Inliners International Forums General Discussion Vortec 4200

I've been on that list & on DIYEFI for a long time; right now I'm going with the DFI in order to have several features that can't be programmed into the stock (or mod'd) PCM.

Yes- I've looked into it & have an engine / trans combo. There is already someone who has done the swap. GM itself even put the 3.5 into an old PU. I'll put the pics on my server & post them...

If one buys the engine / trans combo along with the Harness & ECM > is there a 'lock-out' device that blocks function ?

Do you mean that the PCM will be locked out because it's not in a Trailblazer or Envoy, etc? No- It can be 'tricked' or completely reflashed.

The jury is still out on that, my buddy that works at GM seems to think that the BCM (body comtrol module) is where the security system stuff is operated from, passlock/passkey whichever it is. He seems to think that if that isn't there, we only need to supply the PCM (powertrain control module, mounts to the engine)with voltage (on the correct pin of course) with a regular key switch and it will run. I was talking to Westers earlier last week, they reported that they could turn off certain codes in the PCM and remove the transmission codes (for manual or non-electronic transmissions). I might try wiring up my engine this week some time and see if it will start. -Chuck

we've managed to get the air meter to work, the flyby wire throttle and the starter to crank. The problem is the injectors. They use a switched ground through the passlock system. Get around that and we may have a running engine.

I'm new to the list, hi all.

I work for a body shop, so I was able to buy a wrecked 2004 envoy with 38k miles for $790. Man, does it pay to work where I do... The airbags didn't blow and are worth almost half of what i have into, so taht's cool. Anyway, onto the point.

I will be pulling the engine soon and will be attempting to get it running on some sort of fabricated rolling stand. Has anyone come up with a comprehensive list of what needs to happen to get this thing running? i have the whole car, so my plan thus far is to take everything out and start taking stuff off as i discover i dont need it. Also, is there any word on how stout the rear end is or how to tell what gearing it has?

one more thing, 10:1 is a bit stout for boost, what pistons did taht dude in the nova use? oddly enough, mine will be going into a 74 nova that i intend to be a road racer.

one more thing, 10:1 is a bit stout for boost, what pistons did taht dude in the nova use? oddly enough, mine will be going into a 74 nova that i intend to be a road racer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Street Road Racer or Sanctioned Road Racer > ?

If this is your Street car > run a single Turbo with 8lbs. Boost & Premium Fuel.

The high Static compression ration > which if had an Iron Cyl. Head would be 9.to1 since Alum. allows one more Comp Ratio Point > will give you snap out of corners and a bit more controllability in the snakes.

If you plan for a Turbo Blown Race engine, plan on Intercooler [a study to find an efficient one ] Ross or Venolia Turbo Pistons & Pins & Teflon Buttons > Forged Rods 2mm shorter than stock >
include oil squirter holes to spray cyl. bores and ones for the bottom of the pistons > zero gap ring pak > Coatings for pistons and all bearings surfaces > a Boost Controller etc. > .

Might want to switch to a 2005 MAF system too.

Personally, a Turbo from: Jaime@mjmturbos.com
with a nice Turbo header & 5 to 8lbs Boost on factory parts is the way to go.

I heard from a guy at Self Racing that he sleeved the block & used custom pistons (a call to Darton confirmed this). What bore size he went with, I'm not sure. The stocker is pretty small at 93mm, or 3.66". I'm going to use lower compression pistons & let the boost do the work.

Sorry- I don't have a list. I'm trying to piece together what I can from the guys who've done it.

I just got the theft deterrent schematics last night. It appears that there is class 2 serial communication between the BCM and the PCM. So the only thing holding us back from a "stand alone" setup is one wire to the body control module and it's associated 80 wires that go to various parts of the body. Unless Westers can program the BCM out of the equation, us swappers are going to have to have that to be able to run the engine with the factory PCM. We will also need the keyswitch and key out of whatever vehicle the engine comes out of since it's programmed to the BCM.

Man, you guys are quick at responding around here, thanks.

5-8lbs of boost on mostly stock stuff was exactly what i was hoping to hear. I've never really built anything to corner and the car will be my daily driver, so I'm not even sure what class I even intend to race in if at all.

I don't mind nobody having any sort of list, because that means I'm actually on a leading edge for once, hehe. I'll do what I can to help and not just suck info.

About the BCM stuff... I have access to the Snap-On ShopKey software, so let me know what I can do to help with that. Also, the friend that has that also sells something-tronix diagnostic equipment, so he has all the CM-reading stuff i could need. Is programming the PCM to not need the BCM a hacking sort of deal or a dealer+ level scantool issue? If its the latter, I've got it covered. What he doesn't carry around in his truck he can go use at wherever he sold it to.

Like I said, I want to help, but this is my first swap like this. I have a BS in CS but no hacking skills, fyi. Let me know what I can do

mogofosho... I'd suspect the programming to be a "hacking" sort of thing, if it can even be done. GM engineers put this particular bit of electronics in the Trailblazer so it wouldn't be stolen. If there were an easy way around the security system, it wouldn't be very secure . The two computers communicate with serial data (think scan tool on the OBD2 port, but a different protocol), so it's not like we can just hook that one wire up to +/- 12V and have it work, which is a bummer. There may be a way to make a module that sends the PCM the proper serial data for start up. We would need to know what it expects to receive that tells it to allow a start and run condition. Or if Westers is deep enough in the PCM coding, they may be able to "flick some switches" to allow it to work w/o the BCM. -Chuck

hmm... since I have the whole car, I think I'm going to drag the whole wiring harness out of it and see if I can get it going with everything intact. I dont really care if i have to find a place to put the BCM and all the extra wiring, as long as the thing runs. I even have teh ign sw, so I might be good to go for now. It's only going into my nova, so it might even be cool to just route the whole new wiring harness where it all goes (lights, etc) in it. I can then work on cleaning out the stuff I don't need. I would think that the more of the envoy I put in the nova, the better I am as far as the short term goal of getting it moving the car.

I've never done any reverse engineering, has anyone asked the guys on the diy-efi list? I'm a programmer, but those guys are way over my head a lot of the time. Maybe someone can suggest a way for me to monitor the BCM-PCM data line when/if I get it going to see what it sends?

Monitoring the BCM-PCM dataline I can't help with, other than telling you it's a yellow wire,pin 58 on C1 (the blue one) of the PCM harness connector. There's also serial data sent from the security module in the instrument cluster, the drivers door module, and the ignition lock. I'm trying to get a hold of the schematics for the data link communications connector and see where all this stuff goes. You will probably need all those "modules" plugged in with their corresponding wiring to get it to even start. You will also need the gas pedal assembly with it's "pedal postion sensor" to be able to operate the throttle. I'm hoping someone can crack the need for the BCM, since that would save a ton of wiring and sensors. -Chuck

Hi there, redirected here from recent Diy_Efi posting... Maybe I can help? maybe not, but here goes...
One of the things I've seen done is to get all of the proper inputs and handshaked signals ONCE, (so it starts) then set a DTC into the BCM (such as a B2945 for an open/short in the passlock sensor) As long as this DTC failed AFTER a succesful start, then the BCM will continue to send the fuel enable signal regardless of passlock sensor input. AND since this DTC is stored in non-volatile RAM in the BCM, tehnically you can even disconnect the battery and the DTC will STILL be present - keeping the engine starting! Of course you will need to wire in the BCM with the minimum of wiring (B+, GND, passlock sensor the of course Class 2 data spliced to PCM) THEN using the orig ign key cylinder (even just the whole TrailBlazer column sitting on the seats) jumpered temporarily to the correct circuits, get it to start, disconnnect the passlock sensor creating the open (setting the DTC B2945) and from then on the BCM will always send the fuel enable signal.

This all assumes the original ECM/PCM AND BCM is available of course, otherwise you will need to perform a Theft Deterrant relearn using a TECH2 and TIS (not neccessarily from a dealership, but very likely as few shops have service programming capability)You will also require a valid VIN from one of the TrailBlazer/Envoys.
PLEASE NOTE- This TD RELEARN will likely NOT be required if the BCM and ECM/PCM were taken from the exact same vehicle.

There MAY be one other solution with respect to providing the Passlock sensor input itself.(but this would STILL require a BCM be wired in) If you try reasearching some of the remote start systems out there- as the Passlock sensor is really just a pair or precise resistors, those resistors (and values) are often part of an remote start installation as it allows the vehicle to start/run without the keys in the ignition. So those details are "out there" however my own personal experience in these aftermarket remote start systems is quite limited.

Good Luck and hope this helps your efforts
Regards
WopOnTour

hehe, looks like between the two of you, my question has been answered. I can certainly deal with just having the BCM and not all of the supporting wiring and modules. I haven't checked, but i think my envoy has the adjustable pedals, so I would probably want them in the nova anyway.

As an update to what I have done, yesterday I got the front end all pulled away from the engine in preparation to get it started. I then discovered that the car thinks it is still in drive. Not surprising, but it wasn't the shifter. Since I didn't know where the switch was, I opted to pull the shifter assy out first but it looks like the switch is on the tranny. Either that or there is something wrong with the switch on the shifter. I'll look at that today. After reading the above post, I think I'll get it all running in the car and then have my diagnostic buddy set the code you suggest.

I wonder if it's possible to program the DTC into the BCM instead of hooking everything up and tripping the code. It sure would be nice not to have to buy the BCM and corresponding hardware to wire it up once and then remove what's not needed once the code is set.
WopOnTour... do you know if anyone has rewritten or changed the code in the PCM to "not look" for the BCM "permission to start", or just delete BCM input altogether? That would be the best solution for us swappers wanting a stand alone configuration. -Chuck

"Westers Garage:
May be able to use the ECM from a 3800 Camaro or Firebird to run the IFI and Ignition. But not the cam phasing. They are also triing to hack the stock 4200 ECM to get my engine to run.

http://westers_garage.eidnet.org/scprice.htm

Dave Kelton (Dr. K.)
Has access to software & may be able to crack the stock ECM. I sent him my VIN and he's working on it now.

256-543-7165

Squire Inc:
They can clean up your harness and defeat the VATS.

479-243-9115

Speartech:
John Spears has a lot of experience with GM EFI including the 4200. His shop did some programing work on the 4200 for GM and he had them running on a test stand with the stock computer! (see photo's on his website). However, GM took all the stuff back when the project was completed. Maybe if enough of us ask, he'll do some work writing a program so our 4200s can run stand-alone.

http://www.speartech.com"


Try these again, as they might have made some progress ?

milnersXcoupe... I was just re-reading the first 2 pages of this thread and thinking the same thing. Decided to send off a few e-mails to check on this for progress. I received an e-mail response from Lyndon at Westers. He said by mid november they hope to be able to release programming for the factory PCM to eliminate the BCM, ABS, EBCM, etc. no passkey involved. So we just have to be patient a little longer. I'm excited. -Chuck

got the envoy to turn over today, but not until after i physically turned the crank with a ratchet. seems it was locked somehow. anyway, after i did taht, some stuff buzzed and clicked under the hood and it would turn over. unfortunately, the booster pack was then too dead to start it. guess I'll try again tomorrow.

an I6 vette is a bit wierd... so I dig it. my nova should be pretty light with a 'glass front clip and the ol' 4200 up front. any idea what kind of weight savings I'll see versus a SBC with a th350?

I've notice that the word 'envoy' contains 'n', 'o', 'v', and another 'v'(from another emblem on the car, which upsidedown is almost an 'a') that might have to become 'nova' on the car when its done.

did the guys at wester's say they would notify you when they were done with it?

I was told I was on the notify list. I'll be sure to post when I get notified. Now I have to get to work getting stuff in order so I can start this thing. Have to fab a fuel tank, get a pump and run lines, pedal position sensor, ALDL port and wiring. Just hope I'm not outta money when it's ready. -Chuck

I'm having some trouble getting the envoy to start. It was a rollover, so I figured part of the cranking problem might be oil in the cylinders. so, I pulled all the plugs out and cranked it over a few times. wow, it coated much of the front end with oil. so, I figure all is well and I reassemble it. Upon doing so, the same thing happens. it turns over for a while and then stops. it is very difficult to turn over with a ratchet at this point. I have to say, I'm a little worried that something seriously bad has happened... any ideas?

ataac_flat04 - I bet I am, but I sure hope I'm not still working on getting this thing running by the time they finish that I'm not exactly patient

mogofosho... you probably still have some oil left in the cylinders. I'd pull the plugs again and keep cranking for quite a while. Might squirt some solvent down each cylinder to thin the oil a bit to help evacuate it from the chamber. Or you could try vacuuming it out. -Chuck

looks like i killed the starter trying to start it with oil in it. I work for a body shop, so my cost on that from GM is $220, but there is also a place in town here that rebuilds them. It may very well be worth my money to have them take a look at it. anyway, I'm hung up until I get that fixed.

I found out some important info about the bcm/pcm antitheft stuff. Apparently, there is indeed a serial connection between the two, but when the bcm thinks that it has been stolen all it does is kill the fuel pump. make the fuel pump go without the bcm and you're good.

Come late spring next year ( best estimate now) megasquirt 2 (MS2) with the addon router board will free us from the GM electronics.

The MS2 exists now, the router board will allow use to do coil on plug ignition and sequential fuel injector control, other features should allow control over the cam phasing.

Stay tuned, the router board development is well underway.

I'm thinking about making up individual throttle systems for the chev/GM inline 6 4200,
but it would also apply to the 4 and 5 cyl inline engines from the GM trucks.
Any feed back would be great.
This is directed towards the hotrod market.
LHP

LHP... what do you have in mind on the ITB's? That sure would look cool hanging off the side of the engine. Retrofitting 3 pair of side draft webers, or using 6 individual throttles from something newer? Wonder how hard it would be to make it operate with the factory electronic controlled throttle. -Chuck

The throttle system that I'm thinking about would be 6 individual throttles of 54 m/m per port, as the ports on the 6/4200cc vortec are big, around 53m/m in crossectional area.
To put webers on the engine and retain the stock alternator would be difficult as it(the alternator)is right in the way of port #1, if you come straight out from the head.
With the injection throttles, I can turn the manifold ports up a bit and avoid the alternator, also it "looks cool" with the throttles pointing a little down hill into the engine.
The webers would also have to be mounted as close to horizontal as possible, because of the floats etc.
webers have 90m/m centers and this would make the manifold for the webers spread out to the ports, not straight and slight down draft like the injection system would be
The throttles I'm thinking about, would not work with the stock ECU, we will probably go with the Big stuff3 ECU and then can do anything we want with the engine as it's going into a hotrod anyway.

The 4/2800cc and 5/3500cc cylinder engines have the same basic manifold patterns so this manifold will fit these engines as well

Any feed back would be great,
Thanks:LHP

LHP... I wasn't meaning to hook up fuel to the Webers, just using them as a throttle body. If they won't work that's fine, just throwing out the idea. -Chuck

Idependent runner/throttle blade will only work if there is a plenum connecting all the runners together otherwise there is no common source to pick up the absolute manifold pressure from if you are plannning on using a speed-density EFI system. The other alternative is to common the IR throttle bodies into a common sealed airbox and run a mass airflow sensor into the EFI controller.

This is the one area where EFI is not as flexible as carbs. If you choose EFI then functionality has to take presedence over looks. It all depends what you want - looks or drivability.

With the basic design of an inline 6 cyl,
it's hard to make a manifold that feeds all ports very well.
So for all out performance gains,
the individual throttle setup is the way to go.
Look at Igor's 6 cyl, 2.9" throttles per port.
If you want to just drive around, then you run lesser manifolds with lower power potential.

And if you plenumize the runners so as to run a maf sensor, you are limiting total performance of the engine as the cylinders/airflow is now very confused within the plenum, just look at the firing order of the average 6, the cylinders will be fighting each other for air within the plenum.

As for using speed density, that's the way to go with the system that I'm designing.To use a map sensor with ITB's is a waste of time, just opening the throttles a little bit will lose vacuum fast, but this is why they(ITB's)can make big power, less restrictions to power output.

You will want to source vacuum from each port(small lines) and group these together for power brake vacuum etc.

LHP

I am really curious to see how you are going to get a speed density system to work with ITB's as you point out there is little or no manifold pressure to work with.
Speed density by defitnition requires a good manifold pressure signal.

My guess is that the system is going to go full rich as soon as you tickle the throttle. This may be fine for a drag race application which may be what you have in mind. For street usage though its not ideal.

The only way that I can see a ITB system working is to run alpha-N, but this has some drawbacks.

I'd be interested in following your progress in getting this running.

Sorry my mistake.
It would be alpha-n.
The map sensor could still be used as an altimeter, so to speak,if wanted, with a correction scale for basic barometric change as long as it was in a stable spot such as a ram air scoop for the intake system along with the intake air temp sensor, could also be used with data collection to see if the scoop works/ram air etc.

either way the engine has to be mapped out on a dyno for correct A/F etc.
LHP www.haywardperformance.com

hey all, well i do own a 2002 Trailblazer and am in dire need of customising the engine. There are absolutely NO mods for this engine unless done customised, sooo with that in hand, earlier up on this page someone had noted about installing a turbo running 8lbs of boost, would this just be a direct bolt-on??

U have noo warranty on my car, and am using it as a daily driver so I would not want too many internals delt with as that would mean out of action for too long. I wanted to overbore the block, but couldnt find any piston heads to do so, so Ive decided to just turbo the beast.

Any ideas on how this could be done and what I would need to do this??

Thanks in advance!

'blazin-
i dont mean to come down too hard, but i dont think you have any idea what is involved with boring and/or stroking. you stated that you dont want it down too long because its a daily driver, but rebuilding the engine is likely to take it down for some time.

eh... turboing anything but a very common engine in a very common car is usually not a bolt-on deal. i am certain you could find a shop that would custom-build a turbo setup for your trailblazer, but that is also going to be a bit lengthy not to mention pricey.

my suggestion to satisfy both your power requirements as well as down-time and reliability issues would be to have somebody develop a bracket system to get a centrifugal supercharger setup for about the afore-recommended 8psi. im no pro at this, but thats my plan so far.

also, check out the chip jet has for it at
http://www.jetchip.com/products.asp?pid=18614&make=22&model=489#489

looks like they have a dyno sheet for an 03 with the stage 1:
http://www.jetchip.com/pdf/dyno/chevrolet/2003Envoy4.2L.pdf

it probably doesnt take boost into account and i dont know if jet could custom-build you one or not. check into it

anybody that knows anything care to add?

I have seen several pictures of the swap being done but I have one unanswered question, what is being done to control the cam phasing?
Does anyone have any information on this?
Or more information one the VVT? Is it a simple switch over at a particular rpm or load?

Thanks,
Mike