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#85500 - 05/03/15 04:56 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER Offline
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Way to weather the storm.
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#85821 - 06/07/15 01:19 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
TheSilverBuick Offline
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Wow, been a month since I last updated this. Just been uneventfully driving the car to work daily. I've been too distracted with my Skylark's engine to progress any further on the intake manifold. However, the next town over (90 miles to the west) is having a Run Whatcha Brung event at their airport on June 20th and I'm going to try and go. I work that day, but am going to ask for it off to take the Firebird and see what it can do. I'm told it may even be a full 1/4 mile. So looking forward to that. Maybe in the next week I'll drive to the next town south of here (25 miles) to the public truck scale they have and weigh the car.

A picture of the current distraction. I'm actually waiting for a new cam to arrive, so it's not really bolted together yet.
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#85822 - 06/07/15 02:13 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Offline
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What was wrong with the Olds engine?
Aluminum heads, what do those flow?
High RPM manifold?

I think your Firebird will be kinda heavy.
The Firebird hood alone is way, way heavier than my standard 69 Camaro hood.

I know my friends 69 Firebird weighed about 3800 + LBS 400 & TH400 trans.

I'll just throw out an ET guess for the Bird, 17.9 in the 1/4.

MBHD
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#85824 - 06/07/15 07:55 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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My Skylark with pictured Buick engine, A/C, full dual exhaust, interior (stock bench seat,etc), heavy steel wheels, etc. weighed in at 3,650lbs. When jacking up the Firebird it feels lighter, no A/C, half the exhaust, smaller/lighter interior pieces, lighter aftermarket rims, etc. The transmission is the only marginally heavier thing than the Skylark. I wouldn't be surprised to see 3,300lbs.

I had a clutch pressure plate/flywheel issue, and decided to change the cam since I pulled the engine for the clutch/flywheel issue.

I have no idea what it'll run, but I'm sure it feels a lot faster than it actually is, lol.
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Rebuilding an OHC Pontiac 250 with EFI and a Turbo

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#85825 - 06/07/15 08:02 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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It's a 462cid Buick. The heads flow around 315cfm at .550" lift, which matches the cam well for the rpm I run it at.

I need to trim the intake gaskets some.


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Rebuilding an OHC Pontiac 250 with EFI and a Turbo

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#85879 - 06/12/15 09:55 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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3180lbs! Whohoo! Will likely only go up from there though. The turbo system will add weight, an eventual 9" rear will add weight, and a hopefully needed then cage will add weight as well.



It was a nice drive out there, stopped and ate at the road side cafe next to the scale.
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#86011 - 06/20/15 08:40 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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Drove the car 90 miles to Eureka, ran down the track 8 times, and drove home without any hiccup and calling that a win. The car was quite slow, but got some good data running down the track.

The engine seemed to like 36 timing, it slowed down at 38 and 34, liked to shift at 5,200rpm and slowed down when trying to wind it up to ~5,600rpm, and it liked about 40% throttle at 1,600rpm at the line for the best 60ft. I ran it around 13.0 AFR as best I could across the board. I had one lean pop running a bit leaner than that, and started as rich as 11.0 when I got there and progressively leaned it out.

The plan I followed was, first three passes I adjusted the shift point RPM with a bit of leaning it out, leaving timing at 36, the next two passes I leaned it out incrementally, one more with more rpm (and slowed down), then tried 2 more, then 2 less timing and both slowed down.

So the numbers.
Eureka Airport
Elevation: 5,954 ft
Temperature ~93F
Density Altitude according to the Airport computer: 9,100 ft.

My best ET and MPH were on the same run at 18.345 seconds at 77.13 mph with a 2.095 60ft. My best 60ft was 1.983 on a different run. After my third run, I really wanted to hit that 17.9 =P But I think that 9,100 foot air put a stop to that =P

Extrapolating from the Wallace Racing calculators I get a corrected 16.23 seconds at 86.65 mph, for a corrected 174.54 HP, which is about spot on for the low compression 1bbl engine's OEM rating.

I'm going to re-look at the cam timing and may even stick the slightly smaller 1bbl cam back on the engine as it could be a better match for the compression.

In any case, I have a successful day going down the track and have a baseline to start with! And that nearly 10,000 foot air sucks!



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#86014 - 06/20/15 10:22 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Offline
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That 1.9 60 ft is not bad.
Dang, my ET estimate was close. laugh

Did you get to see how high your converter would flash stall to?

Glad to hear it went well on your day @ the track & the drive there & back.

I forgot if you had milled the head to get some compression out of it or is it still close to a 1 bbl engine compression ratio?


MBHD
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#86017 - 06/21/15 06:49 AM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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Rather I stalled it or flashed it with just the gas pedal it, just shy of 1,700rpm is all it'd get. Right around 1,680rpm on the stall speed. It launched better stalled up with about 40% throttle to keep air speed up. It'd just barely chirp the tires when I let off the brake on launch.

Even with all the milling the compression is still only a measured 8.37:1.
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#87301 - 10/11/15 08:38 AM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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Drag racing the Skylark was a success and now, other than a few minor maintenance type things to do on the Skylark I can get back to this.

This weekend I drove the car 250 to Las Vegas and Tuesday it should make it home. It appears to be getting just over 25mpg when I stuck to 70-75mph.

Its pretty warm but did pretty good over all.


Finally got the Raspberry Pi to work as intended and not blank the screen after ten minutes. Crap linux programming I say... So I may actually be ready to put it behind the dash now as I finally solved the last issue I was having with it.



I'm going to be down on disposable funds for a few months or so, so I started eyeing the M-30 supercharger I have on the shelf again. Since it may be another six or more months before I can purchase a turbo, intercooler, etc, I'm looking at finishing up the intake manifold I started, but also possibly throwing together an adapter to bolt the supercharger to that will bolt to the stock manifold. I've looked at it before, and to get the belts to line up it's going to be ungainly looking, but at this point I want it on there.

I have the M-30 unit, which is the earlier, smaller, 3800 series engine one. I've removed the serpentine pulley from the supercharger and am looking at bolting on a dual groove alternator pulley to it, which is likely a smaller diameter than the stock pulley to overdrive it a bit more, plus I think the OE crank pulley is a tad larger than the 3800 crank pulley to overdrive it a bit more. I think in stock applications they were good for 12psi of boost (the later ones definitely got 14+psi), but if I can get 6-10psi I'd be pretty happy with it. I may have some belt wrap issues, meaning both the alternator and supercharger may not have enough belt traction, but I have some ideas to address that if its the case. Running two v-belts will help, but it may need more help. Should be interesting if I can get this to work.
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#87321 - 10/14/15 04:30 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
TheSilverBuick Offline
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The car made it to Las Vegas and back without a hiccup. Around 550 miles round trip. I haven't filled it up since I got home, but it got a bit over 25mpg driving down there, but that is only a one tank/leg average.

The car got a part in our wedding. The wife insisted!


I was driven up to the aisle.


She was brought in with only ONE horsepower =P




Afterwards, even the car appeared to have a hangover as my brother who drove us back to the hotel left the key in the accessory position and killed the battery, so I needed to get a jump start.


Funny enough, someone left a post-it note on the driver's window saying "Congratulations" and two times going out to the car I found people standing next to it looking in, including a pair of ladies that appeared to be in their 70's! =D
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#87324 - 10/14/15 05:59 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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Great, It looks good. There is a lot of road out there to enjoy it on. cool
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#87325 - 10/14/15 06:28 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
TheSilverBuick Offline
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Certainly lots of road out there.

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#87359 - 10/18/15 03:09 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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Now that Drag Week and the wedding planning are over I can get back to this project. I'll get pictures later, but today I started welding in the injector bungs on the intake manifold I'm building. It feels good to be making progress on it again smile

On a separate thought, I want to get rid of the exhaust cross over in the exhaust manifold. I've looked at a few ideas, from filling the passage with aluminum or JB Weld like epoxy to cutting out the cross over and welding in some block off plates. And I've taken the first step towards the last option.

I have an old Buick 455 exhaust manifold that I had practiced drilling holes in cast iron and tapping holes in cast iron (for the EFI bungs and possible EGT sensors). So I beveled the edges of the hole and cut a piece off exhaust tubing out to patch it with. I then turned the oven I have in the barn to 500F broil and placed the exhaust manifold in there for a couple hours.


Using a laser temp gun, the manifold was around 400F inside and out when I removed it. I set the welder to the thickness of the block off plate and welded about a 1/2" at a time, going back and fourth. Once I was satisfied with it, I put the manifold back in the oven and turned the oven to 200F for about 2 hours, then turned it off and left it in there over night. The next day I pulled it out, and think it'll do just fine to hole exhaust gases back.




One of the cross over passages. I'll run a grinder around the edges to get them clean, then cut a piece of metal out to size to plug it. Once welded in, I'll probably pour a bit of exhaust mend epoxy or JB Weld over the patch to ensure it is sealed.


Edited by TheSilverBuick (10/18/15 03:11 PM)
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#87371 - 10/19/15 07:00 AM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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Fun to see you involved your car with the wedding. She definitely knows what to expect from you.
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#87374 - 10/19/15 08:21 AM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
TheSilverBuick Offline
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Yeah it was her idea. And after riding shotgun in the Skylark for 4,320 miles in 13 days for Drag Week, she toughed out long and hot drives like a champ so good to go for the long haul smile

Back on subject, I'll get pictures of the welded in injector bungs and any work I do to it today.





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#87377 - 10/19/15 03:48 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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My "RTV" method of welding for the injector bungs. The trouble I had was the same problem I had the welding the rest of it, which was blowing through the thin metal. So I what I eventually did was dial the heat and feed way down and lay a bead on the thin metal, then went back over it with more power, effectively welding the weld to the bung, then stacked it, and then turned the heat up some more and stacked it again.... However I think I learned what setting would work well the next time I weld this thin metal.

CNCDude Scott made the injector bungs up and they are mint. They weld nicely and cut nicely as well.

I still have to do some finishing grinding/polishing on the inside of the ports, but then will give it a coat of fuel resistant sealant and then paint will make all the flaws go away smile



Finishing work still required.


Edited by TheSilverBuick (10/19/15 03:53 PM)
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#87910 - 11/30/15 04:21 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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Winter upgrading time. I removed the intake and exhaust manifolds this last weekend and I finally bolted the new intake to the engine in the car for a test fit. There was a slight interference with some brake lines by the master cylinder, but putting a slight taper on the tube, reducing the diameter by about 1/2" in the rear, gave ample clearance. I had contemplated tapering the tube some to begin with, but this just gave a physical need to. The throttle body lands right about where I wanted it to so I'm happy with that. I'll put a 90 fitting on it downwards so I can put an air filter on it until I get an intercooler installed (with a turbo).





Then I made the big leap of cutting up the exhaust manifold and blocking the exhaust cross over. If I get a twin-scroll turbo I will try and plumb it in front and back.

Marked out where I wanted to cut. Turned out to be a larger pain in the rear than I thought it would be as I wanted to keep the two halves connected still so they'd line up on the ports from the two end bolts. The metal is also quite thick in parts of these areas.


I ground down the top of the remaining part of the heat cross over so if I go back to the stock intake manifold it would not be touching the intake at all. As I said, turned out to be a tougher cutting process than I anticipated.


I cut, heated, hammered and trimmed the patches.


Then because my welding is horrible my final shot is after I painted it =P I heated the manifold up in an oven to ~450F, while also leaving the metal patches on my wood stove, so every thing was quite toasty while welding. Even the welding gloves were at their thermal limits. I hammer peened the welds after welding short sections. After the welding was done I put the manifold back in the oven and incrementally lowered the temperature over a couple hours and then let the manifold cool in the oven. Crossing my fingers it all holds together! If I have a little exhaust leak here or there I'll put some "exhaust weld" epoxy on it.
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#87938 - 12/02/15 04:25 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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Nice job, keep the updates coming.
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#88056 - 12/11/15 05:40 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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Did some more work on the intake manifold yesterday and today. Getting closer. I welded on a plate to the back side and the throttle body mounting flange made of 3/16" steel on the front. Not seen in the pictures are three 3/8th NPT threaded pipe/bungs welded to the bottom side of the outer shell that I can thread different sized nipples on to use as vacuum ports as needed. Tomorrow I hope to cut and drill out the fuel rail so I can make the fuel rail hold downs. After that a coating of epoxy over the welds and then paint smile

One thing now with the laid over fuel injectors is the fuel rail won't interfere with the OE water outlet if I decide to go back to the stock water pump system it'll work.


Cut and drilled the flange for a nice fit with the throttle body I have.


I would of liked more plenum volume, but this is what I have to work with on this version. I welded and formed a small piece of tin on the left behind the throttle body to try and keep the air flow from hitting the flat side of the first runner.
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Rebuilding an OHC Pontiac 250 with EFI and a Turbo

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#88343 - 01/02/16 10:59 AM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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Got the final batch of steel injector bungs from CNC-Dude Scott, so now I have enough to make at least two more intake manifolds as my R&D continues. Thanks Scott!
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#88344 - 01/02/16 11:16 AM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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Glad to help out Randal! Your project looks like its coming together nicely. Keep up the great fabrication work and keep us posted how the intakes work out.
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#88381 - 01/03/16 12:07 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
TheSilverBuick Offline
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Hoping to get back to this on Wednesday or Thursday. Traveled out to North Carolina for Christmas and been doing home and weather projects. Plus with the sub-zero temps lately, it just takes too long to heat the shop up to a comfortable level, but I'm going to make a go at it anyways.

I have to drill the fuel rail, add fittings (my existing fuel line should connect right up), make something to hold the rail down, then start the epoxy coating, which could be interesting depending on temperature. I may be using my barn oven.

I picked up a Vizier engine book last week, so perhaps my next intake round will be a tad different (not to mention porting the head). I certainly have learned quite a bit on this one.
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#88384 - 01/03/16 12:43 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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Keep it up Randal can't wait to see how it comes out just took the pieces for my intake to the guy who's gunna tig Weld them for me old cat was welding for nasal doing lunar modual bases back in the hehe day can'take wait to get mind running
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#88423 - 01/05/16 11:58 AM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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I like this project. Keep it up!

292 crank should drop right in to the OHC. No worries about camshaft clearances. Still need to watch the counterweight to wristpin clearance but that is easier to deal with.

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#88427 - 01/05/16 03:15 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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A friend of mine gave me a cast 292 crank so I could test fit it. My concerns were around finding the appropriate rod and piston that would fit, with some concern around the rod angle. A later concern is, since I'm so cam limited, to around 0.460" lift, is how well can the engine take advantage of the extra displacement without more cam?

The 292 crank on the left compared to the stock 250 crank on the right.


The 292 crank sitting in the block. It didn't hit anything, but was dang close and sure looked like some clearing for the rods would be necessary.




It will likely be a long long time before I go down the road of putting a 292 crank in, but you can be assured I looked into it =)
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#88428 - 01/05/16 03:17 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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And here is a photo of the stock 250 piston clearance on the stock 250 crank. Pretty dang close!

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#88447 - 01/06/16 02:00 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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Made the fuel rail and hold downs today. Same method as last time, ran a 3/8" pilot hole into the fuel passage, followed up with the 17/32" bit but stopping a bit short of the fuel passage. Then used a dremel to bevel the opening followed by some fine grit (400?) sand paper, red scotch brite then green scotch brite. Tapped threads into the ends for the fuel fittings and then cleaned it and cleaned it.



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#88449 - 01/06/16 02:49 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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A TIG welder would be a great addition to your arsenal smile

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#88452 - 01/06/16 04:04 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: strokersix]
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Randal, i've seen on your other forum that a few guys have done the 292 stroker Pontiac OHC before with great results, so you shouldn't have any problems. I'm sure if you find their posts it will list all the details needed to do it in the OHC engine.
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#88468 - 01/09/16 03:42 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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I'd probably be even worse at TIG welding. I've seen a few folks say they have a bored and stroked out 5L L6 using the 292 crank, but really haven't seen any details on it outside of them using Chevy crank balancers.

I had to cut a bunch more material out of the exhaust manifold's heat cross over. I'm glad I had already started to do so because it turns out it would have been required. But I bolted it all together on the head and cleared up any interference's, so now the only place the exhaust manifold is connected with the intake manifold is at the head and hold down bolts. Now the next step is giving the welds a coat of epoxy, then a nice coating of Pontiac Blue engine paint.

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#88476 - 01/10/16 10:58 AM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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Keep it up buddy it looks like it's coming along nicely

Can't wait to see it finished
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72 gmc lwb air ride 5 speed (soon) turbo 292 II# 6102

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#88483 - 01/11/16 01:59 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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Gave the intake a nice coating of Pontiac Blue. Now that I have it painted, I'm thinking of making a red trim piece in red to lay over the weld just to pretty it up and match the cam housing.

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#88555 - 01/21/16 06:54 AM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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Getting closer! Installed the intake and exhaust back on the engine yesterday. There is a small list of things I need to do before I can fire it up. The fuel line may need to be slightly changed for the new fuel rail location, the throttle cable is too short so I need a new one, the TPS and possibly the IAC wiring needs to be extended and I need to figure out what I'm going to do for an air filter. Down the road I'll likely make changes to the injector wiring harness.

I've hose clamped a piece of aluminum trim to the top of the intake to help hide and draw eyes away from my welding, lol.




Edited by TheSilverBuick (01/21/16 07:00 AM)
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Rebuilding an OHC Pontiac 250 with EFI and a Turbo

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#88559 - 01/21/16 02:16 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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Looking good!! What is the injector off of?
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#88560 - 01/21/16 05:38 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
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Thanks! The injectors are generic Accel 36lb/hr ones from Summit Racing.
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#88562 - 01/21/16 06:42 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Offline
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Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 5812
Loc: Ca
Conduit clamps?
Sorry but Looking really GHETTO

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#88563 - 01/21/16 06:51 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
TheSilverBuick Offline
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Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 460
Loc: Ely, NV
Sometimes function over form prevails.
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Rebuilding an OHC Pontiac 250 with EFI and a Turbo

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#88564 - 01/21/16 07:55 PM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
Xea I.I. #5390 Offline
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Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 95
Loc: Central City, Iowa.
Sorry, should have said throttle body. What is it from?
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Faster, faster, faster, till the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death........

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#88565 - 01/22/16 06:27 AM Re: Hacking together EFI on an Pontiac OHC Six [Re: TheSilverBuick]
lowboygmc Offline
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Registered: 11/20/12
Posts: 551
Loc: glendale,az
I like the color dust holders it works and that's what counts pluses it's hotrod din buddy making s*** work and advancing from original is what it's all about
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Josh
72 gmc lwb air ride 5 speed (soon) turbo 292 II# 6102

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