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My current setup is a 194 with a pg and 3.08s.
I plan on installing a 292 with overdrive tranny (t5 or 700R4). Tires size will be 225/60/15. Cam is from Schneider racing cams (264-H 264 duration 214 @ .050" .498" lift 110 lobe center).
What would you guys recommend for rear end ratio? I want more 'umph' at the bottom end, but I still want to be able to cruise at 70-75 or so on the freeway. It is not driven daily anymore, but it's not out of character for me to take it on a 300 mile road trip.
Last edited by 63ChevyII; 02/26/09 04:01 PM.
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I have a 292 with a z-28 T-5 and I am running a 3:55 Posi on a 8.5" Nova 10 bolt. The tranny's first gear is a 2.98 (low) and the OD is 0.72. That gives me great low end starts and great hwy cruising. I have tall 30" tires on the back. 275-15/75 series.
I am running 65 mph and the tach reads 1850 rpms.
16 mpg in town and 20 mpg on the freeway
Raprap
1940 ChoppedChevyCoupe
Last edited by chopped 40; 02/26/09 07:00 PM.
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There's a big difference in consequences between a 700R4 and a T5.
The 700R4 will begin to make unwanted downshifts continuously (shuttling) under certain speed, vacuum and load conditions with tall gearing (which may be fixable with some valve body mods - see TransGo), especially with that cam.
The T5 will lug the engine in high gear under similar conditions, but you'll feel it, if you don't mind downshifting.
If you do much driving in traffic you'll find yourself in 4th a lot.
Your mileage may be worse at 50 than at 70, especially with that cam.
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Depending on what how tall a rear tire is installed.
I will guestimate you will need 3.55's
w/a 24-26" tall tire.
MBHD
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Thanks for the input everyone.
The 700R4 will begin to make unwanted downshifts continuously (shuttling) ... especially with that cam.
Your mileage may be worse at 50 than at 70, especially with that cam.
did I make a bad choice re: the cam?
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sounds like a modest cam to me. not too big. i run the 292/ 700r4/ 255/15" tire 28" tall and 3.55 gears. @ 70 MPH the tach reads 2100 or so. not down shifting ever. does not down shift @ 60 mph either. tom
Inliner Member 1716 65 Chevelle Wagon and 41 Hudson Pickup Information and parts www.12bolt.com
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No the cam is certainly better than stock, but it moves your operating range higher. Just the price you pay.
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Tire will be 25.63" tall.
3.55s at 65mph with 700R4 (.70) = 2118
3.55s @ 65mph with T5 (.68) = 2057
Does that sound about right guys?
Tlowe,
What torque converter are you using?
Last edited by 63ChevyII; 02/27/09 01:26 PM.
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at first i used a stock diameter 1650 rpm convertor, it worked good. now i have a 2000 stall stock type. it feels much looser in town. but it really lets the engine get into the power faster when floored.
both convertors were lockup type also.
Inliner Member 1716 65 Chevelle Wagon and 41 Hudson Pickup Information and parts www.12bolt.com
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Are the converters different for a V-8 verses the L6? I thought I read that somewhere.
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Pre-electronics GM did have different converters for sixes than eights etc. Basically with a mild six, the converter will stall a little lower than a mild 350 due to lower power output. The inverse is the reason many people ran Vega converters as with a big motor they would stall higher with a big motor.
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The guy that I may be buying the 700r4 from has it installed in his 63 Nova(194 L6). I rode in it a few months ago. He recently contacted me to see if I wanted the tranny (he's installing a 5.3/4l60e combo). He told me I'd get the following from him:
TH700R4 4speed OD transmission
- Used and in obvious running condition
- Kick-down cable / brackets
- Modified transmission crossmember
- Wiring for Lock-up on torque converter
- Used 1800 stall torque converter (stock 1997 Suburban Converter)
He's also throwing in the driveshaft.
Should this converter work behind the 292?
Last edited by 63ChevyII; 02/27/09 07:42 PM.
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I run a built 250 in a 41 plymouth with a 700r4, when I first built it I had a 10"Gm with 3.08 gears (27" tires) to tall a gear caused a lot of shuttle shifting. Switched to a 9"ford with 3.50 gears much better I even tow my roadster with it, but if I wanted to do any serious quarter mile running I would go to 3.90 or 4.10. About ten years ago I built a T bucket for a fellow with a 350 and a 200r4 started with a low 3s rear gear then went to a 4.10 with a locker and it was unbelieveable the difference it made, felt like he added about 200 horses but with the overdrive it still cruised nicely down the highway at 70/75 mph.
Been there, Done that, Hope to live long enough to do it again.
Big Bill
I.I.# 4698
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You just have to make sure your cruise RPM isn't below your stall speed or you'll get excess slippage and high ATF temps.
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that convertor will work great in your light car. tom
Inliner Member 1716 65 Chevelle Wagon and 41 Hudson Pickup Information and parts www.12bolt.com
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Are the converters different for a V-8 verses the L6? I thought I read that somewhere. From the factory there are different converters for 4 6, & 8 cylinders. Remember the Chevy Vega? Those had a factory 10" converter that probably stalled about 1800-2000 rpm,I put one behind my mild 250 6 cylinder,it stalled to 2600-2800,behind a mild V-8 3000 RPM easy. Note: My th350 trans did not run hot with the Vega 10" converterIf you want some ummmf for the bottom end a stall about 1800 RPM should work pretty good. With your cam choice & RPMs figured out I would say you should keep the RPMs around 2200-2300 for better mileage. If you keep the RPMs too low,your mileage will drop. If that converter stalls to 1800 rpm in a V-8 application I am pretty sure it will not stall that high for you,therefore not getting you enough stall as you would like for better take off. I own a 1997 350 CI 1500 Silverado PU. the converter is horrible for takeing off fast, & I do mean horrible! It brake stalls to 1200 RPM if I'm lucky,my 60 ft time is 2.4 -2.5seconds pathetic! So basically what I am saying you would at least 1800 stall for you to be happy with the low end output of the engine. Even with more stall, w/a lock-up converter you will get good mileage still when it is locked. Two cents thrown :-) MBHD
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The guy that I may be buying the 700r4 from has it installed in his 63 Nova(194 L6). I rode in it a few months ago. He recently contacted me to see if I wanted the tranny (he's installing a 5.3/4l60e combo). He told me I'd get the following from him:
TH700R4 4speed OD transmission
- Used and in obvious running condition
- Kick-down cable / brackets
- Modified transmission crossmember
- Wiring for Lock-up on torque converter
- Used 1800 stall torque converter (stock 1997 Suburban Converter)
He's also throwing in the driveshaft.
Should this converter work behind the 292? What did it have for a rear gear and tire size? What did it have for a camshaft? Did you like the way it ran?
I.I. #3174
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Standard truck/Sub rear gear ratio is 3.73's If it is a 1997 model.
Anything else is special order.
Standard truck tires are about 28-29" tall.
MBHD
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No, the Nova that the 700 was in...
I.I. #3174
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What did it have for a rear gear and tire size?
What did it have for a camshaft?
Did you like the way it ran?
I believe the tire size was really close, if not the same as what I plan on running. The rear gears were about 3.08. I think the engine was an all stock, with the exception of HEI, 194. The guy hasn't had the car for very long and isn't interested in the L6, he didn't have much interest in figuring out what he had, but he seemed to think that the engine had never been apart. He did put it on his dyno and I think the HP was around 100. I didn't drive it, but it seemed to be much quicker than my car. The prospect of putting a 700 in my car got me a little excited.
Last edited by 63ChevyII; 03/01/09 02:56 PM.
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Because the line up of the columns is a bit off, you can figure out the rest. i have a 3.40:1 1977 4x4 suburban rear end in my 51 - 3104 and a modified 292 with a T-5 HYBRID. CALCULATED:::::::::::  Speed vs. RPM For Tire and Gear Ratio A real accurate way to determine your tire diameter is to draw a line on the bottom of your tire, then draw a line on the ground which lines up with the line you just drew on your tire. Then move the car until the car makes one full rotation of the tire and mark the ground where the line on the tire is at the bottom again. Now measure the length between the two lines and divide by pie (3.14) and you'll have your tire diameter to use on the calculator (don't forget to use inches). This is the preffered method to use in determining your actual tire diameter. CHEVROLET T-5 Borg Warner Transmission Ratios:
1st: 2.95 2nd: 1.94 3rd: 1.34 4th: 1 5th: 0.74Tire Diameter 1: 27.5 inches
Rear Gear Ratio 1: 3.08:1 MPH RPM 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 1000 9 13 19 25 34 0 1500 13 20 29 38 52 0 2000 17 26 38 51 69 0 2500 22 33 48 64 86 0 3000 26 39 57 76 103 0 3500 30 46 67 89 121 0 4000 35 53 76 102 138 0 4500 39 59 86 115 155 0 5000 43 66 95 127 172 0 5500 48 72 105 140 190 0 6000 52 79 114 153 207 0 6500 56 85 124 166 224 0 7000 61 92 133 178 241 0 7500 65 99 143 191 258 0 8000 69 105 152 204 276 0 Tire Diameter 2: 27.5 inches
Rear Gear Ratio 2: 3.43:1 MPH RPM 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 1000 8 12 17 23 31 0 1500 12 18 26 34 46 0 2000 16 24 34 46 62 0 2500 19 30 43 57 77 0 3000 23 35 51 69 93 0 3500 27 41 60 80 108 0 4000 31 47 68 92 124 0 4500 35 53 77 103 139 0 5000 39 59 85 114 155 0 5500 43 65 94 126 170 0 6000 47 71 103 137 186 0 6500 50 77 111 149 201 0 7000 54 83 120 160 217 0 7500 58 89 128 172 232 0 8000 62 94 137 183 248 0 CHEVROLET T-5 Borg Warner Transmission Ratios: 1st: 2.95 2nd: 1.94 3rd: 1.34 4th: 1 5th: 0.74 Tire Diameter 1: 27.5 inches
Rear Gear Ratio 1: 3.73:1 MPH RPM 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 1000 7 11 16 21 28 0 1500 11 16 24 32 43 0 2000 14 22 31 42 57 0 2500 18 27 39 53 71 0 3000 21 33 47 63 85 0 3500 25 38 55 74 100 0 4000 29 43 63 84 114 0 4500 32 49 71 95 128 0 5000 36 54 79 105 142 0 5500 39 60 86 116 156 0 6000 43 65 94 126 171 0 6500 46 71 102 137 185 0 7000 50 76 110 147 199 0 7500 54 81 118 158 213 0 8000 57 87 126 168 228 0 Tire Diameter 2: 27.5 inches
Rear Gear Ratio 2: 4.11:1 MPH RPM 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 1000 6 10 14 19 26 0 1500 10 15 21 29 39 0 2000 13 20 29 38 52 0 2500 16 25 36 48 65 0 3000 19 30 43 57 77 0 3500 23 34 50 67 90 0 4000 26 39 57 76 103 0 4500 29 44 64 86 116 0 5000 32 49 71 96 129 0 5500 36 54 78 105 142 0 6000 39 59 86 115 155 0 6500 42 64 93 124 168 0 7000 45 69 100 134 181 0 7500 49 74 107 143 194 0 8000 52 79 114 153 207 0 CHEVROLET T-5 Borg Warner Transmission Ratios: 1st: 2.95 2nd: 1.94 3rd: 1.34 4th: 1 5th: 0.74 Tire Diameter 1: 28.5 inches
Rear Gear Ratio 1: 3.08:1 MPH RPM 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 1000 9 14 20 26 36 0 1500 13 20 30 40 54 0 2000 18 27 39 53 71 0 2500 22 34 49 66 89 0 3000 27 41 59 79 107 0 3500 31 48 69 92 125 0 4000 36 54 79 106 143 0 4500 40 61 89 119 161 0 5000 45 68 99 132 179 0 5500 49 75 108 145 196 0 6000 54 82 118 159 214 0 6500 58 89 128 172 232 0 7000 63 95 138 185 250 0 7500 67 102 148 198 268 0 8000 72 109 158 211 286 0 Tire Diameter 2: 28.5 inches
Rear Gear Ratio 2: 3.43:1 MPH RPM 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 1000 8 12 18 24 32 0 1500 12 18 27 36 48 0 2000 16 24 35 47 64 0 2500 20 31 44 59 80 0 3000 24 37 53 71 96 0 3500 28 43 62 83 112 0 4000 32 49 71 95 128 0 4500 36 55 80 107 144 0 5000 40 61 89 119 160 0 5500 44 67 97 131 176 0 6000 48 73 106 142 192 0 6500 52 80 115 154 208 0 7000 56 86 124 166 224 0 7500 60 92 133 178 241 0 8000 64 98 142 190 257 0 CHEVROLET T-5 Borg Warner Transmission Ratios: 1st: 2.95 2nd: 1.94 3rd: 1.34 4th: 1 5th: 0.74 Tire Diameter 1: 28.5 inches
Rear Gear Ratio 1: 3.73:1 MPH RPM 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 1000 7 11 16 22 29 0 1500 11 17 24 33 44 0 2000 15 22 33 44 59 0 2500 18 28 41 55 74 0 3000 22 34 49 65 88 0 3500 26 39 57 76 103 0 4000 30 45 65 87 118 0 4500 33 51 73 98 133 0 5000 37 56 81 109 147 0 5500 41 62 90 120 162 0 6000 44 67 98 131 177 0 6500 48 73 106 142 192 0 7000 52 79 114 153 206 0 7500 55 84 122 164 221 0 8000 59 90 130 175 236 0 Tire Diameter 2: 28.5 inches
Rear Gear Ratio 2: 4.11:1 MPH RPM 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 1000 7 10 15 20 27 0 1500 10 15 22 30 40 0 2000 13 20 30 40 54 0 2500 17 26 37 50 67 0 3000 20 31 44 59 80 0 3500 23 36 52 69 94 0 4000 27 41 59 79 107 0 4500 30 46 67 89 120 0 5000 34 51 74 99 134 0 5500 37 56 81 109 147 0 6000 40 61 89 119 161 0 6500 44 66 96 129 174 0 7000 47 71 103 139 187 0 7500 50 77 111 149 201 0 8000 54 82 118 158 214 0
Last edited by carolines truck; 03/11/09 11:49 AM.
Gooday
Caroline & Jim
& Lucinda our 3104
51-3100 inliner @ 4655
small wheel moves by fire and rod,
big wheel moves by the grace of god,
every time that wheel turns round,
bound to cover just a little more ground.
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My 700 behind a 250, if I remember right the tranny guy said it was a s-10 application for a 4cyl, with about 2400 stall,,? I dont know if he meant behind my engine or the 4cyl,,,,
can we start at the almost beginning,, can someone in laymans terms describe stall, I always thought it was a point felt when brake standing that you could no longer hold the tires back,,"brake stall",,,how about flash stall,,
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i have never heard the term 'flash stall' before. i had understood stall speed to be the rpm point at which the tranny engages. maybe this will help Torque Converter Stall Speeds
To explain "stall speed", let’s start with a true full stall. If the transmission were in drive, the brakes were held down (so the vehicle will not move) and the throttle was held "wide open" the torque converter will "stall" the engine at a certain rpm. When "stalled" the engine will not be able to spin any faster unless the vehicle is allowed to move. This is a true full stall. We have specialized equipment which is used to perform this test.
DO NOT TEST FOR TRUE STALL, IT CAN DAMAGE SHAFTS AND OVERHEAT THE TORQUE CONVERTER!
The next stall speed is generally called "break away" stall speed. If a truck is stopped on a hill and held in position using light throttle as opposed to brakes we are almost at the "break away" stall speed. If the engine rpm required to "hold" the truck was 1100 rpm and an increase to 1125 rpm started to move the truck then the "break away" stall speed is 1125 rpm.
The last stall speed is generally referred to as the "flash stall" speed. The flash stall speed takes effect under hard acceleration. If, from a standing start, you were to "floor" the throttle the engine would start to accelerate quickly and then pause at an rpm is it starts to pull the truck. If the engine went from idle to 1500 rpm in 1.5 seconds when floored and then took another 2 or 3 seconds to get from 1500 to 1700 rpm, this would mean the "flash stall" speed was at 1500 rpm. When we lower the stall we want to lower the break away speed as well as the flash stall speed. This will make the engine work at a lower rpm for a given road speed and, in most cases, will increase fuel mileage.
Once up to speed, the computer will command the lock up clutch "on", and the driven fan will lock to the front cover of the converter. At this point the drive, driven fan and engine are turning the same speed which means all engine power will be delivered to the transmission and back to the wheels. from http://www.goerend.com/torqueconvertertech.phpMaybe one of the other guys can tell us how accurate this info is.
Last edited by 63ChevyII; 03/11/09 03:17 PM.
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[quote=63ChevyII]Tire will be 25.63" tall.
3.55s at 65mph with 700R4 (.70) = 2118
3.55s @ 65mph with T5 (.68) = 2057
Does that sound about right guys?
THose revs sound right.
I used my MPG calculator and found not a big difference in gear for your combo although I guessed at some stuff about the engine build e.g. a 390 Holley and 8.0cr.
I do calculate 20mpg or 19.9mpg for chopped 40 as he quotes and assuming he has a fairly stock 292, and for your car at 65mph cruise I calculate:
5spd
18.78mpg 3.55 gear
19.10mpg 3.08 gear
700r4
17.00mpg 3.55 gear
17.51mpg 3.08 gear
Some cars are very sensitive to gear but in this range yours would not appear to be. With 3.08 the revs would be really low. What I would do is leave the 3.08 in there and see how you like it. Unless it is a posi you will likely have traction problems either way and have to swap the rear, that might be the time to go to 3.55's, and a posi if the 3.08 is lugging more than you like.
17.51
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DeuceCoupe,
Your figures are right on. I calculated my RPM's using my Classic Instruments Electric Speedo that was calibrated to my drive train and rear tire profile. The height of the drive wheel and tire will have a direct ratio to the final rpm. I had several new vehicles pace my Coupe for several miles to get an average consistant MPH reading. I then flipped the DIP switches on the back of my speedo to calibrate my trure MPH.
With my warmed over 292, T-5, 3:55 10 bolt rear and 31" tall tires, I calculate 1925 RPM's at 65 MPH. My mileage varies as do the road conditions and driving habits. Normally around town, I'll get 16-18 MPG. In car show cruising the grounds, 14 MPG. True highway traveling, 350 miles of fairly level and some hilly roads without stopping netted 22 MPG!
RapRap
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