Hey guys i have a 230 that im running in my 63 bel air kustom thats been bored .040 over has duel rochester carbs and a mild cam, when im driving it "lugs" around at start from stand still but once moving runs great, on the hihgway it sounds and runs great but tops out round 70-75 mph on flat ground. Will putting a split duel exhaust on it help me achive a higher top cruiseing speed or help any with the in town driveing? Im open to any other options for helping pep it up, it is a daily driver so nothing to radical ;). thanks for any help and all suggestions are welcome

Young gun hotrodder

These would be a great addition.
http://stoveboltengineco.com/catalog/store/#!/~/product/category=412417&id=1395980

Need to add a better camshaft, that is what is holding it back also.

There are other things to do/add. Lumps ports, larger valves etc, etc.

MBHD

thanks Hank i was looking at those and the tube headers that clifford has
http://www.cliffordperformance.net/Merch...egory_Code=C250
Would there be any power gain differencs between the two or quality? the cam i have in there is aftermarket with specs. of
ADV DUR = 256/256 | .050 DUR = 206/206 | CAM LIFT = .280/.280 | VALVE LIFT = .490/.490 | CENTERLINE = 106/114, am i not getting propper lift with that cam would it be worth my while and money to pull that one and put in another? if so what would be a good replacement. Thanks again for the help

The cast manifolds from Langdon are excellent quality.

Your head would be the next part to work on. Plenty of power to be tapped from that engine with the cam you have.

What distributor?

Baker,
Looks like you are on the way to a good combo.
Cam choice looks great to me especially for a big car, worst mistake would be to overcam it.
Long tube headers always win vs short tube headers or cast.
That said, those Cliffords are short tube so I'd guess them to be about even with Langdons. And the Langdons are iron which is a lot easier to live with and they wont rust out. I'd either go Langdons or long tube (about 36"-40" long).

BUT FIRST -
Seems to me something is wrong-
I wrote the DeuceCoupe Gonkulator to compute these (and other cars). I pulled out a file for a 59 Impala stock 235 powerglide, road test was 0-60mph 16.4sec (at sea level). Guessing in Wyoming at a mile high or so you'd see 0-60mph about 20sec in that stock 59. You can clock that pretty accurate with a stopwatch even if the speedo is accurate and stable. From 70mph up at altitude, I calculate that 59 Impala would take 14 seconds and about a quarter mile to reach 80mph, with an ultimate top speed of 88mph a couple miles later.

With dual carbs and a cam, your rig should already be better than this. Can you tell us details about the car itself, year/options/weight/trans/reargear/beltdrives/exhaust system/weight?

Which carbs are on there?
Theres several sizes of both Rochester B/BC/BV and Rochester MV carb. The little "economy option' Rochester BC 1-1/16" venturi is a real turd in my testing but the bigger Rochester BC/BV/B carbs are pretty strong, two of em should get that 230 moving pretty good.

I'd sort out what you have first, then add headers&duals next.
Post back your cars details and we'll figure it out!

So it sounds like my best bet for headers would be the ones from langdons, as far as the rest of you questions, the car is a 1963 bel air 4 door with a three speed manual with followng ratios 1st- 2.94:1 2nd- 1.68:1 and 3rd- 1:1, my rear axle has a ratio of 3.08:1 the overall weight is about 3,280 lbs. my two rochesters are of the BV variety one wich come on the motor stock, would there be a better carb to use for my setup? and i have a adjustable inline fuel pressure regulater set at 3 psi, It is currently running a stock exhaust manifold with a single lakes pipe. And Tlowe the distributer is just stock with new points and condeser, would there be and power gain if i was to install a petronix Ignitor? and the head has had some machine work done to it new valve seats and been sleeved, what else could i do to help clean it up? I will try and get some 0-60 times to you a little later today Deucecoupe, thanks again as usual you guys always know how to help!

Good deal!
While youre at it with the stopwatch, try to measure 0-30mph as well (pretty easy, can almost do that in your driveway....)
50-70mph is another standard road test time but of course this all depends on your speedo being accurate.

I think 3280 is the shipping weight, my bet is about 3600lb with a full tank but it helps to weigh it if you can. Still I bet top speed should be 90mph plus with your mods, I will try to build a Gonkulator file of it.

Lakes pipe, that means straight pipe no muffler?
Carbs might be too lean for that?
Even stock, those BV's are right on the edge, they usually run better jetted up a size or two. With open pipes they might really want richer jets.....

Stock distrib should be fine up to near 5000, no power gain just reliability gain. Main thing is to have a spark curve it likes, about 10 initial, then maybe 32-34 total at 3000-3500rpm. Plus some vac advance for cruising.

Cool thing about these cars, the revenuers will never mistake your 6cyl BelAir for a "Street Outlaw", its a pretty invisible car.

Yes it is just a straight pipe with no muffler, as far as the jets go I'm concerned that herring up could give it to much gas because as they are now it already seems to get to much gas and I have my fuel mixture screws just under half a turn open from closed, would putting new jets in still help? ( I do not know much about jetting other than doing rebuilds I don't know to much about advance tuning of carbs I'm just a young gun) do you have any advice as to were to start with that? I try and post all the times you've mentioned when I go home from work, and will try and post a picture of my car, with my body mods it doesn't quit look like grandmad grocery getter anymore haha

Baker,
Here is my guess if its running right, assuming you are a mile high or so:
3800lb w/driver, tools etc
Torq 214 at 3400
Powr 175 at 5000
3.39 60ft
13.08 at 56.4 1/8 mi
19.93 at 72.4 1/4 mi
5.55 0-30mph, all 1st gear
14.51 0-60mph, 1st & 2nd
7.98 50-70mph, all 2nd gear
84mph after 1/2 mile
93mph flying mile
99mph top speed 3 miles later

Now, that was with the stock single muffler!!
If you have an open pipe:
3.37
12.94 at 57.3
19.67 at 73.8
5.46 0-30mph
14.00 0-60mph
7.45 50-70mph
85mph after 1/2 mi
94mph after 1 mi
101mph after 3 mi

Hope you get some approx times so we can see where things are!

Well after doing some trial runs I am embaresed to say my times are no where close to what was hoped for, my 0-30 was a measly 9.50 seconds and my 0-60 was a wopping 59.6 seconds! And 50-70 was somewhere around 50 seconds so I got a lot of work to do it apears, on my 0-60 I could only go 50 in second gear before I had to shift, we stoped and adjusted the fuel mixture severel times and it only changed the 0-30 were as the 0-60 stayed about the same, so I am asking for some major help now since I am nowhere close to where I should be

Baker-
If you're adjusting your mixture by using the needles on the carb base, they only adjust the idle mixture. As soon as you crack the throttle, this circuit is no longer being used. This would explain the lack of significant change.

Will Willis

Thanks for the info will6er with that being said any suggestions on what to adjust to improve my situation? Don't get me wrong I know a fair share bout motors but I am no mechanic I'm doing this on my ownwithe the help of my 63 Chevy shop manual and these forums, thanks again!

Start with the basics.There should be a place in your manual that shows you what the spark plugs should look like. White to very light tan = lean. Sooty black =rich. They should be in between those extremes. Really wet oily black means wear in cylinders/rings not sealing and therefore loss of compression, or valve stem leaks. Check the compression. Check the timing. Make sure both mechanical and vacuum advance are working. Check point and plug gap. Make sure your throttle linkage is giving you full throttle on both carbs. One or two little problems can really mess things up. It sounds like you have a cool car and a great learning experience ahead. There are guys here who are willing to help. I wish i'd had access to these guys in the 60s.

I think you'll benefit from some good cylinder head mods. At the least, you should install the "lumps" in the intake ports and adding bigger valves and a performance valve job will go a long way at upping the power and overall performance without sacrifice to driveability.

That sounds like a good starting point for me today Beater of the pack. i will go ahead and check all the standerd things and see if the helps and and report back with any findings i have. without the help ive already gotten from this site from just reading around i know i wouldnt be as far as i am, so thank you guys for all the help! as far as head work goes and getting bigger valves, is there a valve size that you have had a lot of luck with that i could try CNCdude? because that is something i know very little about

Baker,
Beater said it just right.
I'd add the following, you could do this first or in any order really:
* Get a tach in the car if you dont have one already, you need a tach with a stick anyway. Your combo should be shifted at about 5000 or so (when its running right), but you dont want to guess and take it to 6500 instead (BANG, oops.....)

* Take some readings cruising down the road in say 1st-2nd-3rd gear, speedometer vs tachometer:
Heres what I get:
Speedo-----Gear------Tach
20----------1-------2200
30----------1-------3300
40----------1-------4400

20----------2-------1200
30----------2-------1900
40----------2-------2500
50----------2-------3200
60----------2-------3800
70----------2-------4500

20----------3--------800
30----------3-------1200
40----------3-------1500
50----------3-------1900
60----------3-------2300
70----------3-------2700

Those should be close, but note what you get (Better yet, FILM the tach & speedo so you can play em back together later....)

Then, film the tach and speedo together going thru the gears.
The relation of tach vs speedo should be the same.
But I find that with many 50-year old speedos, the speedo will LAG under acceleration. Some tachs will do this too so this isnt foolproof.

One hint is if you let off the gas and the speedo suddenly jumps UP, its catching up cuz it was lagging during the acceleration run.

This is why I use a Gtech instead of speedometer+stopwatch especially with these 50-year old units.

Weigh the car too so you know what youre up against, but that is just a detail compared to the current dilemma, Im sure its 3600-4000, somewhere in there.

In a flat parking lot, try pushing your car. With a stick and 30+psi air in the tires, you should be able to push it easy yourself. If you cant, or it feels like the brakes are on, well, maybe they ARE on.

After doing all this and what Beater said, I would then:
1. Check to see how that cam was installed - is it a tooth or two off? That could cause what youre seeing. You might get a hint of this in a compression check too.
2a. If you can borrow or swap-meet a couple known good carbs, try them on it. I have at least one old BC carb thats just a DOG, no matter what. You need spare carbs anyway!
2b. Put a single carb iron intake back on it, and then try each of your carbs, or even some borrowed known good carb.

But until you do all the Beater/tach/speedo/weight/push it stuff, I wouldnt dig into the motor cuz theres gotta be something WAY off here. Good luck, we will figure it out.

A 1.84" intake valve is the next size above stock that is a common upgrade for not a lot of money. Also, a 1.600" exhaust valve is a common upgrade to do while you have everything apart as well. But more importantly is the removing of the intake port bosses and installing the "lumps". Together, the "lumps" and the larger valves is a very good combo.

The wife is checking in! Engine bay caught fire so he is working on rewiring and a few other things. Thanks for all the support and info. we will keep you up to date.

You also may want to go up on the rear end ratio.
308s are great for highway as long as you stay away from the hills. Had 333s in my 39 and had to downshift to get up any kind of hill. Might also explain some of your bog. 355s are a good bet for all around, decent gas mileage and better out of the hole. Used these in the '39 went down 2 tire sizes from an L to about an H, I think that is about 235 R 15 and picked up about 3 miles to the gallon, as the cam liked it alot better. Cams have a sweet spot where they perform well and get the best mileage. Carbueration, cam, gearing is a complete package and many over carbuerate. Had a friend in MN that was running a 427 - 67 Chevy with a 450 2 barrel and it was fast, like in the 12 second bracket. Hope this helps.

Where 'bouts in Wyo are you? I work in Rock Springs during the week.

The wife? Fire? Are you OK? Engine fires are not a good sign. The fire should be confined to the cylinders, hence the term "internal combustion". External combustion makes it difficult to capture and convert the heat energy into usable mechanical energy. Seriously, I hope the damage is minimal.

..."my rear axle has a ratio of 3.08" BINGO!! No doubt, try the user friendly (or numerically higher) 3.55 ratio, with guaranteed results, your motor is stuck in the basement with those 3.08s, even the light 3.08 geared '63 Chevy lls were slugs compared to the same bodied '62 Chevy lls with their factory stock 3.55s. High school buddy's dad was make-ready boss at Friendly Chevrolet in Dallas at that time and had both years of Chevy lls with 194s--the '62 with 3.55s was a shocker, while the '63 and its 3.08 gears was the dog everywhere, it even had worse milage--now if you were running downhill at Bonniville, or needed a bit more traction, a set of 3.08 ring 'n pinions or two, laying in the trunk on the right side, might help--NO where else, they are worthless to a poor six. My own '63 Chevy ll with a split manifold 194 would do 95 mph flat out, with either the stock 3.08s(about 4100 rpm) or with a with a later installed 4.11(5500 rpm). but one way took about a day and a half longer to get there. The 3.55s enabled a nice compromise and could easily top the century barrier as the motor could also spin 5500 rpm with that gear ratio (in high gear). Theres a good chance that car will go faster if strung out in second gear--do the math

would those results be accurate with unleaded gasoline? Oily sure would. The tail pipes dont turn chaulk white any more now that unleaded is all you can get.

yes everyone is ok and the damage is not to bad for a fire, had to rewire most the engine bay and replace some lines and distributer parts, almost got it all back together and should "hopefully" have it back up and running before long today! thank you for your concernes, i guess thats what happens when a fuel line pops loose, good thing i was fast on my feet haha. but after the delay and once i get it running again i will try and get back to getting those numbers for you guys today.
thanks for the patience and help and sorry for the unexpeted delay


And pritch i am currently in casper the windy city

Baker,
I think nobody mentioned this but be sure to check that the damper hasnt slipped either.
That is, is Top Dead Center where it should be?
You can really only check with the head off, but if it slipped a LOT you can tell thru the plug hole.
Put a dowel rod into the #1 plug hole, then rotate the crank til the DOWEL says its at TDC best you can measure it. Then see what the damper marks say. Wont be exact but they should be close.

I figured, to run as slow as youre running, either
* Speedo is way off, like doing 90 but it reads 60
* Brakes are on or a bearing almost frozen
* Really bad tune
* Cam gear is a couple teeth off
* Crank damper has slipped 20 or 30 degrees ie a lot
Gotta be something big and obvious (once you find it that is)
Good luck

Glad you are OK. If you do the dowel in the plughole thing make sure the dowel is long enough that it won't fall all the way in at the bottom of the stroke. It is way easier to get something into the cylinder than to get it out. I agree about the 3.08 vs 3.55 gear ratio. 3.55 will trim some off your top end but at this rate you won't get up there any way. Everywhere else the 3.55 will be more responsive. But I think you need to check all of these other thing out. It's just part of the pain of making something run right.

well were still haveing trouble getting it to start again, were getting it to turn over and have fuel flow and spark from the coil to the distributer cap but no spark from the distributer to the spark plugs? we tried putting another distributer that i had from another six on but still no spark, its got new points and condenser cap and rotar so those arnt the problem, and after a couple hours of messing with it im all out of ideas, so im comeing back to you guys to see if you have any ideas and for some insight since i now have "tunnel vision" on what i think is the problem. and like Beater of the pack said its all part of the pain of making something run right, any outside suggestions are welcome now!

To exercise a little trouble-shooting here, So if you have spark at the end of coil wire the next contact is the rotor, so button in bottom of cap missing or wrong cap that sits to high to make contact?

Well finaly got it back up and running, but the fuel pump is leaking will see if I fan get a new one tomorrow

What is your tire size and are you sure that carb linkage is opening the carbs all the way. Sometimes a problem is so simple it is overlooked. Did you check your ignition timing and set it as suggested above. Pull your plugs and see how they look they will tell you a lot about your jetting. I have a big block ford six in my roadster with twin side draft carbs they run perfect in Ohio, took it to ColoradoSprings three years ago and it just barely ran and it ate sparkplugs. Went to a local parts store and bought an MSD streetfire ignition and all of a sudden it ran like it was at sea level even at the top of Pikes Peak. Just some easy things to check. If you have went to tall tires that will have the same effect as changing the rear end gear ratio to to high of a gear that you wouldn't have the power to pull. I know a guy that had a nice running chevy truck and decided that it would look cool with a set of swamper tires on it and found out it wasn't drivable.

Just a word about new parts. I once had the same problem with no spark and found a brand new condenser was no good. Might also want to check and make sure the wire from the coil, 12 gauge is not grounded, sometimes the wire going into the distributor is grounded because the insulator is damaged. Just some other things to check. Chopt39

I was just rereading your dilemna and thought that I would also pass along that all the drop in rear ends from '55 to '64 will work. You probably already know this but thought I would say it anyway for anyone who might not know. chopt39

easy,easy,easy to do on the pre'65 models, four nuts drop the backend of the driveshaft, 10 lug nuts, eight axle retainer bolts, jerk both axles out about six inches, the remove about 10 center section bolts, get a pan for the 90 wt. pull the center section out (its heavy) then stick in the next one and reverse repeat(dont forget the oil)--change out to the correct plastic speedo gear in the transmission's tailhousing to keep the speedo working right, and enjoy--dem Camaro and other salisbury rear end boys just wish theirs was so easy. If you get good at it, it could be a 30-45 minute exercise.

Well got everything all fixed and the car running alot better, and after some tweekig i got a couple more times with much better results
0-30 in 1st 5.80
0-60 in 1st 2nd and 3rd 24.84
that was all i was able to get today but its a vast improvement from befor after looking at the plugs ive determined it could beniffit from some larger jets so i will work on ordering some.
i will also look into a new rearend swap since thats easy enough to do

where could i get gears to just do a gear swap at preacher-no-chior

You have a "pumpkin" read end in your car dont you.

Bakerdude,
Great to see the better numbers.
Nice to have a car slow enough that a stopwatch is good enough, huh? (Well, sort of).

Looks like you picked up 50hp or so but youre still down maybe 30hp from where its running like it should.

As noted already, if you have the 55-64 "pumpkin" rear, I'd leave it alone for now and just hunt the swapmeets for a 3.36 or 3.55 pumpkin, then you can just swap. Theyre still around here & there, the rare ones are the posi units, 4.11's, etc.

Also a good chance at the swap meets to get a couple extra carbs.

Next steps I would do on the cars is
1. tachometer - to be in 3rd before 60mph you were cutting off where that engine SHOULD be making power, up to at least 4800rpm.
2. Weight - just so you know what youre up against.
3. Tuning, all sthe stuff noted already.

The stopwatch reports are fun for all of us to read so keep those up, it is becoming quite a sage. I am big on numbers instead of just "feels faster", etc.

i plan on hitting some junk yards this weekend so i will try and get ahold a few mini tachs and maybe one of them will still work haha, mayble ill try and get ahold of some extra carbs and look into some rear axles, never know what you might find

bakerdude, that picture didn't work for me. What did you find and what is happening with your car?

Couple of things come to mind on the surging issue. first, you have to have heat to the manifold. Putting water heat to my manifold all those many years ago was an enormous improvement. Second, you might consider switching to the smaller 216 Rochester B carbs. Smaller carbs, better for drivability. Lastly, you have to synch the cabs in with a Unisyn or similar tool. Both carbs have to have the throttle blades adjusted the same at idle, in essence, in a perfect world, the blades occupy the same relative position to the off idle transition slot or hole, as the other. Otherwise, one carb will lead the other into the off idle circuit and give you the sort of surging/stumble you describe. The Unisyn uses vacuum through the too and carb to help dial in the adjustment.

Yeah beater of the pack I tried to lose a picture but couldnt quit figure out how, the cars been running good (just took a 700 mile road trip at 80-90 mph the whole way) was unable to find a good tach. That wasn't a hideous full size one, sorry for the lack of response been a busy week of work, I have determined the jets in my carbs are to large and giveing the motor to much gas, they are currently .058 in size I have two .054 s in my pile of carb parts I was gonna try or is that to much of a dramatic drop in size? And when I go to put duel exhaust on how important is it to convert to a water heat set up on the intake manifold? Currently it has factory exhaust heat Will I be ok without putting any heat to it?
Thanks a bunch for all the help talk have given me its helped dramaticly improve my engines performance and fun factor!!

Bakerdude,
WOW, cruising at 80-90 it must be running better, congrats.

Heated Intake:
My Clifford is fine w/o heat but thats usually 50F or warmer outside here in Cali. It does hit a dewey 35F-40F in the winter and then its a little rough til it warmd up.

IIRC it can get a bit Brisk in Wyoming?
Yup, I'd really try for manifold heat of some kind.
The old Ford 4bbl spacer runs heater hose hot water thru it, but I dunno of any such 1bbl spacer.

OR, can you use closed air cleaners with a heat snorkel up from the exhaust for fall/winter/spring, and ditch those ugly things for summer?

JETS:
Thats not a huge step from .058 to .054, about right to see what the stopwatch says. How do U know its too rich?

You can also use Holley jets in those little Rochester carbs, just check clearance to the bottom of the bowl and file if needed.

HOWEVER- the numbers dont line up. If you have a .058 Roch jet, then a H64 Holley jet is about its equal. But for tuning, you can easily get any Holley jet so its way easier to tune.

Yes it can deffinently get colder in the winter where I live -5 and 0 degree temps or colder are more than normal but that's what a garage is for but none the less a heated manifold sounds like a must, how difficult would it be to install the water heat the the new repop style offenhauser manifold I am running?

I determined I was getting to much gas when running because when I would drive up hills over a 1/4 mile or so it would lose speed and start to chug up the hill (if going 85 speed would drop all the way down to 70) there would also be a slight smell of gas when going up the hill, once to the top of a hill I then have to drive a while longer at the slower speed to burn off the excess fuel before my exceleration up to 80 and more would return.
This is also a large problem when driveing around town at slower speeds it chives and you can smell the gas until you rap up the rpms to try and burn off the excess gas

But other than those small issues its running great and has far better performance than when I used to run the same motor in stock form!!
Thanks again guys for all the help!

Hot water is fairly straightforward. If you are lucky, you will have an outlet on your them housing on the driver side that you can use as the feed. As for the manifold, just look at the bottom and see if it has the chamber for the stock exhaust heat. if it does, then look to see if there are sheet metal core plugs on the bottom. Many of the intakes do. The core plugs will leak if you plumb water to them so you have to have someone weld little plugs over them so no leaks. Then, just make up an aluminum plate to cover the chamber, drill and tap the plate for two fittings, bolt the plate on just like the stock exhaust manifold, run water from the therm housing to the manifold, and then from the manifold to the heater core in the stock manner. Works great.