Last week a friend offered what he thought was a duel carb and exhaust for an International. It turned out it was a Dodge. I could find no ID plate but it is an early to mid '50s. My dad had a '52 it's that body style. It is a 2-2 1/2 ton and was not an old truck when it was converted to run a ball mill to crush ore. It has no rear axle but has been inside all these years. I took a 6V 6 cylinder Sun Tach out of it. The engine is a flathead 6 and a plate on the side of the block says it has a high compression head. My question is what is the displacement of this engine,and is it worth saving? I think I can still get it but it will soon be headed for the scrap yard. Is it too big for a car or smaller truck? This is a stock carb and exhaust set up. The exhaust reminds me of the headers on a Wayne head.

Hey Beater;
Throw a tape measure along side the head. If it's a little under 2ft it's probably a 230. If its a little over 2ft it's probably 265 or possibly a 251. If it's way over 2ft it's the "big six" (these also have 6 intake ports instead of 3) and it's a real rare deal that may be as big as 413! In any case I think it's worth saving.

Leif

I'll try to get back there this weekend. It has 6 exhaust ports and is well over 2 feet long.

Interesting!
here is a link to the earlier discussion of the "Big Six"
https://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbth...=true#Post37431

Leif
(where is this thig located?)

On the front left corner of the engine, just below the head there should be a pad with a number in it. It should start with a T or an I, followed by a set of numbers. This will give you information on the original year and application of the motor. Some of these were originally in farm implements like combines and the such.

I just looked over the Big Six info and I bettin' on the 413! The aluminum tag that told about the High Compression head and high altitude engine was on the left front side of the engine just below the head. Are the other numbers there or actually on the front of the block? Man I hope it's still there! You're going to make a Mopar convert out of me!

OK, I just got back bleeding hands and all. I have the manifolds and carbs! The head measures a little over 30". This is a twelve port engine, big ports. I could not see numbers. There is a compressor where the might be. There is a flat behind the breather/oil filler tube but I could not see numbers. There is something about nickel cast into the driver side. I took the tag that says,"WARNING This engine is equipped with a high compression cyl. head-use only with special fuels or at high altitudes" The carbs are Ball & Ball Made for Chrysler Corp. I'm trying to get the entire engine, don't know if I can, but another 5th of rum, and a few more knuckles will score the head. I have driver by this thing for over 30 years! What do you think?

I think it's a "find"!
If you could get the whole thing, that would be the way to go. I think most of these engines had a compressor for the air brakes, but for sure what you have is the post WWII "Big Six". I'm sure it's heavy and large but also incredibly strong. It would take a bit of radical surgery to fit it anything "normal" but it would sure cause a crowd to collect. With minor tweaks, you would have about 250 Hp and tons of torque! I'd love to have that thing and I'm sure other inliners would as well. My problem is that I am just today making an offer on a house we want to move to, and the garage needs work (built 1929) so it will be months before I'm back to cars.

Leif

Leif, Thanks. I don't think it would be that though to fit it in something. A 292 Chevy head is 31",counting the thermostat housing. Over all the Dodge Big Six isn't much ,if any, longer. It may be wider. This has got me thinking, I know where there is an early 20s Dodge Touring body and I have a frame to fit it, engine size no issue. Just dreaming! But at any rate I agree , I think I've found something worth saving. Someone here could do something good for it, I can't let it go for scrap.

That is an amazing find! Get the whole engine if you can. Also the bellhousing, clutch and transmission.

This is a rare engine used only in heavy trucks. The parts will not fit anything else so without the whole engine they would be no good unless you want to hang them on the wall.

I'm thinking that engine in an old Dodge or Fargo pickup would be a real conversation piece! Don't forget to reinforce the front springs ha ha.

Not a good idea to get the head, methinks...

For a start, it risks losing bolts etc. Then there's also the possibility that someone will say of the rest, "Ah, it's got no head on it now, let's sell it for scrap." That might even happen without the manifold.

Go in and get the lot!

Ray, I agree. Talked with some friends today and we are planning an assault that will score the whole thing. It's kind of funny that the guy that has it is willing to let me get pieces but is reluctant to let it all go at once. Maybe he likes the visits.

Made the deal today and will pull the engine Monday. I'll take some pictures. Wait till you see how this one was used. If all is well I plan to haul it to Rappin' to Minden on the 31st.

Good work... look forward to the pics.

Didn't happen Monday. Next shot Saturday?

The Big Six kicked my butt today. Got the radiator out, all lines disconnected, front and right motor mounts free, but then came the clutch, left rear mount, trans bolts, and u-joint. I've never seen this type of u-joint. Didn't have big enough wrenches for tranny bolts and could not see well enough to figure out the clutch linkage. Going back in the morning. The truck is a '52 last registered in '78 which surprised me. Vehicle weight was 11,800 lbs and it had duel rear axles. I hope this is worth it. This thing is huge. Fan to tranny is close to 4 feet!

Got it! Another full day but it is home! I haven't pulled the compressor to look for numbers but there is an aluminum plate on the lower right of the block that says Chrysler Industrial. The head is 30" by 9". Overall from the water pump pulley to the trans mating surface is 48". This is a big engine! I took every thing radiator to tranny including 3' of drive shaft. I was showing it to a friend on the way home and he said there was another on in the back if a big van a few miles from here. I'll check it out. I'll try to get pictures on soon. Tomorrow I'll unload it.

BotP...

That sounds very cool. Can't wait to see the pics. It also sounds like a case of who's got who. That thing must be huge heavy.

Paul..aka Xerxes

OK, it's unloaded. Here are some numbers: Behind the water jacket 9-24, middle of head 1483668, left side of block below starter 1320629-1, below that CWC and J204. On the lower right side of the block is an aluminum ID plate that says Chrysler Industrial Engine, Model ID 22A, Type 902, Serial 2405, Part Number is blank. At the bottom it says Chrysler Industrial Division, Trenton, Michigan U.S.A. Also cast into the left side in three lines is NICKELCHROME, MOLBDENUM, IRON. While looking for numbers I used a brush on the flat where the generator mounts and it polished right up. This could make a good looking engine! It turns over! Also on tranny 039921, 5-1-51, and NP in a gear which i think may be New Process? It's a 5 speed.

Great stuff... keep it rolling... and let's have those pics.

I got a digital camera today and am trying to figure it out. I am tech challenged. But I'll get them on here!

BotP,you have PM.

Rod

OK. here we go! I think I have it now, here's the Big Dodge! My friend Vic helped me load it into my '53 Chevy today so we can take it to Minden tomorrow. I had a heart attack Wednesday and that put me a little behind for this weekend but it's loaded now and ready to go. Here's the link.

http://picasaweb.google.com/sixpics/52DodgeBigSix?authkey=BZdrDZ3_kiY

thanks for the pics BOTP.
man -what a weapon! that looks to be in really good condition too. bet it would run!
have you made any plans for it yet?
that will have the torque of a bulldozer.
keep us posted.
hope the heart attack does'nt give anymore trouble.

regards,Rod

Very interesting piece!! I've been following the thread and it's great to see the pics.
Take care of your self and don't overdo it for a while.
Al

Al, I can take it easy tomorrow. I hauled the Big Guy to Rappin' to Minden today and will post those pics in the morning. We had a fun day! Some times you just have to drag your old heart along if it can keep up!

BotP:

Wow!!!! That is great! I know it must have been a battle getting that thing out of it's original home. It sure is cool though. Now you need a cabover hotrod!

Thanks again, and take care of yourself

Paul...aka Xerxes

I've still got photos on my phone of the actual recovery. They will amaze you. When I figure that out I'll post them. I also just put Rappin' to Minden pics on the Bench racing forum. Check 'em out. And Yes I think this sucker will run!

I got a re-pro shop manual on eBay and it has both answered and posed questions. It is for '51 &'52. The truck thi came from was registered as a '52. It has really detailed rebuild info and some really dated service tips. To check the hydraulic lifters you suck on them and put your tongue over the hole. If they stick to your tongue they are OK! To dispose of old sodium filled valves you burry them. My engine according to this book can only be as large as 376.98 ci. 4" bore and 5" stroke as opposed to 4 1/16 X 5 3/16 which isn't 413 ci any way. My engine has no number where the book says it should be (only a small C on a small oval boss) and the book makes no mention of the aluminum plate on my engine or a model 22A. Could this be a factory replacement? It was not something thrown in from a wrecking yard. There was no evidence that any of the attachments had ever been messed with except for the tach.

It might be an "exchange" rebuilt engine.

I was able to play with the Big 6 today for a while. I pulled the plugs. Some showed signs of moisture. The plug holes are over the valves and not the bore so I couldn't measure the stroke. I put oil in the cylinders and it turned easily until I put the plugs back. I had been using a pipe wrench on an old crank. With the plugs in I could not turn it over until I put a 2' pipe on the wrench handle. I can not tell if the valves are opening but they are evidently sealing fine. Do any of you think SCTA would have any interest in a class for X engines larger than 375 ci? If I put this in a Lakster it would be in a B gas class where the record is 280+ mph. I don't care about a record but the extra cost of building a car in class that fast would be prohibitive. This engine would be fun to play with and just see what it would do.

You might have to be more creative...

Are there classes for trucks? Is there a class for flatheads in boats?

Or, if you follow the old adage, "If it don't go, chrome it..."

There are truck classes but I have a Nuke Warhead! Boats? It has to be wheel driven. It'll go and it's Nickel-Chrome-Moly, it'll sparkle too. I just don't think 300 MPH is in it's future. There are classes only for Ford/Merc flathead V8s & classes for 4s. All other "vintage" engines ( inline 6s & 8s Valve in block & overhead & other flathead V8s & V12s) run XO and XXO ( unblown& blown ) up to 375 CI. After that you're in the mix with all the modern stuff. There needs to be another mostly for fun engine category. We'll see what they say. Like I said before I don't care about records or trophies. I'd be happy to run for time and try to better my own. It's just that it gets really expensive to pass tech when the record I'll never come close to is nearing 300 MPH. I haven't even talked to SCTA yet and probably should have before I talked about it here. This has most likely come up before.

I brought the missile war head home today. It will form the nose of the lakester. These pieces measure 9'. There will be an 8' section added between the cone and the base. Over all length will be 17-20'. At the back of the cone it measures 30" (762mm). If I use a different intake the Big Dodge will just squeeze in. This might just happen!

http://picasaweb.google.com/sixpics/Bott...P8lXO3ebkX0nHQ#

Wow!
I see your point!
(sorry couldn't resist)
this is going to be a wonderful project!!!!!!!

Leif

Leif, How goes the move? Well, I'm looking forward to this build. It's more involved than anything I've ever done. I'll be counting on help from here. You have a lot of information on these engines and I hope you will help me through this. I'm trying to finish up some projects so I can really focus on this one. My goal is to have a roller by spring to haul to the next "Rappin to Minden." Then a racer on the salt in August of 2010. Thats a tall order for me! If it was race ready today I couldn't pay the entry fee.

Real-estate is not moving here... sort of suspended animation (or maybe a coma) anyway I'm all for helping and maybe I could show up in B-ville in 2010, the place has always fascinated me but I’ve never been.

Keep us posted, this is fascinating stuff and I think the nose cone is the best (and most original) idea I've seen since the bubble top rods of the early 60's. You may start a whole new trend!

Leif

Leif, if you guys hadn't been discussing these big Mopars I'd never have known what this was, thanks! I have access to several more nose cones. Maybe I should get them to sell and finance the project. I went to Speed Week for the first time this year although I've been reading about it for as long as I could read. I'll never miss it again! It was one of those 'home coming" feelings, like I had always been there. Why did I wait till I was 63? So I'd have a humungas Dodge inline 6 and a nuclear warhead to play with I suppose. By the way I was able to measure the stroke of the big 6. It's 5 5/16"!!!! From my books thats as big as they get. 413? In my tables the only ones with 5 5/16 stroke were the 413s.

5 5/16 = Jack Pot!
It has to be a 413 produced only in '53 and '54. Rated at 171hp @ 3200 and 343 ft lbs at 1500RPM (!) so you sure won't need the 6 speed tranny! I think I saw where Egge has gaskets.
With a mild clean up and some big pipes this will make a noise that will send the rice rockets scurrying for cover. Man, this is gonna be good!

Leif

So now you're blaming me...

Ray
This thing has 6 intake ports, maybe he could use 6 motorcycle carbs like that Hudson you showed us a while back. They could be big ones since each cylinder is over one liter (Hey! a wine bottle is only .75 liters, ... these really are BIG!)

Leif

Yes, If there is blame it's partly yours. I've gone back through these threads and I have made a list of those involved. You will all be held accountable! If this doesn't work out well I'm showing the list to my wife! On the other hand when we comlpete our first successful run the beer is on me!

Top idea! I should put you on my staff!

Shame I don't drink beer...

Ray,Then if I ever get that far south I'll take you to "The Pub With No Beer" and you can drink what you like!
Leif, I'm thinking about multiple GM TBIs (3) and Megasquirt.

Rockets? Where the heck do you buy rockets?!

This is Nevada you can buy anything! Until about a year ago a friend had two anti aircraft guns in his back yard. It's kind of how America used to be. Actually it's not the whole rocket just the war head.
I got an answer from SCTA. They are not interested in a bigger Vintage Class. (375+) That puts me in B/L where it would cost $3,000+ for tires, and a lot more for other high speed safety equipment not required at a speed this thing might really go. (150-175?) So this project is on hold. My plan now is for a '50 GMC pickup with a 302. 132 mph is a winner. I may not do that but I may be able to afford to try!

Beg and plead...

What have you got to lose?

Certainly not that kind of money! I'm not totally giving up on it but as far as I can tell I may as well have the only 413 in the world. I haven't found any parts not even gaskets. I'll work on the rule guys and see what I can talk them into. The rear engine roadster class is a little more friendly. Maybe a modified pickup. It would be a perfect long term Bonneville racer to hand down to my sons. Two or three generations might get it up to 57 or 58 mph!

HEY BEATER, Come on lets go for 59! LOL 1OL RADNECK I.I.#113

Hey Popper, If you want to kill yourself in something I put together at breakneck speed go right ahead! I'm playing it safe.

I'm sure there's a scrap guy in CA who has a truck or two with them in... and the trucks are still in use...

I think they are rare but they made thousands and they have so much metal they can't rust that fast. I have seen references on other forums (such as the pilot house truck forum and AACA) so there must be a few around. I bet the military collectors might have some too. Those guys are into "BIG".

Leif

I'll keep looking for a parts source and would appreciate it if you guys run across stuff if you would let me know. Like I've said before I would not have known what it was if it wasn't for you. We need to use it!

Here's a good place to look:

http://forums.aaca.org/ubbthreads.php/forums/35/1/Dodge_Trucks

I remember reading a post from some one in the Pacific Northwest that had a few big sixes. Let us know if you hit pay dirt!
Happy holidays!

Leif

Bingo!

http://forums.aaca.org/ubbthreads.php/ub...ad_sixes#UNREAD

Two owners posting there, though one only has the 377... but there's pics.

Leif and Ray thanks for the great Christmas present! I've been snooping around on that site for a couple of days now. It gives you guys a break here too!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Funky-Wil...sQ5fAccessories

?????

It's not for a 12-porter, that's for sure...

The bolt pattern will be the giveaway with that one.

And seeing as the eBay listing will disappear in time, here's the pics:

Check the guy's other stuff. There is a Chrysler straight 8 manifold! Link

I've seen this guy selling his stuff at swapmeets around the midwest. I saw this manifold in person at Iola, WI this past summer. It is definitely for a larger than usual inline.

Olson's Gaskets says the have gaskets for the 413. They are not cheap but they have them. So now I will be able to look inside and know I can seal it back up!

Olson's

cowerth, I'm putting the specs here so we can keep this in fewer spots.
Bore& Stroke 4 1/16 X 5 5/16
413 ci
171 hp @ 3,200 rmp
424 ft. lbs. @ 1,200 rpm
8.5 to 1 CR
12 ports
head 9" X 30: 33 studs

Another Big Dodge 6 is in the area. Some of our local chapter members toured some collections and shops in our area (while I stayed home and cussed my project) and Dennis Bargman sent me pictures of another Dodge/Chrysler Huge 6. BD#2

Cool!
Do you think they would be interested in selling it?
Send me an e-mail at Leif.Ortegren@us.Pilkington.com

Thanks for sharing....

Leif

There's still the rumor of another one! I'll see what I can find out about this engine at our next meeting.

I just got back from a Texas trip. I think there is another 413 at Owen's Salvage in Wellington, Texas. After we had left the yard I was telling Bob about mine and he said he had one sounded the same. I'll send pics to him and get him to check it out. It was too hot to go back out there!

Too hot? In Texas? How hot was it?

When it's too hot to go back and look for a piece of heavy scrap metal that one can carry home and add to an ever-growing collection of same, now then, brothers and sisters, that's hot.

You can go back for that fine piece in the winter . . . but then there'll be an ice storm. That's Texas, as we remember it. Maybe then the 413 would give you some traction.

God's Peace to you.

d
Inliner #1450

Several years ago I stood in Owen's salvage and looked through the fence into South Side Salvage catching glimpses of many 30s to early 60s vehicles sticking out of the heavy brush. Only a few of the truly dedicated, even if they had permission, would brave the cold in winter or the humid heat, ticks, chiggers,and rattle snakes in the summer to chop parts out of the brush. Those conditions saved some great stuff. Bob Owens (Flat Top Bob on the HAMB) has fixed that so now it's just heat and cold and the cattle that keep the grass and brush in check. He has it all organized as only Bob can do. I should have gone back out when Bob told me about the Big Six But I'd had the yard tour and the new house/shop tour and we were trying to get to Miss Piggy's Bar-B-Que before they closed. Now in Texas there is nothing worth missing Bar-B-Que for, not even hot rod parts!

I was finally able to get the pictures of the removal of the Bid Dodge off of my phone cam. BD

What a lovely beast! Look at all those ports!

Leif

Here's the story of finding and retrieving the 413" Dodge/Chrysler six. Too big to run in vintage class at Bonneville.

Where??

I talked to Owen salvage. Darn my luck, he shipped that motor to Norway just a couple months ago. Sure wish I'd found this post sooner!

Norvay? Gees! That must have cost a fortune. There is one in Yerington, Nevada. At least I think it is still there. It is the one I was telling Leif about. I still haven't had a chance to get over there. There are pictures of that one here somewhere. Are you sure Bob said Norway? He talks kinda' funny. Did he try to give you the Stude V8s I left there? Beater

Well, we talked by email, so it was pretty plain:


"and thank you for th email.

we did have one of those big sixs here but i just sold it a few
months ago and shipped it to a mna in norway.
the guys dad had built some kind of homemade car or something wth one in it.

anyway the guy want a extra for parts. got 500.00 for it. guy was loading a container here with parts so he could get it home easy and cheap."

So, there it is. Another great part went across the big blue pond.

I would be interested in the one in NV, but I don't drive within 50 miles or so of NV frequently like I do that one.

There were guys here from Germany and Austraila this summer buying and shipping everything they could find. They didn't find me. Beater

With the Australian dollar riding at a bit higher than parity with the US dollar, that's no surprise.

I have to try a bit of that myself one day...

When I bought my wind plant from there in the '70s the Australian dolor was worth 1 and a half of ours. It was a bad deal for me all around. I keep it as a reminder.