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I am not sure maybe scott will chime in i know it is affected by the fuel vapors in with the air because its has more mass and inertia i don't think the harmonics are quite as bad since its going through air with more density and the runners can be shorter? I could have it all backwards.. \:\/


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What kid of fuel spark control are you guys using multi port intakes

I know there are a few of you out there!

Thanks ahead of time
Happy inlining


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Im sure there is some baseline for calculating this, but early manifold manufacturers usually just took a factory manifold and added more carb flanges or just grafted a 4 bbl flange onto them without any additional engineering or modifications to the runners or plenum and called it good. Until Clifford came along and began increasing the runner size and plenums in their manifolds that this trend changed.
So for the Packard, I would likely follow the same path by using the factory runner length and volume since this is going the be a relatively low RPM engine, and just add additional carb flanges or have a one off intake cast for it.



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 Originally Posted By: lowboygmc
What kid of fuel spark control are you guys using multi port intakes


I'm using a Megasquirt 3. The details can be found on my Hacking together an OHC thread.

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How har was it to get the mega squirt set up?


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It's my third install so find it fairly straight forward and simple. The hardware side of things (fabricating the sensor brackets, mounting the trigger wheel, etc) the difficult side as I'm not much of a fabricator and certainly not a mechanical engineer.

What makes the megasquirt simple in my mind is it works with dang near any kind/brand of sensor for each input. It's not picky.

IMO, the hardest part of the install is setting up the ignition settings, once the ignition settings are setup it's pretty simple. This was the first engine I fired up with a megasquirt without previously running it with a carb, and it was also the first engine I setup that I ran distributorless without previously had running. I was quite pleased when the first time I commanded fuel and spark at the same time it fired up instantly.

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Is there more involved running an hei unit i wiuld like to go megasquirt on my peoject jist haven't obsorbed enough info on it to pull the trigger


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You need to use a 10 gauge wire. Needs to see full battery voltage.

MBHD


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You have to use 10 guage on everything?


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 Originally Posted By: lowboygmc
You have to use 10 guage on everything?


Just the power lead to the distributor.


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I have pretty heavy wire i don't remember what i had ran to it when it was carbed and being broke in

What kind of destructions come with the ms3 are they good if any?


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 Originally Posted By: lowboygmc
What kind of destructions come with the ms3 are they good if any?


All kinds if you tune it wrong! =P

The main source of all information for the megasquirts is the first link below. Their are so many options because it can fit dang near everything you have to be willing to learn or willing to write large checks to someone to do the work. I like learning. I recommend downloading Tuner Studio for free, and loading up the latest version of MegaSquirt in it and just go through the menu's to familarize yourself with it. That can be downloaded at the second link. If you like fully analyzing data and want to fully customize the gauge layouts I think the registration cost is well worth it. It can be purchased well after you have it running and know you want to stick with it(datalogging and reviewing is free, but there are extra auto-tuning and data processing features available). The third link is where I buy my MegaSquirt and associated wiring harness from. It's a bit more money, but I like the relay board, and keep hounding them for an improved one, but I have used them on two installs and tried my hand on my Firebird to go without it (another first for me with the OHC L6), and I'm on the fence between setting up my own relays and fuses versus using the relay board. I can certainly do it cheaper than purchasing the relay board and cable, but it was nice having it centralized, particularly for my first install.

http://msextra.com/
http://www.tunerstudio.com/
https://www.diyautotune.com/

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Randal, I may have a relay board that I first had on the Stude. If I still have it, you can have it. I will check and see if it's still in the shop, will let you know.

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As a total novice I built a Megasquirt for a project that never got done. The MS was completed and I fired my old '89 GMC with it but it was my computer skills that made things tough for me. Some day I'll get back to it. Although the number of pieces and tiny solder joints were intimidating I did it. If you can read the instructions for a model car kit you can do this. You really don't have to understand how it works just follow directions and learn as much of the special vocabulary as you can so you know how to ask questions and understand the answers.



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nice beater motivated me to do it i just need to figure out how the fuel injection work i think i will have to run semi sequential on this with three pairs of injectors 16 52 34 hope fully Randal will chime in and let me know

really would like to tune my own engine although it may be difficult i think with determination i will be able to work this one out! hopefully it doesn't take forever

some stuff i read makes me feel really dumb... haha but on the other hand some things i really understand;) will ms work with a regular hei unit to control timing? and do i need a crank trigger and cam or just crank if I'm going semi sequential also ports will be divided just fyi


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nice beater motivated me to do it i just need to figure out how the fuel injection work i think i will have to run semi sequential on this with three pairs of injectors 16 52 34 hope fully Randal will chime in and let me know

really would like to tune my own engine although it may be difficult i think with determination i will be able to work this one out! hopefully it doesn't take forever

some stuff i read makes me feel really dumb... haha but on the other hand some things i really understand;) will ms work with a regular hei unit to control timing? and do i need a crank trigger and cam or just crank if I'm going semi sequential also ports will be divided just fyi


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Tuning is easy if you do it in steps.

First step is simply getting the engine running. It is far easier to tune from rich to lean than lean to rich. Lock out the timing on the timing table (or there is an option under ignition that says "fixed timing" or "Table" and set it to fixed, to like 15*). Set the required fuel value based on your injector and engine sizes (it calculates it for you with that information).

I like to set the lower left corner of the fuel table to a flat 30, then the top right corner to 100 and use the interpolate tool from about 2,000rpm up and 50kPa up. Then fire it up. You'll probably have to pedal it some to keep it running, but as soon as the AFR's start reading you'll be able to tell if you need to increase or decrease the 30. Once it is at a stable idle at a reasonable AFR (like 13:1 to 14:1), let it warm up to operating temperature. It may lean out as it warms up due to the warm up enrichment turning off. So watch for that and richen it up as needed to keep it running. While it's warming up, check the timing with a timing light and verify it matches what the MS is commanding, if not make the necessary adjustment to the Trigger Angle until it matches.

Once warmed up, you're ready to tune. You may need to adjust your kPa and RPM bin's to match your engine's operating range. I have no problem sharing my fuel, spark and AFR tables, but understand the kPa and RPM bins may need shifting. For reference, I started my Firebird up on my Skylark's 455 tune, lol, then adjusted from there.

When in doubt, the MS3 has very quick AFR correcting abilities, so you can technically turn on the EGO corrections, set the controls to a lot of authority and come on at low temperature and it'll meet the AFR's you specify in a table. That can get you driving fairly quickly, but is a LARGE crutch. I may of done that to get my Firebird driving shortly after start up =)

Back to tuning, it's pretty difficult to hurt the engine at idle and low rpm and loads. Get the AFR's working nice with gentle increases in throttle while in neutral/Park. Once there, you'll get a feel for the slope that the fuel table will want. You'll want to turn the timing table back on if you are controlling timing and have a very conservative table, like no higher that 32* for now. Then put it in gear and make sure it keeps the AFR's decent and doesn't stall by adjusting the fuel. Then give it a little engine braking, adjust, a little more, adjust, and that'll get it so with gentle throttle from a stop it should drive nice. From there go for a drive and be gentle on the throttle (don't put yourself in a place you may have to hammer the throttle, like a busy street if you can help it). If you have a helper, have them adjust the fuel as you are driving or you can datalog it and see afterwards where it leans or richens up and adjust it. This will get you a decent tune at part throttle and up to say 3,000rpm depending how you drive it.

Now you'll want to work on the accel enrichment from the AE menu. I use pure TPS when one is available. From an idle, hit the throttle at various rates and watch the dot on the graph/chart. If the engine leans out or *POPS*, move the point up where ever that dot went, if it bogs, move the point down. Once the accel enrichment is decent, back to tuning fuel.

By now you should have a decent idea on the slope of the fuel table and make a decent estimate of what WOT and high RPM fuel values should be. So raise them up to match the slope, then add another five to ten points to it to make sure it goes very rich. Then go out and test by watching the AFR's or datalogging and reviewing, slowly lowering the amount of fuel until you are happy with the AFR at WOT across the rpm range. Then you can start on the timing table.

This process can take a full day or spread it out over a week or two depending how much perfection you are trying to achieve. Even my first time EFI'ing a car (my Buick) I was driving it around town the afternoon of the morning I got it first started.

If you want the MS to control timing with an HEI it can do it in either batch fire mode by simply hooking it up to the pickup coil, or if you want semi-sequential you have to have a crank trigger. If you want full sequential you'll need a crank trigger and modify the HEI to be a cam sensor.

The semi-sequential pairing is fine. And actually, since installing the engine in my Firebird my cam sensor has a fault and isn't reading, so I've been running in semi-sequential mode (it does it automatically when it can't read the cam) since I started driving it. I've been too busy/lazy to figure it out, but I'm suspecting the sensor failed based on my minimal troubleshooting of it.

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 Originally Posted By: TheSilverBuick
Tuning is easy if you do it in steps.

First step is simply getting the engine running. It is far easier to tune from rich to lean than lean to rich. Lock out the timing on the timing table (or there is an option under ignition that says "fixed timing" or "Table" and set it to fixed, to like 15*). Set the required fuel value based on your injector and engine sizes (it calculates it for you with that information).

I like to set the lower left corner of the fuel table to a flat 30, then the top right corner to 100 and use the interpolate tool from about 2,000rpm up and 50kPa up. Then fire it up. You'll probably have to pedal it some to keep it running, but as soon as the AFR's start reading you'll be able to tell if you need to increase or decrease the 30. Once it is at a stable idle at a reasonable AFR (like 13:1 to 14:1), let it warm up to operating temperature. It may lean out as it warms up due to the warm up enrichment turning off. So watch for that and richen it up as needed to keep it running. While it's warming up, check the timing with a timing light and verify it matches what the MS is commanding, if not make the necessary adjustment to the Trigger Angle until it matches.

Once warmed up, you're ready to tune. You may need to adjust your kPa and RPM bin's to match your engine's operating range. I have no problem sharing my fuel, spark and AFR tables, but understand the kPa and RPM bins may need shifting. For reference, I started my Firebird up on my Skylark's 455 tune, lol, then adjusted from there.

When in doubt, the MS3 has very quick AFR correcting abilities, so you can technically turn on the EGO corrections, set the controls to a lot of authority and come on at low temperature and it'll meet the AFR's you specify in a table. That can get you driving fairly quickly, but is a LARGE crutch. I may of done that to get my Firebird driving shortly after start up =)

Back to tuning, it's pretty difficult to hurt the engine at idle and low rpm and loads. Get the AFR's working nice with gentle increases in throttle while in neutral/Park. Once there, you'll get a feel for the slope that the fuel table will want. You'll want to turn the timing table back on if you are controlling timing and have a very conservative table, like no higher that 32* for now. Then put it in gear and make sure it keeps the AFR's decent and doesn't stall by adjusting the fuel. Then give it a little engine braking, adjust, a little more, adjust, and that'll get it so with gentle throttle from a stop it should drive nice. From there go for a drive and be gentle on the throttle (don't put yourself in a place you may have to hammer the throttle, like a busy street if you can help it). If you have a helper, have them adjust the fuel as you are driving or you can datalog it and see afterwards where it leans or richens up and adjust it. This will get you a decent tune at part throttle and up to say 3,000rpm depending how you drive it.

Now you'll want to work on the accel enrichment from the AE menu. I use pure TPS when one is available. From an idle, hit the throttle at various rates and watch the dot on the graph/chart. If the engine leans out or *POPS*, move the point up where ever that dot went, if it bogs, move the point down. Once the accel enrichment is decent, back to tuning fuel.

By now you should have a decent idea on the slope of the fuel table and make a decent estimate of what WOT and high RPM fuel values should be. So raise them up to match the slope, then add another five to ten points to it to make sure it goes very rich. Then go out and test by watching the AFR's or datalogging and reviewing, slowly lowering the amount of fuel until you are happy with the AFR at WOT across the rpm range. Then you can start on the timing table.

This process can take a full day or spread it out over a week or two depending how much perfection you are trying to achieve. Even my first time EFI'ing a car (my Buick) I was driving it around town the afternoon of the morning I got it first started.

If you want the MS to control timing with an HEI it can do it in either batch fire mode by simply hooking it up to the pickup coil, or if you want semi-sequential you have to have a crank trigger. If you want full sequential you'll need a crank trigger and modify the HEI to be a cam sensor.

The semi-sequential pairing is fine. And actually, since installing the engine in my Firebird my cam sensor has a fault and isn't reading, so I've been running in semi-sequential mode (it does it automatically when it can't read the cam) since I started driving it. I've been too busy/lazy to figure it out, but I'm suspecting the sensor failed based on my minimal troubleshooting of it.


If you are not too far from Beater, maybe you could help him get the Megasquirt working.
Just a thought.

MBHD


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Glendale is like 12 hours from here. I'm not close to anything =/

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Beater is in northern nevada i'm in glendale haha thanks mate really appreciate all the jnfo you just layed out there i am going to print it for my records

To keep it short since its bed time for me what is batch firing and out of the 3 injection options which woul be best for me semi secquential and have 3 pairs of two injectors?

Is there a lot o wiring for the ms? Whoch version of ms would i need the 3 to controle timig an fuel and be able to handle boost? I am not escared to solder so i can get a disassembled kit for less monies

Thanks a head of time!


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 Originally Posted By: TheSilverBuick
Glendale is like 12 hours from here. I'm not close to anything =/


I believe Beater lives in Northern Nevada.
Might be closer?

MBHD


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 Originally Posted By: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank
 Originally Posted By: TheSilverBuick
Glendale is like 12 hours from here. I'm not close to anything =/


I believe Beater lives in Northern Nevada.
Might be closer?

MBHD


D'oh, right. I seem to recall he is near Reno (5 hours), but if he's around Elko (2.5 hours) or such I'd gladly lend a hand.

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I seem to recall him saying Carson City is just down the mountain from him.



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So i have been looking i am goin to call today bit i think a mega squirt 2 will beable to handle fuel and spark for my project its also a bit cheaper and i THINK that it will allow a knock sensor aswell for insurance!

But i don't think my gm 4 pin hei will work for will except the computer controled spark i think i need a 7 or an 8 pin gm hei

Its kind of a pain to find info on megasquirt


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My vote would be to skip using a 4 pin, 7 pin or 8 pin module all together.

Ignition settings are by far the most confusing aspect of MegaSquirt. Once the ignition input and output settings are right, everything else is cake.

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2-Extra_HEI.htm

7-pin HEI


8-pin HEI


http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2-Extra_Dizzy.htm
http://www.msextra.com/doc/general/tachin.html#vr

Using points for a tach signal


or run without the power wire and use the internal pullup jumper on the MS board



and the coil wiring for spark control


Or my favorite, how it's wired in the full wiring diagram and two wires to the pickup coil in the distributor (grey line to pin#24)


It IS written in a way over complicated manner. That is because MegaSquirt is designed to be very flexible and work on dang near anything. For our simple old engines:

You only need two wires to control timing. Pin#24 is the tach signal in from the points, pick up coil, crank trigger, etc. Then Pin #36 goes to the negative side of the ignition coil to control dwell and spark timing. Done. Make sure the jumpers on the MS board are set up for the input you are using (just stick with the VR input, it handles practically anything), and set your coil dwell to 2.5ms and you'll be golden.

The 7 and 8 pin modules just add extra wires and an extra module.

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Hmm, I hadn't posted this picture in this thread yet.

This is the setup I've been running in my Skylark since 2009, though in 2012 the pickup coil was converted to a cam sensor, but looks the same as pictured. Wire and all.


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So you need to turn a points distributor into a reluctor? Or what i like the wiring diagrams thanks silver buick but how does it actually get to the spark? Are you saying it can control a 4 pin hei dizzy?


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The lobes on a points distributor is a reluctor, just a mechanical one. Connect Pin#24 to the points.

You can control timing with a 4-pin HEI if you ditch the 4-pin module and connect Pin#24 (like in the picture) to the pickup coil and ground the other side like in my distributor.

^^ Both these methods tell the MegaSquirt RPM and when a cylinder is at TDC.

To get spark, connect Pin#36 to the negative side of an ignition coil. If the cylinder type, just connect to the negative side terminal, if an HEI, spade connector to the Negative side terminal (left side, closest to the cap). On both coils, hook a switched 12v to the positive side. It's best if the postitive side is relayed from the Fuel Pump wire, so the coils don't stay energized with the key on, engine off. It can burn them up (much like a points distributor can).

Then follow the setting of the Trigger Angle directions to get the timing commanded to match the timing seen with the timing light. Once they match you can control ignition timing.

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Do i have to do anything to the mechanical and vaccum portion of the hei?


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Yes, both have to be disabled.

You can simply unplug the vacuum line on the vacuum advance to disable it, or you can remove it like I did in my photo.

The mechanical advance needs to be locked out. I removed the weights and drilled holes and inserted roll pins to lock it out. Others have wire tied or installed ridiculously stiff springs in place of the springs. Another nifty method I've seen is using a small piece of aluminum and drilling 4 properly sized and spaced holes in it and sliding it over the posts the advance springs would go on. Locks it right in place and the rotor makes sure it doesn't go anywhere.

These two modifications go for any engine, points or electric, that utilized a vacuum and mechanical advance system.

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Alrigh well i might work on that then thank you so much randal you really have helped me a lot i think i'll stick woth m 4 pin as i already own it and just jump the modual and make that the reluctor

Sure am lucky you are here


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Do i nee to keepthe compasitor in the dizzy also i see you only have one wire coming in is that still on the plug for the cap or where is that coming from?


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That one grey wire goes to Pin#24 on the MegaSquirt, like the diagram. No capacitor needed.

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Cool so i can tap into the brown wire and run it to pin24 i'm waiting for me mea squirt to show up just looking for projects to passthe time!


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No, that piece there requires the 4-pin module to plug into. Get rid of that whole assembly in your hand, and get rid of the module. Use a spade connector on the wire that will go to Pin#24 and slide it into the pickup coil's plug like I did. It doesn't really even matter which side of the pickup coil. Then the other side needs to be grounded, which you can see I did with a short piece of wire and a spade and hole connector. It ain't pretty, but it works.

Your pickup coil will have a bigger plug than mine in the picture because mine is a 7-pin pickup coil. The ONLY difference between the 4-pin and 7-pin pickup coil is the size of the plug.

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Actually, I forget, are you controlling fuel at the same time your are upgrading spark control? I recommend picking either fuel or spark to control first and then move to the other one once you are comfortable with the one you have started on. Makes it so you only have to troubleshoot half the system if problems arise, being as it's your first one.

If you just start with fuel control, and leave timing control alone, aka mechanical and vacuum, 4-pin module, for a while, then just connect Pin#24 to the TACH port on the HEI cap and call it done until you go to upgrade for spark control. Then follow everything I've been saying in previous posts for spark control. If you are leaving the carb in place for a while, then do spark control first.

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I guess is would help of my truck was drivable too wouldn't it thats why i figired i could tune it while i am gathering the parts tht make my truck go and stop


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It's just easier to troubleshoot if you have problems getting it running, or to stay running, if you are only controlling fuel OR spark. My OHC engine was the first engine I started from scratch, without previously running the engine, that I was controlling both fuel and spark. It was my third MegaSquirt install.

Looking at some of my YouTube videos, here is one from when I went distributorless on my Buick 455, you can see the grey wire coming off the pickup coil, which is now acting as a cam sensor for my MegaSquirt.
http://youtu.be/iGSrYLsvxPM

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Posts: 551
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Sweet video! Maybe when i'm done building my intake deviders i'll slap the head back on for good( i hope install my cab intake and exhaust mani get the spark control working while i finish building my intake an fuelinjection/ turbo and see about getting the fuel going then! I still need some minor brake parts to put my clutch in a drive line and a steering column i need a whote board in my shop!!


Josh
72 gmc lwb air ride 5 speed (soon) turbo 292 II# 6102
Joined: Nov 2012
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Oh and since i'm going for spark first i built a piece pf alluminum to stop the mechanical advance and have a piece made that holds the reluctor where it hooks up to vacumm advance

Mechanical shown here



Josh
72 gmc lwb air ride 5 speed (soon) turbo 292 II# 6102
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