cleaned up the beans! Bob, the shop owner enjoyed talking to all of you also.

Jalopy,
I am not against doing a 250 the same way and will certainly consider it. Do not have a short block together to test. Now would be the perfect time. The heads, cams and intakes are all lined up and ready. As are all the correct tools, exhaust, ect.

The OFFY VS Clifford test would be interesting. As would the rest of the same tests used on the 292.

Who has one they want to flog? Bring it on. Tom

Tom, A 250 test sounds like a good idea. It would really be something to see the same guys, in the same place, with the same parts, do the same tests. I'll rob another connivence store. I wish my Megasquirt was done. It would be fun to throw a TBI into the mix. Almost as easy as a carb change once the sensors are in place. I bet we can find the money if you've got the time. You know there's a 250 short block out there. Beater

Tom,

I'm glad things went well (for the most part). My dad has been asking all weekend how it went and if there were any outstanding results.

I'm wondering if a multi-carb setup would provide any beneits as far as fuel distribution? Or if it'd just be more show than go in the end.

And aside from that, I eagerly await the test results, and definitley let us know if you need some more funding for another day at the dyno.

Also, you have mail.

-Sam.

How about a stout 230 short block? Steel crank, 5.7 Crower rods, and TRW forged flat tops in a .030 block. I'm willing to provide the short block for dyno duty.

With some pistons (Tom???) I could put together a 250 as well.

With those type of goodies in it, I think I see the opportunity for doing some turbo testing possibly.......

Tom:

Outstanding job (with more to do?)!

It's the time of year for us to pay property taxes, various (annual) insurance premiums, and a bunch of other things. Since I'm in check writting mode, I'd sure like to write one more to you (something worthwhile for a change) to help out with the remaining dyno time (or the 230/250 project?) if you need some additional help.

Let me know.

Russ

Thanks russ, thats what this is all about. Helping to provide accurate results for everyone so they can select the appropriate parts for their engine projects. We are revealing many good finds with this dyno testing, confirming many long time claims about some products, and disproving others, so when the time comes for people to spend their money on their projects, they will be able to go in the right direction and make the correct parts selections.

OK, guy's
Going to start another thread for the 250 dyno challenge. Lets direct any 250 info there.

I'd like to keep this one all "292"

Tom

Tom
Try dejetting that 600 down.To the jets of a 500 or 550.

Torque will be less on the 292 & for the 250 engines.

Your dyno testing did not start off of idle.

You said it started @ 2500. That is not from off idle,,,thats where I am saying you will see the difference (IE less torque w/the clifford),,,from idle to about 2200-2500 RPM

Dyno tested is good up to a point,,but testing & tunning a vehicle for the street is a bit different.

Looks like you did a good job,,congrats!


MBHD

Sounds like Leo's going to have to start the third version of the Power Manual to inlcude all this new information. COOL!!!

Chevy2, we are actually going to take that opportunity ourselves....

Hank, dyno's don't like to work below 2500 for some reason, most shops don't even go that low. They are looking for peak HP and most don't care about torque. This group of tests is about as good as gets. Sounds like each piece was given a fair chance to perform in a bolt on situation. Sure tuning might get a bit more power, but they didn't have time and the end user of the said product can do that for them self.

Your right about the off idle torque of the 292. Back when I was racing Pontiac's my 455 broke the block so I threw the heads, intake system, and cam into a 400 block. Other then cubic inches, they were just the same. The 455 would et quicker due to off the line torque, but the 400 would out mph it due to rpm. I would bet the 292 and 250 will act just the same. The 250 will make more hp at higher rpm, but the 292 will make more torque across the board.

This will be a true case of bolt on side by side tests.

Joe

At the dyno shopp again this morning.

It is running cleanly again. Dist fixed it, drats that thing cost me some time!
Just finished running a 194 head with 1.94int and 1.6 ex, lumped and ported, 270 Clifford cam. Off it comes and on to the next head.
Back to the dyno room, now , where is all the extra hands? They were here last week, miss them today. No problem, got a few guys that can help. Tom

What distributor are you using now and which one screwed up??

He started off with a brand new D.U.I. distributor, he replaced it with a stock HEI with a remote coil.

The replacement is almost stock. Does have a curve kit.

Dynoing is done for today. Ran into a snag. Screw in studs contact the rockers when lashing. It is weird as this is not the first head to screw in studs by me. need to take another appr .200 from the boss's. allready took .375 from them.

This is the latest GM casting. I have 5 of them and they are clearly different than any other late model head ever done by me.

They weigh considerably more than other castings also. Plenty of meat. Try more on monday. Tom

It speaks well of your prep that you made this many runs before finding factory crap that shut you down! Please don't quit now. I wish I could be there to help you cuss! That is an area where I excel! Beater

No quiting here!
The head has to come off, be disassembled and machine down the rocker stands more.
Then back together and run it! Going to test with no lumps, my HI-FLOW lumps and PES lumps. Should be interesting.

Jalopy and beater and Joe larson and others,
Thanks for the additional help with the financial part of this.

I heard from my lady that is doing up the dyno runs. Had her average each different set of runs into 1 run to be fair. Should get them sent out to you guy's on Mon. Tom

Tom,
Sent an additional check to help cover the completion of your project.
Bob

thanyou Bob!

Sent out in email to the contributors the results from the runs made the 1st weekend. Any questions please ask.
Remember the lower end consisted of:
Venolia forged pistons 27CC dish
reworked rods
balanced rotating assy
nearly zero decked, .041 thick head gasket, the 1.84 lump head was 70CC chamber, stock heads were around 74CC Cam specs were given out in earlier emails. if you need them also tell me.

A holley 600 carb was used for all tests. Vac secondaries.


If anyone was omitted from the email , let me know. My email is tom@12bolt.com .

Tom,

Thanks for the e-mail, and I anticipate the rest of the results.

Is there anything you need to help with finishing off the test runs? A few more bucks? A few cold ones? A c9ouple hands to turn wrenches?

-Sam

For the remaining tests, more hands would be very helpful. Need to pull the head and make lump changes, more cam changes. It is all time consuming.

With 2 guy's wrenching it took about 45 min to change the cam. Hard to believe it takes that long.

Head change was about 1 hr. 3 guy's just help speed it up. The beer goes faster too! Actually the beer was saved for later. Tom

p.s. I am still recieving funding from you guy's. Got some today from Russ king and Matt(slow65impala). So you guy's are certainly helping from across the country. This will still help with paying for the dyno time. Plan on hitting it again on Sat maybe earlier. Tom

Glad to hear the "fix" was as simple as a distributor.

Bummer to hear there are more issues.

Good luck, perseverence will win in the end.

If I can scrape up some extra cash I'll send it your way.

Thanks, nex

Got some more good news. tried a different brand of rocker stud and gained the necessary clearance for the rockers! Started her up and she just purrs. Will run it on Thursday and keep on going. Tom

Tom, When you have time can you give us the specs on the rocker studs? That is one of my next purchases. I'm looking at 7/16 BB screw ins and figured they were the same. No hurry, take care of this first. And you're right this is good news, less for you to do! Tom

Beater,
I am using BB chevy rocker studs on all the inline heads. Have been using just about any brand and been just fine. the problem we ran into is these particular castings are somewhat different, cast in the 90's. The rocker stands must be taller and thru us off with the normal amount to be taken off. We ended up using ARP brand rocker studs. The portion where the bolt head is has less thickness for the head(top to bottom). Gave us the room needed this time to clear the bottom of the rockers. This head will still get remachined after all the running. It will probably see another 25 or so runs. Tom

Tom, I am a little late but still hope you have some use for the contribution I sent.

Lennart

Lennart,
Thankyou, yes there is still more going on with the 292. It is really great to see someone help from the other side of the world!

Ran the high comp "194" head with 1.94/1.60 valves on Sat. Found out some surprises in the power.

Tonight ran a 1.94/1.6 72CC head with no lumps and boss removed, on Fri even pull it and install HI-FLOW lumps and run again, then pull and run PES lumps. Should be interesting.
Presently the cam is a Clifford 270H.

Get back to you guy's later. Tom

Just got back from the shop. The 292 just keeps on ticking!
At last compression check had 150 psi on all cylinders.
Presently using a Clifford 270H cam , lumped 1.94/1.6 72CC head and getting 280HP. It holds over 270 hp for over a 500 rpm range. Today tried mainly different styles of lumps and other intake/exhaust ideas.
Next I will change cams and try to turn up the torq. Tom

Tom,Looking at the chart you sent it looks like there are 3 cams yet to go? Will the rest be done with the small chamber head only? Will you be changing lumps or have you settled on what works? 280 is pretty serious streetable hp. That setup in a little Nova would be a Kick! Hang in there, Beater

Beater,
I am hanging in. Arms and shoulders are feeling it from all the head lifts, those things are heavy and the 292 is a tall bugger on the dyno!
Have some nice handles made by a fellow inliner that work great with 2 people. Still a grunt though.

After todays runs, not sure about the 2 biggest cams. Typically , we have been shutting down the run when max HP has been reached. Well with this cam, Max HP was around 5200-5300 rpm. Which meant revving to 5400-5500 for the dyno to get good readings. That is more RPM than I like for a 292 with it's big stroke. This one is balanced, and nothing has shook loose , yet. But these are known for problems around this rpm.

This cam has specs of .524 lift and duration of 214@ .050. So not a big cam, I was surprised to see it liked the rpm so much. In fact it sure sounds tough @ 4700 to the end of run.

The next cam is a split duration grind, with more duration on the intake than the cam just used.
specs are :
.521/.512 lift 218/212 @ .050 and 114 lobe separation.

I think it will make more tq. But that is just a theory.

One other thing is , the shop is ready to get another motor on the dyno. I have been very lucky that this is a slow time of year for them.

So this next cam may be it for this session. Tom

It must be a awesome sound at those rpms! You have done a lot already and we will have a lot to ponder, a lot more than we've ever had for street engines. Beater

It's irony that the aspect of the 292 that makes it an amazing engine, is also the limiting factor to gaining high rpm horsies. Ah well, how many people wind an engine to 6k+ on the street anyway?

Tom, you've done us all a great deal, and given us real numbers to put with parts. Even if the biggest cams don't get tested, we all know more than when we started, and I think that's the whole point.

So, thank you. And I'm especially looking forward to the next batch of numbers to start making conclusions about what'll make a nice street thumper.

-Sam.

If the big cams don't work until the higher rpms that we're not supposed to turn on the street, and we are trying to look at street engines here, maybe we learned that we shouldn't be wasting our money on too much cam. Bill Fisher spent some time in his book saying to be honest with yourself about what you really want your engine to do. This is hard for us. We are all willing to give up some drive-ability for some zip but somewhere there is a limit. ( I think ) Douglas's Brazilian Bomb is probably not what you want to take on the Fall Leaf Cruse, unless the drag strip is tree lined. Beater

It just depends on what you are willing to sacrifice. I have built several 8 second 1/4 mile street cars for some guys here, because thats the kind of power they wanted. One was even an NMCA car that got driven with slicks and open headers every weekend on the streets here when he wasn't at a race. It just depends on what you consider too radical or not radical enough.

It also depends on what "drive" means to you.

I think we all want the best of both worlds, power brakes, a/c, heat and all the comforts of a Cadillac, and the most power we can get and still retain all those other comforts. I think we have found that with the 292, 300 HP and 300 ft.lbs. of torque is pretty easy to get with just average off the shelf products. And still not overstress the engine and have good street driveability. We think the 250 is going to surpass that mark on the HP #'s, and still show to be a good streetable powerhouse.

Another update,
Today afterwork, installed the next cam and last cam to be tested. This is a custom grind with .521/.512 lift and 218/212 duration @ .050 and 114 Lobe separation. Good turbo grind.

The head is the same tested with last cam and is a open chamber design with 72CC chamber, 1.94 intake and 1.60 exh. It is mildly ported and has bolt in lumps.

After this head is tested, a 1.84/ 1.60 head with 70CC chambers will be tested in a backup test.

The engine will be run for the last time on Saturday .
Tom

Wearing me out just thinking about all that work!

Good luck Tom.

Can you see the light at the end of the dyno booth? Good luck today and thanks again. I'm sitting here by the fire in my recliner watching college football and smelling the second Thanksgiving dinner cooking. I'll think of you occasionally.
Beater

Thanks, Sam, Erik and Beater
Beater you will never get 4 or 5 piles into one at that pace!

Finally done with the 292 for now. Ran it as I wanted with the 2 different heads and cam #5.
Found a HP difference between them as expected. This cam did not perform as well as expected. When I put it in there were 2 cam bearings looking rough. In fact the old cam had to be persuaded out! That has to be eating up some of the power. Oh well the engine survived. Now to take it off and freshen it back up. Data will all get compiled now and sent out next week to you guy's that have supported me so well.

Like to say THANKS to my local chapter. At our last meeting they voted to also give me some financial support. AS of now there are about 45 inliners that have dirrectly supported me. From 5 different countries! This has went over much bigger than I ever expected. Thankyou all!

I will post more here than has been. Like to get into the INLINERS magazine and another publication first. Tom

"Beater you will never get 4 or 5 piles into one at that pace!"
Two of the piles are under snow today and there's no heat in the shop. That's a good enough excuse for me.
That engine has earned a rest. I guess you have too. You've been turning a lot of HPHs. (Heads Per Hour) Beater

So prying minds want to know Tom, what is the ultimate combination for streetable power????

Jalopy,
The paperwork is still at "the lady's" getting averaged out. Might get it back on Monday.

But here is the combo that proved to work the best. Highest HP, not highest tq. 280HP and very streetable.
Clifford Intake
600 Holley carb
Clifford 270 Hydraulic cam
292 open chambered head, HI-FLOW bolt in lumps, ported with 1.94/1.6 valves, roller rockers
Headers

There of course were many more combo's . Will wait to discuss those. So many theories were tested and need to be discussed also.

Tom

Since you mention it, what was the highest torque?

Not nit picking, just curious.

Without having the paperwork in hand. Seems like around 320 ft lbs or alittle higher with a smaller cam.
Or were you refering to this cam?

Got the averaged tests back today! Will get them emailed out this evening. Tom

Before Tom got on the dyno I proposed a bet that the 292 would not match the 4200 on power and torque...

Well we're both 1/2 right..

Bone stock 2006 4200 - 277ft/lbs and 291HP - mind you this is in full emmission trim and with the stock exhaust system. So not quite apples to apples.

I know I pickup 23 HP and 15 ft/lbs going to open exhaust during my 4200 engine dyno session earlier this year.


Lets see a good 2006 4200 can be had for about $1000-1500....

On another note the 4200 won't last for ever GM canned production 1 year ago.. Time to start stocking these away.

The early 235-261 are getting hard to find, bet the 230/292 are not far behind. I've only seen 2 292 in the past 5 years show up at the wreckers. Tom can tell you where one of then is....

I guess my point is the 4200 is most likley the future of the GM 6 as early engines disappear.

Just a quick question,how much did you spend all together w/the sleeves ,boring,cams,porting ,valve job,,, etc for the 4200 complete build?

Just so I can get an idea how much all the custom work & parts cost?

Thanks

MBHD

These 292 dyno tests pretty much all held over 300 ft lbs tq from 2500-4500 rpm. All cams did that except the stock one.

If I put a ad in my local farm paper, get 5 calls with 292's to get from combines, trucks and ag equipment. Most are allready pulled and stuck in the barn.

Tom

Sent out the dyno reports for the second batch of runs. let me know if you were missed. Looking forward to hearing from you guy's. Tom

Thanks for the dyno reports. Makes me wonder if lump ports are needed on a supercharged engine.....

Tom, I got the final sheets and the info will save me and others time and money with our builds. Thank you!!!!!!!!

If you print those all off and compare them. There is some interesting details for sure.

Sorry about the tq drop at about 2800-3800. The secondaries were opening too soon, but this had no effect on max HP. Could have seen about a 5-8 lbs increase in tq without that.
For the 250 runs this will be taken care of.Tom

Tom,

Do you think LP pistons would have bumped the numbers up any, and if so, how much?

-Sam.

Dyno day for a 292.......301 Replies...... 7175 Views !!! Now, that's a great thread. Needed some more just like it so this board don't just sits dormant for days....Jerry

Jerry is absolutely right. This thread has livened up this place. Thanks Tom and Scott for turning on the light! Beater

Sam,
I think the Lp piston would be a better way to raise compression to get performance. Also milling a open chamber head would be good.
Probably another 10 ft lbs with the bump in compression. Some say a 3% gain per point. Maybe more. You saw the #'s with the "194" head?

Scrap and Beater,
This has been alot of fun and really helped put #'s with performance mods done to the 292.

After the article is done and another done for the INLINERS mag, then I will post a summary here on the BRD. Really like to see as many become full fledged members as possible. There is alot to gain for us all. Tom

I'm in the process of printing out all the #s. Some very interesting findings! What is great for me is to see that I was pretty much on track with my build using Information gleaned here from those who really know. Just goes to prove that this BB is the spot for us to meet. Just a few bugs to squash and we can get on with it. Beater