New 12 Port 6 cylinder and 8 Port 4 cylinder heads & what goes with them.

I don't know all the details but here is a picture of some of the new stuff coming your way soon from Scott Marshall. This is just a part.

Now you did it , he'll be so busy answering questions he won't have time to machine the parts.

He can just send out the raw castings with instructions.

I was thinking that could be an option for the DIY guys. And maybe a bare machined head and let the buyer get their own parts to complete the assembly.

wow

very, very, cool!!

Scott (CNC-Dude) will be offering his new acquisitions after the first of the year. Like I said I don't know all the details but here's what I think I know.
Scott has purchased some parts and the patterns to cast them from Joe Deppe. There is a 12 port L6 head and an 8 port L4 head. There are valve covers for each. There are patterns for L6 & L4 blocks and a couple of 4 cylinder blocks. There are two timing covers a one piece and a two piece set up for external drives. There are intakes for mechanical injection and 4bbl carb. This should make our lives more interesting. I'm sure Scott will answer questions and maybe he has some better pictures.

Adding to the info:

1) The 4-cylinder block is designed for midget racing with a provision for an in-and-out box, not a traditional Chevy bell housing. Furthermore, there is no provision for an internal oil pump so an external pump (dry or wet sump) is required. In addition, I believe there is no provision for a distributor and a crank trigger is required.

Scott has a couple (?) of raw cast 4-cylinder blocks in hand. I'm not clear whether he has patterns for a 6-cylinder block or not. I know the (longer term) plan is to provide both 4- and 6-cylinder blocks with water jackets and provisions for a standard bell housing and starter. Don't know how/if Scott will deal with the distributor issue. (By the way, Joe Hunt can make up one of there "magneto look" HEI distributors for most inline 4s and 6s. They're not cheap but they work well and sure look nice!).

2) The 4- and 6-cylinder heads will be offered as either solid (race only) or water jacketed. In another thread, Scott indicated that he might offer an option of providing a bare, but fully machined head to allow the buyer to finish out the head with their own choice of components as dictated by the intended use.

Obviously, the new heads are not cross-flow but similar to the Sissell/Kirby head with the exception that Scott's heads have rectangular intake ports while the Sissell/Kirby head have round intake ports.

3) The photos show both 4- and 6-cylinder port injectors and, as already noted, one of the two front covers provides mounting for a typical Hilborn or Enderle mechanical fuel pump. I believe there is also the provision to drive a water pump off one of the front covers (though perhaps not both the water and fuel pump - not clear on that).

In exchanging email with Scott, I suggested that he might consider modifying these patterns to include EFI injector bosses for customers that want to go that direction. Of course, these new heads will bolt up to the OEM 250/292 blocks.

4) One of Scott's tasks (I'm assuming early on) will be to revise the tooling to replace the Deppe and Duggan branding with his own Marshall brand.

5) Finally, though not a part of this group of products, Scott and I have been working on a new intake system for the good old siamese port head. The plan is to develop an intake similar to the early Corvette "Blue Flame" setup that will use three side-draft Carter YH carbs. Should be "old school cool". We'll keep you posted on the progress of this project.

The above is somewhat preliminary and, if I've got anything wrong, I'm sure Scott or others will make the necessary corrections.

Russ

Thanks Russ, That's more than I knew. I'm really interested in the 4 cylinder stuff especially the head. Sounds like EDIS ignition would be an easy way to go. The 4 bbl carb manifold would make TBI a simple installation too. All of a sudden there is a lot of speed equipment to choose from and this time around it our friends who are making it. How cool is that?

Beater:

The 4-cylinder head should bolt right up to the Chevy-II iron block. I'm guessing Scott would need to build a new set of patterns for the 4-cylinder 4bbl intake similar to the 6-cylinder manifold shown in the photos.

Just thinking out loud: Perhaps the 6-cylinder 4bbl manifold patterns could be revised to support a 3x2 setup as an option. Hmmmm ...

I also talked with Scott some time ago about the idea of side covers with mounting pads and nice finned covers to mount (and hide) coils for "coil near plug" ignition to replace the typical distributor.

Russ

I have a nice pair of 40 DCOEs that would be great on a 153-181. Building an aluminum manifold for them would be easy.

For coil near plug (or EDIS)ignition, a 36 tooth timing wheel needs to be mounted on the front of the crank.

I can supply the control box to make it work - with a base timing curve in it so as long as the sensor and wheel are mechanically degreed in it will start and run without any messing around.

Beater, there are so many possibilites with induction choices for the 4 cylinder. A Weber manifold will be easy to make for that head. That EDIS sounds like a good option as well. Maybe the mechanical injection manifold can be modded for use as an EFI. A 4 BBL intake is going to be easy to make also if there is any demand for it.

The whole new "Marshall Collection" is filled with possibilities. The 8 port head interest me for other reasons besides my 153 blocks. Remember the Stude V8 head on the Model A I was considering? This in a pre or partially machined form might be better for the "A" or my '28 Chevy L4.

I will quite saving cans for my stuff and send them to Scott. He is definately going to need them.

It looks like between me and Tom, Coke and Pepsi will be calling us to see if they can buy some aluminum to make their cans with.

Beater, here are some pics of my new 8 Port head and the FI intake manifold. I threw in some of my new 12 Port head, both solid and water jacketed version.

Is there more to come? T.Lowe talked about a crossflow head. Is this also coming from you Scott? Or was there just confusion over 12 port and crossflow?

No, the Crossflow head is an entirely different project that both Tom and I have been involved with the development of for a year or two now. He and I will be the distributors of that head when it comes available. This 8 Port and 12 Port head and accessories are mine solely and not the same head as the Crossflow head that has been discussed in another thread. Sorry for any confusion.

Thanx,
Now,should I wait for the crossflow head or get on the waiting list for the jacketed version coming up first.

Decisions, decisions, decisions!

I love it!

A lot of cool top end combos coming for the 6.

i keep checking this thread for more photos, mega excited to see all of this! any ideas of pricing roughly? i take it these will be in huge demand so will no doubt be a long list of others wanting stuff. drop me a pm if needs be.


cheers joe

Now we're gettin' somewhere! Man those big pictures take a long time for my laptop to load but they look good. Scott, I'll give you some time to sort things out but I am working on an entirely new engine build for a future project and I will be asking about different stages of completion on the 8 port and timing covers. Maybe injection setup as well. Beater

Thanks Beater, just let me know how I can help your project get to the next level. To answer some of the other questions, I am currently making fixturing and gathering tooling to be able to machine the raw castings once I have them cast. Pricing is going to be competitive with other companies in the market, if not a little better. I also will have a larger selection of products available than other companies have for the inlines, such as the 8 Port head for the 4 cylinder engines and a few other components. My products will also accomodate all levels of enthusiasts, from the DIY-er who wants just a raw cast cylinder head to tinker with on his own, to the all out racer.

Another advantage to my products is that I am not going to take half of your money as a deposit and make you wait for over a year to get your parts. My parts are going to be on the shelf waiting to be shipped when you call, and then they will be shipped out to you at once. I know this has concerned many people over the years with having to do this with other companies, but I am not going to require this to be done with my parts.

Feel free to ask any questions you have about these parts. Im currently in the unpacking stage now, and can add more pics if anyone needs or wants them.

photos of a 12 port head with teh throttle bodies and rocker cover on? could quite easily sit here and look at these photos all day!

I was on the fence about keeping the L6 in a truck that's going to be my daily driver but after seeing the all those goodies I'm definitely keeping the L6 , you got my wheels spinning hard on some type of mpi / efi.

I will be inline to buy some type of top end.

The possibilities are endless with the combos that are now available and still yet to come. Hold on to your inline for sure, the look of shock on the V8 guys face when you spank his ride is priceless!

What kind of rockers do these heads use? What do their chambers look like?

Beater:

I'll be interested to hear what Scott has to say on the rocker issue as well. But if I had to guess, I'm thinking stud mounted SBC or BBC roller rockers.

Russ

These heads use the standard stud mount BBC 1.7 or 1.8 ratio roller rockers or the Inline 6 1.75 ratio stud mount roller rockers that Crower or Tlowe sells. Clearancing may be necessary on the big body style aluminum roller rockers, just as they are on most any inline application.

Wow! Occasionally blind squirrels find acorns ...

Russ

Here are some more FYI facts about these castings that im sure might be asked sooner or later, its regarding weights of the various items:

Water Jacket 8 Port head: 23 lbs.

Water Jacket 12 Port head: 37 lbs.

Solid 12 Port head: 48 lbs.

8 Port Aluminum 4 Cylinder Race block: 63 lbs.

Here is a pic of the 8 Port Race block. It doesn't get any more basic than this.


Here's a pic requested by pinstriper in the UK.


And for Beater, the next 2 are for you showing the chambers, both raw cast and semi-finished:

I like all.

I like it all.

I see more 4 Bangers in my future. But first the one with the lump port head that Tlowe built. Then a turboed 181 with the water jacketed 8 port head and an experimental with a vintage block and one of the solid 8 ports. And there is still the STUDE-A-BAKER. Man I've got to get that shop cleaned up!

thanks for the photos Scott, love this thread full of inspiration, keeping an eye on this!

Just for reference, the 160 CID Midget engines made 375 HP with this 8 Port head. A turbo 181 should be very interesting.

I use to think engines were just something to play with and get around anywhere, now I look at this type of equipment as works of art in some way. Strange,I know. must be my age.

My .040 over 153 with the 181 crank, Ross flattops, custom Erson cam, 2X1 intake, and Tom's head will be of interest.

WOW! And I'm hoping for 350-400hp with a turbo'd 250 build!
What kind of torque did the 160ci Midget engine make? Any other specs on them? That's wild. Love it.

It is pretty awesome, but keep in mind that this is a full tilt race engine with 13:1 compression and mechanical FI on alky using a .700+ lift roller cam.

However on another note, several racers using the 12 Port head on a race type 6 cylinder have achieved as much as a 150 HP gain over a heavily modded siamese head. So that should give you an indication of the potential available with this head design, either on a 4 cylinder or a 6.

IMHO the best part about the 12 port for the street would be EFI for mixture distribution.

That should make for easier mixture control and more boost friendly.

Plus of course the fact that it's just plain cool.

Everytime you waste a lot of time scratching your head and fabricating parts to fix a problem someone comes up with the solution and your stuff goes in the scrap pile.
shouldn't be that difficult to make a fuel rail to edd EFI to the mechanical FI

Nitrous bosses would be a good thing to add to the patterns as well.

Put the injector bosses on the top for the fuel rail and the bosses for the NOS on the bottom , ah you've already thought of that.

.....and two more bosses for water and alcohol. Oh never mind I'll take care of he alcohol.

CNC, just wanted to let you know your making us Ford guys jealous

You are "Ford guys" because you had real heads to begin with, we're playing catch up and it ain't cheap. You can be as jealous as you wish but we still hear the jeers.

No jeering here , glad to see something happening for the Chevy guys.Looking forward to see what other speed goodies they pull out of their sleeves!

The poor old dears.

Could the 8 port head with out water be drilled for water in a special application giving more leeway in repositioning head bolts and water?

While a solid casting will accomodate a custom bolt spacing and allow it to be placed on a block other than the typical Chevy 153 and 181 blocks, provided it doesn't interfere with any casting features of the head like rocker bosses or valve cover rail, etc... I don't think you will be able to gain any amount of water passages to create a water flow channel, at least not from any of the solid billet heads I have seen as a comparison.

It might be easier to modify the block deck. Just thinking. I need to quit that.

Scott,

You have some really nice stuff going on here. Sorry I have been away from the board for awhile. Stuff going on. Would love to see if you could cast a manifold for a 292 that could use a GM 3800 blower! Something that could be installed in a weekend by most everyone would definately be cool.
I know you have a lot going on with your new stuff. Perhaps down the road we could look at that. Would love to install the intake with the side draughts!

I could help you out with the cad if you want.

cast a manifold for a 292 that could use a GM 3800 blower

as soon as he has 99 other buyers.

Right!!!!

I'd do it if I just had one buyer. Im off till after the first of the year Bob, i'll give you a call and run some things by you.

Add another for that 3800 intake I would be all over that!

I had someone that was supposed to send me a blower to get dimensions from and start this project a year or two ago. Maybe when he sees this he will dig it out and think about it again.

There are a lot of Eatons out there:
http://victorylibrary.com/supercharger/super-eaton-data.htm

Thanks for the link panic, I think the 90 or 112 seem to be the most requested versions to be asked about.

Yes, those are the best sizes.
The "M" number is the volume displaced by each rotation in cubic inches, with a pulley ratio of 2:1 to 4:1 to get the total near the engine displacement.
I have no idea of the nose length from the end of the housing to the pulley centerline, which I suspect may be different between manifold types even among the 3800.
My guess: GM-based 3800 V6 Eatons probably have good interchange of noses between specific applications, which is easy service.
I wouldn't be worried about 1/2" difference, but 2-3" or more might need some work.
I've heard (but no details) that the nose itself is not hard to shorten (both housing and shaft), and I'll bet there is a nice market out there for modified noses (as an exchange) to fit other non-OEM (fabricated) manifolds, like for the other obvious engines: slant 6, Ford 200, Ford 300.

maybe a fresh approach to the pulley relationship on the various blowers would be to use a "jackshaft"(not quite the best term) arrangement utilizing some alternator or other mounting bolts to mount a brkt with a set of pulleys and shaft to "adapt" the unmolested blower's shaft/housing to the engine. Might be cheaper/easier than shortening the blower's length.

In other words if the blower shaft places its drive pully in a plane further forward than the stock six's pully plane, use this above arrangement to catch the blower's pully, and with a correct length shaft, place another pully into the engine's pully plane. jus a thot

http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/blower-drive4.htm

good article, yeah the brktry would need to be pretty sturdy

Man would'nt a potvin setup on an inline six be a fitment problem-your radiator hoses would need supports to hold them up

well, I'm waiting to put my order in for one of thoses 12 port crossflow head with EFI intake.

Well the heads are 12 Port but their not Crossflow. EFI is doable however.

Sorry about that, I went back and read more, your right. Just to think I was about to sell off 2-292 that I have and replace them with 4200 vortec, Thank You, Please let me know when your to take orders....mike

Thanks for your interest Mike, will do!

any updates?

I imagine He'll be here soon but Scott just announced on another site that he has purchased an aluminum foundry so he can cast and machine his products. It is looking up for inliners!

Yeah, great news guys! I have just acquired an aluminum foundry that was shutting down after close to 60 years of business. So I have a feeling that more inline oriented products that have ever been available before are fixing to be hitting the market. Not just the 12 Port stuff I already offer for the Chevies, but inline products for all brands.

I have a feeling that 2013 is going to be a landmark year in Inliner history for product development!

any photos of the new purchase?

Not yet, I keep going to the foundry on a moments notice and just don't remember to get my camera. Im going to be moving it real soon, so I know at some point i'll have my camera handy. Im ready to start melting some aluminum.

Meeting with my electrician tomorrow to get started on wiring one of my buildings to prepare for moving the foundry stuff into it. It'll just take a few days to complete, so in around a week from that point I can begin the move and set-up.

Take a lot of pictures and show us what's happening.

Will do, electrician just left and got a good quote, so he will start as soon as permits are ready.

The 4-cylinder stuff has been available for years. You can find it at http://www.fontana-automotive.com They have a midget engine program and sell parts also. Don't know the $$$'s though. After Joe sold the business he used one of the heads on a stock 153 Chevrolet block in an Opet GT for Bonneville. Did hurt it a few times.
I'm glad to see all the 4 and 6 Cylinder 8 and 12 port stuff coming back and hope it will all works out. All of it will be fun for the street where I believe more will go. Henry Velasco also made crankshafts for the 4. I saw a bunch of them over there a while back.......Good Luck

The Midget stuff no longer uses the traditional 4.400" bore spacing blocks or heads, so that older stuff is no longer capable of competing in that form of racing, and the blocks are made to use the current SBC head that has the larger bore spacing, so virtually overnight, this older cast head and block were obsoleted in that industry. But the good news is as you say, the street market will flourish because of it, and I should be able to accomodate them with there needs and desires for both the 4 and 6 cylinder crowds.

Didn't know they changed the bore centers...All I know is Joe ran one of the heads and injectors on a cast iron block because of the rules at Bonneville. I think something came apart on the lower end causing the block to fail....Still glad to see the stuff coming back....now if I can just find one of those Ansen 8 port heads to go with the original brochure I have somewhere......JD

It's still 4.40"

The race blocks and heads their using now has a 4.500" bore center, the OEM stuff is still 4.400".

Are these the new blocks and engines. ??, , ,

The block in the middle looks like one of Joe's new billet blocks, the pics on the ends are of much older stuff than I have. Here is one of the 4.500" bore spacing heads they are using: Here

Haven't posted here in a while - hello to all.

CNC,
You just posted a pic of the 12 port head on a thread in another forum.

Put me on 'the list' when you get these heads ready for production or ready to take orders.

What size are the guides, spring pockets, valves, runner volume? I did see you posted that they'll run BBC rockers. Do you have a link to the head specs?

Would you consider this head streetable?

Are cam recommendations the same as for the stock/lumped head?

You mentioned in the other forum that this head has potential for an additional 150 hp. If it is used in a lower compression setup (less than 11 to 1) what is the 'bolt on' hp increase estimates? (I realize there are alot of other components that affect this, but...just wondering of a ballpark estimate.)


If anyone thinks I should start a new thread for these questions, then let me know and I'll do it.

Back acouple of years ago you mentioned your involvement with Cotton Perry. I've directed alot of people (moslty SBC guys) to read about it and most everyone is dumbfounded with what he and his team were accomplishing 30+ years ago with a 292!

Jim, these heads originally were intended to be race heads, so most of the development and useage of them has been in that arena. The Duggan head, which is what my heads and Sissell's were originally derived from, have been used successfully in street engines, but still, due to the cost of them, historically most guys have used them strictly for racing.
The 150 HP gain was taken from an Inliner that upgraded from a race prepped cast iron lump head to a 12 Port head, and that was the gain he saw from the upgrade. So that just shows the potential of this head design, and like other manufacturers will say "Your results may vary". But a huge gain can be expected regardless of the HP level you are currently at.
One of many benefits with the 12 Port head vs. the cast iron lump head is that it yields a much higher flow rate at a lot lower valve lift. This is a plus because it allows the engine to make more power at a lower RPM as well because you can use a milder cam profile. Cotton's best lump head flowed 348 CFM, but it took .980 valve lift to get it, the 12 Port head can flow 340 CFM relatively easy at only .750 valve lift.
Since my heads are starting off as a raw casting, you have endless possibilities for valve size and porting packages, however, I think that a 2.02" intake valve would be the minimum you would be able to use. I also am considering making interchangeable casting cores for the intake ports. This will allow a head to be cast with a particular target volume more precisely, and eliminate a lot of time in trying to equalize each port, sorta' like having it cast in a ported configuration to begin with. Then have different cores to cast the head to tailor the customers needs, saving a lot of time in finishing the head as well.
The car in my avatar is my test car, so once I can test a few engine combos I can more accurately evaluate and give better guidance for engine builds.
As for the gains to expect from a milder engine using one of these heads, I don't know, but there are several on here that have also upgraded from a lump head to a 12 Port, so they might be able to give some feedback...I doubt they would go back to a lump head after using one though!

just a side note... the 4200 head with very mild porting on the intake side flows 320 cfm @ .450 lift...

Scott,thanks for the response and I would like to hear from those that have done the swap. Hopefully several will chime in.

No matter what I end up doing, this is exciting stuff. IMO, even if the gains on a mild engine are anywhere near 75-100HP vs a mild lump head, then it is an option that requires serious attention. With that being said, I have to figure in that I have finite finances and will have to weigh my options once you have prodution going and pricing available.

Keep us posted and thanks.

Is there any update?

Just staying busy, I have designed and produced some new products for some of the other Inline engine brand guys, but still ticking away at getting my foundry building renovated and up and going. I have some products ready to cast as soon as I have it finished.