Inliners International Forums General Discussion Engines 261 Intake/Exhaust Advice Needed

Howdy all. It's been a long time since I've posted here. I'm in need of some advice.

I sold an intake and exhaust manifold on ebay a couple weeks ago. I pulled them off of a good running 261 out of a 61 chevy truck about 20 years ago. The manifold was not leaking at the time it was pulled, but just in case I checked them over very closely for any signs of cracking or severe warpage before listing them for sale.

My buyer now wants to return the manifold as being unusable because it is warped. The problems that I see is that he took it to a machinist to have it planed. I will post the exchange we've had through ebay messages thus far.

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Buyer: Manifold has been machines and is leaking

Me: So you had it planed at a machine shop, installed it, and now it leaks?

Buyer: Had it planned at a machine shop. Have no idea if it leaked before but it is now installed on my vehicle and must have a crack somewhere as my truck won't hold an idle

Me: Did you separate the intake from the exhaust and replace the gasket between them?

5 Days Later

Buyer: Ok hadn't had time to get to his again. Yes replaced the intake to exhaust gasket & all others. Seems to be warped as when I tried to use the alignment cups, everything was out of whack except the rear two connections. Into this thing for the cost, the shipping and the machine at this point and it shooting smoke out of 4/6 ports.

Me: Your first complaint was that the vehicle wouldn't hold an idle so you asserted that the manifold must be cracked. At some point, you took it apart to replace the mating gasket. My assumption is that you were able to inspect the intake (the only part that would affect idle) for cracks at that point, and I assume you found none, and did this before you had it worked on. Your latest issue does not mention that problem, so I assume your vehicle is idling now. It seems your main complaint now is that the exhaust manifold is leaking along the head. You said you took the manifolds to a machinist to have them planed. I would hope that you changed the gasket and reassembled the manifold prior to having them planed because that's the only way they could be true upon installation. If you changed the gasket after machining then you'd have created problems by upsetting the planing or misaligning the manifolds. I'll assume you did it in the correct order of operations for the sake of argument. If they are now warped, then the machinist did not do his job, because the purpose of planing is to correct warping, if it is within specifications. If it were too warped to plane when I sent it to you, then the machinist should have told you the core was scrap, and refused to cut it. Assuming it was in spec when he got it, if indeed it is warped now after machining then you either got it too hot after machining, or it wasn't flat when you left the machine shop, and the machinist did not do his job correctly. I'm really not sure what I can do other than offer advice at this point. Your assertions of cracking (before) and warping (now) are both things that could have been checked for, spotted, and therefore should have been addressed before other people worked on the parts. I can't be held responsible for the quality of workmanship at a machine shop. He could have over cut (alignment rings too deep) or cut crooked (alignment rings won't align) and both could cause leaks.

Buyer All of that sounds great but the fact remains: I've had this truck for quite a few years now, worked on it throughout and have replaced the original manifold and had no issues until now. I followed the proper order of operations, the truck wasn't able to breath. I ordered the rings and reinstalled, fired again and then contacted you. initially installing it without alignment ringsI've used this machinist before with great results, however I've never purchased parts from you. See where I'm at? Also the purpose of planing is to true the manifold for the sake of mating surfaces. That corrects warping as it appears on the flats of the manifold, planing does not correct the issue of warping in the port alignment. We both know that. Also my initial assumption was a crack and after reconnection and an attempt at realignment, I found that the vehicle would hold idle and there was a warping issue

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After that last exchange is when he did the formal return request... I have not responded yet.

So my problem is this. I've had dozens of these manifolds planed over the years and I've never had an issue with 'port alignment' being off after planing. It's either within tolerance to plane or it's not. I can't see how any of what he's asserting makes any sense. First it 'must be cracked' and now it's warped after having it planed.

I feel like I sent him a good manifold and he's now holding my feet to the fire for either not knowing how to properly install the manifolds, or a machinist not doing their job right. It wouldn't be the first time a machinist got it wrong. I've seen that happen a few times as well.

So set me straight here. Am I out of line or should I fight this with ebay? Thanks for any insight. I do appreciate it.

Here is the auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/291879473839?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1559.l2649

Ask him how much it was planed and if he is using the intake port alignment rings.

I will see if I can find out how much it was planed but
scavenging his quotes from above, he said:

'initially installing it without alignment rings'

Then:

Seems to be warped as when I tried to use the alignment cups, everything was out of whack except the rear two connections...and it shooting smoke out of 4/6 ports.

and:

I ordered the rings and reinstalled...Also my initial assumption was a crack and after reconnection and an attempt at realignment, I found that the vehicle would hold idle and there was a warping issue

How much it was planed is pretty critical because of the alignment rings. The head and intake have the pockets cut into them only so deep to hold these rings, and excessive milling or planing will make the ring bottom out and hold the flange surface on the intake away from the head keeping it from sealing against the gasket. If it was planed more than .030", it could be very close if not beyond what the limit of the pockets depth is in the intake ports given the much wider machining tolerances of 60 years ago. So if the machine shop inadvertently planed more than needed for good measure, they may have created the issue themselves and not have realized it.

I absolutely agree. I mentioned in my reply that if the machine shop cut too much off that the alignment rings would be too deep for the pockets, and that would cause leaks. In reality I'm still stumped as to why he had it planed when he didn't know if leaked. I checked it before I listed it and it showed no signs of warping...

I spent a little time on the phone with ebay customer service and they reviewed our correspondence. They said that since he had already had the manifold physically altered that I would not be required to accept his return request. The only thing I have to be wary of is that he would still be able to leave me negative feedback. So I have to play extra nice so that I have strong appeal case to have that reversed if he does decide to leave negative feedback.

Here was my response to his return request:

Me: I see that you have requested a return on the manifolds. I just spent some time on the phone with ebay customer service. They reviewed our correspondence and they determined that since you had the manifold planed, which constitutes a physical alteration by removal of metal, that I am not required to accept your return request. I can't be held repsonsible for the work of the machinist. His good past performance is not a gaurantee of good future results.

I'm more than happy to continue to work with you on getting the manifold installed successfully. At this point I'm not inclined to offer a refund. I have dealt with dozens of these manifolds over the years. My father owned a very successful exhaust business for over 50 years and we specialiized in inline engines. I have never had an issue like you are describing. If a manifold can be planed, it can be installed without leaking. If it is warped, it is because the machinist did not do his job, or it's gotten too hot after an improper installation. I spoke with my father about the issue and he concurs. He's is 80 now and has dealt with hundreds of them since starting mechanic work as a teenager in the early 1950's.

It is very easy to tell if the manifold is warped, and we both know how to do that with a straight edge, a good flat welding table,or a heavy piece of flat glass. Your assertion of 'port alignment' doesn't hold water in this situation. If it were warped badly enough that the ports wouldn't align, then any machinist worth his salt would never have cut it to begin with.

There is one way you can possibly get it to align. I would much rather you get a good working manifold than take this any further down a negative road with me. Either the manifold was cut correctly and you just need a little help installing it ( they can be tricky ) or the machinist needs to fix his work.

I have one more trick that has worked for me in the past getting them to mount up. Let me know your thoughts.

Some may disagree, but my thought on withholding the installation advice at this point is that I'm hoping to bait him into reopening the dialogue, which will bolster my case that I'm doing everything I can to help with the problem, short of just caving and giving him his money back for his mistake. If he is hell bent on escalating this to a full blown dispute then I don't feel like being helpful up front. I also think there is a possibility that this whole thing is concocted because of buyers remorse. Maybe he decided he didn't want a stock setup after the fact and created this issue just to recoup his investment at my expense. Maybe far fetched but it's within the realm of possibility.

FYI, here's what I plan on sending him as advice on installation if he chooses to respond in a civil manner:

ASSUMING MANIFOLD IS SERVICEABLE:

1) Disassemble, inspect, clean, and reassemble with new, high quality mating gasket.

2) Plane mating surfaces true. Install new studs as necessary.

3) Upon installation, loosen bolts that mate intake and exhaust so the two are not rigidly mated.

4) Clean all mounting bolts, studs, nuts thoroughly before starting. Chase threads with a proper die and use a bit of anti seize on newly cleaned and chased threads to aide in ease of installation.

5)Mount assembly to head starting all bolts in the head by hand (not with a wrench or ratchet as this can encourage cross threading ) generally working from the center port toward the ends. Tighten clamping bolts and end bolts finger tight. Then, and only then, snug the mating bolts back up.

6)Put initial cold torque on head bolts according to the manual, and then initial cold torque on the mating bolts.

7) Run vehicle, do secondary torque after it's warmed up.

If this sequence does not work, then the machine work is most likely the culprit.


We will see if he's interested in solving the problem or just wants a confrontation. I'll just try to play nice so that I have shot at appealing the negative feedback should he leave it.

You are making this too difficult. You did not agree to sell the manifold on the condition that the manifold would work properly after the buyer took it apart and began modifying it from the as sold condition. I would reject the request on that basis. Heaven knows what all was actually done to the manifold.

I agree. He bought the manifold and modified it, then contacted you with a complaint. He owns the scrap iron now.

Just FYI, because he did the return request stating that the manifold was defective or did not work, ebay does not give me the option to outright deny his request. I have to either accept it, offer a partial refund, or put it in dispute. ebay frowns upon you not at least attempting to work it out with the buyer. So that's what I tried to do. I called them again today to follow up because he never responded to my informal declining his request for refund, but offer of help installing or figuring out the problem. The woman on the phone reviewed the messages, said she agreed that he was in the wrong, opened a dispute for me, and an hour later I had a message saying that ebay found in my favor because he physically modified it without my permissions and said in one message 'I have no idea if it leaked before' which told them he never checked the condition before deciding to machine the part. They also said that because they found in my favor, my seller feedback cannot be affected and any feedback he leaves for me will be removed. So I'm in the clear! Thanks everyone for your insight on this. I never thought I'd see the day that ebay would actually back a seller. Ever since they took our ability to leave feedback on buyers it's been a rocky down hill slope... So this was an unexpected pleasant surprise.

Glad it worked out in your favor. It sounds like this guy and his machinist need to find something else to do. As mentioned above the alignment rings are probably the problem. Easy fix unless the intake and exhaust were surfaced separately.

Welcome to the exciting world of selling old truck parts Josh.

Now you know what I have been going through for 35 years now when it comes to selling used parts.

I have a pile of over 50 good used intake & exhaust manifolds but.... it ain't worth the time or trouble trying to sell them.

Sad to say but.... they will all be heading to the scrap man so he can ship them to China & they can melt them down make fresh Fenton headers outta them.