logo
12 Port News - Features
12 Port History
Casting Numbers
Online Store
Tech Tips
Become a Member
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rating: 4
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#37431 12/04/07 06:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 154
L
Leif Offline OP
Contributor
OP Offline
Contributor
L
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 154
Ray
Regarding the very long length of the big six, I can't find an explanation other than that it was designed in an era (circa 1937) when they needed a lot of iron to guarantee strength and it was intended for an application where weight wasn’t much of an issue. Also a diesel version was introduced a year later so maybe they wanted to be very sure it would be strong enough.

The post war version had revised porting with a port for every valve. (Six intakes & six exhausts)

Here is a cutaway:



By ortegren1924

#37432 12/04/07 11:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 52
S
Active BB Member
Offline
Active BB Member
S
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 52
what a monster..that's the type of over engineering that get's you a reliability reputation


We're both great!
#37433 12/05/07 03:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 599
R
Major Contributor
*****
Offline
Major Contributor
*****
R
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 599
I see that four of the mains are considerably narrower than the others...

There's a scrapyard somewhere that's got a truck with one of these in use, I got some pics sent to me once. I think it's in California.

#37434 12/05/07 01:33 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 154
L
Leif Offline OP
Contributor
OP Offline
Contributor
L
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 154
I tried to post this spread sheet I made yesterday but the posting process scrambled it. So here it is as a jpeg (I tried 4 times to make the size correct but couldn't get to go.. help!).

The figures are for the last and biggest version of each engine type and the years are “car only”; nearly all continued much longer in trucks and industrial power plants. Also, the book (see earlier post) lists block length, but the early engines included the bell housing at the back and had an extended nose due to the chain drive generator, so they measure really long.
Check the cylinder spacing on the “Big Six”…lots of metal there!


URL=http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fheadspecspreadbw6.jpg] [/URL]

#37435 12/05/07 04:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 599
R
Major Contributor
*****
Offline
Major Contributor
*****
R
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 599


See if I can get a look at it with the bracket added...

Oh yeah, that's better. Over six inches up... does the flywheel shroud come into that too?

#37436 12/06/07 12:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 52
S
Active BB Member
Offline
Active BB Member
S
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 52
I didn't know the 8cyl had an offset wristpin...


We're both great!
#37437 12/06/07 04:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 154
L
Leif Offline OP
Contributor
OP Offline
Contributor
L
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 154
Thanks for making this readable Ray!

I think that Chrysler was measuring the overall length of the block casting so the flywheel shroud would add a lot and those early engines had more metal in front as well because the chain to the cam also drove the generator, which had a tension adjustment. The block extended out in front to keep oil on this assembly, and to make a mount on the front cross member. They had a different idea about space utilization back then. Some sporty two seaters had 12ft wheel bases.
The rods in the eight are offset at the bottom so that there is more bearing on the side facing the center of the engine than on the side facing away from it. This was done to get the bores a little farther apart with out redesigning the whole bottom end. Apparently this was done to the smaller six cylinder engines as well, but then they got a complete redesign in 1937 that eliminated this feature. I haven’t ever seen the bottom end of an eight to verify this and my 1948 Motor Manual doesn’t mention it, so I can’t swear they had this right up to 1950, but it seems like they did.

Here is a picture of a model 77 six:
(I wish I could make these things come up the right size; I don't know what I am doing wrong)



#37438 12/06/07 06:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 599
R
Major Contributor
*****
Offline
Major Contributor
*****
R
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 599
 Quote:
Originally posted by Leif
Thanks for making this readable Ray!
.....Here is a picture of a model 77 six:
(I wish I could make these things come up the right size; I don't know what I am doing wrong)

Not much, Leif...

When you click on the line on Imageshack, you're selecting a 'thumbnail'... scroll down the page and look for the first one below all the ads and stuff... it's labelled 'Hotlink for forums (1)'.

Now, this offset business... this is where the big end is offset compared to the rod, to space the journal away from the main bearing, right?

I doubt that there's much compromise in that, is there?

#37439 12/07/07 12:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 154
L
Leif Offline OP
Contributor
OP Offline
Contributor
L
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 154
Just as you say; the rod isn't centered over the bearing; it's toward one side so that the cylinder above it can be moved to get more room for a larger bore. Obviously this isn't ideal but you are correct about it not being much of a compromise. I think the biggest down side was that it required assemblers to pay attention because 4 were off set one way and 4 the other direction. Reading about this again I think I said it backwards before… "The cylinder centers were judiciously moved, resulting in the narrow 3.5 in spacing being increased to 3.625in, the intermediate spacing being reduced to 3.8125in, and 0.125in being removed from the center spacing to make it 4.0.”


From:
http://www.sae.org/technical/books/R-365

#37440 12/07/07 04:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 52
S
Active BB Member
Offline
Active BB Member
S
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 52
I had a chance to get a 50' 8cyl...now I wish I had...I'l love to see that bottom end!


We're both great!
#37441 12/15/07 02:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 154
L
Leif Offline OP
Contributor
OP Offline
Contributor
L
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 154
Here's a link to some pictures of a '49 straight 8. You can zoom in and see the offset.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=h...rysler%2Bstraig

Leif #44582 10/25/08 04:30 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 196
P
Contributor
Offline
Contributor
P
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 196
I just seen one of them big sixes like in that picture
http://img512.imageshack.us/my.php?image=77sixpt8.jpg
Its sitting in a barn here in Arkansas. The dude put a V-8 in the truck. It is maybe a 54 Dodge with 3 back windows. One in the middle and a curved window on each back corner of the cab.


250 Integrated Head / 1981 C-10 Pick up.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
1000 Post Club
****
Offline
1000 Post Club
****
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
How big is the one you saw? 48" overall? Did it have two carbs & duel exhaust manifolds?


"I wonder if God created man because he was disappointed in the monkey?" Mark Twain
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 196
P
Contributor
Offline
Contributor
P
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 196
I dont know. It was the first one I ever saw in real life.
The owner invited me over for bar-b-q so I guess I will have to take him up on it.


250 Integrated Head / 1981 C-10 Pick up.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
1000 Post Club
****
Offline
1000 Post Club
****
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
Take a tape measure. See if overall length is 48". See if the head is 30" X 9" and has 33 studs. See if it has 12 ports. Chances are it's not that big. Try to locate casting #s and let us know what you find. Here's pictures of mine. Thanks

http://picasaweb.google.com/sixpics/52DodgeBigSix?authkey=BZdrDZ3_kiY#


"I wonder if God created man because he was disappointed in the monkey?" Mark Twain
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 368
Contributor
****
Offline
Contributor
****
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 368
btt


Tim Tenold
I.I.#498
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,535
Likes: 15
1000 Post Club
****
Offline
1000 Post Club
****
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,535
Likes: 15
How'd you get the chicken to perch on the yardstick? ;\)

stock49 #64192 04/10/11 09:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
1000 Post Club
****
Offline
1000 Post Club
****
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
It's her yard stick. She just let me use it. \:\)


Thanks Tim!


"I wonder if God created man because he was disappointed in the monkey?" Mark Twain
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 599
R
Major Contributor
*****
Offline
Major Contributor
*****
R
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 599
Almost three months since anyone's posted anything on this forum... so I'll break the ice:



Reckon this truck featured one of these big sixes, right?

Ray Bell #65451 07/07/11 12:36 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
1000 Post Club
****
Offline
1000 Post Club
****
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
What a great shot of MOPAR classic trucks! In '59 my dad and I hauled our family's worldly possessions from Texas to California In a '52 Dodge 1/2 ton 3 speed pulling the biggest Y'ALL HAUL trailer we could get. Other than a few blow outs and vapor locks we had no trouble. We were way overloaded and could not do the same thing today. The trailer had no brakes. Stuff tied on the outside and my Cushman riding on the tongue. The small 221 had torque I can not imagine what the 413 could do. Beater


"I wonder if God created man because he was disappointed in the monkey?" Mark Twain
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10
C
Active BB Member
Offline
Active BB Member
C
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10
Does anyone know if the Imperial big six is the same engine as the truck big six? Did all the Big six's have a twelve port block?


ccbradford
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 599
R
Major Contributor
*****
Offline
Major Contributor
*****
R
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 599
Yeah, it's good...

I pulled three pics from a Powerpoint series of pics of this sort of thing I got with an e.mail yesterday. There were Fords, GMCs and Studebakers as well, maybe even something else.

e.mail me (raybell@racingphoenix.com) and I'll send it on... in the meantime, here's one of the others I did salvage, more Mopar inliners:


Ray Bell #65462 07/07/11 12:09 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
1000 Post Club
****
Offline
1000 Post Club
****
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
That car hauler is great. Made when design mattered. I fell out of an old Dodge four door when I was about six. Suicide doors earned the name. Once they are open on the highway it's hard to close them. \:D


"I wonder if God created man because he was disappointed in the monkey?" Mark Twain
CCBradford #65463 07/07/11 01:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
1000 Post Club
****
Offline
1000 Post Club
****
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
CC, I don't think all of them were 12 port. I know that intake and exhaust had different orders on some engines. There is more information here but the search feature is hard to use.


"I wonder if God created man because he was disappointed in the monkey?" Mark Twain
CCBradford #65489 07/09/11 12:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 599
R
Major Contributor
*****
Offline
Major Contributor
*****
R
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 599
 Quote:
Originally posted by CCBradford
Does anyone know if the Imperial big six is the same engine as the truck big six? Did all the Big six's have a twelve port block?


Good question...

I saw this suggested for the first time yesterday, but I'd like to know whether it's right or not.

Ray Bell #65493 07/09/11 07:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,123
Likes: 3
P
1000 Post Club
**
Offline
1000 Post Club
**
P
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,123
Likes: 3
Based on those specs, it looks very different.

panic #65506 07/10/11 05:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
1000 Post Club
****
Offline
1000 Post Club
****
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
While the Imperial 6 may have been used in some trucks the 413 truck engine is far too heavy to have been used in a car. I have some more truck specs I'll try to post.


"I wonder if God created man because he was disappointed in the monkey?" Mark Twain
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 831
Major Contributor
*****
Offline
Major Contributor
*****
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 831


'45 Ford PU
66 Valiant wagon, leaning tower of power.
79 Chevy C10 w/250
02 PT Cruiser Convertable
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 599
R
Major Contributor
*****
Offline
Major Contributor
*****
R
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 599
It didn't...

It's clear that the writers of those pages knew less than perhaps they should have before they became authors of such a thing.

For instance, when putting a '59 six into a '48 model (one speaks of doing this and needing to change the flywheel), you have the issue of the number of flywheel attachment bolts to deal with.

Anyway, the page does say that the 265 inch version of the long block was the biggest six used in a Chrysler automobile. I think there was maybe something back in the late twenties that was bigger, but that was from the ZSB family of engines.

Ray Bell #73559 01/12/13 11:59 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6
P
Active BB Member
Offline
Active BB Member
P
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6
Long time no post on this topic but will give it a try anyway.

Got a line on the smaller 331cu" big six. But of course not much info on these floating around.

Mainly concerned over the weight of these monsters, as would be finally put to rest in a custom P15. Of course anything will fit anywhere given the will and $$.

But I need to ship this bad boy from the right coast out to SoCal, unless anybody has a lead on a more local complete unit.

Anyway, since you've had your hands on one, what do you think it might weigh? I've read anything from 1,500 lb to 500lb.

Last edited by plywoody; 01/12/13 11:59 PM.
plywoody #73720 01/21/13 07:51 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 140
Contributor
Offline
Contributor
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 140

This pic was from this site sometime ago. 413 cu in?


regards,Rod

walpolla #73721 01/21/13 09:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
1000 Post Club
****
Offline
1000 Post Club
****
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
That's mine. I don't know how to link to threads on this site but here is the name of a thread with links to more MOPAR flathead info. Maybe you can cut and paste it or search it.
Chrysler Industrial & other big Mopar Flathead 6s

And this: '50s Dodge truck 2X1 manifold & duel exhaust.

My big six weighs closer to a ton than to 500 lbs. It was all my '89 GMC 3/4 ton wanted and much more than I'll ever put in my '53 1/2 ton again.

Last edited by Beater of the Pack; 01/21/13 09:14 PM.

"I wonder if God created man because he was disappointed in the monkey?" Mark Twain
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 140
Contributor
Offline
Contributor
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 140
Ca'nt find the first one you mention, but here is the one where you haul it home.
Somewhere I have more pix of it, just have to search a bit harder.
Your picture link (Picasaweb)in the thread is now dead, so unless you post a new set,no-one can see them.

"50s Dodge truck 2X1 manifold & duel exhaust."

CLICK HERE

regards,Rod

Last edited by walpolla; 01/22/13 01:28 AM.
walpolla #73734 01/22/13 04:06 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
1000 Post Club
****
Offline
1000 Post Club
****
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
OK, here's the other one.
LINK


"I wonder if God created man because he was disappointed in the monkey?" Mark Twain
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,669
Likes: 42
1000 Post Club
****
Offline
1000 Post Club
****
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,669
Likes: 42
Give us some dimensions Beater, how long is it from where the bellhousing mates up, to the front of the water pump flange, and how tall from the bottom of the oil pan to the top of the breathers.



Class III CNC Machinist/Programmer
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 831
Major Contributor
*****
Offline
Major Contributor
*****
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 831
Strictly a truck engine from what I can find.,
Larger trucks used another family of in-line flathead six cylinder engines. There was a 331 cubic inch and a mammoth 413 cubic inch lugger was available in the T series and up. There may have been another engine in the 370 CID range, but I am not sure about that. The 331 was highly regarded in trucking circles as a durable, hard working engine. The 413 was equipped with two single barrel carburetors and had a very large appetite for gasoline. It was noted for twisting the drive sprocket off the end of the camshaft.

Original is at Chrysler's Flathead Engine http://www.allpar.com/mopar/flat.html#ixzz2IiskQHYf
Follow us: @allparcom on Twitter | allparcom on Facebook


'45 Ford PU
66 Valiant wagon, leaning tower of power.
79 Chevy C10 w/250
02 PT Cruiser Convertable
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
1000 Post Club
****
Offline
1000 Post Club
****
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
For sure a heavy truck engine. From what I have found the 331 is just two clicks below the 413 and appears to have the same outside dimensions. The in between is 376.9. They all use the same size bearings. The 331 has a 3 3/4 bore and a 5" stroke. 280 ft lbs at 1600 rpms. It would be legal in the FX classes.

Some 413 specs:
Bore& Stroke 4 1/16 X 5 5/16
413 ci
171 hp @ 3,200 rmp
424 ft. lbs. @ 1,200 rpm
8.5 to 1 CR
12 ports
head 9" X 30: 33 studs
Overall length Dampener to trans 48"
Bell housing to timing cove surface 33 3/4"
Pan sump to top of carbs 34"


"I wonder if God created man because he was disappointed in the monkey?" Mark Twain
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 493
P
Contributor
****
Offline
Contributor
****
P
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 493
Why didn't Chrysler just use this two carb'd 413 rather than go through the time and trouble of designing the bent eight that they did use in their 300 series cars in the sixties?
Was an oil filter that important? Or, was it too hard to rig up power steering to the six? I mean they only picked up about 200 ft/lbs, and it cost them another valve cover to do so.
I guess thats why they never made it to # 1 or even #2 in sales-too many poor upper management decisions -- Walter P. must have been on vacation that day.

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
1000 Post Club
****
Offline
1000 Post Club
****
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
A car chassis would not keep the pan off the ground. Power steering is no problem it ran a two cylinder air compressor for brakes that mounts to the left front of the block. It weighs about 100 pounds. I need to get back to the car museum in Reno and take a better look at the White Flyer. It has a 500+" four cylinder! Some of our members volunteer there and Al Abrams is the guy who got the White running for the Pebble Beach Concourse.


"I wonder if God created man because he was disappointed in the monkey?" Mark Twain
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
1000 Post Club
****
Offline
1000 Post Club
****
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 47
White-Thomas what the heck?


"I wonder if God created man because he was disappointed in the monkey?" Mark Twain
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  stock49, will6er 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 308 guests, and 36 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Skulptorchaz, Ryan Clark, chevy454, TCH54, beansprout01
6,778 Registered Users
Sponsored Advertisement
Sponsored Advertisement
This Space is Available
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5