At it again.
Have had a 65 Chevelle 4 door wagon for quite some time. It has sat in the garage for atleast 7 years. Has a 194/ PG. Engine runs OK. Body is decent with very old paint. Interior is very lacking.

Decided to take it to the convention with the boy. So the thrashing starts. Pulled the interior to recoat the floor. Used a POR-15 type product. Added sound deadener, insulation and carpet.

Installed the dyno 250 motor with a richmond 5 speed. Had to add a floor hump, clutch pedals and linkage. New shocks, got the brakes working.
Changed the motor on Sunday. Hope to have running this weekend to test drive. All new exhaust.

Hope to pull out on Sat morning and get the trip on.

Let's also put some guess's out on what it may get for fuel mileage.
250 zero decked, 9.5 comp flat tops .040 over. Clifford 270 cam .525 lift and 214 degrees at .050. lumped head 1.94/ 1.6 valves, roller rockers. progressive 2 bbl 2305 350 cfm on a Offy intake. Hooker headers , 2 1/2 collectors, necked to 2 1/4 pipes into a Y pipe. Single 2 1/2 exit to a Magnaflow 3 chamber muffler and 2 1/2 tailpipe.
Trans is a non overdrive 5 speed. Rear gears will be 2.56 and have 27" rear tires.
Hope to get electric cooling fans hooked up too.
Closest guess to mileage gets a beer at the convention!

18.8 is my guess as it is about the same as mine except i have a 3.36 gear. I can squeak out about 16.9 mpg at 65/70 mph. Sounds like a nice project. Have fun at the Conv.

17.7, See you when you get here! I'll still be painting.

Save some paint for mine. It needs it!
Got exhaust done tonight. Rear springs and shocks. Rear seat reinstalled.

Hmmmmm, 18 MPG.

Tlowe,,,, Just curious about the choice of using the Offy intake.

I thought you were anti Offy, Clifford was the best intake for all purposes?

MBHD

Hoping to see more than 20 mpg. My turbo 292 Elco will get 18.

Hank, The Offy Intake is being used for this reason. It is the only intake I have that is water heated. I have a few Cliffords but have no method to heat them.

Last night got the clutch pedals hung and connected. Put in a new turn signal assy And repaired a door that was not opening from the outside very well. Tonight, wiring.

hook up a vaccuum gauge, establish where the power stage tip-in is and try to keep out of it-gonna be tough with those gears up the hills for sure, maybe along the flats too-but thats about all you can do as well as keeping a steady foot as to not wiggle in too much accellerator pump. The little primary (if it is a little primary)should make it easy to monitor. Dont go crazy on leaning the main jets for max milage-dont wanna burn the exhaust valves on the long trip

little slip-sticking shows 31.38 mph per 1000 rpm so 70 would be 2231 rpm- should make Hank happy and perhaps new motor will enjoy it too.

OK,
so are you saying the Offy would possibly get better gas mileage only because you can use water to heat it?

Or is there another reason?

I would think the Edelbrock SP2P would get better mileage over the Offy. That is what those were designed to do.
And if you are shooting for best mileage I would think that would be the ticket.

You got one of those?


MBHD

I am going with the Preacher!!! The gear is a little tall to be going West...some pretty tall hills on your way. I would want 3.23 or maybe 3.08 and about 2500 rpms at 70 mph. My cam is 519 lift and 262 degs. about the same as yours and my sweet spot is 2850 rpm with 20 inchs of vacuum.. I still feel you will be lucky to get 18 mpg. I don't think there is a ounce of difference on what intake/carb you have on it as long as you are driving for gas milage only and not making a few top end pulls !! LOL ...just saying.

Car presently has a 3.36 rear gear. Will get it running this weekend and drive it a bit with those gears. Get a feel for where the motor likes the load. Have a motor minder to hookup this weekend too. That and a tach. Not hooking up the speedo yet. Use a GPS for speed.

Have no SP2P intake. Never seen one in person. Had thought about using my Brazilian divided intake. It needs a little machine work, not enough time.

The water heat will promote fuel atomization. That and the annular discharge boosters of this Holley should do very well.

you are looking to utilize only the exact amount of hp to propel vehical along at 70 (or whatever your desired cruise speed) mph. Whatever that btu energy requirement is, is what the carb needs to provide as efficiently as possible. Carbs are very efficient on their main metering systems, and quite possibly most have nearly the same efficency. Carter carbs pioneered the vaccuum advance in the 20's and it has proven to be an improvement of 20% in economy. I would set total advance to be just shy of bucking at constant speed, probably needing the vaccuum advance to have only limited travel (bent nail in slot behind canister, 1/8 inch dia.) to allow for a little carb loading without pinging, oh yeah use ethyl (premium grade for you youngsters).

Ak Miller, its said of, used to air up his tires to 50# (pre radial days), run vaseline as wheel bearing grease, use light weight rear end lubricant, and back off any drag from brake shoes etc. to an effort to lower all mechanical drag. Who says you cant coast down hills? You may even approach 40 mpg and have the oil companies buy your car from you in an effort to crush all such techonology (you know how they are, i.e. fish carbs etc type wives tales)

Good luck

Timing is a huge event for fuel mileage. Plan is to have it in where it is needed.

Wiring today.
Cruise control too!

Gee Tom,
You were not kidding when you said you were very busy.
That is quite the undertaking on short notice.

Have fun!

Paul

The best mileage I ever got w/my 250 was about 21 MPG.

That was w/a 5 speed manual & a 400 CFM Carter AFB. Offy non heated intake.

Is your Brazilian devided intake heated?

How about your other long runner intakes, have you tried those out @ all? The PAS manifold, must be horrible for low end power.

MBHD

The Brazilian intake is not heated. My PES RAM intake will not fit under the hood.

Got it running tonight! She is one buzzin half dozen! Louder than I expected with a full size 3 chamber single muffler. Tomorrow, put the carpet back in and the front seat. I need to drive it! That progressive carb sounds crisp. Had a sticky needle and seat. Not bad for a unknown carb.

Hank, guy's like the PES because it has more tq than a Clifford.

More torque,,, @ what RPM is that at, higher torque @ a higher RPM range than the Clifford?


MBHD

Hank are you going to be able to make it to the convention? It's not that far from you. It will be fun to examine these cars at the show on Saturday and actually talk to the owners face to face and hear of their adventures on the way to Carson City. I am looking forward to the chance to meet as many of the folks on this board as possible.

Tom, Will you be able to post on the way?

Look forward to meeting everyone at the convention. I'll be the guy in the Ford.

Yep. If I use this blackberry. First time to try it.

I would like to go, but I cannot make it.

Somebody take pics & post them up here.

MBHD

That's too bad but I know you have your hands full. I'm sure there will be lots of pictures. I'll take some of what I'm able to attend. We are working hard to get everything done. I still have 4 more trophies to finish and get my pickup painted and back together. There is no trophy for wet paint. Where does the time go? It would be fun to get a picture of all the bulletin board users that make it to CC.

Drove it down the road tonight. Running good. Pulls good too. Got a lot to do. The list is getting shorter.

Tom
Ran out of time. Will have to take the Vibe. See you in Denver.
Luke

tlowe, I'll give it a shot and say maybe 20 mpg in certain stretches.Have a safe trip and look forward to meeting you in Carson City.

Tom, I sounds like you are about to set out on a great adventure. When my oldest son and I set out for Texas in his '54 Stude the first time He had driven it less than 200 miles on a total frame off build. We drove some and wrenched some all the way. I spent an extra week in Lubbock working on the car while he started school. We made those back and forth trips every year till he graduated. I wouldn't trade those trips for anything. Good luck and keep us posted. Painting the '53 tomorrow. I hope it gets done.

Drove it today. About 125 miles. some 60 mph mosy @ 65-70 rpms upto about 3300 @ 70. Not pleasant. Refilled and added 5.6 gallons.
It still has the 3.36 gears and 27" tires with no overdrive. Plenty of spunk too!
Tonight, regear to 2.56 gears, should get the RPMs down to a managable # and the mileage up.

This thing is loud. Need a resonator to jam into the tail pipe.

You should have seen all the leaves blowing out of the floor vents when it first got upto speed.

hope to depart on Sunday. Will miss the supper at Will's. Darn, my work had me toooo busy to get this thing done.
Today, the boy and I put in the carpet, front seat, and newly installed 3 point seat belts.
The timing is a bit too much at highway speed, will dial that back down. It bucks abit.

Beater- great trophys from a sorce besides a trophy shop. I offered to do that for the midwest convention and got laughed at!!! 1 ol redneck!!!!!

Darrell,
I would take anything you make.



Weighed the car. 3900 with me and the boy and a full tank.

Lets see some pics of it!

Tlowe,
maybe some 2.72's for the rear would be better than 2.56's?
W/256's you would be using 5th as an OD, even though it isn't.

Now you can see first hand how horrible (IMO) reving 3300 RPM is just to go 70 MPH.

Some guys still insist, 355's are great w/24" tires & say, let it rev, it does not hurt it.

X2 on the pics, posts are worthless w/out pics!

What does the exhaust system consist of?

Are you going to race it in Reno?

MBHD

Tom best of luck on this trip- wish I could make it. Have a great time!!!!

Well I seen a 250 would rather run free and turn a little more rather than getting too far down in the RPM range. they don't like to have to work all the time. One I messed with was an intergal head stock motor and got 22-23 mpg with 4;11 s and went to 17-18 with3;42 s. That one belomg to my friend thats always at Cedar Rapids with me. I think you've met him Tom.

Well I seen a 250 would rather run free and turn a little more rather than getting too far down in the RPM range. they don't like to have to work all the time. One I messed with was an intergal head stock motor and got 22-23 mpg with 4;11 s and went to 17-18 with3;42 s. That one belomg to my friend thats always at Cedar Rapids with me. I think you've met him Tom.

My Camaro had 3.08 when I first got it.

I drove it that way for years. Daily driver.

Got a great deal on a 12 bolt 4.10 rear end, installed it, gas mileage dropped dramatically, especially on the freeway.
Still my daily driver.
It was OK in the city, but I hated it on the freeway w/out a doubt!
A 200R4 would have helped a lot w/those 4.10's IMO.


MBHD

Gears are in. Pics on Sunday. Have no 2.73. Calculated 2.56 to be the correct rpm @ 70-75 mph.

Something dont jive here at post #69947 'cause 3.36 gears and 27" tires slip-stick out to 23.91 mph per 1000 rpm therefore 3300 rpm should equal 79 mph (3000 rpm would be 72 mph) Probably got the wrong plastic speedo gear in the richmond or else the gps is talking to Sputnik by mistake.

Of course, a point could be made that this the way the factory, in all their infinite wisdom, felt the wagon should be geared(with the 194).

The Bonneville gears will put you at 70 with only 2230 RPM (31.38mph/1000 rpm), but you do have nearly a half dozen gears to play with if the 2230 rpm level lulls you into a meeting with the sandman.

A good pioneer stereo (and Johnny B. Goode) could handle the 3.36's road racket and make the trip faster.

Duh!

Here are the pics. Be gentle. This car has not been on the road since the early 2000's.
Tires must be shorter. Thought they were 27. Tach is reading about 25-2600 at 75.











The gears work great. Also added the front chin spoiler. Both changes made the car quieter. Pulls off the line fine. It does help to have a 3.28 first gear.

Awww heck Hank, but since you brought it up....

YUP! Still do! ('cept Dad's tires were 28" inches remember?) By the way,who's using 24" tires that you are referring to ?)


...and some people wax poetic over 3.08's ability to get great gas mileage while at the same time turning the car into a slug.

3.08's are swell if mileage is your ONLY/MAIN concern, but if you want a little get up-n-go to go with your mileage, then 3.55's are hard to beat!

Hank do you ever use 1st or 2nd gear? If so why? Think of the wonderful gas saving final gear ratio you'd get if you would only use high gear/overdrive!!

*Since some things don't come across very well in written form, i'll let everyone off the hook: the previous statement is dripping in sarcasm!*

fasteddie

Tlowe,

hard to tell what size the tires are. 245-60-15's?

Exhaust looks good. What size is the single pipe to the muffler?

Should be a better trip w/out turning high RPM's on the highway.

MBHD

Went 243 miles so far. Really likes to go 75mph. Average speed so far is 68.2.
Rear tires are 255/60-15..
We are off again..

These are all "shop made", my shop. Too late to laugh, not too smart either. Beater

Wow Tom, You're really doing it! I like wagons, they're more comfortable to sleep in. I hope you don't have to. How old is your son?

We got 500 miles under our belt.
The single pipe is 2 1/2.
Had tough head wind most of yesterday. 20-30 mph. Ran into bad dust/ wind/ rain / hail in one place. My wiper blades need replaced. The cruise control won't work.
Beater. You have mail.

Have 1150 miles done. All going well. Our butts hurt. Very bad head wind 20-30 mph with gusts unto 55. Had a whirl wind really swing the car . Mileage so far is 17.5. I expect better with flatland and less wind. In salt lake now.

You'll be here tomorrow. I'm just trying to get the '53 back home. It won't be at the convention.

Tom,

Take a min and exit at Bonneville your going to drive right by it. Take a drive out to end of the road. Won't be much to see except the sign. The cafe at the Bville gas station has a LOT of history in it... worth while to stop and have a look.

Also not a lot of gas stations between Elko and Reno...

Salt lake ut to Elco nv. 230 miles. 11.7 gallons. No real wind. But some big hills/ mountains.

We made it. Report later.

We are having a great time. Found the ting not working up to snuff. Fixed that and it runs even better.
Went to see the old harrah collection. Wow to those historical cars.

I want the gray 1911 Franklin roadster in the first room, or the Thomas Flyer, or.......

When computing gas milage figures, one has good accuracy in knowing the amount of distance traveled (if the speedo gear is correct -can be field checked by matching several milage markers along interstates). The other accurate item is how much gas we put into the tank at each fill-up (the gov'mt and interstate regulators keep the gas pumps up to snuff). But taking the milage and dividing it by the volume of gas purchased is not true gas milage. It is just that a ratio of miles traveled /gas purchased(or added to tank). THIS IS NOT FUEL MILAGE BECAUSE WE ARE ASSUMING THAT THIS FILL-UP QUANITY IS WHAT WE CONSUMED! 99% of the time it is not, it is just what we put in.

These filling errors can be minimized by continuing the test over as many fill-ups as possible. It is these errors that enables the fellow next door with the '62 462 inch Lincoln to get 20 + mpg. He knows he went 120 miles and he knows he PUT IN 6 gallons. But the car was sitting tilted with the filler neck down low, impossible to fill properly-probably could not put too much in tank- if level perhaps another two gallon would fit in thus giving him 15MPG-hmmm not much to brag about-but boy 20 SURE IS.

Tom's old '65 has a simple tank compared to a '72 vehicle which has an evaporative emmissions tank, they have odd bumps to their shape to satisfy their need for areas of vapor for cannisters to collect from etc. You can click off gas pumps for days and not fill them up. His will make it a bit easier to fill-up uniformly/accurately.

In order to make this test an accurate venture, a good round trip total should be considered without breaking it into several low milage jaunts.

Sorry to be seemingly pouring rain on the parade, as I am as interested as anyone in seeing if a 250 can deal with 2.56 gears. Any one can short fill a tank and get bragging rights quite easily for only one short distance fill-up-but boy check the milage on that next tank... 13 ??... what happen to the 22?

What a fun week! I think Jake made more friends than I did. We are packing up and pointing east. Don,t know which song is more appropriate. East bound and down or Willy,s song (which I can,t remember right now). The car is getting put in high gear and keeping the throttle down. It is 24 hrs drive time at 75. Report later.
This was by far the largest turnout for a convention.

Honk and wave as you pass by mile marker 160 on I-80 Utah. I live about a quarter mile off your right shoulder.

dunno, do you mean "(Turn out the lights)The Part's Over" also done well by the late (dandy) don meridith or Willie's
"On the road again"
Both pretty well fit the occaision.

Left carson city about 8 arrived winnemucca off to elco

Going through salt lake city now

In Rock springs wyoming. Averaginging 75-80 and getting what looks like 19.9 mph.

Parked for the night. Jake and I are sleeping in the car. In the middle of nowhere wyoming. How peaceful. Got almost 800 miles knocked down from 1650.

Well at least you have Jake to protect you. I think we all made a few friends.

"When You Leave Amarillo, Turn Out the Light" Bob Wills and The Texas Playboys I guess that would be I-40.

Plenty of room in the wagon for sleeping. Not enough padding. In Laramie wy now getting breakfast.

In 1975 My wife and I spent the night in Laramie in the bed of our pickup. I thought we would freeze. It was July!

Not to cold.. Leaving North Platte Neb now.

Bob Wills-wow. I bet you had a dinosaur for a pet when you were little. I eh didnt, but I still like his stuff and the Texas state song (should be) San Antonio Rose yeeah!

That's the unofficial state song. They used to play it for a half hour or forty-five minutes at the start of dances so the crowd would be too tired to brawl.

Are you home yet Tom?

Got to omaha neb. Had a noise.. Found it and fixed it. More on that later. Still seeing 20 mpg. Power is up. Lower altitude. In does moines now. Home in 1.5 hour.

as a sidelight to the gas milage essay above, my son asked if the computer on his '06 GTO would be a good thing for calc'g true gas milage.

his GTO's computer can provide real at the moment milage, as well as milage for a tankful (its 5.7 chevy motor with 3.23axle .69 od can provide 23-24 mpg on the flat long I-30 ft. worth to memphis runs (light car with small frontal area-with a loafing motor).

An interesting challange should be : fillup, set computer, drive a good distance and compare computer's milage vs. gas milage done by manual fillup/pencil style (odometer divided by gas pump) since the computer does know how much fuel was consumed it would be the standard by which the "fillup error" could be judged. I'm gonna get him to try that- it should reinforce earlier statements.

I think the computer is pretty accurate.

I tested my A4 & it is real close.

IIRC, a 06 GTO will have a 6.0 engine, not a 5.7?
I believe a 04 GTO is the only year for a 5.7, & it is not a light car IMO.

I guess they are lighter than the new Camaros, but those are close to 4000 LBS.

MBHD

First day back to work. It is like they have been waiting for me.
Story on the noise. Pull off interstate to get gas, pull ear plugs and hear a singing sound, like exhaust dragging. Great ground off a pipe. Pull into station, fill up start checking things out. Nothing loose. Start it up and sound is back. Jake says the alternator is wiggling. Fan of alternator is hitting upper bracket. Bottom bolt had loosened and lost the nut, washer and pipe like spacer. Bolt still there. Ended up using a 9/16 - 5/8 closed end combo as a spacer and a spare nut. Brushed off and continued ripping home.
All in all the car performed well considering the short time I took to get it ready.
2.56 gears turned 2800 rpm @ 80 mph. Needed a overdrive. In iowa it will pull any hill and accelerate in high gear.

a misspoke, it is a 6.0L, and as he likes to say, its a V8 ALL the time and the world's cheapest 400 hp car. I've driven it on the paved country road around here, and even with the traction control on its a real dancer all thru second (4le65).

Being an Aussie car in America, the parts are now very hard to get, body parts especially--thank you mr Obama for pushing Pontiac into a premature grave.

Lots and lots of room under the hood- no joke, almost like a '55 chevy-you can see the ground all around the motor. His previous Firebirds had half the motor under the windshield--a dropped wrench would never hit the ground!

Tom , so I can't take the suspense. Who won the free beer in Carson City?
I never even guessed your gas mileage and you bought me a beer! Thanks Tom, had a great time. I wonder how Russ made it home?

Steve O

Well when he was here he said something about 17.9 and my guess was 17.7 but I didn't get a beer. I even loaned him my Holley carb book and I guess it's in Iowa. Man you just can't trust these Inliners.

Tom did you stop and let Jake shoot or just make him shoot out the window? Glad you are home safe. I hope the other drivers check in.

I took a stab at it and said 20 mpg, earlier today Tom posted he was getting about 20 mpg on the flatlands

Yeah, but you can't catch him on the flatlands and when you do run him down he's tweaked the milage so he doesn't owe you a beer any more.

LOL beater,
what's the 2 year interest on a owed beer? Incase someone has to wait until the next convention.

We'll have to wait. You can't sneak up on a Hawk-eye out on the prairie. We'll have the advantage again in Colorado.

I get the beer.....!!!! 19.9 + 17.7 = 37.6 / by 2 = 18.8..that is what i said it would be.

I said 18 MPG.

MBHD

Just thinking that 2800 RPM @ 80 MPH seems too high of RPM w/2.56 gears, no?

Doug Nash is a 5 speed?, were you in 5th gear or 4th :D.

MBHD

Jerry, That's some pretty fancy math, do you work for the government.

I thought it was a richmond

IIRC, Richmond & Doug Nash are the same basic trans?

MBHD

beats me-I'm from the Cad-LaSalle, Packard era, T-10/Muncie used to be cutting edge stuff in high school.

Beater..., those were the only 2 hard numbers reported so.....I just "averaged" (Amount to or achieve as an average rate or amount over a period of time) WE ARE TALKING FREE BEER HERE !!! LOL...Jerry

If there are two or more measurements there is an average. Average has nothing to do with normal.
As I have said before my favorite beer is free beer, my second favorite is cold beer. I am sure a Texan taught me that.

For the next convention, I will have to bring a keg. It might be warm!

Got some time. Here are a few of my pics. Did not take as many as I should.
Wrench used as spacer

Heading East

Those pesky bugs! Worse when in Iowa and driving at night.

A great morning near exit 188 in Wyoming

BS session
This was after I put new headlights in the car. Halogens for better driving on way home. Short story is only low beams would work. I had accidentally rammed a screw into the wiring when instally my junk and grounded the high beams. The result was a bunch of help. Tim Tenold finally rung my bell with his wisdom and I found it.

Jakes new best friend

All Minden Pics






The nightly scene at the hotel

Good pics, never knew what a 65 station wagon weighs, any idea?

3600 - 3800 LBS?


MBHD

Yeah, I posted it before we left. Even in this blog.
3900 with the two of us and a full tank of gas. Not gear or tools. Probably add 150 for that stuff. I am fortunate to have a local certified scale that is left on and I can drive over it anytime. It even has a outside display. The perks of living in the country.

Great pictures Tom. Say hello to Jake. That wrench spacer reminds me of one of the trophies.

I saw that, I was asking how much the car weighs w/out anyone in it or tools or gear etc.


I do not know what you weigh, your son, or what extra stuff in the car weighs.
MBHD

pay for it in eggs do you?

It's pretty easy to find online., http://www.chevellestuff.net/1965/misc/dimensions.htm

Well since this was about gas mileage and gearing and the like, here was a real world example where conditions were not ideal for half of the trip( as the real world is often FAR from ideal)...I wonder what the gas mileage would have been if shorter( larger numerically) gearing had been used... this would have allowed Tom to NOT have to mash the gas pedal as much as he did in order to maintain his speed when pitted against 20-30 mph headwinds and gusts up to 55mph, whirlwinds, and driving uphill.

This could mean better mpg for at least the first half of the trip.(and potentially worse mpg on the second leg of the trip) Hmmmm I guess it comes down to averaging HOW MUCH better and HOW MUCH worse. Funny things averages are huh?

It is pretty simple to figure out.

Take a new car out w/a mileage indicator in it.

Drive a steady state of MPH in top gear, level ground, note the MPG, then downshift it one gear down & manitain the same MPH,, watch the RPM go up & watch the MPG go down, simple enough.High RPMs = worse gas mileage.

Keep those RPMs down & enjoy the quite & better mileage ride.

MBHD

Rejetted the carb tonight. I even recarbed it first. The original was a 350 CFM. The car had a lean bumble at really light loads.
Put a 500 CFM progressive on it. Much less bumble and idled better, the old 350 carb was used as is and never fiddled with except to adjust idle mixture screws.
The 500 when opened up had #55 jet in primary and 73 in secondary. Rejetted the PRI to a #60. Bumble is nearly gone. Will rejet with 64 and try again.
When running the 350, it must have been on the power valve for more fuel. I noticed tonight the add on cruise would work at the same speeds, where it would not work before. The 350 must have had to have the throttle open farther to satisfy the fuel need and opened the power valve. Less vacuum to operate cruise.

Going to also change the PV in the 500, from a 8.5 to a 6.5. Looking at the metering block, it is only drilled to allow fuel from PV to the secondary. Not the primary.
The 500 idles better and has more low end tq. Maybe just a better , used carb.

Hank: if merely reducing your rpm always results in better gas mileage,then help me figure out my mileage in this example:

I come to a stop at an intersection. I have my foot on the brake and am not moving. I am idling at 650rpm (you can't get the rpm's much lower than that huh?) and I sit there not moving for exactly one hour(thus making the math easy for you). Calculate my mpg for that hour.(hint: it rhymes with "hero")

If all it takes to get better gas milage is using taller and taller gears to reduce the rpm, then why are we not seeing auto manufacturers utilizing 1.56 rear gears or better yet, 1.13 gears or for that matter seeing the likes of a 1:1 final drive ratio?? Hank you would love it. Think of how quite oops..I mean quiet that would be!

Tom: It has been my contention all along that by using very tall gearing you wind up having to step into the gas more than you would with shorter gears in order to maintain your desired speed and wind up getting into the power stage of the carb . Thus ruining the mpg. This sounds to me like what you might have been running up against.

Using somewhat shorter gears would mean you don't have to step into the gas so much, thereby staying out of the power stage of the carb. This could potentially get you better gas mileage AND give more get-up-n-go than 2.56 gears supply. As you and I most most others realize, the Earth is not flat. Real life has headwinds and uphill climbs and is far from ideal.
Glad you had fun at the Convention, I wish I coulda gone!
fasteddie

So the 350 cfm was the carb of the trip, and the 500 is the experimental one which you are attempting to make into a really good performer. All your mods and changes to it are against good milage but will make it a more drivable product AND tend to keep you out of the carb's power stage with those Bonneville gears (but tell me-was'nt the trip quit, quite, or maybe quiet as some have stated it would be).

I feel certain, now only an opinion mind you, (which should have as much worth as any one else's on this forum) that the power stage tipping in, is a major player in the real world milage game. Along with wind drag (which increases by the square as speed increases- ask the guy with the fifth wheel camper about that) they combine to provide a more formible opponent to good milage than merely rpm, Not to mention "pumping losses" (oops).

Do continue-maybe we can cast out some more demons.

O.K. I pick 20 mph, and a 2.56 axle with a '52 thru '64 six cyl. gearset tranny that has a 1.68 second ratio.

With 27" dia tires that means 637 rpm in high and 1071 rpm in second...by golly there are more rpm happening in second gear. Lessee that was.. Uh-huh?

It's not the RPMs as much as the comfort zone of the engine. Throttle position is key. If your gears (trans, tire size, rear end, or OD) make it necessary to be deep into the throttle to go down the road you won't get good MPG at any RPM. The good old vacuum gauge is a real help in finding the zone. The most amount of work with the least amount of throttle. The combinations to get that won't be the same every where or for every use, that's the real world aspect.

Got some time today to play with the wagon. I've been gone.
Changed the pri jet to a 64 from a 60. Low speed bumble is gone. Engine runs smooth.
Will change the PV next. When getting on it, into the secondary, the engine seems rich. Will install a 6.5 PV.

1st gear is a bit tall and 5th is like overdrive. The rear tire is a 3.55-60/15 and should be about 27 tall. I measured them. 25.75. Must be worn.

I am going to try to find a different 1st gear set in the 4.41 ratio. Presently is a 3.28.

Hank,
The boy and I are about 300 pnds.

With a lower 1st gear, this car would be perect for cruising.

Preacher,
With the 2.56 gears, it is quiet, engine wise. Wind whistle is another story. Door and window gaskets are on order. Hope to throw out the earplugs!

Tom, 64s and 6.5 pv is what i ended up with.. my alt. here is 870 ft.... 50 CC pump worked best for me. My mileage has stayed around 16 no matter what i do..my top speed is 109 to 111 mph but it sure gets there quicker now !!! J

Hey Tom,
Very interesting stuff...Thanks for posting all that you do around here.



hey Tom, if you get a chance, could you measure from the centerline of the wheel to the ground for us? I believe that taking this measurement and doubling it, gives us the most accurate/realistic diameter to calculate from. This "rolling diameter", or "effective diameter" if you will, takes into account tire deflection.
Thanks again,
fasteddie455

That is exactly the way I measured it. The tires are also aired to 30 PSI. The tread is somewhat worn , but nowhere near bald (like me).

Scrap,
If it had a speedo, I am sure it could bury it. Gave my Bro back his GPS. Did have the tach upto 3200 in high gear. 27-2800 is 80 mph.. I let off, it has way more to go.

Here is a update on the ole wagon.
Drove it a bunch this summer.
Shook a exhaust pipe loose at a header and the lower alternater bolt. That is it for problems.

Just redid all the door seals, fuzzies and glass channels. What a job! Redoing the tailgate stuff was another job. Hopefully , this will quiet it down a bunch on the highway. Might not have to wear earplugs.

Going to drive down to KC and meet a friend, swing over to Springfield for the BIG swapmeet. And to top it off. Head down to the HAMB Drags in Joplin MO. Maybe I will see some of you there. It is all this weekend.

Springfield swapmeet was a nice one. Who would expect that Jake would want a set of school lockers. Well they fit in the wagon.
Saw Gary Hart and his turbo EFI Jimmy. Wow.

Next went to Joplin for evening. All HAMB people and their car were here. What a time.
All along the car is getting 20mpg going 75-80 mph.

It pulls from a lugging start with 256 rear and is perky at 80. Guess all the dyno testing did pay off.

Going to the HAMB drags today.

The weather is nice in Cedar Rapids today it was 63 @ 9 am. on my way to D.C. does Gary sill have the Bonneville car?

Not sure if he has that. He did say this is the Bonneville motor.
So far I have seen 1 online. A slant 6 altered.

Now would be a great time (with your current combo) to see how a Clifford intake (in place of the OFFY) works (as a comparision) with your combo & 256 gears, real street testing.

Just to see how well the carb works, how well it accelerates.

I have a feeling you will not like the results.


MBHD

I think it was 2006 he (Gary Hart) ran a green '50 Buick straight 8 then around 2008 stepped up to a twin turbo'd BBC in a Studie.for a 240+ mph run and explosion., http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qmJSGS3u7I ,

Garys' Buick and Studebaker are in this link as well as the Black Opal car. http://www.diyautotune.com/racing/bonneville_speedweek2008.htm

Tom, How were the HAMB drags? Was Ron Golden there?

The Drags were a blast! So was the party on Fri night at the hotel parking lots. Full of all types of rods. The people were a hoot also.
Not sure on how many racers, but would guess at 100. While driver cars numbered around 200.
There were cars that would be pushing with a flathead 4 cyl to stay on the road, these would have a 700 hp BBC with blower! They were a handful to keep on the track! Plenty of wheels up action. One ChevyII with a V8 had the front 4-5 feet up 2 times in one run!
Did not see Ron.
Did see a altered with a slant 6 that ran 10's. 62 or 63 ChevyII with a 230 that was running low 14's. There were a few more inlines. Will get some of the pics downloaded.
Jake and I had a great time seeing it all.

Car did give me some trouble. Left Platte City from my friends, got about 25 miles north and heard a buzzing sound. Stopped and checked, the nut had stripped on the alternator and the pully was barely hanging on. Drove to a Orielly's and had them donate a nut from a core unit. Got it installed and all is well.

Have approxiamately 5500 miles this summer on this dyno 250. Very impressed on how well it pulls at low rpms and purrs at highway rpms of 26-2800 rpm for continuous duty. No oil consumption, rattles or pinging either.

Sounds like a fun trip except for your nut trouble. Glad you caught it in time. Tell my buddy Jake hello for me. What is he going to do with his lockers?

There were a lot of HAMB guys at Bonneville too.

Doubt that a Clifford would cause any problems. Not going to do it now. Not enough time and would have to change many things to do it.

Maybe you should just get your car running and do some of this testing yourself. They are a lot more fun to drive than just talk and dream about. People dig the ole ratty wagon. They might like yours too.

It is nice not having to worry about scratching the paint.

I have done this type of testing years ago on a real street driven car.
Your friend had done some testing & IIRC, the Offy came out on top in low rpm,0-60 mph etc on an actual car that was tested on the street, not a engine dyno.
There is a big difference between the two you know?

Dynos are a great tuning tool, but it does not show you how well a combo will work when it's actually in a car that moves.

I have a lot of projects to do & no time or $$$ to get them done.
So I just have to dream, I guess.
I am not sure how to take your comment about my car being a ole ratty car?


MBHD

Did not call your car a old ratty car. I said mine is. Although I have seen pics of yours (provided by you) the paint looks as shiny as my wagons does.

Just saying, you can put yours back together and do some testing with non turbo parts.

The tests Duece did were on a stock cam and headed motor, heck even stock type exhaust. The motor could not take advantage of any of the air the manifold could give it.

When you start putting larger than stock camshafts, the signal to the carb is less, it takes longer for the carb to clear out (with the Clifford intake) any miss/incorrect metering of the carb.

When you go really big on the camshaft, stock to near stock compression, run tall gears like 3.08's or so, the engine w/a Clifford will really dislike this type of combo & will prove so immensely down low in the RPM band, where as with an Offy, the engine can tolerate such a combo much better.

I have done many, many combos w/both intakes back to back tests, different carbs, carb spacers you name it, when the combo is really off, the Clifford intake is less forgiving.

A 292 engine can get away with a bigger intake, but all my tests were done on a 254 CI engine.

Can you imagine how a poor little 194 engine will do when the combo is way off (IE too much duration of a camshaft) & you run a Clifford?

The Offy recovers quicker, the air velosity is higher, it will produce more torque down low. IMO

Like I said, an engine dyno is great for tuning, but it doesn't tell you how it will work in a chassis.

It's like when you come to a conclusion for turbo recommendation based off of an engine dyno test, that is not the correct way to judge how a turbo is going to work when it's going to be used in a vehicle.


MBHD

Here is a thrown together vid of the wagon. I forgot to wax it up before hand.

I edited out a bunch of the gravel road driving. You can see why painting it would be futile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NU7n3kOWe8&feature=youtu.be

Sounds good Tom! Need something to damp those rock strikes.....

Drove the wagon to 3 far away functions this year.
Rappin to Minden in Nebraska
Meldown Drags, Byron Ill
Hamb Drags , Joplin Missouri

Just got back from Joplin. On one stretch, filled up in Platte City MO and drove to Springfield Mo for the swapmeet, then onto Joplin for the party that evening in the hotel parking lot. Filled up with gas and checked mileage. Keep in mind, I have no speedo and use the tach to maintain speed. Usually at 2800 RPM. Had two other people that can attest to only 3 cars passing me in all that driving(almost 300 miles). The car pulled 21.5 MPG!

The car has been remarkably reliable and starts on the first whirl. It is time to put front disc brakes on it. Maybe paint it the winter of 2014-15. Hate to do it now, it is too fun to drive.

Did get a lower first gear( 4.41), now to put it in.


Titen- I found this thread using Yahoo. project 1012 inliners

How did I miss this thread???
Musta been busy that summer.
Tom, that is awesome mileage.
My Gasolator predicted about 19mpg on a 75mph trip.
Some more info, speed hurts - Gonkulator predicts the following MPG depending on cruise speed (prediction includes gas & rest stops)
Speed.......Avg.MPG.trip
40......20.5
50......22.4
60......22.0
70......20.1
80......18.1
Some cars actually peak at 30 or 40mph (actually the Model A Ford gets its best MPG at about 25mph, we won the economy run one year with ours). But tall gears, good aero, and big cams favor higher speeds.

Surprised youre doing better than the Gasolator running a HOLLEY of all things.
To me, this is confirmation that Holleys are good and efficient carbs when your foot is in them. EG, a lot of Ford trucks ran Holleys in the 70s. If they were gas pigs, Ford wouldnt have done that. But your foot is usually in the truck, so the Holley is quite efficient.
The trick to me is that progressive conversion you did - so the 1bbl is open far enough to be efficient even as a Holley.

BTW have you had that ratty longroof to the strip yet?
Gonkulator says
2.44
10.07 at 70.3
15.62 at 88.7
Thats pulling its full 3900lb.

I did find the two intakes as near equals as noted in past threads. But that was on a 3.08 powerglide, both a 250 and 292 in front. That did surprise me - the Clifford did not lose down low.

But, I would give it to the Offy for warmups - I didnt use the manifold heat, but even without that, theres just a lot of "floor" and slow moving air in that big Clifford. Probably the Offy is a better MPG choice especially in cold weather.

The only aero I've done is:
Add a front air dam
Smaller front tires allow it to sit down low

Other efficiencies include:
Electric fans for engine cooling ( they never run at highway speeds)
Manual trans
2.56 gears ( no overdrive)10 bolt 8.2 rear
no power anything.

The carb is not a conversion. The 2305 is a real progressive 2 bbl made that way. Both barrel get the accelerator pump and the power valve only feeds the primary barrel. It also has annular discharge boosters.


No strip time with it. Am looking at buying a G-Tech performance meter. It could be very handy.