Inliners International Forums General Discussion MOPAR 217 Questions (Newbie)

Hello all. Newbie here, I have been a Mopar guy my whole life (39 Years old) I learned how to drive in my dads 53 Dodge sedan (Red Ram), and how to drive stick in my dads 48 Plymouth Business Coupe. I just bought a 53 Plymouth Suburban for my dad's birthday. We are adding this to our stable of Mopars, a 1950 New Yorker Highlander Coupe (With a 440/518OD/Dana44 drivetrain and a stock exterior) my 52 Willys Wagon (With a hopped up F-head) a 1987 Shelby GLHS, 2005 Neon SRT-4, 99 Ram V10, 98 Wrangler Rock Crawler (Jeeps and Willys are Mopars now right?)

Anyuway on to the questions. We are thinking of hopping up the Ol 217, with a crank and rods from a 230, and I have seen some nice tube headers for the small block 6, who makes them? Does Offy still make the dual intake? How much power can we expect from a "Built" 230? (Aluminum Head, dual Webers, cam, headers, H.E.I.) Thinking about the T5 also, along with Fatman Spindles and disk brakes and a Jeep Grand Cherokee (ZJ) Rear axle (60" wide Aluminum center D44 with disc brakes, internal parking brakes, a 3.73 R&P, limited slip, and a 4 1/2" bolt pattern for 75.00 at the local Pick and pull yard) With the T-5 will the 3.73 gears work well with the 230?

Langdon's Stovebolt Engine Company has a beautiful set of cast headers for your engine. i think he also has tube headers...better check with Tom Langdon @ 586-739-9601.

there's info in tech tips about installing a T-5 on your MOPAR, too. contact Don Coatney...he's a wizard with these engines.

Here's an article about mounting T-5s to MOPAR 6s:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74221&highlight=coatney+t-5

I'm a newbie also and found some interesting info here. http://www.50plymouth.com/02-hom/home.html Not necesarily the things I want to do but plenty of ideas. The reference to George is probably a good one there are some pictures out there of the work he does. Google him.

Dear Murf;

Chysler made an industrial engine for forklifts, generators etc. It was about 250 CID and used the same or similar manifolds as passenger car engines.

I would look for one of those first.

Good luck.

The big block flathead 6 engines from Crashlers, Desotos, and industrical, agriculture applications are two inches longer than the engine in your Plymouth. A few modifications will be required to install one in your burb. But is is doable. I instsalled a Desoto 251 CI engine in my 48 Plymouth P-15. I have dual carbs, dual exhaust, dual points in the distributor, a 270 degree duration camshaft, coupled to a T-5 transmission, and pushing a 3.55/1 Dodge Charger differential. I have taken my car on several extended road trips and it has never let me down. I can run 70 MPH in 5th gear with the engine turnig 2000 RPM's. Pulls the hills well as the engine has lots of torque. For pictures of how I did this visit my Photobucket album.


http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v65/DonCoatney/

Make sure you view all of the sub albums. Any questions ask away.
Don Coatney

I am picking up a IND 30 230 Cu In Flat head for parts, it came from a Yale forklift. It is a small block 6 with Sodium filled exh valves, Double roller chain, was originally set up for LP Fuel, We want to use the crank out of it in our 217 block.

Murfman-

I used a NOS 230 crank, rods, and flywheel in my '50 218.

The 230 has an 8 bolt flange, that is thicker than the 4 bolt 218 crank. The 230 flywheel has a recess machined into it's face, to accomodate the difference in thickness on the crank flange. If you use the 218 flywheel, which will bolt up, the face of the flywheel will be about 3/16" farther back toward the rear of the car, and the starter will not reach the ring gear.

I used the Langdon tube headers, had them coated with HPC ceramic coating. For the money, I would get the Langdon cast headers, which are almost the same price and a better all round setup, if I were to do it again. The problem with the tube headers, is that the have to be removed to get the valve tappet covers off for valve adjustment. the tubes are directly in line with the tappet cover bolts, and very close to them as well. There is no way to get the bolts out with the headers installed.

I also bought my HEI and carbs from Langdon. Great service and immense knowledge base, I'd buy from him again any time.

Offy still makes the dual intake, in two versions. One with the stock heat riser and one without. I have a vintage Edmunds intake with water heat, and love it. It warms instantly with the coolant. The chokes are disabled on my carbs, and it will start and run smooth even in zero degree weather. It is warmed up and ready to go by the time I've backed out of my garage. Functioning manifold heat prevents icing as well as keeping the air/fuel mixture from condensing on the cold surface of the intake.

The Asche dual intake probably flows better than the new Offy, but has a home-brewed look. I've heard that the Offy intake had the poorest flow of the aftermarket intakes, but maybe that was hearsay...

Check out my engine at http://www.50plymouth.com for lots of pics, sound clips, etc.

Pete

Changing the whole engine is quicker, easyer and less money, than trying to 'custom build' one of that age.

Check with Don, he did it.

Pete's car is probably one of the best ones built over the years, that I have seen. He had the resources of many to help and a 'Pro Shop' to work in etc.

Good luck.

John;
I did swap engines because I wanted a big block flat 6. But I also built my engine from scratch. When I bought my engine it was completely disassembled (literely in a basket). I sent my cam to Eggy in California for a new profile, had the crank turned and installed new rod and main bearings, new valves, new timing chain and gear, bought a George Asche manifold and carburetors, converted my distributor to dual points, and modified my bell housing to accept the T-5 transmission. I did not do a good job of tracking costs as the total would have scared me and scared my wife even more.

Dear Don;

Well; sometimes you just have to put financial considerations aside.

The photos show it was probably well placed (the money) too.

I like the fuel pump with the built in filter/water trap and the heat shield.
Be sure to use a 'flex line' going to the line comming from the tank.
I would clean the paint off the heat shield too;
as it will just burn off & smoke things up when you first get started.

You WILL keep us posted on the results, right??

John;
I ended up not installing the heat shield as I found I do not need it. I built a live test stand and ran my engine about ten hours before installing it in the car. I have now put around 8000 miles on my car. Longest trip was 1250 miles in 3 days. I just returned from two weeks on the road and used my car as my daily driver. It neverlet me down and ran great the entire trip.

D;

Those were put there (by factory) as "vapor loc" was a problem in that era;
when traveling throught the mid west and desert areas during summer months etc.

Next time you have driven for a while;
stop & feel the line going to the carbs from the pump. If It's really hot think of insulation.

Wooden 'clothes pins' work in a pinch, but look like s#$%....


Good luck.

John;
I have argued the vapor lock issue with many. Most folks who believe they have a vapor lock problem do not but instead have another problem incorrectly diagnosed as vapor lock. I have my fuel line from the pump to the carburetors routed well away from the exhaust manifold. It is located in an area where the air flow from my radiator electric pusher fan supplies it with ample air flow to prevent the fuel in the line from boiling. I have driven my car in 95+ degree ambient temperatures with no vapor lock issues. In my opinion the clothes pin trick only makes the owner/driver feel better.

Maybe your talking about a different Pete?!? If not, sorry to burst the bubble, but I have done all of my car resto by myself in my unheated two car garage over a period of six years with a basic set of craftsman tools that I've got as a christmas present from my parents when I was in high school. The only aspects of the project that I have not done completely by myself at home were the machine work on the block which included the installation of the cam and valves, and the body and paint work. I delivered the car stripped to the bare body on frame to the painter, and then re-assembled it back in my garage. I wish I'd had help and a pro-shop to work in!

Oh, and thanks for the complements, glad you like the car!

Pete

Don;

You have less heat too, because of the forward exhaust header/pipe and I wasn't awware of the 'pusher fan' (good idea) etc.

In the desert areas (summer 105+) the 'clothes pins' were used as "insurance" along with a 'water bag' which hung from the hood ornament allowing water to drip/seep out & blow into/through the radiator. This was a 'hold over' from the 1940s I think.

This will get some good jokes if done @ a car show sometime (just for fun).

Pete;

I recall seeing this car on a twin post hoist, showing the exhaust system sometime back and this is why I thought it was a 'shop project'.

I guess you and Craftsman get ALL the credit after all.

John;
Pictured is my water bag. I use it for shows as it does not do much for added cooling. I bought this bag at Bonneville in 1969 when I raced my BSA 3 cylinder motorcycle there. Met Burt Monro in person when I was there.
Don Coatney

John-

Your right, I forgot to mention in my list of things I didn't do myself, the exhaust was done by a local shop. That's when the car was on the lift, I stopped by and took pics while they had it up in the air. The rest was done without the aid of a lift, unfortunately...

Pete

Umm... a 230 out of a forklift?

If that's a 23" block, which it should be as a 230, I'd snag that and use it. Don't take the crank out, use the whole engine.

For one, to run on LPG it would probably have had hard valve seats installed. Cool... will live with unleaded fuel. Also it's all matched up, crank and block, ready to go. Go through the regular rebuild routine with it and you're away.

I bought a little 1950 fastback Plymouth in Nebraska from I think Clyde Mckinney years ago, He had taken the little Plymouth on a trip from Nebraska to Disneyland as I recall and wrote a story for the "Plymouth Bulletin" He had virtually no trouble on the trip. When I picked up the car in Nebraska I spent the night in a local motel and awoke the next morning checked the car out found that the Carburetor was very loose on the joint where the aluminum upper casting joined the cast iron base and I tightend it up. Told my little Brother to follow me home to Texas. It was early morning the sun was just coming up I leveled of at an indicated 65 mph a it sure ran sweet. About 5 or 6 miles down that long straight road little brother started flashing his lights to signal me and I thought that something had fallen off or it was on fire or smoking or???. When I slowed down he pulled up beside me and Informed me that we were cruising over 80 mph and I had better slow it down. I told him to get in front and take us home at 70 mph. We went home that long way and the little Plymouth hummed!
Don't know why but I just got to tell you these little cars are way under rated.

Did it have overdrive?

Any idea why the speedo was so far out?

Ray,
Did not have Overdrive and still doesn't. I still have it and haven't driven it in some time! The previous owner had installed a 1952 engine which should have still been 217,don't know if he had swapped rear end or what?
I have been wanting to get it out and install the set of original Fentons that I picked up for it! These little engines or sweeter sounding than other six inlines, possibly due to the six seperate exhaust ports?