I saw a thread on Stovebolt about E85 as fuel. The general tone of the replies seemed to be negative. I agree E85 is not a direct replacement for gas. Older vehicles need larger jets, and some components in the fuel system need to be made alcohol resistant. The mileage in a standard engine is not good. E85 has an octane rating of 107. E85 also produces less emissions. If an engine was built for E85, say a compression ratio of 10-12, would gas mileage be the same???
Last time we bought alcohol for the dragster it was $2.25 a gal.

Larry

hay larry we have just run some tests here in australia on some CAT 789, 793, dump trucks . i had a chance to talk with the cheif chemist about the pro's and con's of mixing ethanol with diesel. the mining company's are trying the mix purely for emissions and to look politicaly correct!! the chemist has done research on petrol {gas your country} engines as well and while they do burn cleaner i dont think they were any better on economy , another thing was once you run one a blended fuel you should stay on it as the gaskets swell a little more with the water content in the blended fuel if you switch back they shrink back causing leaks. i take it your E85 fuel is 15 percent ethanol 85 gasoline??? was dragster you bought alcohol for a inline deal??

First E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gas. I wasn't aware that you mix alcohol and diesel. My thought is unless you build your engine for alcohol your going to loose economy.
The dragster was a sbc, but there wasn't anything made by GM. We ran Good Guys Nostalgia drags, Jr Fuel.

Larry

This like solar technology here, has been subverted by the Feds.

The 2 main ingredents of alcohol are grain which we have plenty and sugar which the soft drink companies throw away millions of gallons of after their drinks are made each year.

Here's the hitch; they (grain/sugar) must be distilled to make a burnable liquid. Enter the ATF that blocks every attempt to do this everywhere in the US.

Alcohol as a second fuel can be used in about of 30% of our country (perhaps more) but this R&D isn't allowed.

The electric car was developed by Chysler & General Electric decades ago with a range of 300 miles. A great second car but R&D on the battery technolgy is stalled by EPA for possible environmental risks.

These are the same folks that require "smog devices" that cause your vehicle to use more fuel to clean the air.

Go figuer????

Hi,
I'm not sure "negative" should be the tone for E-85. It is just different. We are so used to conventional gasoline and its effects, that we see anything different as "bad".

There are several local ethanol plants that make hundreds of millions of gallons annually. E-85 has some advantages and some disadvantages. Fuel economy will go down about 20%. But the octane rating is very high. It doesnt pollute the atmosphere, but your crankcase will really notice a difference. Synthetic oil is recommeded, and oil changes should be about 7500 miles. Jetting might change a bit, but not much. Compression isnt much of a factor either - a mildly hopped up 6 is fine. Older carbs do not like it much, but modern computer controlled engines can use it at about 50% or 60% blend with no problem if it is done gradually. the oxygen sensors have to get little doses at a time until the recognize the alcohol as "OK". John is right - don't even get started with the politics of the stuff.
In short E-85 will work fine in a 235, but there are some changes you have to concede. And it might not be any more economical by the time you factor the service and the mileage. I'm still going to do it in my '56 this summer

I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that as far as destruction of gaskets are concerned on early engines such as my 235 that I should not have a problem because the gaskets are cork except for valve and rear crank seals,and not a synthetic. However, your mentioning of requiring the use of synthetic oil, I wonder if that's really good for older engines.When you or anybody else runs E85, I'd like to read about the results.

Reading through this got me to thinking. If E85 drops mileage by 20% then in order to break even the price would need to be less than a comparable amount of gasoline or the buyer wouldn't see any reduction in fuel costs. Emissions and petroleum shortages are secondary reasons to the average motorist who right now is paying dearly just to be able to go back and forth to work. At a 20% reduction in miles per gallon E85 would take 5 qts being sold for the same amount as 4 qts of gasoline to be equal in price. I guess what this is what I said in the beginning: the price would have to be LESS than gas. Anyone see that happening in the remote future? R&D costs, new equipment to handle the product distribution, and all of that will simply be passed on in a price per gallon at the retail level. Until all start up costs are amortized and E85 becomes the sole fuel in demand it will just cost more per gallon all the way around.

Just my opinon on the matter but see what happens when I start thinking?

I'm changing to E-85 in my 2001 Toyota Tundra right now. I add a gallon of E-85 to the first tank and increase it 1 gallon each time I fill. I run the tank until as close to empty as I can get. I'll stop at 50% and try that for a while before I try any further. People around here can only get to about 65% if the vehicles are not true "flex-fuel" vehicles. My dad is doing it with his 97 cad that needs premium.
I'll let you know how it goes in my 56. What the hell, at least it will be neat conversation
Regarding synthetic oil, manufacturers who produce E-85 recommend synthetic oil because they handle the corrosive and dirt by products of cumbustion better.

Mike G - you hit the nail on the head. That is the politics of it all, and it is ridiculous. here are some things to think about. Maybe not politically correct, but truth non-the-less. I'd like to ask the government about E-85. Corn is subsidized so the taxpayer "owns" a significant portion of it. By and large the ethanol plants are subsidized. We all know about the oil industry. E-85 is way overpriced. for what the public has already paid, it should be $1 per gallon in my opinion. then there would be incentive to use it. The way the system is now set up, e-85 can only work because of the good hearts of those buying it or the continual welfare mentality of those in the industry - who is in bed with whom? I am afraid by the time it is all settled, E-85 will be priced 15-20% less than conventional gasoline, so it will result in no net savings to anyone, and somewhere, there will be windfall profits . any guess who that will be?

With the higher octang & running a higher compression One would think You would not lose as much MPGs Because of the performance gain Between the two.

Gentlemen;

The 'politics' of all this is massave to say the least & has since the end of WWII when the USA started importing oil from Saudi Arabia & the 'mid east'.

The "washington wisdom" then was to use theirs & save ours for future use etc. Also it is much easier to get the oil (out of ground) there than here.

In 3 years or less we (Americans) could stop using their oil all together, going to natural gas, electric, alcohol et al; keeping the monies involved here.

The BIG problem is the rest of the world cannot.

I think; Because much of their technology comes from us the Feds. surpess everything in this area.

A 'battle' is looming however; as the EPA & DOE are at oposite ends of it all.

John, How do you see it all working itself out? $5 gas? $2 domestic gas? E-85? Electric?

Despite it's octane number it's my limited understanding that E85 is not mixed as a power fuel like a racing fuel would be and so you could only increase performance with higher compression using E85.

Drew not quite right on the first post, cork does not get along with alcohol (ethanol or methanol) according to this web site

http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id26.html

it also specifies that some plastics like polyurthane. They also suggest giving your fuel system components a bath in alcohol and see which ones come out, well that's one method. I wonder if they make alcohol approved carb kits, just a thought.

Jet size and compression is a factor. Jets need to be enlarged by 27% for pure alcohol, ok start with less and work up. Compression this the one I'm wondering about. The octane figures for e85 range from 100 to 107. Does any one know or have any experience on what increases mileage might be gained from upping the compression? I'll even settle for guesses. What compression ratio can I run on with the current premium gas?
The Jr Fuel dragsters are required to run straight methanol and are regularly checked to make sure they are. Our dragster ran 14:1 compression. Our best time was 7.13, 186 mph in the quarter. Power fuel?
btw I cc'd my 292 head and now know why the 194 head is desireable.

Gas mileage and price is a factor. Thank you John for your input, it got me to thinking. Here is a link on how to make your own ethanol and get around the ATF.
http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id36.html

An article in "Rod & Custom" or one of the truck mags made me aware that e85 even existed. There are 95 production stations, and 2400 gas station dispensing it in the midwest. It's not available in CA yet (except one station south of San Diego) because CARB has not approved a nozzle to dispense it yet???? Alcohol is a product of the Agriculral Industry and is distributed by the Petroleum Industry. When you go to a gas station, who put the prices on the pumps. What don't I understand.

Another thing that prompted me to start this topic is I have a local source that will mix e85 for me. Friday afternoon I'll see if I can get a price.

Perhaps some one could post the prices in their area.

Larry
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. - Benjamin Franklin

Well; Ben Franklyn was 'right on' there, wasn't he??

Solar technology will power most houses (it can now) and the price of all fuels will drop as the electric car (battery)is developed.

What's keeping it all FUBAR, is that the Feds. can't afford to lose the fuel tax that this mess provides them. Every time oil moves, It's taxed. We (the consumer) only see the pump tax(s). Probably a dollar of the $3.00+ goes to the US Gov. (overall). The Clinton's were a big part of it by not letting any refinerys be built.

Where would they be W/O that money?? They can barely ballance things with it.

For a slap in the face, research how many refineries we had 30 years ago and how many have been shut down since 1995. Don't get caught up in jackasses and olifonts. It's all about the oil companies and who they own.

Larry G,
Thanks for clearing that info up for me on cork gaskets. Very interesting articles you included too.We have a local plastics plant that was closed and it's now being pushed by our local county and state representatives to turn it into an ethanol plant.We still have lots of corn farmers in South Jersey and could use the employment, but from what you all say about regs, it may never happen.

Dear Armond;

ANY private business operates based on what the law allows it to do & how it operates.

Since WWII the Feds. have consistantly made it more profitable for them (Oil Co.) to do business with OPEC rather than R & D here. This is a multi faceted legal configuration covering their total operation(s).

Your right we've needed more refinery(s) for more than 20 years. But when several bills were in Congress to resolve this shortage the Clinton Administration in league with environmental extreamists blocked them all.

This is not to say that the "Bill & HIll gang" are to blame for it all.

Gentlemen, The number of refineries, the amount of R&D, or Alasken oil is not going to stop the price of gas from climbing. Two thirds of the worlds oil reserves are in the middle east (OPEC), 3% are in Alaska, the United States consumes half of the worlds production of oil. China has the largiest population and one of the fastiest growing ecomonies there is. China is buying cars and using oil. GM is going to manufacture cars in China. They are not going to be riding bicycles much longer.

I googled "ethanol" It appears that the price of ethanol has followed the price of gas. Two years ago the price of ethanol was 1.40 a gal, now it's 2.75. Archer Daniels Midland is big on ethanol they have 2-3 plants being built to produce more. They intend to produce 1.5 billion gallons. My 2 cents for the day.

Larry

Mr. Griffin is correct.

The main thing is that; We became MORE dependant by NOT keeping up (through R & D) here for our own needs as our population increased.

Technology is a great tool that we (USA) possses. To not use it is very foolish and makes us more vunerable when China's technology reaches our level.

Another "Bill & Hill" legacy.

The drilling & refinery issues were here before.

The 'ethanol issue' has been on the table for Three decades as well. It will help, but may be to little to late. Only time will tell.

Larry,
I paid $2.84/gal for 10% ethanol and $2.34 for E85 today
We have a few more plants that are being built to produce E85 in eastern South Dakota. They should be able to produce about 350 million gallons per year. I am not sure what the current plants produce, but it has to be in the 350M gallon range right now. So, it looks like e85 is a player in the future

I agree E85 will be a player, but there is a lot to be sorted out yet. The market place will sort it out, but with an 18% difference and perhaps a 20% loss in mileage it will take a while.

Here is another web site dealing ethanol. I can't say there is anything significant about it, but you find current and future production figures.

http://www.ethanol.org/

I wish there was a flat top piston available for the 292 without going forged.

Larry

Another thought;

Let's 'geneticaly engineer' sugar cane to grow in the mid west (USA)!!

Cane + Grain=E-85

Go Acher Daniels Midland.....and the American farmer.

Greetings . . .

Right now I think the formula is:

Cain + Grain + Coal = E85

Until the processes used to distill biomass into ethanol take greater advantage of the carbon in the biomass - we're simply trading a coal fired smoke stack producing electricity (that is in turn used in the distallation process) for a gallon of grain alcohol.

Granted this would elminate dependence on foreign oil sources - but do we really want to burn any more coal then we already burn?

The other troublesome problem with ethanol is the BTU rating of the stuff. A gallon of ethanol is like 2/3 of a gallon of regular gas. So if gas is going for $3 and ethanol is going for $2 it is a wash to the consumer. But even with 'parity' of price it's less convenient. If 20 gallons of gas takes their car 400 miles - 20 gallons of ethanol will take them only 266 miles. They may do 10-15% better than this - if the flex fuel system runs correctly and leans out the mixture - and the driver's foot isn't to heavy (cause the car just isn't as peppy as it was on pure gas). But ultimately you really need a higher compression ratio engine to take best advantage of ethanol - but then you don't have flexible fuel engine.

I think E85 will be a player in the market - but I don't see it as the final solution to our problems . We simply demand way more energy then we can produce domestically.

For me the most important thing we can do in America is agree on a single standard for fuels across the county. This will eliminate spot shortages for specific formulations and eliminate some of the volatility in price that we currently experience. Why do we need 5 different specifications for fuel in this country? It's more when you consider summer versus winter formulations in some markets.

regards,
stock49

Biomass Ethanol
Gas is Gas?
Ethanol the answer?

There is a fellow in Clearwater that has developed a HHO gas engine. 100 mile trip he used 4 ounces. Is presently building an engine for the military. And is working with one of the big three. Looks pretty good to me.


John

I don't think ethanol works as well in the cold climate as it does elsewhere. Gas needs to be different due to changes in altitude, temperature, humidity and the terrain.

The hydrogene engine has been around too. The concern here is the "explosion factor" in a traffic collision and the transportation & storage of it nationwide.

When solar replaces the energy now used to light our homes, what is now used will go toward transportation needs.

Here is where we can expect the most resistance from government. They are making a major effort to monitor all solar power units.

For right now gas is; "the biggest bang for the buck".... :p

Answer is to send the E85 junk to China.

I love it!!!.

GM could design them to take a 'specialized' fuel cell (made in USA) only.

As they (China cars) need refueling they simply send us back their empty cells for refill.

Ah Ha; We were all looking at this from the "rong" perspective.

Thank you Mr. Ryan!

Very interesting stuff.

So us older car people are S.O.L.,unless someone comes out with a carb kit that is combatible with the alcohol?

I think Mr Ryan & Mr Meredith have a good idea,send it over seas.

vince

Brilliant!! A chicken finger in every wok and an E85 vehicle in every pagoda.

Hey John; This is not a hydrogene motor as we know. Completely different. I found it very interesting. Was originally designed to take the place of acetalyne when using a torch. I'll send you the video from channel 24 in clearwater if you want. This uses only water and electricity.
Cheers!!!

Do you think that the cam companies will be coming out with E85 cams in the future.

vince

Sure, send the video. NTSC VHS

I think the RV cams we have now will work with a different 'chip' for the computer controlled EFI folks.

A little off topic.
I was reading yesterdays paper and there was a story about a local guy that modified a Toyota Prius to "plug-in" and claims 100 mpg. There is meeting with the CEOs of the Big 3 and Leaders of Congress on Thursday and he plans on showing his car.
Here is the part I find funny he flew the car to Washington on Monday instead of driving it there.

Anyways here is his site, calcars.org

vince

So it would appear that he has a 100mpg trailer queen. I hope he doesn't ramble on about durability and dependability.

That's no "trailer queen," but maybe a "fly-by-night operation." We may may wonder whether it flew "economy class." Perhaps they had to fly it because it wouldn't get there on time at 25 mph.

God's Peace to you.

d
Inliner #1450

Can't say this topic has gone in the direction I had intended, probably my fault. The respnses are very similar to the resonses I saw on Stovebolt, though a few additional "Alternative" fuel systems have been mentioned. Let's see if I can redirect a bit. :rolleyes:

Evidently Ethanol is here to stay whether you like it or not. The local paper says there is going to be an Ethanol plant built about 20 miles away. The company that is building that plant is planning 5 more in California. I've also read reports that the IRL is switching to Ethanol. GM is pressuring NASCAR to switch to Ethanol. It might be interesting to see what happens with NASCAR. Since NASCAR already has a contract with Sunoco for fuel , but then they are also considering a new engine spec.

There was a time when Hot Rodders couldn't get enough Octane. There were arguements as to whether one oil companies 101 octane was as good as the other oil companies 103 octane. Now that there is a fuel out there that is 105 plus, no body sems thrilled. I've even seen 113 octane cliamed, but I'm thinking that must be straight ethanol. Any how I've been wanting to build an engine for alcohol, soo... I've got a 292 on the engine stand, I want to build for the street.

With E85 you are going to loose gas mileage. There just isn't as much energy in E85 as gas. You need to increase the jet size by about 27%. A cam isn't going to change the air fuel ratio. The only thing that will take advantage of E85 is the compression ratio. I'm thinking I want to go 11-12 to one on compression. It doesn't look like I can get there with out a 194 head or forged pistons. I don't wan t to buy forged pistons for the street. A good set of cast flat top pistons would be perfect. With the right pistons I could use one of the 3 heads I've got now. At what compression ratio do I need to think about using studs in place of the head bolts? Is it also true that one of the front threaded holes has a tendency to crack? That will do for now.

Larry

Morning Larry, you're right, the world is changing and we must change with it or go the way of the dinosaurs. I'll be over working on Leo's Stude again Monday and will run this by him. My first thought is the 194 head shrouds the valves if you try to increase their size. So it could only be cammed for torque and low RPM. Which could go toward the mileage factor quite nicely. Because of this, studs may not be necessary but anything that makes an engine stronger, can't be bad. Like any engine build, first you must decide how it will be used, then built to do it (one must be realistic). Bummer we can't get gas with this octane rating, if you build an engine for E85, it will be very unhappy with anything less. Maybe we can keep this thread a little more on the tech side.

Sorry about that Larry.

So you are building a E85 motor?Thats cool.

Do you have to enrichen all circuits of the carb or just the main jets?

vince

The 194 can be Used if You unshroud The Valves.Even useing one of the other heads You should unshroud the valves with them as well. If your going to run a 1.94 valve On another Note Yu can go with the 1.8 smb 305 valve Which will work well in both heads and You wouldn't have to unshroud it as much. And in my 2cent oppion The 194 head would be better Because you would have to mill nearly as much Off it ,To Keep the higher compression. Then if you would use one of the other heads.Plus you would have a Thicker Head Face Because Your Not Milling as much off.
As for useing studs 11-1 and Up. BUT I have found out that The 351 Ford head bolts That have the Built in washer face Will hold 11.5,12-1 with out a problem. But the Driverside Over the water Pump Needs to be cut down So that it doesn't hit the water pump impeller. Been there HAD them in for 3yrs.Never once Blew a head gasket.

You could???? always O ring the Block. If you wanted to. But a better muct do if 12-1 OR Higher for long turm Holding power/sealing But still has been known to still blow a gasket when Racing after so many Passes.

Armond, II, Thanks for reminding to dust off Leo's book. Leo's says after 10.5 use studs. I think I like Twisteds' 351 head bolts. Though I don't think I'll need to cut one down. I have a little more stroke.

G10-250, One of the web sites mentions having to modify the circuits. I'll handle the problems as they come up. I've got enough spare parts and tools to handle most of it. I intend to go through a series of carbs. There have been a lot of unanswered questions concerning mileage.

Twisted6, Thanks for the head bolt suggestion. I don't think I'll use the 194 head. The more I think about it I'll go with a flat top piston and since you mention head thickness maybe a dome, I need to run the numbers. The 194 would back me into a corner. I'd rather change the head and compression. The pistons will delay things a bit. Which is not all bad rereading Leos' book I realize I've jumped the gun a bit.

Larry

E85 seems to be a hot topic on the web right now.

Sounds like a fun project,what are putting it in?

vince

Ops sorry about that I forgot your going to use the 292. So yeah you do have more meat up top over the water pump.The 194 on the 292 with a flat top will get you the compression your after very easy if not to Much. You can also go with a dished piston Or dish the flat top to get the compression that your after. The Flat top Or dished piston will give you a better burn trans. flame front to the other side of the bore Over the Pop-up, But you can also fire slot the dome to help get the flame front to the Other side of the bore.
Just a little more food for thought here.

G10-250, The motor will be going in my 63 C20. I'm not sure what I'll be using it for. It has had my camper on it.

Twisted6, I figured you had 250 burned on the brain, particularly with the new motor. The 194 would be too much right now. The flat top piston looks good from the numbers. On your web site there is a picture of a combustion chamber in the lump port section. Has that chamber been worked on? What about dishing the flat section of the head opposite the sparkplug?

Larry

Are you talking about the photo showing the Bolt for the Lump?? If so It has 194 valves That have Not been unshrouded.
No you DO NOT want to dish that area. that is what is known as the Quench area This is where Your compression comes into play the Most. Also That Area Is not as think as one may think.
If you Look at photo #6 You can see what Happened to the head when it ws MILLEd to thin and OVER Heated.

That's the photo and my question is answered.

Larry

Ok cool & your Welcome.

Sweet ride.
Is there many stations out in the valley that sell E85? I don't think I've seen any here in the bay area yet.

vince

You may have seen the truck, white with big cabover on running around the west side. I was in San Jose most of my life till about 2 years ago and I said enough.

At the present time there is only one gas station selling E85 in California and it is south of San Diego. CARB has not approved the nozzle to pump it with yet. I will be buying E85 from the same company that sells to the IRL.

Larry

I do remember seeing that style with a camper,does it have blue stripes on the camper?

I can see it now "honey I'm going to the gas station,see you in two days" LOL.

IRL= Indy Racing League?

So you are buying it by the barrel?

I like the way your thinking this through,when its available locally you will have all the bugs worked out.

vince

No blue stripe, there was once a polished aluminum panel down the sides above the bed.

"two days" with the side tanks may be a week.

You got it, besides the IRL they supply fuel to several other circuits.

A barrel is 3 gal.s short of filling all the tanks.

It's a little more than working the bugs out. I'm not sure why, but I've always wanted to run alcohol. Maybe it was my Dad telling me they ran Alcohol and water in the Corsairs in WWII. I want to document the changes mpg, torque, as I tinker.

Larry

I guess it wasn't you I was thinking of.

3 gals short of a full tank,sounds like the story of my life.lol

Were they burning alcohol & injecting water?

Here is something I've been wondering,what kind of engine oil do you need to run when running alcohol? Is there an oil out that will keep the corrosion down from fuel dilution? Or do you have to change the oil more often?

Sorry about all the questions, I find this to be an interesting topic.

vince

As the story goes the Corsairs would overheat climbing after a Zero. They would catch the Zero if they didn't overheat first. Evidently there was enough room in the cockpit that the Navy Aircraft mechanics could put a barrel of Alcohol and water behind the seat. How they actually turned it on I'm not sure, a valve(?). The end results was that there were fewer Zeros.

Engine oil, I've read that synthetic oil is required. I know that's what we used in the dragster running Methanol, but then that's extreme duty. I need to look into that further.

There was an interesting link posted on Stovebolt.com about a 292 rebuild that Truckworld magazine did;

http://www.truckworld.com/How-To-Tech/Chevrolet-Engine/Chevy-engine-2.html

In the article they talk about using a domed piston from Federal Mogul for running LPG. No picture showing the pistons, d*mn. I called Federal Mogul and talked to some techie, who said they don't exsist. I called Tom Langdon great guy, very knowledgeable. He said he had never run into tem. I want those piston anyone have a part number.

I got more information from Tom Langdon than I had hope for. There are two methods for Octane rating (I may have this wrong), Motor and research. There is a difference of 10 points between the two.

He aslo said that for every 2 points you raise the compression you gain 8% in power and 7% in mpg.. That presents an interesting trade off. The stock compression on the 292 is 8 to 1. With Ethanol you lose mpg. 20% or is it closer to 27% which is what you have to increase your jet size. So if you raise your compression ratio to 12 you gain 16% in power and lose 6-13% in mpg not considering anything else. Something to think about.

Larry

Larry, in reference to what you posted, here is a simplistic explanantion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

So they were using an alcohol & water mix to keep from overheating.Very interesting.

I remember back in my youth a buddy had a 13:1 motor he ran on the street and he was using an alcohol & water mix to keep it from pinging,it was hooked up to a vacuum line.

I read that motor build a couple of days ago.

I was looking at pistons at the autozone site and they list LPG pistions for the 250. Speed-pro I think.

So by raising the compression 2 points the gain is 8% power. Is the 7% mpg + or - ?

Is this using pump gas or E85 ?

vince

DrewII, thanks for the link. Now all have to do is find my math handbook or remember how to compute the octane of E85. 85% of 122.5 octane and 15% of 87 octane is?

Water (water and Alcoho) injection is used commonly on forced air induction systems today. Some forced induction kit manufactures include water injection in place of an inter-cooler and some wih an inter cooler. It depends on the amount of boost they are trying to achieve and other factors I'm probably not aware of.

Speed Pro is a division of Federl Mogul. I have to call Federal Mogul again and ask specifically for LPG pistons. I looked on NAPA and found pistons (the usual) in the delivery spot they said L.P. gas pistons have a longer delivery time or something to that effect. So I emailed them. There response was in as much, we don't carry them any longer go someplace else.

It's plus, plus. These are numbers that have come about in 75 years IC engine development.

The type of fuel only determines your maximum compression ratio.

Larry

Hi guys you have missed the entire reason that the goverment wants to switch to E-85. Your usage increases 20% so you are now buying more gallons of fuel so they increase their tax income by 20% since the tax is a per gallon charge. Think of all the extra money the could waste if the entire nation switched to E-85. They probably could fund a research program to prove that E-85 is going to kill us all! Then they could have us all switch back to opec, sort of like eatting Eggs.
Just a thought,
Big Bill

Well big bill I'm not sure what "reason" was missed. Your reason seems to fall under the heading of "WMD". The fault with your reason is that by the time the government goes through the process opec won't have any oil to sell. So why not build an engine to run E85, pay less than the 20%, and gain a little extra performance indefinitely. My 2 cents.

Larry

Larry;

I got the same story from NAPA too. So I guess Ross will get the job. BTW: NAPA here, no longer sells 'lug studs/nuts' made in this country. BALKAMP their Dist. no longer has Made in USA printed on the box.

Bill makes a good point, as 'taxes' via 'regulations' may have been why the E-85 price went up. We'll all just have to 'wait & see' how the 'mop flops' on this.

Here on the 'left coast' we've been hit so hard with Gov/political interference (in all walks of life) that It's really hard to see past it sometimes. Their getting away with this because most are so busy earning a living to pay attention, or see the "big picture".

The $3.00+ fuel prices have almost 'crippled' the "senior citizen" population/'war babies' who see past their deceit.

$1.00 a gallon fuel IS possible here W/O importing a thing.

By this time next year I will have conclusive data on solar. This will work great as the 'mid-west' has been spared this and is where all the farms are.

Happy Holiday.

Mr. Meredith, Atlast, a couple of things we agree. Our soldiers are brave, (the bravest) and that this website should not be used for political debate. Two things I do not agree with. Problems with oil productions was not the reason during Carter's term. Breaking the U. N. contract was most certainly not the reason for going into Iraq. If you will review your posts on 5-11 and 5-12 you will see who injected politics into this website about cars. I didn't post anything until several days later. I've got you figured out. You say what you want to and everyone else shut up and go away. I think you should take your own advice and keep politics out.

Your probably right, this IS a 'car club'.

Here's the place, for topics other than specific items (engines, driveline) to be discussed and YOU may disagree/speak ALL you like.

After over 50 years in the auto industry, I do get "carried away" (over It's decay) some times. Especialy the fuel and parts issues.

Happy Holiday.

John, Well enough said, and no disagreement with Harolds comments. I think all comments can be appreciated if on Topic.

I think your statement I quote "After over 50 years in the auto industry, I do get "carried away" (over It's decay) some times. Especialy the fuel and parts issues." is perhaps one reason this topic has been politicalized. I agree gasoline is a great fuel, it has been used for many, many years with success. In addition I think another reason is change. The politicalizing and the excuses alcohol will eat this, dissolve that, have me some what bewildered. This club that seems to promote inlines to be different. This club that promotes drag races, Salt Lake racing, and Hot Rods in general. Very few have every won a drag race the first time out or broken a record on the Salt flats. So what has changed with this group of "Hot Rodders". If it's not on the shelf you can't handle it.

My Dads' first car was a 32 Buick roadster in the late 30s. He couldn't afford a F*rd. The F*rds sold for more because they were faster and got better mileage than the Buicks, Huppmobiles, Reos and Oaklands. There were a few modifications made to that Buick (speed parts, no) downdraft carb from a GMC, the main drive on tranny broke while they were at they lighten the flywheel, a magneto from ????, and best of all they replaced the mufflers (Smittys, no) with irrigation pipe hacked sawed and baffles welded in. F*rds could still beat him off the line, but it wasn't long before he caught them. Change, in the fifties I sat with my Dad in the stands at the speedway and watched them destroy those F*rds in the modified races. My Dad sponsered the 54 California stated modified Champion. One of the reasons they won, they clearenced the rod and main bearings and put in a HD oil pump. In the sixties we were shaving heads and looking for all the octane we could get. In the seventies emission control, and don't touch your car if you want to pass the smog test. With the new cars today just to maintain it you have to buy hundreds of dollars in diagnostics equipment and anything major thousands of dollars, not to mention all the plumbing and wiring. I hope I've inherited some of Dads' Hot rodding.

What ever the reason is (demand) the price of gasoline is going up and up, it isn't just the price of gasoline, alcohol also. From the comments on this board and others the demand for alcohol won't be as great as gasoline. I'll build an engine for alcohol, it's a hobby I enjoy and willing to work at. I wish I had stayed with hot rodding along time ago. Hopefully I can blow of one or two the kids at the body shop on the corner. There is one particular F*rd pickup that comes up the street with is foot in every time and sounds like a buffalo in a wallow every time. :rolleyes:

Now where did that soap box come from.

Larry

John, Speaking of parts, I'm trying to locate those Federal Mogul gas pistons. I did a search for stocking distributors (right). I came across an outfit that puts together engine kits. I went to their web site not expecting much, surprise flat top pistons for a 292 with valve divits, ummm (hint). There were about 3 pages of pistons and these were near the end. Each piston 20, 30, 40, etc., had the spec.s compression ration, dished top etc.. These flat top pistons for the 292 listed 8.0 compression, why do I smell fish. I emailed them gave them the part number and told the compression should be more like 10.0 to 1. Asked if these weren't 250 pistons. Any bets on what there answer is going to be.

Larry

L;

These engines (292") produced more Hp & torque than the SBC when new. They were especially good in Tow Trucks. Somewhere 'along the line' they got "dished" lowering their capacity.

My 'bud' at NAPA looked for over a day and so did the machine shop people, same result.

If E-85 is 'regulated' to the price of gasoline no one will want it (20% less power) and this may be the point.

Solar can (& should) replace fossil fuel for home electric which will reduce our demand.

Sorry it wasn't autozone,can't remember were I saw them.

I'm with John, sounds like a job for Ross pistons.

What C/R are you shooting for?

Here's another thing I've wonder about E85, does it burn your eye's like when running alcohol?

vince

I believe ethanol & alcohol are a different formula.

I'm not sure how, perhaps someone can explain it.

John, you're right. Without getting technical
Ethanol(Ethyl Alcohol) is the base for all alcohols even the type one may drink.It is commonly called 100% or 200 Proof.Methanol is one of many derivitives and although I'm not too familiar with racing Methanol,I suspect that the effects we feel,taste or smell is due to additives as Ethanol in itself is odorless and
tasteless.

I called Federal Mogul again this morning and spoke with Matt in Tech dept. I asked specifically for the LP gas pistons. They do still exist and the part number is 980P-xx, xx being what ever the overbore is. Talked to the order dept. for availability and the 40 overs are in stock in LA. Still waiting on the other yeahoos.

Larry

Thanks Drew, it's good to know that burning eyes wont be a problem.

Good deal Larry, did you get them ordered?

vince

Hi John,
Alcohol is just a term for a chemical that has an -OH group in its chemistry. Ethanol and methanol are different in the length of the carbon chains that hold the -OH. Drinking methanol (aka wood alcohol) can be a problem tho - in the days of moonshine it was commonly refered to as "retina remover" as it left the patient blind. Great for race cars, but not drivers.
As a side note one of our local ethanol producers - Verasun energy - is going public soon. Shares look the be in the $20 price and they are planning to build 2 or 3 more plants in the upper midwest. We already have several plants in the area and they are all expanding. Looks like it is here to stay regardless of the politics.

L;

I'll try that # at my local & see, thanks....

6 n row;

What's the trading symbol?? Let's watch.
I wanted to buy Autozone when it was $21 & didn't. I think It's around a $100 now.

Here in California were ALL 'burned out' with political interference under the name of "correctness".

Enough said on that.

John, I dont know the symbol. I believe the SEC only gave a tentateve one because VeraSun still has to jump through all the federal hoops to make the IPO happen. I believe it could take 3-6 months to "git-r-dun" and start selling stock. I'll keep you posted. They are in the office next door, so I should be able to keep an eye on them (haha)
Amen to the political interference under the name of "correcrness", brother

Tomorrow is payday so I hope to have the pistons ordered by Friday afternoon.

I got a response from the engine kit place. It was as I expected the high compression (8.0) pistons with 'D' shaped recess. I mailed him back said thanks, but I had found the right piston.

I just looked at Leo's book again. On page 54 there is a picture of a rod and a "dome" piston. The dome piston he refers to is what I thought was called a popup. Leo also refers to the LP gas pistons again on page 56 as having 9 to 1 compression. Does anyone have a spec sheet on these pistons. I set my spreadsheet up for flat top pistons, 10 cc for gasket (didn't include deck height) and there is a significant difference from stock 10.5 with a slightly larger stock combustion chamber. With any kind of dome I'm thinking close to 12.0 to one.

I think I figured out the octane of E85. I posted previously that Ethanols octane was 122.5. I arrived at that number by averaging the the RON and MON numbers I found on one of the link. The average of RON and MON is what the Feds use for the number on the pump. So 85 parts Ethanol (85 x 122.5 = 10412.5) + 15 parts regular (15 x 87 = 1305) divided by 100 comes to 117 octane. Did I do the math right?

Larry

I'm checking that part number/price here too & I'll let ya know when I know something.

We can't really know how it will work till we have some to try etc. It's going to be okay for most (stock) autos though.

Like anything that's new there will be 'bugs' to work out.

This silly bit of info isn't worth much here,but my 4 stroke B&S riding mower is running good using 10% ethanol/gas mixture that New Jersey sells here.It's BP by the way.I know,so what. I just thought I'd throw that in the pot. :rolleyes:

Hello
Larry, My note was just a simple comment that as a society we should research things before we change them, to see what the cause and effect might be. My example of eating eggs was referring to the thought that you should never eat eggs because they caused high cholestrol, now they have found they aren't nearly as bad as they thought for years, but how many egg farmers went broke or had to change lines of farming because of it. I am 200% in favor of new ideas and progress but before everyone tries to change the world maybe some questions should be answered. I think a alcohol based fuel is a great idea if the nation truly has the ability to produce it in quanities required and not cause shortages or major price changes in other areas such as the food chain. One of the major causes of the increase in fuel and anti freeze prices is the amount of oil used in plastics from which almost every thing we use or wear is made from. Another thing is the notion we all have that we should have modern highways where we can go any where we want quickly and safely. These take tax dollars to build and maintain. I am retired and would love to see all prices drop by about 90% but I'm not willing to give up my modern life style to do it. So I will have to make do with what I can afford. I remember the "GOOD OLD DAYS" when I mowed grass with a reel type push mower and there was no TV to watch, there wasn't even fast food, and AC,PS,PB which we consider standard must haves on our cars today didn't exist.
Some times we do things like put 1500 cfm of carb on a 250 cu in engine then try to drive it on the street and wonder why it doesn't work as we think it should.
God's Love to All
Big Bill

Howdy Big Bill, I'm not sure if I want to say I tend to agree with you or totally agree with you. If as a society more research had been done before changes were made would they be the right change, maybe, maybe not. Your egg example is proof of that. I would like to think if society had more common sense things would be different. Has enough research been done on ethanol for fuel, probably not. I do know that there are some large corporations that have done enough research to commit to building at least 16 new factories to produce ethanol. There is also research being done on a hybrid of corn specifically for the production of ethanol. One of the complaints about ethanol is the cost of production. Most of the plants in the United States are of an older design and use a costly method of production. In Brazil they did change to ethanol for fuel thirty years ago. They have lowered the cost of the production ethanol. Are the new plants coming on line in the US, going to use the old method, no. Will the cost of E85 at the pump go down, no. In the Agricultural Industry historically as production has gone up the cost of production has gone down. Now what happens if you tie a renewable agricultral product to a diminishing resource. The price doesn't go down. If you think the oil companies profits are outrageous. Is gasoline going away, no, not till the last drop of oil has been pumped out of the ground. Now if you have a gas station with three pumps which one do you sacrifice. If you are one of the major oil companies you may not have a choice. Now is this conjecture, not ethanol. Can a capitalistic society do anything about it, not unless they want to give up their "modern life style".

All we can do is trust in the Lord, be aware of what is going on and try and take advantage of it with out hurting anyone. The last part is where common sense may have fallen down.

btw I rarely eat fast food and don't have AC or PS, one truck does have PB, the one that the rebuilt 292 will be in.

Larry

If it works well in a Brigs engine (today) and a WWII Corsair in the 40s, It's okay for water cooled cars.

We (society) can't afford any more delays on this. Energy 'independence' is long overdue.

Alcohol base fuel is much safer as well. There is no danger of explosion like gas. Most likely the grain & cane required won't need to be the same quality as food.

There will be plenty of eggs & chickens.

Energy independence reqires more than fiding a substitute for gasoline. Some changes need to start at home. How many use a 20-40 year old truck as a daily driver? How many bike to the store two miles away instead of driving?
We need to examine our lifestyle, and how we make the rest of the world pay to support it. We (as a society) consume more that our share of the worlds resources, and people around the world are suffering under US-supported repressive regimes, and in US-led wars so we can get cheap gas ($3.00/gal is cheap!).
In the real world, things cost more than we pay for them, whether the cost is the life of an Iraqi civilian, the childhood of the 12 year old indosesian making Nike shoes, or the health of the planet and it's inhabitants.
Mr. Meredith is right about solar power, it's a good place to start. I have friends with simple setups that are selling power back into the grid! But there is more to be done; thinking about how much energy your car burns is a good thing to do.
One gallon of ehtanol takes 131,000BTU's to produce, and only has an energy value of 77,000btu. And that energy is going up the smokestack at coal/fossil fuel-powered ethanol plants.
Argue all you want about the virtues of ethanol. It's just a distraction from the bigger picture. A buzz word for the Thief-in-Chief to drop in his speaches while avoiding real issues. Remember hydrogen?

tyb507, I remind you that the world always has been, and always will be about politics. Like it or not, thats the way the world operates. THAT is the big picture. All we can do is make our own corner of the world a better place. This forum should be about inlines. please respect that

I guess I misunderstood the description of this forum:
"Bench racing
This is an open forum. Talk about anything you want or lie about anything you want!" I thought this was the place.
Sure, 6inarow, I think we're on the same page, but the decisions we make in our corner affect every other corner. That's not politics, it's about human decency and compassion, or at least taking responsibility for the mess we're making of the world.

Hydrogene is much to danerous to use in a motor vehicle on the highway. The HHO device which converts water into a burnable gas is promising & we will see more on this later.

Ethanol (non fossel fuel) is much cleaner and will be self restoring for us here in America.

As we lead the way in clean energy production, others will follow and the need for non returnable fossil fuel products will diminsh.

Now doesn't this help the world 'as a whole'??

tyb507, My daily driver is 40 years old. My second truck is also 40 years old. A bicycle has been my sole transportation for 8 years of my life.

Are the figures you gave for cost of ethanol as old as your agenda. Do you know what the cost of production for the newer ethanol plants is? Did you consider that ethanol is more environmentally friendly than gasoline. Is there a distribution system in place for Hydrogen. Did you bother to read any of the previous thread, or follow any of the links on the topic.

This bulletin board is provided by a club devoted to Inline motors and this particular forum is "Bench Racing". I respect Big Bill for coming back at me with his concern about ethanol having been research enough to use as a fuel. Unfortunately I may have used too many words to say that powers in charge of the "bigger picture" have already decided that despite the production cost there is money to be made. Since ethanol is in the future and has an octane of 117, how best to use it as a fuel. If all you can contribute to the topic is your personal agenda, I suggest you start your own blog for more affect.

Larry

Hello Folks,
As we play with alcohol based fuels I would like to say one thing: If you have never been around a race track when a person covered with alcohol caught fire, I hope you never have to see it. A man screaming in pain as his clothes melt with no visible flame. BE CAREFUL IT DOESN'T EXPLODE BUT IT BURNS. IF YOU SUCCESSFULLY USE AN EXTINGISHER ON IT YOU HAVE TO GUESS WHERE THE BASE OF THE FLAME IS, IF YOU ARE IN BRIGHT SUNLIGHT YOU WON'T SEE FLAME TILL YOU OR YOUR BUILDING START TO BURN.
Not trying to be a Drag just concerned,
Big Bill

Big Bill, I've had the same thoughts. I had to work a full day today, so I wasn't able to stop by the local oil company or order the pistons. I going to the oil company to ask about the burning E85, current cost, order quanity, and storing. I have assumed that with 15% gas that it would be visible to some extent. I haven't seen warnings in the links I have visited about E85 and a fire. The dragster I was associated with ran on methanol and used a Halon extinguisher system. Might be a wise replacement for the conventional extinguisher I have in the cab now. I just checked that web site and 2.5 lb. is about $70, that's cheap insurance.
Good thought.

Larry

Dear Bill;

Yes; Alcohol can burn things, but It's much easier to control. This is why it is used in the Motion Picture industry for 'fire F/X.' Others (kerosene-propane)are too, but never gasoline because It's 'uncontrolable' for that purpose.

E-85 is a mix & probably will be visable in a vehicle fire. However a 5# (ABC) extingusher is the minimum for motor vehicle protection.

Now; some new thoughts..

Chevrolet Sales Div. has started TV ads on E-85/their new trucks. These show corn as the base with a 40s era Chevy. truck (driving along) in the background.

Anyone know how long it takes to grow a 6-8' high corn stalk??

World famous Jersey Sweet Corn,about 6 weeks in South Jersey.We'll be pickin' before July 4th, traditionally the start of corn eaten'!Geez, I hope they don't waste sweet corn on fuel.

Dear Drew;

I'm sure It's a "special breed" just for the E-85. Perhaps one that grows faster/larger.

The American farmer grew enough to feed all the GIs, POWs and population during WWII.

Watch him 'go for it' now.

PS: Corn will grow here if it does in Jersy. Our temp is +20 to +105 but dry. They grew onions in WWII here.

tyb507. I thought about it for a couple days and you are right - this is the forum to air these views. My apology for overstepping my bounds,

Flash fire,thats something I didn't think about.

Can someone with access to E85 do a experiment for us? Burn some in a coffee can to see if you can see a flame?

Larry, it will be interesting to hear what the oil company has to say.
When you get the pistons can you post a picture of one?

vince

D*m forgot to stop by the oil company. I did get the pistons ordered. The shop ordered them direct from Federal.

I'll take pictures. I will also have to figure out how to CC the top of the piston to see what that does to my compression figures. If it is a dome a radius I can caculate. If it is popup (aka dome) I will have to put a dam around the outside of the piston fill it and put the dam on a flat surface fill it and find the difference, unless some one has a better idea.

Larry

L;

I still can't get an answer on that part# from NAPA localy & this is really odd.

How close is it (a piston) to a SBC one?? Does the location of the wrist pin make it unique??

Nuts!

The pistons are very similar to a SBC. The 305 piston can be used in the 250, but because of the wrist pin location CAN'T be used in the 292. There was a real good dicussion sometime ago on the subject.

When I get the pistons I'm going to check the compression height against one of the old pistons. I'm thinking it may not be standard.

Larry

The 292 got "de-tuned" somehow along the way.

It was good stock. With the added compression, CID & Larry's lump ports it will be a real workhorse.

So why does LPG require higher compression over gas?
I've seen and talked to a few people over the years that have ran LPG on trucks and don't recall them saying they had to change pistons. In fact if I remember right they could run gas or LPG. One guy I talked to said he ran LPG until he got to the mountains then switched to gas for more power.

Larry, are you going to run a Carb or EFI on this motor? I'm thinking EFI might be the way to go,after all your building this motor for modern fuel it might as well have a modern fuel delivery system. Old school meets new school. Just a thought.

vince

Dear Vince;

It doesn't.

This may have been a (piston MFG) way to avoid EPA rules and probably how it got "de-tuned" in the first place.

This happened to one of the 351" Ford V-8s too. It dropped it from 225 Hp. to 165 in the 70s.

Remember the 60s, a stock 327 2bbl was 220Hp.

This (Gov. interference)helped make 'imports' look attractive when the Arab embargo occured too.

My Dad ran LPG in his Trans Van that had a Dodge 360 in it. He would switch between gas and LPG. Same as your buddy, LPG on flat land and gasoline in the hills.

I've thought about EFI. There are too many other projects right now.

Larry

Gentlemen;

Have you noticed the oil industry's play on "bio-fuels"??

Their running ads on DirecTV using the logo Bp trying to make it look "they" are part of it and interested in "alternate" energy sources too.

The plot 'thickens'.

John, Here's a different perspective, and will certianly get some dander up. I won't say that this article is unbiased or without credence, to ignore it would be foolish.

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m23728&l=i&size=1&hd=0

Larry

It's all going to be; "quite a chess match", isn't it??

One of the key components here will be the China/Russia 'alliance'. :rolleyes:

John, that EPA thing makes sense.
Ya, I seen that ad on comcast cable and thought it was kinda funny seeing the BP sign in the back round.

Larry,I hear you on the "too many projects" thing.
Where the heck did you find that website? Very interesting.


vince

Gentleman

Gentleman
Sorry about empty post not sure what happened.
A couple of years back everyone was talking about compressed natural gas which was supposed to be around 140 octane and safe because if the tank got ruptured it went straight up instead of spreading along the ground. There was a few systems around that allowed you to fill up at home suposedly, then it just dropped out of the "NEWS". Has anything ever progressed with that?
Big Bill

I did manage to get by the oil company. btw it's Paul Oil Company I spoke with Mark Paul, and didn't get a lot of information, he's not very talkative. He said that they could mix it in what ever container I brought. I asked about storing it and his reply was it absorbs moisture out of the air, so you don't want to store it too long. As to price that could change from day to day.

Vince The web site was one of the hits when I googled Paul oil company.

John, Yes it will be something to keep an eye on. Yhe China/Russian alliance didn't fair well during the cold war, haven't heard much since till now.

Larry

Thoughts
Compression ratio can be low on any fuel that is ignited by spark, but as we raise the CR the engine becomes more able to get the most power from a given amount of fuel, to a point. So higher octane sounds like a way to go but many have discovered that air plane fuels which carry a higher octane rating don't perform as well as one would think because they are designed to run there best at higher altitudes.
As for the farmers be able to produce like they did during WW 2, if you check the number of farmers and the amount of farm ground available today compared to 60 years ago you will discover a much smaller number. Then if we start to produce a cheaper form of fuel that is cleaner to burn the rest of the world will want it also. At that point the demand goes up and the price will follow. This will affect not only the fuel cost we face, it will change the cost of food. If you think about it corn is fed to Beef, hogs, & poultry. Also we make many many products from corn syrup. Now as we ask the farmer to work harder and produce more corn. He most likely will expect to make a higher profit in order to purchase the additional equipment, seed, fertilizer, herbicides, and other things required. Now if he is spending more he should expect a much higher bottom line so the cost of fuel and food goes higher. Then we have to consider the bad growing seaaon when he invested all that time and money and his crops either died due to too much or not enough rain and he had no harvest.
I still think alternate fuel sources are a great idea but we need to look at the over all picture before we leap off the bridge. The "QUOTE MASTER PLAN MAY BE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THAN WE THINK." Maybe instead of thanking or blaming politians, we might consider looking at big bussiness they are not in any thing for fun. If this becomes a workable thing the oil companies will still distribute it and control the price so as to keep their profits up.
In closing the best and only reason for an alternative fuel source is a cleaner safer world to pass on to future generations.
Big Bill

Dear Bill;

Hasn't the Gov. been paying them 'not to grow' for years in the form of "price subsides" keeping grain/food out of the world marketplace??

Don't under estimate these people! With the equipment of today they can produce more product with less land. The 'left over' portions (corn) will feed their animals, making it even more attractive.

Here in the California (high desert) the land remains unused since WWII where the onions were grown. Their's other lands (USA) where it can/will be done too.

Anything that aids our ecconmy today will also be helping the 'next generation' for future years.

Now; They'll be able to grow all they want, bringing $ back to our society which is long overdue.

John I most certainly hope you are right but I live in farm country. I have watched years when prices went sky high because it was a bad year and the crops failed. Then I have seen banner years when the yeild was great for everyone and the price fell to nothing. When was the last time you priced the equipment you are talking about, Like a 36 row corn planter or a no till system of twenty four rows or more, or even a three hundred horse tractor. Total the cost, the interest on the loans, the fuel, the chemicals, and seed. Then the question becomes what will the final price be when it is all over, and what will happen when we have the weather extremes that wipe out the crops for a year. An example of what I am talking about is a system to convert chicken dung into fertilizer. It provided a very cheap lawn fertilizer from a by product that was causing a problem with its disposal. Then the demand picked up for the fertilizer and the chicken farms wasn't suppling enough by product and the price went through the roof for the fertilizer. I am not arguing against E-85. I am just asking has anyone done the math? If it becomes the primary fuel for the world what would be the availability and the price. Also if we burn our corn in our car and our soy beans in our diesel trucks, will it affect our prices in the grocery store. How many gallons of gasoline are used every year just in this country? Also how many in the world. Now how many acres of corn would it take to produce that amount of E-85? Maybe this is a plan by John Deere to increase their sales. I think that solar and other systems need to be researched until they get it right. It has came a long way but it still has a long way to go. As for the onion fields if the are suitable for Corn and soy beans which need to be alternated to keep the soil productive. why have they not been farmed since WWII? I think that onions will grow in ground that other crops won't but I'm not certain about that. All of this is just my thoughts as I have not conducted any research or can I find any properly documented research on any of this. I just don't want to jump out of the frying pan into the fire. Also does anyone know why even though I am logged in I can't preview my post.
Big Bill

Big Bill, I think your concerns are justified, but E85 is not going to replace gasoline. E85 is an alternative fuel it will be another choice at the gas station. I don't think you will see it at most of the major oil company gas stations either. The economics aren't there for E85 to replace gasoline. From what was posted here E85 is selling for about 20% less than gasoline in the midwest. When a consumer with one of the new "Flex Fuel" vehicles fills up and then finds that he has lost 20% or better in mileage. The next time he fills up he will think twice about E85. The reason I started this thread because I have to rebuild a 292 for one of my trucks. If I build a motor for E85, it probably won't run on gas very well unless I run premium. On the other side I'll only lose about half the mileage with E85. E85 is not even available in California yet. A local oil company will mix it for me with out hesitation. By all indications corporate america is ramping up to make E85 widely available. Again E85 will only replace gasoline to the extent that the consumers feels he/she is getting value for their money. Now if there is an oil shortage and world events seem to make that a probability. Ethanol producers will be sitting pretty because they will be able to charge what ever the market will bear. Corporate incentive(?). Now if the demand for ethanol is so high that it cuts into food production or if not enough ethanol can be produced and there is an oil shortage. Who's fault is it.

Society in general has been warned. You only have to look at history for the last 50 years to see it. In the early sixties the autommakers made little autos to compete with those little autos from across the ocean. Then those little american autos got bigger and bigger. In the early 70s OPEC cut oil production. The automakers thought about little cars and mileage again. In the 80s and 90s the consumer buys SUVs and big trucks. Whos' fault is it. Is cheap gas an entitlement. Should the automakers not sell the consumer what they wanted. Should the governments have put higher taxes on gasoline. tyb507 said this, what he didn't do was look at what was said or follow the links. It is no longer a what if situation. Corporate America is ramping up to make E85 an alternative fuel. Again E85 will not replace gas, as long as gas is available. In any case if you have an engine built for E85 you come out ahead. The only engines that will be built for E85 will be built by Hot Rodders. You can't build an engine for gas and E85. If you use E85 in a gas motor you lose gas mileage. If you use gas in a E85 motor you could destroy the motor.

I intend to try and take advantage of the situation, but then that has been the plan before. I'm still working and I will probably be working till the day I die.

All you can do is trust in the Lord and hope for the best.

Hopefully I'll get the pistons tomorrow.

Larry

Larry
E-85 will go on sale next month in my neighborhood and it is be advertised as a blessing to consumers because it will be thirty cents a gallon cheaper and it will elimate the oil problem. Which if you burn 20% more of it you will only be paying an extra 30 cents (based on $3.00 gas cost)(a usable gallon) to travel the same distance. I agree with what you say about the use of it now. But it will be interesting to see what happens 20 or thirty years from now, which I probably won't have to worry about. What effect will E-85 have on fuel pump diaphrams, carb accerator pumps and like items? I am not against the E-85 I just wonder if it is not another idea that won't work if it gets mass approval of the consumer. Another thought is what will happen to a computer controled system that sets timing advance using spark knock sensors such as many Chyrsler products. My wife filled our grand Caravan with premium once and with in 10 miles the check engine light came on and the engine started to limp. It took two tanks of regular to straighten out the problem.
Just thinking outloud,
Big Bill

As vehicle manufacturers proceed with hybrid engines and the like,I think that will increase the demand for E85 and in the not so distant future we will see more stations with E85 pumps.I also recently read that in Iowa in particular,corn farmers are now selling more corn to an E85 producer then they are shipping to overseas markets.I think that indicates that despite farming costs there is money in the fields to be made.

Gentlemen;

No matter how we argue, this needs to be done NOW and the American 'work ethic' can/will "make it happen."

I don't know why onions aren't grown here, but It's probably due to the 'marketplace'.

I don't know much about farming either, but we ALL know that soon there will be a market for more (corn soy) than the food producers will have time for. This means that others will be in the game as well. There must be tons of used farm equipment + what the 'big kids' won't need or want when they expand. I'll bet a 4X4 could pull a plow to get some people started. This puts American land back to work for America.

As I recall; Charles pulled the plow while Carolyn steared in one episode......

This 'special crop' should be grown all across the country where weather patterns/conditions vary, protecting it from nature/disaster etc.

EFI systems will be developed (here now) to adjust mixtures so the ratio gas/ethanol can increase, reducing our fossil fuel needs more.

This (to me) is a simple way to get America united again and break OPECs grip on our transportation systems.

Thanks, Larry for the assumptions. Did you mean the link to the Coallition for Ethanol website (what were you saying about agendas?) or the one with the happy sun shinning over the cartoon depiction of environmentally-friendly ethanol production that seemed to leave out a few key steps?
here's a few links (not without agendas, but informative, neverless):
http://www.augustafreepress.com/stories/storyReader$39813
http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/patzek/BiofuelQA/Materials/nyt_12_08_05.htm
http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/patzek/BiofuelQA/Materials/cafestanderd_06_04_06.htm
I guess the pros and cons depend on who you ask, and their agenda.
As for mine, yes, Mr. Griffin, it is quite old. Concern for the planet and fellow humans doesn't go out of style.

tyb507, Good to see you back. I'm not sure which link "the one with the happy sun shinning over the cartoon depiction of environmentally-friendly ethanol production that seemed to leave out a few key steps?? I tried to go back and find it, but it is a bit tedious with a dialup. Thank you for the links. The links were informative and interesting, though they seem to be contradictory. As I read Agusta article I was giving more weight to Big Bills' concerns about food production. Especially when Pimental comments "it's morally wrong to grow crops so the wealthy can drive cars". Then Patzek calculates the cost of production of a gallon of ethanol equal to gas at $4.74 a gallon. In Patzeks' calculations are included government subsidies. Patzeks' also says he uses two models for his calculations. I can believe Patzek uses two models, since all the other reading I've done day it is difficult to figure all the costs of production. (btw were did you get your figures for BTUs to produce ethanol) The Times article seems to contradict Pimentals' morallity issue. The Times makes a case that the surplus agricultral production of the U.S., the subsidies the U.S. gives Agriculture, and the subsequent dumping of agricultural products on the world market are destroying the third worlds ability to produce any income from there agricultural products. No argument. Now wouldn't using excess U.S. production to create ethanol eliminate the subsidies and dumping? That would take the subsidies out of Patzeks' models. Patzek who works in the petroleum industry pumping water into dry wells to get any residual oil out. Where did Patzek get his expertise in the production cost of agriculture. Your right "I guess the pros and cons depend on who you ask, and their agenda."

Though mentioned, no real consideration given to ethanol for being environmentally friendly and renewable.

It takes more than concern, recycle, drive less, turn the thermostat down or up for the season.

Larry

Old Greek saying - Reasoning and understanding with moderation.

Almost forgot got the pistons today. Measurements, pictures and calculations tomorrow.

Larry

The 'nay sayers', politicians and so called "intelectuals" will always find falt in order to justify their position, job or hidden agenda.

Here in California we've seen/heard this "doom & gloom" BS for decades.

Don't fall for it.

Larry, what did he mean by "mix it in any container"? Does he get it in pure form and mix in the gas to make it 85-15 ratio?

Did he say if it burned clear or if there is color and you can see it burn?

Abosoring moisture is not going to be good for vehicles that don't get driven much. Condensation in the fuel tank is going to be a problem for sure then.

Cool, you got the pistons,that was quick.

Do you have a stock piston that you can take a picture of so we can see the difference between the two?

thanks,vince

Right....everything's just fine, just ignore that gaping hole in the ozone and those clouds of smog...don't they make for a pretty sunset! Keep buying things and burning fuel like a good consumer. Do as you are told and have a nice day!

Your totally 'missing the point' here.

The increase of Ethanol & other energy sources will reduce fossil fuel needs, costs and our dependance on foreign sources.

If your going to debate us here, have the courtesy to post your name as well.

Happy trails.

I wasn't thrilled when I looked at the pistons. They are not a dome. They are a dish. The dish on the LPG piston is 14 CC. I'm not going to be able to get the ratios I wanted. The machine shop said he has filled in the top of the piston with welded. The piston on the left is low (7.3?) CR, center is high (8.0) CR, right is the LPG (9.0)

http://home.earthlink.net/~lggriffin/pistons.jpg

Larry

Hello Everyone,
I wish to say that I am sorry if you thought that I had any negative ideas or an axe to grind as I shared my thoughts about what I was reading here. I just start to add up the hidden cost to produce vegation such as corn and soy, then when I think of a farmer having to invest a half to three quarters of a million dollars in equipment to competively produce crops plus the cost of buying or renting land plus the cost of trucking of seed, fertilizer,herbicides and ect to field then product to market which might be a long way to mfg point. I begin to wonder what the true cost will be and how many people have that kind of capital to invest. The day of a man farming with a three bottom plow and a two row planter is long gone. The crops will be grown by large corporations who have to make money for their investors (isn't this what the oil companies just said about their large profits?) and the prices will go up and then we will discover that these large companies are owned by rich foreign oil sheiks. In todays world the small farmer that farmed 100 acres 60 years ago would make enough profit to buy his health insurance maybe. In todays world most farmers that are successfully supporting a family on the farm have a college education and have more money invested in their bussiness than we have the courage to think about.
These farmers can tell you what the true cost of planting a crop and getting it to the market will be almost to the penny. They can tell you if the rain or the tempatures are up or down what the result will be. This is how they make the judgement of when to replant a lost planting or when to cut their loses and hope for next year. If you want to do a interesting project in your spare time. Find out how many bushels of corn can be grown on an acre of ground, then check the market value, then add up the cost of planting and harvesting and hauling. see what your net difference is then decide if you would purchase a 100 acres to set your son up in bussiness plus co sign for used 30 to 40 year old equipment. You don't have to tell me the answer, I already know it, my family farm was sold for a high dollar sub-division thirty years ago. A friend of mine still owns 83 acres that he cash rents to a guy that farms about 1800 acres, he gets $7000.oo a year and does bettter than he ever did farming it after expenses. Another friend still owns 60 acres that he share crops with a large acreage farmer, this years when all the crops were sold and he settled up his half of the seed and chemicals he was only around $700.oo in the red (we had a bad weather year here last year) This is what scares me about E-85 cost going up in the future. Also if it requires special additives in the motor oil what are their effects on the evviroment going to be. If it is like;y to draw more moisture what will that do to our vehicles and the list goes on and on. I can only say that I hope most of these concerns are unfounded but I think they need to be considered. Another example was when the feds broke up AT&T we were going to see cheaper phone service, did any of your phone bills go down?
God's love to all,
Big Bill

Dear Bill;

Your concerns are important points to consider in this isssue and were lucky to have you in our group to present them.

The "doom & gloom" folks in Berkly, Ca. were who I was refering to.

Archer Danials will be the "big kid on the block" with this like you say, but the 'small guy' will play major role as well.

Perhaps BLM lands can be used (free), maybe 'tax incentives' (income) will play a role. Don't the Oil Co.s make fertilizer? The growing of (non editable) corn must be cheaper than, that for human consumption. What if the (final)product were 'picked up'from the farmer?? I don't know.

I do know that; you & your neighbors can/will figure it out somehow.

What kills the farmer is the 'unstable sale price' or timely need of the product, Right?? With a constant need/price for the (non editable) corn, this goes away, Yes/No?? Not my field.

We won WWII in the 40s. We rebuilt Japan and Europe in the 50s. We won the 'space race' in the 60s & 70s as well.

We CAN win this one too.

Big Bill, One of the things that concerns me is the genetically altered corn. In the first Times link that tyb507 provided I was surprised how much they have altered corn. There was a big brau ha about several years ago about genetically altered corn hadn't heard much till now. Is there any interest in organic farming your way.

Larry

Larry, Its not a very pretty piston is it,I don't know why I was thinking it was going to be a forged piston.
Is the one on the left a forged piston or did you give it a massage?

So its a 9:1 piston with what CC head?

I'm not to sure about welding up the dish, for some reason the just doesn't sound good.

Can you deck the block and head to bring it up a little bit more?

vince

Both the the right and left are cast pistons. As for looks all I can think of is a difference in what they may used to finish them with after machining. The one on the left is the same material hypereutetic [sic]. Didn't massage it.

9:1 with a stock 74 CC head. If you unshroud the valves then you would be less than that. I would like to be at about 10.5:1 with a stock head. Then 10 CC change in the head one way or the other will get 1 point change.

The welding idea didn't sound real good to me either. It looks like the only way get a flat top piston is to go forged. I am looking at another cast piston for a GM 366 CI V8. The problem with it is the pin dia. is .9898 compared to the 292 which is .9273 and compression height 2.16 to 2.009. There doesn't look like there is enough meat on the piston end of the to offset the bigger pin. Even if there is it still means milling 80 thou off the top of the piston. Anyone interested in a set of pistons. (I know not here)

I've checked the deck and with the old pistons I'm at .072 and Leo Santucci says don't take off more than .030. I've already figure that into my calculations.

I really don't like going forged form this application, it's basically a street machine. A cast piston should handle the compression with out a problem. These cast pistons were not cheap. I'll check with Keith Black about finish machining the 366 to the 292 spec. If I don't get a NO from K. Black the price will still probably be bite the bullet and order forged.

Larry

If there is enough meat on the Rod. You could have it honed out for the Bigger Wrist pin.
And if the Pistons Have the groove for a snap ring You could? float them in the rod.

Just a little food for thought.

In regards to pistons And compression ratio I read an article in a magazine a couple of years ago about getting more horse power out of a V-8 by going to longer rods (5.7 up to 6.2)which increased the dwell time at top dead center,giving a longer burn before the piston started down I think they was using a ford rod with a special piston that had the wrist pin relocated. Now what I am wondering is there a longer rod out there that could be resized to fit a 292 then run stock V-8 pistons to match the bore. I'm certain that this would take some time in a spec book for rods to check it out, but it MIGHT Work and it might give a major torque increase. Also if this could be figured out and if it increased output and kept dependability you would become famous in your own time for figuring it out. Hows this for a thought? If you think about how many of the things we do to a 250 came about after somebody probably said it couldn't be done, People like Leo and others had to prove that it could and would work. As we know we have sixes running better than a lot of V-8s in a world where

Well I still dob't know what is causing my computer to post something before I tell it to but it has happened again. To finish my sentence in the last post in a world where everybody knew a six could never out run a V-8
Big Bill

Well I guess they just don't make pistons like they use to.

Too bad they don't fit the 250.

I like the full floating idea.

A little longer rod sounds like something to maybe look into. I wonder is a set of reworked rods cheaper than custom pistons.

So they will only make forged pistons to your spec's and not cast pistons,thats a bummer.

vince

They wouldn't be any good on a 250 either, not for compression anyway.

I checked with the machine shop today and there is not enough material to that far oversize and take any abuse with a heavy piston. To bush them you would have to even further since they are a press fit now. These guys seem to be pretty sharp andmost helpfull. My confidence factor is growing the more I work with them.

According to theory a little longer rod will get more RPM. Right now I'll just settle for a combination that works. It's going to take me a while to collect, sort, and figure the combinations.

I'm not real sure what the process is for both cast and forged. I know that they both start with a rough form and then machine it. I don't see why you couldn't start with a rough casting and machine it slightly different. I guess these days you have to consider liabilities. I'm sure Silvolite wouldn't sell a rough casting and the CNC program go with it.

Larry

The piston (MFG) may take the position that; Our ideas don't follow the "mainstream thinking" now days. Also, with the higher compresson and probable higher RPM usage, cast pistons are prone to failure, making them 'look bad' etc.

There probably is a way to heat & stretch a rod(s) to work. This too would be prone to failure @ high RPM.

Aries or Ross is the way to go today. These units are expensive but won't fail under most circumstances etc.

Gook luck to all.

Its always nice to find a shop that is friendly and know what their doing.

The guy I use to use moved back to the Carolina's and builds Nascar motors. I can't remember what team he went to work for.

Now I have no idea who to use or should I say trust.

Actually by the time I unshroud the valves and polish the chambers the compression might be alright.

vince

G10-250, Give Gary a try at Champion Motors, at 1068 Florence Way in Campbell. He does good work and there are folks that trust him with some very rare motors.

Larry

Hello What I am wondering is there a rod the right length made for some other engine that would be the right length and could be safely resized, pin and bearing wise to allow use of Small block chevy pistons in a 292. What is the exact rod length of a 292 and how far is the wrist pin below the piston deck, then what is the wrist pin to piston deck on a small block chevy the difference would give the rod length needed. I know that many performance motors have been built using rods from a totaly different motor and I wonder if this is possible for a 292. Crank journals could be turned slightly smaller or welded up and made slighty larger. even wrist pin bores in pistons could be honed slighty larger to fit a different pin. This would take some research to figure out but it might be possible. To the best of my knowledge know one has ever changed the length of an existing rod successfully more the a few thousands.
Te article I was talking about was in HotRod magizine a few years ago and they claimed to be getting 400 plus hp and still be very streeetable.
Just me thinking
Big Bill

Thanks Larry I'll have to go by there and talk to Gary.

big bill, I've been wondering the same thing about using different rods. It would take some researh but there might be some thing out there
that might work with the right piston to achieve the desired compression ratio.

vince

Big Bill, There are alot of things that can be done to make the rod fit. Here are the 292 rod measurements, length 6.76, pin .9273, crank journal 2.1, bottom end width 1.050. The piston compression hieght 2.009. We looked briefly for another rod when I took the pistons back. The F*rd 300 looks good except the crank journal is about 3 inches. If this was a competition or record machine everythingyou say would be considered. Since this is a street machine I don't want the cost to exceed the cost of a set of forged pistons and reconditioned rods. In Leos' book he mentions a Sportsman rod with 7.0 lenght, that would be perfect with a 283 piston. I'm going to email Armond, II to see if he can get the mfg. of the rod in Leos' book. I haven't been able to find an online catalog for connecting rods. I'm going to go by the machine shop and see if they will order one for me. btw United Engine and Machine Co. (Silvolite?)
http://kb-silvolite.com/spistons.php?action=details&S_id=231
have there catalog of pistons online. There are quite a few pistons in the bore range to choose from.

Larry