Inliners International Forums General Discussion Drive Train Adapting a 1955 open drivetrain

Shipping to Washington state to have the speedo converted.

Well, I think at minimum I'm gonna need to replace the 5th gear set also, since I went out earlier to count the drive gear and the main shaft gear...not good...drive gear is 25, main shaft is 51, which provides a 0.490. Looking at the numbers, someone was showing me that with the 3.38 gears I really need a .86 set, that would put me right around 2150 rpm at 65mph.

Ok, talked to a guy in SC today, he hangs out on Stovebolt under the username Lugnutz. Very nice guy, and he set me correct in a few things about the transmission.

1) although the tag says a '93 when you look it up, it has a small insignia with a 5 in the center, so Jay said it was a '95. You can see the odd screw with a nut on it. That one is being stubborn. You can also see the 5 in the center of the flower design, what Jay referred tot it as. That designates a '95 Transmission evidently.



2) I will most likely need to make or get an adapter plate as this T5 has a Ford bolt pattern, Jay said GM did that after late '93, and there are adapter plates available, but $175. At least it will work.

Ford T5 to Muncie Bell Housing

3) I calculated the 5th gears wrong, and he thinks they could be .86, or .76 as I had originally thought, which is perfect for me, if it is. I need to verify the gears inside the case, but one of the screw/bolts is stuck. Soaking with PB Blaster as I type.

This guy helped me a great deal in being able to start understanding my transmission. He's helped a lot of people, but I'm the first with a late model WC S10 T5. Everyone else had a NWC. If you watch this video, his 5th gear is a 25/61, my T5 has a 25/51 in it. If you calculate with the CS gears he has in his (37 on the 4th gear), I would have .86 overdrive which would be PERFECT! According to his calcs, my engine would be going about 2150 RPMs going 65mph.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcgX8R2l9Ok

And I did learn the rest of the puzzle today. I have the original 1946 bell housing in my truck. I'll need to make a bracket to hold the master cylinder that is in it now, the master cylinder and hard lines were done by the previous owner. I was told some folks let it hang with no added support and they seem to do ok, but I think it's better to make a bracket and secure it. It does have brake fluid in it...

Anyway, the pre-'54 bell housings had a slightly smaller pattern. I'm going to leave the bell housing in it that is in there now. Dave, over at Vintage Metalworks is going to make me a plate that will go from the bell housing pattern I have on my '46 to the Ford bolt pattern on the T5.

This adapter is for the '54-'62 bell housing to the Ford bolt pattern:

http://vintagemetalworks.blogspot.com/p/t5-9495.html

The reason I don't want to change the bell housing is that the older trucks like mine had a pedal mount on the bell housing and if I put the '55 Series 2 bell housing in it, I'll need to fabricate some type of pedal mount. I think it's easier to leave that the way it is.

Dave has a guy that will rebuild my clutch disc, or build me a new one that will work in my bell housing with a 26 spline for the input shaft. In short, the T5 will remain as-is, other than the tail shaft modification that is being done to it, I'll use the adapter plate for my '46 bell housing that Dave will make for me, and the drive shaft from the '55 I have. I probably will need to cut down my drive shaft, Dave thought possible 3" or so, and I'll use the '55 Series 2 axle with the 3.38 r/p.

Sounds like you have it all figured out. The video was interesting. I didn't know the OD worked that way. It is good to use the original bell housing. Will you use the floor starter? That alone is a theft deterrent now days. Good deal finding someone to make the adapter, the more direct bolt up the better! I'm sure there is a clutch plate out there if you can find it. I worked at CarQuest and had access to catalogs with pictures and specs when I put the T-5 in mine. I think that OD ratio with your rear end gearing will be good. No matter what you will be better off then you were.

I completely agree, many people wouldn't know how to start the truck with a pedal.



Clutch disc will be made for me by a shop in Tx, which Dave recommends. Dave is at Vintage Metalworks and is the guy who will make the adapter.




I agree, can't really make it worse.

This is the tail shaft when sending it up to Washington, I tried to use some brake cleaner to no avail:



And here's what it looks like coming out of Dan's parts cleaner. Not sure if he'll paint it or not.

Tail shaft is done and on it's way back to me.

XLNT turn around time, IMO.

Made only a little bit of progress, works has me up to my neck in problems...

Tail shaft should be here tomorrow, got a notice from UPS that it will arrive tomorrow.

I saw someone saying they passed $2k in doing a T5 conversion, and I started to add things up, with a rebuild kit, which I think I should do at this point, I'm up to about $1275. That's only the trans, and I bought the trans for $350 ($200 for adapter plate, $300 for tail shaft conversion w/tax/ship, and $125 for a new clutch disc I will need to get). I have another $200 in the rear axle, $50 in the driveshaft, and let's not forget about $300 for the ring/pinion. The rebuild kit for the WC is $300, unlike the NWC which is about $100. Still, I feel the WC is the better transmission. In this regard I would still have $975 into the transmission if I didn't rebuild it, and truth be told, if I rebuild this T5, I will most likely last the rest of my life, or however long I have my '46. I might as well do it right.

The bottom line is that this will be one of the best improvements I can do to the '46 after it's all said and done. At least in the sense of making it drive able on the highways without dropping a V8 in it, an auto trans, and a new front clip, etc...that's not what I'm after.

EDIT: Oddly, the manager for Transparts Wharehouse, located in Redding, CA. They offer a WC rebuild kit that has Japanese Koyo, SKF or Nachi. The other thing I liked was that they use the OE Tremec synchros, those are the newer carbon fiber lined synchros which are supposed to be superior to all others. Includes all parts, including the spring clip that holds the reverse mechanism to the side of the case (inside that rounded torque head that doesn't come out).

Transparts Wharhouse WC rebuilt kit

You can not focus on the money. It's the improvement to your '46 and all the fun you are having that counts. Money is just the means to an end.

It's not about the money, but I'm glad I have the money at the moment to get all these parts. Some I had, but still, I had to buy them and they came out of my pocket at some point, but it's all moot...it's a hobby, we don't really need to justify our hobbies, they put smiles on our faces!

I mentioned before, I was in love with a '42 with dual intake Fenton, upgraded rear end, 235 like most all upgrade to, et al. I could have gotten it for $23k, but out of work at the time and no equity line to leverage.

When I did have cash I was able to pick this one up for $8k, ended up about $9k with shipping. I don't feel bad about dropping $2k into this, I knew when I bought it that it could potentially cost me more than $23k to get in the condition the other one was in, but not even sure I want to do that with this one...I like the patina. As you elude to, it's mostly about the journey. I'm just making it more convenient to drive. Still not sure what I'll do about navigation and/or radio, but I see some CarPlay panels that looks promising. I could use my phone like I do now, but I gotta have tunes while I drive, and a larger panel for navigation would be really nice. The rest is fine with me, steering wheel, brake, gas...and clutch/shifter.

EDIT: in case anyone is wonder, this is Alloy Specialties website:

http://t56cablespeedometer.com/

And here's a couple pics of her work, I converted these to 480x640 THUMBNAILS so I could post here. Posting images here is pathetic at best.

As a bonus, the tail shaft came back from Alloy Specialties in Washington. Can say enough good about them, this tail shaft was filthy and the grease laughed at brake cleaner. Albeit, I didn't give too much elbow grease, it was apparent it wasn't coming off easily.

Now this is completely prepped sans some paint. Luckily the main case wasn't nearly as dirty, that must have gotten cleaned when someone was in this T5 originally, there's a lot of RTV Silicone creeping out the seams...

I'd post pics, but after resizing 3 times, finally down to 600x800, I give up. Most all software I've used scales by resolution not size. Different images with different colors are different sizes, it just all depends on how it compresses. After resizing 4 pics 3 times, I give up, maybe you need to scale to 640x480, that's the resolution monitors were about 30 years ago...around the same time we were using 1200 baud modems...

Got this WC rebuild kit today from Transparts Wharehouse, up in Redding, CA.

Despite the slathering of USA, the bearings are Japanese Koyo bearings, and one of the reasons I bought this kit.

I suspect other people get this same kit, it does have Tremec synchros, the newer style with carbon fiber lining, opposed to the older style that looks like auto trans liner. This would only matter on a WC T5, as the NWC uses brass synchros. WC T5 uses a brass synchro on 5th/Reverse.

Tom, saw your roadster build over on the H.A.M.B., and replied to you, but was curious about the Rust Doctor. As I mentioned over there, I did buy a quart of Rust Doctor and a quart of Grease Doctor, they had a package discount.

I'm going to use that on the '55 Series 2 axle.

I use Evaporust but have been looking for something I don't need to immerse the steel in, and this stuff looks like just the ticket.

I really like it! I have fussed with all kinds of rust products. For things you can dip or soak my favorite is citric acid and water. It is cheap and environmentally friendly. I built a large tank with wood beams and a big plastic sheet and soaked my frame, front axle, drums, backing plates, steering parts,......I had tried sand blasting with a kit I got for my pressure washer. It worked pretty well but messy. I should have done it farther from the shop. Because of my laziness and not being satisfied a lot of it sat out and re-rusted, just light flash rust. So I put the Rust Doctor over that. Where there was rust it turned into a nice solid black coating that I have hammered on and you can weld through. Where there was little or no rust it left a light to clear acrylic primer. I have left a lot of it out and it looks as good as the day I coated it. Just trying to see what t really does. I'll still paint it when it is time.
The rust Doctor likes a surface with smooth rust, brush the loose flakes off. A lot of chassis parts are just what it likes. Eventually all my body panels will get Citric acid and Rust Doctor. The rust Doctor covers way more area than I expected. My frame took about a pint! No more Evaporust for me citric acid does as well and is cheap. It will not remove grease like the citric hand cleaners but won't hurt paint or plating except for zinc.

Gotta' get back on the roadster! Time just slips away while trying to keep this place running.

As a matter of fact, I use that to remove the blue coating off 1095 spring steel, you can usually find it at home brew shops, they use it for fermenting. I get similar results with vinegar.

I would love to have a pressure washer, like 5000 psi.



Yeah, Evaporust seems similar in price, but I like how this will allow you to brush on, close up a container and save it. Although Evaporust can be used over and over, it's got a lot of rust and other crap it removed.



I hear 'ya, I have a house to build...

I found a couple of parts I had left I had left in a can of Evaporust and forgotten, The liquid had evaporated and left the rust & crud, Just a big black flat hunk it the bottom of the can. I was able to bust out the parts but they were still rusty? I need to learn to follow directions. I think my wife bought me a T-shirt that says that.

Are you coming to the convention in Carson City in September?

You and me both, and I think my wife bought me a shirt that says it also, or maybe the kids...



No, unfortunately I won't be making it. Several of the local folks were encouraging me to go, but they said there's no tool swapmeet going on, and I don't think I can get my truck drive able to Carson City, 80 is a tough grade...probably won't have it in overdrive when I do make the trip over your way. I'm not in it for the dinner, I'd more be in it to meet others like you. We will most likely meet at some point as we're close, but this year is probably not it.

To continue on with my project, I used my little mapp torch to get this stubborn bolt out, probably red loctite, not sure. I took it to about 400 F. according to my thermal temp. Came out fairly easy, using a vice grips. Can probably reuse it, may get a matching one like the others.



Got it opened and counted the important teeth. The counter shaft 4th gear is a 37 as I had hoped, and my input shaft is in fact 21 tooth, so my OD is .86, the most important, and my 1st is is better also. I have a 32 tooth on the main shaft for 1st gear.



And finally, everything is in really nice condition, pad have just some slight wear on them, but it's all being replaced as I rebuild this.

"I'd post pics, but after resizing 3 times, finally down to 600x800, I give up. Most all software I've used scales by resolution not size. Different images with different colors are different sizes, it just all depends on how it compresses. After resizing 4 pics 3 times, I give up, maybe you need to scale to 640x480, that's the resolution monitors were about 30 years ago...around the same time we were using 1200 baud modems... whistle"

Several years ago this site was alive with discussion and pictures of posts & projects. The people who "run" things have chosen to fund a "news letter" that can not answer questions in a timely way and and support a FaceBook page that can not be searched for meaningful information. They wonder why membership is a problem. This used to be the source for inline engine information for many makes.

Well, if they want to continue to exist, they will need to adapt to the times. stock49 put some of the newsletter scans up as PDFs, that was very smart, that's the type of stuff they should do...don't spend money mailing stuff out, I used to do that 35 years ago when I ran computer user groups. Nowadays everyone has a smart phone, literally most everyone. I know there are some that don't, but at this point it's not something the club should worry about. Focus on the Internet.

They outta quit doing hard copy, only post PDF and build these forums and create their own piece of the web, rather than using Facebook, that will just not work out in the end, IMO. I don't like to use FB myself, it's not a free platform.

So I've started 2 EFFin sets of images, one for the real world, and one set of small 640x480 for the Inliner's forum, which is literally VGA resolution we used on computers 35 years ago...not sure how long I'll be doing that though...at some point the Inliners will get written off.

In my opinion the only reason this website exists now is because of the things Stock49 has been able to patch up and improve. This should be discussed at the convention but I doubt if it will be. There is a treasure trove if inline information hidden here that is far to difficult to retrieve. Posting pictures, even with the newer system, is just too time consuming. That is why my build thread is on the HAMB. I tried here and on another site and the HAMB is so easy.

By the way I don't have a smart phone, my pockets aren't big enough. I had one for two days and took it back. I have a little Koycera flip phone that the oilfield workers used. It has a special old android system that can not be updated but it does all I need plus it is my internet connection with a mobil hot spot that is far better than Hughesnet. It will also do a lot of things I don't want to do.

I sent him a PM, but he hasn't read it in a few days.



Too bad as I think it's an important part of their future.



Agree again, and Stovebolt is easier also, they will allow images up to 5mb in size and you can post 5 per message. HAMB also, it's way easier to post pictures.



But you use a computer, know how to post pictures and do it regularly. Look, it's not too fun to surf on a phone, but it's convenient and most people can get a PDF on their phone if they have to. This all reminds me of a user group I ran in L.A. during the late 80s. The treasurer took about $5k of membership money and there was really nothing we could do about it. Police said there was nothing they could do, as she was given access to the bank account.

After that I never charged a membership for a user group, EVER. And I ran several groups, one in L.A. with IBM, and one with Sun Microsystems in the Bay area, but have never charged money as a membership fee after that. I have always made it free after that lady ran off with our cash. I hope karma got her and caused more disruption in her life than she could imagine.

That said, the writing is on the wall, there's no future in mailing hard copies to members, too much cost and work. The Internet is our future for better or worse, it's not something that the Inliners can solve, the world has already made that decision.

Moving along, input shaft is off. Bearing cover and bolts were really rusty, rust dust was falling out as I took the bolts out. Didn't use an impact in case that would strip the threads, so used a bit breaker to loosen them. I saw on a video it's not a great idea to use the impact wrench.

Needle bearings were dry, but that should be expected as they normally get lubrication from the ATF, AFAIK.

All the input shaft parts:



Main case ready for a face plant on my bench as soon as I clean space for it.



I realized there is no rush to get this done, I really want to do this right, paint the outside of the main case, top cover and tail shaft, and make sure I put everything back together correctly. Easy to not press a bearing or gear far enough.

The citric acid you can get at many pool supply places. Or you can get it off Amazon.??

Larry, I think I have a couple pounds of it, that should last me a while...I got it off either Ebay or Amazon, can't remember, just that when I was looking for it the most common was homebrew supply shops.

Got a spot cleaned on the bench and got the input shaftless T5 face planted on the bench.



Then I used a magnet to remove the ball bearing.



Used an old Huck cylinder to support the case while I drove the pin out of the 5th/reverse fork.



Then I needed to go up and get some ring pliers, mine were too big.

I was a tad surprised, HD had a pair of Channel Locks that worked perfectly, made in the USA, has a switch to change from in or out.



And now I'm stuck without a T50 to remove the counter shaft retaining plate.

You can get citric acid at the grocery store. It has so many uses it is east to find.

Good to see your progress. I'm not taking ANYTHING else apart until I put some things back together.

Here's what I believe I have gear wise in my T5.


4th-3rd-2nd-1st--5th
37---32---24---14---51 counter shaft
21---27---31---32---25 main shaft

1----1.48-2.27-4.03-0.86




I have like 2 pounds of it. I mentioned to you, I use it to remove the bluing from 1095 spring steel when I make handsaws.



Thanks, I'm not a very fast wrench, but like to do things right. I'm not taking anything else apart until I get a T50 in the morning.

Upon recommendation from Beater on another fora, I'm going to use this on my '55 axle.

I hope it works as well for you as it did for me.

Me too!

It's an interesting concept, turning the rust into black magnetite, it seems to be able to contain it. It almost seems too good to be true, I mean, so little elbow grease?

Moving stuff in and around the shop today so I can bring home the chassis table we built at Bruce;s place. I found a lot more parts to de-rust.

Beater,

That sounds pretty cool, is that a long table that you can put the chassis on to work up higher? I've seen people using rotisseries made for chassis.

Someday I hope I can have a lift in my garage. Gets old crawling around under a car/truck on jack stands...Bruce seemed to help you out a bunch on that project, it's a shame that it ends so quick like that...I'm sure it's still a shock to 'ya.

I'll be honest, I never really looked at too many roadsters, but that Chevy body is so much cooler than any of the Fords. That body really has nice lines on it. That's a damn cool project...just not sure I'm ready for something like that yet.

To kind of keep on track, here's the progress I've made recently...

I used a bearing/race set to remove the front counter shaft race out of the case, a few swift wacks popped it out of there. The bearings and races are Timken that were in here, I'm replacing with Koyo, if that matters. I'm ok with that as Timken is not all made in the U.S. anymore, and quality is going into the toilet. I recently got Timken seals made in China.



I cleaned up the surfaces with my 2" scotch brite pad in a cordless drill.



I was able to tear the case down without a press, so far. But I will need to use my press to get the gears and bearings off the counter and main shafts both. The way I got the counter shaft out was like this...once the rear race was out I could pull the counter shaft up by sliding it over the idler, just enough to raise the rear bearing enough that I could get a bearing splitter under it, and was able to use 2 jaws on bearing puller to barely get under the bearing splitter in 2 of the recesses of the case. Then I held the center rod as I used my cordless impact wrench to pop it off. I will need to destroy the front bearing to get it off, no other way to do that, but so far all parts removed intact.



I still need to clean the outside of the case, and I'm going to go up to the auto parts store and get some of the Dupli-Color primer.

PS - this is still too difficult to resize the pics, go into the photo library, upload the pics, create a post and use those links. We must make it easier to use these Inliners International Forums.

Got some self etching primer for aluminum to go along with the enamel with ceramic engine paint, good for 500 degrees. This is for the T5.

This is what is working for me to clean the outside of the case. These small brass wire brushes on 1/8" shank can be bought by the dozen on Ebay for a few bucks for a dozen. They can get in the tight corners of the recesses on the case, where the grease hides. Not perfect as it's pretty dusty, I wear a paint mask and should get my 3M for this, but I have these in my workshop.

Using denatured alcohol in a Milwaukee Sure Shot and using CLP for some stuff. I know that won't harm aluminum as the military uses it on AR receivers. It's a cleaner, lubricant and penetrant. Not my favorite odor, but beats Ballistrol which I have and have used...odor is brutal, IMO. Actually I have Frog Lube that is also used on ARs, and I think it has a cleaner.

Anyway, here's an example of how the top cover came out on the outside, I went over this a couple times and the small brass wire wheel gets into those small corners in the tabs and such, that's the hard area for me to get with a scotch brite.

Looks good to me. Thanks for showing what is working for you!

Here's a better pic of the small brass wire brushes I mentioned, you can get them on Ebay for like $3 for a dozen. I used about 4 or 5 of them.



Then I pulled the speedo bullet out.



This is how the case is before spritzing the self etching primer.



EDIT: Beater, I was curious, my plan has been to paint the case before I reassemble everything, but I have a guy telling me to paint it after assembly. What would you do, paint before or after? Seems to me that if you wait, the shafts are in place, making it a pita to primer and paint. Also if I was to paint after assembly wouldn't the bolt heads be painted also unless I masked them off? That seems like a sour note to me... What say ye?

I don't think it matters, it's depends on the look you want. I'd probably end up having to repaint it after I wrecked the the paint putting it back together and that paint probably wouldn't stick because I would have gotten dirt and oil all over it with my greasy hands.

I was looking at some of the pieces I left out after using the Rust Doctor and I see some little places I missed showing rust. A few places on the frame didn't seam to get a good coat. I'll just hit those spots again. I plan to paint it all anyway. I still like it a lot.

Yeah, I know a lot of people don't paint them, so that's a possibility even though I have the paint, I'll use it for other stuff most likely. I'm gonna ponder on it as I go drain and look at the axle, chip some grease and other old stuff off and assess the situation.



I hope to get at least some of it applied, but need to get the grease and excess rust taken off.

Now to change up a bit, arrrrrggggghhhhhh! The smell of old rancid organic oil after opening from being closed up!

Ok, got the drums off, and got the rear diff caps off, but maybe I need to remove the front of the diff cover on the front to get to a pin so I can remove the spider gears. Here's shots from the rear, maybe I didn't need to remove these caps?

I still get an error, let me resize...stock49, almost certain problem is that all images don't compress to 720x960 and stay under 400k, so it gives an error on size.



I will take the front diff cover off tomorrow and hopefully get all of this apart, so I can get the axle all cleaned and possibly get the ring/pinion in place. I just got back from a run up to Sacramento to buy a 10HP motor from a guy.