Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance Dyno day for a 292, Need help

CNC-Dude and all, I'm sure your getting it together. On the chart comparison, I was mainly interested in the torque curves, as that the 6 cylinders strong point.

No more questions, I'll be patient and wait for the results. You gentlemen have a "full plate"

LG

LG, yours and everyones insight is very needful. It can be easy to overlook the obvious, and a broad scope of viewpoints is very helpful to make sure it doesn't just focus on our perspective as we see them. So, keep it up, and feel free to throw suggestions our way.

You have your hands full and I would really like to help, unfortunately my body man working on my 50 hosed me very badly and evrything this year has been pretty much put on hold and I will leave it at that. If I was in the neighborhood I would certainly help.

Being I have been on a Dyno several times, just doing a pull and tweeking can eat time, limiting and optimizing everything as much as possible including what you are going to be testing this setup in, having a full fendered rig will take more time than if the engine area is full exposed, no fenders, no hood certainly no grill. Taking into consideration of what the main specs are of the engine compression wise will dictate what cams are going to work best and this should be the primary focus. My aspect here is looking at a Stock valve vs 1.84/1.6 valve vs same valve 3 port lump & a 6port lump (that I havent heard much about) and all must be the same chamber size or very close other wise this will scew the numbers, this would be interesting to see what gains there are here as most HP comes right from the heads. At the same time picking the best possibly cam to run that would benefit from the compression you will be running. Choosing a closed vs open chamber head will obviously create more power and tourque being you are increasing compression so this would in my opinion would not be worth while unless you are trying to see what the benefits of a particular cam might see with the added compression. Genreal rule of thumb here that I was told for every point of compression increas you multiple 4 by the number of cylinders and this will give a rough estimate of hp gained. Intake choices is another matter, as the Clifford under my understanding has a better top end vs some of the competitotrs, it would also be interesting to see what benefits there are from a multi-carb setup or even a side draft setup would be, although a lot of aftermarket multi-carb setups are for 1 barrels I dont feel these type of intakes are anything to write home about & certainly a 4 barrel would no doubt be better, although even a single 500cfm 2 barrel would probally out perform the 3 singles, I could be wrong. Anyways hope some of these ideas help..OH and what about the use of a copper headgasket vs stock, most of these are reuseable, it may save a few bucks.

I believe I had done searches in the past for any related dynos but found nothing, this would be nice if some others that have dynoed could post there info.

Tom and CNC-Dude:

We are fortunate to have a really bright and tallented group of people on this forum and as members of Inliners - many of these guys have probably forgotten more than I'll ever know. Looks like many of them will be involved in this project in one way or another so I have absolutely no doubt that we all will get some really good information out of the various dyno pulls. Of course you guys have things well in hand and have obviously done a lot of hard thinking and detailed behind-the-sceens work already relating to the various test combinations. Like most of the others, I'm really looking forward to seeing what you finally choose to test (and why), and what results are achieved.

The baseline pulls will be with an established stock type non-lump head. Then a head change with the same type head(same chamber cc's and valve sizes) with lumps installed will be tested next. This will be a more apples to apples comparison, and show the true gains that are available from taking a stock head and what increases are there when you put in lumps, with everything else remaining the same. Then the cam changes and more aggressive head combos will be done afterward. Having an engine dyno as opposed to a chassis dyno will greatly help speed up parts changing hopefully.

Here are some more specs for the number crunchers.

The lower end is built very well. Here is some of the breakdown.
Main studs
Balanced rotating assy
Venolia forged pistons 27CC dish, Zero decked, bore is 3.935
ARP rod bolts
ARP head studs
Fluidamper balancer
Bore plate used for machining
Head gaskets to be used are .041 thick

Final compression with a 70CC head will be 8.8 to 1.

Just a comment,
when switching to a more agressive camshaft I would think you will see a bigger gain also by using a small chamber head,,,,but I do realize that would not be comparing apples to apples.


MBHD

Tom,
I will send my contribution when I get back home, thanks for the suggested minimum it will likely be that due to my budget.
However if you can add some info I will try to contribute in another way, with some computer predictions of what the dyno will show. This is not DesktopDyno or EngineAnalyzer, it is my own homebuilt program fondly named the "WerbyFord Gonkulator" over on the Ford FE Forum, but it does pretty well in predicting dyno tests before they are run - you can see some example predictions on the "Ford FE" forum at

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thr...+my+computer%21



or go on that forum and google "exhaust comparo" or "intake comparo". Intake predictions can have some real surprises but I like to predict in advance, that is part of the fun but helps the learning too. Also it might help offer some ideas for your tests!

A couple questions:
1. Do you know the compression ratio[s] planned? (ok, 8.8cr]
2. Do you know the header dimensions (pri tube diam and lengths, same for collector[s])
3. Do you know the head flow data? If not I can guess from Leo S' book and other info on this forum -

Looking forward to this rare set of dyno tests, it will help me build the 250 and 292 for my own Novas!

Hi Guys,

$25 on its way by PayPal. I'm really excited about the info, sorry I couldn't contribute more.

Dave

Tom.....sent you $50 today via paypal (I hope?), thanks for your past advice, block and crank are now in the machine shop and after that I'll probably have another question or two.......Joe

Chevy2inreno and Joe,
Both came thru fine, Thankyou.
Joe, sorry to hear the motor was not in better shape, just glad you caught it now, later would be much worse.

Duececoupe,
Here is a flow from one of my heads:
.100 61.7cfm
.200 115.6 cfm
.300 171.5 cfm
.400 207.9 cfm
.500 229.1 cfm
.600 242.7 cfm

Headers are 1 5/8 tubing with 37" primary's, 8" long collectors that are 2.5" diameter. Let me know what you find.

I am really busy now getting things/parts all arranged.
Tom

I am interested. Will pay a share. Tom

Tom,

I too am interested in your dyno data and have sent you money via PayPal. I am sure I am one of few who have dynoed a Pontiac OHC 6 and would like to compare info.

Thanks,

Rob

Guy's, thanks for contributing. Sometimes I can't put the paypal or name together with a Inliner Name. So sorry if i do not mention everyone. I am keeping all the emails to send to though. So do not worry.

It will be interesting to see how the 292 will stackup against the Pontiac OHC 6. Hopefully atleast more torq!

Still looking for more thoughts and ideas. Never to many.

A few replies back.
It is really nice to see all the guy's posting for the first time! Wish there was more of that. Please do not be shy!

I believe RussK had asked about a 3 port and a 6 port. I run port dividers on my own engine because of the Multiport EFI and turbo. On this test, the engine will be carbed and naturally aspirated. The divider would probably kill air flow for higher RPM's.

The 2 carbs to be used are both Holley's, one a 390 cfm and the other a 600cfm. Both are vacum secondaries. Tom

Tom:

The 3 vs 6 port question is a good one (and I suspect you're right that a port divider would cause flow restrictions in a N/A engine. However, I can't take credit for asking it.

Regards, Russ

I was just rereading the 1.94 valve discussion. The bit about P.E.S. lumps vs others would be something I'd like to see tested. We could settle something that lingers. I know it would mean another head as well as another intake. We'll probably have to wait till next time for this one. I'd send more $$$.

I'd like to see how a 500 CFM (stock GM SBC 305 TBI)would work.

efi/diy: If they can support that I'm installing that exact TBI onto my 250 build. I'll need help with that one and you are the most experienced with electronics. I'll get the software and hardware from Moates and do the tuning on the fly.

Randy S. Hager
Venus, TX

Hey Beater, I think we could call that one "mythbusters"....hehe!

We certainly will be trying to do some mythbusting that day. It will be interesting. Tom

I hope myths are all you bust! efi-diy's idea is a good one. We made the 270 run on a GM TBI. Some day my 292 will run on one. I have a 292 Offenhauser 4 BB manifold adapted for the GM TBI. I have the TBI and a stock GM harness and stock ECM. Maybe someone in Calgary has a Megasquirt and program.

Tom are we getting close to covering the costs? If this works out well maybe you could consider the same process for the 216,235 family or???

Jalopy45,
The donations so far are enough to cover the cost of the dyno, with alittle left over to help buy some needed parts/supplies. Still hitting up some of the performance parts places for:
Gaskets, timing gears and nice bolts.

Has anyone had luck rerunning a head gasket after swapping heads for another dyno pull?

How important is it to you guy's for a stock baseline dyno run? Stock cam/ head, but with 4 bbl and headers? Was contemplating skipping that part and go right into torq cam. Tom

I don't know how imoportant it is to us, but if publishing in a magazine, you might want it just for a starting point, since that's where alot of people stop with modificatiosn to an L6 engine. Kind of show how much they're missing out on? I dunno.

Just my 2 cents.

-Sam.

I think Sam is right, anybody (almost) can bolt on a manifold, and headers. Too much cam and too little cam is also a thought.

LG

You guy's are correct. Start with a stock head and cam, headers and offy intake and 390 carb. Then we will start toward torq cams and heads, ending with big cams, bigger valves, Cifford intake and a 600 carb.

The date is picked. Nov 7 and 8th. Will get the motor on the dyno, running and ready before those dates. Got lots of stuff to get done. Tom

Every combo you test is going to answer questions for someone. I'm really interested in valve size and lump no lump heads. Also where the power comes with the different cams. This is going to be great!! Beater

[quote=tlowe #1716]You guy's are correct. Start with a stock head and cam, headers and offy intake and 390 carb. Then we will start toward torq cams and heads, ending with big cams, bigger valves, Cifford intake and a 600 carb. (/quote]

Being time is limited to one day and things don't always go the way we would like I would think this would be the best place to start with as this is the usual way things are done by the average person. and then add the tourque cam as this is usually the second biggest item and then go for head upgrades, swapping cams takes time although nice to see differences given people will be able to know that if there is a given 10% for each head change then that would more than likly be what the differences are for the different cams, the last would be the clifford intake since its almost a given you are going to loose some bottom end and the only real advatage of this intake would be more for midrange to topend performance.

Tom, Do you think there's enough $$$$ here to buy you another Day? I'll send more. It would be a shame to get everything in one spot and not be able to finish. Just a thought. Beater

Beside $$$$ another set of experienced hands would most likely help.

If another day is needed I will also send more. It would be a shame to only get part way through the the desired range of parts.

Beater and Jalopy,
Did you guy's get the my email I sent out? Just want to make sure Communication is going ok.

My dyno shop and I have came to a agreement realising that it most certainly will take 2 days of runs. 50.00 per hour for shop time, this includes tools , dyno and one of the shops guy's. Some of my local Inliners are also coming to help wrench. The dyno area is small and can really only hold about 4 guy's doing things. There will be a few others there to help wrench, like my bro , who always makes fun of me messing with these inlines.

As of today 680.00 has been collected by you guy's generous contibutions. There are 17 contributors. I did go into this fully expecting to spend my own money for parts and dyno time. The outpouring of support with parts, money and help has really got me fired up. In fact now it is sometimes hard to sleep w/o thinking about it. Talk at you all later. Tom

Tom, I just checked my email and I did get your message. Thanks. I hope more venders step up. It's in their interest to show us they want us to use their stuff. Our excitement is all riding on you, no pressure though! Beater

Okay will send you another $50. email may have got caught in junk mail filter

= Found it and put it in my safe mail ,do you want an Edelbrock 600 to test?? I got one as Tom Langdon recommended it for the street over the Holley? If so will UPS it to you with a return mailer.

Jalopy,
I actually own a edel 500 and a 600. Used to run one on my 292 before turboing it.

The Holley's are much easier to tune for the dyno, as all parts are in stock at the shop and the experience is with them also.

Did everyone that has donated get a email from me? Hate to leave anyone out. Tom

Tom,

I should be sending out a money order within the next week or so. My pay periods are once a month, and slim, but I'll send as much as I can to help the effort along.

-Sam.

Sam,
Be sure to get me your email. I will send updates out. Dui (performance distributors) confirmed and is sending a complete HEI kit and wires. I have always liked their stuff.

Got a motor mount plate from Stuart Nichols in the classifieds. Nice part used to mount the 292 in the same mounts as a 250. I use pickup motor mounts and the 292 will bolt in anywhere a V8 will go.

Tom

I'm new here but very interested in results, I sent you some $$$ (mattmiller54) I have a 37 Chevy that will be getting a 250 or 292 and a 68 C20 Longhorn that already has a built 292.