Inliners International Forums General Discussion AMC/JEEP Flathead 195 Full Flow oil conversion?

Anyone know about converting the Rambler 195.6 Flathead into full oil flow? Would like to get rid of the factory bypass oil filter system and make it a full flow for better oil cleaning. Thanks for any and all help in advance. Mike

We have a member here, Tom Jennings, who is very knowledgeable regarding AMC/ Rambler motors. Try to send him a PM if he doesn't answer. A recent post from him can be found in the section titled "Electrical"...Pertronix Install" Click on his name and it will bring up an option to PM him.

Regards:
Paul..aka Xerxes

Thank Paul for the help.

Powerflyte:

You should have a PM from me about another source of information.

Thanks:
Paul...aka xerxes

Hi all,

I was offline for some months (no good reason!) so I just saw this post. I replied in a message to powerflyte but I thougt Id post here on the forum too since it's nothing personal.



Yes! In fact it's something I've given a lot of thought to.

And hey, post here somewhere about your project! There's few enough Nashcans in here! That sounds like a fun project.

1964 up 195.6's came with an oil pump with filter attached -- the catch is, it doesn't clear the suspension pivots on the bathtub and breadbox cars. Here's a pic of a junk one someone gave me: http://wps.com/AMC/1963-Rambler-American/Nash-195.6OHV-engine/Oil-pump/index.html

HOWEVER -- if you remove the adapter, there's two holes (filter in and out) that can be tapped for fittings, run 90 degrees off the pump with about a foot of hose to a remote filter.

You'd have to fill the filter with oil at every change, else the motor will run dry til the pump fills it. Not good for grandma's daily driver, fine for us.

I may see if I can hack a non-filter pump to do this. It would be simple to make a new pump top plate since it's just flat with holes and groove (I have a vertical mill). A ported "regular" pump might need the pump outlet hole blocked off (sheet copper gasket) and the oil filter outlet feed the main gallery directly.

I plan on completing this by March.

Thanks Tom for the help. I will try and get some pictures on the site when I have time. My Flathead Rambler is going to be punched out to 203 cid and I am running a 54 Dual Powerflyte head with twin Carter YF's. Camshaft is being reground by Lunati Cams right now and the block is going in next week for bigger valves and new seats. After that it is off to a race engine shop that is going to balance the bottom end and do some port work to the block and gasket match the head. Have a custome header system that will be 3 into one system. I am shooting for about 150 HP if I can get it. With a 3:78 axal and 3 speed with overdrive I think it should get up and go pretty well. I will try and put a picture into this responce I hope it works.

Oooh this sounds like fun! What are you having done to the cam? I've got one "rebuilt" cam (the one that came-with my NORS eBay shortblock...) but I'm thinking some attention here might be worth it.

What timing are you going with? Any surface treatments/polishing of lobes and lifters?

I'm a bit concerned about break-in, the "zinc problem". The poop seems to be, once broken in the lack of zinc/ZDDP in oil doesn't seem to matter much if at all. I've had no troubles in our three AMC six flat tappet motors, and one has 250K miles on the bottom end and pistons (it ran LPG for 20 years).

But for my "new" motor I'm gonna use zinc assembly lube on the cam, and GM zinc additive in the oil. I guess, unless someone has a better idea.

Tom, i will have some spec numbers back from Lunati on Monday. I will pass on what they recommend so maybe others can use the information. I would post some pictures but not sure how to get them onto the site? tried before but nothing happened. Any ideas?

I'd love to see the specs!

You can start a free account at flickr.com or picasa.com. Picasa might be easier, if you don't mind Google rummaging around in your computer and finding pictures. Picasa you just click some thing lext to the image in the Picasa program and it uploads.

Then post a link to the picture.

If you get stuck email me the pic, if it's AMC specific and you don't mind, I can put it on my site (wps.com/AMC) and give you the link.

Thanks again Tom, I will rty the posting and if it doesn't work out I will send them on to you if you want them. Lunati called back and they are not quite done with the specs. As soon as I know I will pass the information on. Maybe some other people would be interested in have a cam done for their Flathead six. It could open a whole new area for flathead users to go to for additional performance in their cars.

Doug Galvin's AMC parts now sells an "RV" regrind for the 195.6 OHV, and I think the flathead. I bought one. On SCDynoSim it looks pretty good; about 15% more torque below 3000 and the HP peak drops to 4000-ish.

I can't afford to build a high-rpm engine here so this is a good solution for me. I'll let you know how it works out.

Camshaft is being reground by Lunati Cams right now
Obviously, this is limited by your original lobe size, tappet width and their library of profiles. However: typically, SV engines need far more intake than exhaust duration, perhaps 20-40° nominal (certainly not symmetrical), and as much lift as you can get. Nominal duration: intake not above 280° or so. The LSA will depend on how hot the intake's .050" is, no more than 110°.

the block is going in next week for bigger valves and new seats.
The original exhaust valves may be (nearly) big enough since they were sized for an engine with late exhaust valve opening to get the most from the work cycle. I wouldn't go any bigger than what you need to clean up the seats + 1/16".
Th intake should be bigger, the exact size will depend on the maximum throat diameter before you hit water, but 1/4" larger is common. You should not need a seat insert here. Not sure of your dims, but the Chevy 235 intake valve is a useful start since you need a long valve: 6.36" long, 11/32" stem, 1-7/8" head (reduce as needed), excellent head shape for flow.
If the guides are gone, using inserts and reducing the intake stem size to 5/16" helps.

Important: get the best harmonic damper you can afford, at least a quality rebuild on the stocker. Don't wait to "see how it runs" before doing this - it may not still be there.

I just recieved my cam back from Lunati and here is what the spec sheet says.
Exh closes 2degrees ATDC, open 40 degrees BBDC
Intake opens 2 degrees BTDC, closes 40 degrees ABDC
Timimg at .050 Tappet lift 222 degrees intake and exhaust
Advertised Duration 260 degrees intake and exhaust
Lobe seperation 109
Fram what I can tell my original lift was .340 and with the new grind it calculates out to .315 with a .012 valve adjustment. Will not if the lift is correct untill I get it back into the block and use the dial indicator to check Block is going to shop tomorrow and Iwill have the valve size questions in a week or so. More information to follow as it comes in. Thanks for the help. Mike

re: oil pump -- I didn't disappear, things just cost more and take longer!

I worked out all the full-flow oil pump mods, and they all worked out OK, I should be starting up the new motor this weekend if I finish all the trivia (wiring, etc).

I've got a lot of pictures and documentation coming, it will take a while, and I'm sure you wanna wait until it's actually running! But here's a teaser picture for now...


http://wps.com/temp/assy1.JPG

195.6 OHV, but same difference. I made a new top cover plate for the pump. It's in two pieces for easy construction; 1/4" base drilled for the well that accomodates the end of the driven shaft, and a top plate (1/4") welded so that the 3/8" pipe threaded hole had enough threads. I milled it flat (warp from welding) then ground flat with 80-grit wet or dry then polished. Milled and filed and plastigage'd gear clearance to .001" - .002" (PITA to get closer) -- with stock parts gear end clearance was .009"! I guess that's the 50's for you :-)

Oil filter is some small BMW unit -- 20PSI bypass, anti-drainback.

I'll let you know if it works!

OK! I thought I'd never get this done... here's the page for the full-flow oiling system for the Rambler 195.6 engine I did. Just did the first oil change. Still breaking in the engine but it's working out fine.

http://wps.com/AMC/195.6OHV/Oil%20pump%20mods/

The "parent" page on the full engine build will be done "soon" (really though, I'm actually working on it now) and I'll post it on this board somewhere when it's close to done.

Just a note -- I had oil pump troubles -- gear welded itself to the cover and sheared the drive gear! Problem appears to be that my "blueprinting" went too far, I made clearances far too tight.

At the moment I have a stock pump in there.

Also, tightening clearances with the goal of improving volume and pressure is a waste of time. I did a Before and After -- with the blueprinted pump I had 60psi at idle, and it rose to 80psi at speed. With the stock pump I have 40psi at idle, 60psi at speed. Both with the same relief valve!

60psi and up means the bypass valve is dumping pump oil into the pan. 80psi at speed (2000+) means that the pump was overwhelming the relief valve! That's a waste of energy and added stress.

The stock pump has about .015" total gear-to-cover clearance; I'd reduced it to .002". Next weekend I'm putting the full-flow cover back onto a stock (not milled for reduced clearance) pump.

ANd instead of drilling, tapping and plugging the stock pump outlet, I'm gonna make a steel gasket minus that hole. I don't know why I didn't think of that earlier. I have a clean block and camshaft and pump so I can check that the steel gasket won't harm gear mesh.

News at 11.