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Hello All,
First - thank you for all of the knowledge I have gained by visiting and reading the wealth of knowledge posted here.

I am using a 60 Bel Air w/ a 235 to teach my 17 year old son the basics. It's been great so far. This car is his daily driver. Following the guidelines set forth here we have rebuilt it, added cool Hi Po stuff from Tom Langdon,Clifford and Patricks.
QUESTION - Having had the machine shop follow the instructions to convert my engine for full flow oil filtration has me concerned about a possible oil fire. The oil lines leading to the filter are going to be about a fingers thickness away from the Clifford Headers. Do I need to worry? Should I use some kind of special lines?
Their is not any room left on the engine so I will have to mount the filter on the firewall or the fender.
We already had to abandon the Lokar cable linkage to the Holley 4 barrel because the heat from the headers kept making the cable fray apart. We are now using Mr. Langdons solid linkage.
Thanks for any advise you all can offer,
Fabian.

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I'd use the braided steel covered lines, check with a speed shop or Jegs etc about heat resistance. You could also wrap the exhaust header with a heat restricting wrap.
Best of luck


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I would go with HiTork's advice, use good lines and use heat shielding sleeves where they need it.

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Greetings . . .

If your heart is not set on the Beehive type under hood oil filter - you could go with a 'relocation' kit:
Relo Kit from JC Whitney I
Relocation Kit from JC Whitney II

This would allow you to rig your fittings so that the oil lines stay close to the block (90 degree elbows), routing them down underneath to the frame. With the relo block mounted down there you could use spin-on type filters - and avoid oil change mess under the hood.

I've seen this type of set up on off road and towing vehicles that need oil coolers. They even make relo blocks that take two filters - further increasing the amount oil in the system.

regards,
Keith


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I'm not going to do the beehive as much as I would like to just because the guys at Patricks were so helpful. I don't know if it would work well bolted to the Clifford intake anyway. I was looking at the Trans Dapt units suggested on Deves website for about $40.00 to $50.00. The Clifford headers hug the engine so closely though their really is not a whole lot of room for lines.
The car as it is now:
60 Chevy Bel Air
235
Clifford Intake & Exhaust
Holly 390
Patricks complete rebuild kit 20 over pistons
3/4 solid lift aggressive cam.
Tom Langdons solid carb linkage
3 speed standard trans w/ Hurst classic shifter.
New everything else...
Thanks,
Fabian.

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Fabian -

I have my Beehive oil filter mounted on the fire wall of my 37 truck. My 261 is not a full flow engine, but still I had to run oil lines from the engine side to the filter. I used solid steel lines from the block out away from my headers and than switched to braided lines on to the filter. The solid lines give me the protection I need at the headers and then by switching to the hose I got the flexibility I still needed.

It might be a consideration for you.

Joe \:\)

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Beehives are for bypass oiling. You need to run the spin-on relocation type kits with the 1/2" NPT size fittings.
As for the header issue, you should be able to get some pipe nipples, elbows,etc... at the hardware store that would be long enough to get you past the header tube, then connect your flexible lines.
running the lines through the inner fender, and mounting the filter on the side of the frame might work also, that way you reduce the oil pressure lag time. Just a suggestion... and make sure it clears the tire when turning!

With that camshaft, I have to ask what are you using for rearend gears?


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Dear Fabian;

If you had ever seen how destructive an oil fire is, you would never consider the filter on that engine. They are massive and istantainous when they occur. Unless you have a 'fire bottle' under the hood there's no protection, NONE. You can't get to it fast enough from inside the vehicle.

We have discussed this here many times.

When I worked in 'truck stops' in the 60s I saw a couple on 261s, which had one in the later years, from the factory.

It can be done (with "elbos & braided lines) as Brian points out, but ONLY on some models. This requires the 'spin on' adapter mounting to the block, just to the rear of the generator.

You can't mount it on the frame, wheelhouse or firewall as the lines flex constantly.

This can be done on 1937-48 models and those where the front engine mount is forward of the generator (1955-57 cars maybe). Patrick's only does trucks of the 40s & 50s which mount in front of the block behind the crank pulley.

I can't recall how it mounts in a 60 Bell Air.

YOU have to weigh the risks here. Not worth it at all, with todays commercial SAE 30 oil. No matter how you do it, both oil lines run to close to a 1,000 degree heat source.

FYI:

The 'beehive' (by-pass) filters were low pressure units for the early engines (only) and rarely caught fire because they only filtered about 20% of the oil @ 15#.

The 'full flow' oil filter didn't really come out (Chevy 6) till 1963 and It's on the right side away from the exhaust system.

Good luck. \:\)


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Thank you all for the good advise. I think I will do a combo of solid plumbing past the headers and flexible lines towards the spin on oil filter set up.

Gearhead -
I have a need for the right rear end. Currently the car has a completely gone through rear end with 4:11 gears. I am looking for a better ratio. What do you suggest?
Fabian.

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The heat shielding wrap can be obtained from a Welding Supply Shop.


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Good Idea Walt.
Thank. I will look around this week and see what I can find. My goal is to put the motor and trans back in next weekend.
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Glad to see your using a filter. Try to get the spin-on adapter for the Ford filter as you will want to be able to use a filter with a bypass built into it. Chevy filters don't have this. Fram does make a special line of performance filters with a bypass built in, I think HP-4 would be the one for a Chevy, just in case you get an adapter for the Chevy filter instead of the Ford. Whether you mount it to the frame, inner fender well, or firewall make sure there is a section of flexible hose. Only when mounting it to the engine can you use completely solid lines.

As for the rearend, the f298 camshaft isn't going to like that 3spd because no matter what you use, it is going to be a compromise due to the 2.95 first gear and no overdrive. To get out of the hole you would want a 3:70 or higher ratio, which will hurt your top crusing speed because you don't have any overdrive. Use a 3:36 or 3:56 to get the crusing speed back, and it will be a dog at the bottom end. Ideally, a T5 with a 3.50 first gear and a 3:70 would be my recommendation, but the 4:11 could be used also. Just get the T5 in there and try it. Then adjust the rearend gear later if you feel like it.


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Gearhead,
Thank you. I am still in the "confused " catagory. The T 5 option sounds good. I guess I need to figure out which version is right for a 60 Bel Air application. I did a lot of reading yesterday - The T-5 Pages, and it looks like shifter location is a big issue I need to figure out. I already have a Hurst floor shifter attached to the exisiting 3 speed so the "hole" is there. No w I need to measure I guess.
Fabian.

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F;

They (Chevrolet) made a 3 speed with OD in that era which will 'bolt in'. If you have the long tailshaft, the driveshaft should fit too W/O modificaton(s).

There's a little electrical and a cable to hook up, but It's not difficult.

The hole and your Hurst shifter stay in the same position too. You may need to grind a little off the mounting bracket as It's close to the solenoid.

All the gear ratios your have now stay the same, except for the OD which is a 28% reduction. This would have your engine running -280 RPM per 1,000, or about 2,160 @ 60 MPH with 28" tires and the rear end you currently have.

Hope this helps. \:\)


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John,
That sounds easier and cheaper too. I believe I already know where to get the overdrive unit you are talking about. I am sure my 17 year old son would love the big tires too. Right now the tires are 15" Radial T/A's
Fabian.

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The tires are 28" outside diameter.
You'll need to check a tire chart to tell what you have now.

A 670X15 or 750X14 is 28" in diameter.
Bias ply generally work better for the early (pre 1970) cars & trucks, but many use 'radials' W/O problems.

If your happy with what you have, then there's no need to change.

Happy trails. \:\)


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You can go with a 3spdOD if you want (same gearing as the 3spd), but the shift from 2nd into 3rd is such a drop that it will be a bit of a dog. That's why the T5 is the better overall choice. A 4spd isn't really much better than the 3spd, as they usually have an even lower (like 2:21 or 2:56) first gear and still no overdrive.
I have a chart at home, but working from memory, a S10 T5 from a 4.3V6 should have the 3.50 first gear, and like all S10's the shifter is in the right spot. One from an Astro van would work also. Get one from '87 or older as it will have a mechanical speedometer.

Just get it all put back together and get the bugs out of it before you get too worried about changing everything. Decide what you like and dislike about the setup you have, then get back to us.


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Garhead,
Will do.... My membership is in the mail.
Thank you,
Fabian.

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Fabian, I used the combination of the stock 3-speed overdrive for many years in a pickup with a 3.90 rear end. I connected the solenoid so I could operate it in every gear unlike the factory. Essentially it made it into a 6 speed. This is not generally known or recommended to use a first over but when sometime driving beside another car I would do it just to mess with their mind. Going thru 6 speeds in the 70's was a gas. However using 2nd over was great for climbing in the mountains and having the 3rd over for crusing was great.
I can't remember how to do it but a 60's GM OD unit could be made to fit any Saginaw 4-Speed unit. This would give you 8 speeds. The Vega had a 3.10 1st gear it would almost unstallable from a light. A buddy put one of these in a column shift car and used the tree for all 4 forward gears and had a small lever by the seat front for reverse...Good luck


216.158 MPH 12-Port 302 GMC on 70% 171.0 MPH 302 stock head on gasoline 7 years later
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I don`t trust any rubber lines - braided or not.
Did everything with metal tubing - peace of mind.

Frank



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Dear Frank;

Excellent job!! \:D
That's what I've been talking about for years.

The filter is far enough away, so the heat source is NOT a factor. The lines are stable W/O the chance of vibration(s) causing a leak to fuel a fire, explosion or both.

Good photo too. \:\)

On some Chevrolet cars it can't be done, due to the engine mount location. This is why I protest It's use.

It's not an issue of; "to filter oil or not to filter". It's the fact that saftey issues FAR outweigh the filtered oil concerns.


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Frank,
Thats awesome,
Exactly what I am looking for. That location and angle will work in my 60 Bel Air as well. Myson and I dropped the motor in last night and concluded that was the best spot. What cannister adapter did you use?
What did you use for a shifter for that trans?
i found a 3 speed overdrive unit ready to go not too far from me here in Texas for $450.00 complete. Does that sound fair?
Fabian.

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Here is a closer look:

http://img285.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bild017hf9.jpg

This is not an adaptor full flow solutuion.

The filter is an Frantz Toilet Paper Filter, but you can use any standard bypass housing here as long it is leakproof enough to handle the horizontal mounting.

On the downside is, that you have to loosen the generator and swing it down to change the filter.

If you want an full flow with an modern filter cardridge you can use any NAPA filter relocation kit, but dump the rubber hoses and use metal lines.

The tranny is an 1959 OD 3Speed "3 on the Tree" shifter.

Go for the OD you will love it (but an open driveline is needed)

Frank


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The tranny I located is in a 1959 Bel Air. I currently have a Hurst floor shifter to my exisitng 3 speed in my 1960 Bel air now. I am leaning to get it just do not want to get ripped off. $450.00 sounded a little high.
Thanks,
Fabian

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When converting a GMC to full flow you can keep the side fittings down to 1 for clearance if you put the oil back in at the front of the gallery at the front of the block. Bob Corbett does this; you can see it Aug 06 12Port news. Using an external oil pump and the front filling eliminates any side fittings..Good Luck. Nice TP filter..C-Dan. I use one to clean my parts washer fluid


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F;

It depends on the condition of the transmission. I get $150.00 for mine (used), then they need to be "gone through" so that's more money & time.

$450 is okay if It's a rebuilt one with a guarentee from a Transmission Shop, or your getting all the electrical, cable and other goodies with it etc.

I would follow Bryan's advice. "Put is all together & see how you like it first."

There's always time to go shopping. \:\) You might find a 'deal' on a T-5 somewhere.

PS: Patrick's "spin on" is mounted like Frank's.


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Fabian,
the filter adapter to use can be found at www.jegs.com either part # 771-1791 or 771-1211. There are others also.

Just remember, Solid lines are fine WHEN THE FILTER IS MOUNTED TO THE ENGINE. Otherwise a flexible section is required. When you use the proper hoses and fittings, you will not have any problems. The hoses that are sold in the kits are good to at least 300 psi. I've used these for years without problems. Not having them RIGHT NEXT TO the header should be obvious...

3spdOD's usually go for $100-200 used and in unknown condition. That's without all of the periferal stuff. T5's in good working order can be found for less than $450, even on Ebay. Just something to consider, at least when negotiating a price...

Nobody makes a floor shifter for the 3spdOD, at least not since the 60's. Your Hurst 3spd floor shifter can be modified to work though. It will need to be moved over about 2" so it will clear the solenoid, and the shift rods will need some serious re-bending, but it will work. I've done it before. I've used all of the above trannies at on time or another in my '53 truck.
Or you can go back to a column shift...


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Pop open the hood of most any US vehicle made in the last 40 years and check out the power steering hoses.On V-8's especially,the hoses are right in front of the exhaust manifold on either side of the engine.The pressure on the hi side is way more than engine oil pump pressure.Are there fires caused by power steering hose leaks?Yes,I've seen a few,but considering the 10's of millions of vehicles on the road with old cracked hoses,it's not all that common.
Some newer vehicles use remote filters with hoses,4x4 Blazers and S10's for sure as do many heavy duty trucks.And although very rare,hard lines can fracture from the constant cycling of the oil pump pressure and engine vibrations.
Hoses are a maintenance issue,they don't last forever,using quality hoses,ie,braided type brand names and replacing them every 5 years or so should keep the fires to a minimum,lol.


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Dear Tony;

The hoses used on the factory (full flow) filers were NOT the strenth or quality of PS hoses, then or now and this is why they caught fire.

The (almost instant) devistation caused is beyond description and no laughing matter.

The 4X4 (remote) kits you mention are not mounted anywhere near a 1,000 degree heat source(s). If you doubt any of this, just go to a SCORE event or visit your local Fire Dept..


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I have my old chevy daily driver now for 11 years and can't believe in what condition I used to drive it.
I had leaky bypass oil canisters and carbs drip on the exhaust pipe and engine block for many years. Never enough to cause even smoke.
Finally starting in 2002 I learned from forums like this how to fix, tune and rod my engine.

Have personally witnessed 1 engine fire in my entire life.
Real life seems nothing like the movies where a bullet, a cigarette or a crash causes massive explosions.
It's more like this crazy guy I knew who drove a poorly built high performance 350 which needed 3 quarts of oil and 10 gal of fuel every 10 miles.
Leaking and smoking like hell - amazingly he never turned into a speeding fireball, making the news.

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RR;

The by-pass filters filtered only about 28% (less that one third) of the engine's oil @ 15 PSI. They were not much of a hazard under those conditions.

The unit were discussing filters 100% of engine oil, 30-40 PSI @ 180+/- degrees F. This was routed next to an exhaust manifold where all 6 cylinders fed into @ 1,000 degrees +/-.

As you can see, this is a totally different situation.

What the motion picture industry portrays in TV & film is done with professional pyrotechnics and has no bearing on our disscussion.

Thanks for your imput and I'm glad you never had bad luck with your leaks. \:\)


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Gearhead,
All good advise. I ordered the exact part number you suggested as an oil filter kit.

This particular 3 spd. OD does come with all linkage, wire harness and everything to convert back to column shifting for $450.00. However the condition is unknown and I have always had a problem in this car column shifting from 2nd to 3rd. That is why we ended up going to a floor shifter.
Fabian.

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Get it then.

Having it orginal makes it easier to sell later.

You guys can build a "full race" Hot Rod later if you like. \:\)


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I ran my late 235 with 30-40 PSI and the bypass filter mounted on the intake manifold with the standard oil hoses every day. No leaks - no worries.

Next spring I will put a full-flow 261 into a 47 chevy.
For oil filtering I want to use copper tubing and mount a modern spin-on filter directly on the engine block behind the generator.
Thanks gearhead for the ford-bypass-valve-filter tip.

Anybody knows where the original filter on a 261 1961 was mounted?

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RR;

It was mounted on the firewall and the left wheelhouse, depending on what part of the country it was made. The Blazer where it was an option had it on the intake manifold (front) I've been told.

Patrick's has a good setup for his, which will work on your 47 car.

On the block is the safe way, good luck. \:\)


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Factory canister filter setups (both bypass and full flow) were mounted to the intake manifold. If you need a picture, tell us, and I or someone else can try to post one.

Full flow does not equal 100% filtration. There is a pressure drop accross the filter. The smaller the filter the higher that drop is, for example. This is why Chevy used a bypass valve in the original filter heads on 59-62 261's and in the block on V8's. Ford used the bypass as part of the filter. It's to keep from starving the motor of oil that can't get through the filter fast enough.
When you go to one of these spin-on adapters, like I listed above, on a full flowed 235/261 or GMC, you need to realize that you don't have any way to bypass the filter anymore. That's why you go with the Ford filter, to get that bypass ability back.

The shifting issue is common to column shifters. It's probably a worn bushing or adjustment. Have you looked at a shop manual?

Take the side cover off the tranny and take a look. Usually, if they look good, they are good, but obviously there is no guaranty. I guess it's your call. About all I can say is that it would be the easiest solution, as it will give you some of your top speed back without having to do alot of other changes to the car. The drop from 2nd to 3rd shouldn't be too bad with a 4:11. If the 3spd works good enough through the gears for your tastes, then the 3spdOD will be also.

I like my T5 a whole lot better, though...


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Great explanation - Thank you.
So the bypass valve kicks in when pressure inside the filter gets too high or the filter needs replacement - very cool.
Gonna be a whole new experience to have a modern style oil filter.

I'm sometimes thinking of removing the bypass on the 235, because I change oil rather frequently anyways.
But then again, any filter is better than no filter at all.
And I know some big rigs today use both types of filters for different size particles.

The 261 is still in pieces and I don't know yet if the canister and valve is still in good shape and reusable.
I rather stay with the original and mount it on the engine block or intake. Then I still have to find out what modern fram part# will fit.

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No problem.
One other thing concerning the '59-62 261's, these have a pin down near where the front hose hooks into the block. If this pin is "in", then you need to worry about a bypass, if it is "out", then it is in bypass mode and you don't really need the extra bypass in the filter.
Having the pin in and an external bypass is the prefered way to go.

There's alot of opinions about using a bypass filter or leaving it off. My opinion is to use it as long as you have enough oil pressure to support it. Some filtering is better than none, especially since detergent oils are intended to work in conjuction with a filter. If the engine is tired, blocking it off to get an extra 5-10 psi at the bearings would be acceptable in my opinion. It's a debate that has no end...


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all the 261's i have seen or owned had them mounted on the intake.

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Looks like Chevy didn't use the bypass-pin starting with the 61 cast any longer...

[img]http://www.siegmundguitars.com/images/engine/close-up[/img]

I checked my 60 truck shop manual and a chapter (8-6) and picture does show the pin and also the original filter position.
It suggests using a jumper line if the filter and lines are removed and never to plug the out and inlets, but doesn't explain the pin and it's purpose anywhere I could find.
Seems a little odd with the otherwise very detailed manuals of that time.

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