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From the info in the Santucci book, they list 3 different gear pitches. The first is 20° which is on the first upgrade, 14° which is on the first adjustable and then 0° which of course is the straight cut iron gear. My engine builder said the straight cut would be the strongest.

Scott, who has made the sets that you've seen? Were those Jesel too or someone else? Do you think it would be feasible/possible to cut extra keyways in the adjustable sets for 2° advanced and retarded adjustments? I think what's in those now is just 4°.

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Originally Posted By: Juicetone
In my research I'm seeing that Cloyes has already discontinued the 8-1016 and 8-1018 at least on their website. I know there are plenty still around. Looks like the only one they still make is the 2528S. http://cloyes.mycarparts.net/products/Cloyes-2528S?product_application_id=13394200090

The discontinued 8-1016 and 8-1018 are under a list of "Discontinued HP Items with no suggested alternate". I'm leaning toward the 8-1016 just because I figured it wouldn't whine as much plus it is adjustable. We had one in there from Clifford but lost it when we did another rebuild. Anyone have any recommendations? I'm concerned the 8-1018 will be too loud.


Apparently the link doesn't work anymore and I can't edit it.

http://cloyes.mycarparts.net/products/Cloyes-2528S?product_application_id=13419502520

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Why would the cam need to be reverse rotation?

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Gears: turn opposite directions
Belt or chain: turn the same direction

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Originally Posted By: Juicetone
From the info in the Santucci book, they list 3 different gear pitches. The first is 20° which is on the first upgrade, 14° which is on the first adjustable and then 0° which of course is the straight cut iron gear. My engine builder said the straight cut would be the strongest.

Scott, who has made the sets that you've seen? Were those Jesel too or someone else? Do you think it would be feasible/possible to cut extra keyways in the adjustable sets for 2° advanced and retarded adjustments? I think what's in those now is just 4°.

The belt drives were Jesel. I saw the first one back in the late 80's. Most builders agree that advancing the cam as little as 2 degrees will be of little benefit, so that's why most timing sets, even on V8's have 4 degree keways in them.



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And then there is always this option.
HERE!



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CNC-Dude, I was thinking the same thing,
http://www.rm-competicion.com.ar/principal.htm


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I had forgotten about them also Rich until the light bulb went off. We need to start looking and thinking outside the box, because there are much larger inline product markets outside the US than we realize. Many of these predominately inline countries outside the US have all the resources within their own countries and do not need to come to US companies for their inline needs.

If you were to add up all the combined US motorsports racing groups we have here from even the most entry level of street and racing genres such as dirt track, drag racing, offshore boat, asphalt oval track, karting, motorcycle, Bonneville, etc and any other form of racing we do here and indulge in. And add them all together, then multiply it by 3 or 4 times, that's how large the inline Chevy and Ford performance market is just in Brazil alone. If you take that same total of US racing groups I mentioned above and get a total of the Chevy and Ford inline performance market from that, it probably wouldn't even be a full 1% of that total group. That's why more and more US companies are dropping inline oriented products from their catalogs and product lines.



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To clarify juicetone's comment:

The 14.5 and 20 degree angles refer to the pressure angle of the gear teeth. This is the shape of the teeth. 20 degree may be marginally stronger than 14.5 degree but in my opinion the cam gears are plenty robust either way.

The zero degree refers to the helix angle of the teeth or sometimes called straight cut or spur gears. Spur gears should be stronger than helical gears but again, I don't think strength of this gearset is in question. Helical gears will exhibit axial thrust and will be quieter compared to spur gears.

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Originally Posted By: CNC-Dude #5585
Straight cut will be louder. Don't know if that makes them better or worse. Most racers use the aluminum gear set which is not straight cut if that helps answer your question.


The noise isn't an issue since I'm running open header and will be running an open exhaust out of the turbo when I finish the overhaul.


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Originally Posted By: CNC-Dude #5585
And then there is always this option.
HERE!


We need to find a translator and perhaps an importer!! Anybody here speak Brazilian Portugese?? If my calculations are correct, that unit runs about $1,921.00!

Last edited by Blackwater; 02/28/18 01:46 AM.

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Those are in Argentina.
Here is the exchange rate.
6,285 ARS =310.945USD

Now get to buying. Always buy more than 1, sell the extra.


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Originally Posted By: tlowe #1716
Those are in Argentina.
Here is the exchange rate.
6,285 ARS =310.945USD

Now get to buying. Always buy more than 1, sell the extra.


Thanks, Tom!! My mistake!! $310.00 U.S. dollars ain't too bad!!! Wonder what the import fee and shipping would be??


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TLowe,
If you make it to PRI this year, talk to the folks at Saenz connecting Rods. Several years ago when I was there ,we talked to them and they make Rods for the Chevy 250 and the ford 200. We got to talking about parts for the inline sixes and I got buisness cards from them and met some of their other parts people. They had billet cranks guaranteed to 10,000 rpm, headers lightweight clutches etc.I will try to find those again.


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Panic: thanks, I don't know why I didn't think of that. I knew that but just didn't think of it.

Thanks Scott. I wondered if there were some other options. And I've said this before about thinking outside the box. It's just going to take doing a little something different to get a little different results.

Stroker, I figured the 20° would be the weakest it being a step up from the fiber gear and on the opposite end of the straight notably being the strongest.

Thanks for all the replies gentlemen!

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14.5 versus 20 refers to pressure angle:

https://www.quora.com/What-if-we-increase-the-pressure-angle-in-gear

14.5 used to be very common. Current practice for most gearing is 20 degree pressure angle.

Zero refers to helix angle:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helix_angle

Zero helix angle means a straight cut or spur gear.


Last edited by strokersix; 02/28/18 08:29 AM.
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I would run 20 degree pressure angle helical gearing if I had a choice. Smooth running and quiet while being plenty strong for the application.

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I'm planning on running the straight cut gears to reduce thrust on the cam retainer.

I'm ALSO planning on using the ATI damper/harmonic balancer!! I used them on my big block drag cars with confidence. When the SFI rules began calling for them, we started with the old Moroso balancer and lost a couple of crankshafts.

Jim Beatey, the founder of ATI sent us one of his balancers to try and the dyno showed a measurable gain in HP. The vibration was eliminated and harmonics almost disappeared completely, even on the 454" based engines!!

We tried Fliudamper and the TCI clutch style one as well. Went back to ATI and stayed! GM started using them later, as did several other manufacturers.

If I decide the next build, (if there is a next build) merits one, I'll be in the market for one of those Joseph timing gear sets.


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Blackwater: What's the helical gearing thrust failure mode you are trying to avoid? I don't doubt you, rather would like to learn. Does it wear out the backside of the cam gear? Wear the thrust plate itself? Are you running an oil pump driven off the cam?

My mild engines have never shown any sort of problem with the stock cam drive design but maybe racing is different.

Your damper experience was it with v8 or was it with inline six?

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Usually, the thrust sends the camshaft deeper into the block. I'm not sure about the inliners as I've never paid any attention to the stockers I've run or worked on.

Yes! My oil pump will run off of the camshaft using the same gear as the distributor. Again, not sure about the induced thrust from this. I'll know before I'm finished assembling this little guy.

My concern with the thrust is really low. I really wanted to know about the strength of the iron gear and the difference in the straight cut and the helical gear teeth. My other concern, the thrust issue, was just as related to the change in timing if the camshaft moved back and forth on acceleration and deceleration. We used a cam button on our V8s to prevent the camshaft from traveling back and forth.

I mentioned the ATI damper because of comments on another thread about harmonic vibrations as related to the four cylinders. Some of the Iron Duke cranks have fewer counter weights and most are much smaller and builders in the past have mentioned the harmonic vibration issue. This particular design, (the ATI damper) is made just for those problems and is "tunable" to help relieve and eliminate harmonics.

MOST of my experience is with V8s in this area. Ford, Chevy/GM, Chrysler race engines ALL benefited from the use of the ATI damper. I HAVE seen several used on inline 6s and even ODD FIRE V6s with no reports of problems and they are inherently safer in high performance applications.


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Sometimes a better damper finds & fixes a momentary valve spring surge that was actually inherited from the harmonics.

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Stroker, I know you guys know more about this than I but I just don't see how a higher pitch (20° in this case) is stronger than something with a straight cut gear? Is it because it has more tooth contact?

Blackwater, thanks for the info on the balancer. Where will you source the ATI balancer? Thanks.

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Juice:

I think you are confusing three different gear geometry terms. Pressure angle, helix angle, and pitch are different and independent characteristics.

First, pressure angle refers to the shape of the involute curve which defines the tooth geometry. 20 degree is most common, 14.5 is old school. Pressure angle can be anything for custom designs but is standardized to 20 degrees for ease of manufacture, inspection, etc.

Helix angle refers to the twist of the teeth. It's probably about 30 degrees for stock inline gears.

Pitch refers to the size of the teeth. It is number of teeth per diameter or diameter per number of teeth if metric. I would have to look it up to be sure.

Does that help?

Blackwater: Inline thrust plate clearance is about .004 inch for a stock setup. This is all the cam movement allowed. You can easily alter this figure if desired. Oil pump will continuously draw the cam rearward so I'm not sure how much effect on timing you might see.

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Thanks for that, panic. I was always a little puzzled by dramatic power loss, won't rev, etc blamed on harmonics. Harmonics exciting valve springs is a legitimate explanation.

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Juicetone, I bought a nice used one for my big small block project, (another story) at a swap meet a few weeks ago for $100.00. As long as the unit isn't damaged, ATI will "rebuild" it for $75.00 plus shipping. For this project, (my 154" 4 banger) I'll probably buy a new one from ATI or one of the catalog speed shops.

Strokersix, thanks for the info! I doubt that one could take out much play at .004". Below that, you'd likely run into lubrication problems. I'm thinking the only advantage to running a straight cut gear set would be to reduce the possibility of wear on the cam retainer and lower friction in the meshing of the gears. The other advantage of the strait cut gears is, I have a set already.

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Sealed Power aluminum Cam gear # 221-2526 54 teeth, Helix degrees 23, Helix minutes 25 Steel crank gear #221-2537 27 teeth, Helix degrees 23 Helix minutes 17. These are from the gear info I posted a while back.


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Isky had a problem with a engine way back, had a big power drop at a specific RPM and killed MPH, but didn't show up on the dyno.
The Spintron found it: a harmonic at a speed in between the increments Isky used. He tested every 500 RPM, viz. 5,000, 5,5000, 6,000, this was at 5,200 RPM and not tested under load.
The Spintron showed the valve springs hopping up and down, on & off the spring seats like a sparrow in a bird bath.
Better damper fixed it.

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Thanks Stroker. Pitch is definitely not what I was referring to then. I figured that had to do with the angle. I've never heard of pressure angle before this.

Blackwater, thanks. I would really like to use a good balancer on this build. Although I haven't looked I thought they may be hard to find.

I bought a Cloyes 8-1016. I'm not sure which pressure angle it is though.

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Juice!! I've seen the damper for a small block chevy used. The crank snout is the same diameter. The ATI is available with a poly-groove pulley built into the outer shell as well as other options. They offer mandrels to run toothed, (blower drive) pulleys as well.

Panic, I'd like to see that video of Isky's harmonic demonstration!! I remember Smokey Yunick's demo with the electrically driven engine assembly, (basically a V8 compressor) and some of the research he developed.


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As many of you know, I'm working on an old Chevy II engine for a rat rod project. I had the engine combination mostly worked out and then this complete '79 Buick turbo package stumbled into the picture, (I'm a sucker for weird stuff) trying to confuse the issue.

My engine package is built around a 9.5 to 1 compression ratio with turbo/nitrous capable forged pistons, six inch H-beam rods, a 181 crankshaft set up to provide a .400" longer stroke, a ported head with larger stainless valves, better springs, retainers, and keepers, and a performance oriented, (roller if I can find one) camshaft.

This turbo is capable of up to 12 lbs. of boost which will be excessive on pump gas. I can adjust the boost down considerably to reach a safe cylinder pressure. This isn't exactly what I'd like to do.

I'm wondering how much boost I could run and if the performance could be improved by setting this up to run E85. I have all steel fuel lines. The electric fuel pump is alcohol friendly. I can rebuild either carburetor that I have to run on alcohol or blended fuel.

This is a very simple little car with NO electronics used. Those first Regals had little if any computerized spark or fuel control and I'd like to keep it that way.

This one needs to be CAVEMAN friendly!!

My Jeep truck project has ALL the bells and whistles with electronic fuel injection, computer controlled automatic transmission, and even ABS brakes. I'm keeping the two of them separated!!

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Big improvement not only in max boost, but how (excessively) rich and how much spark it will stand for anti-knock.
Someone I know with a serious Supra engine has about 20% more power on E85 than pump gas at 30 psi.

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Looks like I might be in for a few tuning lessons!! Never ran a blended setup. I've run straight methanol and even some nitro, but none of them with a turbo.

Like the little robot in "Short Circuit"!! "NEED INPUT!!!"


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The gearset is in. I still don't know what pressure angle it's on though. I can get the part numbers on the individual gears and also a tooth count if anyone is curious.

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Post a photo of the gearset looking straight at it. It's most likely 20 degrees pressure angle. There is a visible difference between 14.5 and 20 degree pressure angle especially on the crank gear. 20 will be a fatter tooth with a pointy tip.

As long as you have a matched set it doesn't matter.

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Interesting. That looks like 14.5 deg pressure angle.

Pretty sure I have a set of each. I will take a look to compare.

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The actual octane rating on E-85 at a gas station is all over the place. It differs among suppliers and batches no matter what the pump says.

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The authority dictating the actual percentage of ethanol in the pump E85 is the ethanol manufacturer (who is subsidized by taxpayers): ADM, a/k/a Archer-Daniels-Midland, who pretty much owns Iowa and the corn business.
Corn-derived alcohol is that rare substance that requires more energy (and money) to produce it that it liberates when burned (and sold).

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Follow-up: Juice, I found two crank gears today. One was marked '64 292 and is salvaged from an engine I tore down long ago. It looks like yours for gear tooth shape. The other one I have has fatter and pointy teeth origin unknown but guessing '70s vintage 250. I saved the early parts because I felt them to be useable parts.

I wouldn't hesitate to use yours.

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Thanks Stroker. We lent our Santucci book out so I don't have those picture references with me. The things I said earlier in the thread about the book were from memory. I'll have to check again when I look at it. I do remember a picture they had all of the gears lined up in what seemed like weakest to strongest. In that picture the 20° was first, then the 14°, then the straight cut. That's why I figured the 20° was the weakest.

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