Greetings . . .
Ever see a 235 head modified to mount 3 Rochester's through the top of head?
eBay Item 310185431210How would you not hit water going through the top of the head like this?
Now I've seen everything.
regards,
stock49
Yeah, theres water on top of the intake ports right there. Musta' used some type of pipe threads on the stubs the carbs sit on to seal in the water jackets. They might even have welded it or something as well.
After looking at those type heads, this seems reasonable to get better flow down to the valves. I'd like to look at that head closer. We could learn a thing or two. Tom
It made sense to someone. I wonder if it worked? I'd like a closer look also. If someone here gets it I hope they share. Beater
Price is right - looks like who ever did it was 30 years ahead of his time - must have been a real off the wall thinker. Straight shot at the intake ports!
I hope some one here get it and puts it on a flow bench.
It would make a nice cup holder near the Hemi bar-b-que. I hope we don't all bid against each other so some rich guy gets it and puts it in his "collection" of never to be run again speed equipment. Is that the stock valve location? I wonder if you could do that with 3 Webbers on a 270-302? Or 3 TBIs.
Given the geographic location, we might think that this head was built for an engine running on a circle track -- "stock" cars or "jalopies" -- so it had to hold water, at least for more than a few minutes.
Are those some kind of freeze plugs in the intake ports?
Surely this head is worth disassembling to see how it was done and how the head might flow. It would be interesting to learn how it ran, and if it did, how well. Whoever attempted this conversion was thinking, and like many old-time racers, he may have had more ideas and skill than money.
God's Peace to you.
d
Inliner #1450
Hmm...
So, who wants to attempt a recreation of this? eh?
And, is there any chance this would actually work?
-Sam.
That’s way cool and one very interesting way to eliminate the short side turn. It looks like he never got it to seal completely and I bet Scott has it pegged that pipe thread was the method.
Curt, I bet it would work once you get the kinks out. Might be something to look at, at some point.
If you screen capture the image off ebay and blow it up a bit it looks like some welding may have been involved in the process.
The fabricator appears to have grafted two inch risers onto the head (like those found on a Fenton dual) - complete with studs so that the carbs can bolt on.
I am curious about internal sealing as well - a threaded nipple is certainly a feasible approach. But I would think the the top of the head has more thickness for threading then the roof of the intake - so sealing the bottom with threads seems dicey. The old speed manuals warn about 'taking to much off the top' when porting.
As for the original intake ports - they look like they have been stuffed . . . old world engineering indeed.
Almquest used to sell flanges to make multi carb set up for Ford and Chevy manifolds. We should pick one guy to bid on this and kick in to answer our questions.
I know Ed Almquist, I should give him a call and pick his brain about this type of mod, and see if this is something that was actually done back in that early era to these heads. He might be sitting on a wealth of knowledge about some of this older vintage stuff that might be forgotten by others. He still has the patterns for his original dual carb adapters he made back in the 50's. Pretty cool guy....
There’s a rib running floor to ceiling in the jacket directly above the throats that would supply stability by providing 2 areas where a thread would be complete to both sides. No room to go in the top is a myth as like I say there’s a rib there which has a min. 1/8” transition radius onto the floor of the jacket. I’ll claim you can raise the roof .15” and still maintain .100” wall. Right now I have no picture upload ability but this looks pretty good. Thanks again for posting as those pictures are keepers.
No more worries about intake heat and plumbing with this head.
I like the matching valve cover, but would not run those leaky Rochester Bs.
"We should pick one guy to bid on this and kick in to answer our questions."
i don' do no eBay, but i should gladly contribute to that project.
God's Peace to you.
d
Inliner #1450
Huh, looks kinda like a hacked up Rajo head.
Only ever heard of 2 of those in existence, and they were for a 216.
Speddy Bill supppsedly has 1, a lady over on the HAMB has the other (she drives hers).
Rajo cast 2 sets of ports, 3 in the stock locations, 3 up high like that. It ran a dual carb intake for the 3 lower ports and another carb up high for the other 3. I forget which was supposed to kick in first (the pair or the single) but it was set up progressive, whatever was secondary was supposed to kick in around 30 MPH, IIRC.
Or at least that's what it looks like on the tiny screen on my Blackberry.
If it was sealed thouroughly that could make a real street screamer on a stroker 261 (290+).
I think I seen a head that was modified simular to this in a stock car {1953 or 54 chevy} at the Tohomo, WIS. speedway in the mid 60's. Can't remember details but that car ran hard as I remember. Well being a inline fan it caught my intention anyway. I am interested in this head, if I would get it I will share imfo. 1 OL REDNECK
Darrell,
Where is Tohomo? Or is it a typo?
I'm wondering if it'd be worth playing with something similar to a 250/292 head?
-Sam.
Darrell may have seen a Rajo head.
Rajo head on display.
Here is an ad for a Rajo head from the
December 1952 HRM.
Gentlemen;
If Harry Warner is still around,
he would know about that head.
I vaguely remember drawings or
talk of it but; I can't really
remember which it was, or when/
where etc.
Probably was an experiment that
someone that worked in a Foundry,
tried "way back when".
Warner & Bob Toros were both in
Burbank, Ca. on Victory Blvd.
in the 60s
thats goofy ,wonder if it works?
Hoyt, that is a beauty and seems to hint at some of the thinking behind it's low buck counter part. I still can't tell if the valves are in the stock location. One of the top pictures seems to show the valve springs in a row and the other looks like they are in two rows at an angles. Who's bidding? We will respect your bids if you will share info. Don & I will even help you pay for it. We shouldn't let this get away without someone getting a good look at it. I don't have a 235, I don't want it, but I want to know about it!
Scott, I have several Almquest catalogs. What an incredible variety of equipment was made in th '50s-60s! I never heard of them in the West except for references in magazines. When we actually get to meet remind me to tell you when I first heard of Almquest. Tom
Sorry SAM! Tohoma isn't a typo' it is just DAMN poor spelling. lol. I can't find my atlas right now but there is a town east of Sparta and fort Mc coy called tomah. I think that may be a better spelling. HEY! This hooked on phomix really works.It may have been a RAJO but it seems to me all three carbs were on top of the head. If I remember the RAJO had one on a stock manifold and 2 on top of the head. Please under stand this was 40-45 years ago. I'm watching the head- it would be 1 hell of a conversation piece next to my NICSON head. Also if it is a Quality peace I might be able to try it on my 261" which I can't do with my NICSON due to head bolt numbers.
Oh yes now I looked at the above posting and see the RAJO ONLY SHOWS 2 CARBS. Maybe I don't remember anything right. One time I seen a HEAD in WIS!!!! IIRC the one I saw had three carbs because I had a buick and wondered how it was done. 4 on a straight eight??!! 1 OL REDNECK
Well darn, now that I see it on a larger screen I see the GM casting # in the last pic.
I don't know that the RAJO had that (probably not).
For those that might wonder how I could confuse the two, here are a couple pics that were posted over on the HAMB, of a member's ride that has a running, driving (last I heard anyway), RAJO head.
Yeah, the dual intake is a Fenton, but check the single intake behind (and above) it.
Not mine, cool as all get out though.
I was thinking that since I could see the ports for the stock intake it might be one of these with the upper ports hogged out to mach the carb throats and the lowers plugged. Guess not.:(
There was a company that used to do this to heads way back when (50s i am pretty sure), usually seen as 216 heads. I think that the company was called palimino or something like that. I have only seen one. Welded tube through to the intake chamber if i remember correctly. this may be one of those heads or it may be homemade, hard to tell.
IMO it appears to be backyard engineered. How ever it looks doable to me. I had really forgot about the one I saw till I saw this on ebay. I'm rude & crude but with a little researce I don't think it would be all that difficult. Being a modified stock head, would this be considered a stock type head at b'ville or a special , or aftermarket head? Would it move up a class? Anyone thinking out there? 1 OL REDNECK
I'd like to see inside it. We may have to talk Tom Lowe into a 235 Dyno Day to test this and other stuff! Could there be a way through the top to separate the Siamese ports? With today's welding technology it might be fun to duplicate. Beater
Making a billet 2 piece head like that guy that does the flathead Ford stuff....what's his name.....anyone. That wouldn't be too difficult to make a good 12 port style head that way. I know Curt could do it. I could if I had more machine time available at work. I have access to real high end CAD/CAM software like Curt also. Maybe that would be a good winter project to draw it up. Both Curt and I already have the bore centerlines and head bolt hole locations already, so we might be closer than I think to do that....what do you say Curt, how about a billet 2 piece 12 port head.
The "848" is a stock casting number for a 235, it's the highest compression ratio available. This is probably a homebrewed affair, which is not necessarily a bad thing. A conversation piece to be sure! Wasn't there a carb system called Man-a-fire or something like that, which had the carbs sitting right over the intake ports. There wasn't enough time for the droplets to vaporize and they ran poorly.
Armond,It is Man-A-Fre direct port carburetion. I've seen a V8 set up at EMMR and of course the most famous one sits in Milner's 32 from American Graffiti with 6 Rochesters(or Carters)on a 327. I've never seen one on an Inline although there is an outfit supposedly making them for Toyota Off Road.
There wasn't enough time for the droplets to vaporize and they ran poorly.
But if someone new how to put a Megasquirt together
and used a few single barrel TBIs on something like this it might work well. Beater
I don't know about the street- but when I was young and exciting I drove a sprint car owned by Carl Lagant from Countryside IL. who had a bobtail sprint with a man-a-fre intake-4x2's {97's} on alky on a sbc and it would hall A#@^&. Run with any injection around at that time. Really looks like the same concept to me. 1 ol redneck
It’s a shame that head is so far from me but my cut up one will allow me 2 attempts at coming in from the top so for sure I’m going to try something. If an Inliner gets it I’ll loan or make them a flow bench adapter plate in return for sharing what it flows. An all new 2 pc. head sounds interesting too.
Just happened to see this thread. One of our Inliners, Bob Palmini, from Calif., now living in San antonio, Tx. Made and drag raced a set up like this in the early 50's. He said it would run within a tenth of a second of a 12-port. He left the stock carb., started it on that and had a progressive linkage to kick in the top three. He's an interesting guy. Raced 6-cyl. cracker box boats against the flatheads, Ran the Carrera Pan-America in 54', had a dyno facility in So. Cal. in early 50's. Mickey Thompson built a few engines there. He'll be giving a talk at the 2010 National convention in June.
I am backing out on bidding on the head. I think seeing the idea again and Curts pictures I can figure out what I want do know. I think its a great idea and if it could be done then it could be done now. 1 OL REDNECK
In an "Accessory Trial" in the March 1952 Motor Trend, Griff Borgeson reported that the Rajo head increased the horsepower from stock 80.8 to 101.1. - do lump ports give a 25% increase? It had just the additional carb which could be adjusted to come in at any speed.
Price $169.50
Will
If your meaning the bolt-in style lumps, then yes, we measured a considerable amount more than 25% HP gain with them in the later siamese heads, when compared to a stock small valve head w/o lumps vs. a large valve head w/lumps, both heads being large chambers. There might be some gain with the older heads trying to put lumps in them, but you have the limitation of still having a small port opening.
i am interested in whether "lumps" can significantly improve flow, horsepower, and torque in a GMC 302 or 270-H head. Those ports should be large enough to establish a difference . . . or not.
God's Peace to you.
d
Inliner #1450
The Siamese branch in the older head is very much “T” shaped and quite different from the “V” in the later head and the builders helping me didn’t think a lump would provide any benefit there and that altering the short side turn radius to resemble that which is on the lumps would be best. They did however suggest a “turtle” on the back wall might be something the flow bench will like. On Saturday I plowed in from the top of a head and milled a NPTF dryseal pipe thread and would give it about a 70% chance of sealing as is. Drilling the holes and then a bit of brazing on the inside lip of the hole to increase the thread surface a few turns before milling should put that at 100% so a Rajo type conversion looks pretty easily doable.
With the welding processes out there now, would it be unreasonable to make and weld in a lump or splitter to make more of a "V" than the "T" that is stock?
I figured that would be one of the primary benefit of that mod; the other being a more or less straight shot at the valves.
Do we know who got this head?
Curt keep us up on how you are doing on your head. Beater
One more reason to make the 2010 Inliners Convention in Boerne (Bernie) Texas in June. Mr. Palmini will be there along with his scrapbook and pictures of his modified head, with which he drilled some serious bent motors back in the day. Mr Palmini is a gentleman of the first order and I believe he will give a short dissertation that will enlighten us all. He also owned Spalding Cams prior to selling the Company to Mr. Ed Iskenderian. Most interesting man. I'm sure there's more to the story.
SOB
SOB, Is there a chance that the "dissertation" could be videoed? It would be great to have this kind of information available on this site. I would like to get to the convention but right now I don't think it will happen. I hope someone will do an indeph interview of MR. Palmini for the 12 Port News. Beater
Bill
I also think it would be fantastic if the tech talks could be put on tape, as I won't be able to make it to Texas this year. I have a previous planed weekend in Colorado the same dates. I will miss seeing everyone but can't be in two places at the same time.