Inliners International Forums General Discussion Engines 292 running rough

It's been about a year since I've been active on this board.

For those that don't remember me, I bought a rebuilt 292 and swapped out the cam. I installed it in a 70 c-10, but never really got it running well. I bought another truck, and decided that I wanted to keep the 292 and put it in my nova.

I'm finally getting to the point where I have the time to pull the 292 out of the truck and put it in my nova. I moved about a year ago, got involved a couple of other projects and starting working 60 hours per week.

So, I guess my question now is, should I just pull the 292 or get it running well first? I got it running well enough last year just for the move(about 10 miles). I tinkered with it some, but it runs rough. I would like it to run better before I pull it, just so I feel better about the whole thing.

The trunk run and starts ok. It sputters when I turn off the key. When I start off down the road, it pulls ok for a very small bit, then gets bogged down. When it is running and I put my hand over the end of the breather, it almost immediately stalls out. What do you think is wrong with it?

Sounds like you may be carbonned/gummed up. If it has been sitting that long, $10 for a can of carb spray and a jug of Techron in the tank along with a good visual inspection might be all you need. Also check for adequate exhaust flow.

please excuse my ignorance, but where should I spray the carb cleaner? Just take off the breather and start spraying? How much?

Techron - this stuff?
http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/additives/concentrate_plus.shtml

Thanks for the help!

OK before you spray anything....engine must be cold, rags around the base of the carb, safety glasses on (or squint) just kiddin'. Normally when a carb has sat for a long time with fuel in it, the fuel turns into a varnish like material. This varnish forms on any surface that the fuel is in contact with. As to where you need to spray the carb cleaner, that depends on the model/type of carb. The obvious places are; down the throat, the bowl/float area and any orifice that you can get the spray tube into from the can of cleaner. Be careful, some orifices are deadends and the carb spray will come back at you. If you have the manual for the carb you can follow the path of the fuel as it enters the carb. As far as "how much" use as needed to displace any "gra-doo" technical term. Then wait a few minutes for the cleaner to evaporate before starting the engine. You may get a few puffs of white smoke out of the exhaust on start-up, this is normal. Additioinally you can spray a small amount into the carb when it is running and manually feeding in some acceleration. This will clean deposits downstream of the carb. Too much will stall the engine. As for the techron, yes that is the one to use in the tank.

thanks 6T4Duce, I appreciate the help and the pics that you sent me. Did you happen to get my reply to your email?

Thanks.

There's probably 'multi problems' with your engine/vehicle and you need to tow it to a professional repair service & have it analized there.

We can't do that for you here; sorry.

Good luck.

63,
Got your email. Sent a reply.

thanks 6t4Duce.

by 'breather' in the first post, I meant 'air cleaner.'

I tried cleaning the carb and used the techron, but it did not seem to help much. I've posted a few pics - they're huge, I've been told not to post big pics here- over on my personal website:
http://lyndonjscott.com/photos/galleries/carrepair/nova_292_install/

if anyone would like to take a look at the pics and the questions, then post their suggestions here, that would be great.

thanks for looking

-63ChevyII

The rod (#5 in the second set of pictures) appears to be the choke pull off rod and should be attached to the flat spring mounted to the manifold just below and to the right of the float bowl in the picture (you might want a new one as that one looks kinda thrashed).

The solenoid (#1 same picture) is to add idle speed when something draws more power (HP) do you have AC perhaps?

I would put a longer piece of hose there (#1 last batch of carb photos) as it is kinking the one there.


It's probably not your problem but I DESPIZE aluminum terminal caps. I had one that was less than a year old that made the engine run poorly on my Dodge (318 / 5.2 V whatchamacallit but same principle)it was idling rough and wouldn't accelerate like it should (or tow worth a darn). I replaced the cap and rotor with a Neihoff brand brass terminal cap and the rotor that went with it(Shucks) for $13. It cured the problem and has lasted for the last 4 years. I should probably change it again as I'm sure it's due, but it's still working.

Oh yeah, if the rotor is dragging on the cap, you are getting spark scatter as the rotor will 'snap' ahead whenever it releases from the drag on the cap. How much who knows, but everything can add up.

Gentlemen;

If/when the rotor hits the cap, the cap breaks.

Sorry; that's not it.

Good luck.

What do you think I should do about the cap/rotor? I'm not sure if they were the same brand or not. Should I buy a new matching set? Any recommended brands?

When I replaced the cap and rotor, I replaced them b/c this was already happening... chances are the cap and rotor aren't the problem?

Try wiping out the inside of the cap, using a clean rag with some alcohol/laquer thinner on it & see if things improve.

Good luck.

Hi Walt,

please excuse my ignorance, but how do I check this?

When I got my 292 the previous owner said it ran really good...sometimes. The first thing I checked was the distributor wear. The shaft at the rotor could be moved sideways about .040, slightly more than the point gap. It is a wonder it ran at all. Just see if the rotor shaft has any side movement by hand. This will cause changes in timing, etc. S

On Twisted6's suggestion, I pulled off the timing cover to take a look at the end of the cam to make sure it didn't walk on the gear. It looks like it is fine, but now I'm really confused:

I stuck a rag in the #1 sparkplug hole and turned the engine over. When the rag was spit out of the hole, the engine was on the compression stroke for #1, correct? This means that the #1 cylinder should be at (or near) the top of its movement and the following valves are ready to be adjusted:
#1 Intake & Exhaust
#2 I
#3 E
#4 I
#5 E
This is what the lifters under the the side cover closest to the front of the engine look like:


To me, this confirms that #1 is set to fire. When I look at the timing marks, though, this is what I see:


When I turn the crank one rotation (until the timing marks are aligned), I think the #6 is on its compression stroke. Which means that that the following valves are ready to be adjusted:
#2 E
#3 I
#4 E
#5 I
#6 IE
Looking at the picture below confirms that #6 is firing I believe:


When I looked at the timing marks though, they are lined up.

At first I was thinking that the cam gear was install 180 degrees out on the cam. How can this happen with a woodruff key?

Sorry if this is the long way around, but I think it will help explain better what you are seeing. The compression and exhaust strokes look very close to the same at the beginning. The following is actually instructions for a valve adjust, but should sow you the difference.

Split the firing order in half:

1 5 3
6 2 4

These vertical pairs are "companion" cylinders, both at the top at the same time, but 360 degrees out of phase with each other. When #6 cylinder has the exhaust valve closing, and the intake valve slightly open, #1 is ready for adjustment.

Hope this helps, I'm sure there will be others.

Larry

Thanks Larry,

That makes sense to me.

Someone on another board thought that the crank was installed 180 degrees out. Does anyone have any input on whether the crank is installed 180 degrees out? Can someone explain to me step by step what I need to do to fix this? Do I need to pull out the cam and rotate the crank 180 degrees then install the cam? I want the timing marks to be lined up and the lifters for the #1 intake and exhaust to be at the bottom, correct?

The crank can not be installed 180 out. The gear on the crank is keyed. The photo of the timing gear and crank shows the cam 180 out. When you move the two marks till they are next to each other, is the timing mark at TDC?


Larry

Hi Larry, thats what I thought, but I was corrected by someone.

When the marks line up, the timing mark is at TDC, but I believe its on the exhaust stroke, based on the way the lifters are.

The gears are installed corectly or the engine wouldn't stare & run etc.

They are probably Mfg okay too.

Adjust the valves like Larry said and see how it runs then.

Good luck.

Your four strokes are, intake, compression, power, and exhaust.

When the timing mark is at TDC you've finished compression and the fuel is ready to ignite for power.

Larry

I may not be explaining the situation well, or else I'm extremely confused. I'll try to re-explain how I got to this point.

I first thought that I had a problem when I took off the side covers as a way to re-assure myself that I was adjusting the valves correctly (Twisted6's suggestion). My understanding is that you adjust the valves when they are closed all of the way, meaning that the lifters are at their lowest point. The manual I have says to adjust the 'first group' of valves (#1 Intake & Exhaust,#2 I,#3 E,#4 I,#5 E) when #1 is set to fire.

If I'm not mistaken #1 should be set to fire when the marks on the cam gear and the crank are lined up. When they are lined up, the lifters that should(based on info above) be adjusted are not at their lowest point. The valves that are at their lowest point are the 'second group' (#2 E, #3 I, #4 E, #5 I, #6 IE). If I turn the crank 360 degrees, the 'first group' of valves look like they are set to be adjusted (lifters at their lowest points), but the marks on the cam gear and crank aren't lined up.

If I adjust the valves the way that Larry has suggested, I agree that they will be adjusted properly. When I put the distributor in though, if I put it in to fire on #1 when the marks are lined up, it will be firing when the valves for #1 aren't completely closed. Based on what the lifters are doing, I feel like I [i]should[i] be setting it to fire on #1 when the marks are across from each other (like in the pic above).

I sent you an email LGriffin.

Twisted6 told me that one time he had a machine shop install a cam gear on the cam 180 degrees out. I wonder if this happened to me.

Will you please 'listen up' here; the timing gears are on right. These are for valve timing only. T-6 probably meant 'backwards'.

The timing mark on your pully may be off, but that's another issue.

You need to find someone to assist you (in person) as NONE of us here can.

Good luck.

LGriffin,
Thanks for the phone call. I really appreciate it and you cleared some things up for. I'll let you know how it works out.

John M.,

I envy your knowledge and experience and that of the other Inliners. I realize it may be frustrating for some of you that I ask so many questions. I apologize for this. I am trying to learn as much as possible - someday I hope to have the knowledge that will allow me to confidently do a few of these things on my own without help. The only way that I will be able to do this is if I ask questions to help me understand how this engine works. If I just do what someone tells me and don't understand what I'm doing or why I'm doing it, it's not going to help me down the road.

On another forum, I was told to line up the timing marks, set the distributor to #1 and adjust the first group of valves. I pulled off the side covers for re-assurance. When I pulled them off, I did not see what I expected to see. I am trying to clarify why my understanding is flawed. Someone else on the same forum is telling me to pull the cam gear and rotate the crank 180 degrees before re-installing the cam.

I realize that it is difficult to help someone 'over the internet,' especially someone with my limited abilities and knowledge. But I honestly don't have much choice but to do it this way. I moved to California from NH - I don't know many people. Most of the people I know drive hondas and toyotas and bring their cars to a shop (which I can't afford to do). The 1 or 2 'car people' that I have met haven't worked on inlines and their typical response is that I should 'stop messing around with the boat anchor and put a 350 in it.'

Thanks for the help everyone.

Dear ??

Purchase a Motors Manual from e-bay & learn how valves-valve timing and engines (in general) work.

This manual will also have information on other vehicle functions and a good "first step" for you. A course at your local Jr. College would be next.

Some sites on the WWW are just extentions of Hobby Shops and don't have "real world" experience/professional training/knowlege etc.

For a novice; It's difficult to "sort through it" and know what to believe.

Hang in there & good luck.

once things slow down for me i'd like to take a class or two.

That's what I'm realizing. I haven't been at this for very long and I have received my share of bogus advice.

Talking to LGriffin on the phone helped out quite a bit I think - easier to talk things through than to type everything. Hopefully he straightened me out

Hey 63ChevyII.... I hear what you are sayin'. I don't know many people here, and when I do talk to someone about these sixes they usually shake their heads in disbelief....as in...."you mean it ain't a V8?".And like you, I also don't have big $$$ to put my truck in the shop every time it needs work. Keep hangin' in there.

Thanks border_line, I appreciate the encouragement.

Okay, since this thread is already posted for "292 running rough", I figure why start a new thread on the same subject?

I went down to have my truck registered today, got home and bolted on the license plate, and took the truck for a test drive. She's running rough, but made it around the neighborhood.I really need to get it running better in order to have the shop inspect it. It doesn't respond well above say, 1700 rpms...just kinda cuts out and loses power. I should note that this is first time out with the new 4bbl. Edelbrock...I did a search on carb tuning...I'm just afraid that once I get to turning mixture screws I'm gonna mess things up pretty bad.When I get time to look at it I will re-check the timing and go from there.

I bought a new harmonic balancer and a used distributor. From running it around the block a couple of times, I feel like the problems I was having earlier are taken care of, or they are at least reduced.

I am having some new problems though.

When I ordered the new balancer, I decided to buy a 2 grove balancer instead of the three groove balancer. We decided to go this route (after some discussion with members of this site) b/c I was going to have some radiator clearance issues with the 3 groove. This engine is going to be installed in a 63 Nova, with has considerably less engine bay space the the 70 c-10 that the engine is currently installed in.

After getting the balancer installed and in trying to install the fan belt and powersteering belt, I realized that 2 groove quite different than the 3 groove balancer, which has thrown off the geometry of the belts





I was able to 'shim' the fan pulley with a couple of large washers, but don't know what to do about the alternator. Shimming it with the washer is just meant to serve as a temporary solution until I can figure out how to fix it right. To me, it almost seems like I installed the balancer backwards, but is this even possible? Doesn't the back of the balancer have a 'snout' like thing on it that it is hidden by the timing cover when installed? Did I get the wrong balancer? Should I fab something to move the alternator forward?

The water pump also seems to be making noise when I was running it. Since the water pump on it wasn't replaced during th rebuild, I decided to buy a new one. I ordered on online from rock auto, painted it black and got ready to install it. When I was ready to pull the old one of, I saw that the pumps are different. After doing some searching online, I see that there are 2 different pumps for 292s. Can I use the one I bought, or do I need to eat the cost on this one (I figure I can't return it b/c I painted it) and order the other one? I ordered the one that was supposed to fit a 1970 c-10. The other one available fits 62-64 C-10s I believe.

Here are some more pics and a Monday morning bump...

63ChevyII, Hey I had the same issue with my install. The solution was to get a double groove pulley for the alternator. I went to local carquest and they had some in the back and even gave it to me free. A lot of times when customers get new alternators the pulleys are different and so they swap them out if need be. Never had an issue with the double pulley, it should definitly solve your belt allignment problem.

-Ted

Thanks for the input Ted. Should I pull the pulley off and bring it with me to the store? Was the pulley specific to a 292/L6?

Did you have to shim the fan pulley too?

Anyone have any thoughts regarding the waterpump?

I found this waterpump online and it looks similar to the one that is installed. It says that it is from a 75-77:


Here's another from a 68-74


and one from a 88-89:

ChevyII and border_line-

Now a word from our sponser-

There are around 40 members of Inliners in PA and around 350 in California. (about 1500 active in the world) This is a great source not only for car information but for friendships. I urge anyone who is not a member to join Inliners. You won't have people recommending that you install a 350, because they think just like you do. There is a membership form on the web page, and it is very cheap for the benefits.

Will6er
High Plains Chapter Head

-and now back to your program.

ChevyII, I use the 68-74 one, it came with the engine ('69 block). No, I didn't need to use any shims. My fan is really close to the radiator, so if I did, it would hit it. Yes, take your alternator to the store and they can match it up and maybe even install the new pulley for you. Its worth the try.

-Ted

I pulled the pulley off of the alternator last night.I have a couple of places to check and see if they have one in stock.

What is the part called that the thermostat sits in? I'm talking about the lower part (lower thermostat housing maybe?). In this pic of Ted65Mali's engine, you can see that there is a large hose going from this part to the water pump:


On my engine, this part is beat up and it uses a much smaller hose(see pics above). I was thinking of buying another one. If I get one that uses the same size hose as the water pump I bought does, I can keep the water pump. I can't return the water pump b/c I can't find the box it came in, which is part of the companies return policy.