Is your Hei distributor in phase or out?

Mine leads by 37 degrees.

hello....thanks for comment, but do you know what i mean when I talk about a distributor that is in phase and 1 that is out of phase?

Why do you ask Lee?

As I understand it, unless one is eliminating vacuum advance or even 'locking out' centrifigal advance (in order to optimize performance in a very narrow RPM range) there is only one correct orientation for cam, cap and rotor (which is 'phased' as designed by GM).

Tell us more. I am curious - and certainly no expert . . .

regards,
stock49

hello..the main reason I ask,is that MOST GM HEI distro's are OUT of phase-a flaw that occurs in mass production...this includes Inline 6's,V-6's and V-8's.....I dont think GM planned it this way-and what cap orientation do u have?
seems you will find a few that are in phase..
out of phase distro's will work for street(but not as good as an in phase distro-you only find how an out of phase distro affects performance in a high rpm race engine.....
I will explain as time goes-just curious who knows what this means-Anyone?

ps Desert Dove, the 1 I sent u is in phase....

Sorry for my facetious remark. I didn't know you were being serious. I thought it was a question like "is your adjustable wrench right handed or left handed?" My understanding of phasing is the relationship of voltage to current in an electrical circuit. I await the answer to your question with curiosity. Again, my apologies.

no problem Eric, I am just curious who knows this concept.....

Okay Lee . . .

I'd never heard of this HEI phase 'flaw' before - but then again I have always been a spectator when it comes to racing - but I do like to read about the concepts that make certain feats possible . . .

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that I understand what distributor 'phasing' means:

Regardless of how the spark is set free from the coil (breaker point(s), or HEI trigger) the juice doesn't flow in an instant. It takes time to build and it tapers off.

For this reason the juice for the spark should be set free when the rotor tip is just aligning with the leading edge of the cap conductor - and should rise and fade as the tip slides across the cap conductor face. If the breaker points close or the trigger fires to early or late it impacts the quality of the spark at the plug and may even create burning and pitting on the rotor tip or cap conductor. So out-of-phase is early or late in this alignment; a condition that is most notable at high RPM when time and distance get very compressed in the geometry of a distributor.

regards,
stock49

I once thought I had a distributer that wasn't quite right but eventually I came to realise it was just a phase I was going through.

I didn't post this willingly. The little voices in my head made me do it.

Mike

I know the feeling.

John M....

PS: Considering that electricity travels at the speed of light, I doubt that anything we do inside the cap will matter at all.

hello....well stock49 you are pretty close....

As far as not being familar with this concept, many know this, many dont....
for those needing another source to verify this contact Tom Langdon.....
I also confirmed this with the Race engine builder who built my 292 race shortblock.....

DUI distributors in Memphis-ask for David-he knows me as "2 peice shaft guy"( for some of the 2 peice shafts GM used on these distro's-)

PES is familar with this also....

what this has to do with is-the rotor lining up with post on cap-some are,most rotors do NOT...if rotor is off -which is basically "connected" to cam, then timing will be off- and yes the engine will run, but not effiently- hope this helps....
ask specific questions..........I will answer-yes this is simple, but when i got into racing last yr i was introduced to it- but it didny mean much then-an engine with an out of phase distributor will run , but not as good as it could....

John M.-yes what happens inside of cap is EXTREMELY important-

this problem occurs when the plate is pressed on incorrectly on the shaft-if it is off and not pressed on at right place in conjunction with where gear falls on cam, then timing can be off...

I find this intriging-I checked 6 distributors-4 of mine, at 2 at AutoZone....


Again, contact Tom Langdon to verify.....

or DUI-they said an GM HEI in phase distribuor does not need a "box"-"boxes" are only band aids for an out of phase distributor due to the fact that the sparks duration is longer which makes up for this misalignment of the rotor and cap.....

if this is new to you, dont "kill the messenger".....

Lee, just a little off the topic but as I was reading your last post you stated "I also confirmed this with the Race engine builder who built my 292 race shortblock....." I was always under the impression that you did all the research, work and building of your own motors, or is it just the head work that you do?

hello..on my 292 race engine, i had an experienced expert race engine builder bolt my short block together-he is a former 292 Chevy 2 racer running consistent 10.20's -30's.and now builds 5-6 second 1/4 mile dragsters...I DO do ALL the research I share here but I havent done ALL of it as I have stated MANY times-the reseach I continue to do and have done comes from ALOT of work I have personally done on heads AND and engines blocks AND help/input I have gotten from MANY-particularly the "old timers" as I have continued to refer to and they seem to see how much i ACTUALLY have learned about these engines-its seems that some of the 1's in the Inline world whom THINK they know things question me but the 1's that know things seem to treat me with respect-and VERY little of what i have learned was for free-I had to PAY for this knowledge and I keep sharing lots here that i HAD TO PAY FOR...... SOOOO, All i have tried to do is share what i have learned to those here interested in Chevy Inline 6 engines and the special techniques that work BEST-seems many want to attack me instead of accepting what I say- sooooooo....what I dont understand is why what i bring here to share is not trusted or accepted...do you think i am trying to mislead you or be dishonest?.....
No i do not build my engines in 1 way- i do not have all the machinery to do block boring, honing and valve grinding....I have NEVER stated I have a machine shop...I have stated MANY times the machinists i use say this and that-did you think I personally owned a machine shop?..... I will add this- I do many things with these engines and continue to do more and more-if things keep working as they have been, who knows where all this will go....

is this inquiry into what YOU think i have said-as opposed to what i ACTUALLY have another meaning?.....interesting.........

Can I help you with any Chevy Inline project you have?

any comments on this distributor concept?
Anyone want to know how to figure out if your distro is in phase or out?

Thanks for the reply Lee. I understand what you are saying. My Inline project is a stock 292 for driveability and economy so there isn't much to do there.

Well Lee . . . I was curious a week ago . . . that hasn't changed. Just how does one tell if a dizzy in phase?

Dear Lee;

In 'phase' with what??

JM.....

hello....ok, here is basic concept-let me answer question of "..with what?"....well, this means that the rotor tip is lined up with post on cap-it is referred to as In phase when rotor tip is in exact timing with post on cap at the correct time for accurate timing( accurate timing defined as when cam gear, distro gear and pressed on plate on distro shaft are all working togther as they were designed-when just 1 of these is off your timing is "Out of Phase" as it is described by ignition experts.....and since cam distro gears are ground/cut at same place on cams, what is left to cause error is the place where the top plate is pressed on to the shaft.....when the shaft plate is not accurately pressed onto the shaft, the MOST accurate lining up of rotor tip and post on cap DOES NOT occur-however there WILL be a spark-1 that will fire the post and the correct cylinder but not as it was designed....due to absence of GOOD quality control, the place the top plate on shaft is pressed is INACCURATE-when ever an aftermarket spark box is added, the longer duartion spark can now have a better chance of being closer to accurate-but as DUI calls it-its just a band aid-ask them about this, they have been building there distros for 25 years now......

the way to check your distro -this is easier with distro out of engine but can also be in block....
what you do is line up pickup( 6 magnet points that stay stationary on distro housing) with the other 6 points that are connected to the shaft....you will feel "pull" of magnet at this point....now, pay attention to where the rotor tip is and make a mark on the housing below the edge that can be seen with the cap in place....at this ponit, you can tell if your distro is in phase or out of phase as the ignition experts refer to this condition-.....
now place cap on housing-does the mark you made(a sharpie pen works great) line up with the post on the cap ?.......

if it does your distro is "in Phase"....
if it doesnt your distro is "out of phase".....

I have been looking at a lot of these recently and alot of the Inline 6 HEI distro's are "out of phase".....
hope this helps.....

Dear Mr. Lites;

You should really take what these folks are telling you with a "grain of salt".

You see; An HEI igniton system is only needed on an inline engine in specialized conditions. One of these being (required by US Gov.) around 1971 or so, as part of their 'air polution' scam on the public.

Another would be; frezing tempatures.

Another would be; Commercial/high mileage engines.

Another would be; the racing engines you have been learning about. These represent a very small percentage of the total engines Mfg. in this country.

The remainder which have worked just fine since the 1930s makes this whole concept simply "food for the rose garden".

Many distributers use a rotor with an semi-circular tip which compensates in (V-8s) using a chain driven camshaft.

Good luck with your racing.

John M..........

hello...thanks John forwishing me Good Luck...

I am not sure by your comments what you are saying....

You need to do follow up research on this...
before you make anymore comments try contacting Tom Langdon Of Stovebolt....he knows all this too well and knows this problem that the distro's have and as he has spoken to me he only deals with street engines..
I take it as if you do not agree with me, but John, this isnt even about me-its about these distributors-
As I have stated, Please check with Inliner Club Mmber Tom Langdon....and owner of Stovebolt who advertises here and wel respected in this commnunity.....

I was wondering who might make this kind of comment....

Are you going to confirm this with Tom Langdon or just question facts that many know?

its like this, maybe you didnt know this-its ok I didnt know this till last few months myself-but both Tom Langdon,PES DUI and my race engine shorblock verfied this....
do you think I am misleading you or do you just not understand this?

Dear Lee;

I think It's you that have been "mislead" into the importance of it all. I believe, you belive it.

You see; any "out of phase" would be corrected in the initial timing adjustment. The rest would be 'phased in' during a Dyno tune prior to puting the car on the track.

Otherwise It's meaningless.

Example: I once went on a service call where the engine was "running funny". Upon inspection I discovered the rotor had hit the cap & knocked it "out of phase" to the point where the tip was between electrodes. It was running because electricity travels at 'light speed' and there was less resistance there, than in the next cyl. in the firing order.

I hopes this helps.

John M.....

hello..glad i can help you vent John...

as I stated, maybe you dont understand...its ok....I am sharing this to those that find it a learning experience-I know you mean well but please for your own knowledge, do follow up research on this...at this point you are not just questioning me but others...have you contacted anyone else I mentioned here?

But before you question this concept-its obvious u question me- contact Tom Langdon....
its ok if you dont like this concept, but find out what he says........
have you talked to him yet?

I sat with a distributer last night and studied it carefully as I rotated the shaft and the body.
As the description of phasing states the rotor tang should be exactly lined up with the contact in the cap when the pole piece and reluctor tangs are perfectly aligned. Now the spark discharge would occur across the full contact areas of both the rotor tip and the cap terminal. Ok thats cool and makes sense. Now lets toss a wrench into the works. Suppose that for a 6 cylinder engine the cap terminals were not all precisely 60 degrees apart. Now you end up with #1 firing at the set timing of maybe 12 degrees, #5 might fire 11 degrees, #3 then might be off and fire at 13 degrees and so on. All the trouble of phasing or checking for phase to obtan maximum results is pretty much wasted due to an unbalanced firing situation created by a cap that is not exactly perfectly spaced.

Ok so we can overcome some of the loss of spark energy due to an out of phase unit by increasing the coil secondary output in amps and volts, but we still have a timing imbalance from cylinder to cylinder depending on the tolerances that the cap was made to. A bad cap is easy to find if you have your balancer marked all 360 degrees. Just move your timing lights induction pick up from wire to wire and see if it shows all cylinders exactly 60 degrees apart when firing.

We split hairs to make sure each cam lobe is exactly in place and worry that each port flows the same as the next and each header tube is precisely the right length, ad nauseum. Why not get our guts in a knot and start worrying about whether or not our distributer caps are perfect??
I know I won't be able to sleep at night until I'm sure mine is.

Overall I think Lee brought up an interesting item but for me at least its nothing I give a second thought to on a street motor, stock or otherwise.

Mike

hello.....great comment Mike!!!!!!!and thanks....

let me add this Mike- according to Tom Langdon, this problem is a problem with a street distro or higher rpm race distro.....

PLEASE!!!! contact Tom Langdon about this- as he and I discussed this, he explained he only works on street applications and this out/in phase is applicable to both STREET and RACE- the distro doesnt know what type engine it is in!!!!! LOL

again thanks Mike for taking time to look at a distro....has anyone else? has anyone checked up on this concept? you dont have to like me, but that doesnt mean this very important concept is going to disappear....

Dear Lee;

If Mr. Langdon says that GM makes some of It's HEI distributers "out of phase"; We all agree.

So what??

There have been 100s of millions of engines made (worldwide)prior to the CLEAN AIR ACT, which created the HEI.

It(the device)was mandated by Congress (535 politicians/lawyers)not Automotive Engineers. That occured after/later.

How is it not being perfect, a surprise or meaningfull??

Yours truly, John M....

feel better John?

John its not GM's goal-its just big business wanting to make $$$$$ at expense of doing something right.......

what do you do for a living?

ps ...John try talking to T. Langdon to find out what he is saying........isnt that best for info?....

The terminals don't have to be exactly spaced in the cap. The timing accuracy is established by the magnet/reluctor or cam/points, not the cap/rotor. There only has to be enough overlap (time wise) between the rotor tip and the cap post so that the gap between them is small. Think about how much the rotor is shifted in time due to timing adance.

wrong again.........

but why believe me?

You nailed it Jason

Jim

you guys just dont get it-you wont believe me and wont check up on my info....

its too bad....and ,well I am sure you will NOT confirm this with anyone- just DISAGREE with Lee right?

you guys.... its ok, though 1 day you will get it and u will remeber me, till then u think i am crazy
anyone call Tom Langdon yet?
or are you scared to find out truth?

hey, your all probably gonna all tell me to shut up because I've never even taken a distro apart, (really new to working on cars) couldn't the "phase problem" just be corrected by turning the reluctor or pickup or whatever its called so that it is aligned when the rotor is aligned with the post..

a question. wouldn't it be better for the pickup to be aligned when the rotor is just starting to touch the contact the cap. this way you can ensure contact from the begining of the spark to the end and avoid cutting off the connection at mid spark.

Make any sense? also, isn't there any delay between the signal to spark and the time it takes the coil to actually start discharging?

Hey Lee, I'm just asking legitimate questions here; please don't go off on me too..

hello....thanks for comment..and I wont go off on you, LOL....I actually respect you more than most here..you at least think about this.....I really thought MOST here would like the concept-I never thought I would be attacked sooooooooooooooooooooo Hard on trying to help...I had a WOW moment when i learned this!!!! I really thought most here would want to find a more HP with this concept-I see I was VERY wrong......so lets see,Clifford Performance is bashed, PES, Lee and NOW Tom Langdon-wow!!!!!!!!
well it would be nice if it were that easy, but unfortunately it isnt....the plate that is pressed in shaft has to be at a PRECISE place for optimum ignition timing...heck it will fire and there will be a spark no matter where it is-its just, how good do you want your engine to run?
all i can say is same thing over and over...yes there are many good questions, but what i have stated is truth.....

In the year 1490 those that believed the world was flat, were telling the truth too.

Mr. Sternhagen, an Electrical Engineer said it best. I suggest you read it over etc.

John M...

I say, just switch over to a distributorless system.

Luis;

That's a great idea but may be to costly to be of any real benefit like the HEI.

The ones used just prior to "clean air" were just fine (90%)as they rarely turn faster than 2,500 & were easy to fix 'on the road'.

John M.....

That's why I was checking out the GM DIS system from a 3800cc V6, cuz I figure if the sparks are once every 120 degrees of crankshaft rotation then why wouldn't it work on an inline six. The DIS system (direct ignition system) uses a crank sensor to trigger the spark, a DIS module (controls the ignition) and a coil pack which fires two plugs simultaneously (called a wasted spark system).

A wasted spark system fires the plugs on a cylinder in compression and the one in exhaust. The 'wasted' spark aparently doesn't use much power so most of the power is used to ignite the fuel in the other cylinder.

One advantage of this system is that the coils get to dwell for a very long time (because there are three!) ensuring I nice long and strong spark.

Again, If the sparks on a 3800cc V6 are 120 degrees apart I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Also one would need a computer such as the megasquirt to control both the mechanical advance. I think you can program the advance you want according to the rpms and vacuum you specify..

So guestimating, about $50 for the DIS system off a junked 3800, about $150 for a megasquirt and you've got yourself a fully programmable distributorless ignition for approximately $200.
+ the option of upgrading to EFI in the future if your so inclined using the same megasquirt comp.

Sorry for the hijack, I had asked about the GM DIS System here before but I don't think many people knew what the heck I was talking about.

wow, that was long..

Dear Luis;

I used a duel coil system in the 'Fifties' which used a cap from a 12 cyl.(fire truck)engine where every other contact was used.

To quote the movies; "take your passion & make it happen."

BTW: Harley Davidson(s) fire every crank rotation where one spark is "waisted" during the exhaust stroke of the other cyl.

Good luck, John M.......

Boy, sure glad MY distributor is not allowed to look at the Bulletin Boards or it would be more confused than I am and then it wouldn't know if it should fire in-phase or out-of-phase and guarranted it would leave me stranded.!!!!

If none of this matters, then just what are the guys at Holley talking about with this gizmo?
Distributor Phasing and Lockout Kit

"Correct distributor phasing is a must to insure maximum ignition performance"

Or the guys at Pertronix?
Flame Thrower HEI Distributors
"A specially designed vacuum lockout mechanism prevents timing adjustments that change rotor phasing, adversely affecting the burn time and efficient fuel combustion"

Or the guys at CarCraft?
Car Craft on HEI rotor Phasing
"When the distributor rotor aligns with the cap terminal)...

...the magnetic pickup’s stationary-and rotating-pole pieces should, likewise, be in exact alignment. If misalignment exists on GM-type distributors . . ."

:rolleyes:

Dear S-49;

Their talking about selling a kit to those who believe in it.

It may be of some use to those with V-8s turning in excess of 8,000 RPM in a highly competitive invironment etc.

Remember the distributor turns half engine speed.

John M........

Thanks for the reply John . . . reassurances are great and perhaps this is only a v-thingy problem . . . but let's look at some facts . . .

OK Lee, I did some measurements this morning on the dizzy I am rebuilding for my '49 fastback and I am not sure just what the 'correct' static alignment should be - especially since there appears to be a considerable fudge factor. This fudge factor has nothing to do with the physics of electricity traveling at the speed of light (which I believe is your contention John).

First lets look into this speed of light thing. In the Ignition Chapter (7) of the '51 printing of "How to HOP UP Chevrolet and GMC engines" (Roger Huntigton and Floyd Clymer) remind us that "There is a basic limitation of the battery-coil ignition system that is working against us too - the fact that the available spark voltage drops off fast as RPM goes up. Here's why: Electric current has "inertia", and we can't just close a circuit and have it start and reach full flow instantaneously. Therefore, when the breaker points close, and start the current flowing from battery to coil, the voltage builds up gradually in the primary winding - as in Fig. 7-2.
"With a given feed pressure of 6 volts from the battery, the time required to build up full primary voltage in the coil is virtually independent of RPM. So we find that as speed increases, the points are closed a shorter and shorter time, and the primary current is being chopped off before it has time to get going. This, of course, reduces the voltage output of the secondary coil to the spark plugs in proportion. Fig 7-3 shows how spark voltage drops with RPM for typical stock car installation."

When Lee first posed this question, my initial reaction was that the alignment distances within the distributor must be to fairly tight tolerances, and that misaglinment would further inhbit the ability of the coil to produce a good spark by further 'chopping off' the path to ground through the rotor tip and cap conductor (which was consistent with what I had read years ago about ignition problems in v-thingies at high RPM). So an as-built defect in phasing from the designer's intention seemed to be a problem worth looking into. Hence my curiousity.

But then I did some measuring over coffee this morning:

Rotor tip width - .322"
Cap conductor face width - .225"
Cap conductor array Circumference - 6.28" (inches of travel for every dizzy revolution)
Distance per degree of Travel - .0174" (dizzy - /360)
Distance per degree of Travel - .009" (crank- /720)

So I took these basic measurements and applied them to the timing specs on the '41 to '49 Chevy standard:

Dwell Angle - 35 degrees
Distance of rotor tip Travel - .611" (during dwell phases)
Maximum Advance (crank) - 39.5 degrees
Maximimum Advance (dizzy) - 19.75 degrees
Length of Travel to max Adv. - .345"
Difference (fudge) - .266" (Dwell travel minus timing adjustment distance)
Free play in alginment - 15.25 degrees

These numbers suggest to me that while there may be a correct 'static' or 'by design' alignment, there is plenty of room for variation without impact on function (~15 degrees, ~.25" arc travel). Look at the basic measurements. In order for the current to flow we need a .322" wide rotor tip to be partially or totally aligned with the .225" cap conductor face within a .611" dwell window.

While the advance curve will alter this alignment a distance greater than the width of the rotor tip (.345" versus .322") the cap conductor face is a .225" wide target - leaving plenty of overlap space for the electricity to pass (which is what Jason pointed out).

So in looking at the alignment within the dizzy on my work bench, it looks like the static setup has the rotor tip and cap conductor only partially overlapping (with the extra space in direction of rotation). This leaves room for the advance curve to not run out of overlap on the other end as the cap conductor moves in the opposite direction of rotation (mechanically or by vacuum).

Lee, have you measured the number of degrees or the distance of travel impacted by this defect in HEI's? Is it bigger than the apparent fudge factor that I have measured today?

Oh and Lee thanks again for posing the question. It caused me to sit down and think about something that I would have probably just taken for granted. Most the tuner mags seem take it for granted that the dizzy delivered by the General is right and simply warn you when messing with 'Vac Advance elimination' or 'Mech Advance lock-out' to make sure you don't alter the phasing. But they never ask if the dizzy was in phase to begin with. And again these articles are all about v-thingies where there are two more cylinders and a much narrower dwell angle . . . (as John has pointed out).

regards,
stock49

DISCLAIMER: I probably don't now what the heck I'm talking about here..

Stock49,

WOW, thats an informative post, but those curves, they're more related to dwell time than rotor cap alignment, aren't they?

The actual problem we'd be addressing with rotor alignment would be that their would be enough time for the coil to completely discharge before the rotor tip and cap conductors were disconnected. Right?

Does anybody know how long it takes a coil to discahrge? I'm inclined to say that a coil tkes the same amount of time to discharge as it does to charge, kind of like a capacitor (man I really gotta review my physics). Be aware I'm not completely sure of this.. Anyways that would mean that the discharge time is the same as the dwell time..

soooo.. The caps conductor faces should provide for the dwell angle plus the advances. I do not know the tolerances the distributor has but I figure that if they are very small, and you have very large amounts of advance you will potentially have some performance loss like Lee says.

However like I said, I do not know these tolerances, heck, I don't know the full advances nor dwell angles of these things.

so stock49, you measured the dizzy, what do yu think? I just reread your post and realized that I think you already addressed the issues I just mentioned, but seeing as I've spent about 6 minutes typing this message I'm going to post it anyways..



So again Lee, repeating stock49's question: how bad is the misalignment in the HEIs?

Gentlemen;

Back to basics:

The HEI distributor has two moving parts. The shaft, which is driven by the camshaft and the housing, which is rotated (in phase)by the person installing it.

It's acessorie(s), the advance mechanicims cause the spark to fire sooner/ahead (out of phase) because fuel burns at the same rate no matter what speed the engine turns. Hence the term BTDC.

"Thats All Folks", end of story!

Yours truly, JM..