I have a Packard 327 straight 8 that I'm working on and trying desperetly to increase the performance of. I seem to run into a lot of brick walls in finding information or parts to make it a reality. I have a spare 288 that will be donating its higher compression head longer rods and solid cam and i have located a local man who can regrind the cam for me. I also have a Edmunds 2X2 intake for the engine and plan to modify a set of V8 Chevy headers to fit as the exhaust spacing is close. I feel these modifications will get me close to around 200 hp but it will be severely RPM limited and 60 year old stock parts (Rods) are sketchy at best. If anyone has any input on non stock parts or modification ideas I would love to hear them. I have considered going big bore on the engine ( I feel the stock stroke is more than enough) but the cylinders will only allow a 1/8 overbore at best, so would cutting the cylinders completely out of the engine and using large sleeves be an option or would it take all support out of the deck of the block? Thanks for any help.

I wouldn't forego any radical ideas like a big bore option.
The limiting factor is breathing, not bore size. Doing some aggressive porting is key to getting these L-heads engines to breathe, also installing larger valves is helpful too and unshrouding the valve pockets in the head.

Look at having the cam reground to a more performance oriented profile, this will compliment the porting also.

I will enclose a link to picture of a cutaway of one of these. It seems that water is pretty close to everything so any major porting would be limited (though I will still do the best I can. I have thought maybe setting the block up on a mill cutting the ports out and installing sleeves in the ports but I don't know if it will seal.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ni9mb6iclwio86k/618_519043579c803.jpg

What is the engine going to be in? What are you going to use it for? How dependable does it need to be?
There is a a lakes modified out of Salt lake that runs a supercharged Packard 8. In 2008 we were parked at the end of mile 2 at Bonneville. Some guys in a late model Ford truck stopped and asked him how fast he was going when he passed them on the way out from Salt Lake that morning. He said he didn't know because the only gauge he didn't have was a speedometer. He said he was only turning 2000 rpm and had another gear to go. The Ford guys said they were doing a little better than 90 mph when he went by. That big Packard 8 didn't even know it was hooked to anything. Big old torquey straight motors don't need RPMs to do their work. The McColluch didn't hurt.

The biggest gains are going to be in the bowl area and with the installation of larger valves. I would focus on the areas that will yield the biggest gains and then go from there. Also, keep one thing in mind, that regardless of what you do to increase the power and performance, its still a flathead, and your only going to get so much out of it, so I would only focus on the tried and true methods for getting any gains. The cylinder head swap is a plus, its also the first step for those building the Straight 8 Pontiac's. Relieving the block is also beneficial, so I would add that to your "to do" list along with the porting and larger valves. You might also look at a turbo or supercharging it with an M90 centrifugal supercharger, it will add a bunch of power for little money.

Turbocharge it! Just 5 PSI will give it about 30% more tq.

It will be in the 52 Packard club coup it came in. I would like to street drive it and I plan to do so rather often, i wont say every day but a few times a week for sure. I am considering some form of forced induction. Turbo would be good, I have a 471 a real GMC one so it would have to be gone through or some form of paxton/ vortech supercharger. Fuel injection is another possibilith but I'm not 100% on that yet. I would like to get 300hp out of it (more if possible). Factory rating was around 150hp so I need to double the output and not blow it up. Thank you everyone for all the answers

Not without a blower.

I kinda figured. If I understand boost somewhere around 7-8 PSI will give roughly a 50% increase in power. so 200 naturally aspirated plus 7-8 PSI of boost would get me close to the 300+ mark. On this type of engine if i had to chose between turbo, GMC blower or centrifugal what would the pros and cons be of each be in reference to heat build up and strain on supporting parts (IE the belt on the 471 running off the snout of the crank not forged pistons to handle the boost. Also any guess on a source for mile long connecting rods? I know this is no 350 Chevy so off the shelf would be out of the question but possibly a Chevy or Ford 6? Or a reasonable price custom set?

Also I looked into the source of that lakester's aluminum head and the guy who made them doesn't anymore, which was bad news but I did find another source Empire Motors out of Texas. He makes an Edmunds replica but with a better combustion chamber design and it is thicker thus holding more water. The price is pretty steep, close to $3,000 would the investment be worth it over a 1953 iron head with a smaller combustion chamber than my 327? The part looks amazing but power for dollar (should I even be thinking about that? lol) would it be worth it?

If money were no object, then something like that would be tempting, but I would stick with the basics at first, until you got it running and determined it was going to be somewhat reliable, then you could swap the head at a later time. As for which type of forced induction to use, im sure they each can get you to your target, and since any one will require a complete fabrication of support components to install it, you just need to decide how much of the fab work you can do or don't want to do and go from there.

Mentally the turbo set up would be the easiest but I am not super familiar with supercharging in general to be honest. One thing that does concern me are the rods. They are crazy long (which to means mean prone to flexing) however they are forged but they have an oiling hole that runs from the big end to the piston pin. Packard guys seem to swear that it is essential to keep the engine from catastrophic failure but even with the tall cylinders I don't feel that it is and an aftermarket rod could be made to work. Any thoughts?

PS CNC-Dude love the signature!

Ha ha...thanks! The center oil hole design is identical to the GMC Jimmy rods, and works well to get pressurized oil to the wrist pins, and also sprays the underside of the piston crown to cool it. That can be a big bonus if using forced induction to help keep piston temps down. Getting a lighter weight piston if possible will help reduce strain on the rods, and could help offset the increased load you will be putting back on them with the turbo or blower. It would be nice if you could find some ARP quality rods bolts from another engine that you could swap into your rods. That would make me feel more comfortable than anything.

Is an aftermarket rod available for the GMC engine (I assume you mean the 302?) I would be much more comfortable With a forged piston and a billet rod to be honest lol Less weight and strain on the crank but then again most modern high performance engines have some sort of piston squirter. Down side being the Packard rods are every bit of 8.500 inches long so it would be a pretty custom set up. I am a fan of a strong bottom end (piston, rods, main studs, main girdle, ect) and it will leave me room to grow should I want to turn up the boost at a later date.

Have a feeling this will be a drawn out process to get the engine to its final conclusion and again thanks for the ideas and info.

There really isn't an "off the shelf" rod available for the GMC, or really any other of the older vintage engines. But custom is another matter, it just becomes a matter of how much you feel like spending to get a set.

Well the rough estimate I got from Arias on the pistons was about a grand, for rods to where I wouldn't have to worry about it I could go 2 grand but then again I don't know if that would cover it. If money were no object I would spring for a custom aftermarket rotating assembly. But the math as i'm seeing it brakes down like
$1000 pistons
$2000 rods
$1000 rebuild, gaskets bearings ect
$??? valves, springs
$200 cam regrind
$3000ish turbo/ supercharger system
and I'm sure much more than what I am expecting but that is over $7000 with just that so about a 10,000 budget would probably get me close.

Thought about the project more. Turbo with a blowthrough carb, any thoughts?

Plenty of people have done blow through carbs take a look at a guy called twisted 6 i think, he does a lot of blow through carbs i really want to see this engine go gets me pumped on my own project! Dont feel bad i heard in modern times on average for a full restore of a vehical it takes 30k and 6 years

On a up note sweet engine straight 8s are really bad a$$ propes to you

Maybey you can talk scott into forging custom parts for you;)

If I understand boost somewhere around 7-8 PSI will give roughly a 50% increase in power

Somehow, this idea keeps repeating.
No, adding 1/2 of atmospheric pressure doesn't increase power 50%. It also cannot calculate what other losses will occur:
1. power to drive the blower (yes, even a turbo has parasitic loss)
2. power lost through higher temperature

More information? Read my article here:
http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/blower.htm

Thanks for the article link very informative.

This is a project that you need to research throughly before you do anything. I suppose that this thread is part of that. Good start. You seem to be doing some at other sources as well. The toughest thing is to be honest with yourself about how this build will be used and build for that. You can spend a ton of money to build a powerful engine that you won't want to drive several times a week on the street.

If it were my project : #1. It would never get finished. #2. I'd build it using stock rods and custom forged pistons. At 8.5" you are not likely to find a better off the shelf rod. Yours can probably be helped a little. #3. I'd start with the stock head and see what can be gained with it. #4. I'd see what improvement could be made with careful port work and bigger valves. #5. I'd run multiple carbs, probably 4 Zenith single bbls with the thought to a blow through McCulloch supercharger. #6. I'd run a long tube header designed to work with the other stuff. #7. I'd sit down with a cam grinder and work out a cam grind that would make this package work. #8. I'd fire it with an electronic ignition. I'd make it all as old school as possible and still do what it needs to do. It's had to be specific without really knowing the Packard 8. This from a guy who has been sitting on a 413" Dodge flathead six for years.

Yeah, start with the basics, a cylinder head swap is easy enough to perform as an afterthought, once you get it going if you desire. Another thing that is often overlooked regarding many flathead style builds that will be using forced induction like this is, that while you have basically (3) choices of how to do it(turbo, roots blower or centrifugal supercharger), a turbo creates a significant heating problem for the flathead, that it doesn't in a conventional OHV engine. That might be why that historically you don't see any turbo'd flatheads, only blown or supercharged.

The fastest Flathead on the planet is Vortech powered....and its pretty awesome too!

I am with beater and cnc. The rods can't possibly be worse than a 235 rod and i have buzzed them to 6 k on a very very few occasions. And I don't ever remember hearing that packard used poor materials in their motors. Rebuild the rods and see if an arp rod bolt can be used. Good pistons, yes, you wont be sorry. Head work yes. Cam, you might consider giving Jerry Cantrel at Schneider cams in San Diego a call. He has ground my last two 261 chevy cams and was very cool to deal with and has been in the biz a long time. He should be able to sort out a grind that will work out. Unless you come across a vertex mag for the motor, I will guess that there are not to many options. I just used bubba's hot rod shop to rebuild a distributor for me. He also does custom work and is not a million dollars. He gave good advice and did a great job on my distributor so I would guess he would do the same for you.

Late to the party (just saw this).


If you are looking for a long rod that is longer than the GMC, I believe Hudson 308 rods can be an option, if rare.



That is a comparison of a 302 rod and piston, to a more modern piston with what I recall as the Hudson rod.

Gent that was building the engine claimed to remove 1 & 1/4 Lb, per hole (7 & 1/2 Lb total) with these.

I don't know how much boost I would put on them, but I wouldn't want to go over 5 Psi.

Thanks for all the interest and information. Beater you are right this is an information gathering exercise to say the least but the project will be underway fairly soon, hopefully. I will check out Schneider cams to see what they can do for me. I have an Edmunds 2X2 intake that will either accept factory Carters or a 2G style carb still deciding on which I will use but I have both on hand. The ignition option is very limited so far stock points, Pertronix electronic conversion, or Joe Hunt says they may be able to make a mag for me. I have heard that about the wide open red line of the Packard L8 is around 4,000 rpm but that could be scared guys talking (anyone have an idea on L8 RPM potential?), however I know it will likely never see the far side of 5,000 rpm. This project is really making me go back to the basics on how to make power out of an engine.

For the RPM range, typically with forced induction, the usable powerband is brought down lower than in a N/A setup for the same engine. So you might actually end up with a peak between 2500-3500 RPM. So 4000 RPM might be a realistic top out for your revs. Going any higher is just unnecessary wear and tear. Plus being a Flathead design, it will probably still be a poor breather even with porting and bigger valves, but still better than if you didn't do those mods.

I really appreciate everyone's input on this I have a lot of questions lol. I'm pretty familiar with OHV engines and how to make them work but an L8 flathead is definitely uncharted territory. I'll keep an eye out of a centrifugal supercharger, so if anyone has one that can push 7ish psi of boost and could be turned up from there with the RPM range I'm looking at let me know. From what I understand with large stroke engines that produce a lot of torque (in perspective) don't really need to rev so a 4000 RPM limit shouldn't be a problem, though transmission selection will be fun. The car has an ultramatic 2 speed (if you can really call it that) I have a couple T-5s but I don't know if they can handle the torque and heavy car combo (they are out of Fox Mustangs) I would like to go manual trans and with this engine I'm thinking an OD would be a good thing.

In respect to valves, In the OHV world my understanding id 90% or the bore diameter should be total valve diameter and of that number 60% should be intake and 40% on the exhaust does that hold true on flathead engines or is one better than the other? so 3.500 bore means total valve diameter of 2.84 (intake and exhaust diameter added together) so 1.7 for the intake valve and 1.14 on the exhaust?

On the supercharging topic if I went turbo would a factory fill in the blank turbo work for this? The engine is much larger than factory turbo engines (as far as I know) but it turns much lover RPM so I dont know if I would need a big guy or not.

The Flathead Ford commonly used 1.500" on the intake and exhaust, but had a much smaller bore than your Packard. So something in the 1.6-1.7 range might not be that unreasonable, just make sure you have enough valve seat area to go that large first. What size are the valves now.

I would have to check but they are not large nothing like a Hudson 308. Also not much meet in the block in that area so putting much larger valves would be difficult at best but just eyeballing it i would think a 1.7 would fit and I would reasonably be able to clean up the bowl area underneath. The intake ports are simiesed though so its going to be hard to increase the breathing much.

I have a Straight 8 Pontiac that i'm tinkering with making parts for, so I know what its like working with an underdog. But every little bit helps out.

Don't the heads have water cooling running thru them?

Packardkid,
I'm trying to take some measurements off the picture for a growing database so I can calculate torq/power etc.

If I scale the pic so rod length=8.5, then I get
deck height~12.3
compression height~2.5
Rod journal ~2.25 (about right)
Bore~3.5 (sounds right)
But this all puts the piston almost an inch above the deck.
I must be measuring wrong or something, maybe you have the right numbers?

Another useful thing would be to degree the stock cam before you grind it, measure valve events at say .006, .050, .100, .200 lobe lift and max lift (probably worn a bit). Modern specs like .050" lobe lift events are pretty standard now but nobody knows em on this old stuff unless we go back and measure it!

Some of the valve size issues will work themselves out under boost. When the door opens the wind will rush in. That thing turning 2500-3500 RPMs will be a beast.

For a standard OD tranny that is tough I'd consider a Borg Warner T 85 with an R 11 over drive. These were used in Studebaker Golden Hawks (supercharged 289 V8) and Ford pickups. The T 85 is what ford patterned the 4 speed "Rock Crusher" after.

When Ron Golden used the Hudson rods in his 302 GMC the gig end had to be narrowed to fit the GMC crank and the crank was ground to Mopar flat head spec so Dodge rod bearings could be used. The Hudson rods are 8". It is interesting how many old race cars used welded rods.

I pulled up some old tech manuals online to come to the 8.5 rod length it is possible that it is the wrong year or something like that. I will be pulling my spare engine down in the next couple months (I know I'm slow)so I will be able to get more accurate measurements on everything. tlowe, the heads do have water running through them. I believe Packard had the same manual OD trans (could be wrong) and I am more than OK using a vintage transmission, however with the fun I am having finding parts for and improving the strength of the engine I don't know that I want all that fun again with the transmission. I have found a company who has a bellhousing adapter for this to a modern GM transmission manual or automatic I might end up going that route. I might look into the Hudson rod option, if I can find some that is.

Slow and steady wins the build. I do believe that Packard used the BW T85. There is no stronger 3 speed OD and very few period stick trannys that can match it. If you are not into "old school" or not seeking an edge in a vintage racing class the whole Packard 8 choice seems to be folly. The T85 would be a kick to drive.

If you are bound to set this engine up against the performance of modern engines I don't think you will ever meet this goal ,"It will be in the 52 Packard club coup it came in. I would like to street drive it and I plan to do so rather often, i wont say every day but a few times a week for sure." If you have deep pockets and want to thumb your nose at a few V8s go for it.

I think a 3800ish pound car would have a hard time against anything modern, and sadly the pockets are rather shallow as well lol. But I want something fun and unique and not many people have a warmed over L8 Packard hence the appeal to me. I have had more than one person (especially Packard purists) say leave it alone and drive it in stock form but that just doesn't appeal to me. Maybe I'm the weird one lol.

You have "Hot Rod" in your veins. The coolest thing about the Studebaker Drivers Club is the attitude of most members that if it was ever a Studebaker it is still a Studebaker. The Packard guys I know are a bit more stuffy when it comes to "improved" performance. You can have a lot of fun with both the modern guys and the stuffy guys, but it must still be running when the fun is over. You don't have to out run them you just have to make them run harder and think. WTF?

Yeah "Hot Rod" for sure lol. I was on a Packard forum for a long time but they didn't really seem to like my ideas and were very against anything that was not factory. I like how you think Beater and on top of any performance modifications I don't want to blow the engine it is to rare and would be way to hard to try and replace.

Even the Packard purist would be glad to see a souped up I8 over a refitted SBC.

Turbo charging would be much easier than fitting a supercharger.

327 cubic inches and low RPM boost.

Check out this turbo selector chart from Turbonetics
http://www.turboneticsinc.com/sites/default/files/Turbo%20Matrix%20.pdf

It does not have your engine size and HP on the chart. So next is to make a educated guess on what to pick.
I have run a 62-1 turbo with a stage 5 wheel and small AR exh housing on a 300 cube 292. It would boost way too fast and produce too much boost at high rpm. In your application this particular turbo might work great. Your rpms will be at a much lower limit, such as 4000 max or lower.
You need to find out the rpms your engine turns at cruise speed.

For this engine I still like the McCulloch. They were made to blow through carbs. Here is a list of venders. John Erb in Carson City, Nevada might be able to help. The info here is not current. John no longer works for Silvolite pistons. He makes lots of Studebaker speed parts. He might help with piston ideas and cam grinds that work with his souped up superchargers. He is a busy guy so things don't happen really fast but he knows his stuff.

Beater,
The biggest problem with any supercharger is the drive connection and mounting to the engine. That is the biggest hangup with putting one on a 250-292 engine. It would also have to be on this I8.

Truth be known, if I had the money and knowledge, I would love to mess with a turbo. However, like a lot of us, have to be a frugal hot rod motor builder. I love seeing unusual inline motors hopped up. I have never seen a packard hopped up. Would be pretty cool to see a packard done up, with or without a turbo.

On the Kaiser flathead six the supercharger mount used head bolts with studs on top. The tensioner was part of the mount and the 2 bbl carb was in a box so it had the same pressure inside and out. It only needed a float change. With me it's a cool factor deal sense this thing probably won't out run a much cheaper no class SBC. I'm just a more old timey guy. Remember I worked my way through college by robbing stagecoaches. That said. There are more guys here that could help with a turbo build which is a little cooler than a SBC.

I would love to go turbo but the cost involved over using the 471 I already have might put it out of the range, for now anyway. The McColloch/ Paxton option would be period correct for sure but it goes back to cost over what I already have (not to say I wont do it anyway as I love the look of them). The turbo option is very appealing because at tlowe said mounting would be much easier.

The idea I'm playing around with right now is a bit of a multistage approach. the 327 does run, its by no means a fresh rebuild but it doesn't smoke. So thinking I can get it on the road with just an intake swap from he factory 2bbl to the Edmunds 2X2, dual exhaust and maybe the head swap with my 288 spare engine to bump the compression another point. That would make me feel better than leaving it completely stock. I could then use the spare 288 as it is externally identical to the 327 to mock up a supercharger system of some kind as money becomes more available.

Unless I change my mind/ get a good deal on another option I'll be using the 471 with the "I already have it" reasoning thinking about mounting it to the drivers side (opposite of the intake/ exhaust)on its side make a carb flange of some sort and run piping over the top of the engine to possible the Edmunds intake. Any thoughts?

As way as what it may outrun it may be surprising, I know much more goes into making a car fast but my Packard at around 300HP (my goal) would have a very close HP to weight ratio as a 2005 mustang (Packard 3800ish lbs stock 300 HP, Mustang 3500 lbs 300 HP). Traction, aerodynamics, RPM potential, ect still means it would not be as fast as a Mustang but it would probably give a Mustang a pretty hard time.

A 4-71 would be my last choice WRT mechanical blowers; it has high weight, big package size, high discharge temps, and high parasitic load for the amount of boost it produces.

That makes sense but at 7-10 psi boost level be significant enough to build excessive heat? the weight is a downsize but I do have more than enough room. I'm not planning on mounting it directly to the intake manifold as in a conventional sense but through piping and have the blower on the opposite side of the engine. Would an intercooler be an option to lower the discharge temp? In my mind I want to use a 471 similar to how a Paxton is used, put it where I want it then run piping to the intake. I know intercollers are used with Paxton systems but the fuel is introduced after the intercooler so I dont know if it would work having the fuel and air snaking through an intercooler.

I saw one a long time ago in pics of a blower setup similar that wasn't actually bolted to the engine. It was in front of the engine at the crank centerline with the blower snout facing the balancer on the crankshaft(direct drive with a coupler). It used a series of 3"-4" diameter piping to direct the flow of air as needed. So anything is possible, its just going to add to the complexity of the fab work required to install it.

Was this on a V8 engine like the old Potvin system from Moon? I will keep an eye out for a decent centrifugal supercharger as it seems to be the best solution of power, cost, ease of use. I still have more than enough time before any supercharger will be on the car so I might be able to come up with a better option than the 471

Not sure of the name, but I do think it was on a Bonneville car, like a lakester or streamliner, hence the front mount(not much vertical clearance), but was a Flathead Ford i'm pretty sure. Might have even been in Joe Abbin's book now that I think about it a little more. I'll look again and see. I'm also pretty sure it was a Roots style blower too, so it could have been 4-71 or 6-71 from back in the day, or similar.

I think I have seen similar setups and they look really BA but I don't think I have the room to add another foot and a half to the front of my engine. What about front balancers for this thing? would it be worth my time to find one that can be made to fit or use a stock/ reproduction one?

I have to say thank you to everyone for input and ideas. Just a few days ago I started this post and we are at like 50 posts now and two pages. I never would have though this many people not only would be interested but encouraging about my decent into madness lol.

Please keep us up on what you are doing. Which ever way you take it will be an adventure. Your enthusiasm may be contagious and might help get me into the shop.

"no class sbc", Beater, that's pretty funny, but so very true,lol.

Don't tell any one but I have 4 vehicles with them and a few more in the engine pile.

I will keep everyone informed for sure, now I have to do something with it lol. In the next couple weeks I'm going to do a really good checkup on it then go from there.

I liked your idea of making a few changes and driving it while figuring more out.

Yeah the car though slightly rough doesn't really need a lot to be on the road brakes, battery, a thorough cleaning on the inside and a few odds and ends, and having a two door hardtop Packard on the road means more to me than having the fastest two door hardtop Padkard 3 years from now.

Now you're talking. Get that thing on the road and fix little stuff while you build the killer setup.

do a packard trans with the borg warner r11 (4 pinion planet gear) over drive. With all the gear choices great advantage can be taken of all that torque. The 49-54 packard trans before the t85 was a tough tranny. They strarted using them in the mid fifties when cad lasalles got scarce. They ended up in a lot of 55 Chevys an so forth. I have another 302 gmc project after I get the fire truck going. It's a 39 Chevy chopped fender less bobber truck. Got a packard trans to Chevy bell housing adapter goin to a Dana 44 rear. 50 packard trans with R11 OD and 38 trans top floor shifter.
Point is the early packard trans were known to be stout. I'm thinking theBW OD will be all kinds of fun to play with

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&e...382068588363771
Check this out.

Thanks for the transmission info I have seen them from time to time on ebay but the shipping is always very rough. I founds a 1949 Packard in a junkyard here but to get the trans I would have to buy the whole car and I have no where to keep it so...

A good book for modifying old engines, including flatheads is Phil Irvings, Tuning for speed. Though written many years ago it is still available , & still relevant. Phil designed among other things the Vincent engine, Repco Brabham, & Irving heads.
His writing style is easy to read, & quite useful.

Floyd Clymer's book "Souping the Stock Engine" has a lot of good generic information on warming up older engines. Some basic paths to power are discussed.

Tex Smith's Flathead Ford hot rod book is good for all Flathead's of any brand and has pertinent info that can help you get the most out of one from the mild to the wild.

I've seen that at Bonneville for the past several speed week events.

IIRC I saw it there before I saw it in print.

Wow, It looks a lot like the one on the first page of this thread.

Thanks for the book info going on Amazing right now. I have one that is pretty interesting that some of you might find useful "Hot Rods: How to Build and Race Them" written by John Christy in around 1960

Wow $200 for tuning for speed and $70 for The Tex Smith book! Might need to save my pennies for those lol.

Sorry I couldn't Find the Phil Irving book.

Clymer

Tex Smith

"Souping the Stock Engine" was mostly the work of Roger Huntington. Floyd copyrighted and published the material. The same arrangement produced the book "How to Hop Up Chevrolet and GMC".

Check your local library, you would be surprised what they have. I last read "tuning for speed" by borrowing from my library.

Good idea cc I will check that out.

Regarding the library...They can usually get books on an inter-library loan from just about anywhere. I've gotten books through the library here that were from across the country. One was one of a very small number in circulation. Anyway, give it a try. If it's out there, they'll find it and get it for you.

The Packard boxes were tough, their only weak link was their cases which would split caused by the main gears pushing away from the cluster gear under big loads, resulting in a lot of guys wrapping and welding steel straps around them--very tedious welding task as the cast iron on trannys is like a block, needs nickle rods to go with preheating/ welding short beads/then peening 'til cool, then start all over again. Using the early floor shift box with an overdrive makes for a fun transmission. Supposedly the Packards had a sychronized low gear 'way ahead of their time (maybe it was the B/W overdrive?). The Cad Lasalles were the "rock crushers" of their day, even used in the early rails-usually using second/high only. When they ran out-they ran out--they didn't make very many Lasalles compared to Fords or Chevys.

I don't know what you are really wanting to wind up with but years ago (early 60s) a kid in our neighborhood traded a summers worth of yard mowing for a 52/54 Packard 4 door with a ultramatic in it that had no low range but he was driving it. My Dad told him that was one of the toughest transmissions ever built at that time, and to check the trans fluid it might be low. Never found a dip stick pulled a plug on the side of the case and filled like a manual trans. using regular trans fluid and low gear started working. The next thing I knew he was drag racing it doing high RPM ( for it) neutral drops he kept messing with it and got it turning in the High 16s. Which was fairly fast for a street car back then. Never did blow the trans but finally tore the rear end out and sold it for junk.

Bill, wow lol, 16 second quarter mile times is pretty good for a stock Packard faster than I would have guessed. I can never find anything on the Ultramatic I was going between the adapter to modern auto, modern stick, Hydramatic 4 speed or Packard manual swap. The Ultramatic has a really good torque converter it is a full lock up style from what I read that is similar to a modern one. But again NO hot rod info on them at all. I was concerned about how tough they were and if making decent power would fry it, but if high RPM (in perspective) neutral drops in a 4k pound car wont hurt it I might keep it for a while, I have the one in my car and one on my spare engine so that's 2 I can abuse lol. Worst case use up my cores and go to something else later down the road.

Packard three speed were used in mid to late 50s for drag racing. A google search will find you some old HRM articles on the subject. You an adapter for it and they were also available with BW OD. Packard had their own trans thru about 54 and then they used BW trans. Some of which were T85s which were also pretty tough with R11 OD, don't know if they would bolt up to a straight 8 bell housing or not.

Robert is correct a lot of blown Hemis had Packard 3 speeds behind them. PackardKid I am not sure that it was completely stock and I think he had lighten it up some but it still was a big square box. He would pull up to the line and when the flag man would point at him to be ready he would push it clear to the floor and it took about a week to wind up or so it seemed. We were racing Chevys with alum flywheels in those days which reved quick so the old packard sounded weird it reved up so slow and it scared the flag man to death cause he just knew something was going to fly apart and hit him. That old packard hurt a lot of guys feelings that had 1957 283 single four chevys, which was a fairly fast street car back then. High 16s and low 17s

I don't know about Packard autos but Studebaker automatics were Borg Warner and were tough. From '57 to the end Packards were Studebakers.

If the Packard transmissions were that good, might explain this weird adapter plate I picked up Packard trans to an FE ford, wondered why that thing existed. I will keep an eye out for a Packard manual, an OD would be nice with that slow revving engine an OD could potentially be an acceleration gear instead of a fuel economy gear. I have a pile of Mustang T5s but I dont think they would hold up in such a heavy car with a pretty decent torque number. Unless I am mistaken a Packard V8 like from 1955 is the same as a later Stude as way as heads intakes ect the bolt on stuff but I'm not sure about the transmissions, I think they took the best of what each company had when they merged and went with it. I love the story Bill, I wish people were that creative these days. It might be a long shot these days but I would love to give some V8 guys a run for their money with mine. Think I'm going to need to invest in a hole saw lol.

In '56 the Stude Hawks used the big and heavy 358 Packard V8. It was too heavy and caused front suspension problems and really didn't perform that well. Stude V8s are plenty heavy themselves. Studes front end was almost the same from '52 through the Avanti. It worked well. From'57 on Packards and Studes used Stude drive train. The 289 Stude V8 was used in the Hawks and the Golden Hawk had a McColloch supercharger. The good tranny before the T10 4 speed was the T85 which came in standard and overdrive. These are all BW and the T85 used an R11 OD with 4 planateries. T85ODs were used in lots of cars and pickups at least into the '60s. I picked up one from a '49 Lincoln for $100 a couple of weeks ago. The T85 is what Ford patterned their "Rock Crusher" 4 speed after. The biggest problem for you would be clutch linkage and 12V Solenoids if you are 12V.

I think some Packard inlines used superchargers. There was just a Kaiser setup on eBay.

My dad had a '56 Golden Hawk with a 352 V8. It went 125 mph. Stock. They had the prettiest instrument panel in the industry with SW gages inset into an engine turned background.

But the brakes were lousy.

OK, 352 I gave 'em 6 ci. That would have made them lighter. HAWK

Good stuff here and on the '57 page it mentions getting rid of the Packard automatic trans for the Studebaker BW Auto. In '63 an fore high school friend I was working with at Montgomery Wards Auto Service had '60 Hawk. 289, 4 bbl, T10 four speed, twin track after I drove it I quit making fun of guys who drove "Strugglebuggies" Studebakers all used SW gauges but from the '55 Speedsters through the Hawk line and maybe the GTs the cluster was impressive.

Have a possible line on a R9 transmission for my Packard any thoughts on if it is something I should peruse or are better options out there? I remember you guys talking about the R11 transmission what makes it better (or worse?) than the R9?

If your sure the T5 is not an option, you can look at the big input shaft Ford Toploader tranny. They have a low first gear and I used one in a heavy BBC Camaro with slicks and never had any issues with it.

I dont know about the T5 I have a hard time keeping them together in my in my Fox bodies. The Packard is close to 1000 pounds heavier and the factory rated it at around 250ish foot pounds or torque. I think that would make a T5 cry. I did some digging the factory rated the HP and TQ peaks at 2000 RPM. Even with going lighter with parts and doing what I can to bump up the peak I really don't know how much more I would be able to get RPM wise out of it. I am kinda thinking a taller gearing in the transmission and rear end to keep from running out of RPMs to soon? It sounds kind of backwards but with the limited RPM band would that be a good idea?

The R 11 refers to the Borg Warner over drive unit used mostly on Borg Warner T 85 three speed transmissions. The T 85 is very strong and was the model for Ford's "Rock Crusher" four speed. The R 11 is a heavy duty OD and has 4 planetary gears instead of the the R 10's 3 gears. The T85 R11 combos were used in Studebaker V8s including Hawks and pickups, Lincolns, Ford cars and pickups, and more.

I've never seen one of these before but I'm sure it would work for you if money is not an issue.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/281229301802?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Well if I ever wanted the longest transmission I think that would be close to a winner. Mostly I am concerned about getting everything set up for say a T5 or a R11 then finding out the hard way that it wasn't the right choice. The torque on this thing is pretty healthy and with the planned modifications it will only go up. In the R11 style transmissions how do they work exactly it is a manual 3 speed with an electric overdrive? I am sure I could find lots of info online about them but I think I need it in cave man terms if anyone wants to share.

Well if I ever wanted the longest transmission I think that would be close to a winner. Mostly I am concerned about getting everything set up for say a T5 or a R11 then finding out the hard way that it wasn't the right choice. The torque on this thing is pretty healthy and with the planned modifications it will only go up. In the R11 style transmissions how do they work exactly it is a manual 3 speed with an electric overdrive? I am sure I could find lots of info online about them but I think I need it in cave man terms if anyone wants to share.

Yes, They are 3 speeds with an electric solenoid and governor that control the OD. When set up properly they are fun to drive. You can set them up so that you and control the OD with a button. They are strong but old technology. The 12V solenoids are getting harder to find are becoming expensive.
T85 R11 wiring
BW 3 speed OD information

I like the idea of a manual transmission behind this thing and at least I know they were geared somewhere close to what the engine needed and that they are strong enough to hold the torque of the engine. From what it sounds like the OD setup is similar to a gear vendors. If I find the right deal on one I might jump on it otherwise I will keep looking for a better option.

Today I've been working in the trans for my '26 Chevy roadster build. It is a BW T 86 OD. It's not as strong as the T 85 but plenty strong for my 4 banger. Here is some more info.
LINK

Well I found a guy with one of the 9 main engines with crank and head (sadly not the aluminum one) And he has a bell housing flywheel and clutch fork as well. Probably going to jump on the 9 main engine it would give me a stronger base for my mad scientist plans I have for this thing. My next questions (seems like they never end) I did some reading up on the R11 electric over drive transmissions (thanks Beater) and I don't think it is right for me and my project. So from what I can tell I have a couple options. I could get an adapter plate a company makes for a good chunk on change and put some kind of GM auto behind it thinking 700R4 for the overdrive and lack of requisite computer to run it. That same company can met me up with everything I need to put a GM manual behind my L8 so any factory or aftermarket manual would bolt up or my last option get the Packard bell housing and make my own adapter plate any thoughts? I will put the link to the company that makes the adapters maybe some of you guys could use one of the other adapters they make.
http://transmissionadapters.com/Packard%20to%20Chev%20adapter%20kit.htm

For some reason my posts keep duplicating themselves sorry for any annoyance and if anyone knows how to make that not happen or how to delete the copy post let me know.

There is a problem with the board right now. When I post something I get a message but it does post. I go back to the BB selection and click it to get back to the board and my post is there.

If it was me and I could afford it I would go with one of the automatics with OD for this project. You are going to want an OD for the highway so you can run rear end gears that will bring this thing to life. You know you are going to hammer it and in the long run those autos are stronger and parts are easy to find. For the kind of stuff I build the old trannys work well.

Turbos are hard to load with a manual trans, try to keep with a automatic and you will be happier. Load meaning make boost.

Well with some delay Ia m finally ready to dig into my Packard project. I have set a loose date of completion of October 19 at the Billitproof drags here in Florida. I have a lot of work but I have a good buddy pretty charged up to see this thing on the track so at least I have some help.
Build plan for October I plan:
1)to convert to 12V electrical with a pertronix conversion in the distributor and an electric fuel pump

2)Get the bakes in order

3)Regrind the cam

4)Swap to my higher compression 288 head

5)If I have the time and money install a 4L60E or 4l80E transmission summit sells them for around $2000 (these are the 4 speeds not the newer 6 speeds)

6)9 inch rear, gears and posi

7)Figure out NA induction ( I can either use my Edmunds manifold with 2x2s or I have some Solex side draft carbs that would look really neat on the engine)

8)Sort out the exhaust thinking some modified SBC headers and dual exhaust

9)strip the interior as it is mostly trashed and I wont have time to get it finished by October

10)Shave as much weight as I can without permanently modifying the car as I want to restore and re-install a lot of it at a later date (bumpers exc)

11)Take care of some odds and ends such as making the doors open or stay closed respectively.

If anyone has any tips tricks or parts for sale that could help with the project feel free to let me know. If you are in Florida and close to the Lakeland drag strip hopefully you will see the car in October.

Just a little project update.

Moved into a new shop still waiting on the power company to turn the lights on hopefully that will be this week.

The Packard is moved in and I have a 9 inch ford rear that is waiting on a working welder to install.

The spare engine dissasembly has started to grab the needed parts.

I found a local man who can grind the cam or Isky says they can as well.

Still deciding on the induction for the naturally aspirated configuration (2 2Gs on a custom intake I already have the carbs, 2 factory carbs on an Edmunds intake that I already have, twin Solex side draft carbs on a custom intake or 2 holley 2bbls on a custom intake)

A buddy has a 700R4 he would like to trade for my factory Packard rear that he needs for a hotrod project.

Ignition is mostly sorted out MSD 6T box, Blaster 2 coil, MSD 3 step. I just have to ID the distributor to get a Pertronix module it is either a Delco or and Autolite but the ID tag on both of my distributors are severely corroded and unreadable.

I started picking at the flaking paint in a few areas and I have more rust than expected but not in any serious areas which is a plus.

Still shooting for the Billitproof drags in October.

Finally got power at the shop. Cleaned all the rats nests out of the car which was a bigger project than I had expected. Found some pretty good rust in the floor that will have to be attended to before the car goes down the track but it is nothing too bad considering the history of the car. I attempted to fire it up but I think the condenser is bad and it was not getting spark. It did rotate over however and it did that just fine with no weird noises.

The engine removal has started I just need to take 6 bolts out of the transmission cross member and it should be ready to pull. I popped the head off the engine and was pleasantly surprised to find no excessive bore wear. Based on a visual alone it seems that I should be able to put decent sized valves in the engine at a later date which should help the breathing a lot. Still deciding on the intake setup but I have a few months, October will be here very quickly so hopefully I can still get everything done in time.

Awakening this from the dead what ever happened to this ride???