Inliners International Forums General Discussion AMC/JEEP Installing a 258 in 1950 Pickup

Hi All,

I am stuck in bed due to a recent leg injury. So, bored out of my mind I made a to-do list for my '50 Willys Pickup. The
most annoying trait of the truck is the transfer case whine.
Nobody loves a whiner...So, I got on the glorious Inter Web
and went wish list shopping...For those who don't know, I already hopped up the 195.5 Rambler engine, installed a Saturn
overdrive and rebuilt the transfer case using an Advance Adapters
kit for the intermediate gear..

After shopping, I ended up with is two complete axles (F & R) with 4.88 gears, a 1982 Jeep 4.2 engine, 5-speed and Dana 300 transfer case. The axles are from a 1962 Jeep truck and will bolt in after I overhaul them. The engine is one of those on
the list, that those who know (maybe, maybe not) say won't fit
in my truck without cutting up the firewall..We'll see... I
will get this engine installed.. And I will persist until I have
a quiet transfer case in my truck.

I can't wait to get started..I'm just waiting on the healing
process of my old body right now.. At 66, it's not a quick as it used to be..

When I get this project complete, I'll be husseling off my
195.5 Rambler, T90 trans and Dana 18 transfer case. Oh, and
the leftover axles with 5.38 gears. I'll try and remember to take some photo's of the project as I go.

Its great you still have the ambition to tackle such a project. Sound like a nice build.

That sounds like a great project. Sounds like one of those raise the radiator cap and drive a new truck under it deals.

I'm not sure yet. The front x-member was moved by a previous owner to allow the 196 Rambler engine to fit. It looks like I will only need to position the 258 between the radiator and firewall with new motor mount brackets. I will be reusing the Weber Carburetor, radiator (in current location), and electric fan. The original trans x-member will be relocated to the rear. The drive shafts will need to be re-tubed to the new lengths. I'll need to makeup a new exhaust head pipe. I'm using a new, electronic distributor. The clutch linkage will need to be fitted. The new clutch still uses an arm to move the throw-out bearing. In the cab, I'll fill the shift lever/s holes and make a new tunnel/trans cover. I'm converting the Dana 300 to a twin shift lever unit. So, with the right knobs on the shifters the cab floor won't look a lot different. Except the overdrive lever will be gone. The front axle is a Dana 25, identical to original equipment (but with 4.88 gears). It will look the same. The rear axle looks like the optional one for 1950, except this one has 4.88 gears.

The rest of the truck will remain the same.. No power steering, brakes or air conditioning. No power windows and still will have vacuum wipers.

I'm even going to paint the engine the same Chevy orange, just like the 195.5 engine.... When most people look at my truck, they see an old original style pickup with chrome wheels.. I got the original gauges to work and calibrated the 80 MPH speedo. I've tried to keep the original feel of the truck in tack. No monster tires, big lift or V8 engine.. I'm old and like that look..Just like when I was a kid...

How much different are the 2 engines? I would think that 60+ cubic inch increase would alone boost power a lot Jay 6155

Intergrated,

I'm guessing at a 30% increase in torque and HP. The Dana 53 should be fine with the increase. The Dana 25 front axle will be OK because I don't EVER go off roading.. I only use the 4WD feature of my truck on loose fire roads and snow. The upgraded trans (T5) will be the weak link. They don't do well with more
than 200 lb ft of torque...They also wear out fast with hard use.
The hardest use this truck ever sees is pulling the grade on the freeway (5 mile @ Castaic, Grapevine South, Northbound 101 out of SLO). The 258 should be a great match for the weight (3,220
lbs) and new gearing. Here's the RPM/MPH in 4th (Direct) and 5th (.086 Overdrive)


MPH .. 4th RPM .. 5th RPM
50 ... 1937 ..... 1666
60 ... 2325 ..... 2000
70 ... 2712 ..... 2332
75... 2906 ...... 2500

This is with 4.88 gears and 235/85/16 tires (31.5" high)

Oh, and the truck weight will probably go up 50-100 lbs with the newer engine...

Sounds like a fun ride. Also sounds like a 258 is a bigger engine on the outside than a 196. Can you use a header from a late Jeep? Jay 6155

Jay,

Headers probably won't fit. It's pretty tight between the frame, floor/firewall, engine already.. Also, the master cylinder is bolted to the frame in this area and I've already had to insulate it and the brake lines from heat.. On one trip,
before shielding the brake line, I got up in the morning to find the brake pedal going almost to the floor.. I bled out the air to restore my brakes and then put rubber fuel line hose over the
metal brake line, near the master cylinder...This occurred in the summer and I was driving in hills at low speeds and my antique Harley in the bed... Now, the brake fluid doesn't get hot...

Oh, and I also bled the living crap out of the brakes when I returned home... The fluid (DOT 3) was brown;.



So, I think headers won't be an option for me...Also, I had headers on a number of cars when I was a kid.. The noise, heat and constant leakage problems really got to be a pain..But I do think cast iron headers are the cats ass, (the best setup for cars that are driven everyday on the street).

Anyway, I'm guessin' that a healthy 258 with a Weber, progressive carb, electronic distributor will be more than adequate for my application... Now, computer controlled fuel injection, that compensates fuel mixture for altitude...That is something that peaks my interest.. Or, an aircraft style mixture control for the carburetor... You know, the thing that makes your engine backfire when you forget to enrich coming down from the mountain.......Man, I gotta get this leg fixed. I'm gettin' really way out there today...

I also had headers when I was a kid and had the same bad
experences that you did. Is it even possible to make metal that thin? LOL That being said, I did help my son in law put a Gale Banks header on his Jeep Wrangler. This was a high Quality product that did not leak or rust away. It also fit perfectly with no trouble and was cheaper than a new stock unit IIRC. I don't know if it will clear your chassis but it is worth at least a look. My Father flew a plane for a hobby so I know what you mean about the mixture control. I always thought it interesting that to shut off the engine you pulled the lever out (leaning the mixture) until the engine died. Jay 6155

I hobbled outside today and measured the length of the 258 (33 1/2") and the length of the 195.6 (30"). This is from the bell housing plate to the tip of the waterpump shaft. And yeah, if
I move the radiator forward 1" there will be 1" between the water pump and the radiator core.. I just have to move the electric fan position and the engine will fit.. The shifter location in the floor board is 12+ inches in front of the seat
box so the new shifters will fit ahead of the floor box. That's where they need to be. I am hoping to be walking in another 4 weeks and then the fun will begin...I can't wait to start stripping the smog crap off the 258..So many sensors, hoses and
that ugly EGR...... Although, once upon a time... I used EGR on a Ford engine to keep light throttle pinging at bay...I raised the compression to 10/1 and used a mixture of Edelbrock and Ford parts to use EGR under the Holley 750 carb...I had it smogged twice and the smog guy never caught on the all the mods on that
351M......401", high compression,and a nice RV cam..

Duplicate post and it won't delete.

So they are not the same on the outside like a 305/350 Chevy. Does the 258 have a factory 2bbl carb? Is it computer controled? Just interested. If you don't know that's ok please don't hurt your leg hopping around trying to find out. Jay 6155

Jay,

The 195.6 is a long stroke, small bore engine. The 199/232/258 is a completely new design (in 1965). I has a much larger bore and 7 main bearings (195.6 has 4 mains). So although the engines look similar, there are no interchangeable parts. For my purposes the 258 is 3.5" longer that the 195.6.

The 258 I have (1982) is a computer controlled, 2 barrel carbureted engine.. I will be changing the distributor to an aftermarket one that does not need a computer. I will be taking the Weber 2 barrel off my 195.6, changing the jets and putting it on the 258. And yeah, it just bolts on. All the sensors on the 258 will be removed (like the O2 sensor). No computer so no sensors. So, I'm converting the engine to non computer configuration. I will keep a PVC circuit.

At some point, I may change the intake and exhaust manifolds to the style they used on the early 70's, 232 engine. I'd really like the engine to appear like an early 232. And I think the operation of the engine, 5speed overdrive trans and silent
Dana 300 will make the truck much more enjoyable to drive. I also think that a Jeep engine in a Jeep truck is an appealing combination. Oh, and I wouldn't be doing this to an unmolested, original Willys truck.. My truck was abused, butchered up and worn out when I bought it. It already had the 195.6 engine in it and the installation was done by someone who did crude work and didn't understand the importance of keeping engine and transmission centerlines within tolerances.

So, I'm just keeping this old truck on the road. I have tried to improve the look by adding an original steering wheel, and original front bumper and a seat (1964 Nova split-back) that
appears like it might have been original. The style is 1960's, mild hot-rodded, truck. Semi gloss paint, nearly stock interior, chrome wheels and big tires. Oh, and a great radio. I love my Ford, 6CD stereo. I put the speakers in the sides of the headliner. The sound comes at you like a giant pair of headphones. I'm old but I still dig Rock & Roll...

Thanks for the info.One of the reasons that I was curious is that growing up we had a 1964 Rambler American 2dr coupe. I was kinda young then but I know that it had a six and a 3 speed trans. There was a decal on the valve cover that I thuoght said 232. I could easily be wrong as those almost 50 year old memeriores have faded.(a lot!) If you know anything about what might have been in the car please let me know. Thanks for telling me about the 258. It's always interesting to learn. What size webber are you going to run? Jay 6155

Jay,

In 1964, Rambler made 3 six cylinder engines. All were 195.6
cubic inch displacement. Two overheads, one in cast iron the other was alloy. The third was a flathead.

In 1965, Rambler came out with the 199. This year they also
offered the 195.6 OHV in iron and the flathead. The 195.6 OHV
which I currently have, had the one year only full flow oil filter and a waterpump bypass.. The bypass helped keep the engine temps uniform before the thermostat opened. The 195.6
is one tough little engine. Stock, it pulls like a little diesel. The 199 was enlarged to the 232 after a year or so.

The Weber I am using is a progressive 2 barrel. It is sold as
a replacement/performance carb for the Carter 2 barrel that comes on the 258.. I think it is a 34/36 mm carb. I rejeted it per the postings of Tom Jennings and his 195.6 hop up work on his Rambler. It's a great little carb. Good gas mileage and much smoother operation than the Carter. A wee bit more mid-range
power that the Carter. And, the price is right...I think is was less than $300.

If thats the case we must have had the iron OHV engine. I remember well enough that it had a valve cover and was not a flat head engine. Another reason I think it was iron is my Father would have mentioned it to me or other people if it wasn't plain old iron. At least we have for sure narrowed it down to two possibilites. I do know for sure that it was a 1964. We even got it painted white from the light purple color. Mom also had an older Rambler before that that looked like an oversize Nash Metropoliton. It had an auto trans and my
father often commeted about how much faster the old one was. It might even have been a 4cyl for all I know because I was even younger then. Thanks for helping me out Jay 6155

Hello,

Well I hobbled around well enough this last week to move my
"new" engine into the garage. I removed most everything from the long block. I inspected the mains and rods and found I have a good, useable 20/20 crank and bearings. I still have to remove the timing cover and see if the chain/gears are OK or have to be replaced. The old oil was brown but did not have any
foreign material..

I started to sand blast the intake and exhaust manifolds and then remembered I needed to take some photos.. Not much to look
at yet. I remeasured the engine and it's just gonna fit..

The front crossmember was relocated by a previous owner. Down
about 4 inches... I might have to put a small window in it for
the front dampner, but I won't have to cut up the firewall..
More to follow as I make progress..

Lots of Photos and no way to post them.. Then webmaster must be on vacation...

Lots of Photos and no way to post them.. Then webmaster must be on vacation...

Looking forward to the pictures. Jay 6155

Hi Guys,

Well I've been trying to post a few photos for about a month.
No help to date... But work is progressing slowly anyway.
I cleaned and inspected the donor engine (258).. The top end is
serviceable... I did clean a few exhaust valve seats with my
antique cutters..I removed the excessive carbon from the intake
valves and installed new stem rubbers. New head gasket and the
top end is back on the block... The bottom end however was a
little disappointing... I struck copper on the rear main.. The
journals are all still shiny and bright so I'm gonna reuse the
crank as is.... I'm waiting now for a new set of main and rod
inserts... New timing gears/chain, water pump and thermo housing
will go on after I sneak the crank out and then back in the block

I'll be making the EGR block off plate and plug in the next week or so...Also a plug for the O2 sensor.. I bead blasted the
stock intake and exhaust manifolds the other day..

Cleaning up a used/replacement oil pan was interesting... The
gunk on the inside was so bad, I had to use paint stripper to get
down to bare metal... The outside had a rust/crust UNDER the paint. I bead blasted that away and then put on a little engine
paint.

I'll be rebopping the alternator bracket, moving the alt to
the rear about an inch.. This will allow using the vibration
dampner as the alt belt drive... Shortening the engine assy
about an inch.

I'll also be pulling covers and inspecting the T5 trans and the Dana 300 transfer case.. Last things to inspect and repair will be the two axles, Dana 25 up front and Dana 53.

I purchased 3" channel iron the other day to use for my new
rear/trans mount cross member. The current cross member will
remain on the truck. The new one will mount the same as the original, only rearward about 7 inches. The sides of it will
bolt to the outside of the frame rails and the bottom part
will be about one inch below the bottom of the frame...Sure wish I could post photos.. I have a weak vocabulary and cursing (my usual option) isn't appreciated on the inter web...(ha)

Hi Guys,

Well I've been trying to post a few photos for about a month.
No help to date... But work is progressing slowly anyway.
I cleaned and inspected the donor engine (258).. The top end is
serviceable... I did clean a few exhaust valve seats with my
antique cutters..I removed the excessive carbon from the intake
valves and installed new stem rubbers. New head gasket and the
top end is back on the block... The bottom end however was a
little disappointing... I struck copper on the rear main.. The
journals are all still shiny and bright so I'm gonna reuse the
crank as is.... I'm waiting now for a new set of main and rod
inserts... New timing gears/chain, water pump and thermo housing
will go on after I sneak the crank out and then back in the block

I'll be making the EGR block off plate and plug in the next week or so...Also a plug for the O2 sensor.. I bead blasted the
stock intake and exhaust manifolds the other day..

Cleaning up a used/replacement oil pan was interesting... The
gunk on the inside was so bad, I had to use paint stripper to get
down to bare metal... The outside had a rust/crust UNDER the paint. I bead blasted that away and then put on a little engine
paint.

I'll be rebopping the alternator bracket, moving the alt to
the rear about an inch.. This will allow using the vibration
dampner as the alt belt drive... Shortening the engine assy
about an inch.

I'll also be pulling covers and inspecting the T5 trans and the Dana 300 transfer case.. Last things to inspect and repair will be the two axles, Dana 25 up front and Dana 53.

I purchased 3" channel iron the other day to use for my new
rear/trans mount cross member. The current cross member will
remain on the truck. The new one will mount the same as the original, only rearward about 7 inches. The sides of it will
bolt to the outside of the frame rails and the bottom part
will be about one inch below the bottom of the frame...Sure wish I could post photos.. I have a weak vocabulary and cursing (my usual option) isn't appreciated on the inter web...(ha)

Get a Photobucket account (free) and post the links to the photos you want to post, Pretty simple

Get a Photobucket account (free) and post the links to the photos you want to post, Pretty simple

Hello,
Sore leg nearly better yet?
Posting pix is easy if you use a photo hosting service.
Sites like Tinypic or Photobucket are good.
http://tinypic.com/

http://photobucket.com/





This instruction is for Tinypic:
1. Open Tinypic site.
2. See Upload Images and Videos.
3. Click "Browse"
4. Locate your image from your files in your computer.
5. Once you have the image, click "open" in the displayed box at the bottom of your image.
6. Use the "IMG Code for Forums and Message Boards". Left click to highlight, then right click and left click "copy".
7. Now, return to your Inliners message you are making. To insert the URL, right click and a box with the option "paste"appears. Left click "paste".

You are done.

Obviously, you will have to open the hosting service in a seperate tab to do this without it being very awkward.Right click on your browser icon and select "open new tab".
In all this I am assuming you are using Windows? If Apple, disregard it all.

It might seem complicated by this explanation, but in reality is pretty quick.
At the moment Tinypic needyou to type some code letters to avoid Spybots. no big deal.
YOUR image should then appear as this one of me in 1964, with my '58 Aussie "FC" Holden.

regards,Rod.

Hi Guys,

Well this is the 3rd attempt to post a reply...
My leg is much better... My posting photos is
dead until I make contact with the webmaster.
Thanks for the info on posting, though. This
website is not working properly and it seems
nobody is in charge or gives a crap...

So, if another year goes by and nothing changes...
I will no longer be an inliner...Part of the fun
is reading and participating on the website.. Take
that away and what's the point..

Later, Melon

Have you tried emailing Tim? (webmaster)

webmaster@inliners.org


regards,Rod.

Yes, I have tried contacting the Webmaster....And he can't be
reached for love or money...So, anyway, here's where I am today
on this project...I've got the engine ready, minus the carb
for installation... I'll still need to fab up frame to motor mounts and make a new rear crossmember.

I tore down the rear axle, inspected and ordered new seals.
I tore down the rear brakes and ordered parts..Still need to
cleanup the backing plates.

The gears and bearings on the rear axle are serviceable.. The
inside of the axle tubes were encrusted with rust on the upper
part... I used a rotary sanding drum on a drill extension to
clean that mess up..

The new front axle (1962 that is) is straight.. The one on the
truck is bent.. It has negative camber on both sides...This is
what happens when you hang 1,000 lbs of snow plow equipment on
a Willys with a Dana 25 front axle... Change out the springs
to extreme overload type and then work the truck for 10 or 12
years in Colorado..But, it's OK.. I'll just change out the current axle (it has 5.38's anyway) for the newer one (it has
4.88's) and the truck should be happy with that.

And finally, here are some photos of all this crap..

The trans and transfer case have been inspected and are ready.
Here's a photo of the engine.

I still have to refresh the entire front axle..Soup to nuts, drum to drum, hub lock to hub lock..Thank goodness the axle
is still straight.

I'm currently waiting for a throwout bearing, rubber mounts
for the engine/trans and rear axle seals.. When I'm done the
truck should run like a near new 1983 Jeep.. Man, I really enjoyed removing the smog crap from the engine. With all my
other commitments, I hope to have this project done by late
fall.. I sure hope the Rambler radiator will be enough for the
Jeep engine.....I'll certainly find out. Trial & Error Engineering ........

The 1962 rear axle is done..And it feels smooth as butter. New
wheel cylinders and shoes were installed yesterday... The engine
and trans assembly is now outside on a wooden stand..

I'll be using 4" channel iron for the rear/trans crossmember.
8" stubs on the outside of the frame, hanging down the bottom
2".. The cross member then bolts to the stubs. I'm using 3/8"
grade 5 bolts to attached everything.

The front mounts from the frame to the rubber mounts will
be made from 4" channel... 5" section on each side. Inserted into the frame. Held in place with 3/8" bolts thru the frame
top and bottom...The channel will have threaded holes.. Small
strip welds will be added along the edges to add strength..
4" channel with a bias cut on the sides will be welded to the
frame inserts... These sections are what the rubber mounts bolt
to. I'll posting photos of this process when I get to it.

I'll be glad to remove the Mickey Mouse frame mounts that
the previous installer/butcher welded on the frame... Everything
that was done was strong, but poorly designed and looks crude
as crap.. The poor old 75 year old frame needs some love respect
and help handling the extra 100 HP..The original engine put out
72 HP from 134 cu in..

Good job buddy keep up the hard work guys like you keep us all motivated

I'm having lots of trouble posting.... Anyway, here's a photo
of the Jeep engine in the Willys.. The motor mounts are OK. I am still working on the trans mount crossmember. I test fit the radiator and I'll need to put the electric fan on the front (and reverse polarity/rotation of it). I will have room to put a
fan on the waterpump if needed. The trans lid hump in the floor is no longer needed, so I made a flat plate from 3/32" aluminum
to cover the hole in the floor...I had to replace the seat. I found pieces of seat spring while moving stuff around in the cab.
It was a 1964 Nova seat out of a two door...So, I found a bench
seat (I hate buckets) out of a early Dodge Dakota. I had it
recovered and it looks right at home... It has a thinner back to it and it gave me a little more room in the cab.

Note that the firewall remains uncut..

The shift levers (reduced from 4 to 2) now fit nicely.. The T5 hasa short precise feel compared to the old T-90. I still need to properly mount the seat and recarpet the floor.. The cab is small and the extra room added by lowering part of the floor, changing the seat and eliminating two shift levers is a nice improvement...Without ruining the old timey feel of it...

OK, I got the photo bucket dealie figured out today... I hope the next time I post, I can remember the drill... I'm hoping to
test fire the engine in the next week... I got the rear driveshaft back yesterday... I had it shortened 8" to allow for
the new drive train length... Monday the front drive shaft should
be ready... Looks like both crossmembers that go under the trans
will need some clearancing. I'm looking forward to a test drive.
Then I will move on to the axle change out..1st the rear, a Dana
53 and then the front (Dana 25). And just a reminder....I do not plan to hop-up the engine...I don't want to put unnecessary strain on the cooling or drive train...I'm hoping the Rambler
radiator, T5 trans and little, old Dana axles will be cool with a 258 and a Weber carb...

Today, I hope to fabricate the new throttle linkage for the Weber. I use motorcycle throttle cable instead of links and
pivots.. I've been busy with other projects for the last week.
It appears I have the engine in the right spot. I made new
clutch linkage last week.. And, oh yeah, that orange stuff on the floor is silicone rubber sheeting... It's used by line men when working on live power wires to insulate them... They just throw a sheet of it over a nearby wire... I got mine out of the
trash at work...It's pretty good at insulating heat and noise.
I am replacing some of it with Dyna Mat..I think glueing the mat
down is the way to go. With a Willys Truck you get LOTS of noise
from wind and drive train... They were designed to cruise @ 45 mph.... Not 65-70 mph...