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#82455 09/18/14 08:34 PM
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efi-diy Offline OP
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Recently I had an chance to use a SDS EM2 system - a bit of feedback.

Keep in mind this is an older model so I do not know if it applies to what SDS is currently selling.

- there is no altitude compensation in it
- the primary fuel curve is rpm based with a modifier for engine vacumm

- driving from 3500' to 5900' at Denver then to 700' at Tulsa OK. we were constantly adjusting the fuel curve

- the fuel adjustment is really crude compared to a system that has a 3D fuel map (just about every other system out there).
- on this unit there is no place to add in vacumm advance timing - just retard for boost.
- the timing is rpm based only for NA applications.

The transitions on/off the throttle had to be adjusted using the mixture knob.. We just could not keep up with the different operating conditions.

The owner has used the system for > 15 year so know it quite well.

My opinion: for the cost of a megasquirt ($400 pre-built) and a used laptop ($100 to $150 locally) I would not go the SDS route.

For applications that run at a constant altitude and power setting its ok but that is not what we do when we drive around is it?

Last edited by efi-diy; 09/18/14 08:37 PM.

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It sounds that for its time it was a good entry level product, but in today's tech world it is outdated. For the cost of the megasquirt stuff and its added bells and whistles it would be a no-brainer as to what would be the better system.



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I do not know how old that set-up is. Sounds really old though. Must have been there first system?
My friend could tell me how old it is.

If you would want to read up on there newer products?

http://www.sdsefi.com/

One easy thing to get familar with the SDS systems is that the hand held programmer is easy to use.
The programmer is ready to use @ all times. Don't need a bulky laptop to wait to boot up.

Most people will have no clue how to approach the fueling & timing tables on a lap top.

Really,,, guys new to a megasquirt will need a classroom session/s on just how to use it.

I use code 59 on my Syclone w/Tuner Pro RT.
http://www.code59.org/
http://www.tunerpro.net/
I use the factory ECU. It works great.
Tuning with this set-up was pretty hard for me to understand initially until I had my friend show me the ropes.

I believe code 59 & Tuner Pro RT software is much harder to use than a Megasquirt system.
But if I had nobody to show me how to use it, I do not think I would have ever figured it out.

Now I can Pass smog, run good @ a track, get better mileage, all from tuning with the factory ECU.

Not sure if you are close to SDS, but maybe see what they have to offer?

Local clients please note that we are located at Springbank Airport, just west of the city.

Racetech Inc.
#5- 304 Noorduyn Park
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
T3Z 3S8
Ph. Sales: 403-671-4015
Ph. Tech: 403-453-7687 If tech line is busy, call the sales number above. fax: 403-453-7687 (phone this number first to get us to set the fax which is off site)


It would be a good comparison of a megasquirt set-up that is 15+ years old to that SDS system you had the pleasure to use. sick

MBHD


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I'm just reporting on what I saw, the hand held tuner box is not intuitive - you have to read the manual or watch to figure out what to do with it and if your road tuning (2 persons) by the time you get to a load point on the tuner box, the car has gone way past it.

These days once you have the car idling on MS - turn on auto tune and let it build the fuel map for you. This does require a good wideband such as the AEM unit.

Now if your computer challenged then you should seek help to get the initial start up done.

10 mins with tuner studio (MS tuning s/w) and its intuitive.


I'm not saying that the SDS does not work - it does we have 5000 road miles to prove it... its just not very good for building a non straight RPM fuel curve - its just can't do it.

For a vehicle that is raced/driving at one location - its fine. Maybe the newer systems are better but you pay more $$$ for less capability.

Last edited by efi-diy; 09/19/14 01:02 AM.

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I am thinking that SDS set-up was their first system? confused

Just curious, what Megasquirt system was available 15+ years ago?
What features did it have? Just for an apples to apples comparison.
Comparing a 20 year old SDS system to a modern EFI system are not good comparisons I.M.O. shocked

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Here is what my friend had said about this subject.
MBHD

"Feel free to post the below response.



The SDS EM2 is nearly twenty years old. Yes, twenty years. The poster stated that he knows the owner has had the system for more than fifteen years, so he obviously is aware that the system is at least fifteen years old technology. Electronics change so rapidly that now we consider a piece of hardware a few years old as 'out dated'. How many people are running stand alone EFI systems on their cars which are near twenty years old? I fail to understand why someone would even consider comparing a twenty year old EFI system with anything current. But, for fun, here is some additional information, to help get the facts straight.



Altitude compensation is not needed with a MAP based system. MAF based systems benefit from altitude compensation. If one needs to adjust the tune, while driving, changing altitude or not, then the tune needs to be improved. This holds true for any EFI system.



The SDS primary fuel curve is based on RPM and engine load [manifold vacuum]. The manifold vacuum is not a 'modifier', but an integral part of the fuel curve calculations. Both RPM and engine load are dependant on each other. The modifiers are engine temperature, air temperature, battery voltage, throttle position, tuning knob position (if used) and O2 feedback (if enabled).



A 3-D fuel map was mentioned with other EFI systems. And what is this fuel map based on? RPM and engine load; the same as the SDS. How then can one system be considered 'primitive' while the other system considered not primitive? Both systems use the same parameters to generate the fuel map. A 3-D screen based fuel map is nice if you want to view a graphical representation of your fuel map. This is fine, but does not make you a better tuner, nor does it make you smarter when it comes to understanding what your engine is doing and why it is doing it. It does not help tune your engine. It is just another way to enter parameters to build and develop a correct fuel curve for the engine.



If someone desired to view a 3-D fuel map of the SDS, that would be easily done with any spreadsheet program or graphing software.



Vacuum advance timing, as well as boost retard is available on the twenty year old EM2. Same holds true with RPM based timing. Vacuum advance is programmed in the same way as boost retard.



I do not understand what the poster states when he wrote "the timing is rpm based only for NA applications". He previously stated there was boost retard, but then contradicts himself and states "timing is rpm based only for NA applications". Allow me to hopefully clarify this. You can add timing or remove timing based on RPM. You can add timing or remove timing based on engine load [manifold vacuum]. The two parameters function independently. In this manner, the total timing at any point on the map is the arithmetic sum of both the RPM timing and the load timing; same as any other EFI system. You can have ANY timing you like at any RPM [advance or retard] and you can enter in any timing at any load [vacuum advance, vacuum retard, boost retard or boost advance].



If one needs to verify what I state, they can visit the SDS site and review the EM2 programming instructions. Yes, SDS still has this almost twenty year old information on their site. Take a look http://www.sdsefi.com/em2def.htm#EM-2D I guess it comes in handy sometimes. lol.



If adjustments of any settings are needed to account for transitions on/off the throttle, then someone needs to work on the tune. This is true for any system.



I respectably disagree with the statement that the owner 'knows the system quite well'. I do not know the owner, nor the application, but based on the below statements, it clearly shows that the owner does not understand the system, regardless of how long the owner has had it installed, which in this case, at least fifteen years.



For example, here is a real world case in point of a properly tuned fuel curve: A friend took a road trip, which included Death Valley California [280 feet below sea level] to Denver, Colorado, [5,280 feet]. The highest elevation was over the Eisenhower Tunnel, which is 11,158 feet. The vehicle is running an SDS EFI system. At no time during the trip was it required to adjust the fuel curve or any other settings. This was over a total of 11,438 foot elevation change. This is an SDS EM4 system, but the programming and features which we are discussing are the same as the EM2.



I understand that, we tend to come to the [incorrect] conclusion that if something we are doing is not working, then it is the fault of the 'product' and not something we are doing. This is especially true when we have lived with the product for enough time that we think we understand it. We continue to do the same things, the same [incorrect] way and therefore, we obtain the same [incorrect] results. We blame this on the product and not on our lack of understanding of the matter at hand.



SDS, Haltec, Holley, Megasquirt, G.M., Electromotive, Edelbrock, F.A.S.T., Nissan, Marelli, Wolf, and others are just some of the EFI systems I have worked with. They are all good and they all do what they need to do, once properly tuned. They all supply the correct amount of fuel and ignition to the engine. No EFI system will work well if not properly set-up or tuned. This is not the fault of the EFI system, but the fault of the installer, owner or tuner.

I hope this does not come across the wrong way, as I am just stating the facts. SDS EFI has been around for longer than most other aftermarket, stand alone EFI systems. For a company to be in business for this many years and still offer the same core product, speaks loudly regarding not only the quality of the product, but its functionality. If the product did not work, as stated by the OP, then it would be impossible for any company survive for over twenty years in a highly competitive arena, such as EFI.

The SDS system is very straight forward in all operational aspects, set-up and tuning wise. If someone is having a difficult time obtaining a proper tune with an SDS system, I wonder what their learning curve will be with a lap-top based system which requires many different variables, tables, pull down menus and check boxes to be properly selected to achieve their goals. This assumes your lap-top communicates with your EFI computer and there is no software, hardware, com port, interface cable, dongle, BIOS, O/S or other issue preventing the EFI computer and the lap-top from establishing communication.

As long as we are having fun here, I will offer [free] tuning assistance to the owner of this vehicle. If he would like a hand in getting his fifteen year project properly tuned, have him PM you his contact information and then forward it to me.

Ray"


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This has turned into a pissing contest - I'm not going to comment further.


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Quote:
Altitude compensation is not needed with a MAP based system. MAF based systems benefit from altitude compensation. If one needs to adjust the tune, while driving, changing altitude or not, then the tune needs to be improved. This holds true for any EFI system.


I got to this sentence and quit reading as it's utter utter crap. I'm with Mark, it'll just be a pissing contest at this point.

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Originally Posted By: TheSilverBuick
Quote:
Altitude compensation is not needed with a MAP based system. MAF based systems benefit from altitude compensation. If one needs to adjust the tune, while driving, changing altitude or not, then the tune needs to be improved. This holds true for any EFI system.


I got to this sentence and quit reading as it's utter utter crap. I'm with Mark, it'll just be a pissing contest at this point.


With no explanation of why you disagree?
I'd like to hear why you say it is utter utter crap.

We are talking about the SDS system & other EFI systems in general.
Is this a open forum to talk about such items?

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Every mainstream EFI system, including OEM's, run atmospheric correction factors.

My personal testing, and I'm sure Mark's personal testing as well, show when the atmospheric correction settings are turned off, you have to manually adjust the tune with elevation, for the exact same pressure and rpm bin. There is more effect on and engine fuel mixture from atmospheric pressure changes than just changes to the manifold vacuum(pressure).

Ray is wrong, he'll say I'm wrong, blah blah and blahs aka pissing match. OEM's spend millions of dollars on their tunes, and still use a correction factor, some how I don't think their "tune is off".

Last edited by TheSilverBuick; 09/20/14 04:04 PM.
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Just an observation.

I do not see where my friend said to turn off the atmospheric correction settings.

He is away right now so I can't speak for him.

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Originally Posted By: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank
Here is what my friend had said about this subject.
MBHD

"Feel free to post the below response.



....

Altitude compensation is not needed with a MAP based system. MAF based systems benefit from altitude compensation. If one needs to adjust the tune, while driving, changing altitude or not, then the tune needs to be improved. This holds true for any EFI system.


....

Ray"


If you just copy and pasted, it says right there.

Last edited by TheSilverBuick; 09/24/14 11:24 AM.
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He will gladly answer any of your rebuttals when he returns from his road trip.

MBHD


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efi-diy

my friends offer to help get your friends tune still stands.

Ray, does really know the SDS systems inside & out.

Your friend could talk w/Ray on the phone or even email him if he'd like.

Ray is a stand up guy and great person.

MBHD


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Originally Posted By: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank
He will gladly answer any of your rebuttals when he returns from his road trip.

MBHD


No need, at least not for me, I'm out of this thread. It's a predictable pissing match coming as Marc pointed out and easily averted by stepping out now.

Last edited by TheSilverBuick; 09/25/14 02:41 PM.
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Originally Posted By: TheSilverBuick
Originally Posted By: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank
He will gladly answer any of your rebuttals when he returns from his road trip.

MBHD


No need, at least not for me, I'm out of this thread. It's a predictable pissing match coming as Marc pointed out and easily averted by stepping out now.


I really can't see this topic as a pissing match.

If anything, I think this is a good topic that should be discussed further.

I am open to listening about EFI systems & see what they have to offer.

If I give wrong/misinformed information about any topic, I would hope someone to correct me.
I do like to learn as much as I can about EFI systems.

MBHD


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Originally Posted By: efi-diy

This has turned into a pissing contest - I'm not going to comment further.


Sorry, if my attempt to add clarity to some misinformation came across as anything but trying to be helpful. That was my only intent. Unfortunately, as I read the responses I see I missed the mark completely.

Pissing match? I do not see how having a discussion of the facts, or one’s opinion for that matter, could be construed as a pissing match.

I can see how there could be some confusion with the information, as my comments were specific to the SDS system and may not be applicable to other systems. So my comment stating “Altitude compensation is not needed with a MAP based system” was specifically related to the SDS system. If we were discussing the SDS system in an Alpha-N configuration, then I would not have made this comment.

Regarding a Speed-Density based system and barometric compensation as related to other systems such as OEM, Megasquirt, Haltech, etc.; we can discuss why the OEMs have the tuning strategies they have, and why other systems may or may not need a separate sensor [and tuning table] to compensate for barometric changes. For now, lets set these aside and keep the scope of this discussion related to the SDS system. This will help keep the discussion on-track and hopefully, minimize any additional confusion.

Not including the ‘altitude compensation’ discussion, I addressed your other specific comments [misunderstandings] regarding the SDS system. Given that you have not responded to these, I can only assume that you stand corrected on these points and we can move along and address the ‘altitude compensation’ question.

Another comment was that it is 'utter utter crap' that a separate barometric sensor and/or ‘altitude compensation’ is not needed with the SDS system.

If you would be so kind and allow me to ask a few questions as this will help me better understand how you arrived at the comment that it is 'utter utter crap', when, in this matter, dealing with the SDS system and not other EFI systems.

In my post I mentioned that during a recent road trip a SDS equipped vehicle ran up to a 11,438 foot elevation change with no adjustments to the fuel map. If what you claim is true and accurate regarding the SDS, then how could this vehicle make the 14,000 foot climb with no adjustments to the fuel map? I understand that this is second hand information and you can not verify this, so lets jump to some facts which can be verified.

Given the length of time and the number of SDS systems installed on land based vehicles, it is estimated that the system has logged well over 20 million hours of operation. If the system worked as poorly as you describe, how could this company still be in business after 20 years of supplying the same basic product?

The SDS systems are also used on [experimental] aircraft. There is a large installed base of airplanes running the SDS system. The total operation time is well over 200,000 hours. This probably exceeds most, if not all other automotive based EFI systems used in this type of application. Airplanes experience elevations changes [climb rates] which far exceed what a typical automobile will ever see. If the system required constant fiddling with the fuel map, or the mixture knob, to keep the engine running, this would not be acceptable in an airplane application. Given this, why do so many airplanes use the SDS system?

The SDS system is also used on UAVs. Not in a few examples, but a few hundred. A UAV, by definition, is unmanned, so there is no one available to fiddle with the fuel map or play with the mixture knob. If what you state is correct, then how do these UAVs fly with out constant adjusting of the fuel map?

Once again, I hope this does not come across as bold or arrogant, as I am only trying to impart accurate information, specific to your comments regarding the SDS system. We could discuss engine management and engine operation theory to our hearts content, but that would probably only muddy the waters more. In this case, stating the simple facts and actual operation of the SDS system seems to be a much more direct and straight forward way of conveying the needed information.

My offer to help your friend with his SDS system still stands. There is no reason why he should have to put up with his engine running poorly. That takes all the fun out of driving the car. I am not claiming that I can make his car run perfectly and maybe there will be no improvement; who knows with out giving it a try? All I am saying is I am available to help and if we can make his car run better, great. If not, we tried. Either way, it did not cost him anything. What is there to loose?

If you would also like to lend a hand with his tuning, that would fantastic. I would be please to work with you, while we both help your friend to get his engine running better. I am sure you would add some much needed insight and tuning assistance into the mix.

Ray



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