Inliners International Forums General Discussion Engines Can an Inline 6 beat a Flat v8?

I think YES! Afterall, "back in the day" 216s and 235s used to compete with Ford Flat 6s and 8s and win at least as much as they lost, right?

Here's why I ask. I'm building a 48 Chevy coupe and my friend is building a 50 Ford 2 door sedan, so partly to thump the gospel of the Inliner and partly to motivate my friend to get off his butt and work on his car, I challenged him to a race. So far all that's accomplished was make him change his mind from running a double deuce intake to running 6 Strombergs... which means it will be a few years before he has enough parts!

Anyway, I really want to show people that an I6 is nothing to be scoffed at, especially all the flatheaders out there. Here's what I have. 1960 235 bored .06 over with split exhaust manifold, a dual Tattersfield intake with Carter W-1s, and a vintage Mallory dual point dizzy. The car will have 54 Chevy drums up front and either an S10, Nova, or tri-5 Chevy rear (basically whatever I find first; i was thinking around 3,5-3.7:1 gears) and the stock '60 3 on the tree tranny. Since the cars and drivers are roughly the same weight (except flatties weigh more), and both will be lowered and on bias plys, then the competition should really be all about the engines.

I want to make sure I win and I want a tire-smoking, yet street legal/driveable car. It won't be a daily driver or anything, but it must be capable of making long, long trips to shows. The other rule is we must build the cars as they would've been built back in the 50s or early 60s, so no HEI, fuel injection, etc.

Don't you love how it takes me forever to get to the question? So, what do I need to do next? I've read Roger Huntington, California Bill, and Santucci's books. Santucci seems to really focus on 292s and cars built for the strip, but still some great info. I plan on buying a new cam and installing it this winter while the engine is out of the car. I was thinking of a 3/4 Howard cam, but would I be better with something else? what degrees? It seems as though porting the heads gives little gain for the money, and I'm on a tight budget. Tubular push rods? Dump the 3spd and go for a T5? How should I be steering this project?

I'm thinking I can write an article for the 12 Port News about this when it actually happens!

Joe

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'50 Chevy Fleetline DeLuxe ('55 235)
'48 Chevy Fleetmaster coupe ('60 235)
Chicago
http://www.geocities.com/hellfish122

If you want to smoke the Flathead with 6 pots, you'll need more torque & HP to do it.
Here's how;

Drop the 235 and go with a 250 or 292. The flathead guys would never know the difference. The longer stroke and bore will give you the extra power to knock them off.
Intake- A Clifford water heated single 4 barrel with at least a 650 cfm carb.Ask Twisted-6 for details. Go with a 270 Stage 2 type cam, definately headers with chambered mufflers. A T-5 from a Camero/Firebird would do just fine and give you better MPG on the freeway, but for all out racing, go with a T-10, or M-21, M-22.

Optional extra HP and bragging rights, go to a dual 4 barrel or side drafts.

Depending on your budget and desire to not only kick Flathead butts, you'll be able to keep vettes and Mustangs in your rear view mirrow too.

Put up or shut up!

RapRap
1940 Chevy Coupe

How much money do you want to spend and how close to the 50-60s rule must you be? Since you mentioned a T-5, being period correct must only apply to the motor or? There are repro HP heads available that are duplicates of the original go fast parts, you can go to three Webers etc. Going with a floor shift will help your ETs and 4 speed will be better than the 3 speed if period correct does matter. You can even add an overdrive to the back of a Saginaw 4 speed if you can find the pieces to make a good compromise.
If you go with the 55+ GM rear, you can have different pumpkins that can be swapped out easily for racing vs. crusing; the other choices require a lot more work to change gears.

You can also do a lot to reduce the car's weight, which is as good or better than adding power. It all depends on exactly what the "rules" that you two agree to are.

Worse case, make the day of the race some where in the 90s and require a 50 mile drive prior to racing. The flathead will overheat and you will win by default.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

I want to stick really close to the vintage rules. The rear end won't look all that different whether it's 57 Chevy or 74 Nova, plus it'll be hard to see anyway. The T5 is also not much of a violation. The car and engine must look vintage.

RapRap, I thought about the 292, but that would require me to start all over from scratch, new engine, new carbs, new intake, etc, plus they weren't around in the 50s. A 261 would be a good choice, but I haven't been able to find one in over a year, and now I have a running, bored over 235. I pretty much have everything I need to get going with the 235. In stock form, I think the 235 and the 8BA have similar HP ratings, so it's an ideal match for comparing engines and builder skill.

Bruce, can you tell me more about those heads? You don't mean the new Wayne stuff do you? That would be really cool, but I think that would cost more than what I have in the car so far including the car itself!

what are some suggestions for lightening the car up? I probably will chop it a few inches eventually, but that won't save a lot of weight. The seats need to stay in and I hate buckets.

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'50 Chevy Fleetline DeLuxe ('55 235)
'48 Chevy Fleetmaster coupe ('60 235)
Chicago http://www.geocities.com/hellfish122

[This message has been edited by Hellfish (edited 10-07-2003).]

The cars are about equal on paper, So you need an advantage. Try to reduce weight where possible and gear the car down with a 4.11 rear. Change to a T5 or OD tranny for a reasonable cruising speed. Don't go radical with the cam, a 235 doesn't breathe well enough to use a hot cam. Your advantage will be the inline's torque so be sharp off the line. Practice on some test'n tune nights, and keep it to an 1/8 mile if possible.

I'm no expert, but if your friend is going to run 6 carbs, he's going to need a lot of motor under them, like a radical cam, compression and porting (plus a 5000rpm launch speed!)

When he steps on it I think it just might fall on its' face!

Over-carburating a street engine is something I learned about a long time ago.

Yes, the Wayne et al heads would be a big improvement with a big price tag. You know the flathead will end up with aluminum heads.
It will only take a second mortgage.

As far as weight, removing the front bumper was definitely a period improvement and can easily be put back on. More radical items would be an aluminum radiator, aluminum intake, tube headers with short or no exhaust system, glass hood and or fenders, replace the side glass with Lexan and putting light weight narrow front wheels and tires on the front. Theoretically, every 100lbs removed will decrease et by a tenth. Another thing to check is to make sure the brake shoes are not dragging on the drums.

Best of luck!

I thought a 4.11 gear was a disadvantage for highway driving! So it's good for racing though. I've been trying to find 3.5 or 3.7 gears. Hmm, not worth sacrificing 99.99% of the car's drivability for one race. So a T5 would counteract the problems of driving 70mph with 4.11 gears?

I thought about the over-carburetion, too. By the time he gets all the parts he needs I will have retired my car!

thanks for all the help!

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'50 Chevy Fleetline DeLuxe ('55 235)
'48 Chevy Fleetmaster coupe ('60 235)
Chicago
http://www.geocities.com/hellfish122

With a T5 or some other overdrive transmission, you can live with 4.11 gearing on the highway. A .72 5th gear reduction will give you a 2.95 cruising gear - the best of both worlds. The S10 T5s are plenty strong for a mild 235 - see our tech tips for more info.

so a 4.11 with a T5 would be just as good as a 3.7 and a 3 speed for road race and cruising? Not that I'll do much, if any racing. I like the column shifter, but wouldn't mind a floor shifter.

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'50 Chevy Fleetline DeLuxe ('55 235)
'48 Chevy Fleetmaster coupe ('60 235)
Chicago
http://www.geocities.com/hellfish122

The T5, by virtue of the overdrive 5th gear, would be a nice improvement for highway cruising. Off-the-line performance will depend on the internal gearing of of the transmission, especially low gear - some of the S-10 T5's had a pretty steep 1st gear that wouldn't be much good with a 4.11 rear. None of the truck trannies are considered to be close ratio, you would need a Camaro T5 for that.

Here is some peace of mind for You.


The 00.6 overbore will give you 10 more horses plus better torque.

You gave the engine the ability to breathe in and out (carbs and split exhaust) but you kepp the mouth (valves) shut.

So for your setup all i would recomend is a good cam. I recomend a rumpy Howards 3/4 or even better one of tom Langdons Bulldog cams.

Your setup (as far as i can make a long distance diagnosis) should make about 150 HPs at the rear end.

For your information: The Dynotests of California Bill in the 50es showed that the 100 hp factory reated flathead only gives 70-80 fresh from the Factory.

So with some hop up as described (he`ll never get the 6 Strombergs running syncron on a flatty anyways ;.)
we talk about 120 hp on the Ford.

When you install one of the cheapo (check the thread in this forum) water injections and get a better cam, you will smoke him.

Here in Germany we had a Quatermile Race last month. Only oldshool rods most 235 vs. flattheads. Check out the times they run.
www.hotheadseast.com

Tons of great pics to!

Have fun, and many greetings from sunny southern Germany, Frank

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LIVING IN THE PAST TODAY
http://www.TheSavoy.de

Last weekend in Bakersfield at the NHRA Cal. Hot Rod Reunion the 3 Kay Sissel built Chevy 6 cars were faster then all but a twin flat head dragster.

Mike Kirby keeps the 6 cyl spirit alive out of Covina, Cal. and runs the old Sissel twin 6 rail (2x250) to 8.60 e.t.s in the 1/4 mile. Jim Eggleston out of Las Vegas runs the Sissel T roadster with a 301 and it runs high 8's to low 9's. It was the 1962 Winter Nations winner and NHRA record holder.

I had a modified MOPAR 218 flat head 6 in a '48 coupe and never got beat by a Ford Flat head V8 in a Ford car. Got beat by a turbo Air Flow 6 at Palmdale.

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Bob Beck

Just a short note to get some facts straight. The twin engine flathead dragster at the Hot Rod Reunion at Bakersfield never ran quicker than 8.60. Their best time ever was 8.23. All these runs were on 90 percent nitro. The Kirby/Sissell twin chevy dragster runs a 7.60 index class very successfully with a best ET of 7.49. All of Mike's runs are on alcohol only. His best ET of Bakersfield Hot Rod Reunion was 7.53.
Thanks,
Bob Corbett

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Hellfish,
I agree with you. I believe that a well set up 235 would develope the torque/horsepower to beat an equally built stock sized flathead.However, few people go to the considerable expense of building up a stock sized flathead. With this in mind, I would urge you to go to the trouble of finding a 261. About 50 years ago, Racer Brown showed us how to pull almost 200 horsepower (197 in fact)at a low 4500 rpm from a well set up 261 which had been bored out to 278 cubic inches.I've never seen a streetable flathead (normally aspirated, on pump gasoline) pull that kind of power.
With that in mind, I would like to make one suggestion. While the t-5 transmission is a fine piece, I think that the idea of the column shifted 3 speed has much to recommend for it. The flat torque curve of the type of engine we've been discussing make the additional forward gears almost redundant. If you stick with the 3 speed, however, go with the 1966 and later GM saginaw 3 speed. It too was available with overdrive (up to 1969), and the fully synchronized design is much stronger than the t-5! It was the standard manual transmission, even for the 427,big block full size cars, vans, 1/2 to 3/4 ton trucks, etc. Just substituting the 1966 and later transmission for the '65 and earlier (sliding gear design)can cut a full 1/2 second from your et! Just my 2 cents! (P.S.) If you want a Saginaw 4 speed with an overdrive unit already attached, I have one available! Call me @ (770) 683-7982

A 261 would be great, and it would accept all my 235 speed parts, but I haven't seen one within reach in over a year! Maybe I'll find one in a junk yard this winter.

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'50 Chevy Fleetline DeLuxe ('55 235)
'48 Chevy Fleetmaster coupe ('60 235)
Chicago
http://www.geocities.com/hellfish122

If you look in the Canadian yards there is a lot of them (261's)I'm told etc.

You might check with Patrick's in Arizona or Tom's Truck Parts in Oakloma.

261's are not that rare (except in California). They can go to 278" and look just like a 235" on the outside.

Good luck, John M., #3370

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Jim Carter Classic Trucks usually has rebuilt 261 short blocks for about $1500; all 235 parts (head, pan etc) will bolt right on. Langdon's Stovebolt Engine Co can also supply 261 rebuilds at similar prices.

Or for the ultimate "unfair advantage", you could build a 290 cu in 261 stroker as per Tom Langdon's article in the current 12 Port News.

Of course, a lot depends on how much money is on the line for this match race...

Jack, which current issue? The most recent one I have is July/August and it's not in there.

There's no money involved in this race, just bragging rights. My main goals were to motivate him to finish his car and to prove that inlines are nothing to laugh at. I've been seeing a lot of inlines popping up in early 30s hot rods lately, most recently a straight 8 Olds in a T bucket.

If this race ever happens, I'll be contributing an article to the 12 Port News.

BTW, OK, CA, and Canada are exactly what I meant by being "not in reach", but I may have just found one.

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'50 Chevy Fleetline DeLuxe ('55 235)
'48 Chevy Fleetmaster coupe ('60 235)
Chicago
http://www.geocities.com/hellfish122

Well, after more than a year of mildly searching, I finally found a 261 less than an hour from home. I don't know if it works yet, but I didn't see any obvious problems with it.

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'50 Chevy Fleetline DeLuxe ('55 235)
'48 Chevy Fleetmaster coupe ('60 235)
Chicago
http://www.geocities.com/hellfish122