Truck Guru's......
This truck was salvaged out by the goat barn. Dad's had it for 25 years, I think it was an old plumbing truck. By the looks of it the old 40's GMC has some rust but no bubling except for the front window frame. Looks to have a 216 in it and who knows what kind of tranny/rear end. I think it's a one ton??
The question is, I think I'll return it to stock splendor but maybe it's not worth it? What say you???
http://s1185.photobucket.com/albums/z358/speakfordadead/
That is nice. It does appear to be a 1 ton pickup, not all that common. Maybe a 3/4. It should not have a 216 as that is a Chevy motor. Probably a 228. The valve cover should have the GMC logo. On the block is a flat behind the distributer there is a stamped number. The first three digits tell the size of the engine. Any GMC up a 302 will bolt in. It would make a better stocker than a rod because of it's size. A great push car or parts/equipment hauler. That way you could keep and use the bracket on the rear fender. With a rear gear change it could do moderate highway speeds. 3.55=55-60 easy. Great find. You'll find a lot on the Stovebolt site. Beater
Thanks Beater.... I did look up the numbers as you suggested. It is a 228. I do have 302 GMC blocks available. Will have to look for the gears. I think it would be a great Advertiser for Pop's shop. It has moved itself to the front of the pack for restoration. So many to do..... whew. I will look at that stovebolt site too. I'm sure resto's on these types of trucks have been done many times. Why re-invent the wheel!!!! Thanks again!!!
Glad to help. That Stude in the pictures looks good too. All of the gas stations, shops, parts houses, and wrecking yards used to have cool pickups with signs on the doors. Keep us posted of your progress.
Looks like a '41 GMC, how many lugs do the wheels have?
Tim
Geez... I didn't even look.... Five i think... I'll have to get back to you in the daylight...
Beater....
That Studey is too gone. I put a Toyota 2.0 in it 30 years ago. Rotting to death. It's sister was sold to a local Bonneville racer who is going to run it in august with at flathead v8. It's going to the Bonneville guy Wednesday for frame parts. It will get chopped up but it's for the greater cause!!!!!!
The push car idea is PERFECT! Here I come Ocean Speedway!!!
Take some pictures of the wheels and rear hubs. The one on the left front looks like an "artillery" wheel that were used on some 30s-40s GMCs. Some were 15" and some 16", maybe even bigger. All that I have seen are 6 lug. That would make your truck a 1/2 ton. 8 lugs would be 3/4 ton. I don't know if any of those wheels had 8 lugs. I also don't know how many lugs would be on a 1 ton of that vintage, possibly 5. But that would look like a big truck wheel. From the pictures the bed looks longer than a standard long bed.A guy here has a '37 or '38 1 ton pickup. I'll have to take a closer look at it.
Maybe I'll see that Stude on the salt.
The LWB 3/4 ton '45 GMC I have has 6 bolt wheels?? I believe they didn't get 8 bolt wheels until the 1 ton model.
They are six bolt wheel's.... 16 inch at least if not bigger. The studs are almost as big as my thumb. If I am not mistaken they appear to be like military type rims. Split rims?? I'll get pics in the morning... just got in from the shop... lot's of activity here with race season approaching. It seems I always have time for other people's projects but never my own ;D
Split rims can be very dangerous if not handled properly. I saw a guy get killed and his friend lost an arm before my dad could get out of his shop to stop them. I worked in a tire shop when I was going to JC. I was the only one the boss would let do splits. I thought it was an honor maybe he just didn't like me. I ran 16" split rims on my '53 when it was the ranch truck. They look great on a work truck.
My friend had one let go in his tire shop when it was mounted on his tire machine. Blew out some of the windows in the shop.
I have seen first hand of the results of guys filling split rime and yes, that technology has created many tragedies. I am no expert by any means but after changing then on our farm equipment with Gramps and Dad, I know well enough to take them to an ag shop where they have the appropriate containment and experience to deal with them. Here are pic's of the different wheel's on the truck.... quite the menagerie....
Any input would be great... cleaned them off enough to see and after really looking at them they do not appear to be splits. Whew!!!!
Two of those are the "artillery" wheels I was talking about. They all are the standard GM 6 on 5 1/2 pattern. That was used on 1/2 ton pickups and cars.
Thanks Beater....
The book says that series 150 was a 3/4 ton..... guess I'm gonna have to count leaf springs now.....
Humble newby
I feel the need to ramble a bit, here's the way I remember it...
The '41 GMC was the first of the new style that ran from '41 to the '47 first series.
It was unique in a few ways, the parking lights were 2 piece die cast where the later ones were stamped tin. Also the grill and bumpers were chrome, the right door handle had the key lock in the handle, where '42 and later had the key lock in the door below the handle, and the cardboard headliner was 2 piece with screws across the center of the cab, as opposed to the later one piece headliner.
During the war, the trucks produced had painted grills and bumpers, plastic coated door and window handles, and eventually the body seams weren't even leaded in. The chrome came back with the '46 model.
The 1/2 and 3/4 ton used the same body/frame/bed options with suspension differences, and came standard with a 3 speed trans. All GMC beds in these years had steel floors.
The 6 lug wheels came in 15", 16", and 17" sizes and interchanged with the Chevrolet. Starting with the one ton rated chassis they had 10 lug wheels, the one ton usually had 17" and the 1 1/2 ton 20", but had larger lugs than Chevy. The front fenders on the larger trucks had larger wheel openings.
I drove a '41 GMC half ton with a 228" and 7.60x16s 100 miles a day to work and back for several years in the '80s in all kinds of weather, quite an experience. The 228" is a good, dependable engine for a daily driver.
Tim
Thanks Tim,
We have decided to restore the GMC and use it as a push truck at the local speedway. Stand by..... the build is in progress...
Humble Newby
Tim, Thanks for all of that information. That seems to be the time when the present day weight ratings were being sorted out. I had a '40 chevy 1/2 ton that seemed very light weight. With a strong 261 it seemed even lighter. Canepa, This truck will serve you well and as Tim says a 228 is good and strong engine.
I was able to have a good long conversation with dad about this truck. He is all for the push truck idea but wants some changes made. He wants to put disc brakes on the front and duals to the rear. I have the parts to do this conversion and am willing to do it.
Also, I am considering putting in a 302 with a mild cam and modifying the head ( fill and mill) to increase the compression to 9.5 to 1. I think this will be adequate to bring enough torque to the big dual rearend and get those Modified racers off to a good start. Am I on the right track? Or am I all wet??
Humble Newby
Glad I spotted this thread, that's bitchin.
I really like the idea of building it as a push truck.
If you are doing work in the engine, you might consider a set of flat tops, I thought Egge was doing something with that.
The small port 302 head should work great.
Use a bigger trans, th 302 is famous for destroying the stock running gear if it's abused.
For clarity, the application you've chosen to build for is just about as "abusive" as you can get.
I don't know what to reccomend for the trans as I don't know what else you would do with it (driving to and from tracks on the freeway, get and OD of some sort, just the track in your town, a SM465 should work fine).
Unless you want an auto (nothin' wrong with that
).
If you do, stay away from a 700R4 or any variant thereof as you are working it harder than you want to.
If you want an overdrive auto, a 4L80E (or an '85E) with the factory "service upgrades" and an aftermarket controller (Bauman seems to be the least expensive).
What are you going to do for the rear axle?
An air locker would be ideal, but a "lincoln locker" would work for a while.
Good luck, and please keep us posted.
I'm going with a stock '44 GMC Dual rear end. 5.14:1 ratio according to the casting number on the pumpkin. I would like to build a little torque into the motor for the application. I am tossing around an SM465 trans as they used them in these bigger rear ends. I did consider Hydramatic and dropping six springs between 2nd and 3rd gear, but it's been years since I rebuilt one and there is an SM465 on the shelf in Pop's shop still in cosmo. "Keep it simple stupid" is my motto on this build. What do you think about my choices so far.... any food for thought???
http://s1185.photobucket.com/albums/z358/speakfordadead/The rear end in this pic has been identified as a 41 by the parking or reverse light option seen. Still need to figure out some numbers so I can order seals and bearings... no leaks but I'd like to put new ones in anyway.
CT - when you get it back to Washington - stop by when you are looking for a decent tranny or 270/302. I have been selling off stuff and would be happy to help you out.
I am running an GM variant of the A833 OD tranny and am pretty happy with it. With a 5.14 you should have plenty of grunt in first gear for pushing with a 302.
Thanks for the offer Ken,
Pops has a plethora of blocks and tranny's. He's also got some kewl intakes too. I discovered a container with floor to ceiling 28 feet long of nothing but inline stuff. There are 28 containers on the property. So if there are any inliner parts you need I'm happy to help. Flat head parts, Ford, Olds, Merc, Chev, GMC and even one container full of trannies. So right back at ya!!!
Tin is something pops had always been short on. I really need a bed floor as the steel on in this project truck is all but gone.
Humble newby
Any flathead Ford six cylinder stuff? Aftermarket intakes? Heads?
Randy
It depends,
I have plebty intakes and exhausts, some aftermarket 3 jug and single four barrel intakes.... send me cid's and dimensions for your application and I will get back to you!
Humble Newby
The SM465 would definitely hold the torque, especially with the 5.13 gears.
The RPO MY6 (GM 833) would be an excellent trans for that application.
It would let you even drive it to and from the track at a decent speed.
The best I can suggest is roughly 9:1 compression, zero deck, small port head, with good exhaust and intake.
If you search efi-diy you can find threads on TBI conversions for these, including a way to use two single barrell TBI units, most of which is scroungeable.
While it will make it run better overall, and help with fuel economy, it will run more consistent on the banking.
I don't know if you will be pushing on a track with enough banking to give the carbs fits with the angle or not, but the throttle bodies don't care.
Food for thought.
I did consider EFI but pops objects to it. He has some 5 jug intakes that he wants me to "pick the best one" and use it. Blocking #2 and #4 setting up with Ford 97 carbs to give that 5 jug look without the complication of tuning five carbs. It's an old timers thing I guess. But if that is what it take to make him happy I'll do it.
I like the idea of the GM A833 but he is stuck on T-10. I'm sure his years of racing and setting up racing engines has him convinced that it is the best tool for the job. I know I am asking for opinions and doing what pops wants regardless. Kind of fishing for ideas to bounce off him. It stimulates his mind and lets him know that I am researching this project well. It keeps me on my toes too. Without Guru's like you I would be lost. Can't thank you enough for your input.
Humble Newby
If you have enough carbs to use on the 5 carb setups, you might try progressive linkage with 2 carbs as "primaries" and the other 3 as "secondaries".
If that proves to be too much carb, you could try a pair of 81s as the primaries.
Not that I've thought much on running 5 carbs on a Jimmy before.
It'll look cool regardless of how many you actually use.
A super T-10 might hold with the 5.13 gears (the larger the number back there the easier it is on the trans).
The big thing is the torque of the 302 is a lot like a diesel, it all comes in so muck lower than what people are used to today; it makes it great to drive, but can be exceptionally hard on the rest of the drive train.
Best of luck.
Yep, those darn old timers get set in their ways. Sometimes they just won't listen to us.
Hmmmmm.... i'll chew on that a bit.... thanks for the input!!!
The 302 head (small port) will be disassembled tomorrow and the truck will be moved to the lower lot so that it can get taken apart. I set the head in the hot tank and pray that it will pass mag monday. I plan on blasting it and giving it a thorough pressure test. It's been sitting around a while.
Am I forgetting anything?
Humble newby???
Oh yeah..... can I get color suggestions from you guys??? I need to get paint coming for the block, head and valve cover. Thanks
Humble Newby
Here is a shot of the 270 the last time around in '08. The paint is Duplicolor cast iron. The sheet metal parts were cleaned to bare metal and sprayed with clear. I thought all 302 heads were the same. There are just 4 GMC heads aren't there?
That is a question I dont have the answer to. I was under the impression that there were two types of heads for the 302, small and large ports.(Aside from aftermarket applicaitons) Also, I think the production years were different. Anyway, that is an awesome picture of your engine. Nice looking fentons and offy intake? I see the alternator (no 12 v gen???) What CFM is the Edelbrock Carb? Looks like whatever trucks find their way to you are being taken care of very well!!!
Humble Newby
There are two heads with the old style chamber. The first has small ports the other is the H head with big ports. They used dome pistons. There were two that used flat pistons. One with big ports one with small ports. All 302s used the big port with the flatter chamber shape. The other was used on 270s and maybe 248s. The best comparison I have seen is in Patrick's catalog. It gives casting numbers and measurements. The big ports are good for racing and trucks. The small ports work well on the street. They can be improved.
I kept over heating generators withe the old headers. The carb is a 500cfm. Someday I'll get the twin Zeniths on it. You need a closer look at my trucks. They live outside all year. They have the kind of patina the new guys pay for.
Okay, you have clarified this for me wonderfully. I thought the D shaped combustion chambers were for 302's and the larger combustion chambers (look like a hemi almost) were for 270's. I have a few of each. When I look up the numbers that it what I see. If they are interchangeable which is the better for my application?
Well if you are going to run a half dozen or so carbs go with one of the big port heads. All of those manifolds will have big ports. There can be sealing problems when using a big port manifold on a small port head. That is what I am doing now. The D chamber 302 head will be easier to find pistons for. All of the 228 - 302 heads will bolt up and the round chamber does very well with the right pistons and valves. Man it sounds like your Pops has quite a stash. Do you give guided tours? Beater
I did a tour today with some blokes from the Stove Bolt Page. They found most everything they were looking for. C'mon down. You aren't very far away. Let me know what you are in need of. I can locate it and pull it for you or you can take it off yourself.
Humble Newby
Need? Like most of us here it's want. Really, who needs a 50 year old truck motor? I would like to come that way sometime.
Beater, that's an excellent point about the 5 carb manifolds being for the big port heads.
I would think the D chamber would be slightly better, but if you have a head with the round chamber, work with that (it is a truck after all
).
Have the D Chamber head in the hot tank. Will Mag and Pressure test it tomorrow. Check out the new pic's, yanked her out of the graveyard today. Will hit her with a pressure washer tomorrow after work and start tearing the front clip off. Any thing I need to be wary of??? Hidden screws???
Thanks guys, you've been awesome!!
http://s1185.photobucket.com/home/speakfordadead/index
Try to hit all the bolts and nuts with a good penetrating oil. Some of them will just be easier to break but some may be sheet metal clips with nuts that twist. Glad to see your progress.
Pressure washing really brought out the fact that this truck is just about as cherry as they get. A little bit of rust on the bottom of the doors and a ding and tear in each rear fender.... wow!!! What a resto this is going to be.
Does anyone want to tackle the next questions??
I found a set of balanced Venolia pistons. I researched the job number today and called them. These pistons were ordered in 1984 by my pops. They are 4.080 with a .003 tolerance built into the skirt. Isn't 80 thou a pretty steep cut? Am I risking taking out a lot of life out of the block? What is the best cut for deck height? Can I safely cut .060???? I have balanced 7.000 rods to go with the pistons. With a stock 302 crank will I have enough clearance??? I'm planning on opening up the intakes and exhausts and cutting unleaded fuel seats. Is there a source of aftermarket valve guides? Or will stock guides tolerate a .005 ream??? I will have the valves done to go with the cam, but I need to know how much this little sister needs to breath. I am using a big port head but I am not sure how much bigger I can go. Help oh machinest guru's... help!
California Bill Fisher's 1955 GMC speed manual says it is safe to go to 4.125. At .080 you have .045 left for another bore. They actually made 302 pistons up to 4.1875. That is pushing it. You should try to locate a copy of this little book. It has way more 302 info than the '54 edition of the Chevrolet, GMC, & Buick Speed Manual.
Good books...( as I am reading through a first edition copy of Floyd Clymers "How to hop up chevrolet and gmc engines")
I'll keep saying this till someone does it. We need a new GMC Speed Manual! A lot has been done to these engines since 1955. Chrysler rear seals, Hudson rods, V8 valves, new porting techniques. Builders are using HEI ignition, coil packs, fuel injection, superchargers, turbos and much more. Old sources have disappeared and new ones have turned up. This needs to be done while the guys who have continued to develop these engines can contribute. Beater
Learned many things this week. The Head will not pass Mag... need to send it to Oakland, CA to have the exhaust ports welded. I have lot's of 248 and 270 heads but the other 302 heads are buried in a container that is going to take me a few days to get through. If I don't find more 302 heads by Monday I'm gonna take a road trip.
Got the bed off today... My nephew John wanted to learn how to restore a car. He came down Weds. and already has learned how to take off rusty bolts and today learned how to use a cutting torch. Look at him go.... right on John....!!!!!
new pic's
http://s1185.photobucket.com/home/speakfordadead/index
I'll keep saying this till someone does it. We need a new GMC Speed Manual! A lot has been done to these engines since 1955. Chrysler rear seals, Hudson rods, V8 valves, new porting techniques. Builders are using HEI ignition, coil packs, fuel injection, superchargers, turbos and much more. Old sources have disappeared and new ones have turned up. This needs to be done while the guys who have continued to develop these engines can contribute. Beater
seems to me the above author has good writing skills + hand on tech know how on the jimmy....
Two Cheers for Beater to write a new book!!!
You guys know me. I'm a BSer and a poop stirrer not someone who actually gets stuff done. Besides I don't know near enough about the subject. Thats why I want a book.
Beater
Sorry to distract on the thread...
Beater you under estimate yourself
1) you know how to write
2) you have worked on the jimmy so you no stranger to the engine
3) you know a lot of folks who have these
4) you drive a Mac which the publishers prefer (why I don't know but they do)
5) you know how to research material - look where you started with EFI from 0 to being dangerous enough to almost getting the thing running last year.
I can't think of another inliner better suited for the job. Sure you may not have all the tech knowledge - goto talk to Jerry W.
Good job to take on the research part next winter before the folks that have the tech are sadly no longer available to ask. ITS your time to shine. Go do it.
More pics and more progress. Went container diving Friday and found some very interesting doo-dads. Five jug intake, full race cam, (which will go to the cam doctor to verify) and many other little heartstopping accessories. Straight eight buick clifford intake. Two more five jugs, nicson big port with three Zeniths. Wow....
Heart stopper....
Not to mention that I am glad I didn't send off the head, Pops said there were more in the honey hole and I stopped looking after I found two big port 302 heads. Pristine condition. AWESOME!!!
Do you live at the end of the rainbow? Where are the pictures of these treasures? Maybe you should just open a GMC museum. Pops is a pack rat with an agenda!
Most of us have to search out these parts and hope we can afford them. Thanks to your dad you have to choose which ones not to use. So glad he saved them!
http://s1185.photobucket.com/home/speakfordadead/indexBeater.... it's definately a honey pot, but the shear manpower it takes to get to this stuff is no laughing matter. In order to get back into this container (it's in a c-30 cube that is listing heavily to starboard and is very unsafe at this point, mostly because we have changed the balance point moving all this stuff)I am going to have to rig some sort of stabilizing system and jack the container hard to port for safety reasons. A stack of quick change rearends and a pile of aluminum flywheels taller than me will have to be moved in order to complete the discovery process. The flathead intakes were incredible. Some very rare birds. Hopefully by this weekend we will have this project well underway and I promise to photo as much as I can to keep you all drooling. I'd really like to sell this stuff to people who will use it. I'm not interested in passing it on to swap meet guys who just want to make a buck. This stuff has been away from daylight so long that it deserves to be run.....
JMHO
That is a noble goal. It is tough to find the guys who want it to use it. I've been fooled a few times by guys who told me they were building cars they were going to keep and drive only to watch them use my gifts to make a profit and move on to the next sucker. But you can't take it with you........, can you?
No, you can't take it with you. Pop's is learning that. It was his sick way of leaving me an inheritance. Thanks Pops, I'm having a blast!!!!
My kids won't feel that way. Most of what I have is crap.
Update on the Jimmy project...
The cam was ordered yesterday. The profile is exciting and all Charles could say was "wow" and 'Hmmm". The profile is based on the following factors...
4.080 bore
4.00 stroke
Big port "D" chamber head, slightly ported with light flow work
Buick straight eight rockers at 1.75 lift (stamped not cast)
Stock Milk jugs
Howard intake with five 97 SP topped Strombergs.
After the Crank gets back from grinding it will go for balancing with a 270 "hsrmonic balancer" rods and pistons as well as the totally coolio Schiefer aluminum flywheel I uncovered out of a stack of about 30. My favorite fab guy is removing the Chevy crank pattern and boring the flywheel for the 270 crank that will go into the 302.
This has been the most fun I have had in years. Pop's doodads are cool. And to think that when I first got here the junk guys were just saying that all this stuff was "crap" and needed to be hauled off. They should be ashamed of themselves!!!!
Headlines.... Stupid Newby Makes Gargantuan Mistake!!!!
So I order the Cam right?? Go out to the #5 trailer and locate the Buick rocker shaft. I tear it down and let the parts sit overnight in the hot tank. Run them through the pressure washer and get really excited. Some new bushings and they will be dandy.
Grab the 228 rocker shaft and start sliding on the buick rockers. Just for Mock up mind you, no bushings yet. Make a complete donkey out of myself after i bolt it down. The rockers are too short and won't hit the valves correctly. Gotta call Charles and have him hold up on the cam.
This could get ugly...... stay tuned...
P.S.
Does anyone know of aftermarket rocker arms for the 302 heads? I see alot about cams and valves in the search forums stuff but no one talks about 302 rocker assemblies....
HAYELP!!!!!
I was able to obtain custom built rocker arms from Harlan Sharp for my uber rare crossflow head. I supplied them with blueprints. They selected an in-house aluminum extrusion and machined them to match my particular engine geometry. I would recommend ordering more than one set if possible to spread out their (your) R&D costs over more parts.
The later stock stamped steel/welded rockers are pretty strong and served very well. They are probably not the weakest link. Beater
Frenchtown flyer...
wow.... nice (kn)rockers.... I'm willing to pay for R&D if it will benefit others.... have several heads... hmmm... maybe I could market them... hmmmm
thanks for the suggestion...
P.S. If you ever need another cross flow head I can hook you up..
I was going through some old stuff and found this. How is it coming?
Yeah.... how goes it beater??? check out the post in bench racing.....
I saw that post before this one. Sorry about your dad. We went to Ventura to visit my oldest son for his 29th birthday. Friday we worked on his Harley and Sunday we worked on his El Camino. I'm the Pops here and I love it. I'm sure your Pops felt as I do. Beater
Help your kids understand what you are doing and why. What your goals are and what you want to do with your projects when you are done. I spent the last year of dad's life taking notes. It was nice to be able to share that information with my family. They are all on board.
Do what you can, what feels good to you while respecting your Pop's plans, but don't get bogged down in his dreams. He had a shot at it and did what he could. Some of us gather projects and dreams enough to fill several lifetimes. Believe me we don't expect our loved ones to to spend their lives putting together the pieces we piled up. Pick some really cool stuff that was special to him and assemble it in a way that would make you both smile. That's what I'd want my boys to do. If the rest of it just got back to folks who valued it I'd be happy. That alone will be a major project for you. You have some major cool stuff let it make you happy. Sometimes I don't know if I own the junk or if the junk owns me, but it just sits there and I'm the one who frets.
Why I don't have near that much of a collection, I have enough that my daughters have asked me to start cataloging and estimating value. Sounds morbid I know and I hope to hang around
for another 10-15 years, but it does make sense to do that.