I'm a 15 year old and I got my first car a little over a month ago. It has a chevy 250 in it. I've been thinking about putting in a few different performance upgrades but I want to run it by some people who know more than me. Here they are...

Intake - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/OFY-5416/?rtype=7
4 Barrel Carb - Some Holley Carb. Probably a 390cfm. You guys think it could take any more cfm if I used a performance cam (the next thing on this list?)
Performance Cam - Either a 268 or a 280. Which one do you guys think I should use?
Headers - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BIG-11510FLT/

And a couple other ideas I had were... a 292 crank because I heard somewhere that you could mod the block to use a 292 crank in a 250 block (what would that involve?). Maybe a 194 head for higher compression. and installing lump ports (what would that do?)

Any of your ideas or helpful hints would be great. Thanks

Putting a 292 crank in a 250, while possible, is rather complex for a first engine. You would be better off with an offenhauser 4bbl intake, the 268 cam, and some shorty headers with 2 1/4" dual exhaust. That would be a nice running little 250 that wouldn't break the bank.

That was probably going to be my plan but I would probably have 2.5" dual exhaust. Any idea what type of HP that would produce? stock is 160HP so what would that be? 250HP? or am I shooting for the stars? What would make the 292 crank that complex?

Check out the Clifford Engineering web site. Clifford at one time had pistons maybe a kit to put a 292 crank in a 250. The block and cam has to be clearanced internally for the rods.

IF the exhaust pipe is too large you won't create enough back pressure for the headers to flow properly.

Do you Leo Santucci's "Power Manual"? You can find it on the left under "Club Stuff".

Larry

Check out the Clifford Engineering web site. Clifford at one time had pistons maybe a kit to put a 292 crank in a 250. The block and cam has to be clearanced internally for the rods, for starters.

IF the exhaust pipe is too large you won't create enough back pressure for the headers to flow properly.

Do you Leo Santucci's "Power Manual"? You can find it on the left under "Club Stuff".

Larry

Going to be dyno testing a 250 next weekend! Look up the post and start reading.

The 292 crank will require alot of bank breaking parts. Building the 250 will put a smile on your face. Or you could really put a 292 under the hood. Tom

You didn't tell us what the 250 is in. The headers are for a pickup so thats probably what you have. I think Tom's dyno tests will show us some interesting numbers. Personally I think your choices so far are fine, Offey manifold, 390 4bbl, 268 cam, flowmtech headers. I'd use the stock head with 1.84 or 1.94 intake and 1.60 exhaust valves. The big inakes will have to be unshrouded. I'd remove the bosses and install lumps. I'd probably get a set of forged V8 pistons and use them and head shaving to get the compression from 9 to 9.5 to 1. Don't use the stock fiber cam gear. I'd use stock GM HEI ignition maybe with an MSD 6A. Get Leo Santuci's book and prep the block well. This is about as cheap and easy as it gets and it would run well. There is a lot of good information on this site in old posts. It is sometimes hard to find, but it is there. What trans and rear end do you plan to run? Welcome to Inliners. Join our club we need the young blood! Beater

I was looking into putting in a 4 speed muncie and having to cut a hole into the floorpan. Right now I believe I have a Saginaw 3 in the tree. I have a low geared non-posi in there right now. I think the gearing is just below a 2 which doesn't seem right but aw well. I might eventually get a posi if I have the extra money laying around. I don't know if I said this before but I have a 69 Buick Special Deluxe and looking at it now, those headers won't work. I'm looking into joining the club but I need some money first! :-)

I think you would be better suited to either build a 250 or a 292. The 292 crank in the 250 block will work, but as has been already mentioned, creates some issues that really aren't beneficial for dependability and longevity without spending a lot of money. The 292 dyno testing that was done previously yielded right at 300 HP and up to 330 Ft. lbs. of torque, with simple basic components. So getting 250 HP out of a 250 shouldn't be that difficult either. As tlowe mentioned, those dyno tests start next week, so keep watching for updates as it progresses. Welcome to Inliners.

Putting a 292 crank into the 250 has been known to lead grown men to drink; out of the question for a 15 year old....we'd like you to be around for a while so stick with building the 250, you'll be surprised....welcome to Inliners.......fats

Alright haha. I'm helping my dad building up a 68 GS 400 and I'm just looking for a fun engine with a lot of umph. I would also like to give him a run for his money but am I just dreaming there?

If you do have a Saganaw 3 speed and it has over drive don't let it get away! The OD can be put on a Saganaw 4 speed and you'll love it. Get a set of short cast headers from Tom Langdon or Patrick's. My son got his '54 Stude wagon when he was 15. You and your dad will have fun. Beater

No it doesn't have OD. I just has 4 shifting points in the column: R, 1, 2, and 3. Would it be hard to put different gears in there (or is it even possible)? Could I convert that transmission (that is in the column right now) into a floor shifter? What would be the differences between a 3speed Saginaw w/ OD vs. a 4 speed Muncie?

Floor shift conversions have been used for years and are available for 3 and 4 speeds. The OD on the Saginaw is contained in a special tail housing on some 3 speeds. It is activated by an electric solenoid and a governor system. That three speed uses the same case as the Saginaw 4 speed so the OD can be put on the 4 speed. That gives you 5 speeds or 8 if you want to play with it. All of the older standard transmissions had a 1 to 1 ratio in high gear whether 3 or 4 speed. The 4 speed usually just makes the ratios closer between low and high and allows you to use the engines power band more efficiently. They can help turn a quicker 1/4 mile if you can shift. There were some close ratio 3 speeds that were pretty quick. The ODs are usually about .70 to 1 which either reduces engine RPMs by 30 percent at a given speed or raises speed by 30 percent at a given RPM. In the late 60s the Saginaw 3 and 4 speeds were all the same length even if the 3 speed was OD. They will bolt into your car. The 3 speed OD would use your column linkage. It might even be possible to shift a 4 speed from the tree if you shifted reverse separately.(sort of a pain) Some people lay much praise on Muncie 4 speeds. They are lighter, more expensive, and somewhat stronger. No trans will stand up to constant abuse. I ran a hot Olds in front of an early Ford drive train and eventually learned to drive it. It was a hand full. I hope this helps. I think it's mostly true. Beater

If you get a Muncie ,,,I would not suggest a close ratio (2.20 1st gear ) one especially if you have 2. somthing rear end ratio.

You would absolutely hate the initial take off in first gear.

I did not like it even w/4.10 gears.

Better off installing a T-5 tranny.


MBHD

Actually now that I've been looking a little bit on Craigslist, I was looking into getting a 4 speed saginaw w/ a Hurst shifter for about $200. I was also wondering... Since the final gear would be a 1:1 on the 3 speed and 4 speed, then how could I make my car more efficient? When my parents are driving their cars on the highway in their '09 cars, their RPM's are barely above idle (like 1100 or something). Now, I don't have a tac, but I'm guessing I'm running like 3000 RPM going 65 down the highway and my redline is 4500. Is this normal? I mean I understand that automatics work differently but it seems that this would make all manual cars DRINK gas. I mean going on a 65mph highway for like 2 hours would use up a tank. I'm already using an INCREDIBLY low gear... and a 4 speed wouldn't help so how can I make that any better? Thanks

Like I was saying a T-5 trans would work nice.

There are different ratios & they are all overdrive 5th gear.

What rear end ratio do you have 4.11?


MBHD

You are about right on your RPM at 65 mph. I'd say maybe even a little higher 3300, depending on tire size. If we are right about the RPM you have a 4.10 rear axle.

You have two choices change the rear axle or install an over drive. As Hank says a T-5 is a good choice. There are a lot of folks using them and they are fairly common. It might not be the best choice if you are going to get a big engine and bang gears or haul heavy loads. Then the choices near a bit NV4500, MY6 (A833) are a couple, unless you want to consider an automatic.

Larry

As Hank said pick a trans with the right ratio. You need to know for sure what your rear end ratio is. If you are lucky it will be on a tag on one of the differential cover bolts. If not it may be stamped somewhere on the center housing or one of the axle housings. It will for sure be stamped on the ring gear. $200 isn't bad for a Saginaw 4 speed with a Hurst shifter if they are in good shape. I like the 3.11 first gear for my pickup with 3.55 rear end and 30" tires. My 270 GMC likes to run a 3000 RPMs but I like for to run closer to 2000. With OD I'm at or near 2000 between 70 &75 mph. Here are a couple of tables you can play with to help you sort things out. And again as Hank keeps saying there is the whole Borg T5 tranny swap. That may be easy in your case if you have room for the long tail shaft and don't need the short S10 tail shaft so the shifter clears your seat. But there are some changes. The saginaw should bolt right in. Beater

trans ratios

Gear ratio & tire size

Well I really want to use either a saginaw or muncie tbh. I also DEFINITELY want to keep it a manual. I locked up 1 tire and turned the other and the drive shaft turned just over 2 times so it is geared INCREDIBLY low. I'm confused, is OD an installable gear or is it an extra gear in the way it is built or what? Why isn't it just called a 5 speed? I've found a working saginaw 4 speed and a working muncie 4 speed w/ hurst shifters for about $250 (each). Could I use the same bellhousing for all these trannys? And just a general question about I-6s... would they be in any way comparable to a v-8. Like I said earlier in this thread, I want to give my dad a run for his money with his suped up V-8 so I just was wondering what I was expecting to get out of all of these upgrades. Thanks

Double check how to determine the rear axle ratio. The way in which you did it requires that you multiply the number of turns by 2. I have 63 C20 with a 4.10 rear axle at 65 mph I'm turning 3300 RPM. If your ears are correct your guess of about 3000 RPM is correct, you have the rear axle ratio 4.10.

You can use the same bellhousing with those transmissions.

Larry

If you have 4.10s you will need over drive. That leaves out the Muncie. The Saginaw is the old school approach. The T5 is newer. A T5 may be the best way for you to go because the parts are easier to find. The solenoid that fits the Saginaw is hard to find and expensive. Maybe half the cost of a T5. There are some posts on this site about using then behind 250s. It takes some work but it isn't too hard. Here is some Borg OD info. Beater
Borg OD

I don't know if you ever said what kind of car your 3 speed trans is in, but most of the GM compacts (Chevy Nova, Olds Omega, Buick Skylark, and Pontiac Ventura) all used 3.08:1 rear end gears with six cylinder engines, except for the station wagons, which had 3.36:1 gears. I think one of the first things you should get is a tach, so you'll really know what your rpm at a given speed is, and the second thing is to get a copy of Leo Santucci's book and read it before you start buying parts.

GM pickups did use lower rear end ratios than cars did, so if you have a truck, it may have a 4.10:1 rear end. I have a '68 Mustang with a 3.50:1 rear end in it, and it turns 3500 rpm at 65 mph according to the tach. One of these days it'll get a 5-speed. Back to your car, though, one of the main things involved in building a hot rod, or just modifying what you've already got (which is pretty much what you're doing) is knowing what you're starting with and figuring out what you want to do with it and how to make everything work together so it's fun to drive after you get finished with it.

You would need to lock one tire & turn the other wheel one full revolution,then multiply how many times the driveshaft turned by 2.
So,if you counted the driveshaft turns a little over 1 & 1/2 turns,you would multiply that by 2 which will be 3.08s

If you want any advantage & give your dad a run for his money,you'll need to gear all the gearing advantage as you can get. A T-5 trans will give you better take off than any muncie.

There are some Saganaws w/a low first gear, but no overdrive.

You should be able to find a used T-5 in junkyards,or Craigslist or friends or?

Any other trans are going to cost you some $$$ like a doug nash 5 speed (think they have a new name now?)
T-56 6 speed .50 OD? which would need an efi to use 6th gear unless you had like 4:88's
Just off the top of my head,so not too accurate,but I think close enough?

MBHD

alright guys. Sorry I haven't replied. I spent 7.5 hours yesterday under my car right after school:-). I'm replacing the clutch right now. Got the driveshaft and tranny off yesterday. Got the bellhousing and pressure plate/clutch off today. Gonna start reassembly tomorrow (and hopefully finish). Back to the task at hand...
I'll probably end up going with a muncie because I've heard those are more reliable than saginaws and to make up for the high revs, I'll probably get a lower rear end gear because I do think that I have a 4.10. But what should I be expecting out of this? I mean I know I already asked this but if I do everything short of a super/turbo charger then what kind of HP/torque and I looking at with new intake, 4 barrel carb, headers, and high performance cam (and lifters, springs, etc.). Is there anything else I can do really? I've heard about installing lumps but didn't understand what they do. Also what would be the effect of installing a 194,230, or 292 head? I know you guys are going to tell me to go get santucci's book but just ballpark it for me plz ;-). Thanks

The 250 was factory rated at about 155 hp. With the addition of simple bolt on parts, 4 bbl intake and headers expect about 175 hp. Put in a small performance cam and get about 200hp. Perform headwork, Bigger valves, porting, bolt in lumps and get about225-230hp. Put in a big cam and you will see 275-300 hp.

No "194" high compression heads for me. They will not work well with larger valves( shrouded valves)

I am about to dyno a 250 with just these kinds of parts to test performance gains. It all starts this weekend. Tom

You'll make 200-250 HP @ the crank.

Using a properly set-up 194 head you will gain 1 point of compression & make more torque.
Dont let anyone tell you different.

If you go w/a bigger camshaft your cylinder pressure will drop & therefore making your engine sluggish.

So if you are going to install a bigger cam, you always want to increase the compression ,so you will @ least have the same cranking compression as before & the simple way to do this, is to install a 194 cyl head.

Two cents thrown

MBHD

what would installing a 194 head involve? Does it bolt right on? So like remove -> replace gasket -> put on new head? I also don't get how the cam or head would change compression. I thought the compression is determined by the amount of travel on the crank. And wouldn't the smaller ports on the 194 head actually decrease performance or cause the engine to drown by having the gas liquidize before entering the cylinder? Inversely, by that logic, wouldn't putting on a 292 head add displacement?

Displacement is not measured by volume in the cylinder and head chamber, rather it is the measure of the amount of volume that is 'displaced' by the piston as the it moves the min height to max height in the cylinder, i.e. stroke x ((bore/2)^2 x Pi) = displacement for an ind cylinder. By putting on a smaller chamber head it means that there is a smaller volume to be compressed by the stroke, thusly, increasing compression and conversely the compression will be lower with a larger chamber head.
Displacement and compression are two completely different measures.

I believe that before you make head and compression decisions that you need to determine you cam lift & duration, valve spring and valve decision.

Good luck. It's nice to see a kid 'dare to be different' and stick with the inline.

the 250's were reated anything from 140-155 hp. As for compression pistons come in different dome(top) shapes a dished piston will have less compression then that of a flat top or what is called a POP-up/domed piston.The Ports on the 194 head are the same as 230,250,292 heads The difference is the underside/Compression chamber or Quench area of the head.
The lift and duration of anyone givin cam also exfects your compression.Installing a lump kit to your head helps improves the short turn raduis issue the stock head has.By improving this
it does increase the air flow of the head. The 194 can give up to
a 10-1 compression and with the proper head work can flow as well
as any other head ,And you don't have to mill a boat load off it
to get the same compression or the use of a pop-up. A flat top
piston can give you better performance over a dished piston,But it will not give you more compression with out milling alot off any other head 230,250,292.A pop-up can give you much more compression & performance. But the spark has to pass over the dome,You can also fire slot the domes to help the spark get to the compressed fuel.
So if your after a small gain in compression with the stock dished piston, A properly done 194 head can give you just that.

if you are going to install a bigger cam, you always want to increase the compression ,so you will @ least have the same cranking compression as before.

This is very important.
However, it's frequently just not possible to completely recover the lost low-speed power by raising the static CR, unless you increase the cranking pressure quite a bit.
Just an exaggerated example: a 250 with 9:1 static CR and conservative 55° intake valve closing (at 14.7 psi ATM) will show about 154 psi on a gauge, producing perhaps 245 ft/lbs. of torque at 1,000 RPM (47 hp).
If the intake closing is delayed to 75° (quite a bit), the pressure falls to about 125, only 169 ft/lbs. of torque at 1,000 RPM .
Raising the static CR to 10.6:1 brings it back up to 154 psi, so that's fixed, right?
Nope.
The same cranking pressure is acting on a "smaller" cylinder due to the shorter effective stroke at the new closing point, and only making 204 ft/lbs., still much less than the stock engine.
To get the same torque at 1,000 RPM, the static CR would need to rise to 12.4:1, with 188 psi gauge pressure.

Yes, it's complicated

Overall, what I was trying to say was, just dont install a bigger camshaft & not do anything else.

Many times people just look @ installing a bigger camshaft & do not realize that the bottom end will most likely suffer a bit.

They will read a camshaft estimated HP you could get from it & not even think about you will loose by gaining more top end HP.

As I am reading what the guy is looking to do & not tear open the bottom end & change pistons or do other things as to raise the compression ratio for more power. He seams to be interested in @ least changing the cyl head. ,,Correct?

Changing the cylinder head is the most practicle way of raising the compression & easiest IMO.

Any good cyl head shop should be able to know how to & where to unshroud the intake valves in the small chamber head to get it to flow good.

I was just suggesting a way to somewhat recoup your cyl pressure loss do to a larger camshaft installed. I did not say you will recoupe all your losses.

He wants to whip his dads ride,, I say do what ever seems possible w/in a budget,while using his stock shortblock.

Gearing is another choice & in his sights,that is why I suggested a T-5 to have an advantage over a Muncie gearing wise.

If his dad is using a 400 CI engine & a Muncie 4 speed, what advantage does the little 6 w/a Muncie have over a 400 CI engine,,,nothing really,, other than the L6 is lighter.

So basically what I am thinging this guy is on a budget & wants to think & do things to his car to whip up on those V-8 thingys.

MBHD

Alright. My dad has a 68 GS 400 that we're rebuilding to a little over the stage 1 performance package. So nice big cam, headers, quadrajet, and it's probably going to be bored a little over since its old. Not sure if he's turning the crank. Probably like 390HP or 400HP when we're done. He's going to be using a turbo 400 transmission so that puts him at a slight disadvantage because it's an automatic.

I finally finished putting the clutch, tranny, and driveshaft back in today. Went driving for like 10 minutes and I was actually kind of disappointed at how slowly it accelerates in 3rd. I know it would probably perform better if I had a 4 speed because of the wider range of gears, I could use the higher RPM's more. I want it to be fun and not like... "i'll get up to speed eventually..." and "where is this thing called 'torque'?". I want it to be "punch you in your seat" torque. I don't really see what else I can do short of a turbo/supercharger besides what I said before: cam, intake, carb, headers, and maybe the head. If I got a 194 head, would I need premium fuel? Not sure what the point of this post was but it was just my ideas and a question or 2...

If you are looking for that kind of "seat of the pants" acceleration and sensation, you might consider a 292 instead of a 250. All of the dyno tests that Tlowe did, showed that from just about 2000 RPM on up, with all the combos tested, the engine never fell below 300 ft. lbs. of torque until way on up in the RPM's.

You could use regular gas,depends on your camshaft selection w/the raised compression.

Right now,you probably have between 8.2 - 8.5:1 compression w/a stock head now.

A TH400 trans is not really a disadvantage over a 4 speed.
More consistant,1/4 mile runs,easier to drive,etc.

Yeh,the 3 speed hurts/kills the pull when you shift into 3rd gear,rpms drop too much,I know ,I had the same trans when I bought my car.
There are different ways to help your 250 run better, but you will need to sacrifice something most times to gain something.

Like if you want more torque out of it,raise the compression,(might need to run 89 octane) more top end,camshaft,keeping the engine closer in the torque band,5 speed.

292 would be nice,if you want a torquey stump puller.But,how much does a 292 weigh over a 250? Adding weight also slows down your acceleration.

MBHD

"where is this thing called 'torque'?". I want it to be "punch you in your seat" torque

You're re-reading the same page again, looking for something that's not there.
Torque = displacement (and some compression thrown in). All that speed equipment does is raise the RPM at which the torque occurs.
250 vs. 400: guess which one wins?

Panic is right, theres no replacement, for displacement!

While boost will make more power, enough boost to beat your pop's GS (if it is "warmed up" at all in the engine department) will take a dedicated build of the engine (boost specific) and drivetrain to make them all survive.

Neat goal to be sure, but you'll have to work that way in increments (ie, lighten the car, better gear and posi, beter trans, solidly built longblock) if it's to be any kind of "budget" build. (yeah, I hated that advice too when I was your age )

alright guys... looks like my final consensus of your answers and a few of my own ideas are...
-4 speed (because I didn't want to get an automatic like someone suggested)
-probably a posi and I'll probably get it a little lower than a 4.10 maybe 3.83 or 3.53.
-intake and 4 barrel
-headers
-cam it up
-194 head (I'll probably need some help on what to do to the head once I get it)
-HEI distributor

So thanks guys. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. This is going to be a daily driver and I'm not looking to DESTROY my dad. I just prefer not to run like an 18 and have him run like a high 10 or something in the quarter. I understand that "there's no replacement for displacement" (which is ironically is a saying that I first heard from my dad a few weeks ago). I'll hopefully make some vids of my progress on youtube. I've already made a vid of my car if you guys want to see it http://www.youtube.com/snowman4839 . That was when it was bone stock but I've put some rally wheels on it (because they just happened to be really convenient for me to buy) and my dad helped my adjust the timing. I've also replaced the clutch like I said. I don't want to replace the 250 with the 292 because it's a matching numbers engine and I prefer to keep it that way. Thanks for your help guys and the warm welcome into the inlining world :-)

because it's a matching numbers engine

You're already modifying everything else, and I have yet to see someone refuse to buy something nice "because the numbers don't match".

Your car is great!
I love most any Buick from 63 to 72. I'm currently working on a 64 Wildcat (I hate to admit on this forum because it has a nailhead in it).

If I were you, I'd keep the 250, keep reading, save some money and crank your 250 upto 250 or better horse. In that lightweight car, I'm sure you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Definitely do something with the three speed. I know your pain. My son and I just did about the same thing you your doing, except we did it in a 67 Chevy C20 (quite abit heavier than your Special). We ran it in the original form for about a two months before we started tearing it apart and, I have to say, the three on the tree was unbelievably AWFUL to deal with. Absolutely no power on the highway until you hit 55 or so (several minutes into the acceleration), we were in disbelief that it was made with that trans and engine in such a heavy truck.
We put in a T5, and WOW, what a difference. Then we went through the engine and that helped more than the T5 did. I strongly recommend the 5 speed.

In case you forgot how I started this - that is GREAT car in great original shape.

The nice thing about a hot rod build up is that you don't have to do it all at once. You may find it easier to do if in sections. I looked up your make model and year and it said a six came with 3.23's. Which would be a good match for you. I'd double check it to be sure. Another thing is what kind of gas you'll be using. While a higher compression ratio 194 head may help the compression, it won't help your pocket book unless it's dirt cheap. Also, be careful, some 194's came with Siamesed exhaust ports. They haven't made them in years. You might be better off using 307 flat top pistons and the stock head. What ever you do, enjoy the fact it is a unique car that's all yours.

Just a quick comment.
The 194 cyl head I used when my car ran the best normally aspirated ,12.1 compression,happened to be a Siamesed exhaust port type.

I will double check if for sure, as I had a few 194 cyl heads lying around.


MBHD

well I don't mean it like that. I just want to keep the block. That was the basis that it was built on so I want to build on it even more. I don't plan on selling it any time soon ;-).

actually, now that I look at the T-5, it looks like a fantastic option over a muncie or saginaw. But here are some concerns... It looks like it was used in 80's-90's cars so would it still fit the splines for my driveshaft and clutch and would I need a new bellhousing? Because that seems like a LOT of money.

T5's came in S10 trucks also, and they seem to be the better choice for swapping in to other early trucks because of shifter positioning. I see them in the classifieds in our local paper and craigslist all the time for less that $100 bucks from time to time.

Snowman,
Way Phat video you made, I like the pop-up comments.
Over the years I have found at least one practical use for high school math and physics - I built my own computer program for torque/horsepower and et/mph. So I applied my "DeuceCoupe Gonkulator" to your car, and your dad's Stage 1.
The Car Life road test of a 1968 400-T400 Stage 1 shows
14.40 at 93.0mph
My Gonkulator computed
14.80 at 92.2 on its first try, and
14.47 at 92.6 after upping traction a bit.
About the only practical change that helped was a modern 2-1/4 Flowmaster or SuperTurbo exhaust, computed to
14.30 at 94.0
So, if your dad runs a well tuned stock Stage 1, that is what you'll be up against. Can it be done?

Well, nobody road tested a Special 250-3spd that I know of, but the Gonkulator computer said you will run:
18.38 at 72.3mph
If the engine is in good shape I'd suggest taking it to the strip and try it. You'll never get that bone stock data again.

I swapped in a T5 and 4.10 posi for a computed
18.05 at 74.4
That is actually a big improevement, but there is so far to go.
Note, I've not done a T5 swap (yet) but per your questions above, if you can, hit the yard and get everything from flywheel and bellhousing through the driveshaft. A good yard will make a nice deal on all that stuff, then you have it all.

Well back to the story. Your 6cyl now finishes the 1/4 mile about 400 feet behind your dad's car. It would be hard to tell a Skylark from a Chevelle at that distance. What to do?

If you're following Tom Lowe's 250 dyno test series in the long thread below, Tom's first step is a stock 250, plus 4v, plus headers. I did this to your computer car and Gonkulated:
Stock 68 Special, 250-T5
Single 3" exhaust or dual 2-1/4"
250+4v+headers
16.51 at 82.0mph
That will feel like a whole new car and will now give some 289 Mustangs a good run but not your dad's Stage 1.
So I went right for the limit -
The last dyno run Tom plans is a fairly mild 250, with a low boost Turbo. I put this very streetable engine in your car and the Gonkulator said:
14.23 at 96.9mph
You and your dad will be right even to 60mph, but you should finish about a carlength ahead. A race that close is a real rush, my wife has had one or two of those herself and loves it.

I didn't think that mild turbo would take on the Stage 1, but if Tom Lowe's dyno results turn out like the Gonkulator says, it is possible. Stay tuned.

Nice car BTW!

Thanks DeuceCoupe, I have a question though... what is 4v? when you say "250+4v+headers"? 4 barrel? and I don't plan on putting a turbo in it because of the expense and my FIRM belief that turbos should ONLY EVER be put into 80's+ cars.

Back to some T-5 questions... would the length of the tranny and the position of the shifter be a problem for my bench seats? for people who haven't read... THIS IS IN A 69 BUICK SPECIAL DELUXE (with a B post). Which is a coupe. NOT A TRUCK. and what new stuff would I need as opposed to going with a saginaw (which I already have a 3 speed of in it) or muncie? Wouldn't I need pretty much a new drivetrain besides the rear end as in the clutch -> bellhousing -> tranny -> and driveshaft? I just checked and the clutch plate center diameter needed for the t-5 is smaller by a 1/16 of an inch. Could I use the current mechanical clutching setup I have in the car now? or would I need to get a different one for the T-5. Besides those questions, what is specific to a transmission? I'm assuming the clutch plate and driveshaft for sure because of the diameter and splines but what else? Thanks.

I like your car snowman. Brought back memories of a '72 2dr post Skylark I used to have.

Snowman,
Yes, 4v means 4-barrel.
Well ok, if you don't want to go the turbo route, the other top combo that Tom Lowe plans to dyno is a 250 with a barely-streetable cam and Webers. I do mean streetable, I ran a cam that wild in my old 2-liter Pinto of all things. It was liveable, at least in Northern CA. Not sure how it would be on a sub-zero NW Illinois morning though.

So I gonkulated the cam+Webers combo in your car, with a 4.56 gear and the T-5:
14.32 at 95.5.
Once again it will be a close race, but you'll need the 4.56 gear and T-5. And, I bet the Weber setup would be as pricey as a turbo, since you have to build the 250 either way - to survive the turbo pressure, or to survive the 6500rpm shift points of the Weber combo. It is just hard to get a 250 to keep up with a 400 Stage 1 in the same car body!

haha alright. I hear ya. What would be the advantage of 3 singles over a 4 barrel? It seems like the 4 barrel's secondaries would help the most with performance but then again this is my first car and I can't exactly compare my experience... And you are right. It would be INSANELY expensive.

LOL, there is NO way I can run a 4.56 in a daily driver. and I actually doubt it has a 4.10 in it. But when I replace the rear end and put a posi in, it will probably be a 3.83 or a 3.50something. But the BW T-5 having OD will help. But I really need those questions I asked in my last post about the T-5 answered so I'll know how expensive it'll be and if it'll even be feasible to put it in there.

My plan right now is for my dad and I to go to the GS Nationals in middle May and see if they'll let me run the 1/4 mile there. I checked around all of the tracks near memphis and all of the strips near here that are within 2 hours are ALL 1/8 miles. So hopefully I get that bone-stock run in and posted on here. Then in maybe 2 years right before I go off to college. I'll go to the GS Nationals again with my dad and run it again after all of the upgrades.

One thing I have found with T5's and performance. They are weak. The good stock ones, behind Camaro V8's are rated at around 300 ft lbs tq.
I have used one in a Chevelle from a mustang GT (also broke it with a V8) , but my chevelle had bucket seats. Shifter came up in almost the exact proper location. A muncie will put it in the perfect location. My dad has a 66 chevelle that came with a 4 speed muncie and bench seat, so the shifters for bench seat were available.

Just look & see all those 5.0 Rustangs had T-5 trans,they can take a bit of abuse from a V-8 302.

Sure they all will break after you keep beating on them.
There are world class T5's which are better.

But honestly,your 250 6 will not put a beating on the T5 like those Fox body mustang guys put them through.

They (fox body mustangs) have what you call recipe suspensions,put a few upgrades of rear suspension upgrades ,slicks,or sticky DR's & the run 1.6 60 ft times,which is pretty hard on those T-5's but they still lasted a short while.

Like I stated earlier,,,I don't think you will put a beating on a T5 trans like those mustangs do,,,,unless you get serious about drag racing your car,that would be a different story .

For an everyday driver & reasonable price,(I assume you dont have an endless bank account) The T5 is a very good trans,,,but if you beat on them,run slicks & side step the clutch @ 5000 RPM,just like almost any trans, they will eventually break.

A T5 from a V-8 application will be a better choice.

I used a couple T50 5 speed trans from a Chevy Monza(4 ,cyl models),super low 1st gear,like .95 OD in my Camaro 250 6 ,they would have lasted a long time if I did not beat on them.

Bought those from junkyard cars. Made them look like a 3 speed(hung a couple linkage rods on the outside) so I got them for a lower price $75 ,this was many years ago.

This was also the time I got the best mileage w/those tranys,21-22 MPG.
W/the T-5 you can cut @ weld & reposition a shifter handle where you need it. Because the shifter location will be a bit further back than w/a muncie.
With todays gas prices, you should get a trans & take advantage of one w/an OD.


MBHD

Now that I look at it. How on EARTH will that huge thing fit into my car? It looks like it is a lot bigger than a saginaw and I don't think there is any way that tranny crossmember is low enough to fit it. What would I need to put it in?

Read all you can find about T5s. There are lots of variations in strength, ratios, OD ratios, clutch splines, shifter locations, bolt patterns,and opinions about how well they work. At this point I have a built one from an S10 in my '53 Chevy pickup with a strong 270 GMC in front of it. I have abused it and it is still there. The rear gears are 3.55s. First gear is a bit too low and it is a tossup as to which gear to take off in. The shifter is so sloppy that shifting back into first instead of third from second is a worry. The OD in it is the lower of the choices. I have the stuff to fix the shifter and I have a 3.08 rear end to try. My son's '54 Stude wagon Has a WC T5 behind a supercharged built 300" Stude V8 and 4.27 rear end. It made several round trips from Nevada to Texas pulling a U-Haul at 70-80 all day and got around 17mpg. The rear end became the weak link. Go to out Tech Tips and read the T5 Page for starters. There is a lot on Stovebolt and the HAMB. Beater

Agreed, look over in our "Tech tips" there's an entire section along with a link or two. Not as hard as it seems.

Would a 500cfm edelbrock be too big for my 250 with headers and this cam? http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-K61-246-4/ Do you guys have any suggestions for another cam?

That is a big cam. It will have a nasty idle. I think their RPM range is off (1500-5500) Bet it is more like 2200-6500.

The 500 will be OK but a smaller 4 bbl will work better. Maybe a 390 holley.

Maybe pick a cam with .050 duration of around 210-215 and lift under .525 . Tom

X2 ,that cam is pretty stout for your engine. Too much IMO.

At the most 218 @ .050 w/Rhoads lifters,or a solid tappet (but you'll need to adjust the valves once in a while )

I used a few sets of Rhoads lifters w/a few Clifford cams,never liked there cams BTW.
The Rhoads sounds cool like solid tappet cams, a little loud,but to each his own.

I switched to solid cams strictly for better performance over hyd cams & they definately did that.
I don't mind adjusting the lash once in a while.

I tried a few quadrajet carbs ,Spreadbore style,never could get it to run that great,but I am pretty sure if you could get one sorted out they could run pretty good a long w/decent mileage.
They ran those carbs (Stock)on the Ponitac L6 230 & 250 engines w/10.5:1 compression (off the top of my head)

I will say when I tried the Quadrajet carb w/the Clifford intake manifold the carb did not get a strong signal to work that great,it was however a little bit more driveable/streetable w/the Offy intake.

The factory Sprint 215 HP? Pontiac 4bbl intake resembles (SP) the Clifford intake. So I think that GM had the Quadrajet figured out for the Pontiac L6 230 & 250.

MBHD

Alright. After reading around a bit and looking at my options... I am COMPLETELY lost. I never thought about a lot of the factors in choosing a cam. Can someone break down the important parts of a cam and what type of lifters, pushrods, springs, etc. to get? Like sounds and performance and everything.

By "nasty" do you mean unstable or cool sounding or what? I always seem terms like that referring to the idle but I don't know if it is a good or bad thing.

What type of stuff would I have to do to the 194 head to use a nice performance cam?

Thanks

Carb, sure. You can run that even with the stock cam.
I am doing it right now with a 500cfm Autlite carb. A little big but the cam and other stuff will grow your engine into it.

That cam is a little wild, but if you can still ponder that T5+4.56 rear it will work. (That rear is not so bad - with a mild 0.75 overdrive of the T5, you have effectively a 3.42 gear which is liveable even on the freeway. And, with that cam, your engine won't be happy cruising much under 3000 anyway.

Here is what the Gonkulator says about your Buick, stock 250, Clifford and 500 Edel, Headers, Stock cam, T5, 4.56:
Torq 219 at 3000
Powr 168 at 4700
16.72 at 80.5

Now add the Comp 230-230 cam:
Torq 231 at 4000
Powr 218 at 5500
15.81 at 86.1

Yup, it works, at least the Gonkulator thinks so.
I'd go thru the engine first though since I was shifting the Gonkulator at 5800, pretty high for a tired original 250.
Next up would be a fancy cylinder head.

When you say 500cfm on your Autolite, is it a 4 barrel? Also, what would be the advantage of a 4 barrel over a 2 barrel in a 250? It seems like whenever you opened up the secondaries, it would just drown it. But you think after everything and the cam, a 500cfm 4 barrel wouldn't drown it if I floored it?

Snowman,
Yes the 500cfm Autolite I'm talking about is a 4-barrel, a "1.12" Autolite 4100 used from 1958-1967 or so. Vacuum secondary, like the 390 Holley. 500 Edel "air valve" secondary is similar in that it opens only when it wants to, not just because you floor it.

Advantages of a 2-barrel (the kind where both barrels open at once) for the street are:
1. They are cheap.
2. They are simple.
3. They have fewer idle circuits than some 4 barrels so can be better on smog.
4. They work great on 3x2v multi-carb setups.
5. They make great parts carbs for 4-barrels.
6. Good door stops, too.
7. They are also great if a 2-barrel intake is all you have.
I can't think of any other advantages of them.

Now, a PROGRESSIVE 2-barrel, like the 5200 Holley/Weber, the ex-Pinto etc. carb, is a good street setup. Only one barrel is used for cruising, but then when you floor it, both barrels open when you ask them to (it is a mechanical secondary).

Like any mechanical secondary progressive carbs (2-barrel or 4-barrel), sure you can bog the car by opening all the barrels at once. So you just have to ease into them on launch. The advantage is, on shifting a stick car, when you floor it again, they all open NOW, not fractions of a second later which could cost you the race.

Note the other guys' responses on that 230-230 cam - 'nasty' means if you floor it much below 3000, it will quit - literally. That nasty. At idle it will be tolerable on warm summer days with well-behaved carburetors, but 'nasty' when not warmed up. Nasty there means so rough it will load up in the wintertime and flood at some of those long, long traffic lights, stall, and you won't be able to start it again for maybe hours. It will sound really "Phat", but not very liveable. It will run like a big block v8 though, in that you'll be stopping for gas every 100 miles or less.

I just Gonk'd that cam for you because you will need to get pretty "nasty" with that 250 to keep up with your dad's Stage 1 car, else use a hair dryer (turbo). Or "NOSS".

Yup, you have a lot of choices to make, easiest would be to be happy even if you don't run 14s like that Stage 1 car. One of the best times I had in high school was helping to get a friend's 326-2v / powerglide Tempest from the high-17s to the mid-17s by adding a 4v. It still wasn't a "money winner" on Telegraph Rd back in Michigan, but we were happy with what we did, that's all that matters.

Snowman,
You have alot of decisions to make, but, unless your indendently wealthy, I think you first need to determine what's your budget and then determine where to get the most bang for your buck.
p.s. - I think that is alot of money for a cam kit. I purchased my entire engine kit that included a Comp Cam and Comp Cam lifters for $415. The kit included all name brand parts - Cloyes, Durabond, Clevite, Sealed power, Hastings. Shop around before you give up your money. Spend it on a set of Langdon Headers or some head work instead.

Again - good luck and remember

well now you've made me want a dual two barrel setup. Are there any good intakes for that setup besides a offy 5414 (or maybe that was a triple...)? I looked at clifford but didn't see one.

And as for the carbs... do you guys have suggestions? My price limit for each would be maybe $125 used for each. I found an edel 500cfm for $98 used but how would you compare that the edle 500cfm + 4 barrel intake vs. dual 2 barrels + intake in the categories of price and performance. (I know I'm kind of backtracking on my other questions but in this particular comparison, what do you think?).

What would you guys suggest for a cam since apparently I don't really know how to pick one? I was looking at comp cams but now I'm kind of lost as to which to choose. http://www.compperformancegroupstores.co...e=CHEV466Cam194

And by the way, for those of you that have headers on a 250 or the like, how did you get your headers to go out the back? The only headers that I've found that would fit a non-truck 250 have stopped at weird angles that would be nearly impossible for me to find a way to weld pipes out the back. Would these http://www.cliffordperformance.net/Merch...egory_Code=C250 be too long for a car or would it not make a difference whether it was a car or truck? because something like this http://www.cliffordperformance.net/Merch...egory_Code=C250 would be hard to weld up an exhaust system because its angles.

Thanks

I hear what you are saying. I've already thought about this a good bit but as of now I have a little over $150 and I've been looking around on craigslist and ebay for good prices. My plan as of now is headers/exhaust system -> intake/carb -> cam/lifters/springs -> other stuff (with transmission somewhere in there which'll probably be a christmas present or something) -> other engine stuff -> have a soda -> watch tv -> body work. Alright the last couple of things were a joke but I'm not particularly concerned with how it looks right now.

The hotrod headers will fit your chassis. I have used them in a chevelle. It is hard to keep them sealed up.

I recomend a small 4 bbl( 390 holley list 8007) and a Comp 260 cam. That is a start and then work on the head. That is where you can gain some good power too. Tom

by hotrod headers, do you mean the truck headers? http://www.cliffordperformance.net/Merch...egory_Code=C250 because I know the other ones will work but it's a matter of getting pipes to come up to the right place but the truck headers are already at the bottom which is much more convenient.

And why do you reccommend a 4 barrel over 2 2-barrel setup?

What kind of stuff could I do to the head? Get a 194, install lumps, and...

Send your 194 cylinder head (when you get one) to Twisted6 , AKA Larry, or Sissells, Mike K, to properly unshroud the larger intake valve you would install into your 194 small chamber cyl head.

Do you want a solid camshaft or a hyd camshaft?

MBHD

What do you mean unshroud? and I'm not sure what the difference is but my first instinct says solid. And I was thinking about getting the 268 comp cam.

whenever you opened up the secondaries, it would just drown it

Backwards.
Carburetors don't regulate fuel, they regulate air.
Engine demand controls the fuel.

So for a clear cut answer... If I ran...

Maybe triple single barrel intake - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/OFY-5414/
or
Maybe dual 2 barrel intake - Are there any?

3 singles or 2 barrel(s) - Any ideas on a kind or CFM?

268 Grind Cam - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-K61-244-4/
Headers - http://www.cliffordperformance.net/Merch...egory_Code=C250 (would these fit?)
Heads - Ported and polished
HEI Distributor

Would all of those work together and make some kick ass power? :-) Thanks

We are always tempted, especially at the beginning, when we are hoping to make more horsepower, to assume that if some modification is good, more would be even better: "If some's good, more's better!" It is not always so.

You have received some wise counsel from experienced hands on this forum. Start with a small four-barrel carburetor, a relatively mild camshaft, and headers. Get that combination to run right, and you will see an immediate increase in power. Then, looking for more power, you can work on the head -- porting, lumps, larger valves, more compression, whatever. Once you have all of that working together, then you might be able to use a more radical camshaft and more carburetion. It is far better to make progress in stages -- and much less expensive -- than to go all-out at the beginning.

All of these things cost money and time, and the "more" is also more complicated and more difficult to tune and drive in traffic. If you try to have "more" before you have mastered "some," then after a few misadventures on the side of the road you are quite likely to pull the whole thing out and buy a "350" from the salvage yard. That's where many of us have accumulated some of our less expensive parts for inlines, from folk whose "want" exceeds their knowledge and their "wherewith."

You can likely make some serious power with the combination that you have suggested. You will do well to get there in stages, learning and paying as you go. We hope that you do good and do it well. It is hard to watch someone learn the hard way.

God's Peace to you.

d
Inliner #1450

Haha thanks. It's just that I'm going off to college in a few years and I'm not going to have hardly any tools after then for a long time (probably about 6 years since I'm planning on getting a masters in computer engineering or computer science). So I just want to get everything I can done so that I can be done with the engine and mechanical stuff when I leave for college (at least til I graduate and get my own tool collection started). So I don't have a whole lot more questions but I'll probably think up some soon. I just got a fair amount of money from selling some iPhone parts so I'll try to buy Santucci's book. Thanks for all of your help guys! :-)

Snowman;

I have a 1971 Chevy Nova that is very similar in size to your Special. Take a look at the links at the bottom of my sig and check out the pictures of my car build. You can see what the 4bbl and manifold look like. Also see how you could do the exhaust from the Langdon's dual cast iron headers. Mine is a 250 as well with a Saginaw 4 speed that has a 3.11:1 1st gear.

When you say that, do you mean that it would bone-stock or after all these upgrades? Because I can just run on the primaries until I get all of the other stuff

That cam is as big you could go w/what you are looking for,,,but,,,, you need Rhoads lifters to use that cam.
Or go w/a cam of about 210-212 degress duration @ .050,, & not need Rhoads lifters.
Comp cams will grind any specs you want for a cam,just another thought. Like a cam w/a lobe separation of 112 degrees instead of 110,,, to smooth out the idle,a bit more streetable & help bottom end power a tad.

Honestly,I would use the Langdon cast iron header manifolds, less headache,should not get leaks,,will last a lot longer & most likely would not be down much on power as compared to tubular headers.
An Edelbrock 500 CFM 4 bbl carb,less problems,as compared to Holleys. Plus Edlebrock sell a complete tunning kit for that carb also. Metering rods,jets, springs ,etc.

Cyl head,as I stated earlier,& a must get if possible ,, the small chamber 194 head,to raise compression, & lumps & larger valves.
HEI is good.
For the most part,the polishing on cylinder heads is just mainly for cosmetic reasons.

As stated earlier ,you can do these upgrades in stages,,, easier on the wallet.

MBHD

Now here's what I don't understand... If these http://www.stoveboltengineco.com/acartpro/product.asp?productid=171 are the headers you are talking about, how on EARTH am I going to get pipes welded up to go out the back? Because then I would need to get a pipe that is bent at like 63.524692 degrees whereas those truck headers are already pre-bent from the factory and I would just weld up 45 degree angles easily for the under the car stuff.

pull the whole thing out and buy a "350" from the salvage yard

This happens way too frequently: "buyer's remorse", when they look at the cost per HP and realize what a bargain even a used V8 is.
You should only be considering this if you understand that this is not a cost-effective way to make the car fast (which is nitrous), but it's an excellent way to make it interesting, memorable, fun, and educational. You learn nothing by putting in a crate motor.
I'm working on a 1937 Harley engine, which will probably never make more than 70 HP (original is about 38) instead of a shovelhead, blah because it hasn't been done and I'm inventing it as I go along.

Well I don't really want a V8. I want to keep the car original because I'm kind of sick of how people take some crap car, stick a huge engine in it and think it's cool... because it's not. What's cool is making the best of what you have. I was given a 69 Buick Special Deluxe with a Chevy 250 Straight six... and I'm not going to stick a 455 in it and get a new paint job and think I'm the cat's pajamas. I'm going to keep it original (unless the block gets destroyed somehow) and make the best of what I have. As long as I'm happy, then it's all good. And it is also an incredibly rare combo (250 and 3 in the tree stick (which I'll make a 4 or 5 speed)). My dad has been messing around with 68/69 Buicks forever and he has never seen either one of those things in any of the cars he has seen and he's owned 5 or 6 of them (all 350s or 400s). And it's just going to be fun to take people for a fun ride and then pop the hood and show em what's been throwing em around. Like I said, I'm going to make the best of what I have and I'm going to have a hell of a good time doing it.

Go for it snowman! Looking back at this thread I think you had a better plan before we started "helping" you. Beater

"Like I said, I'm going to make the best of what I have and I'm going to have a hell of a good time doing it."

This is the spirit and the intent that we love to see!

Go to it, young brother. Enjoy life while you can. It is good that you have the support of a caring father who's going to let you learn what you can, making the best of what you have been given. i hope that inline makes you glad.

God's Peace to you.

d
Inliner #1450

I've been following this thread from the beginning, and you remind me of me, when I was your age. I'm 22 now, and still not any wiser.

Basically, have fun with it. It's an old car, so it's going to attract attention regardless. It's like a '57 chevy 4-door I saw at a car show last year. Unmolested, with a 235 and oil bath air cleaner. Sure, it have a bit of scuffing and "patina" around the rockers, and the paint was faded. But this sucker was a survivor! Prettiest one there in my opinion - much neater than the high dollar frame offs everyone else was entranced with.

Like everyone else said - start small. Get yourself an intake and exhaust. The Stovebolt Headers are a great piece, and the pipes get bent up to them at whatever angle. Easy to remedy, have an exhaust shop mandrel bend them, and fab the rest, or buy a handful of angles from a parts store, and start trying to make it work. If you have more time than money (like me..and a lot of other guys) then you get creative. The truck headers would need to be sectioned so that they didn't drag on the ground, street sweeper style. Not saying it can't be done - hell, it's what I'll be doing with my Chevy II, because I already have a set.

After the bolt ons, and driving that around for a bit, find a cam and get ready for that swap. Pick yourself up a spare head, and get some work done on that WHILE you are still driving the car. Lumps, bigger valves, a bit of porting, etc. When you tear it down to put your new head and cam (unless the cam is already in) think about maybe putting some 307 flat top pistons in it, to bump the compression.

Bit by bit man, don't jump into this and get swamped and over whelmed. You'll end up discouraged like the rest of the fair weather old car fans. If you can see immediate results, though, it really does boost your moral.

You have a neat car, thats in amazing condition. Have fun with it, learn, and be young. You have your whole life to have a "perfect" car. So, make the best of it, and use whatcha got.

-ahem-.

My apologies for the long winded post.

-Sam.

Snowman,

That is one sweeeeeeeet car. Your video was outstanding. You are justifiable proud of your ride. I would be proud to own it.

Love your enthusiasm. We need more young people like you geeked out about a plain jane old school runner like yours.

Again, that is a great video and car.

hey guys. Just something I was thinking about. I noticed that the shifter for a T-5 is in the back and I was wondering on how I could fit that into a car with bench seats because I just eyeballed it and it would come up from under the seat? I found a working t-5 today at a drag strip my dad and I went to for $250 but unfortunately it sold. and also what other stuff would that conversion to a t-5 take? Steering column, clutch plate, (maybe pressure plate?), and a shortened up driveshaft?

To move the shifter forward you need the rear housing from an S10.

So if I find a T-5, can I can buy it and then just look for a tailhousing of an S-10? So does that mean that all T-5s are the same besides the gear ratios and you can interchange all of the tailhousings? About how much would a tailhousing cost? Thanks

You might be able to do a search on here and find some links that can help with some T5 interchange info for you.

Cool project and story....good luck!

The tailhousings are interchangeable as long as you arfe using 'non world class' (GM) transmissions. There are several S10 T5 on e-bay now. You wnat to find one with a mechanical speedo. You can buy a converter for one with an electric speedo drive, but those converters are expensive. They are referred to as 'Cable X' converters. They will cost you more than the transmission.
I found mine on Craigslist for $100. Try to find one from a V6 S-10. Be patient, they are out there.
You can download a service manual free from TTC Technologies Inc.

Good Luck-the T5 conversion is the best thing you can do for a street daily driver. I can lug my truck down to about 17-1800 in 5th gear and drop it into 3rd gear and have the RPM's be right at 3600 or so, smoothly, and be right where my HP comes in.

Snowman,

Go to the 'Tech Tips' section of our website and check out the T5 pages, they show the different T5s available and explain the S10 conversion.

Tim

Make sure you engage the parking brake when you put the car in Neutral and get out.

I'm actually looking at getting a muncie m20, m21, or m22 because a t-5 would require a COMPLETE conversion of EVERYTHING. I mean, cross member, bell housing, driveshaft, clutch, and flywheel. I don't have that much money :-(. The muncie would pretty much bolt right in (besides cutting a hole in the floor pan). I'm still confused on the bell housing availability and what can go on what. How will I know what bellhousing to get? I know that the muncie and saginaw are the same but for other transmissions, how will I know if the bellhousing that came with the trans I buy will fit the 250?

Thanks

Ok,just make sure it is not a close ratio Muncie,you will not like the 1st gear sloooooww take off.
That's a 2.20 1st gear.

MBHD

You can use any chevy car bell housing V8 and L6 are the same. There are 10.5 and 11" clutch bells also. either will work.
The car bell will have a hole that is 4 5/8"
A truck bell will be 5 1/8", do not use this.

m20 wide ratio trans
m21 close ratio trans
m22 close ratio trans

If you already have a 3 speed bellhousing,use that one.


MBHD

Just a thought, I think earlier you were wanting a 292 crank to up the 250's cubes.....and said youd rather not do an engine swap cause the engine/tranny is numbers matching.

You could yank the block/tranny, bag it and stick it in a corner somewhere, then drop a 292 in it with whatever tranny you like.

Numbers matching doesnt always mean as much as you might think but this way, you could benefit from more cubic inches now and have the 250 waiting, should you wanna drop it back in, give it to the next owner.

Personally I would use a 153 tooth flywheel 10.5" clutch disc.

Heavy lb diaphram type pressure plate.

I have not checked prices lately ,but I would think a Muncie would cost more than a T-5? Anyone?

Buy a cheap used turbo,methanol injection. It's not that hard or complicated to do.Holley fuel regulator.
Just a thought.

Buy a SPA turbo exhaust manifold & blow through a 2 barrel Holley,simple easy ,much more power than a cam, headers,increased compression etc.

Or use a stock exhast manifold & a "J" pipe up to the turbo like this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSB2uvlOOtQ
This was an ultra cheap set-up,,, probably less than $300 for all used parts.
I gave him some tips for parts to use.


MBHD

Well I've actually been seriously considering putting a turbo on but wouldn't I need to do a bunch of internals work like get stronger pistons, rods, crank, and all that bologna? Because if I remember right, 5psi is the normal for boost and 5 times the normal amount of mix which means 5x stress seems like it would make it fall apart. And also, I've only found one turbo exhaust manifold which was like $500 from brazil. So I'm not sure how you got $300 for the setup but $500 for manifold + $200 or $300 for the turbo = $700 or $800.

And would that be all I need? The exhaust manifold and turbo?

And why would I need a methanol injection? What does it do?

Lastly... a turbo would eliminate the ability to have a dual exhaust right? Because I heard a straight six with headers and it sounds AMAZING. But I saw a video with Tom's (Telowe2000 I think) el camino and, no offense, but it sounded... undesirable.

Just my thoughts. Thanks guys

Quote:"Or use a stock exhaust manifold & a "J" pipe up to the turbo like this one." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSB2uvlOOtQ
Seroiusly,this guy maybe spent $300.00 & put it all on a stock high mileage engine.
Methanol will supress detonation + it adds a high octane fuel into your engine.
You will need a oil feed line to the turbo & a drain like to the oil pan. & other small items.
I can help or guys here can help .
If you are serious about it,let us know,I can recommend some turbo books to read.
You are correct about the sound of a turbo w/no muffler,most guys thinks it sounds like a$$. No offence.

You can have dual exhaust like Buick Grand nationals & T-Types have,it's just for looks, because they only have a single turbo stock & therefore only one signal downpipe that splits into dual exhaust.

For a low boost set-up on your engine,as long as it is in OK shape,5 psi will not kill it,,,,,detonation will though,quickly.
That is why I recommend a methanol injection at the very bare minimum.
I also recommend a J&S safegaurd,,here we go again guys

MBHD

Tom also has a video of the latest 250 dyno test with the turbo setup on it. Its hard to get good sound quality on a car at the track when your not standing right next to it, so dont let that cloud your decision. You can also check out the July 2010 Car Craft which is already on the stands. Tom is called on to give some expert consultation for a big turbo article featured in that issue, and is mentioned many times in it. I would have posted a link to their site, but it hasn't been added to their site yet. He also is a dealer for the turbo manifolds you need.

Hear it for yourself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTS0smggZnE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJrjxYih3sQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kc7bi7t308&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ07GsfLCu8&feature=related

Sounds good huh.

Give me a break about expert consultation.

I think someone guided them (Car Craft) to Tlowe for expert consultation, I highly doubt a magazine went out of there way to find him,I could be wrong I guess.
No offense.Take a breath & count to 10,this is my opinion.

He thinks the 250 on the dyno a .96 turbine housing is perfect,,,,,,wrong,,,unless you just want top end power with no balls on the low end,,,here is a good example of the wrong turbo installed w/too big a turbine A/R.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WB8kXA68FE&feature=related

No offense to Douglas,did not have another first hand knowledge example. ,IIRC 15.7 @ 135 MPH.

And no,he did not stall the engine & no,he did not let off the gas pedal,,just too big A/R on the turbo,camshaft was too big also.


Remember him stating a .96 A/R turbine housing was perfect,could go bigger if need be.
And that recommendation was just from running the engine dyno w/out even knowing have it would react in a car.


If that's the case,then w/his 292 (bigger engine than the 250)he should try out a .96 or a 1. something A/R on the 65 Elky,see how he likes that w/his low stall converter. Answer,he will not like it.

The engine dyno load will be different than an actual car driving load.

I think you need to know first hand knowledge on what works & does not work on an actual vehicle.
He has a perfect test bed to do these tests on different size housings,,the 65 turbo elky. He should use it.

If you want to be in a mag it's not hard.

It's really easy if you give free parts,or labor,or even let them mod your vehicle & test it/beat the crap out of it,,,no?

Also,,,snowman does not have a lot of $$$$ he is trying to put together a very low dollar combo.

Smowman,if you are reading these posts,do not install a .96 A/R turbine housing on your stock 250,the boost will come in real late & you will not like the everyday driving of a slow spooling turbo.

MBHD

You'd be surprised at how many writers for car mags have been lurking on here and other forums. Thats how they find sources for many of their articles.

.

And what do you think im saying.

.

This place has turned into a complete soap opera.

Yes, I have written freelance for(4) car magazines previously, and was a staff writer for several others, and had my articles printed in all of them. But what im saying about magazine writers lurking on here, is that, it is no secret that a former Hot Rod magazine editor is a member of the HAMB and several other car forums. Its common now for writers to search out forums that are related to the stories they want to write about. So its possible that this is how Car Craft found Tom. Plus when you do a google search for inline Chevy 6 and turbos you will also find him that way. You just never know who sees what you talk about on a forum.

Your turn again to stand on the box.

I think : snowman4839 would not be upset about this banter.

He himself is not sure which way he wants to mod his engine,we have been going around & around here on this post with all differnt types of mods & ways to go,so untill he is set on which way to go,we will settle down & get real serious for him & you.
Thanks so much.

MBHD

I'll get on!

Yep Jeff Smith contacted me in just the way CNC-DUDE says. Got a email one day out of the blue, we correspond with each other and next thing you know , were talking on the phone. Quite surprised to see it printed.

Now if I can just get the dyno stuff printed

Tom

I think the turbo would be a good compromise for him. He could do a relatively mild inexpensive turbo install, and as long as he stays conservative with the tuning, it should provide him with a lot of bang for the buck. As Hank has said many times, the methanol injection can be a real life saver in the long run.

.

.

He told me he did a search for inline 6 turbo chevy. I have also looked and it is easy stuff to find.

BTW, the .96 housing on the dyno 250 was used for a few reasons.
1. It was a good turbo I had instock and calculated to be about the correct size.

2. The .96 is a great size for a inline 6 250

The engine was at full spool before 3K rpm. What else can be wanted? It was also a throw down dyno test to just show what a turbo can do.

From what i have seen/search He is not a dealer any lonnger for these intakes.And the 2 US venders Say He's not even on the List.

X2!

To everyone - stop with the silliness. Put yourself into Snowman's situation. Several of you guys appear 'silly' about who know's best, more or whatever.
Snowman is looking for good, constructive input and I'm relatively confident that some of the previous posts/posters have lost/forgotten the purpose of their original posts to this thread.

Just my opinion and I do not need nor expect responses either negative or positive.

PANIC X2

Haha thank you JimW. I'm just looking to get my car fun and drivable. Right now I'm working on getting the exhaust and intake manifolds cleaned up and put back on with a new gasket. But like I mentioned in my other thread I need those little clamps that hold on the manifolds. Where would I get those? Or is that a junkyarding thing? I checked NAPA and AutoZone but neither had em.

But back to performance stuff...

Right now, performance-wise, I'm hesitant to buy anything because I'm still trying to understand what all I need to buy for a turbo car. Like I don't want to buy an intake manifold or headers and then realize 5 months later that I have to sell if for 60% of what I bought if for because I need something turbo-specific. If I'm right, all I need is the methanol injection stuff, turbo, and a turbo exhaust manifold right? And I can just get a clifford racing intake for a 4 barrel. Or would you guys recommend a 2 barrel? And before you answer the 2v4 barrel, keep in mind I'm going to get a much larger cam. So would a larger cam keep the engine from getting flooded with a 4 barrel? or would a 2 barrel just be safer or what?

And can I get the turbo exhaust manifold and then just run it naturally aspirated before I get the actual turbo? or is there a giant hole that can't be plugged without the turbo being attached? And does a turbo setup need a muffler? or does the turbo act as a semi-muffler so that I wouldn't need a muffler?

And what order would you guys recommend getting these parts so that I could get each one, have somewhat of a performance gain that I can notice, and then not have to plug up holes or have it destroy another part?

I was thinking
1)Intake
1.5)Carb
2)Cam/lifters/springs
3)Turbo manifold
4)Turbo and Methanol injection stuff

Does that sound about right?

Lastly, what is the differences between turbo types? I'm just looking to get a used turbo off of craigslist or out of a junkyard or something that I can afford. And you guys were saying something about .96 turbo I think. What is that and how does it compare to others? Does the larger the number mean it takes longer to spool but can create more pressure? Because in that case wouldn't you want the smallest possible that can generate enough PSI that you want so that you can get fast spooling and sufficient PSI? I was thinking of getting one off of a GN or Regal because that's the only car I could think of that would be somewhat common in a junkyard.

Thanks Guys

Snowman,
If I remember correct, you have a 250 in your car(72 Chevelle). The SPA manifold on a 292 will clear the steering for sure, I have done it with a Tangential Exh housing( they sit lower on the manifold). Not sure if a turbo will clear your steering with a shorter in height 250. A "On Center" housing will give more clearance as it sit's higher on the manfold.

>.68, .81,.96 ect refer to the exh housing A/R. The bigger the #, the looser the exhaust is around the exh wheel, less back pressure and less boost. With the correctly sized exh housing/ wheel and compressor side , good boost should be attained at a reasonably low rpm and minimized back pressure on the exhaust so as to not choke up the exhaust.

A turbo from a Buick GN or possibly even better sized is the turbo setup as Beater is using on his changing 4 piles into 1 thread. It is a turbo setup from a 301 pontiac used in Trans Ams 1980 and 81? That one will readily fit under your hood and is cheaper to buy. You can use your old exhaust manifold to run it and a stock intake. It is made to bolt a 4bbl carb to it.

I have recently picked one up at a swapmeet and will do a writeup on configuring it for a install and possibly run it for demonstration purposes. Many guy's have used thes on the inline 6's thru the years. Tom

I'll just stay quiet & have our resident turbo expert here recommend all the stuff you need.

Good luck.



Peace out.

MBHD

Good idea.

I was being sarcastic about my last post,he has a lot to learn & has given wrong advise so far as turbo recomendations are concerned.
He asks advise from me,then rejects the ideas ,then turns around & acts like he thought of what I suggest him to do in the first place.

MBHD

Well, since you seem to think you are the only one here that knows anything and everything about turbos, maybe you should write a book to tell everyone what their doing wrong so we will all know how to do it then.

.

Why do you think you are the one who gets the "pat on the back". If you have done it, there was probably 10 million others that did it before you did, so why do you think you are special and should get credit for something someone else did before you. There is nothing if life you have ever done that wasn't done by someone else first.

.

No, you just think that there are "absolutes" in everything. There are many different ways to do same thing. Just because Tom's solution or combo doesn't align with what you think it should, doesn't mean his is wrong or yours is either. Mighty6's newest combo is a perfect example of this. He is looking to change to a different turbo, but his current one still makes good power and worked fine, but it still doesn't mean that it was wrong for his combo. Just like your cast piston vs. forged piston with a turbo scenario. If someone wants to use a cast piston with high boost instead of a forged piston, and I recommend they use a forged one and you recommend a cast one, it doesn't mean that they will be wrong for using a cast one. Either one will work, again theres no "absolutes".

Again you are wrong, I do not think that way.
All Tlowes advise is from an engine dyno,you cannot only get info from an engine dyno,how many times do I need to say that?

Both you & Tom said basically do not put a supercharger on that guys used cast piston engine,then I say, why not ,then later both of you guys seem to change your minds right on the bulletin board ,that's a called a flip flopper.

The guy did not want to run high boost,he said 5.5 psi,read it again.

Mighty6's combo,you do not know what he is looking for obvioulsy,otherwise you would agree w/his change on the A/R of the turbine housing.
He is not changing his turbo as you stated.
I suggested a long time ago to Steven to use a turbo instead of nitrous & all the problems he had with it.

I told him he would make more power w/a turbo,& be able to drive it on the street if he so desires to.
No I did not pick all his components,or build his engine, but he did ask for advise from me.
He & his brother knows what they are doing & are excellent fabricators I might add. Much respect!!

I did however have a lot of input on parts to use & design in his intake manifold & plenum box.
For the record,I believe His Opala is the fastest car that is on the forum here. 8.6 seconds @ 165 MPH.

I do know what Douglas wants to do w/his Opala/s,set a new record,he finally gave in,to what I've been telling & pleding w/him,,, his turbo specs are off & mostly,the killer in peformance was the camshaft,he now has a little bit better camshaft,but is still using the incorrect turbo.

Not tooting my own horn here but you seem to think I do not know what I am talking about,& that's fine,,,keep it to yourself,thanks

MBHD

Here is an example of me doing something no one has done for a Fazer 700
Carbonfiber gas tank cover.




MBHD

I did recommend forged pistons for the turbo application, and still do, I just am not saying that you are wrong to recommend he use cast pistons. Like panic said in a previous post, you can have 20 opinions on the same topic, and then ask someone else and get a completely different opinion, but that doesn't mean the previous 20 were wrong either.

Cool cover, I make carbon fiber prosthetic feet. Its unreal how strong that stuff is.

I am w/you on recommending forged pistons for forced induction,but if someones wants to try a low boost supercharger or turbochager on a stock engine & does not want to spend little to no money & or has no money,to do so,let them try it out I say,that's how you learn.
More than likely a hard way to learn if not extremly careful.

If the guy wanted to run high boost 87 octane & just slap a blower on,I would not tell him ,try it out & that's it.

Years ago I built my friends 1981 VW Schirocco (SP).
He was on a low budget.
I just reringed & new bearings the engine,ported the cylinder head & used all new gaskets etc.

The pistons & engine were just plain lower compression 1st year 8.5:1 VW GTI 1.8L engine.
The turbo set-up he had was a very primative,it had an imco (SP) valve to control the boost pressure,even that engine suprised me on how much boost it could take ,which was 20 psi.
I added an intercooler from a junkyard Renault turbo fuego.

It was a very quick little car that weighed about 1800 lbs

My friend was ,lets say very frugal when it came to $$$,the hoses wanted to blow off all the time when it went into high boost,all it needed to prevent that was to bead roll the ends on the intercooler tubes.
But that was my first hand experience w/turbocharging & was around the year 1988,since then & actually before then, I always have been interested in learning more & more about turbocharging & supercharging,& Nitrous.

MBHD

What's a normal PSI for boost? Like on a stock 250 with a turbo, wastegate, and methanol injection? I saw a guy run a 250 with 5psi of boost and I think he got like 360hp and about 300 ft/lbs and then I saw a nova run with 16psi of boost and he got 390hp with 401 ft/lbs. If I just had a stock setup with just normal performance upgrades: cam, lifters, springs, intake, exhaust, carb, and turbo, what'd be a good boost for fair longevity and good performance?

Snowman,
The stock lower end will take 4-6 PSI and have a good life. There are many variables to consider.

Rpm range Keep it below 5 K and that will help.

Fuel control- run it lean and engine damage is sure to happen

Detonation/ timing control- 5 PSI will not need alot of timing pulled. Step up the boost and controlling the timing becomes extremely critical.

Performance wise 300-400 hp yes, remember , people get stuck on HP #'s, turbo's really are torq producers. Acceleration in 2nd gear will feel like what 1 st gear used to feel like. Tom

oh and tom. I have a 69 Buick Special Deluxe, not a 72 something I think you said. I made a video of it if you want to see - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6bW41LH47I . You have a nice el Camino by the way.

Nice car! Great for a starter car. Same chassis as a 68-72 chevelle or any GM A body from the same years. Tom

For what your are doing 5-7 psi tops boost pressure.
Your set-up will not make that much HP, but it will make mucho torque,Torque is what you feel move your car ,sort to speak.

You can make 200-260 HP on an engine dyno pretty easy.

Don't need to change the cam,but if you decide to go bigger,just go up to about 200-204 degrees duration @ .050 on a 114-116 lobe center.
Comp cams will make what ever grind you desire.

As far as turbos go,I think you are on a budget & might go w/a used turbo?
If that's the case.

A stock Syclone or Typhoon turbo would be a good size & has a water cooled center section. Or a Buick Grand National 1986-1987 stock turbo.
The Sy/Ty turbos are made by Mitsubishi & the parts are more pricey than the Buick Regal turbos.

Also as a side note there A/R on the turbine housings are nowhere near a .96 which is what was used on a 250 engine dyno.

Don't fall for the "Hype that is a perfect size for a stock 250 that you have basically.
If you do fall for it,you will only be very dissapointed in the streetabilty & poor turbo spool up,,,even w/a manual trans.

Bosanova used a stock modified intake & a stock modified exhaust manifold, pretty clever.
Here is the link https://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=51198&fpart=6
You can also use the stock manifold & run the exhaust pipe up to the turbo wherever you want to place it.

Probably the easyiest,buy a complete draw through turbo set-up from a Turbo trams Am w/a 301 CI V-8
Or the older Buick regals 1978-1980 something.
Post # 188
has a couple pics of the turbo.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/before-...ed-equal-6.html
More from the same topic

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/before-...ed-equal-2.html


MBHD

Something I just considered is if I add the turbo, I'm going to have to pay for premium gas aren't I? But can't I just add a gallon of denatured alcohol which is like 130-140 octane to my tank to raise it to where it needs to be? Because a gallon of denatured alcohol is only like $12. So just fill it near to the top with normal unleaded and then put in that gallon and I should be good to go right? Doesn't alcohol also decrease engine temp? Thanks

Never mind

But if I boost the octane enough using denatured alcohol then shouldn't it prevent it from knocking? My dad used to use denatured alcohol all the time when he raced his friends in his 69 GS 400. He said he would go the pharmacy and buy a pint of denatured alcohol and add it to a quarter tank to drag race. He said it made all the difference.

Gas tank = 16 gallons (just for round numbers)
1 pint added to 4 gallons = 3%
Effect on octane: whatever your imagination tells you

Drugstore: isopropanol (rubbing alcohol)
Hardware store: ethanol + poisonous emetic to avoid the federal liquor tax (denatured alcohol)
Strong anti-knock agent: methanol (wood alcohol)

A better octane boost would be Xylene or toluene 117-116 octane.

Paint stores,Home Depot sells it.


MBHD