It seems the new energy bill just passed may affect the old car hobby---what is the current pecentage they are puting in the fuel now? If there is an increase in percentage what will happen to our old cars---will they run OK or are we going to be forced to buy some upgrade so our cars will run??
HI 52er : Not sure about the exact answer to your question , but along those lines , I called " Eastwood " to ask if the new fuels will dissolve the gas tank ( epoxy ) kit I got from them . His answer was , absolutely NO problem . FLEET
I am pretty sure you can run higher compression w/ethanol.
MBHD
I'm gonna' drive my '53 pick-up! With help from the minds here we'll deal with it. That doesn't mean we should sit back and be victimized by the 'Green Goons"! I ONCE ran my Morris Miner into town(Sonora) on Kerosene. It didn't like it.
What should we expect to replace to run comfortably on Ethanol? Seals, O rings...?
Ethanol is not a viable option. The green guys are already attacking the increased growing of corn by protesting increased nitrogen levels in water blamed on run off from farm land. Funny how golf courses and private jets don't cause problems. Methane makes more sense,but I don't think there will be a single answer to this problem. It wasn't that long ago that our old cars were doomed by unleded fuel. We survived that! Thank God we have old guys with experience,young guys with interest,and both with a love for this old crap!
To run on 100% Ethanol (Or any other Ekly) a different needle valve & gasket will be in order i think. And more maintance will be in order because elky can be more corrosive, If it is let to just sit in a carb & fuel lines. You can run more compession.But you may also need bigger
jetting.
Let's distill our own alchohol and we'll all run on Nitro!
RapRap
1940 ChoppedChevyCoupe
You do have to run larger jets, about 30% larger. From what I've found out you may have to change more than needle and gasket, there could be problems with gas tank, rubber fuel lines, carb disintegrating, and who knows what else. Considering the price of gas, and my compression being 11.0 to one I may just get a drum of ethanol and report on what happens.
Larry
Gentlemen;
As I recall It's 15-18% & to be added to current gasoline formulas etc.
Bio-diesel is a far better move. It runs our trains & 'big rigs' coast to coast, grown in the mid-west and requires little refining with no new infra-structure.
The American Farmers were the 'unsung heros' of WWII and they can/should do it agian. They just need to "get it done" W/O federal money, using 'private sector' investiments.
Three words come to mind here; "hit it tiger".
Things in the agricultureal world are a lot different today. During the war about half of the population lived on farms or small towns. Today less than 1% of our population is involved in agriculture. The old familes that got us through the war have mostly been forced out by developers and taxes. Add to that the growth of corperate farms,foregn owened farms ,enviromental laws.and foregn demand for farm products. Wheat is going for record prices because China can afford it,They are turning their farmers into factory wokers. If any one can do it I wish them well!
What concerns me is the fact they increase the percentage this year and you have adjust you car to run OK, then next year they do it again and so on. They nickle and dime ya to death with the changes where eventually you have to convert the whole fuel delivery system---money-money, what a bunch of crooks. Let`s face it they want to get rid of our "poluters" and if you asked any of them about how the internal combustion engine works--they don`t have a clue----ethanol is not the answer for us in the old car hobby, for that matter even in our daily drivers....
Well there's plenty of land to use & lots of workers from Mexico.
Perhaps a "share croping" arangement similar to the 'reconstruction era.
We (the country ) can't wait any longer.
Happy trails.
52er you've touched on a few good points. I don't think you will see a change in mix any time soon. The 15% Ethanol in gas is enough to cut the emissions. The 15% gas in Ethanol (E85) is enough that you so you don't have to prime the motor to start it. Ethanol not being good for old cars is correct, will cause the performance to suffer and the mpg to decrease by about 30%. You can get back part of the performance and mpg by raising the compression 4 points which will get you about 15%. My machine pointed out to me when I was looking for longer rods for my 292, The rods in the older motors were not designed for high compression.
Larry
John, I agree we have plenty of both and we should do something. The issue is not a shortage of fuel it`s a shortage of drilling and refineries. A small minority wants us to go Green and they don`t care about prices or the economy. Gasoline is still the best fuel out there and the cheapest. I would use ethanol if it was really cost effective---if it wasn`t subsidized they wouldn`t make the stuff. It`s driving up the cost of food. I think they can utilize the people in the auto industry and come up with better fuel economy. Heck an LT-1 in a Buick Roadmaster gets 21 mpg.To think ethanol is going to fill the gap is a dream. If I could trust that the powers to be would leave us alone and give us the oppertunity to have the fuel we need to run in our cars I might concede. I know there is non-oxy fuel here--but how long?? We better keep an eye on these guys or someday it may get to costly to have an old car. Sorry about the rant---follow the money!!
Gentlemen;
This is becomming a SNAFU because there are two government agencies about to 'do battle', with our cars & light trucks again.
This has been looming here in California for decades. With the most recent CARB decision to kill the electric car and DMV stoping the "30 year rule" on vehicle SMOG checks.
Throw in the 'global warming' hoax and the fire just gets hoter/lawyers richer.
I predict the EPA (federal agency) will win the day with the new fuel consumption standards. No matter how the rest is debated, that works for everyone & is long overdue.
E-85 & the new standards will just help offset the fuel needed for all the new drivers/vehicles in the future.
Without Bio-diesel in the mid west, NO drop in oil imports is possible and why the D of A will block that too.
Happy trails.
Who is the "we" that has all this land? The federally owned land is not for us to use,it's to look at.That leaves private land,and with the Supreme Court's decision on imminate domain there really is no private property! You just get to use it and pay taxes on it until the government finds a BETTER use for it. You don't really think Exon is going to let a bunch of farmers into the fuel business? Corn uses a lot of nitrogen and that must be replaced in order to grow corn on the same place again. Runoff from fields carries nitrates into rivers and kills fish. Groups of greenies fight each other over this. If there was an easy solution it would,t be a problem!
BOP;
There's literly thousands of (formerly owned) farms all across the USA, that went 'back to the bank' in foreclosers etc.
Probably for the reasons you mentioned.
A friend traveled from Florida to Washington State and was 'amazed' at the vast waste of the farmland, NOT being used across the 'mid-west'.
Right where the trains/trucks run "cross-country".
I've heard that this is throughout the Country too. These family's are going into other lines of business/work like you said.
The Oil Companies own ALL the high mileage carbs and the battries for the electric car too. Let them "put this/our land to use". The standards for (non edible) corn is less than that for humans/animals. Perhaps a hybrid organic--I dno't know, we can't afford to wait any longer on this.
The Farmers can/will know how etc
Happy trails.
Now we get to genetically enginered crops. This is spooky stuff mostly because of intrusion into neighboring fields by altered pollen that Monsanto owns the pattents on. Huge law suits that the real farmers will lose. Our science seems to create more problems than it solves. But John I hope you are right and I'm just freaking out!
BOP;
I've personaly seen Tomatoes the size of Voleyballs, in 1985. The vines were grown around special platforms, in a "greenhouse". The grower said they tasted "bland", but when picked "soft Baseball size" they were the same as "normal".*
Here in California; we were about to get another (SMOG lie) tax extortion, when the EPA made It's ruling. Now the Lawyers/Courts have it.
Time will tell; In the 'meantime' we all pay the price, one way or the other.
Happy trails.
(*) That would be a 'golf ball' size kernel of corn and taste wouldn't matter.
Pop cprn on the cob! My son drove up from Ventura yesterday. Have a Merry Christmas!
You guys have hit on one of the confusing complexities of farming. Genetically produced crops that are easier to grow and farmers being paid not grow so much. Kind-a-goofy to me.
Politics work in strange ways, don't they? ;D
Yes and it's worse than we can get into here. The not for food stuff has already made it's way into the food supply. How do you knqw what corn was used to make your canned tomale? The Farm
Bureau won't tell you the represent agrabiz. Mqnsanto owns pattents on ovr 80% of all seeds world wide. Try to find seeds that are not hybred. I'm quiting this it's depressing me! DONE
I'm not going to comment on the politics on this one last time I said anything I got a rude surprise..
Technically either ethonal or methonal (more so) attacks the typical pot metals used in earlier carb's and fuel systems. Hard anodize will help for a while but eventually the metal disolves...
Last summer I got some info regarding CARB that I was asked not to discuss fully - in nutshell they have a budget to find a solution to this problem - but its does not involve keeping carb's on vehicles.....
Personally I'd be quite happy if I could buy E85 locally - it would make a good performance fuel - but with the oil industry owning the province here its not likely to happen any time soon. Last time I filled up here 87 octane was $0.98 per liter ($3.70/US gal.).
efi-diy, Do you have a time reference as to how long it will take to destroy the carb, ballpark guess. I'm sure the time will vary depending on carb. You are the first one that seems to have a good idea of what is going on
It has been recommended to me that the carb be zinc chromate plated, any comment.
Larry
Depends on the alloy used - its a slow process that errodes the metal. I think having the fuel flowing tends to carry away the oxides mentioned in the link and thus speeds up the process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol Try it - get a chunk of a busted carb and methonal and put it in a large jar.
efi-diy, Thanks for the link. I'd looked at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol last year and they don't mention the acidity at all, though there is more to do automotive use. Unfortunately I won't be able to test. I'm going to look into buying a barrel of it tomorrow.
Do you know of any efi motors running ethanol (alcohol) on a daily basis?
Larry
Quite a few folks locally are using methonal under boost to increase the octane of the pump gas - its sprayed in seperately from the pump gas. It also cools the air down considerably, enough that folks are not running an intercooler.
As far as straight methonal, the injectors and fuel systems on the later model engines are typically M85 compliant from a materials point of view so its less of an issue. So 100% is probably doable with minor changes, I'd have to take a closer look at the fuel tanks on the M85 and see what there made out - most likely composite or S/S.
MAybe our Brazilian friends will chime in here they have been running 100% for over 30 years.
Here we go again this is the same discussion that started the problem a while back BE CAREFUL.
As long as we keep our heads and avoid name dropping we should be fine.
We do need to find a solution to keep us running. I also think the answer will come from another country.
Some practical info on compatible materials:
http://www.e85fuel.com/pdf/storing-handling-e85.pdf Check page 14
MY car is melting,my car is melting!
Originally posted by Beater of the Pack:
MY car is melting,my car is melting!
This is the problem CARB is trying to address.... as the alky % is increased older vehicle emmissions will go up due to worn carburators...
Currently, 10% and 85% ethanol is available. In my opinion, E85 is too expensive for the BTUs. I gotta wonder if there isn't a misunderstanding here. Where are you getting the information that there is a mandatory increase in the percentage of ethanol in fuel (ie. >10%). I would have suspected that the energy bill is requiring more gallons of blend, not a greater percentage of ethanol per gallon. It would be impossible to legislate >10% ethanol since the vast majority of vehicles do not support it.
We have been using 10% blend for greater than a decade with no ill effects. The ethanol does clean out rust from fuel tanks. Change fuel filters frequently for awhile and all is fine.
I supplement heat in my house with a corn burning stove. The exhaust is acidic enough to require AL29-4C alloy stainless steel chimney liner. Cost more than the stove...
Minnesota already has a 10% mandatory blend and is thinking of going to 20% by 2013--I am going by what`s going on in Minnesota and with the new Fed bill who knows what might happen. The more ethanol in the fuel costs us as old car hobbiest more money to upgrade so our cars will be compatable with the new fuels. It`s a cost I don`t want to do and I don`t know where it stops. Just one more step to eliminate the old car hobby for the sake of the enviroment. It`s the old saying---"were`re doing this for your own good". Time will tell, then time ran out.
Gentlemen;
I think Jayson's correct & the percentage will stay around 10-15%, with more 'mixed fuel' being made, not a higher percentage etc.
That (of course) is a 'nationwide' probable adverage and the 'mid west' is really where It's needed and they (CARB)* have NO juristiction there.
The EPA doesn't care what they think anyway, even in California.
Hapy trails.
(*) The California Air Resources Board, a State "bureaucarcy" only.
Minnesota will go to 20% after their "studys" come back showing it will do no harm to engines. They always make thier research come back with the findings they want---they all do it. Odds are MN will go to 20% after that. Then they will have another Study to see if 30% is OK---and so on!! Why can`t they leave us alone---the percentage of fuel we burn as a whole doesn`t even put a blip on the radar---so think again, what is their motive.
Originally posted by 52er:
SNIP
Why can`t they leave us alone---the percentage of fuel we burn as a whole doesn`t even put a blip on the radar---so think again, what is their motive.
52er...
Its not us they are after - we're just a causality of a bigger problem. Well you could always run 100LL avgas they won't be able to mess with that the FAA won't let em.
If I were in the USA I'd start searching the wrecking yards for '82 to '84 ford 302's that came with CFI. Looks like a carb but uses 2 standard fuel injectors. Since the bolt pattern is rectangular its a lot more friendly to make adapters for.... The early ones still had a choke plate
.
Ya a guy could convert---but the whole object of owning an old car is to have an "old car". I like my three single barrel carbs and will use them till they make me switch. Yes it is a bigger issue but they are crushing cars in the yards now for the cost of scrap is way up. The east and west coast are getting rid of the old car yards and the rest of the country is losing yards right and left.Soon there won`t be any left. I do think our old cars are polluters to them and they have no time for the old car hobby. We are a small percentage of the cars on the road , so it`s no big deal. Oh well!!
Cars don't kill people,people kill old cars. A bright note,my son was home for Christmas. He's majoring in enviromental studies at UNR. He has had several professors who don,t go along with Al Gores view of global warming. It's evident that there is change but not from the causes Gore and company site. Remember, there was an ice age before there were cars. It's a start. I agree it's not us they are after, we're just there. It's total control of fuel, food, land and water. Other than that we are free to do as we wish if we pay our taxes!
By the way Will Rogers never met Al Gore.
I just want to know why the politicians aren't screaming global warming when the cold fronts hit the NE and Midwest US where they are campaigningBut let the temps hit the 50's and look out.
We need more people like Will---so much common sense, which is lacking today---90 days for us in cold country till the drag strip opens---aahhh the smell of burning rubber in the morning!!!
Most Scientist's look at "the algore" like the U.S. Army does at Gomer Pyle.
He's part owner of a big Corporation that stands to make billions from "golbal warming" theorys (if believed) and the Politicians just "follow the money" to get their share like always.
It's going to be fun to see the Dept of Energy and the EPA "shoot it out", that's for sure.
Happy trails.
I think that we are deviating a little bit with the global warming stuff again.
I have heard that new gas station fuel pumps will allow you to pick whatever percentage of ethanol you want. I have no problem converting to >10% ethanol; it just doesn't pay at the moment.
J;
It's all misdirection again!!
What's needed is 'bio-diesel' in the the "farm belt" to supplement interstate transportation needs. The trains/trucks that use that fuel and in that area, the center of our Country.
It's 'right in line' with the planned 'N-S corridor' too.
There "surpessing" this concept, hoping it will go away and be over looked. Just like the "SMOG lie" was/did.
Happy trails.
Yes John, there must be more than one answer to these problems. In the thirities all our power was giong to come from hydro-electric plants. Well, there aren't that many rivers not to mention the problems that caused. And yes we need more Will Rogers types though polititions have never had common sense and those with common sense by nature stay away from politics. We must find ways to use what is viable in local areas and not expect one sorce to do everything. It is crazy here in Nevada with 300 days of sunshine each year that we have power plants that run on fuel oil. I'll burn what ever wont kill my Jimmy.
That's correct.
My big gripe is the wasted fuel/imported oil and the price were all paying, to go nowwhere. It's just "beyond stupid". :rolleyes:
EVERY solutition is somehow surpressed or financially forced away. This is NOT the 'American way' to remain stagnant/further dependant on things we've already found a remedy for/solved (10 years ago)...
To tell the same lie; over & over!!
As stated in the film; "It's going backwards into the furure".
Happy trails, if you got the gas.
Originally posted by 52er:
Ya a guy could convert---but the whole object of owning an old car is to have an "old car". I like my three single barrel carbs and will use them till they make me switch.
:) try 3 1bbl tbi.... couldn't resist the all for fun poke...
EFI, you are closer to the truth---it may come to some tbi set up in the future in order to keep driving it---I am to "old skool" to want to do it---only if I have no choice---bad poopie!!!
Has any one watched the price of soy beans dble since last year? $6 to $12 a bushel (round Numbers)
It only makes sense. Corn has gone up some too.
The price of oil has doubled, maybe we can get used bicycles from China and resell them for a profit.
btw don't plan on doing any bodywork after 2010 that requires paint you won't be able to buy it, unless you have a certification and a filtered spray booth.
Larry
Unless you start using the 'new' water based paint. Saw it listed in a paint article in one of my subscriptions (Car Craft I think). Cause water doesn't count as a VOC.
I'm lovin' this. We can run our cars on split pea soup and color them with tempra paint and crayons while third world countries can pollute all they want in order to catch up to us to make it all fair.
There was someone in the news recently who could could make water "burn". Something to do with the hydrogen and oxygen molecules I think. I now wished I'd saved the article.
Originally posted by Beater of the Pack:
I'm lovin' this. We can run our cars on split pea soup and color them with tempra paint and crayons while third world countries can pollute all they want in order to catch up to us to make it all fair.
If we weren't muzzled here I'd say something...
strummin was that "firewater"? efi-dyi muzzled? I just say stuff and if they tell me to go away I'll go bother someone else. Everyone want's to live in a nice clean world and we should treat others fairly but this over the top enviromental BS and giving what has made our countries great away so we can pay more for less makes me crazy!(er) Your manifold design looks cool. I'm still reading and gathering parts.
Here it is.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07252/815920-85.stm Obviously there is a lot of research to be done before it reaches us but it's a start.
If this thing will generate enough power to run the equipment and burn a flame, then we'll have some real promise. Of course, someone will start campaigns against the excess hydrogen oxide in the atmoshere and someone will buy into it.
lol well water does burn lol If you get it hot enough stick you hand in it and See how bad it burns Just kidding guys LOL Maybe time to go back to the steam engine?? Heck lets Just go back to horse back riding & covered wagons lol.That would take a nice bite out of the fuel companys.??
Just my smartA** 2cents.LOL
L;
That's exactly what "the algore" & his follower's want; "going backwards into the future". AKA 'misdirection'.
Also why the electric car has been surpressed. It's better 'all the way around' to convert electricity into rotary motion than 'heat energy'. Like the Railroads do it. :rolleyes:
As long as their 'movement' can keep things confused, the politicians/government wins and the motoring public loses.
Weve watched it develop here in California for 40 years.
Nuts!!
As the polar ice caps melt we can burn the excess and save the world! Also it won't matter how many oil spills we have because we're going to burn it anyway. I wonder if J.C. Whitney sells a radio that gets that frequency, we could drive down the road burning a big tank of salt water and listen to our favorite tunes! Man we were afraid the alcohol was going to eat up our cars this will be real salt flat racing,inside and out. I guess in wet years now we'll see posters of Smoky Bear warning us not to set Bonneville on fire." You are entering a wet salty area.Turn your radio off!" Or am I missing something? Really it wont matter Exon will buy the oeans.
Nope, That's about it!!
Well,of course water will burn. It's made of Hyrodgen and Oxygen. If you apply energy to it, that's what you get and if you put a match to those two...Poof, free energy (at least if you don't count how you got the gas from the water)
Dear Leif;
Correct and exactly what the "hydrogen super highway" is here in California. An 'end run' around the EV-1 and solving our energy problems.
There's NO need for any of this 'nonsense' and most in the Auto Industry, have known for it decades.
I guess we get; what were willing to "stand-still" for.
Happy trails.
Any one who has lived through jumping a hot battery has some first hand knowledge about making bombs out of water and electricty,like my friend 'One Eyed Jack'.
'We have the best government that money can buy." Mark Twain.
That's it!!
The BIG problems we have (Energy-'war on drugs'-Immigration) are easly solved with (legal) "simple simon" solutions, discarded in the 60s.
Today/right now; none of this would be here if we just had the time/money to pursue it 'back then'.
I "saw it comming" too and warned everyone (talk shows-Newspaper 'letters to editor') & they thought I was 'nuts'. Many still do and I was so busy 'earning a living' to continue.
You see; These "problems" are NOT considered problems, to those that reap a hugh profit from the grief & misery that's caused. They say; "give us the money to solve it & we will", blameing the victims and the 'beat goes on'.
Happy trails.
John, we're all nuts, look at the engines we love! The immigration thing will not go away until it is exposed for what it is the 'New Slavery'. Not the kind where slaves are housed, clothed ,fed.,and cared for after they can no longer work for free. But the wage slave kind where you're under paid,over worked,and unable to report abuses,for fear of being sent back where you belong. Any one Who hires an illegal should be deported! Gorge Carlin has a Great solution. Too political. Im sorry. Maybe we need ,along with an eBay forum, a political forum because we are caught in this and sticking our heads in a tank of alcohol or salt water is not going to make it go away. At least the head stickers wouldn't have to read this cr--!
Yeah, what George Carlin says! On the 'immigration' issue anyway.
As far as bringing back the steam engine, it hasn't gone away. I have a friend in the power generation field that was telling me that there are some of the power plants that run gas turbines using a heat exchanger to recover energy from the exhaust to drive a steam turbine. The biggest problem was load management. When you need the steam the most (sudden spike in demand) it's not there in meaningful quantities.
Your both 100% correct and we had a good one here too. Some 'left over' from the Carter Admin. raised a fuss, Lorin quit and now Tim's 'in the middle'.
He'd rather be spending his efforts on Bonneville and a "victim" here too.
Solar's the way to power most everything in the home and It's free. You just need to learn how to "manage power" is all.
The 'electric car' is only gone for a little longer because people are 'fed up' with high priced transport costs.
A friend did a paper recently on fuel/politics. His conclusion was; "all is well till gas goes over a dollar".
I agree; The Gene is out of the bottle.
What's new?? Oil is over $100 a barrel, you think it's going to stop there. I still want to find a source for used bicycles in China, with the number cars they are driving bikes must be cheap. I'll sell them here to folks that can't afford to drive cars. OK now for the conspiracy theories. The reality is the demand for gas is greater and the world is getting warmer, just ask the Polar bears.
Larry
There is nothing new.
All it means is that it will cost us a lot more to use E85 than regular gas.
So all of the farm land used for growing corn for fuel is just a big waste of space.
You guys who were talking about using Hydrogen and Oxygen as a fuel are barking up a leafless tree. On the surface of it, an engine running on an H2 and O2 mix is a great idea, but like a lot of great ideas, it has a few slight bugs in it. Namely, when you burn H2 and O2,the only combustion byproduct is H2O, or water vapor, which is great for the environment, but what you DON'T get is very much heat energy. In plain english, it doesn't make much power. It also detonates easily. Plus you have to store both the H2 and O2 in gaseous form, and there are problems with doing that. H2 is the smallest molecule of all the elements, and it has a naughty habit of escaping from whatever container it is kept in. (Does the name Hindenberg ring any bells out there?)(Lakehurst, New Jersey, maybe?) And do any of you remember the old high school chemistry experiment where you heated steel wool and then stuck it into a vessel of pure Oxygen and watched it burst into flame? Now let's think about an automobile with tanks of compressed H2 and O2 on board and it gets into an accident and manages to rupture the O2 tank. Wow, what an amazing fireball that was........completely melted the entire car! No, oxygen doesn't burn, but it does accelarate combustion, and it does it in a grand manner. I wish it was practical to run a car on H2/O2, but unfortunately it isn't.
And you guys who are talking about the aims of various politicians are pretty much right on the money. They don't give a **** about much of anything except increasing the control the government has over you as a citizen. I've spent a number if years in the firearms business at the retail and wholesale level as well as being both a civilian and military firearms instructor for over 20 years, and if you think they're after your old cars, try being a GUN owner and see what happens! I'm beginning to think that all the car enthusiast groups in the country should think about doing a merger with the NRA, because them polecats in the government don't like either of us kind of folks. And the reason that they don't like us is that we don't, for the most part, go along with their b.s. and are fairly independent thinkers, and they just HATE that. They know we don't need them or have any respect for most of their opinions, and they just can't stand that!
The Polar bears won't answer me no matter how nice I ask. I'll just ask Al, he'll give me the straight poop! We should grow more rice and bribe the Chinese to ride their bikes!
Did they mention cost in that article?
Farmers arn't complaining.
Larry
By the way, just a little tidbit of information I saw on the internet the other day.........Algore the Environmental has a 20 room house that is gas heated and has an average natural gas bill of $2400.00 every MONTH. When's the last time your gas bill was that much, hmmmmm? And you can check that out in Snopes, it's there. So much for Mr. Environmental; do as I say,not as I do.