#62172 - 12/17/10 04:33 AM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
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tlowe #1716
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Nice chart. MHI Turbine housing areas:
6 cm2 = 0.41 A/R 7 cm2 = 0.49 A/R 8 cm2 = 0.57 A/R Stock Syclone 8 CM,works great w/2100 stall 9 cm2 = 0.65 A/R 10 cm2 = 0.73 A/R Also works good w/2100 stall 11 cm2 = 0.81 A/R 12 cm2 = 0.89 A/R Takes a while to spool up needs closer to 2400 14 cm2 = 0.97 A/R Minimum 2600 w/lag, 2800 + Stall is better for fast spool-up 15 cm2 = 1.05 A/R 16 cm2 = 1.13 A/R 17 cm2 = 1.29 A/R 19 cm2 = 1.37 A/R
Wish it was easy to get one for every turbo manufacturer.
I think in the past you had said stock boost for the Cyclone is 12 or 15 psi. Buicks also run boost like that , stock. If Snow tries to do that to his 250, bad things will happen. He may progress to that point, but starting there will inevidibly end in failure. And disappointment. This is his daily driver, not a weekend toy. He also has a tight, teenage budget. Tom
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#62195 - 12/18/10 11:09 AM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: snowman4839]
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tlowe #1716
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I think you are being too hasty in your decision. One turbo is not going to do a low boost setup and later a high boost setup (very well). Settle down and lets do this logically. I will try and get measurements from the 250 turbo engine Turbo. Maybe on Sunday. Tom
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#62197 - 12/18/10 02:54 PM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: snowman4839]
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56er
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Loc: Bremerton, WA
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It it was me, I'd get the intake & carb, exhaust manifold, your ignition upgraded, the upgraded valvesprings installed, and all the linkage built and sorted out, and the drain welded in oil pan etc. You can drive it like this, then save up again and buy the turbo/wastegate/intercooler last. That will also give you some time to spend on http://www.theturboforums.com to soak up some more knowledge. No one on here knows everything, we just have different pieces of the puzzle you have to put together yourself. Except for me, that is. I know everything.
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"The first rule of overkill: You can never have too much overkill." "Overkill is underrated."
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#62199 - 12/18/10 04:09 PM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: 56er]
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tlowe #1716
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Yeah! That is one confident guy.
I agree, build it as a N/A motor and grow into it. Tom
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#62208 - 12/18/10 10:01 PM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: snowman4839]
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Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank
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Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 4550
Loc: Ca
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If I did get a turbo cam along with the upgrades to the valvetrain, could I run it N/A until I actually get the turbo stuff? Would it run any better/worse? I would venture to say a turbo grind cam will not run any worse than your stock cam,probably will run better depending on specs of camshaft. The stock cam in your engine has pretty pathetic specs IMO. Just as bad as my Syclone camshaft. MBHD, I know. As I've been thinking about it more and more, I've been thinking about how I should probably save up and get a Garret or Turbonetics or some good brand turbo rather than a eBay turbo. I'll leave the cheap stuff to the less important things like the BOV or the wastegate. That is why I was suggesting a used Buick GN or a Stock Syclone turbo. Price range will be $150 -$250 on average for a stock good working turbo,, sure there is a risk in buying used,but the rebuild kits are cheap incase you get a turbo that needs seals. The rebuild kit for my Mitsubishi was $50. Shop wisely (if you go this route) on forums & read there feedback ratings for there dealings w/other members on the boards.The GN turbos are just oil cooled while the Syclone & Tyhoon turbos are oil & water cooled.
The GN turbos have a 3 bolt round inlet to the turbine,not as good as a T3 mounted turbo like the Sy/Ty's have. Note: The stock Mitsubishi turbos on Syclones can easily be upgraded. The Syclone makes 280 HP stock,guys have run the stock turbo up to 320 HP. On the next upgrade/bigger direct replacement Mitsu turbo ,the TD06H-20G, http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/syclone-typhoon-tech-forum/210818-turbo-sale.html
which I dynoed my stock longblock made 386 HP & 550ft lbs of torque. I then upgrade the compressor wheel to a 60-1 wheel,estimated HP is 400+ . What is holding back having more power is by me switching to a 14 CM turbine housing,,, but, I would need @ least a stall of 2600-2800 rpm. Holding off till later for the converter swap. Below are pics of a stock Syclone compressor wheel & a 60-1 wheel installed in a stock/modified compressor housing. I made the billet 3" inlet from the previous 2.75" inlet.


 I also tried different CM turbine housings,here is a 14 cm, 10cm,& 8 cm,the 12cm is on my Syclone as we speak.

 as you can probably tell or maybe think,,, I do actual testing on cars on the street/track not just typing on keyboards. I have owned my Syclone since 1998 & the first turbo build I did was back in 1987 on a 1980 VW Schirroco(SP)fun project BTW & quick!
MBHD
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#64301 - 04/18/11 06:36 PM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: snowman4839]
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tlowe #1716
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Cast pistons are very brittle. A engine that could/ would see that kind of boost will certainly experience some type of detonation. Detonation would tear cast piston ring lands off in short order.
I do have nice forged 250 and 292 pistons available on my website.
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#64324 - 04/20/11 03:46 AM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
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copo-rat
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Registered: 04/03/10
Posts: 103
Loc: SE Indiana
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I would not go over .030 overbore if you do not need to. MBHD
Why no more than .030 over?
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".....don't give up a TURBO more than makes up for all of this BS." Turbo-6
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#64327 - 04/20/11 10:56 AM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: tlowe #1716]
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TheSilverBuick
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Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Ely, NV
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Cast pistons are very brittle. A engine that could/ would see that kind of boost will certainly experience some type of detonation. Detonation would tear cast piston ring lands off in short order.
I do have nice forged 250 and 292 pistons available on my website.
Looking at them, they are high compression pistons. Would they be suitable for turbocharging with a 9.5+:1 compression ratio?
_________________________
Rebuilding an OHC Pontiac 250 with EFI and a Turbo
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#64328 - 04/20/11 04:41 PM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: TheSilverBuick]
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tlowe #1716
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A low 9's compression ratio can be had with a head that has a larger than 74CC chamber. This can easily be done when relieving around the intake valve. The turbo 250 used these exact same design pistons.
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#64443 - 04/26/11 06:00 PM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: snowman4839]
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tlowe #1716
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They will work, but will be hard to fab to a turbo flange. They will also get very hot and most probably lose shape.
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#64465 - 04/27/11 05:52 PM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
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snowman4839
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Registered: 03/26/10
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Well I know SPAs are about $600 new so what do they cost used? because my max would be about $350 or $400 if I save this summer.
And I'm planning on getting a different engine so that I can do the work in my leisure and not worry about throwing it together one weekend and throwing it back in and hoping it works... As well as the fact, I can leave the original engine low-milage and untouched internally. Anyone know where to look for a 250 in the midsouth in the low $100s? I've seen quite a few running 250s on craigslist for $100-150 but they're all around 3-4 hours away... Also since I'm planning on machine work, can I look for 194s and 230s since the 250 is just a stroked 230 and the 230 has the same bore as a 250 and I can bore the 194 to a 230 and then put a 250 crank in it? Or are there some problems with compatibility?
Lastly, not to add to all of the plan changing or anything, but since I've decided to get a project engine, this provides the opportunity for a 292... Would this just add to the confusion? Or would it be a worthwhile investment? Or is it not good to put in an a-body car? I know they have different motor mounts, I think different clutch mounts, and different fuel pump lobe placement than a 250. Is it just more trouble than it's worth? I just thought I'd throw the idea out there because I can get one for about the same price as a 250.
EDIT: and for the hell of it, what do you guys expect my horsepower limits would be with forged rods and pistons and the stock crank (which I've read is VERY strong). Because if I do end up getting all of that, could I just throw a big turbo on it, tune it, and drag it on the weekends?
Edited by snowman4839 (04/27/11 06:04 PM)
_________________________
1969 Buick Special Deluxe. Turbo Chevy 250 @ 10psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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#64466 - 04/27/11 06:49 PM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: snowman4839]
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Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank
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Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 4550
Loc: Ca
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Well I know SPAs are about $600 new so what do they cost used? because my max would be about $350 or $400 if I save this summer.
The problem is there are not many here in the US, so used would most likely be hard to find.
And I'm planning on getting a different engine so that I can do the work in my leisure and not worry about throwing it together one weekend and throwing it back in and hoping it works... As well as the fact, I can leave the original engine low-milage and untouched internally. Anyone know where to look for a 250 in the midsouth in the low $100s? I've seen quite a few running 250s on craigslist for $100-150 but they're all around 3-4 hours away... Also since I'm planning on machine work, can I look for 194s and 230s since the 250 is just a stroked 230 and the 230 has the same bore as a 250 and I can bore the 194 NO! 194 block cannot bore that big. to a 230 and then put a 250 crank in it? Or are there some problems with compatibility?
I say, w/todays gas prices, better off building a smaller engine like a 250,,, if you want more power from a 250, turn up the boost along w/tuning It's easier to get better mileage from a smaller engine than the big 292 IMO
Lastly, not to add to all of the plan changing or anything, but since I've decided to get a project engine, this provides the opportunity for a 292... Would this just add to the confusion? Or would it be a worthwhile investment? Or is it not good to put in an a-body car? I know they have different motor mounts, I think different clutch mounts, and different fuel pump lobe placement than a 250. Is it just more trouble than it's worth? I just thought I'd throw the idea out there because I can get one for about the same price as a 250.
EDIT: and for the hell of it, what do you guys expect my horsepower limits would be with forged rods and pistons and the stock crank (which I've read is VERY strong). Because if I do end up getting all of that, could I just throw a big turbo on it, tune it, and drag it on the weekends?
350-500 HP to the wheels. can be done pretty easy w/the correct supporting parts.
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#64470 - 04/27/11 07:58 PM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
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tlowe #1716
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Snowman, One thing I have mentioned before. Not sure if the SPA manifold will fit into your chassis with a 250. The turbo will probably conflict with the steering shaft. There is a 292 in mine with almost the same chassis (mine is a chevy, yours is a buick) but still nearly the same chassis. My turbo is within 1/4" And has rubbed at some time because it leaves marks on the shaft. With a 250 being much shorter than a 292, this is going to put the turbo into a big conflict.
SPA with T3 on ebay, why pay more?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SPA-Turbo...sQ5fAccessories
Checkout how far out and down the turbo sits on a 250.

Edited by tlowe #1716 (04/27/11 08:20 PM)
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#64484 - 04/27/11 10:42 PM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
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snowman4839
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Registered: 03/26/10
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Loc: Memphis, TN
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I believe that was just an offset spacer. I am not sure it will work or not, so ask people & see if it will fit to be sure. His spacer moves turbo up & outwards.
You could use spacers on the engine mounts to raise engine & clear the steering shaft.Not my first choice,but would work.
Install a rack & pinion steering set-up.
The 3 spd saginaw trans has poor gear ratios,,, but, if you must. Last thing, sometimes our 6's are not the fastest as compared to those V-thingys, so putting your car on a diet is always good.
MBHD
Well by diet, I assume you mean loosing extra weight...
and I'm not keeping the saginaw 3 speed, I'm probably going to try to find a chevy 3 speed + OD. I've been looking at the A833 they used in chevy trucks in the 80s. What do you consider good gear ratios? 2.5:1,1.5:1,1:1? I'm assuming you don't like how the saginaws have a high first gear... am I right? well the A833 isn't any better then... it has a 3.09:1 first.
_________________________
1969 Buick Special Deluxe. Turbo Chevy 250 @ 10psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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