OK the saga continues,found out my dizzy fell appart cause some numpty had put an overlong screw for the condensor(ahem,wont do that again)just long enough to clip the top of the posts,shaking them loose.Thats been repaired but not tried,just been told of a new HEIsystem on the market,fits all early sixes,dont think its the langdon one as it has an internal coil,anyone else heard of this??
Mallory makes one ,but not sure if it fits a 235. Also, there's a new marketer of these on EBay, but have no personal history on them.You can make your own from a later HEI if you like. It takes a little machining on your part though.
What year & type of vehicle do you have ??
If It's a 1958 Chevrolet (car/truck) you won't need an HEI unless your in a freezing climate, racing or driving 1,000 miles per week or more.
Also; Any (chevy 6) distrbutor of that era, up to 62 is just fine, as your already 12V.
Good luck.
Pertronix makes an electronic unit that replaces the points in your original dizzy.
You can take a '75 and up HEI from a 250/292 and modify it to work in the older sixes.
A separate oil filled coil will run cooler and last longer that the epoxy ones that are in the cap. Cap mounted epoxy coils can transfer alot of heat into the electronics were you don't want it to be. Not that I've had any problems, but for those running the '75 and up dizzy, you might want to consider changing it to the cap with the separate coil. It's entirely your decision, though. I'm happy with my coil in cap. HEI will always perform better than points and is worth doing based on mine and others experience.
These kits/conversions are popular, but not needed and an extra expense unless your in one of the 3 situations I mentioned.
The HEI was an 'offspring' of (USA) government regualtions from the 1960s which a 1958 vehicle is exempt from.
Higher voltage coils are an upgrade that's quick & easy and a lot less money.
Happy trails.
Go over to Stovebolt.com, new tech tip on how to make your own Mini HEI, cheap too!
The pertronix upgrade and the 40kV coil is the cheapest upgrade, if your original distributor is tight and in good shape.
It uses the same magnetic hall-effect sensor/trigger as the HEI or other magnetic point dizzys, which can handle 50kV.
Installation takes only minutes on an already installed and tuned distributor.
Mallory offers two versions of point-breaker-less ignition - light sensor or magnetic sensor, as a straight drop in for the early 6s. They also come with adjustable advance. No grinding required.
All this has its price, but these units are new and not decades old used and refurbished giving random fitting problems on a case to case basis.
Gentlemen;
A stock 1958 235" engine only requires 10KV to start & run properly in ANY climare. The factory (GM) gave it 15-18KV when it was new. This allowed for slow cranking/low battery voltage and 'push starting' with It's generator (only).
This can be raised to 20KV (twice that required) by adding an 'extra duty' coil.
Raising it beyond that is 'NUTS'.
These (precision made) 50KV distributors are for high compression/V-8 engines in extreme (high RPM) conditions/racing/commercial usage.
His 58 Chevy (engine) will be turning between 2,100 & 3,000 RPM @ 60 MPH depending on which transmission GM put in. That's 1,050-1,500 (disrtibutor) speed.
Keep this up & he'll think we don't know this "over here".......
Thanks Walt, I wasn't aware of the difference.
Another option is
http://www.davessmallbodyheis.com/ Speaking as the moderator,
John, you are consistantly missunderstanding the intent and purpose of what we post here. It isn't about whats good enough, it about whats the best way to do something. Sometimes there's more than one way to do that, and it should all be put on the table.
To each his own...
I'm glad there are many options to choose from and sharing experiences and opinions with more than one guy is what BB boards are all about.
It was a noticable difference going from stock points to Pertronix on my 235.
The 40kV coil also made a difference.
I can now gap the spark plugs to .045 and have a fatter spark than stock, burning fuel more completely.
Now, as always there are some who will not notice any difference - cool - just stick with the points - nothing wrong with that.
I like the stock setup, just not on my daily driver with upgraded intake and exhaust.
If you shop smart, you can get an electronic ignition for as much or less than a stock dizzy and coil.
B;
I guess they don't have 'consumer fraud' laws in Wisconsin.
If I were to tell a customer; "a $300 distributor was 'better' because it had 5 times the HV and he/she needed that, instead of a good (used) one for $50", I could not only be suied, but would go to jail for lying/attempted fraud.
You see; The theoryretical world is far different from, the 'real' one in business.
Let's hope they "see it your way" in the UK.
I know you do Walt & we thank you for it.
It's the whole attitude here lately & the idea that several times the required power is 'better' or an 'upgrade' somehow, which is completely false.
I mean this is 8th grade 'general science' stuff.
The engines compression determins the HV required and the Mfg. always adds a little to that. So to multiply (that) by 4 or 5 is a pointless waste of time/money is all.
Happy trails to all.
I know the Mini HEI cost more than a set of points, but once I got it in, I have never had to touch the thing. I also know that the original one worked just fine. Once I put that thing in, I know that I do not have to worry about it. I do not see anything wrong with putting a part into my car that is capable of performing better than a stock one. Perfect example would be the bear claw latches I am going to install. Yes, the stock ones worked fine for 52 years, but now they are falling apart and a modern, more secure latch is available. Why would I not upgrade. I am young, but was not the original intention of hot rodding to get a car cheap, and throw the hop-up parts in to make it perform better than stock. Most of the aftermarket stuff out today is unnecessary on street driven cars, but I would bet that almost every one has something like that in their car. I believe that stock is just fine, but using modern science and improved parts can never hurt.
My thoughts on high voltage is that if you buy cheap plugs and gap them at .035 it might be a waste of money. On the other hand if you run a high voltage system that continues to fire through twenty degrees rotation (MSD) and you open the plug gap to .060/.080 you will see a difference. The major reason for going to electronic ignition over points is that you don't need to replace or adjust them frequently to keep the performance up. You buy a new car today and drive it 100,000 miles with out changing the plugs with no loss of mileage or performance. In the good old days I would have got less mileage, less performance and spent a lot more on tune ups than we do today. Many things on a modern automobile may be a waste of time but a strong dependable ignition is not one of them. I agree with what john says about the mfg using what is required, and now they have discovered that higher voltage with a wider gap on the plugs works better. That is why a modern stock GM engine has enough voltage to knock your heart out of rhythm. GM says to test for spark place a 4" chunk of vacuum hose over the plug end and then place the wire over the other operate the starter yourself and if all is right you will hear the spark jump the gap. I would also agree that if you are never going to rev over 2000 and you don't care about mileage or emissions and you love to set your dwell then stay with a point system.
John in answer to your thoughts on being sued, I guess the McDonalds hot coffee thing proved that anyone can get sued. But if you explained your thoughts as to why the new distributor was better and also offered the option of the cheaper stock unit, this would be letting the customer have a choice and you would not be commiting fraud. you would be offering the customer a chance to save money over the long run. Down side this would cut your repair shops profits down because the car would not need tuned up as often.
I wonder if you could be sued for not offering the option of a better system to your customer.
And the answer is YES: you can be sued for not offering a better system to your customer. In the medical "industry" its called standard of care.
Bill;
It's NOT 'better' for an engine with 7-1 compression, where the distributer turns 2,000 RPM or less, only more money. You (may) get suied/arrested because you sold them something they didn't need, breaking Consumer fraud laws.
It's $70 for the kit + $40 for the coil if one wants an "electronic" ignition system (extra HV) to avoid the point adjustment etc.
Your right on the "sueing issue". You can 'sue' anyone for anything, anytime-anywhere. But; winning/collecting is another matter and the main reason our Courts are backloged.
As Walt points out; If you WANT a $300 racing igniton for your Hot Rod someone WILL sell you one, because you WANT it, not because you need it. Big difference.
John
The longer and hotter spark you have the more complete the combustion will be. As far as 7-1 compression ratio I believe most of the sixes being built today that the owner would consider a hot ignition for will have a higher compression ratio. I agree that if you are building a 216 with splash oiling you are fine with a stock ignition, if you are building a 250/292 with higher compression then a modern high voltage ignition is better. You talk about things you tried back 25 or 30 years ago but have you built and drove a modern engine with a complete MSD ignition and plugs gapped at .080? The improvments in high performance ignitions in the last few years is almost beyond compare. I my case my inline is built for touring on any type of road in the country at any speed I wish to drive. I hope when my wife retires in a couple of years to travel the entire country and visit with some of the people I have only typed at. With that thought in mind I am striving toward a six that performs like an V8 and will still get a 25+ MPG average with the A/C on. I'm almost there and with the changes I've made this winter I hope to be there this summer. I agree also that if you are only driving your vehicle 20 or 30 miles a week on low speed roads you don't need to modify anything on the vehicle, unless you want to make it a safer better performing vehicle and if that is the case spend what you can afford to build the car/truck of your dreams.
B;
Yes It's better for a 'built' 250/292 engine with higher compresson and engine speeds. No doubt about it/that.
The question was about a stock 1958 235" engine. In that that engine's combustion chamber, a higher voltage isn't going to change a thing with that compression pressure.
The spark is going to 'jump' the gap when the voltage reaches/gains the ability to travel through the (PSI) weather the (max) is 18KV or 50. In this case, it will jump at around 10+/- which is 8KV less that the factory provided.
If you put a ($300) 50KV unit in there the law (ohms) is still the same. It will jump around the same (10K) voltage +/- because of the low pressure. Having it precision made is of no benefit at 2,000 RPM either.
Higher (compression) pressures/speeds require more electrical power. Same as the alternater, W/O a higher load/demand a higher current rating is of no value.
Yes john you are right at a narrow plug gap but when a larger gap is used to cause a better burn of existing fuel mixture that is being compressed more voltage is required to jump the gap. Next question has his engine been modified , Head milled, different pistons, aftermarket cam, ect. I never saw an answer to what he was driving or if it was street or race. As I said earlier there are many reasons to go to a better ignition. Ignition being everything from the distributor to the spark plugs and the wires that connect the power to it.
B;
It's the added compression pressure that raises the voltage requirement, not the plug gap. That's incidental.
Same as AC raised the power requirements from a charging system.
I'm glad guys who know about ignition in-depth are talking about it.
I've always wondered how engine specs and ignition requirements relate with each other.
For my new 261 with 9.0 compression I am thinking about going with a new mallory point-less electronic ignition, mostly because I don't have the original dizzy.
Cost is not so much a factor, as I am pretty much starting from ground up with the car and engine.
What voltage coil and ignition would be ideal for this engine, if it never goes above 3500 rpm...?
Give Tom Langdon a call, his mini HEI works great & looks like what it came with.
I have heard of fitting and other problems with these and other remanufactured units, like the 250 HEIs.
I'm not sure if Tom sells them with customized mechanical advance.
The Mallories have adjustable mech. advance, without taking it apart.
Since I don't have the original or a NOS dizzy, I rather start with a new manufactured unit, since I will use it for decades daily.
Everything else on the engine is also new or NOS, for the same reason.
John you are saying that it takes the same voltage to jump a .080 gap as it does a .035 gap? If so open your plugs to .080 and see how it runs with stock ignition. You are right that higher compression requires more spark voltage but so does gap. Have you ever run a modern MSD ignition on one of your engines? Does any of your inliners with total stock ignition get 20+ mpg at 70 mph?
RR;
The Mallory (Dist.) is fine if it has a vacuum advance.
The stock 12V with the Mallory coil is okay too and a cheaper way.
Remember 3,500 (engine) = 1,750 distributor speed & the 'fancy stuff' isn't needed till you get to 5,000/2,500 with 10:1 and above.
Bill;
With 7:1 compression YES.
I've pulled plugs with that and more from abused engines for years.
Thanks for the insights.
So, spark strength relates closely to compression and rpm.
The pertronix tech also said more than 40kV and .045 spark gap is of no practical use for the early 6s, without racing mods.
After all, they offer higher voltage ignitors and whole distributors for the later 6s.
Sounds like the mallory would be overkill for my use.
I agree - I switched to pertronix 6 years ago and never looked back.
It is the ONLY electronic ignition system that can be repaired in minutes, if you ever get stranded out in nowheresland.
I have a new set of original style points in my glovebox since installation, but never had to use them.
I would have gone with Mallory's magnetic or optical breaker dizzy.
But there is really 'no point' if I never go past 3500rpm...
Walt;
The (dual point) Mallory must be 'set up' on a "distributor machine" while turning and this may be why there were problems. Normally they only require an adjustment about every 20,000 miles +/-.
The kit to convert is around $70 for a 50s dist.
The (expensive) racing units are for just that, high compression/high RPM use.
I'm not familar with the Petrox unit but many like it etc.
Happy trails.
John
I haven't adjusted a set of dual points for many years, but if I remember right we use to put a paper block in one set of points and set dwell then block the other set and set dwell then check over all dwell after both sets were adjusted. I don't remember what the dwell numbers were for each step, I can't remember if we had to make an allowance or not. This worked when a machine wasn't available. Have you ever done this? Also snap on used to sell a set of phenolic bushings that went over distributor cam then you just held the points closed against it and tightened screws, lifted out the bushing and points were set. Thinking about seting points takes me back about twenty or thirty years.
Dear Bill;
Yes; that's the way it was done on the machine.
Usually I/we just used a 'feeler gauge' as "dwell" meters were only owned by "the rich and famous" 1n 1955.
Later (the 60s) I had friends that owned one and I finally got my own (dist mach) in 1968.
Have a digital portable (hand held) one today.
WOW John I didn't know that I hung out with the rich and famous back then. Had access to a portable unit and now and then got to use an actual machine where you could set dwell, advance curve, everything. Usually reserved that access for race car distributor. Like you I bought my first one in probably 62 or 63 still have it also have a premium unit from mac tools that I bought later the only thing that they have been used for in years is carb adjustment and not very much for that. Two years ago a guy had an auction and sold all of the old stuff he had traded in and never resold. He had four distributor machines in operating condition but I had a previous commitment and couldn't go figured they would bring to much money anyway. To make a long story short very few people showed up and one guy bought all four machines for ten dollars. But if I would have went they probably would have sold for mega bucks. I guess I didn't need one anyway.
Hey;
They'd still be cluttering up your Garage & never used. Dual points are rarely in service these days. :rolleyes:
I quoted a guy $4,300 for a 'killer' 278 last month. After he left to "think about it" I looked up a 383 CID & it was $3,800.
Not much point any more.
Happy trails
Hmmm! Thanks for all that some (most)went clear over my head.all I want to know is anyone seen this 'new'hei set up?I've had enough of points creeping,condensers giving up after a few months,its not that easy getting the spares over here,for me the nearist is a 2 hour drive away,and postal rates are stupid, & if you get the right thing your lucky,so I want to modernise for reliability,ever tried resetting the points at the side of a highway with trucks missing your backside at 70 mph,the trucks not your backside..I've tried email langdons. no response....which is another whinge for another place.
Have Patrick's make something for you.
There are many ways to go here and there in our 'vendors' section. Or try patricks@aol.com
A 'truck' distributor will fit & rarely has trouble.
Good luck.
Wow,
Alot of ideas hear. Personally, The best changes I made, aside from performance, was new parts, carb (390 Holley), hydraulic lifters, and HEI (this was used, but still runs good). Anything that can make a vehicle run better or reduce maintenance, IS AWSOME. Did I mention performance? If you can get both, DOUBLE AWSOME.
. Even if it is minute.
Walt,
Are you sure about the HEI distributor cap thing? I was going to add an MSD 6 unit and I was going make mods to keep the stock in the cap coil. But after reading about the heat thing, maybe it would be better to add a seperate coil. I like the in cap coil and there are upgrades.
Any comments?
Thanks
Luis
Got a good dizzy off a 60 auto,so i'm gonna hang fire on the moddern stuff till I've seen one or got some reports,thanks for the input
when they use a modern hei in a 235 all they do is relocate the mounting flange by grinding it off and purchasing a split lock collar at your local bearing supplier. after that refab your hold down bracket and away you go. of course you will need 12vdc to power it. compare the two dizzy's side by side and see. and those webers they put on are from ford 2300's a pinto! sure pays to be a scrounge. check it out.
I always wonder when talking about electronic ignition it comes down to HEI or Pertronix.
This isnīt e-ignition its only e-points.
The Thyristor ignition box on my 41 Sedan does other things.
Operates from 4,0 up to 18 volts.
Always the same spark power in the whole voltage range (at 4,0 volts too).
No decrease of the ignition power up to the highest rpm with the normal ignition coil.
30% higher ignition power at 70 F
Increasing ignition power at decreasing temperature; 100% more that m 32 F
Best start conditions in winter.
No current flow through the coil, when ignition is switched on, the breaker point is closed and the engine is not running.
Automatic adaption of the spark voltage to the gap.
Best ignition spark: DC spark with a duration of .5 to 1.5 ms; no AC spark with all its disadvantages. points much more than 100 000 Km (70 000 miles), no contact eroding.
No adjusting of the dwell necessary, the opening of the breaker point controls the whole igniting procedure.
Build-in indicator lamp, usable for testing contact circuitry and to adjust and test the trigger point of ignition.
Everything stays stock you only rout the coil wires throu the box.
Thatīs what I call an improofment not only getting rid of the points.
I keep my points stock and they last almost for ever becaus only minimal current is used as they only act as a trigger for the box. Donīt ever have to care about dwell ether. If the box fails I go back to stock in seconds.
I made a simple switch to switch betwen stock and the box while idle or drive. And you can tell that it makes a big difference.
Frank
Hi C-Dan-D-Luxe - tell me more about the Thyristor: Where do you get it? cost? Briefly how it does what it does. Change plugs? Any other mods necessary to use it?
The guy who developed it is a retired Porsche
ingnition engineer.
Every single box and most of the interia and parts is handmade. Check out the pics:
http://www.ahldorf.com/Zuendung/Siriusbilder/siriusbilder.html You have to send him a mail with your engine specs (zylinders/6V or 12V/max rpm) and he will taylor a box for you.
The last box I bought was about 230 Euros.
Keep EVERYTHING stock incl. the plugs.
here is a connection diagram:
http://www.ahldorf.com/Zuendung/Ignition/ESIRIUS/Install/Circuitry/circuitry.html CAUTION! Donīt judge him by his website design or the music(!) this site is playing.
Heīs a well known and respected ignition wizzard over here but he is not known for good taste. :rolleyes:
here is his website with a load of information:
http://www.ahldorf.com/Zuendung/Ignition/ignition.html
Ich habe fast kein deutsch seit '74 gesprochen. Es wird sehr interessant (his website) fur mich. Muss man mit Euros bezahlen?
Vielen Dank.
I already picked the english version of the website (only the side with the pics is in germany).
With Western Union money order or maybe Paypal there should be no problem with currencys.
Where you in the service over here?
Frank
P.S. Dein Deutsch klingt doch noch sehr gut
Thanks, Ich habe in Osterreich (no umlaut - sorry) studiert im Austauschprogram. Es war von August '73 bis Juni '74. Ich habe Deutsch noch sehr gern, aber nich so viel sprechen. Bist du (Is that OK to say or should it be Sind Sie?) Deutscher?
I have not been to the website - is it auf Englisch too oder nur auf Deutsch?
Is it a simple conversion to do this distributor?
As you can see from my location tag I live in Augsburg Germany and yes, Iīm German.
The side is in english (exept the one with the "making of")
All you have to do is hook up 4 wires.
Follow the links and you will see.
Frank
Sadly the guy retired completley and stoped making those ignitions.
I still have the points in my 56 belair with original 265. I have a spare set in the back corner of the glovebox, along with a book of matches to set them with. The thing is, they only go bad when it's raining, at about 10:30 at night, on sunday, when I'm wearing a new white shirt. I've had a pertronix in my mustang for 7 years, no issues whatsoever. My "new" 56 has a pertronix. I can wear white shirts again!
Gentlemen;
The (stock) 12V system is just fine if serviced/instaled properly.
The 'electronic systems' don't pay for themselves unless you drive 30,000 miles a year or more.
Happy trails.
Wow, I'm a simple guy and like things kept simple if they can be. I've read all this post and was able to follow some and at times was lost. I do know I used Patricks dual point Mallory. It ate condensers. Had nothing but trouble. I then put in Langdons HEI. I love it and so does my 54, 235. That works for me!
Dominic
W;
Yes; Dual points are a 'pain' W/O a "distributor machine" and seldom used like I stated.
Points rarely need adjustment/service if put in right to start off. They worked just fine from 1937 till the EPA forced the other system on us, around 1975.
Newer is NOT always better.
The HEI systems are expensive and unessary for lower compression engines. There fine for:
1) Commercial vehicles (high driven miles).
2) Operating in 'freezing' climates.
3) High RPM operations (racing).
4) Required for SMOG.
52HT;
The "electronic conversions" arn't as expensive and work well too, many like them because; there's rarely/never an internal adjustment required, just set the timing.
Glad your happy with yours.
It's the age old question; "which is better, belts or suspenders"??
Happy trails.
PS: I (generaly)don't make conversions of ANY kind. If you buy a 52 Chevrolet from me, It's a 1952.
W;
Your right; there many ways to go 'nowdays' and the price has come down too.
My 'beef' is this; they were a big pain from day one, on ALL vehicles. Mechanics were killed when they put out over 100,000 volts via malfunctions. Plus the government forcing that stuff down our throats and into the public's bankbook. Plus the costs to the "big 3" in Detroit.
It was all just a big mess, that was NEVER-EVER needed, in the first place etc...
It's been 30+ years and their perfected now, but at what a cost, to the Auto Mfg., repair industry and the public/consumers.
FUBAR
The new guys comming "on board" today, don't know any of this & just see them as simpler way.
The 12V breaker system makes ALL the HV needed for a simple (low compression) engine. There easy to teach beginning students. They can be made to work (in minutes/no parts) by the (ERS/Tow Truck) folks, avoiding the tow to a repair shop, saving time/money for the consumer.
Happy trails to all.
Greetings . . .
Leaving the debate aside - thyristor based electronic ignition technology is available commercially - and as C-Dan points out it looks like a simple conversion that can be rewired back to stock in a pinch:
Quasar Electronics Not sure if this particular unit will work on a Six. I would think the addition of 2 more cylinders will bring the quoted max RPM rating down.
regards,
stock49
K;
I think this is a "modern" version of the "capacity discharge" system, that was sold as an accessory in the 60s.
These did work well & many liked them. Then they disappeared??
Happy trails.
W;
There's no replacement parts for those 'aftermarket' things. You run em till they quit, then they hit the dumpster.
HEI parts are everywhere like you say.
I carry an extra rotor in my 81 van. Sometimes the HV burns through to ground. :p
Happy trails.
PS: The CD Ing. was just an 'acessory gimic' prior to the HEI.
Gentlemen . . .
The post started with 'leaving the debate aside' . . . I was simply trying point those interested in such gizmos to a viable source for a unit and parts - seeing has how the old Porsche mechanic who built C-Dan's unit has decided to hang up his spikes forever . . .
As for me I am a big fan of Walt's tag line "Make your own decision" . . .
for me that's a 6 volt point system. After all it is a stock '49 . . .
As for the debate . . . I think we should review C-Dan's post because he makes some good points (pun intended) . . .
First, a thyristor based ignition goes beyond replacement of the breaker points with a solid state electronic trigger. These units use the stock breaker points as the trigger to a capacitor that runs on as little as a few volts input. This capacitor can provide 30x the voltage of the battery to the primary winding in a stock coil - which means that the secondary coil winding firing the the spark plugs puts out a considerably hotter spark - and the setup doesn't degrade at all over the rated RPM range.
As for the emergency repairs debate - look at the circuit. The gizmo is installed in series on both sides of the coil. If it fails one can re-wire the gizmo out of the circuit and drive away on a stock points ignition - with no visit to a parts store.
Not my cup of tea - but I understand why some would choose the setup . . .
regards,
stock49
Still have three NOS "dual point Mallory distributors" on my shelf in the boxes. Own my on distributor machine and have for ever but hope like heck I don't have to ever uncover it. Neat old stuff to think about or display but you can stop at any convenience auto parts store in the country and buy an HEI module dirt cheap; if you don't already have one in the glovebox. I build my own HEIs from scrap ones for about 25 or 30 dollars with new cap etc,have the entire rear section of an 85 Chevy suburban full of points and caps NOS Delco. If I am going to drive it myself it will have an HEI in it.
When I put one in a newly purchased 1937 Chevrolet (stock 216 split exhaust only)a few years back; before I drove it home; its owner for the past thirty years would not believe the difference in idle and starting. He had rebuilt distributor and carb and said I was wasting my time and money! He shortly there after put a HEI in his Chevy powerd 37 Ford and never looked back!