Inliners International Forums General Discussion MOPAR 34 Plymouth Flathead Custom Project

Hi all! I’ve been checking out this page for the past couple of years. It’s been a great resource helping me shape some ideas on customizing my ‘34 Plymouth PE.

I picked up this ‘34 back in 1994 in Arizona from an old Hispanic miner whose dad bought the car new. The car had been sitting for years but was solid and ran. My dad took the body off the frame and painted everything, more to preserve the car than anything. So, twelve years later I’ve got the time and the resources to finish the car.

What I’m looking to do is build a mild custom keeping the original engine but adding some modern touches. My first priority is to get the drive train in order before I do any of the cosmetics. I’d like to build the original 201 engine like bluesky’s with the dual intake/exhaust. I'm thinking a using an Edgy head. I want to hook that up to a modern tranny using a something like the Wilcap adaptor. I'm not sure if this is all possible with the 201 though.

The front has the original IFS but needs completely rebuilt. I think Butch's Rod Shop has rebuild kits for these as well as disc brake conversions. It would also be nice to drop the car 4-6 inches. I wonder if I could adapt an Air Ride suspension to this?

I'll try to post pictures as I go along and I'll definitely be dropping more questions. This is going to be fun!

I'm not a MOPAR type but that sure is a cool
looking ride already.And yes, blueskies and Don Coatney I'm sure will help with advice.Good Luck with your '34!

Bondo-

What a great project! Looking forward to your progress. I'd be happy to answer questions about my engine, if you have any. Lots of info on my site about what I did too.

I saw this '33 at Bonneville Speed Week in August. The owner had just rolled in from the east coast. When he got out, there was a crowd around his car, they handed him a margherita, and he answered questions for hours. He was like a kid in a candy store. He mentioned his wife thought he'd lost his mind... LOL.

Pete

Hi, Bondo,

We have a '34 Plymouth sedan also, and are in process of getting it set up to be a reliable 'daily driver' car. Ours is the 'PE' version, it looks as tho yours is a 'PF' (bonnet side louvres are a recognition feature).

I've been somewhat interested in these cars ever since I had a '34 Dodge, back in the late '60's.....wish I'd been able to keep the Dodge...

There's a couple of 'hard facts of life' about trying to modify these cars, and I've seen a few of them become parts cars or scrap when the owners tried to 'change things around' a bit....

The '34 Dodge/Plymouth/Chrysler CA cars used the 'first generation' independent front suspension, which is actually a very good system, with much heavier, stronger components than the later independent front suspension systems.

The Dodge/Ply cars used this system only in '34, they went back to leaf springs in front for the '35-'38 cars, then to a lighter duty, cheaper independent system in '39.

Whilst I can't actually 'know', I strongly suspect that they did tnat, not cos there was anything 'wrong' with the '34 suspension, but as a cost-saving measure. The '34 suspension, with its high quality, heavy duty forgings, would have been quite expensive to build.

The 'catch' is that this system requires greasing fairly often, the various thead-bearing joints must never be allowed to run dry. When these cars were run by owners who neglected this detail, the suspension parts perished.

Its perfectly feasible to rebuild the '34 suspension, the parts are available with some looking, and there is a specialist firm who will rebuild the front shock damper assemblies.

Please don't even think of following the bad example of the fools who build up 'display cars' by cutting the frame and welding in the front suspension assy from this or that late model car.....there are some rather serious issues of steering-geometry and weight capability here, and you really don't want a car which isn't stable at freeway speeds.

There is nothing for it but to correctly rebuild the original front suspension and steering, but, when you do that, you will be well rewarded for your efforts, with a car which will ride and handle superlatively well compared to the Ford/Chevrolet cars of the '30's....the Dodge/Ply cars are much nicer on the road, a little secret amongst '34 owners....

The other side of that suspension issue is that its just not realistically possible to lower the front of the car.....unless you had the resources to make a modified version of the 'steering knuckle support' part, with the king-pin mount a couple of inches higher on the part. (analogous to using a '49-'54 Chevrolet steering knuckle support on a '41-'48 Chev to lower the earlier car....it works on those, but there is no similar situation for the '34 Dodge/Ply)

If you really have your heart set on a lowered car, there is nothing for it but to sell the '34 Ply and get a '34 Ford. I've no idea as to whether Marty Costello, of Oakland, CA, is still living, he is the one who made up the re-forged 'Mor-Drop' dropped axles for the Fords....he did quite a few of those, and it should be possible to find one with a bit of looking.

As for the engine/gearbox, its readily possible to make some worthwhile improvements to a '34 car. Keeping the '34 201 is not really the best idea, for a road car. The '33-'34 engines had a couple of design flaws, which were corrected in the '35 and later engine design.

A really nice engine/gearbox arrangement, which I've seen done on a few of the '34 cars, is to make up a modified cross-member to use a '35-'38 bell-housing (the '34 cross-member is cut a few inches in from the frame rails, and the centre section of the later cross-member welded in.....my '34 Dodge had been done up that way, and fitted with a '53 engine)

If you are able/willing to do the precision cutting/forming/welding involved, and make up he clutch linkage parts needed, the cross-member mod is the best way to go. I particularly remember one fellow who had built up his '34 Dodge coupe that way, with a '59 Dodge 6 engine, and the overdrive gearbox from a '37-'39 Chry/DeSoto. The '57-'59 Dodge 230 passenger sixes were rated at approx double the hp of the '34 201, from the works, which is a far better starting-point for a nice road engine.

Another way to fit a '35-later engine is to keep the '34 bell-housing, and modify the starter housing a bit.

Its possible to modify the '34 cross-member slightly, by cutting away the gear lever mount and re-enforcing the cross-member forward of the cut area, to allow fitment of a '35 or later gearbox, again, ideally a '37-'39 overdrive box. (the '39 box for column-shift can be converted to floor shift by simply replacing the column-shift top cover/shift forks assy with a '37-'38 top cover/shift lever assy.)

Please don't consider cutting up your '34 to try some of the 'hot-rodders' kluge-ups that seem to be a fad these days......I've seen 'kluge-up' cars come up for sale very cheaply when the owners found out the hard way that such things don't actually work very well.

If you'd like, have a look at our '34 on our web-site www.tactical-link.com Go to 'Tricia's pages', then to 'our project car'. Now that Tricia has taken her retirement from her job, one of the many projects we have in mind is to set up a '34 Dodge/Plymouth page on the internet, a resource for parts connections/restoration advice/sharing of stories, etc., for '34 owners.

cheers

Carla

A little more......

Bondo, the original '34 Ply engine, along with the '33 Dodge/Ply engines, has a different head configuration, in which the bolt pattern is narrower than the '34 Dodge and '35-'59 Dodge/Ply heads.

The '33-'34 Plymouth engine head was one of the design flaws they corrected for '35/later. Apparently, the core system for the head castings allowed the cores to 'float' a bit, resulting in a really thin section of the upper surface of the head....and the '34 heads are often found to be cracked across the very top.

The 'Edgy' or other (Edmunds, Edelbrock, and one other whose name I've forgotten) aluminium heads made for the '35/later Dodge/Ply sixes cannot be modified to fit the '34 201.

The factory offered an optional 'red head' aluminium head for '33-'34 201 engines, which was slightly higher compression. If you really must keep your 201, try to find one of those heads.

cheers

Carla

Thanks for the encouragement and the detailed insight. It makes me feel a bit better to know that there are some good technical resources here so I don't go down the wrong road.

The car is actually a PE, the picture makes it hard to see the two side vents. The engine and frame are matching PEII3534B, the body is 6582, and the serial is 2290029 (Detroit). And no worries, I have no intentions of cutting anything on the body or frame. I think the car has more soul keeping it somewhat original. There have been some modification to it; someone cut up the dash a bit in the past and the fender well spare carriers were cut and filled.

Thanks for the advice on the front suspension. I plan on keeping it and will keep an eye on the lubrication when it is done.

Thanks also for the details on engine and tranny options. Part of me wants to keep the 201 since the numbers match and it runs well. However, I do see the benefit in fitting a later model flathead. If I kept the 201 I would've wanted to go with the Edgy head but it looks like that won't work. I can't imagine those 'Red Heads' being easy to find.

I have no history for the engine, how many miles it might have, or if it has ever been rebuilt or bored out. Today I spent a little time doing a compression test to get a better idea what I've got to build on. I warmed the engine at idle for about 10 minutes before removing the plugs and opening the throttle. I got three readings from each cylinder after cranking the engine over for about 3-4 seconds. I repeated the 1st cylinder after I finished the 6th.

1: 92,99,102
2: 104, 105, 105
3: 110, 112, 110
4: 110, 111, 112
5: 110, 110, 110
6: 105, 103, 104
1 (2nd time): 103, 111, 112

Not sure why the #1 was lower the first go around. I was expecting about 90psi but I am consistently about 110 +/-5. I expect the values are a bit higher because of carbon build up. All the plugs were dry and had a little carbon build up. I think the carb is burning a bit rich. I feel pretty good about the results though.

Want some inspiration?



Absolutely stock... owner is Willie Cadorin of Coleambally in New South Wales.

That '34 roadster is pretty nice. I imagine those Aussie roadsters are pretty rare too.



This is the car on my laptop background and a model for what I'd like to go after. The 'modern touches' I was thinking about previously just aren't practical and don't seem drivable. Besides, the wife would rather see it this way and I really need to keep her on the positive side of the whole project.

I've finished dismantling the drivers side on the front suspension. The upper outer pin was heavily worn and allowed considerable play. I've got replacement pins all the way around. I have no idea how much to torque these things down though. Does anyone have torque specifications for the front suspension? My maintenance manual doesn't go into the details.

Hi, Bondo,

I don't think there was a torque spec provided for any of the suspension parts in the '34 manual, as they didn't even provide torque specs for some of the engine fasteners which all had torque specs given in the later manuals.

There are torque charts available for the different grades of standard capscrews, published by the manufacturers, which can be found on the internet with some looking. It should be reasonable to extrapolate from those charts according to thread diameter and number of threads per inch.

If you'd like the best possible source of information, tho, go to 'www.practicalmachinist.com', the machinists' internet board, and put in the query there, giving the thread sizes and the nature of the parts, which should offer a good idea as to the probable grade of steel, and heat-treat used in those parts.

Personally......and this is a purely personal opinion, to be sure......I think you and your wife would be much happier with the car, in the long run, if you keep it basically original, and concentrate on those relatively subtle up-grades which can be done without cutting/welding anything.

Restoring the suspension and braking systems will be quite a job, but at least its straight-forward and 'do-able' if you are willing to take the time to be a 'perfectionist' about all the little details involved. Yes, that will be a lot of hard work, but, once done, you will be very pleased with the 'feel' of the car on the road.

There are a number of '34 cars around which are in service as 'everyday road cars' and are far superior in that context to the generality of new small cars.

They don't get the fuel milage of the new cracker-box cars, nor are they quite as luxurious as a new Mercedes class car, but they are good practical, comfortable cars. (that said, remember its a Plymouth, and not a Packard)

The major advantage in taking the time to do a proper correct rebuild of the various systems on one of these cars is that, unlike the newer cars, once correctly done up, and given reasonable maintenence, that '34 will still be running reliably long after the new cars have become unrepairably dysfunctional.

The primary difference is that the new cars are designed for a short life-span, whereas your '34 is literally 'timeless' if properly maintained.

Fitting a '55-'59 Dodge 6 engine, preferably one which has built up to the traditional 'medium road engine' spec, and getting rid of the 'death trap' free-wheeling gearbox in favour of a standard '34 box, will give you a really nice everyday use car with a relative minimum of cost/time/effort.

Again as a purely personal opinion, I'd think it would be best for you ask your wife what she would like about the '34, in terms of making it a comfortable car for her. For example, I had to take out the front seat assembly, and make up 1" thick hardwood spacer blocks to raise the seat that little bit to make the driving position more comfortable for me. It may take a bit of experimentation to find a seat height which is reasonably comfortable for both of you.

She may have strong feelings about having really nice new upholstery and nice carpetting in the car. The somewhat 'mildewy' smell of old mohair upholstery will bother some women badly.....it does for me, anyway, and I have been negotiating with a local automotive upholsterer to have our '34 completely re-done inside.

You could, if you wish, tell your wife, for me, that she will be really pleased with the way the '34 feels and handles, once everything about it is done up correctly.

Explain to her about 'floating' the gear changes once the car is moving, so she needn't use the clutch except to start from rest. (someone accustomed to new-ish small cars will tend to over-speed the older engines in the gears.....explain about relative torque at lower engine speeds, and the relative ease/comfort of shifting at lower road speeds, allowing the engine's torque to pull you up to your chosen road speed smoothly.....as compared to the fast buzzing engines of newer small cars, which don't develop much torque until they are howling up near their red line)

You do have all my sympathy for the tedious hard work you'll need to do to get the '34's suspension, steering, and brakes into truly optimal.....as new.....condition.

Just remember that you're undoing 70-ish years of neglect, and the hard work in taking the time to be exactly 'right' in every little detail will be repaid many times over when your wife and your friends say 'why, this is like a new car, only better'.

cheers

Carla