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#76465 - 08/18/13 10:41 AM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: TurboCamaro]
Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Ian67
The cost for the 304 is minimal in the long run. I belive I will get it to save any rusting or oxidizing.

(Smart man!)

MBHD, did you use an ebay intercooler piping kit to pipe from the turbo to the intercooler, and from the intercooler to the carb? And then one of the above pipes for the downpipe?

(Yep, I used an ebay intercooler piping kit & one of those "J" bend pipes, but 4".
)
What do you guys think about the pros/cons of the Holley 500 and the 600 DP? Is the 600 going to be much worse on fuel? Is there one that is better than the other for my purpose?

Thanks!

Ian


A 600 Holley should work good for your app.
Yes a 600 will be worse on gas when floored, but should be close to the same mileage when just cruising.

If you can find a 600 Holley w/4 annular booster venturi's (SP) should be better @ fueling.

I never used a 500 2 bbl Holley ,only a 350 2 bbl & a Rochester dual jet Large & small one. The 350 Holley I used worked good for mileage, but not too great for performance (too small).

I believe the 500 2 bbl Holley is like half of a 750, & a 750 Holley 4 bbl is a bit much for your app. Maybe a 500 would work OK, but not sure on the mileage as comparing a 600 DP to a 500 2 bbl Holley. I would tend to think when cruising a 600 DP would get better mileage than a 500, but I have not done a direct comparison, maybe someone here has?

MBHD
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#76466 - 08/18/13 12:51 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Offline
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A Holley w/4 corner idles adjustment screws would be nice.(Hard to find)
Old Nascar carbs had these types of adjustments.

MBHD
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#76482 - 08/18/13 07:36 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Offline
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This is nice but pricey
http://www.holley.com/0-80540-1.asp

http://www.holley.com/data/products/pictures/large0-80541.jpg

Personally, I always had better luck/performance using smaller carbs.500 CFM or so.
When I used 600's Holley's & 625 Carters AFB & AVS's I never got a crisp throttle response as I did when using smaller carbs, but I also did not spend a lot of time trying to tune them perfect.
This might a great choice for you. A 390 cfm HP series double-pumper (#80157 might be just the ticket? But,, to me , might be too small, I rather see a 500CFM DP Holley.

My engines were never over 254 CI either, so take that into consideration.

The best all around 4bbl carb I ever used was a 500 CFM Carter AFB.
I never had a bigger engine than 254 C.I.
I am going to fuel injection, now.

My favorite ever of all time Carbs are a set of 3 side draft DCOE Webers. Probably closet thing to F.I.


MBHD
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#76547 - 08/21/13 01:06 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
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@MBHD - After some hours of research I think I'll stick with the 2bbl Holley 500cfm. Seems like a solid choice for the power I want and won't be limiting. Plus there are a few people here that I can use as a reference when it comes to tuning.

I plan to buy a large (by eBay standards) intercooler with a black piping kit. The piping is 3" as the turbo is 3" so that is easy. My current exhaust system is nothing special and could use an overhaul I'm sure. Would I see a significant advantage in running a 3" downpipe to a new 3" exhaust system? Or would the 2.5" downpipe and current exhaust perform the same?

Also, what do we think of this for a downpipe: http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=251316090929

I've seen flexible stainless tubing for air conditioners and other appliances but this says it's for vehicles and is 2.5" 304 stainless. Sure would make things easy :-)

Ian
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#76552 - 08/21/13 07:24 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: TurboCamaro]
Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Offline
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[quote=Ian67I plan to buy a large (by eBay standards) intercooler with a black piping kit. The piping is 3" as the turbo is 3" so that is easy. My current exhaust system is nothing special and could use an overhaul I'm sure. Would I see a significant advantage in running a 3" downpipe to a new 3" exhaust system? Or would the 2.5" downpipe and current exhaust perform the same?

Also, what do we think of this for a downpipe: http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=251316090929

I've seen flexible stainless tubing for air conditioners and other appliances but this says it's for vehicles and is 2.5" 304 stainless. Sure would make things easy :-)

Ian [/quote]
The 500 2BBL Holley will work fine.

I would run 3" downpipe & exhaust. Do not run that flex tubing. Garbage.
You will see an improvement in the turbo spooling up quicker running a free flowing exhaust system & intake system.
For exhaust and turbo apps, the bigger the better, you do not want any restrictions or back pressure.

I always recommend a muffler, straight through design.
For me I think running a exhaust system w/out a muffler sounds like a$$. But to each there own. Plus if you are driving in the city & the cops are out, no need to draw extra attention, & believe me, my Syclone is plenty loud when I get on it & I use a muffler, but, it is pretty quiet when just cruising around.

MBHD
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#76572 - 08/22/13 02:39 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
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I figured that flexible exhaust was junk but I thought I would point it out in case somebody had a positive experience.

Been trying to price/pick an intercooler of a decent size and have found what looks like a good setup from the same seller as the turbo MBHD picked.

CXMotorsports 31x12x3" Universal Intercooler for $120 and CXMotorsports 3" black/blue intercooler piping kit for $100.

I picked that intercooler because of the brand, it's bar and plate design and the core size. It seems like a lot of the Ebay intercoolers are large in size but have 21-23" core lengths. This one is only 31" long but has a 24" core size.

Any thoughts?

Ian

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#76578 - 08/22/13 09:02 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: TurboCamaro]
Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Offline
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Ian,

the intercooler looks like a good choice for your application.
With proper positioning, you might be able to retain the stock hood latch.

You possibly could see if the seller has a combo sale for the intercooler & tubing kit for a better deal.

Does not hurt to ask or look further into there other auctions, they might just have a combo sale already.

I try not to use 90 degree tubing if possible & use more 45 degree elbows.

Example:





MBHD
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#76583 - 08/23/13 09:49 AM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
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Thanks for the pics, saves me having to keep digging through snowmans thread to look at them. Perhaps I'll be able to get a custom turbo, intercooler and piping auction from CXMotorsports for even more savings. I'll definitely ask.

Ian

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#76584 - 08/23/13 10:08 AM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: TurboCamaro]
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It probably would be good to keep focused on this thread here for your build. Snowman's thread is a classic example of "What not to do" to your turbo build in a lot of ways, and might confuse you on the correct "How-to" aspect of what your trying to accomplish. He disregarded a lot of good advice from guys here on his build, and as you can see he had a to re-do a lot of things several times, so don't use his thread as a "model" for your build. Listen to Hank and others, and if the money or budget starts to get beyond what you expect, just take a break and come back to it when you can, don't rush through it.
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#76585 - 08/23/13 12:28 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: CNC-Dude #5585]
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@CNC-DUDE - Thanks for looking out for my best interests. I've read snowmans thread a few times and have bookmarked quite a few posts there as solid information to use as future reference. That being said, most of the bookmarks link to posts by other people providing advice to snowman that, like you said, wasn't heard or followed. I'd like to be clear that I have no intention of going rogue on you guys, but I will use outside resources for information and run in past you as I go. This is not a rushed process for me and I expect the part gathering process to take at least a year, even two. I have a small family and can only allot a small amount of money every month and my shopping is is growing in size and financial cost. I will not be cutting corners no matter how long it takes.

Thanks again for ensuring that I, and anyone else following understands the best practices of a project like this.

Ian
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#76613 - 08/25/13 12:31 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: TurboCamaro]
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The 292 Exhaust manifold arrived today. I quickly checked the diameter and it's the desired 2.5". I don't know why but I always fear that people will say anything to sell an item on Ebay. Either way, it's confirmed. I posted a few pictures below for reference.

Below is a link to the picture album for my entire Turbo Build. I will post pictures in this thread too, but like the ones below, smaller than what will be in the album. For whatever reason, this site doesn't like the picture links from my google album, so links will have to do... for now.

My Camaro Turbo 250 Engine Build Photo Album


292 Manifold - View of ports - https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-nDQs0...20130825_120330

292 Manifold - Top view - https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-sd6mZ...20130825_120826

292 Manifold - Bottom View - https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-oBkST...20130825_120545

292 Manifold - Measured outlet - https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-061OK...20130825_120709


The angle and placement of the measuring tape wasn't great for the shot, but I can confirm that it is 2.5" exactly. The photo album has some other measurements.

I'm on the lookout for a sweet deal on the HEI distributor, Holley 500cfm carb and/or Offy Intake. I have almost no $ to spend right now... but if I can find the HEI or Carb for less than $50 or the intake for $120 (or less.. hah!) then it was meant to be.

If anyone has any spares or finds a local deal please let me know, i'm not against shipping.

Ian

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#76623 - 08/26/13 01:12 AM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: TurboCamaro]
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Hah, bumping my own thread now. I've been reading some other turbo threads and found Tower saying the Holley 600cfm double pumper (4776) is better than the 500 because it's more drivable when not in boost and it's easier to tune. From a few quick queries, it's more available and just as cheap. Plus, no need to get an adapter plate for the offy. Should I stick with the 500 or is the 600 a better overall carb for me?

Ian
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#76630 - 08/26/13 04:29 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: TurboCamaro]
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Who is Tower?
I also think the 600 double pumper is a great choice for a boosted application. Smaller primaries than a 500 2 bbl for drivability but yet the ability for extra fuel when needed for boost.
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#76633 - 08/26/13 05:47 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: tlowe #1716]
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@TLOWE - Hah, I didn't notice but my phone auto corrected your name. I meant Tlowe. So, while you're here, would you recommend your medium lift turbo cam for my goals? Also, any thoughts on which of your forged pistons I'd want, the 5.7"or the 6"? It's hard to search for the answer to that in relation to my plans.

@EVERYONE - Any recommendations on a budget wastegate (kit?) for that GT35/T4 turbo? I found a chart that, if accurate, suggested a 60mm, but based off what I read, that's a bit overkill for my goals.

Ian
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#76635 - 08/26/13 07:48 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: TurboCamaro]
Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Offline
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Ian,
you do not need a 60 MM wastegate. A 38 MM wastegate will work fine for you. 38, 40, 44MM will work. You do not want to go too big though.
Here is a nice one. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tial-38MM-wasteg...4d33641&vxp=mtr

http://www.bing.com/shopping/tial-sport-...RM=EGCA&lppc=16

My Syclone has an internal wastegate that has a 27 mm or 1 inch hole & it works OK for me & I run as high as 25 PSI.

I do not recommend you using a 27MM wastegate, just saying that what I am currently stuck with.

MBHD
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#76637 - 08/26/13 09:21 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
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I feel a bit cheap postin my pick after yours, but I was thinking something more like this:

SPA Turbo 36MM 6-22psi Adjustable Wastegate

I like the adjustability, 6-22psi and the price of course. I had heard of SPA before too, so that didn't hurt. Realize that it's a 36mm but it says it can do to 400whp with ease so I figured it would suffice.

Is it junk? And if so, do you have a more budget minded pick? Lol or is that already budget minded?

Ian
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#76638 - 08/26/13 09:49 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: TurboCamaro]
Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Offline
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As far as wastegates goes, I say get as best as possible, but stay w/in your means.
Remember, this controls your boost & you should not skimp here.

That being said, people have used cheap ebay units & knock off HKS, Tial, etc with good results.

Just do some research & try to see if people have posted reviews on there products, forums talking about these different brand units..

I have not used any SPA wastegates, but I believe they are sorta popular in Brazil & seem to be OK.

MBHD
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#76639 - 08/27/13 04:53 AM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: TurboCamaro]
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Either cam works nice. The larger cam will work better if the engine has a compression ratio of around 9, it has more duration.

Either piston will work, they are both flat top with the same final Deck Height.

I like the turbonetics products.
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#76661 - 08/27/13 09:19 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: tlowe #1716]
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Hello... Found a carb. Seller says it's a Holley "8408"... And from my searching it's a common 4150 600cfm double pumper that was swapped when they swapped them as dealer replacements in the late 70s. I've posted a picture below, maybe someone can confirm that it looks like a 4150 before I snatched it.

http://db.tt/kwolzS97

Ian
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#76662 - 08/27/13 10:40 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: TurboCamaro]
Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Offline
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I thought all DP carbs are dual feed?
Got any more pics?

Here is one like the one you posted. http://www.ebay.com/itm/HOLLEY-LIST-8408...=p2047675.l2557
Vacuum carb, not DP.

MBHD
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#76663 - 08/27/13 10:48 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
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Yeah I had pulled up a few eBay results and read all I could find on this 8408 and it doesn't give me anything to believe it's a dp. Too bad.

Back to the drawing board...
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#76664 - 08/27/13 10:50 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: TurboCamaro]
Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Offline
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#76665 - 08/27/13 11:06 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
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I appreciate the listing. I've seen all the 4776 's, even the really junky ones and the ones poorly ddescribed . I'm still hoping to get an unrebuilt carb for around $50 or less.

How about this 650cfm one http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=271263611420

Ian
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#76667 - 08/28/13 06:42 AM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: TurboCamaro]
Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Offline
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You would need a mechanical secondary carb, not a vacuum secondary.

MBHD
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#76970 - 09/18/13 03:54 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
preacher-no choir Offline
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it seems you were quoting your quote and I was quoting mine--rather usual wouldn't you say? let me guess, you like what yours says best. no?

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#76973 - 09/18/13 05:37 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: preacher-no choir]
Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Offline
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Did you find a V-8 project yet?
How's that non rusting 409 stainless LOL. \:D
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#76981 - 09/18/13 09:35 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
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I wasn't looking, and yeah I haven't seen a rusty cafeteria counter yet

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#76982 - 09/18/13 09:42 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: preacher-no choir]
Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Offline
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Go look under some old cars, you will see a lot of rusted exhaust systems. That is 409 stainless to the "T" \:D

MBHD
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#76984 - 09/19/13 06:01 AM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
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That (with a "T") Junior, is a rumor \:D \:D
Now YOU go look for old rusted cafeteria serving and counter tops, that is also 409 stainless- another "rumor", no?
Surely, even a/c mechanics have probably read new construction building specification manuals stating that the project's kitchen counter and serving tops be...ta-dah! "giddy-up 409 stainless steel".
Why, I further bet if you had 409 stainless exhaust on your Nova you could back it off into your backyard pool and leave it for say, six years, and never see a bit of rust, and at the same time be saving a lot of stainless 300 series money that would be better used on pool chemicals and upper control arm bushings ;\)

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#76985 - 09/19/13 07:48 AM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: preacher-no choir]
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This is some educational discussion here! :-P

I figured while my thread was being bumped I would update by saying my HEI distributor is in the mail. Scoured the Web for reviews and found a seller pushing a 65K coil'd one and it reviewed well (Ebay link to my distributor) .

I've been hunting for a good price (less than $100) for a Holley 4776 in rebuildable condition. I'd like it to have most of the parts and be in "working" condition, but in need of a rebuild. Question though, so I want a manual choke or electronic one? I've been looking for manual but am not sure what would be best for this application. This question just might show my lack of overall knowledge but I'd rather ask then get the less desirable option.

Also, does anyone have a suggestion for a fuel pump? I don't want a radical setup like snowman has, just a compatible, higher flowing fuel pump (at a budget price).

Thanks guys,

Ian
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#76995 - 09/19/13 07:27 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: TurboCamaro]
Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Offline
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Snowmans idea for race gas was using a separate fuel tank & was to put 91 octane in it for 15 +psi boost pressure w/no intercooler & no timing retard devise. (that was the race, 91 octane race gas configuration )

The original tank was used for 87 octane fuel & limit the boost to 12+ PSI.

How much boost are you looking to go to?
Electric choke just means it does not need you to mess with it manually. More of a hands off approach.

A manual choke, gives you the choice it your engine needs a choke for cold starts. Cold weather starts.
A manual choke allows you to see if the engine needs more fuel when boosting by closing the choke a bit & see if the engine likes it by basically enriching the A/F mixture.
Or it it falls on its face because it is way too rich by closing the choke a bit.

The distributer looks nice, hope it works out for you.

MBHD
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#77000 - 09/20/13 12:31 AM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
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Only time will tell with the distributor. Took a risk with the eBay cheapo but I wasn't happy with the prices of the nos ones and the aftermarket coil in cap ones (with a well known brand) seem overpriced. I know all the components are important but now that I have the distributor body, I can always replace a cheap internal (coil?) with a good one if it fails (or test out the "lifetime warranty").

I intend to keep it filled with 91 and I'm keeping my eye out for a deal on the Devils own stage 2 water/Meth system. I'll probably do at least 50/50 water/Meth. I will be getting the intercooler, BOV, piping and turbo from that Ebay seller, "CXRacing" mentioned earlier (he cut me a deal for the whole lot). I like that SPA wastegate I mentioned before so I'll likely get that. Will be getting the turbo cam and forged pistons from Tlowe. The 4776 carb (now looking for electric choke) and offy Intake. Obviously some machine work during the rebuild as well. I'm going to hold off on the timing retard device for now.

With the above installed and tuned, my goal is 12-15psi. I'm obviously interested in power, but fuel economy is a close second as I intend to drive it as a secondary vehicle, but all year around. I know the milage is going to suck, but if I have to drop to 10psi to save big money at the pump, I probably will. I think it's going to be a matter of finding a sweet spot in there. Let's put it this way, I want it to be able to do 15psi without breaking much of a sweat. I'd rather overbuild once and have it max out at 80% of its capability then be pushing it to 110% all the time. Also, this method allows me to change my mind someday and set it at 17psi and not worry about the pistons or intercooler I wish I had installed.

As far as the fuel pump, I want something as close to the stock look and operation as possible, at a reasonable price, that's going to give me adequate fuel for the above, and work well with the meth/Water system.

Ian


Edited by Ian67 (09/20/13 12:37 AM)
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#77005 - 09/20/13 08:11 AM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: TurboCamaro]
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Why do you think the milage is gonna "suck"? It will only "suck" when you are making the boost. You wont be on boost unless you want to and that will require you to be getting in to the throttle.. When you are driving like a citizen you wont be on boost, not making gazillion horsepower, not draining your tank by gallons per minute, not experiancing hardly anything different than you did with the stock version. Thus no different milage--in fact there have been a few situations where milage can improve during the non-boosted driving experiance due to the better atomization of the air-fuel being "whipped up" by the turbo's compressor--now at the same time dont count on it--I said "sometimes".
It takes a certain amount to propel a vehicle down the road at any different speed. Different vehicles-different hp requirements. An Old 1600 MGA might require say, sixty hp to go down the road at 60 mph. And at the same speed an MGB will require more hp due to its larger frontal area (which is why they had to put bigger 1800 engines in the B--kinda embarassing to the factory to have the older car be able to go faster).
Your throttle is your horsepower maker, the drain valve to your gas tank, and your turbo is the pump, so if you dont need the extra horsepower at the time, dont activate your horsepower maker, or your gas drain valve or your pump and you wont be using anymore gaoline that a stocker. But all that magic horsepower is very addictive, so spend the money for the safeguards, the forged pistons, the intercoolers, the water/alky injectors and magic timing adjusters--'cause they will always be there thinking "careful" when you aint. Oh yeah, dont worry 'bout the 409 stainless, the vendor will love to sell you the 300 series for your exhaust pipe!


Edited by preacher-no choir (09/20/13 11:02 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling

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#77008 - 09/20/13 02:07 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: preacher-no choir]
TurboCamaro Offline
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Registered: 08/10/10
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Thanks for the info. I just figured that the stock fuel milage would be better than the post-turbo configuration, even just because of the extra barrels on the carb. Haha, I will probably go with a full 3" 409 exhaust once it's all running. The overall appearence of the undercarriage of my car is not a concern of mine. Ill probably colorize the engine e components a bit but I'm not going to get carried away.

Ian
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67' Camaro - Performance 250 build - www.TurboCamaro.ca

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#77010 - 09/20/13 07:26 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: TurboCamaro]
Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Offline
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409 stainless is good for exhaust systems.
Many car manufactures use 409 stainless material for there exhaust systems, last a long time, but it does rust & this is OK when appearance is not a priority.
Ian67,
you made a good choice.

MBHD
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12 port SDS EFI

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#77019 - 09/21/13 07:29 AM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
preacher-no choir Offline
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Edited by preacher-no choir (09/21/13 09:05 PM)
Edit Reason: made hank mad

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#77021 - 09/21/13 10:03 AM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
preacher-no choir Offline
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Edited by preacher-no choir (09/21/13 09:06 PM)
Edit Reason: made hank mad

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#77023 - 09/21/13 10:40 AM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
lowboygmc Offline
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Registered: 11/20/12
Posts: 551
Loc: glendale,az
I think he was merrky stating it has inclusions which "could" and j mean could like te sun coul fall out of the sky be cause you never know

But he himsel has never seen one rust
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Josh
72 gmc lwb air ride 5 speed (soon) turbo 292 II# 6102

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#77026 - 09/21/13 12:23 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
preacher-no choir Offline
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Registered: 01/26/10
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Edited by preacher-no choir (09/21/13 09:07 PM)
Edit Reason: made hank mad

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#77027 - 09/21/13 12:41 PM Re: 67 Camaro - Blown 250 [Re: preacher-no choir]
Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Offline
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Moderators please delete the posts that does not pertain to the nice 67 blown Camaro. It would be nice to stay on topic & not be called out by snide comments. Also, if you could please just delete the rants that does not make any sense from PNC, it just does not belong here. It is detracting from the blown 67 Camaro. Thank you.

Here is a prime example "Besides, sometimes other trades have good applications to cars--like chrome drawer pulls when used in grilles, or "D" shaped aluminum extrusions used for intake manifold plenums, or dump truck ratio gears used in passenger cars--you got to be able to "think outside of the box" to be able to complete our backyard poolside projects in an economical manner-why buy a $250,000 program when a 300 dollar Mega-Squirt system will work just fine--just ask DIY"

My apologies Ian.
I deleted what I could.

Time to clean up this topic & get back to the blown Camaro.
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