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#82451 09/18/14 03:53 AM
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i feel a little funny, like i'm advertising or something, evne though i have nothing for sale... i'm making a roadster, it's nearly done, from a 1961 Rambler American, which is a unibody car...

so i'm pissing off the Rambler crowd (chopped up a perfectly good Rambler), hot-rodders (it's a rambler... and an inline 6), etc ...


http://sensitiveresearch.com/1961-Rambler-Roadster/index.html

i wanted it on the road by now, but it should be ready, CA DMV willing, in a month. driveline was already working, and yanked from my '63 American hardtop, so it's drop-in here.

but i followed the old-fashioned rule, "remove 1 lb. 1000 times"... i think i've got it to 2400 lbs or less, i'll run it by a scale when it's on the road.

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I tend to agree w/the hot-rodders.

" hot-rodders (it's a rambler... and an inline 6), "

Do what you like.

B.T.W., is there such a thing as a Rambler crowd? laugh

I guess if you consider a crowd = 2 peeps.

MBHD


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There is a pretty big AMC group very similar to the Studebaker Driver's club. One of our own Inliners has a Rambler with a Lexus engine that hauls butt which in my book makes it a hot rod. We don't have to deal with that period correct/traditional crap here. Build it like you want and drive it like you stole it!


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You might create a new cult type following with this build, so do it the way you like. I bet a Golden Hawk would be cool with the Atlas 4200 in it. cool



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So Tom, are you putting the hot rodded 196 OHV in the roadster?
3 speed and ? overdrive.....I'm now using a T5 behind my 258
and man....it shifts like butter. AMC guys are now on alert to
check out your latest...

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IT. RUNS.

today was the inaugural drive, and of course it was the usual comedy of small failures but all's well in RamblerLand. turns out that removing 600, 800, lbs of steel, undercoating, roof, upholstery, rugs, etc adds a lot of noise. WHO COULD HAVE KNOWN.

i've never driven never mind owned a roadster before, the simple act of climbing in utterly changes the gestalt of the car. for the better. ahh, simplicity!

the web page is far behind, but i'll update it in the next few days/week.

the major inherent problem is that weight distribution is lousy; it's extremely light in the rear; most american cars are nose-heavy i suppose but i think a disproportionate amount of rear mass got removed in this car. but damn -- Melon will know what this means i think -- in second gear, foot away from clutch, mashing the pedal spins the tires. 195.6 OHV CANT DO THIS lol. it's a combination of lowered overall weight and almost nothing over the rear tires.

any suggestions on a car-friendly scale in Los Angeles? i really need to attach some numbers to the seat of my pants.

the rear suspension is one leaf and the smallest air springs Goodyear makes. i added a torque link to deal with spring wrap. i added provision for a panhard (or watts, but laziness dictates panhard) "later". it's stupid light. i moved the battey to passenger rear, but what's that, 50 lbs? other than a tank of gas, there's nothing out back but the tiny "AMC 15" Dana axle and i doubt more than 350 lbs of sheet steel (unibody) behind the B pillar. even the trunk lid is just a skin.

i searched and searched, but this appears to be the only unibody true roadster i could find. are there any others?

i had a lot of ambitious plans for a software instrument panel -- i actually made and installed it, all running, software complete -- but did not trust commercial-grade electronics to long distance desert driving, so i pulled it all and put in a fairly traditional panel of SW gauges. it felt a little bit like defeat but my gut tells me it was the right decision.

it really is a hot rod -- even if the "traditional" crowd disagrees -- though it's Nash/Rambler driveline, i made all the pedals (master cyl in the floor) chopped out the entire firewall system, whacked my own sheet metal (ball peen and old stump), caged the deleted doors and B-pillars.

not that i'm looking for approval, i made it for myself as Beater of the Pack says. i did make it with a bit more than one eye on the SoCal TT though -- canyon car. i intend to rally it.

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Originally Posted By: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank

B.T.W., is there such a thing as a Rambler crowd? laugh


oh there is, but it's really sad, imho.

it's split, largely-speaking, into two camps:

1) the AMX/Hurst Rambler muscle car crowd. THATS AMC NOT RAMBLER DAMMITALL.
2) the old Rambler crowd. "My car's name is Betsy!"

(1) feels deeply insecure that the Ford vs. Chevy musclecar crowd don't Take AMC Seriously, on one side, and further feels that the "Betsy" crowd of enthusiasts are emasculating them.

(2) still posts mainly -- and i am not exaggerating -- "my car won't idle right, do i need a new carburetor?" and are trying to cling on as if it's still 1980 and their cars are just slightly used, and not really freaking old antiquities as we (i?) know them to be. complaining that the "kids" at Autozone don't know and love Pacers, etc....

... and people think i am weird. at least i know my car is old.

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Originally Posted By: Beater of the Pack
There is a pretty big AMC group very similar to the Studebaker Driver's club.


at least, the Steady-breakers do some innovating. the Corvair peeps, too, are a small but tight group. both seem to have their heads squarely on their bodies in real-time. Studebaker is not about to come back, they are old. Corvairs are weird, but cool, and old.

the corvair people are from whence i got my EDIS-6 ignition info. i used to SOLO II with a corvair "kid" who really had his turbo car finely tuned and running great. the studey crowd can be grouchy, but they live in the real world... i like 'em.

all cars suck, somewhere, and most -- even lowly Nash/Rambler -- did some great engineering for their particular application. tearing my '61 Rambler American -- really, a dressed-up 1952 Nashcan, re-introduced and restyled, twice -- made me very intimately familiar with their engineering, which i have to say, was pretty freakin' extraordinary, in the niche they addessed. the web page for my roadster will highlight some of the nash engineering that is, i think, still not quite appreciated. it's air-craft-like in it's approach to lightweight stiffness. the fricken HEADLIGHT BUCKETS are structural! and nicely, not kludgey.

OK the 195.6 OHV engine is a P.O.S. the cyl head engineering mistakes are inexcusable, even for 1956.

the floor shifter for the "twin stick" car -- it's absurdly over-built. it's got forgings in it! 53 years old, and all i had to do was disassemble, clean, lube, paint, reassemble. the shift gate (1-R vs. 2-3) is an inch wide, it's super-quick and super precise, tight and light. it's not a cheap stamping! bad "product", but great nerdly engineering. (no wonder they were going out of business.)

it's like working on aerospace surplus. what a pleasure.

the post-68 AMC stuff, ugh, it's all junk. AMC burned the Nash legacy to heat the house. what a disaster. though the AMC motors are pretty good (all designed in the 60's though...)

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You're back........Great! Now, a few photos, please.. My old
195.5 was sold to a guy who will be installing it in a 1962
convertible.. It currently has a clapped out flathead 195.5.
The OHV I sold him should push that little car around nicely.

If you aren't going to add weight to the rear of your roadster
can you change the diff to some type of limited slip?

If you're going to race it, wouldn't a Chrysler torque flite
six work.......

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Tom I like your attitude . Not afraid to be different and go your own way. I take a lot of abuse at work because I have a six. A lot of guys have built up diesel pickups. I usually respond by telling them there is something wrong with their trucks because someone put fuel oil in their gas tanks. Any way to shift weight to the rear of the roadster? Jay6155

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We don't have to defend our engine choice to anyone for any reason. If we want to see what we can get from our inlines that is totally our business. If we get less for our dollar that too is our business. If we are mired in yesterday's technology that is our business. If we want to cruse around with a smooth running quiet old engine under our hood that makes us smile that is our business. It is what it is. You build yours and I'll build mine. If you can not show me the the same respect for my choice that I show you for building a humdrum, cookie cutter, run of the mill, same old same old, boring, commonly 350-350, every day, uninteresting piece of crap V8 powered pile of junk then you can just kiss my sweet sounding tail pipes! mad laugh


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I think the little Rambler is cool all it needs is set of long ladder bars to transfer all of its weight to the back wheels, a posi rear end, some tires that will bite and a twin turbo setup along with a five speed. Set up in this manner wold make it a terror on the eighth. The only problem that I see is as short as it is it might be like driving a fuel altered, a little twitchy. smile


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Could some type of valve Arangement for the air bags be made to help shift weight on a fast tke off? A lot of our trucks have air suspension even in the steer axle, but the valves only maintain height with different loads. As for the guys at work it's all in fun to help us get through the day! Jay 6155

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As nose heavy as it is it needs a stiff set of bars that fasten up near the front of the chassis to cause instant positive weight transfer, then he could play with the air bags to enhance the effect. that car is probably 65 or 70 percent nose heavy. Very much like the comp roadsters back in the 60s. Al Conn ran a hemi roadster in 68 when the class was thrown in with the Gassers against Ohio George, Stone Woods and Cook and Big John, and long Ladder bars that fastened on clear up by the front axle allowed him to be competitive by instantly loading the rear tires with the entire weight of the car the second them big M&H Racemasters started to burn. This was in the days of the short wheel base roadsters

Last edited by big bill I.I.#4698; 11/01/14 12:20 AM.

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Would long ladder bars change the way the car corners in a bad way? Do they change the way a car stopps? Jay6155

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No they have very little effect until the rear end tries to twist under hard acceleration then they lift the front. This car won't corner very well as nose heavy as it is, the front will want to turn and the rear will slide. I doubt that it was built for cornering but a very stiff front stabilizer bar would help. I think it is cool and would be a blast to cruise in, just watching people trying to figure out what they were looking at would be fun. Then telling them it was original but they only made a few and seeing if they had heard of one before. A person could also use strap limiters to prevent the rear from rolling in a corner.


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Ladder bars in themselves act as a giant stabilizer bar, resisting the rear axle's tendency to twist vis-a-vis the chassis CL. In effect, the entire rear axle housing becomes the stabilizer bar.


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AMEN TO Y'ALL HERE.

today, it's "done" (lol), meaning it got a front end alignment, drove 100 miles, to work and back plus around, freeways, etc, and no failure or parts fell off. still in shakedown mode of course, not happy with the throttle linkage, OD cable needs adjusting, axle-travel limits rattle, blah blah, but its "on the road".

though vastly incomplete, many pictures at http://sensitiveresearch.com/1961-Rambler-Roadster/index.html still many dead links, i'm in the middle of a big edit.

scroll down to "completed" to see a few pics, drivable.

the driveline is largely unchanged from my '63 American. the unibody roadster chassis is where the work was, suspension changes, electrics, etc.

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haha this is my first roadster. i expected the noise and cold, but didn't realize how much dirt i'd get in the cabin. lots of crud in my eyes! hat to keep sun off my scalp!! i ordered some goggles tonight.

i plan on driving to Tucson AZ (from here in Los Angeles) next weekend, screw it, trial by fire.

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Originally Posted By: Melon
If you aren't going to add weight to the rear of your roadster
can you change the diff to some type of limited slip?

If you're going to race it, wouldn't a Chrysler torque flite
six work.......


nahh, no racing here. i do intend to drive briskly with the vintage rally crowd... "canyon car" is more like it. a huge part of the criteria was LOW WEIGHT and USE THE IRON PILE. i don't think i spent $3000 total on the project, though that discounts the nicely built engine, trans, axle, suspension and brakes on the '63 American.

there's not much i am going to do about front/rear weight distribution. my main concern in the short term is too much rear spring. i'm running a single leaf for location and the smallest air spring available. it's got 10 PSI in it, and it's all jacked up! i'd like to eliminate the leaf, losing another 20 lbs a side, and go with a locating linkage and the air spring only.

or install some import independent rear. with only 200 ft/lbs my choices are open.

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Originally Posted By: big bill I.I.#4698
A person could also use strap limiters to prevent the rear from rolling in a corner.



though this thing has no sway bars there is little body roll. even dead stock, the geometry, with springs well above the upper A-arm/trunnion -- unlike GM type suspensions, body roll in a turn transfers energy to the other side through the chassis, rather than "increasing leverage" over the compressed spring. the downside is the car chassis must be very tall -- it is -- to accomodate the spring location. that's a given for me though.

the rear being so stiff (partly no choice) means the car tends to hop, but it stays quite level, which helps front weight transfer. the double-A-arm geometry goes faintly negative camber when compressed, classic double-A-arm. (stock, spring/ride height pushed it up out of that part of the plot, but with air springs, i can tune it so that each lower arm pivot are parallel which sets the uppers almost ideally).

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Great so now all you have to do is solve the traction problem.


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Try raising the rear instant center. Koni adjustable shocks are inexpensive and probably called for.


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Great progress and very interesting.. I'd love to see this
in person..I'm in Agua Dulce (close to Acton) if you are ever
out this way. I'm retired so I'm at home......a lot.

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suspension issues related to engine torque are... let's say not present here. even in it's performance-modified state, this driveline in a more or less stock '63 American hardtop is in the 16 to 18 second quarter mile range... though i did beat a 1970 Superbeetle in some ill-advised street racing. drag racing does not appear to be in my future.

"canyon car" is more appealing to me, though i'm too old to want to die from rolling over the edge of Little Tejunga.

but overall "sports car" driving pleasure is the goal and the major limitation for me is the terrible rear unsprung weight ratio.

i'm running one leaf from the original set and the smallest air spring i could find: http://www.ridetech.com/store/air-spring-267c-double-convoluted.html. even with 10 psi in it, it's too tall. the leaf preserves the subtleties of roll center and u-joint alignment.

for now, i'm just gonna drive and enjoy it. but i'm thinking about making a four-bar system; but instead of both bars running forward as you see in most american performance installs, i'm thinking of running one bar forward, one to the rear, like i've seen in some circle-track cars. or, a junkyard pull of a lightweight IRS setup like a Honda CRV. (low HP opens up vast inexpensive possibilities!).

the drive back from Tucson to Los Angeles i did at 75 - 80 mph, 2800 - 2900 rpm, 7.5 hours including three stops and a half hour delay due to an accident on the 10. at one point passing a big Volvo tractor-trailer at 75 mph up an incline, i had to "fight" the pile of air at the nose of the tractor for nearly a minute to get past... the coefficient of drag of this thing i think is (not joking) 1.0. so air dam and some method of spoiling the vacuum that hits the back of my head is probably worth more than adding power.

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Yes you are driving a shortened shoe box, not exactly streamlined.


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Originally Posted By: big bill I.I.#4698
Yes you are driving a shortened shoe box, not exactly streamlined.


it sure is. air hits me in the back of the head. i'll make an airdam, maybe play with some sort of spoiler.

i did get it on a scale -- 2520 lbs with me (145 lbs), 20 gallons of gasoline and tools.

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Sounds like empty and dry you are down to 2000 pound or so. Even the little stock six ought to pull that fairly well.
Wind wings out the side of the windshield or a spoiler on top of the windshield might make a huge difference.


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Put these on the top of your windshield:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi00.i.aliimg.com%2Fwsphoto%2Fv0%2F513907852%2FLancer-EVO-X-Carbon-Fiber-Roof-Spoiler-for-08-11-Mitsubishi-Lancer-Vtx.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gopixpic.com%2F343%2Fspoilers-what-i-never-told-you-about-tariq%2Fhttp%3A%257C%257Cspooksfanblog*com%257Cwp-content%257Cuploads%257C2011%257C09%257CPicture-1213*png%2F&h=393&w=524&tbnid=Q91jYyNiUEJSnM%3A&zoom=1&docid=pNxlN4oxWdITCM&ei=OXl8VOjxEYPmggTU8YH4Dg&tbm=isch&ved=0CEgQMygkMCQ&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=2072&page=3&start=35&ndsp=20

In case the image does not show up it is of a row of wedge-shaped spoilers often used on race cars trailing edges and also motorcycle helmets

Last edited by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER; 12/01/14 11:28 AM.

FORD 300 inline six - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING!

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