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McGoo #90387 07/31/16 12:57 PM
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Got the car together and running. EFI on and tune just getting started.
Then the distributor gear piles up and takes the cam with it. mad

So gotta haul the car back to Calgary and get that crap sorted out. Looks like it's going to be a next year project now.

Paul


V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one.
69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
McGoo #90841 11/04/16 01:34 PM
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Well,.....according to the engine builder the reason the distributor gear roll pin came out of place is harmonics due to oil pump cavitation.

Im using a Melling M62HV oil pump. Anyone ever had any issues with that?

Paul


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69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
McGoo #90842 11/04/16 01:53 PM
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I've seen distributor gear pins staked or bradded. You'll have to use a slightly longer pin and maybe a little heat!!


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Blackwater #90843 11/04/16 01:58 PM
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They are tacking it in place with a spot weld, and machining the distributor collar to get a better fit to the cam gear.


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69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
McGoo #90939 11/25/16 09:01 PM
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That Camaro is awesome. That is some mighty fine 250 pron. Amazing work.


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McGoo #90947 11/26/16 07:58 PM
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I had nothing but problems running the Melling HV oil pump. I t wiped out 3 different cams and distributor gears. I switched to a standard volume pump and never had a problem since
MBHD

The two cams were Clifford's and one American camshaft all new distributor gears were installed.
If you insist on using a HV oil pump I would install a bronze distributor gear so it won't wear out the camshaft, but the distributor gear will need replacing after it gets worn, but it will save your camshaft.


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Thanks for the tip Hank.

Anyone else had issues with the Melling pump? Melling states that they have no known issues with the pump and they would like to have the old pump back.
The engine builder is absolving himself of any fault in this so I am looking at another few $K gust to get this thing running again.

If this keeps up I think it will be time to drop the 6 and go for an LS conversion.

Paul


V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one.
69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
McGoo #90999 12/03/16 09:23 PM
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A rule of thumb for SBC does not really apply to our 250 inlines about for every 1000 rpm you need 10 psi of oil pressure.
IIRC Mike Kirby had told me 40 psi at 6000 RPM would be OK for oil pressure.
There has been others that have had the same problem with that high volume pump causing wear on the camshaft and distributor gear.

MBHD


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JStewart #91062 12/10/16 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: JStewart
That Camaro is awesome. That is some mighty fine 250 pron. Amazing work.


Thanks, I just wish I had the chance to drive it this summer.

But, hot rod weather is just 6 months away so lots of time to get it ready.

Paul


V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one.
69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
McGoo #91063 12/11/16 02:21 PM
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Don't "tack" the distributor gear on the shaft. Drill the roll pin hole to 1/8, make a solid pin from 1/8 welding rod, and with a TIG torch ball up one end, insert pin and ball up the other end. Failure proof. I doubt the pin failure was caused by oil pump "cavitation". All HD Melling pumps I've used on O/T brand have work flawlessly

Last edited by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER; 12/11/16 02:21 PM.

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I have had problems with Melling pumps in Chevy big blocks and in Pontiac v-8. I will be hard pressed to use Melling pumps again and several other builders I know will not use them.

McGoo #91065 12/11/16 06:05 PM
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I guess I've been lucky then. Just out of curiousity, what was the nature of the failures you have experienced with them? Loss of pressure? galling / seizure? "cavitation"? Did the other builders experience the same kind of failures or different?


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McGoo #91081 12/14/16 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: McGoo

If this keeps up I think it will be time to drop the 6 and go for an LS conversion.


Dibs on your six stuff.

McGoo #92854 11/07/17 12:10 AM
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Well,.......

Can't get the car to run properly on the FAST XFI system.

After a lot of head scratching and a couple of beers, and great advice from Tom Lowe I am ditching the TBI and going with port injection.
Head is off and intake port dividers are going in.
Hopefully going to see some results in a few weeks.

Maybe some day I will actually get to drive this car.

Thanks again to Tom Lowe. His research, advice, and parts have been a good influence on this project.

Paul cool


V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one.
69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
McGoo #92855 11/07/17 12:19 AM
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Persistence goes a loooooong way.

McGoo #92859 11/08/17 12:53 AM
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Here is a question for the masses.

Knowing that the fuel atomization from the FAST TBI is not the greatest, is it worth it to even consider trying to run with boost using the TBI and the dividers, or am I likely to run into the same lean outside cylinders vs rich inside cylinders?

I'm thinking best option is cut to the chase and finish off the port injection, but I am curious if anyone has successfully run a boosted inline with TBI and the dividers?

Paul


V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one.
69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
McGoo #92860 11/08/17 11:09 AM
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My understanding from people who have done per cylinder O2 monitoring is the modern TBI fuel distribution problem is because the fuel is injected right into the plenum, and gets the full air distribution issues every intake manifold has. The old GM and other OE TBI's had the injector above the throttle blades which mixed the fuel into the air more evenly as it passed by the blades. Even when you can see fuel puddling up on the blades at part throttle! Basically equivalent to a carb.

I have not seen tests of the MSD Atomic unit, but the injectors are above the throttle blades so I'm assuming better fuel distribution.

McGoo #93802 04/05/18 09:20 PM
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Finally running at starting to feed it some boost.
this has been quite a wallet draining experience for many reasons but it is finally starting to look like I will be driving this thing soon. (not too soon as we are still enjoying winter weather).

https://youtu.be/U1UhIJ69BQk


V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one.
69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
McGoo #93803 04/05/18 09:57 PM
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The "10 psi per 1K RPM" works well in part because the manufacturers have cleverly sized the journals to provide enough bearing speed (opposing rotation) to make local (at the actual journal surface) pressure high enough - far more than the relief valve and gauge pressure.
This is one reason why slow-turning engines like the 235, GMC, Pontiac L6 have such large journals and safe operation with low gauge pressure - it increases local pressure from the same oil pump output.
Yes, that might be dangerous if using Honda 48mm rod pins, the local pressure is proportionate to the pin radius so 1.89" vs. 2.20" (BBC) is 14% less - with the same gauge pressure and pump output volume in GPM. Luckily there's a considerable safety margin or there would already be many loud noises!

McGoo #93830 04/10/18 11:57 PM
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Throw to distributor and oil pump away. I'm going with crank fired ignition and external oil pump on my blown 292.

mick53 #93843 04/12/18 10:10 PM
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I would definitely do crank trigger ignition if I was to do this again.


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69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
McGoo #94065 05/21/18 01:45 PM
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My Camaro has come close to being on the road but keeps coming up with issues.

Using the FAST EFI on my car we had horribly lean conditions on the outside cylinders. Couldn't even get the car to idle properly.

With Tom Lowe's advice we added intake port dividers. Then thought what the heck, lets spice things up a bit and went to a batch fired port injection system using the FAST ECM. It has made a huge difference overall but the material the shop used (thin gauge aluminum) to make the dividers folded over with boost and effectively throttled the two end cylinders. They have to go back in and use a heavier gauge material.

I have been reading through the various posts regarding intake port dividers (no shortage of posts on this topic!!) to try to determine what the best approach would be when the existing dividers are replaced. I want this to be the last time we have to take things apart so since it has been a while since much discussion on the divider topic, I have a couple of questions to toss out there for some discussion.

Is there any advantage to extending the dividers deeper into the intake manifold?

Should I stick with the lumps or ditch them?

Hopefully we get this sorted out and I can drive this thing. Might even catch up to you some day. My brother lives on the island and I might drive it out there for a visit once all is working the way I want it to.

Paul


V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one.
69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
McGoo #94068 05/21/18 10:50 PM
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Click the link below and this will be very similar to what you can expect by creating a divided port head. Start at page 13 and read to the end. The true EFI intake shown was designed exclusively to be used with divided ports on these heads, and you've already seen the benefits of dividing your head until the unfortunate hiccup with your dividers. But you can get there again. No, remove the lumps, they are no longer needed when you divide the ports, the divider creates the same high velocity because the ports are now singular and not siamese. HERE



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Thanks!!

I do appreciate the help.

I wish I had that Marshall intake manifold. Too late right now to get into a change like that.

I will discuss the feasibility of yanking the lumps when the dividers are redone. It looks like it might be worthwhile to push the dividers into the intake a certain amount.

I seem to recall seeing some photos of various versions of intake port dividers that went deep into the intake manifold. Not sure what the advantages or disadvantages are but the fact that the Marshall intake has completely divided runners suggests that the more separation I can get, the better?

My budget has run out a couple of years ago so if I can manage to get this right on the next go round I will hopefully have a car that I can drive this summer.

Paul cool


V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one.
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McGoo #94072 05/24/18 12:45 AM
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Not personal experience, but I would extend the divider into the manifold runner as far as possible.
Chrysler used the divider length as a tuning aid in the 1960-61 "long ram" B/RB 2 X 4 manifolds.

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That does make sense but looking at Tom's pictures from last April it looks like his divider extended slightly into the intake manifold. From what I have read here that setup has worked well.

I would love to have the budget to get the intake and head onto a flow bench and see what the effects are for future projects here, but I do have to stop spending money on this engine at some point.

Of course had I foreseen such issues, I would have spent the money on a 12 port head, intake and exhaust a few years ago and probably be enjoying the car right now.

Paul


V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one.
69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
McGoo #94074 05/24/18 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: McGoo


I would love to have the budget to get the intake and head onto a flow bench and see what the effects are for future projects here, but I do have to stop spending money on this engine at some point.



Paul


Been there and done that! Panic is correct about extending the dividers as far into the I take as possible. It's hard to Do without a purpose built intake like mine though. Do the the same in the cylinder head as well.



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Paul,

We did discuss the alternative and the 4200's are readily available in picknpull in Calgary for C$400 complete with harness and PCM .... put in new rings, bearings, timing chain, and new oil pump....

If you sold everything you have - at the end you would most likely come out $1000 ahead.... And make more power..

Last edited by efi-diy; 05/31/18 02:50 PM.

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efi-diy #94100 06/02/18 10:42 AM
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One day Marc I might just go that route.
But not in this car. cool

Paul


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69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
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The Marshall intake is beautiful! I'm tempted to pick up a second one, but I need to get this one running first!

McGoo #94885 12/12/18 03:01 AM
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Finally!!!!


After dealing with all of the setbacks and snails pace progress the engine is running to a level where it makes consistent and reliable power.

Best pull so far is 375 HP and 380 ft/lbs. torque to the rear wheels. this gives me my 400 HP at the flywheel that I was looking for.

Video below was a little less but still acceptable for now. I'll drive it a bit in the spring to sort out the car and enjoy it for a while. Then back to the dyne and some tweaks for more
power.

https://youtu.be/INknS0tmDAA


V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one.
69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
McGoo #94898 12/17/18 11:46 PM
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wow, huge congrats on getting your engine running! Looking forward to 400HP! Please post updates!

Last edited by moregrip; 12/17/18 11:46 PM.
panic #94929 12/28/18 01:38 PM
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panic...you mean where they issued a service "how to" to shorten the long ram intake internally to raise the power/torque happening rpm level by removing the "roof" of the ports near the carb end and cutting out the dividing wall then rewelding the "roof" back on??

Last edited by preacher-no choir; 12/28/18 01:39 PM.
McGoo #94937 12/29/18 10:39 AM
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Never read that, just 2 different part numbers. Jetting and other changes: unknown.

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it helped marginally on dragstrip but with 4.56 on the street was not worth all the work...car went faster with a plain ol' Edlebrock high rise and single holly 780 on his bored to 426 413 block '65 Belvedere body. original design was fine for highway driven heavy 300 car...really had boot at 70 for passing.

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McGoo,
nice work. That should be a pretty quick 6 congrats!

I have not been on for a long time because the only way to post was through my phone. P.I.T.A.

MBHD


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I’m new to inline engines, and I’ve been following this thread with interest. I have a similar project in process for me and my wife. It appears that one of the big keys to success is dividing the intake tract from the plenum to the valve; did you end up leaving the lump port inserts in, or did you take them out?

The chassis dyno video looked great. It’s smooth as silk! What camshaft numbers did you end up with for the solid flat tappet? How much boost did it take to make those power numbers?

Good job, and I salute your perseverance!


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Thanks Hank.

It's not over yet.
I have been busy with work and life so have not been able to get into the details.

I will admit that I was ready to pull the plug and part out the whole project about three months ago.

The good thing is I have learned a lot and hopefully will have an opportunity to share with others that are heading down this path.

I can certainly appreciate Tom Lowe's efforts to document his build project . His input, yours, and others, has been very helpful.

How is your Firebird coming along?

Paul

Last edited by McGoo; 01/08/19 12:37 AM.

V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one.
69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
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Travis,

I cannot say enough about port dividers. It is a must do.
My choice to use lumps and not dividers early on cost me a lot of money.

I will post pics or links of the final dividers used as soon as I can.

PM me if you have any questions.

Paul


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PM sent!


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