|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133
Contributor
|
OP
Contributor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133 |
Got the car together and running. EFI on and tune just getting started. Then the distributor gear piles up and takes the cam with it. So gotta haul the car back to Calgary and get that crap sorted out. Looks like it's going to be a next year project now. Paul
V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one. 69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133
Contributor
|
OP
Contributor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133 |
Well,.....according to the engine builder the reason the distributor gear roll pin came out of place is harmonics due to oil pump cavitation.
Im using a Melling M62HV oil pump. Anyone ever had any issues with that?
Paul
V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one. 69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 468 Likes: 4
Contributor
|
Contributor
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 468 Likes: 4 |
I've seen distributor gear pins staked or bradded. You'll have to use a slightly longer pin and maybe a little heat!!
Never use a minor caliber bullet on a major caliber adversary
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133
Contributor
|
OP
Contributor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133 |
They are tacking it in place with a spot weld, and machining the distributor collar to get a better fit to the cam gear.
V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one. 69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 98
Active BB Member
|
Active BB Member
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 98 |
That Camaro is awesome. That is some mighty fine 250 pron. Amazing work.
'71 Chevy Shortbox 250ci '99 Jeep TJ 242ci Inliner #5787
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,839 Likes: 1
1000 Post Club
|
1000 Post Club
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,839 Likes: 1 |
I had nothing but problems running the Melling HV oil pump. I t wiped out 3 different cams and distributor gears. I switched to a standard volume pump and never had a problem since MBHD
The two cams were Clifford's and one American camshaft all new distributor gears were installed. If you insist on using a HV oil pump I would install a bronze distributor gear so it won't wear out the camshaft, but the distributor gear will need replacing after it gets worn, but it will save your camshaft.
12 port SDS EFI
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133
Contributor
|
OP
Contributor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133 |
Thanks for the tip Hank.
Anyone else had issues with the Melling pump? Melling states that they have no known issues with the pump and they would like to have the old pump back. The engine builder is absolving himself of any fault in this so I am looking at another few $K gust to get this thing running again.
If this keeps up I think it will be time to drop the 6 and go for an LS conversion.
Paul
V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one. 69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,839 Likes: 1
1000 Post Club
|
1000 Post Club
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,839 Likes: 1 |
A rule of thumb for SBC does not really apply to our 250 inlines about for every 1000 rpm you need 10 psi of oil pressure. IIRC Mike Kirby had told me 40 psi at 6000 RPM would be OK for oil pressure. There has been others that have had the same problem with that high volume pump causing wear on the camshaft and distributor gear.
MBHD
12 port SDS EFI
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133
Contributor
|
OP
Contributor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133 |
That Camaro is awesome. That is some mighty fine 250 pron. Amazing work. Thanks, I just wish I had the chance to drive it this summer. But, hot rod weather is just 6 months away so lots of time to get it ready. Paul
V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one. 69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,464
1000 Post Club
|
1000 Post Club
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,464 |
Don't "tack" the distributor gear on the shaft. Drill the roll pin hole to 1/8, make a solid pin from 1/8 welding rod, and with a TIG torch ball up one end, insert pin and ball up the other end. Failure proof. I doubt the pin failure was caused by oil pump "cavitation". All HD Melling pumps I've used on O/T brand have work flawlessly
Last edited by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER; 12/11/16 02:21 PM.
FORD 300 inline six - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 16
Active BB Member
|
Active BB Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 16 |
I have had problems with Melling pumps in Chevy big blocks and in Pontiac v-8. I will be hard pressed to use Melling pumps again and several other builders I know will not use them.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,464
1000 Post Club
|
1000 Post Club
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,464 |
I guess I've been lucky then. Just out of curiousity, what was the nature of the failures you have experienced with them? Loss of pressure? galling / seizure? "cavitation"? Did the other builders experience the same kind of failures or different?
FORD 300 inline six - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 821
Major Contributor
|
Major Contributor
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 821 |
If this keeps up I think it will be time to drop the 6 and go for an LS conversion.
Dibs on your six stuff.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133
Contributor
|
OP
Contributor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133 |
Well,....... Can't get the car to run properly on the FAST XFI system. After a lot of head scratching and a couple of beers, and great advice from Tom Lowe I am ditching the TBI and going with port injection. Head is off and intake port dividers are going in. Hopefully going to see some results in a few weeks. Maybe some day I will actually get to drive this car. Thanks again to Tom Lowe. His research, advice, and parts have been a good influence on this project. Paul
V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one. 69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 535
Major Contributor
|
Major Contributor
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 535 |
Persistence goes a loooooong way.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133
Contributor
|
OP
Contributor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133 |
Here is a question for the masses.
Knowing that the fuel atomization from the FAST TBI is not the greatest, is it worth it to even consider trying to run with boost using the TBI and the dividers, or am I likely to run into the same lean outside cylinders vs rich inside cylinders?
I'm thinking best option is cut to the chase and finish off the port injection, but I am curious if anyone has successfully run a boosted inline with TBI and the dividers?
Paul
V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one. 69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 535
Major Contributor
|
Major Contributor
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 535 |
My understanding from people who have done per cylinder O2 monitoring is the modern TBI fuel distribution problem is because the fuel is injected right into the plenum, and gets the full air distribution issues every intake manifold has. The old GM and other OE TBI's had the injector above the throttle blades which mixed the fuel into the air more evenly as it passed by the blades. Even when you can see fuel puddling up on the blades at part throttle! Basically equivalent to a carb.
I have not seen tests of the MSD Atomic unit, but the injectors are above the throttle blades so I'm assuming better fuel distribution.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133
Contributor
|
OP
Contributor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133 |
Finally running at starting to feed it some boost. this has been quite a wallet draining experience for many reasons but it is finally starting to look like I will be driving this thing soon. (not too soon as we are still enjoying winter weather). https://youtu.be/U1UhIJ69BQk
V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one. 69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,123 Likes: 3
1000 Post Club
|
1000 Post Club
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,123 Likes: 3 |
The "10 psi per 1K RPM" works well in part because the manufacturers have cleverly sized the journals to provide enough bearing speed (opposing rotation) to make local (at the actual journal surface) pressure high enough - far more than the relief valve and gauge pressure. This is one reason why slow-turning engines like the 235, GMC, Pontiac L6 have such large journals and safe operation with low gauge pressure - it increases local pressure from the same oil pump output. Yes, that might be dangerous if using Honda 48mm rod pins, the local pressure is proportionate to the pin radius so 1.89" vs. 2.20" (BBC) is 14% less - with the same gauge pressure and pump output volume in GPM. Luckily there's a considerable safety margin or there would already be many loud noises!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 209 Likes: 2
Contributor
|
Contributor
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 209 Likes: 2 |
Throw to distributor and oil pump away. I'm going with crank fired ignition and external oil pump on my blown 292.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133
Contributor
|
OP
Contributor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133 |
I would definitely do crank trigger ignition if I was to do this again.
V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one. 69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133
Contributor
|
OP
Contributor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133 |
My Camaro has come close to being on the road but keeps coming up with issues.
Using the FAST EFI on my car we had horribly lean conditions on the outside cylinders. Couldn't even get the car to idle properly.
With Tom Lowe's advice we added intake port dividers. Then thought what the heck, lets spice things up a bit and went to a batch fired port injection system using the FAST ECM. It has made a huge difference overall but the material the shop used (thin gauge aluminum) to make the dividers folded over with boost and effectively throttled the two end cylinders. They have to go back in and use a heavier gauge material.
I have been reading through the various posts regarding intake port dividers (no shortage of posts on this topic!!) to try to determine what the best approach would be when the existing dividers are replaced. I want this to be the last time we have to take things apart so since it has been a while since much discussion on the divider topic, I have a couple of questions to toss out there for some discussion.
Is there any advantage to extending the dividers deeper into the intake manifold?
Should I stick with the lumps or ditch them? Hopefully we get this sorted out and I can drive this thing. Might even catch up to you some day. My brother lives on the island and I might drive it out there for a visit once all is working the way I want it to.
Paul
V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one. 69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,669 Likes: 42
1000 Post Club
|
1000 Post Club
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,669 Likes: 42 |
Click the link below and this will be very similar to what you can expect by creating a divided port head. Start at page 13 and read to the end. The true EFI intake shown was designed exclusively to be used with divided ports on these heads, and you've already seen the benefits of dividing your head until the unfortunate hiccup with your dividers. But you can get there again. No, remove the lumps, they are no longer needed when you divide the ports, the divider creates the same high velocity because the ports are now singular and not siamese. HERE
Class III CNC Machinist/Programmer
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133
Contributor
|
OP
Contributor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133 |
Thanks!! I do appreciate the help. I wish I had that Marshall intake manifold. Too late right now to get into a change like that. I will discuss the feasibility of yanking the lumps when the dividers are redone. It looks like it might be worthwhile to push the dividers into the intake a certain amount. I seem to recall seeing some photos of various versions of intake port dividers that went deep into the intake manifold. Not sure what the advantages or disadvantages are but the fact that the Marshall intake has completely divided runners suggests that the more separation I can get, the better? My budget has run out a couple of years ago so if I can manage to get this right on the next go round I will hopefully have a car that I can drive this summer. Paul
V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one. 69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,123 Likes: 3
1000 Post Club
|
1000 Post Club
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,123 Likes: 3 |
Not personal experience, but I would extend the divider into the manifold runner as far as possible. Chrysler used the divider length as a tuning aid in the 1960-61 "long ram" B/RB 2 X 4 manifolds.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133
Contributor
|
OP
Contributor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133 |
That does make sense but looking at Tom's pictures from last April it looks like his divider extended slightly into the intake manifold. From what I have read here that setup has worked well.
I would love to have the budget to get the intake and head onto a flow bench and see what the effects are for future projects here, but I do have to stop spending money on this engine at some point.
Of course had I foreseen such issues, I would have spent the money on a 12 port head, intake and exhaust a few years ago and probably be enjoying the car right now.
Paul
V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one. 69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,669 Likes: 42
1000 Post Club
|
1000 Post Club
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,669 Likes: 42 |
I would love to have the budget to get the intake and head onto a flow bench and see what the effects are for future projects here, but I do have to stop spending money on this engine at some point.
Paul
Been there and done that! Panic is correct about extending the dividers as far into the I take as possible. It's hard to Do without a purpose built intake like mine though. Do the the same in the cylinder head as well.
Class III CNC Machinist/Programmer
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,805 Likes: 1
1000 Post Club
|
1000 Post Club
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,805 Likes: 1 |
Paul,
We did discuss the alternative and the 4200's are readily available in picknpull in Calgary for C$400 complete with harness and PCM .... put in new rings, bearings, timing chain, and new oil pump....
If you sold everything you have - at the end you would most likely come out $1000 ahead.... And make more power..
Last edited by efi-diy; 05/31/18 02:50 PM.
51 GMC 4.2 turbo Can't solved today's problems using the same technology/thinking that created them
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133
Contributor
|
OP
Contributor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133 |
One day Marc I might just go that route. But not in this car. Paul
V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one. 69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 535
Major Contributor
|
Major Contributor
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 535 |
The Marshall intake is beautiful! I'm tempted to pick up a second one, but I need to get this one running first!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133
Contributor
|
OP
Contributor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133 |
Finally!!!! After dealing with all of the setbacks and snails pace progress the engine is running to a level where it makes consistent and reliable power. Best pull so far is 375 HP and 380 ft/lbs. torque to the rear wheels. this gives me my 400 HP at the flywheel that I was looking for. Video below was a little less but still acceptable for now. I'll drive it a bit in the spring to sort out the car and enjoy it for a while. Then back to the dyne and some tweaks for more power. https://youtu.be/INknS0tmDAA
V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one. 69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 78
Active BB Member
|
Active BB Member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 78 |
wow, huge congrats on getting your engine running! Looking forward to 400HP! Please post updates!
Last edited by moregrip; 12/17/18 11:46 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 493
Contributor
|
Contributor
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 493 |
panic...you mean where they issued a service "how to" to shorten the long ram intake internally to raise the power/torque happening rpm level by removing the "roof" of the ports near the carb end and cutting out the dividing wall then rewelding the "roof" back on??
Last edited by preacher-no choir; 12/28/18 01:39 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,123 Likes: 3
1000 Post Club
|
1000 Post Club
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,123 Likes: 3 |
Never read that, just 2 different part numbers. Jetting and other changes: unknown.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 493
Contributor
|
Contributor
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 493 |
it helped marginally on dragstrip but with 4.56 on the street was not worth all the work...car went faster with a plain ol' Edlebrock high rise and single holly 780 on his bored to 426 413 block '65 Belvedere body. original design was fine for highway driven heavy 300 car...really had boot at 70 for passing.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,839 Likes: 1
1000 Post Club
|
1000 Post Club
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,839 Likes: 1 |
McGoo, nice work. That should be a pretty quick 6 congrats!
I have not been on for a long time because the only way to post was through my phone. P.I.T.A.
MBHD
12 port SDS EFI
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 5
Active BB Member
|
Active BB Member
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 5 |
I’m new to inline engines, and I’ve been following this thread with interest. I have a similar project in process for me and my wife. It appears that one of the big keys to success is dividing the intake tract from the plenum to the valve; did you end up leaving the lump port inserts in, or did you take them out?
The chassis dyno video looked great. It’s smooth as silk! What camshaft numbers did you end up with for the solid flat tappet? How much boost did it take to make those power numbers?
Good job, and I salute your perseverance!
Travis Quillen Quillen Motorsports Engineering 256-476-1053
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133
Contributor
|
OP
Contributor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133 |
Thanks Hank.
It's not over yet. I have been busy with work and life so have not been able to get into the details.
I will admit that I was ready to pull the plug and part out the whole project about three months ago.
The good thing is I have learned a lot and hopefully will have an opportunity to share with others that are heading down this path.
I can certainly appreciate Tom Lowe's efforts to document his build project . His input, yours, and others, has been very helpful.
How is your Firebird coming along?
Paul
Last edited by McGoo; 01/08/19 12:37 AM.
V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one. 69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133
Contributor
|
OP
Contributor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 133 |
Travis,
I cannot say enough about port dividers. It is a must do. My choice to use lumps and not dividers early on cost me a lot of money.
I will post pics or links of the final dividers used as soon as I can.
PM me if you have any questions.
Paul
V8 Camaros are like navels, everybody has one. 69 Camaro EFI Turbo 250 project is running!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 5
Active BB Member
|
Active BB Member
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 5 |
Travis Quillen Quillen Motorsports Engineering 256-476-1053
|
|
|
0 members (),
75
guests, and
49
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|