Inliners International Forums General Discussion Blown and Injected turbo 292 write up

Tom,
So, how long does it take to get full boost?

Sounds OK about the tires,,,,but,,, if they are just a standard radial tire,it probably will not help too much.
Just need to get a set of sticky M/T drag radials for the track.
Good luck though!!!

MBHD

went out again last night. it was a test/tune evening. it is doing better. all runs were in the 92 mph range @ 1/4 mile and time was ussually 15.3 sec. considering last times best of 15.9, i am going the right way. it is still having a problem of losing some fuel pressure on the big end of 3rd gear. got to get that resolved.
my fuel line is 3/8. the pump is also more than sufficient. i think maybe one of my fuel filters prior to the pump may be a restriction.
my 60 ft's were the same as last time 2.3 sec. i am going to have to bolt some weight in the back to get traction.
looking at the data logs. my boost is peaking around 11.6 psi. i am also going to work on getting the boost higher sooner.
tom

Good to hear you ran it again!!
If you are in good tune, the turbo will spool faster.
Next is the torque converter, since you said the boost control is/was sota bad,because of too small a turbine housing.

I have said before,to RevOD,you need about 2400 min.,2600 would be better,RPM stall converter,even with a stock cam(& yours is not stock) but nobody seems to want to listen to my advice,which is fine,but don't try & fool yourself into believing you can get around this boost coming in too slowly,because it will remain the same,unless you install a higher stall torque converter or squirt some nitrous during your launch.
Remember,even (IF) you install a higher stall torque converter,you still have OD & it will still lock up in 2nd,3rd,& OD if you wire it that way, so your mileage will not suffer on the city or open highway.
Instead of adding extra weight to the bed, try some sticky drag radials!!
Sounds like I am getting frustraighted,,, but I'm not really.
Two cents thrown :-)

MBHD

Tom,

I have a 2400 stall converter in my malibu that has a 700r4 and I wired the trans to lock up in 2,3,&4th. So even around town milage is not impacted.

A set of sticky tires will do wonders along with an air bag in the RH coil spring - try 35 psi to start.

Try squirting in some blue windsheild washer fluid using a Hobbs pressure switch to turn on the pump say when you get to 3-4 psi and add another 3-4 deg. of timing. With 12 psi you should be 4-5 mph faster.

thanks for the tips on suspension and torque convertors. i'll for now just keep working to make the motor make more power.
been working on the elco again.
changed the restrictive fuel filter, found out it has a real small 3/16 inlet hole. wow, never expected a filter supplied with the pump to be that restrictive.
i also changed the wastegate spring from a 3-5 lb to a 6-9 spring. boost should come up faster now.
got the biggest tire i can fit in the wheel well now. 255/60/15. should help some with traction. they are also 1" taller.
i have added more timing, it seems the more i add the better it runs. also adding a knock sensor to tie into my fuel/timing computer. it can pull out a set amount of timing when knock is sensed. it was also a cheap addon .
going once more to a track on sunday, hope to keep improving.

Tom,

Try running about 18-20 psi in the rear tires and 32-35 in the front at the track and make sure you drive around the water box. With street tires the water gets sucked up into the siptes and then runs out at the starting line... just do 1 good dry hop to clean any crud off the tires and then stage. Not sure if your holley box has an external input to retard the timing - its another way to build boost on the line, it puts heat into the exhaust manifold.

Marc

efi
you are sure right about retarding the timing holds/ builds heat in the manifold. i found out if the timing was to low at higher rpm and load the boost goes thru the roof. that was the main reason i was having boost creep. i added more timing and the boost went down and the motor makes more power, more fun too. tom

Tom,
how much timing are you running now?
And, how little were you running before?

The only problem with setting say 4,6,8,etc,,, degrees of timing pulled from your knock sensor,it retards all the cylinders ,therefore really killing your power,,,,but it's better to be safe!!
Goodluck @ the next rack visit!!!

I'll just say it again,try some methanol injection,,,,you will be really surprized how much total timing you can go with!!!
From what info I have gathered this Alky inj ,works good & has great product support.
Julio is the owner I believe?
http://www.alkycontrol.com/?ref=turbobuick

MBHD

hank, i was running 21 degrees @max rpm/boost. now i am up to 25 degrees @ same. just slowly moving the timing up. so far there is no pinging, but i would like to keep it that way. no need to change head gaskets as much.
that looks like a nice system. tom

well i'm back from another fun day at the track.
impoved abit from my last outing.

here is the lodown. my best run was 14.418 sec @96.06 mph in the 1/4 mile. that is a improvement from my last outing. on aug 31 my time was 15.3 @ 92 mph

i did impress myself. i ran 5 times today. logging every run. 1 st run against another elcamino (black). it sounded good with the bumbling sounding V8. i took it by 1/2 sec. my 3rd run was against a new 2007 Z07 corvette. i thought to myself, he is going to kill me! when we took it was even for a short while and then something happened that just shocked me. i took him. he got farther away behind until mid track and the he started to storm. i took him by 1.25 sec. what fun.
my engine is still falling down when in 3rd gear at about 4200 rpm. the fuel pressure goes wacky. its weird. the fuel pressure climbs steady with boost to about 50 lbs and 4200 rpm, at which time the pressure starts changing quickly between 47-50. i wonder if the injectors are at the end of their duty cycle? the injector pulse width it happens at is 22.8ms. they are 42 lb ford / bosch injectors. i have my best run on youtube now also. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz2UaM3i-gQ . tom

That's good you improved!
What are you 60 fts?
How much boost are you getting now?
Did the stiffer wastegate spring help?
Did your larger tires help w/traction?

It looks like(on the video) you are not spinning the tires & you are not getting boost very fast?

Not sure why your FP is dropping,bad regulator?
Your FP should not drop ,even if you are 100% duty cycle on your injectors.

What micron filters are you running before & after your fuel pump? Are you running an external pump?
How about your fuel pick up in your gas tank? Original sock still there?
Pick up still in stock location?
Do you have a full tank of gas, 1/2, 1/4 ???

I thought you have bigger injectors ready to install?

If you do,, you have to retune all over again.

MBHD

hank
it was a bunch of fun
my 60's did slightly improve from a 2.3-.4 to a 2.2 whippey.
boost still goes no higher but it builds much quicker, 12 psi max. the 6-9 lb spring helps get the boost quicker, it can definately be felt in my rear also.
the bigger tires help in a few ways. somewhayt better off the line traction, better 1st-2nd shift traction and bigger diameter to give slightly taller gearing.
the fuel pressure thing is weird. you can feel the engine pulling hard until 4200 rpm or about 85 mph, then it just starts to lose power. in the data logs i can see the boost falling off, which correspsonds with what i see on the fuel pressure gauge @ same time.
i am running a sumped stock tank. using a large 3/8 carb filter before the pump. the pump is good for 255 lpm of fuel. and a filter after the pump. i am going to take the fittings off of the pump and drill them out. they are a restriction in my eyes. 3/8 barb and only 3/16 orifice maybe 1/4 at the most. maybe that is it.
i bet if i can hold pressure with fuel then i can easily break into the 13's.
i am running 42 lb injectors now, i also have 50's to pop in when i am ready. the tuning is really easy and would take about 1 hr. tom

Your engine might be detonating?
Causing the timeing to retard,then,, that will cause the boost to drop,having boost drop,,, that will give your boost reference less pressure to your FPR, that will cause your fuel pressure to drop.

On your data logs,can you see if it is pulling timeing @ 4200 RPM @85 MPH = 3rd gear)?? Top of second???
Just a thought.

Maybe your carb fuel filter is a restriction???
I am using a 10 micron filter before my pump & a 100 micron after the pump.


If you can run a 1.8-1.9 60 ft ,youll be running 13's. Get those Mickey thompson drag radials!!!!

My Stock 1997 extra cab 350 Silverado 4900 lb truck runs 2.3-2.4 60 ft times w/3:42 gears.
@ 3000ft elevation track. It makes an advertized HP of 250

You really need to work on your 60 ft times to run 13's
Two cents thrown :-)

MBHD

you may be onto something. i have been bumping up the timing. for instance bottom of 2nd gear is 3200 rpm, boost is 5.6psi timing is 27 degrees, it revs to 4700, at that point boost is 11.5psi and timing is 25 degrees. 3rd is simular with 5.6psi to start but only builds to about 10psi because of lower rpms and this problem.
i did change to another very nice non restrictive filter. the carb one failed on the suction end of the pump.
swap meets are coming up, maybe i'll find some nice drag radials.

tlowe I.I.#1716,,,,,,,

On your data logs,can you see if it is pulling timeing @ 4200 RPM @85 MPH = 3rd gear)?? Top of second???
Because you did install a knock sensor correct??
Sometimes those knock sensors pick up engine noise,pistons loose,exhaust banging on something ,etc,,..

MBHD

hank, i started hooking up the knock kit. its not done yet. so the timing is as ihave it set as above. there is no timing drop @4200 rpm. upon looking over the motor close, i found 2 potential exhaust leaks. one manifold bolt had backed out and more importatly 1 turbo flange bolt was 1.5 turns loose. both are tight now.
can't test tonight and it also rained.

one other theory is maybe my intake air temp is causing problems. before the run it starts @ 100- 105 degrees, thru the run it rises to 115-120 at the end. maybe i am seeing detonation? i am going to pull out some timing at the top end of rpm scale and also try it.

maybe it's time to get one of those methanol injection kits.

i also wish i was not the only one working out all these bugs. i do like the challenge.

tom

tlowe,,,
it could very well be detonating & you will not hear it.
Most guys that turn up the boost & do not want to worry about detonation,they put in straight C16 116 octane leaded race fuel.

115 -120 MAT are not too high,but,,, the temps should be going down during your 1/4 mile pass.

At least the guys w/there Syclones & Typhoons report there temps go down during a 1/4 mile blast w/a air to air intercooler.

My factory air to water intercooler,,, M.A.T,,,temps go up to 115 to 120 on a 90 degree day during a 1/4 mile pass.

The (stock)timeing is about 20 degrees total w/14 psi of boost pressure,, but it also has a knock sensor,incase it starts to knock. Different engine but, it kinda gets you an idea about where your timeing should be.

I have heard of guys runnin @ the most 27 degrees total timeing & 25 psi boost pressure & using a lot of methanol w/a stock small turbo.

I data log my runs & can see the ECU take out timeing by showing the KR's (knock retard),,& when this is happening,& I see it showing 6 degrees(for example) of KR,I cannot hear any detonation. So,just to say, it's saving my engine.

Guys have installed a methanol injection systems on there SY/Ty's & have report say 70-80F or even less temps when running methanol @ W.O.T. running 20-24 psi boost pressure.

I activated my Aquamist( W/methanol) system for about 5-8 seconds @ 1800 RPM & touched my intake manifold,& it felt like it was about 50 degrees F
on an 85 degree day.

I have not hooked up my Diacom to see the manifold air temp drops,but I am certain it gets really cold.

I would seriously look into a methanol injection kit,race fuel is very pricey.

MBHD

guy's
i am disappointed with you. atleast those with experience with forced induction.

i think my newest problem is spark blow out. my spark is generated by a new, stock hei. the plugs are gapped @ .050. i think that is it.

tonight i regapped the plugs and added a 50kv coil. did not test it yet.

lookout here come 13's

after that more boost. tom

Hey now,now,,,,don't blame us, .050 gap is a big no no,(esp w/a stock HEI)I thought you would have known that???
Besides, you never told us you gapped your plugs @ .050,,, where did you get an idea to do that big a gap???

I can't tell you everything.Or do I have to??? LOL

Oh, BTW,, when you use an alky injection system,close your gap up more.

MBHD

not blaming you guys, just bringing up this because it should have been a #1 on even my list. they are gapped @ .035 now.

stock hei's do well with big gaps, normally.

i also got to get this thing weighed.
any guess's? tom

TLOWE,,,,

Only one year that I know of GM gapped there plugs @ .050,,, 1975.First year of HEI,, IIRC?

Then they stopped that the following year because they were having a hard time passing smog tests w/a .050 plug gap.

I still run a .040 gap & run up to 21 psi of boost pressure w/an Aquamist alky injection,,, but I also have an MSD 6A box.

My 65 SS Malibu weighed 3420
It had disc brakes,Rally steel wheels,1.250" front sway bar.

I put a 350 SBC & a turbo 350 trans.
Also had A/C.

I will guess yours will weigh 3200 - 3300 LBS
What do you think it weighs?

MBHD

good news. took it out today. the problem is gone. it runs smooth and strong thru all gears.

took it to the local grainery to weigh. comes in at 3650 with me in it. driving it to take my boy to soccer. seeya. tom

TLowe,,,
So, 3650? I will guess you weigh 200??
I would think an Elky would be lighter than a Malibu?
Is a 292 heavier than a standard SBC 350?
Maybe with the turbo exhaust manifold,turbo,intercooler, plumbing etc.

A 250 is supposed to be 100 LBS lighter than a standard SBC.
Glad that closing the plug gap fixed it.

When is the next rack day to run it again?

MBHD

i weigh around 180
700r4 is heavier than any 1965 tranny
12" front disc b body spindles
12 bolt rear w disc brakes
turbo/manifold/intercooler/and a 292 all add up.

i may get one more run at a track this year. they are closing soon and my schedule does not meet with theirs. tom

I bet your elky stops good w/those size rotors.

Is a 700R4 heavyier than a turbo 400? Not sure??

Hope you can beat your last run since you have it running better.
Goodluck!


MBHD

hi guy's, another update.

recently was hearing a vacum leak at idle. engine still runs good. found the leak. it was my intake gasket blowing out. i do not recomend the felpro 1257 race intake gasket. here are a couple of pic's.



got it replaced with a felpro stock type gasket now.

hopefully taking it to the track this weekend one last time. i will bump the wastegate to closer to 9 psi. look out here come 13's. tom

Tlowe,,

I forgot, what psi spring do you have in your wastegate?

Buy some race gas like C16 ,116 Octane & really turn up the boost.
Since it might be the last track day to go,what the heck?

MBHD

hey guy's, not trying to go out with a bang.

i do hope to keep improving the combo. so far i am very happy with the improvements i have achieved.

on second thought only 20 psi to get 12's. hummm. maybe next year. i am having too much fun as is. you just can't wipe the grin from my face when people ask me what under the hood and i pop it to show them.

hank , i do have only the 6-9 lb spring in, and it is set more toward 7 psi.
tom

tlowe,

I do not want to see you go out in a bang,just @ least a 13 second timeslip.

C16 will be hard for your engine to detonate,it would be a safe fuel for you to use to crank up the timing & boost & not worry too much about detonating.
Goodluck @ the track,& get some slicks!!!!

MBHD

well, here is the low down.

at home on sat morn and turned up the wastegate with a 6-9 lb spring. added 5 gallon sunoco gas. drove to town and topped off with 92 octane.

this is at 11am. racing starts at 12 in cedarfalls , it is a 1/2 drive. i have to be back by 2:15 for my boy's soccer game and i am a line coach.

so i am leaving town at a normal pace and suddenly the engine loses power and struggles to pull itself. i look at the fuel pressure guage and see about 5 psi. i pull into a parking lot and stop everything. pop the hood and see fuel sprayed every where. it seems that one of my injector bosses had slipped toward the intake by the fuel pressure pushing the fuel injector toward it. i had installed my injector bosses with epoxy, it was supposed to impervious to gas and good to 450 heat. well now the intake is getting pulled and they will be welded. i'll get a better run yet. tom

tlowe,
That bites!
I remember your pic of your intake,& was wondering how your injector bungs were being held in? I remember not seeing any welds.

What octane Sunoco was it?

Were you going to race it this weekend?
Goodluck when you do!

MBHD

now that the weather is straightening out and i have more time for my projects, here is some more on my motor/car.

i recently made a siamesed port divider, it sticks into the intake between my injectors about 2 " and the other way it goes between the valves. this is to more evenly distribute the fuel to each cylinder. on a naturally asperated engine this would kill airflow, but on a turbo/ boosted engine there is excess airflow. well it turned out really good. performance is about the same at the top, but the idle and low end is 50% better. thats huge.

last night i worked on my wastegate and pulled the silve 6-8 lb spring and put in the 9-13 lb one. now the engine is practically at 6 lbs in a instant and than creeps up higher in boost with rpms. wow the boost can really wake a motor up!

tonight i ran some video's of it with my daughters camera and put them on youtube. seach for 1965 elcamino turbo inline. you will find my vid's. i may adjust the wastegate to a higher setting as i get used to the higher boost at a lower rpm.

i am still being very conservative with the timing and will bring it up as time progress's. later . tom

Seriously,,,, look into a methanol injection set-up.
You will never go back to just pump gas or race gas for that matter.
http://www.alkycontrol.com/
http://www.rjcracing.com/SMC_Alcohol_Injection/smc_alcohol_injection.html
http://www.snowperformance.net/

Two cents thrown ,,,,again :-)

Tom,
just wondering where you have your timing set to, & what is the max you have gone w/the total timing?

MBHD

hank, i will get some snap shots of my setup and post them. the data that is. tom

In gasoline engines, as with any intercooler, this suppresses detonation so more power producing boost and timing can be utilized. Water, with its high latent heat of vaporization cools the intake charge and combustion. Methanol cools the charge and combustion but also acts like an extremely high octane fuel (some researchers claim as high as 120 octane) as well as adding more oxygen to combustion. Snow performance

Guys with there Syclones & Typhoons like to use 100% methanol,including me.

Sounds good,can't wait!

MBHD

hank, here is the spark map and a datalog. the vertical line on datalog represents the real time #'s at that point.

Are you getting 24-25 degrees max total under full boost?

Do you have a chart that shows boost pressure, A/F ratio, all in one?

I am new to this stuff.

MBHD